If I point out downsides to belonging . . . such as attachment . . . why is that an issue?
Perhaps because despite your views/understanding of the notion, you're not going to change human nature in any way just by telling everyone here that belonging is childish or otherwise anachronistic.
No, that's not necessarily true. There was great joy for many at ROA gatherings... because people felt a sense of belonging to each other.
Bolshevik, please find solace and peace... somewhere, somehow. Perhaps by finding a social network to and from which you can obtain a sense of belonging.
Hostility? From me? That's not what you're sensing.
The fact you're resorting to "Bolshevik no get it" . . .
"Rise of the Midwits" . . . I felt was a common enough phrase. And it is generally understood "belonging" while it may be a thing, is also another politically motivated thing. More important things take a back seat. This other discussion was a playing dumb by some.
I do not believe cult joining happens in a vacuum. As if cult leaders have some super power. They have tactics, that work in a context. If you belong in a cult, it's because you don't belong somewhere else.
The cult leader, VPW, believed everyone BELONGED to HIM. That is the reality of an NPD.
I was born in raised in a cult. I know the dual reality. LCM spoke freely of it, and encouraged it. ICSA website describes it well. I get the question of "where do we belong".
The relationship of the NPD, his CLASS, the effect on the mind (which I have posted cult followers are borderline PD-like . . . which is another way of saying critical thinking skills are subdued by a high intensity experience in THE CLASS) would heighten a person's need to belong. I'm not saying it never existed but it's like hunger. It's not always in the front of your mind and comes at different intensities.
Then I redirect you to ICSA and you can read it the RIGHT way.
Are you suggesting that unless I come to agree with you, I am and will continue to be WRONG about all of what I have to say about TWI? Because that is very much what it sounds like.
Again, seriously? Belonging IS something that has been written about before... on GSC.
IF you need any insight on where to find sociologist or psychologist research on the subject, just ask. Otherwise, ICSA might be a good place to start.
What's with the persistent chip on your shoulder? By definition, YOU cannot label any other person's experience as being wrong.
You say you have degrees in hard sciences. If that's where you stopped learning, that's just sad.
When did I say someone's experience was wrong? To you?
I'm told my own experiences are wrong all the time. As far as I know, you told me I read the ISCA website WRONG. You told me I read this website WRONG.
The idea that THE CLASS pressures a mind down Maslow's hierarchy of needs, not up it .. . Is there some issue with that statement? I got it from the ICSA site.
Belonging is not at the top of the hierarchy . . .
It's just a model. But that NEED becoming parallel with your wants so to speak . . . Due to pressure. Due to stress. Due to the inability to think.
Desperation combined with belonging results in unhealthy attachment.
When I was in high school, I went to the Bronx High School of Science. Entrance was by competitive exam- you had to try to get in, and take their exam to attempt to get in. Most students blew the exam. (When I was in the 8th grade, I was in a Special Progress class, where most of the class took the exam. I was the only one that made it. The next year, encouraged someone made it, everyone took the exam. None of them made it.) Anyone who went there knew that the school would be unusually difficult. None of us went there if we "hated learning." Lots of us, including myself, belonged to clubs at the school. None of that computes, according to Bolshevik.
In college, I was in a fraternity. It was (and still is) a SERVICE fraternity. It's not dedicated to parties and drinking, it's dedicated to public service and community service, and is mentioned on resumes because lots of people know it as a good training grounds for workers, for volunteers, etc. They also have leadership training programs. It's considered a sign of good citizenship in some circles, and Eagle Scouts are recommended to consider joining when they age out of the Scouts and go to college. So, why did I help set up my college's fraternity chapter in the first place? According to Bolshevik, it assisted in "the rise of the midwits."
Of course, another possibility is that- since I have a genius IQ and studied Sociology and can offer alternate explanations, and Bol never studied Sociology- that Bolshevik is incorrect and other explanations cover it. At the moment, I'm not exactly eager to lay it all out AGAIN (we've been through this before) for someone who insults me so freely and thoughtlessly.
As I am speaking to a generation of failed leaders, Wordwolf is also trying to sidestep the subject, ad hominen style. I do think of you more highly than that.
Midwits are intelligent. And due to Darwinian pressures that intelligence is coselected with social skills. That's another topic.
By then, many have realized (albeit temporarily) their sense of belonging is inextricably linked to the cult. The duration of that belonging depends on one's tolerance for control/abuse by the cult leaders.
That's not what you claimed I said when you made an erroneous characterization of my point about a sense of belonging... I can only shake my head at what you're doing and guess at why you're doing it.
That's not what you claimed I said when you made an erroneous characterization of my point about a sense of belonging... I can only shake my head at what you're doing and guess at why you're doing it.
34 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:
The idea that THE CLASS pressures a mind down Maslow's hierarchy of needs, not up it .. . Is there some issue with that statement? I got it from the ICSA site.
Belonging is not at the top of the hierarchy . . .
It's just a model. But that NEED becoming parallel with your wants so to speak . . . Due to pressure. Due to stress. Due to the inability to think.
Desperation combined with belonging results in unhealthy attachment.
In retrospect, when I think of my time in TWI, I think of it as more of a survival experience than a belonging experience. It may have started out with a promise of belonging, but as expectations and responsibilities multiplied, I felt more and more like I was in survival mode.
Here's another way to look at it: When you finally realized you had severed your ties, did you feel a sense of loss for what you were once a part of -OR- did you feel a sense of relief to be gone?
(Yeah, I know you can never completely sever you ties, Bolshevik. That puts you in a position that comes with its own set of unique complexities.)
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Bolshevik
Scripture, The Bible, is not *a* language. "It interprets itself", though.
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Rocky
Perhaps because despite your views/understanding of the notion, you're not going to change human nature in any way just by telling everyone here that belonging is childish or otherwise anachronistic.
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Bolshevik
The fact you're resorting to "Bolshevik no get it" . . .
I was at maybe 10 ROAs. I watched the adults.
As I said, Cult is Family. Was I wrong?
Edited by Bolshevikbolshevik no spell
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Bolshevik
Then I redirect you to ICSA and you can read it the RIGHT way.
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Bolshevik
James Wolf . . . WORD-Wolf . . . . hmmmm
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Bolshevik
"Rise of the Midwits" . . . I felt was a common enough phrase. And it is generally understood "belonging" while it may be a thing, is also another politically motivated thing. More important things take a back seat. This other discussion was a playing dumb by some.
I do not believe cult joining happens in a vacuum. As if cult leaders have some super power. They have tactics, that work in a context. If you belong in a cult, it's because you don't belong somewhere else.
The cult leader, VPW, believed everyone BELONGED to HIM. That is the reality of an NPD.
I was born in raised in a cult. I know the dual reality. LCM spoke freely of it, and encouraged it. ICSA website describes it well. I get the question of "where do we belong".
The relationship of the NPD, his CLASS, the effect on the mind (which I have posted cult followers are borderline PD-like . . . which is another way of saying critical thinking skills are subdued by a high intensity experience in THE CLASS) would heighten a person's need to belong. I'm not saying it never existed but it's like hunger. It's not always in the front of your mind and comes at different intensities.
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Rocky
Are you suggesting that unless I come to agree with you, I am and will continue to be WRONG about all of what I have to say about TWI? Because that is very much what it sounds like.
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Rocky
I wasn't resorting to any "fact." I was sharing MY EXPERIENCE. Are you telling me that my experience is wrong?
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Bolshevik
This was your response to a simple question.
I don't know Rocky, WAS your experience WRONG?
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Bolshevik
I'll go first.
I was raised in cult.
My experience was wrong.
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Rocky
What's with the persistent chip on your shoulder? By definition, YOU cannot label any other person's experience as being wrong.
You say you have degrees in hard sciences. If that's where you stopped learning, that's just sad.
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Bolshevik
When did I say someone's experience was wrong? To you?
I'm told my own experiences are wrong all the time. As far as I know, you told me I read the ISCA website WRONG. You told me I read this website WRONG.
SCRIPTURE INTERPRETS ITSELF!!!
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Bolshevik
YOU made a claim that that you felt you belong to the cult.
I am going to take that at face value.
You are trying to take back the words YOU said.
You felt a sense of belonging. You participated in the cult.
I CAN judge the cult and it's practices as WRONG. Many many people judge it as WRONG.
I don't know what you are trying to hide with "we handled that in the class . . . I mean GSC"
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Bolshevik
The idea that THE CLASS pressures a mind down Maslow's hierarchy of needs, not up it .. . Is there some issue with that statement? I got it from the ICSA site.
Belonging is not at the top of the hierarchy . . .
It's just a model. But that NEED becoming parallel with your wants so to speak . . . Due to pressure. Due to stress. Due to the inability to think.
Desperation combined with belonging results in unhealthy attachment.
Edited by BolshevikBolshevik no spell
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Bolshevik
As I am speaking to a generation of failed leaders, Wordwolf is also trying to sidestep the subject, ad hominen style. I do think of you more highly than that.
Midwits are intelligent. And due to Darwinian pressures that intelligence is coselected with social skills. That's another topic.
You are attempting a red herring. Shame shame.
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Rocky
Those are YOUR words, not mine.
Again, I have no idea why you write like you have a chip on your shoulder, but the hostility is not coming from me.
You did NOT take MY words at face value.
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Bolshevik
Rocky did NOT say this.
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Bolshevik
If the answer is "we handled this before"
This website is dead.
Shut it down.
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Rocky
That's not what you claimed I said when you made an erroneous characterization of my point about a sense of belonging... I can only shake my head at what you're doing and guess at why you're doing it.
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Bolshevik
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Rocky
Not taking your bait.
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Bolshevik
Anyone, besides Rocky and Wordwolf want to explain?
What are they afraid of?
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waysider
In retrospect, when I think of my time in TWI, I think of it as more of a survival experience than a belonging experience. It may have started out with a promise of belonging, but as expectations and responsibilities multiplied, I felt more and more like I was in survival mode.
Here's another way to look at it: When you finally realized you had severed your ties, did you feel a sense of loss for what you were once a part of -OR- did you feel a sense of relief to be gone?
(Yeah, I know you can never completely sever you ties, Bolshevik. That puts you in a position that comes with its own set of unique complexities.)
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Rocky
???????????????
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Bolshevik
I am trying to meet you half way. If it happened to the Wayfer, it can happen to anyone, anywhere.
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