When I was in high school, I went to the Bronx High School of Science.
Now that brings back some memories... Lived on Webb Avenue for many years, and had our fellowship there for many years which is walking distance to the school. Ah... those good old days, long long time ago.
I'm thinking of each time you interpret tongues or door to door harassment. You have to push past the discomfort, every single time. Or teaching at fellowship, you're pushing your mind into a mold as you do it. Leadership has to tell you if there were results or not, because you never see any that mean anything. That uncomfortable feeling becomes normal. Always uncomfortable and stressful, but familiar and normal.
It's been said many, many times at the GSC, but I'll say it again- everyone's twi experience was different. When and where I went, "teaching at fellowship," for about 1/3 of us, was something quite comfortable. (Not everyone is comfortable teaching any group of any size.) We didn't have someone looming over our shoulders, and there was no uncomfortable feeling. We also experienced regular growth WITHOUT GOING DOOR TO DOOR.
The transition from high pressure sales to belonging . . . TWI is not a shared interest in PFAL. TWIG Fellowship is not a support group.
Both may be true, but I feel a piece is missing at the moment.
The pieces that are missing are that there were different eras. In the earlier days, there was more of a sense of belonging, and less high pressure sales. I hear that the 70s/early 80s were a lot more of the former and a lot less of the latter. By the end of the 1980s, lcm had drawn his line in the sand and demanded that twi'ers follow him blindly. THAT marked a huge difference, because 80% of the people got up and left- joining the local leadership who refused to follow lcm blindly and were kicked out. A few years after that, the high pressure sales really cranked up at twi.
People who like belonging don't like freedom so much.
Bolshevik,
you've said you studied the "hard sciences"- which means you haven't studied the SOCIAL sciences, like Psychology and Sociology. I know that, in some circles, people who work in the hard sciences don't think much of the social sciences, but each has their place. Sociology, for example, isn't an entire field you can pick up in an afternoon reading the newspaper.
Ever consider that you don't know the fields you've never studied?
I'd hardly think to educate you on the hard sciences- but you're supposing you understand group movements, group cohesion, etc, having never studied them- and are perfectly happy to suppose you understand them and we don't. Some of us have actually studied them.
Being a CONTINUOUS outsider doesn't do well for one's mental health. If you're not even happy belonging to your nuclear family (wife, kids) or your social circle (buddies you hang out with) , you're shutting yourself out of vital parts of life. If all you could say about family or friends is that those who enjoy being part of a family or hanging out with friends is that you don't because you prefer "freedom" and those who do enjoy them "don't like freedom so much", then this messageboard really is the least of your problems.
I remember taking a "Belonging" course as a teacher and it made me uneasy. Students need to "belong"? That's stupid. I get they hate learning . . Wait, why are they here?
Ouch. A teacher who can't relate to students and doesn't understand them. "I get they hate learning."
On 5/26/2022 at 10:31 PM, Bolshevik said:
PFAL is a class that reduces critical thinking, (if you choose to accept it) . . . You're reduced ability to think reduces your Individual freedom. . . Belonging and security becomes more important.
You're pushed toward the bottom of the hierarchy of needs.
twi as a cult -and its parts like pfal- are not HEALTHY parts of people's lives. They MIMICKED healthy parts of people's lives and that's how it went as far as it did. Healthy people got tricked into joining, and formed a whole sub-culture that grew twi. twi will never grow like that again because that relied on a unique social movement that vpw diverted- and the internet makes it too easy to look up twi nowadays. That has nothing to do with students in high school or college, or why healthy people in society feel the need to "belong" to something- which can include a healthy marriage or a healthy circle of friends or any number of other "somethings" to which they might belong. (Really, this is lesson one of Intro to Sociology.)
No, I have degrees in the hard sciences. I resented having to dumb things down so we can all belong. What I witnessed, I witnessed. Sorry Not Sorry if that was offensive. [/quote]
You extrapolated from what you witnessed to the experiences at campuses everywhere. You just lumped in social fraternities- with the drinking and parties- with service fraternities- that don't drink and give community service and leadership training- and, apparently, didn't even notice the difference when it was pointed out. No, you're not sorry to be offensive or oblivious- but it says something.
"I resented having to dumb things down so we can all belong." I get the feeling that you use the word "belong" differently than most people.
16 hours ago, Bolshevik said:
Midwits, is not a term nor concept I came up with. Nor is the dumbing down of universities. I don't claim to originate that idea.
IQs having been dropping for decades, maybe longer. Not my idea.
I constantly said on this website over a decade ago, "Cult is Family". A certain Troll from this website capitalized on that. I have asked about overcoming the childish sense of belonging.
Actually, they recalibrated the IQ test scoring because the scoring went up, last I heard. Some people jumped to the conclusion that this means people are getting smarter. Myself, I think that it means that people taking the IQ tests are getting better at taking the IQ tests but not getting smarter at anything other than test-taking. Either way, the scores went up and had to be recalibrated to put "100" in the average once more. That doesn't indicate "dropping" scores.
In a cult, the cult takes the place of a family, and I thought that was self-evident. If you want to know how to overcome the urge to actually "belong" somewhere, you have to stop being a human- it's part of the human condition. However, this problem is self-correcting. Emile Durkheim began the field of Sociology by noting that those who "belonged" - whether in a healthy marriage or some social group- lived longer than those who do not. So, take your pick. Find HEALTHY ways to socialize, or wait for the Reaper.
"the childish sense of belonging." So long as you denigrate what makes for healthy people rather than try to understand it, your chances of "belonging" won't be so hot. You'll be continuously pushing it away to maintain a consistent self, and trying to belong as a matter of survival, and that just doesn't work. And you're manufacturing the problem in the first place by making "belonging" into a dirty word and healthy connections into something to deprecate.
The fact you're resorting to "Bolshevik no get it" . . .
I was at maybe 10 ROAs. I watched the adults
As I said, Cult is Family. Was I wrong?
Well, you don't get it.
" As I said, Cult is Family. Was I wrong?"
Trick question. twi put itself in the place of the HEALTHY family. You correctly identified that. If your family confused them in twi, that was the idea- but the family was incorrect.
" I was at maybe 10 ROAs. I watched the adults."
You really don't get the same experience at an ROA WATCHING it as PARTICIPATING in it. For that matter, the 1970s ROAs were different from the 1980s, which were different from the 1990s. The ones from the 1970s didn't resemble the ones you attended.
The few I know personally were in the 1980s. From what I hear, they were the tail end of good ROAs and were weak compared to the ones that went before. ROA 1988 was the last legit ROA. I know because I attended ROA 1989 and the difference was dramatic- and ROA 89 was mostly STAGED. A lot of the legit twi'ers who attended, showed up for the very last time, and never came back. Going to 1990s ROAs is a lot like attending another "Woodstock" that was made using film footage and descriptions of the original but no input from people who attended the first one. It's a cheap copy that almost mocks the original.
Belonging? I was so "unattached" after TWI that I felt like a real drifter. So lost and unable to make decisions, even of what to eat. Living in a country not where born, with few people I knew, family elsewhere and I'd broken ties (one of my family, not parent, is particularly horrible - just is), rejected by all my TWI "family." Eventually, I found a much-needed sense of belonging by getting naturalised in the country in which I was living.
We all need to "belong" somewhere. In our community, our family, our church, our "group" of whatever we enjoy doing. We don't have to be likeminded, but we do have links in common. I volunteer with a group that works with homeless people. Even the homeless folk have their own community, in which they "belong," and sometimes that's why they find it hard to leave and resume "normal" lives. Few friends/contacts outside that community.
The ones who don't seem to have a community, the "loners" who don't seem to belong anywhere - those are ones to watch out for. They can become increasingly dysfunctional and that can lead to increasingly antisocial behaviour.
"Rise of the Midwits" . . . I felt was a common enough phrase. And it is generally understood "belonging" while it may be a thing, is also another politically motivated thing. More important things take a back seat. This other discussion was a playing dumb by some.
I do not believe cult joining happens in a vacuum. As if cult leaders have some super power. They have tactics, that work in a context. If you belong in a cult, it's because you don't belong somewhere else.
The cult leader, VPW, believed everyone BELONGED to HIM. That is the reality of an NPD.
I was born in raised in a cult. I know the dual reality. LCM spoke freely of it, and encouraged it. ICSA website describes it well. I get the question of "where do we belong".
The relationship of the NPD, his CLASS, the effect on the mind (which I have posted cult followers are borderline PD-like . . . which is another way of saying critical thinking skills are subdued by a high intensity experience in THE CLASS) would heighten a person's need to belong. I'm not saying it never existed but it's like hunger. It's not always in the front of your mind and comes at different intensities.
"I felt it was a common enough phrase." Perhaps in some circles, but not in others, I'd say not in most.
"If you belong in a cult, it's because you don't belong somewhere else."
I disagree strongly with this. Cults hook people in, they trick people, they deceive people. The Jesus People that vpw tricked into joining, they were doing fine without him.
Evil cult leaders like vpw use the normal human impulse to "belong" (to form and participate in social structures, whether simple or complex) and SUBVERT it into serving the cult. There was nothing wrong with the impulse to "belong" any more than there's something wrong with the "impulse" to breathe regularly and eat regularly.
You used the ROA to illustrate a sense of belonging.
The ROA.
It's like saying life is in the TWIG. The opposite is true.
It really sounds like taunting. People outside of cults shun culties for a reason. The ROA was disgusting.
I'm going to say now "belonging" is not a positive idea. I'm sure the Germans felt belonging during the third Reich. It sounds no different than starving a population to control it.
This goes back to the main things you can't get past.
1) Rocky's experience of the ROA was wildly different from mine, let alone yours. His had happy people who were happy to see each other and interact for the first time in a year. That wasn't exactly what mine was like, and after the 1989 ROA, that wasn't what ANY of them were like. Further, if you were in during the 80s, and a minor at the ROA, and not a kid of the BOD or something, you were held on a VERY short leash. BOD kids got away with everything, the other kids were 1/2 way to being in prison- which can be hard to imagine for anyone who didn't see it.
So, when Rocky met up with old friends at the ROA, they felt like they belonged TO EACH OTHER- which is something he posted. If your experience of the ROA was different, that didn't erase HIS experience. ROA 88 and ROA 89 were completely different events, as experienced by attendees. Neither one meant the other didn't happen.
"The ROA was disgusting." Depends on which ones, and where you were at with them. In the 1990s, they sounded awful for everybody.
2) An inability to separate the concept of "belonging" -which appears in healthy marriages, healthy friendships, and son- from groups like twi and the Nazis enforcing conformity is a really fundamental problem. I seriously recommend you get that fixed if you want a happier life.
"Belonging" IS. Breathing IS. Eating IS. All of them can be done in harmful ways- vpw smoked for decades and ended up with cancer. Eating the wrong foods in the wrong amounts can lead to a heart attack. Socializing with twi can stunt your emotional growth and leave you unable to relate to other people. OR, each can be done in a healthy manner.
This seems to have turned into a discussion on RoA - which is currently cancelled by the current TWI leadership (no doubt because the number of people attending wouldn't cover more than a small back yard. The massive fields that TWI has would be obviously vacant, not as in some previous years.
I don't know if the current trustees, BoD or whatever they call themselves will reinstate RoA in some form. Hard to see how they could do that without completely embarrassing themselves. They'd have to hide away all pictures of previous RoA. Would scarcely bring in enough people to pay for the hire of the big marquee.
This seems to have turned into a discussion on RoA
TWI currently hosts 2 separate festivals. One is called The Rock and the other is called The Hard Place. Due to leadership's inability to decisively promote one event over the other, most current followers find themselves caught between a Rock and a Hard Place.
TWI currently hosts 2 separate festivals. One is called The Rock and the other is called The Hard Place. Due to leadership's inability to decisively promote one event over the other, most current followers find themselves caught between a Rock and a Hard Place.
(I'll show myself out.)
Some leaders pushed for doing anything and everything - hosting the Rock, The Hard Place and other solid venues – leaving no stone unturned in order to bring folks together…
(hey, wait up…I’ve shown myself out many times and would appreciate some company)
Edited by T-Bone Grease Spot Café vs Hard Rock Café
Ouch. A teacher who can't relate to students and doesn't understand them. "I get they hate learning."
twi as a cult -and its parts like pfal- are not HEALTHY parts of people's lives. They MIMICKED healthy parts of people's lives and that's how it went as far as it did. Healthy people got tricked into joining, and formed a whole sub-culture that grew twi. twi will never grow like that again because that relied on a unique social movement that vpw diverted- and the internet makes it too easy to look up twi nowadays. That has nothing to do with students in high school or college, or why healthy people in society feel the need to "belong" to something- which can include a healthy marriage or a healthy circle of friends or any number of other "somethings" to which they might belong. (Really, this is lesson one of Intro to Sociology.)
I think I get my students. Some keep in touch, even 10 years later. I get invited weddings and numerous social events.
I pointed out the old "everyone gets a gold star" trope. I'm sure you understand that.
I pointed out a model, which inspired by Rocky and ICSA, not ....ing contest about education.
you've said you studied the "hard sciences"- which means you haven't studied the SOCIAL sciences, like Psychology and Sociology. I know that, in some circles, people who work in the hard sciences don't think much of the social sciences, but each has their place. Sociology, for example, isn't an entire field you can pick up in an afternoon reading the newspaper.
Ever consider that you don't know the fields you've never studied?
I'd hardly think to educate you on the hard sciences- but you're supposing you understand group movements, group cohesion, etc, having never studied them- and are perfectly happy to suppose you understand them and we don't. Some of us have actually studied them.
Being a CONTINUOUS outsider doesn't do well for one's mental health. If you're not even happy belonging to your nuclear family (wife, kids) or your social circle (buddies you hang out with) , you're shutting yourself out of vital parts of life. If all you could say about family or friends is that those who enjoy being part of a family or hanging out with friends is that you don't because you prefer "freedom" and those who do enjoy them "don't like freedom so much", then this messageboard really is the least of your problems.
Ad hominen bologna.
I repeated what I read at the ICSA site. This is absurd.
This goes back to the main things you can't get past.
1) Rocky's experience of the ROA was wildly different from mine, let alone yours. His had happy people who were happy to see each other and interact for the first time in a year. That wasn't exactly what mine was like, and after the 1989 ROA, that wasn't what ANY of them were like. Further, if you were in during the 80s, and a minor at the ROA, and not a kid of the BOD or something, you were held on a VERY short leash. BOD kids got away with everything, the other kids were 1/2 way to being in prison- which can be hard to imagine for anyone who didn't see it.
So, when Rocky met up with old friends at the ROA, they felt like they belonged TO EACH OTHER- which is something he posted. If your experience of the ROA was different, that didn't erase HIS experience. ROA 88 and ROA 89 were completely different events, as experienced by attendees. Neither one meant the other didn't happen.
"The ROA was disgusting." Depends on which ones, and where you were at with them. In the 1990s, they sounded awful for everybody.
2) An inability to separate the concept of "belonging" -which appears in healthy marriages, healthy friendships, and son- from groups like twi and the Nazis enforcing conformity is a really fundamental problem. I seriously recommend you get that fixed if you want a happier life.
"Belonging" IS. Breathing IS. Eating IS. All of them can be done in harmful ways- vpw smoked for decades and ended up with cancer. Eating the wrong foods in the wrong amounts can lead to a hart attack. Socializing with twi can stunt your emotional growth and leave you unable to relate to other people. OR, each can be done in a healthy manner.
You're pretending not to understand.
I think twi as a high pressure system has been discussed over and over again here.
The context of the thread is THE *new* class.
What will the class do to a person? Inspire belonging? Why and how?
I presented a model. Some of my ideas do come from people in the real world. Likely people who know better than either of us.
Being a CONTINUOUS outsider doesn't do well for one's mental health. If you're not even happy belonging to your nuclear family (wife, kids) or your social circle (buddies you hang out with) , you're shutting yourself out of vital parts of life. If all you could say about family or friends is that those who enjoy being part of a family or hanging out with friends is that you don't because you prefer "freedom" and those who do enjoy them "don't like freedom so much", then this messageboard really is the least of your problems.
I have said these message boards do affect the real world. Especially in my teens and 20s when I couldn't develop new relationships because people would go online and ascribe the actions to the leaders to me.
The same thing happened again when I was kept from one of my children for nearly a year "because I grew up in a cult". That experience makes me dangerous right? The locals here understand TWI = BAD.
You extrapolated from what you witnessed to the experiences at campuses everywhere. You just lumped in social fraternities- with the drinking and parties- with service fraternities- that don't drink and give community service and leadership training- and, apparently, didn't even notice the difference when it was pointed out. No, you're not sorry to be offensive or oblivious- but it says something.
"I resented having to dumb things down so we can all belong." I get the feeling that you use the word "belong" differently than most people.
Actually, they recalibrated the IQ test scoring because the scoring went up, last I heard. Some people jumped to the conclusion that this means people are getting smarter. Myself, I think that it means that people taking the IQ tests are getting better at taking the IQ tests but not getting smarter at anything other than test-taking. Either way, the scores went up and had to be recalibrated to put "100" in the average once more. That doesn't indicate "dropping" scores.
. . .
We live in a time of low infant mortality rates and great health care. Selective pressures have gone down. It takes less effort to survive.
I think someone was trying to explain different time periods to me recently.
Anyone, besides Rocky and Wordwolf want to explain?
What are they afraid of?
Ok...I’ll throw my two cents into the fray based on peronal experiences of someone not born into TWI. I readily acknowledge there is a huge difference in perspective from someone born into TWI vs. someone who chose the cult lifestyle. I coordinated a young adult fellowship at HQ for around 5 years or so...I have worked extensively with those who fall on both sides of the fence. The problems Bolshevik is dealing with can be common with folks who were raised in TWI, yet unique to his own situation. It's a perspective that I don't have first hand and I've developed a great deal of empathy for those who were born into TWI and are putting the pieces together. It's a hard row to hoe as they say.
I will speak from my personal experiences though. The way international did offer a sense of belonging to me. I made it my new family and basically severly limited familial relationships as I progressed. Many people I know who are still in TWI stay because of social pressures if they leave. Being shunned, or marked and avoided, (as TWI call is it) is potentially a very powerful weapon to get people to tow the line. Not only does TWI offer a household as they call it they also allow you to volunteer to let TWI define your role in their household. The caste sytem they have. What level grad are you are? Whatever classes and programs you participate in will open up new roles to play in the household.
Here’s an example or two. I knew many way corps who would not move past being leadership in the cult. They belong to the household and they relish their positions of responsibility. They crave the attention. Not belonging to the way corps is a death sentence for some. Why? Because being dropped from active corps (DFAC) is their worst nightmare. Not belonging to the way corps leadership body is a scary concept when you have sold out your entire life to become corps. I know because I had to wrestle with these same realities when I left in 2008.
Also, I was in New Orleans a few months ago and looked up an old TWI friend that I havent seen in 23 years. Him and his wife live up in Baton Rouge and came down to New Orleans to hang with us for an afternoon. We talked very little of TWI but he kept reiterating to me that he would leave TWI...but where would he go? It’s the community of people that is the appeal for him and his wife. It keeps them where they are and basically apathetic to change, even though I could sense deep down they want more.
As for people who have been born into TWI. Man there’s so much pressure on these kids by their parents it should be a crime. Most parents place their kids on a pedestal. The typical logic goes kinda like this: “Oh...little Johnny...you are being raised in the Word...therefore your believing should be so much greater than those outside the household.” Many parents push their kids into way disciple (or whatever its called now) or to work on Staff, or into the way corps. Some kids accept their arranged life and run with it and are promoted heavily by TWI for it. However, many grow up with deep seated issues as they try and adjust to life as an adult. It’s tough spot to be in. I’ve known Bolshevik for around 22 years or so and know a lot of what he has had to deal with over the years. I can say for all the hell I’ve been through on account of certain leadership in TWI, what he has been subjected to is awful and I have to say he has handled it better than I could have.
They are afraid of losing their social status. It was a huge glass of ice water to the face when I had to adjust to life outside TWI's household. Life has never been better --- that social trap is tough to climb out of but it can be done.
Victor Paul Wierwille was either rotten to the core or he wasn't. His organization was a total farce or it wasn't.
I think we know this whole "everyone's experience is different" trope is odd.
An elephant walks in front of two people standing together. They look at each other and one says "I didn't see anyhting, that was my experience".
Part of gaslighting is to deny things are bad, as I understand.
Splitting (also called black-and-white thinking or all-or-nothing thinking) is the failure in a person's thinking to bring together the dichotomy of both perceived positive and negative qualities of something into a cohesive, realistic whole. It is a common defense mechanism wherein the individual tends to think in extremes (e.g., an individual's actions and motivations are all good or all bad with no middle ground). This kind of dichotomous interpretation is contrasted by an acknowledgement of certain nuances known as "shades of gray"
From Wikipedia - splitting
~ ~ ~ ~
The official psychological term for black and white thinking is “splitting.” At its extremes, splitting can be a symptom of mental illness like Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD). In everyday settings, it can simply hold us back from experiencing some of the richness of our lives and relationships.
Of course, the world is not an either/or place: Our lives are full of shades of gray. By seeing the world in black and white — rather than the complex rainbow it actually is — we may initially make it easier for ourselves to separate out good from bad, right from wrong, and beautiful from ugly. But this kind of thinking can be exhausting, sending us through constant ups and downs. And on a deep level, simplifying things into easy, binary terms robs us of much of the complexity that makes life and relationships so rich…
…All of us have wondered if we’re “bad people” or “good people.” In reality, most of us are somewhere in between, with both bad and good qualities. When you think in black and white terms, however, you risk being overly self-critical or refusing to see your faults….
…Like all aspects of life, work will have good days and bad days, and many days that are somewhere in between…When we acknowledge that our professional lives, like every other aspect of life, are complex and may have pluses and minuses, we enable ourselves to learn and grow toward success…
In my humble opinion “everyone's experience is different" is valid and necessary for me to get the bigger picture of what happened…if a cult-leader deceives a lot of people – there will always be various responses to that…some on Grease Spot say he was a good man gone bad…some say God spoke to him and taught him “The Word”…some may paint him up as the devil incarnate…I have found it’s more helpful to judge wierwille’s ACTIONS and WORDS witnessed to by many including myself whether it was through the EXPERIENCE of sitting through classes, in public settings, personal direct interaction, or written works.
I feel confident that it is my duty to judge ACTIONS and WORDS per the numerous passages throughout the Bible that call those of the Christian faith to form an opinion based on a simple understanding of Scripture, logic and the golden rule – i.e., the ultimate, all-encompassing rule of morality promoted by every religion and ethical system…of course experiences, observations, comments, criticisms and arguments from Scripture and logic are debatable…and it should all be expressed to give one the bigger picture…But what is NOT debatable is anything wierwille wrote, said or did – because it’s documented in books, magazines, newsletters, recorded on tape in teachings or witnessed by those present. What is always up for argument is trying to guess at his motivation, analyze his use of Scripture to justify an action or to surmise any unintended consequences from what he wrote, said or did.
Rather than think of wierwille as the devil himself, TWI as being hell on earth or PFAL as being all bad – I prefer to look at things taking into account we’re all human…to me, PFAL was simply wierwille’s manifesto…
...besides wierwille being an unabashed plagiarist, exhibiting strong addictions to nicotine, alcohol and sex - he was also delusional. That might put a lot of this stuff in a different perspective...for a time I let myself get sucked into his delusion...Like the character Cooper in the movie Interstellar going into the black hole Interstellar - entering the black hole ...Cooper's trip through the black hole was a totally unique experience - and in the story that did give him quite a different perspective of space and time...there's no way I can wipe out my memories/TWI-experience...so I sometimes find myself peering through different "self-reflective lenses" and draw upon things I learned, what needs fixing, and trying to be more empathetic to others with similar experiences.
concerning the incident you mentioned "An elephant walks in front of two people standing together. They look at each other and one says, "I didn't see anything, that was my experience". " Assuming the elephant actually did walk in front of the two people standing together - I would want to talk with the person who said he or she didn't see anything. I would be very curious as to why.
...Some people on Grease Spot have a hard time separating the man from the myths, legends, words and works (whether good or bad). But as reality goes…as life goes – there’s lots of stuff that gets thrown into the mix. I can note good and bad things in wierwille, TWI, PFAL. Unfortunately, the bad outweighs the good in my opinion. But exercising discernment is a wise and healthy thing as far as recovering from a cult.
I tend to think of my own time in TWI as a weird symbiotic experience - involving interaction between two different “organisms” living in close physical association…there was me as well as other well-meaning Christians having a godly effect on each other but that was intertwined with the manipulative and exploitative tendencies of a harmful and controlling organization that we belonged to. In symbiotic relationships there are "benefits" to both parties…What did I get out of it? Maybe some sense of belonging to a group that I thought was special…and working for a cause that was bigger than myself. At its best I got to exercise my faith, hope, and love with others...otherwise sometimes it was just playing church - when The Way got in the way of the spirit .... ... What TWI got out of it was some of my money, talents, resources, and time to facilitate running more PFAL classes and other nonsensical time-wasters.
In summary: I like Grease Spot Café for the chance to share my experience...also some of the experiences that other Grease Spotters share resonates with me. It continues to reveal a bigger picture of The Way International and even more so the human condition!
Edited by T-Bone my experience as an editor leaves a lot to be edited
when Rocky met up with old friends at the ROA, they felt like they belonged TO EACH OTHER- which is something he posted.
Yes
4 hours ago, Bolshevik said:
You're pretending not to understand.
4 hours ago, Bolshevik said:
The context of the thread is THE *new* class.
Until you derailed the thread and made it about YOU. And then you made statements wherein you didn't explain yourself but acted like everybody already knew what you meant anyway. That's tedious... and absurd, especially when you declare that your audience was PRETENDING to not understand your words.
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Scripture, The Bible, is not *a* language. "It interprets itself", though.
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Now that brings back some memories... Lived on Webb Avenue for many years, and had our fellowship there for many years which is walking distance to the school. Ah... those good old days, long long time ago.
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WordWolf
It's been said many, many times at the GSC, but I'll say it again- everyone's twi experience was different. When and where I went, "teaching at fellowship," for about 1/3 of us, was something quite comfortable. (Not everyone is comfortable teaching any group of any size.) We didn't have someone looming over our shoulders, and there was no uncomfortable feeling. We also experienced regular growth WITHOUT GOING DOOR TO DOOR.
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WordWolf
The pieces that are missing are that there were different eras. In the earlier days, there was more of a sense of belonging, and less high pressure sales. I hear that the 70s/early 80s were a lot more of the former and a lot less of the latter. By the end of the 1980s, lcm had drawn his line in the sand and demanded that twi'ers follow him blindly. THAT marked a huge difference, because 80% of the people got up and left- joining the local leadership who refused to follow lcm blindly and were kicked out. A few years after that, the high pressure sales really cranked up at twi.
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WordWolf
Bolshevik,
you've said you studied the "hard sciences"- which means you haven't studied the SOCIAL sciences, like Psychology and Sociology. I know that, in some circles, people who work in the hard sciences don't think much of the social sciences, but each has their place. Sociology, for example, isn't an entire field you can pick up in an afternoon reading the newspaper.
Ever consider that you don't know the fields you've never studied?
I'd hardly think to educate you on the hard sciences- but you're supposing you understand group movements, group cohesion, etc, having never studied them- and are perfectly happy to suppose you understand them and we don't. Some of us have actually studied them.
Being a CONTINUOUS outsider doesn't do well for one's mental health. If you're not even happy belonging to your nuclear family (wife, kids) or your social circle (buddies you hang out with) , you're shutting yourself out of vital parts of life. If all you could say about family or friends is that those who enjoy being part of a family or hanging out with friends is that you don't because you prefer "freedom" and those who do enjoy them "don't like freedom so much", then this messageboard really is the least of your problems.
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WordWolf
Ouch. A teacher who can't relate to students and doesn't understand them. "I get they hate learning."
twi as a cult -and its parts like pfal- are not HEALTHY parts of people's lives. They MIMICKED healthy parts of people's lives and that's how it went as far as it did. Healthy people got tricked into joining, and formed a whole sub-culture that grew twi. twi will never grow like that again because that relied on a unique social movement that vpw diverted- and the internet makes it too easy to look up twi nowadays. That has nothing to do with students in high school or college, or why healthy people in society feel the need to "belong" to something- which can include a healthy marriage or a healthy circle of friends or any number of other "somethings" to which they might belong. (Really, this is lesson one of Intro to Sociology.)
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WordWolf
You extrapolated from what you witnessed to the experiences at campuses everywhere. You just lumped in social fraternities- with the drinking and parties- with service fraternities- that don't drink and give community service and leadership training- and, apparently, didn't even notice the difference when it was pointed out. No, you're not sorry to be offensive or oblivious- but it says something.
"I resented having to dumb things down so we can all belong." I get the feeling that you use the word "belong" differently than most people.
Actually, they recalibrated the IQ test scoring because the scoring went up, last I heard. Some people jumped to the conclusion that this means people are getting smarter. Myself, I think that it means that people taking the IQ tests are getting better at taking the IQ tests but not getting smarter at anything other than test-taking. Either way, the scores went up and had to be recalibrated to put "100" in the average once more. That doesn't indicate "dropping" scores.
In a cult, the cult takes the place of a family, and I thought that was self-evident. If you want to know how to overcome the urge to actually "belong" somewhere, you have to stop being a human- it's part of the human condition. However, this problem is self-correcting. Emile Durkheim began the field of Sociology by noting that those who "belonged" - whether in a healthy marriage or some social group- lived longer than those who do not. So, take your pick. Find HEALTHY ways to socialize, or wait for the Reaper.
"the childish sense of belonging." So long as you denigrate what makes for healthy people rather than try to understand it, your chances of "belonging" won't be so hot. You'll be continuously pushing it away to maintain a consistent self, and trying to belong as a matter of survival, and that just doesn't work. And you're manufacturing the problem in the first place by making "belonging" into a dirty word and healthy connections into something to deprecate.
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WordWolf
Well, you don't get it.
" As I said, Cult is Family. Was I wrong?"
Trick question. twi put itself in the place of the HEALTHY family. You correctly identified that. If your family confused them in twi, that was the idea- but the family was incorrect.
" I was at maybe 10 ROAs. I watched the adults."
You really don't get the same experience at an ROA WATCHING it as PARTICIPATING in it. For that matter, the 1970s ROAs were different from the 1980s, which were different from the 1990s. The ones from the 1970s didn't resemble the ones you attended.
The few I know personally were in the 1980s. From what I hear, they were the tail end of good ROAs and were weak compared to the ones that went before. ROA 1988 was the last legit ROA. I know because I attended ROA 1989 and the difference was dramatic- and ROA 89 was mostly STAGED. A lot of the legit twi'ers who attended, showed up for the very last time, and never came back. Going to 1990s ROAs is a lot like attending another "Woodstock" that was made using film footage and descriptions of the original but no input from people who attended the first one. It's a cheap copy that almost mocks the original.
Again, we've been through all this before.
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WordWolf
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WordWolf
"I felt it was a common enough phrase." Perhaps in some circles, but not in others, I'd say not in most.
"If you belong in a cult, it's because you don't belong somewhere else."
I disagree strongly with this. Cults hook people in, they trick people, they deceive people. The Jesus People that vpw tricked into joining, they were doing fine without him.
Evil cult leaders like vpw use the normal human impulse to "belong" (to form and participate in social structures, whether simple or complex) and SUBVERT it into serving the cult. There was nothing wrong with the impulse to "belong" any more than there's something wrong with the "impulse" to breathe regularly and eat regularly.
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WordWolf
This goes back to the main things you can't get past.
1) Rocky's experience of the ROA was wildly different from mine, let alone yours. His had happy people who were happy to see each other and interact for the first time in a year. That wasn't exactly what mine was like, and after the 1989 ROA, that wasn't what ANY of them were like. Further, if you were in during the 80s, and a minor at the ROA, and not a kid of the BOD or something, you were held on a VERY short leash. BOD kids got away with everything, the other kids were 1/2 way to being in prison- which can be hard to imagine for anyone who didn't see it.
So, when Rocky met up with old friends at the ROA, they felt like they belonged TO EACH OTHER- which is something he posted. If your experience of the ROA was different, that didn't erase HIS experience. ROA 88 and ROA 89 were completely different events, as experienced by attendees. Neither one meant the other didn't happen.
"The ROA was disgusting." Depends on which ones, and where you were at with them. In the 1990s, they sounded awful for everybody.
2) An inability to separate the concept of "belonging" -which appears in healthy marriages, healthy friendships, and son- from groups like twi and the Nazis enforcing conformity is a really fundamental problem. I seriously recommend you get that fixed if you want a happier life.
"Belonging" IS. Breathing IS. Eating IS. All of them can be done in harmful ways- vpw smoked for decades and ended up with cancer. Eating the wrong foods in the wrong amounts can lead to a heart attack. Socializing with twi can stunt your emotional growth and leave you unable to relate to other people. OR, each can be done in a healthy manner.
Edited by WordWolf.
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Twinky
This seems to have turned into a discussion on RoA - which is currently cancelled by the current TWI leadership (no doubt because the number of people attending wouldn't cover more than a small back yard. The massive fields that TWI has would be obviously vacant, not as in some previous years.
I don't know if the current trustees, BoD or whatever they call themselves will reinstate RoA in some form. Hard to see how they could do that without completely embarrassing themselves. They'd have to hide away all pictures of previous RoA. Would scarcely bring in enough people to pay for the hire of the big marquee.
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waysider
TWI currently hosts 2 separate festivals. One is called The Rock and the other is called The Hard Place. Due to leadership's inability to decisively promote one event over the other, most current followers find themselves caught between a Rock and a Hard Place.
(I'll show myself out.)
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T-Bone
Some leaders pushed for doing anything and everything - hosting the Rock, The Hard Place and other solid venues – leaving no stone unturned in order to bring folks together…
Edited by T-Bone(hey, wait up…I’ve shown myself out many times and would appreciate some company)
Grease Spot Café vs Hard Rock Café
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Bolshevik
I think I get my students. Some keep in touch, even 10 years later. I get invited weddings and numerous social events.
I pointed out the old "everyone gets a gold star" trope. I'm sure you understand that.
I pointed out a model, which inspired by Rocky and ICSA, not ....ing contest about education.
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Bolshevik
Ad hominen bologna.
I repeated what I read at the ICSA site. This is absurd.
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Bolshevik
You're pretending not to understand.
I think twi as a high pressure system has been discussed over and over again here.
The context of the thread is THE *new* class.
What will the class do to a person? Inspire belonging? Why and how?
I presented a model. Some of my ideas do come from people in the real world. Likely people who know better than either of us.
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Bolshevik
Victor Paul Wierwille was either rotten to the core or he wasn't. His organization was a total farce or it wasn't.
I think we know this whole "everyone's experience is different" trope is odd.
An elephant walks in front of two people standing together. They look at each other and one says "I didn't see anyhting, that was my experience".
Part of gaslighting is to deny things are bad, as I understand.
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Bolshevik
I have said these message boards do affect the real world. Especially in my teens and 20s when I couldn't develop new relationships because people would go online and ascribe the actions to the leaders to me.
The same thing happened again when I was kept from one of my children for nearly a year "because I grew up in a cult". That experience makes me dangerous right? The locals here understand TWI = BAD.
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Bolshevik
We live in a time of low infant mortality rates and great health care. Selective pressures have gone down. It takes less effort to survive.
I think someone was trying to explain different time periods to me recently.
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OldSkool
Ok...I’ll throw my two cents into the fray based on peronal experiences of someone not born into TWI. I readily acknowledge there is a huge difference in perspective from someone born into TWI vs. someone who chose the cult lifestyle. I coordinated a young adult fellowship at HQ for around 5 years or so...I have worked extensively with those who fall on both sides of the fence. The problems Bolshevik is dealing with can be common with folks who were raised in TWI, yet unique to his own situation. It's a perspective that I don't have first hand and I've developed a great deal of empathy for those who were born into TWI and are putting the pieces together. It's a hard row to hoe as they say.
I will speak from my personal experiences though. The way international did offer a sense of belonging to me. I made it my new family and basically severly limited familial relationships as I progressed. Many people I know who are still in TWI stay because of social pressures if they leave. Being shunned, or marked and avoided, (as TWI call is it) is potentially a very powerful weapon to get people to tow the line. Not only does TWI offer a household as they call it they also allow you to volunteer to let TWI define your role in their household. The caste sytem they have. What level grad are you are? Whatever classes and programs you participate in will open up new roles to play in the household.
Here’s an example or two. I knew many way corps who would not move past being leadership in the cult. They belong to the household and they relish their positions of responsibility. They crave the attention. Not belonging to the way corps is a death sentence for some. Why? Because being dropped from active corps (DFAC) is their worst nightmare. Not belonging to the way corps leadership body is a scary concept when you have sold out your entire life to become corps. I know because I had to wrestle with these same realities when I left in 2008.
Also, I was in New Orleans a few months ago and looked up an old TWI friend that I havent seen in 23 years. Him and his wife live up in Baton Rouge and came down to New Orleans to hang with us for an afternoon. We talked very little of TWI but he kept reiterating to me that he would leave TWI...but where would he go? It’s the community of people that is the appeal for him and his wife. It keeps them where they are and basically apathetic to change, even though I could sense deep down they want more.
As for people who have been born into TWI. Man there’s so much pressure on these kids by their parents it should be a crime. Most parents place their kids on a pedestal. The typical logic goes kinda like this: “Oh...little Johnny...you are being raised in the Word...therefore your believing should be so much greater than those outside the household.” Many parents push their kids into way disciple (or whatever its called now) or to work on Staff, or into the way corps. Some kids accept their arranged life and run with it and are promoted heavily by TWI for it. However, many grow up with deep seated issues as they try and adjust to life as an adult. It’s tough spot to be in. I’ve known Bolshevik for around 22 years or so and know a lot of what he has had to deal with over the years. I can say for all the hell I’ve been through on account of certain leadership in TWI, what he has been subjected to is awful and I have to say he has handled it better than I could have.
They are afraid of losing their social status. It was a huge glass of ice water to the face when I had to adjust to life outside TWI's household. Life has never been better --- that social trap is tough to climb out of but it can be done.
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T-Bone
Splitting (also called black-and-white thinking or all-or-nothing thinking) is the failure in a person's thinking to bring together the dichotomy of both perceived positive and negative qualities of something into a cohesive, realistic whole. It is a common defense mechanism wherein the individual tends to think in extremes (e.g., an individual's actions and motivations are all good or all bad with no middle ground). This kind of dichotomous interpretation is contrasted by an acknowledgement of certain nuances known as "shades of gray"
From Wikipedia - splitting
~ ~ ~ ~
The official psychological term for black and white thinking is “splitting.” At its extremes, splitting can be a symptom of mental illness like Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD). In everyday settings, it can simply hold us back from experiencing some of the richness of our lives and relationships.
Of course, the world is not an either/or place: Our lives are full of shades of gray. By seeing the world in black and white — rather than the complex rainbow it actually is — we may initially make it easier for ourselves to separate out good from bad, right from wrong, and beautiful from ugly. But this kind of thinking can be exhausting, sending us through constant ups and downs. And on a deep level, simplifying things into easy, binary terms robs us of much of the complexity that makes life and relationships so rich…
…All of us have wondered if we’re “bad people” or “good people.” In reality, most of us are somewhere in between, with both bad and good qualities. When you think in black and white terms, however, you risk being overly self-critical or refusing to see your faults….
…Like all aspects of life, work will have good days and bad days, and many days that are somewhere in between…When we acknowledge that our professional lives, like every other aspect of life, are complex and may have pluses and minuses, we enable ourselves to learn and grow toward success…
Excerpts From 5 Ways Black and White Thinking Poisons Your Perspective
~ ~ ~ ~
In my humble opinion “everyone's experience is different" is valid and necessary for me to get the bigger picture of what happened…if a cult-leader deceives a lot of people – there will always be various responses to that…some on Grease Spot say he was a good man gone bad…some say God spoke to him and taught him “The Word”…some may paint him up as the devil incarnate…I have found it’s more helpful to judge wierwille’s ACTIONS and WORDS witnessed to by many including myself whether it was through the EXPERIENCE of sitting through classes, in public settings, personal direct interaction, or written works.
I feel confident that it is my duty to judge ACTIONS and WORDS per the numerous passages throughout the Bible that call those of the Christian faith to form an opinion based on a simple understanding of Scripture, logic and the golden rule – i.e., the ultimate, all-encompassing rule of morality promoted by every religion and ethical system…of course experiences, observations, comments, criticisms and arguments from Scripture and logic are debatable…and it should all be expressed to give one the bigger picture…But what is NOT debatable is anything wierwille wrote, said or did – because it’s documented in books, magazines, newsletters, recorded on tape in teachings or witnessed by those present. What is always up for argument is trying to guess at his motivation, analyze his use of Scripture to justify an action or to surmise any unintended consequences from what he wrote, said or did.
Rather than think of wierwille as the devil himself, TWI as being hell on earth or PFAL as being all bad – I prefer to look at things taking into account we’re all human…to me, PFAL was simply wierwille’s manifesto…
...besides wierwille being an unabashed plagiarist, exhibiting strong addictions to nicotine, alcohol and sex - he was also delusional. That might put a lot of this stuff in a different perspective...for a time I let myself get sucked into his delusion...Like the character Cooper in the movie Interstellar going into the black hole Interstellar - entering the black hole ...Cooper's trip through the black hole was a totally unique experience - and in the story that did give him quite a different perspective of space and time...there's no way I can wipe out my memories/TWI-experience...so I sometimes find myself peering through different "self-reflective lenses" and draw upon things I learned, what needs fixing, and trying to be more empathetic to others with similar experiences.
concerning the incident you mentioned "An elephant walks in front of two people standing together. They look at each other and one says, "I didn't see anything, that was my experience". " Assuming the elephant actually did walk in front of the two people standing together - I would want to talk with the person who said he or she didn't see anything. I would be very curious as to why.
...Some people on Grease Spot have a hard time separating the man from the myths, legends, words and works (whether good or bad). But as reality goes…as life goes – there’s lots of stuff that gets thrown into the mix. I can note good and bad things in wierwille, TWI, PFAL. Unfortunately, the bad outweighs the good in my opinion. But exercising discernment is a wise and healthy thing as far as recovering from a cult.
I tend to think of my own time in TWI as a weird symbiotic experience - involving interaction between two different “organisms” living in close physical association…there was me as well as other well-meaning Christians having a godly effect on each other but that was intertwined with the manipulative and exploitative tendencies of a harmful and controlling organization that we belonged to. In symbiotic relationships there are "benefits" to both parties…What did I get out of it? Maybe some sense of belonging to a group that I thought was special…and working for a cause that was bigger than myself. At its best I got to exercise my faith, hope, and love with others...otherwise sometimes it was just playing church - when The Way got in the way of the spirit
.... ... What TWI got out of it was some of my money, talents, resources, and time to facilitate running more PFAL classes and other nonsensical time-wasters.
In summary: I like Grease Spot Café for the chance to share my experience...also some of the experiences that other Grease Spotters share resonates with me. It continues to reveal a bigger picture of The Way International and even more so the human condition!
Edited by T-Bonemy experience as an editor leaves a lot to be edited
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Bolshevik
Just adding,
Oldskool makes a mean brisket.
Speaking as a parent, I honestly don't know if could have handled what he went through.
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OldSkool
Thanks!! I really appreciate the kindness.
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Rocky
Yes
Until you derailed the thread and made it about YOU. And then you made statements wherein you didn't explain yourself but acted like everybody already knew what you meant anyway. That's tedious... and absurd, especially when you declare that your audience was PRETENDING to not understand your words.
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