I agree. I think both controlling people and controlling the universe is what is done when a person's boundaries extend infinitely.
Micromanage and abuse a person long enough and eventually they inherit those eyes.
With TWI they remove personal boundaries incrementally. I think the classes accomplish this in spades. Think about it: Upon graduation from the foundational class there is a whole new set of expectations pushed onto the graduate. Same with intermediate and advanced classes. Then there's the programs...whatever outreach program is the flavor of the day, and the way corps. If your dumb enough to go into the way corps (hey, I was!) then you have allowed the way international to manage dang near every aspect of your life. But even the amount of control that is exerted over advanced class grads way more than the FNC grads. It's done in baby steps but the end result is the same: the way international exerrts control over it's followers lives. To what degree depends on what you volunteer to allow them to do.
It's done in baby steps but the end result is the same
Until, one day, as you're all alone, you happen to pause, look in the mirror and, suddenly, like a burst of electrical energy, the situation becomes surreal.. And you wonder, "Who have I become?" and "How did I get here?" Like waking up in the heat of a terrible dream. A tiny glimpse of light in the exit doorway has appeared.
With TWI they remove personal boundaries incrementally. I think the classes accomplish this in spades. Think about it: Upon graduation from the foundational class there is a whole new set of expectations pushed onto the graduate. Same with intermediate and advanced classes. Then there's the programs...whatever outreach program is the flavor of the day, and the way corps. If your dumb enough to go into the way corps (hey, I was!) then you have allowed the way international to manage dang near every aspect of your life. But even the amount of control that is exerted over advanced class grads way more than the FNC grads. It's done in baby steps but the end result is the same: the way international exerrts control over it's followers lives. To what degree depends on what you volunteer to allow them to do.
I'm thinking of each time you interpret tongues or door to door harassment. You have to push past the discomfort, every single time. Or teaching at fellowship, you're pushing your mind into a mold as you do it. Leadership has to tell you if there were results or not, because you never see any that mean anything. That uncomfortable feeling becomes normal. Always uncomfortable and stressful, but familiar and normal.
. . . To what degree depends on what you volunteer to allow them to do.
The beginning of Squid Games was a good example. Where the gentleman offered you money to slap you in the face. Seemed like a small price. How much will you trade to accept abuse?
A tiny glimpse of light in the exit doorway has appeared.
By then, many have realized (albeit temporarily) their sense of belonging is inextricably linked to the cult. The duration of that belonging depends on one's tolerance for control/abuse by the cult leaders.
Until, one day, as you're all alone, you happen to pause, look in the mirror and, suddenly, like a burst of electrical energy, the situation becomes surreal.. And you wonder, "Who have I become?" and "How did I get here?" Like waking up in the heat of a terrible dream. A tiny glimpse of light in the exit doorway has appeared.
By then, many have realized (albeit temporarily) their sense of belonging is inextricably linked to the cult. The duration of that belonging depends on one's tolerance for control/abuse by the cult leaders.
Are you claiming people felt the BELONGED in the cult?
From what I read on this site, problems outside the cult. i.e. The churches sucked.
Again, seriously? Belonging IS something that has been written about before... on GSC.
IF you need any insight on where to find sociologist or psychologist research on the subject, just ask. Otherwise, ICSA might be a good place to start.
Again, seriously? Belonging IS something that has been written about before... on GSC.
IF you need any insight on where to find sociologist or psychologist research on the subject, just ask. Otherwise, ICSA might be a good place to start.
Thanks for your input.
The transition from high pressure sales to belonging . . . TWI is not a shared interest in PFAL. TWIG Fellowship is not a support group.
Both may be true, but I feel a piece is missing at the moment.
Again, seriously? Belonging IS something that has been written about before... on GSC.
IF you need any insight on where to find sociologist or psychologist research on the subject, just ask. Otherwise, ICSA might be a good place to start.
Freedom.
From ICSA.
People who like belonging don't like freedom so much.
I remember taking a "Belonging" course as a teacher and it made me uneasy. Students need to "belong"? That's stupid. I get they hate learning . . Wait, why are they here?
PFAL is a class that reduces critical thinking, (if you choose to accept it) . . . You're reduced ability to think reduces your Individual freedom. . . Belonging and security becomes more important.
You're pushed toward the bottom of the hierarchy of needs.
I remember taking a "Belonging" course as a teacher and it made me uneasy. Students need to "belong"? That's stupid. I get they hate learning . . Wait, why are they here?
PFAL is a class that reduces critical thinking, (if you choose to accept it) . . . You're reduced ability to think reduces your Individual freedom. . . Belonging and security becomes more important.
You're pushed toward the bottom of the hierarchy of needs.
Why do you think universities have fraternities and sororities?
When I was in high school, I went to the Bronx High School of Science. Entrance was by competitive exam- you had to try to get in, and take their exam to attempt to get in. Most students blew the exam. (When I was in the 8th grade, I was in a Special Progress class, where most of the class took the exam. I was the only one that made it. The next year, encouraged someone made it, everyone took the exam. None of them made it.) Anyone who went there knew that the school would be unusually difficult. None of us went there if we "hated learning." Lots of us, including myself, belonged to clubs at the school. None of that computes, according to Bolshevik.
In college, I was in a fraternity. It was (and still is) a SERVICE fraternity. It's not dedicated to parties and drinking, it's dedicated to public service and community service, and is mentioned on resumes because lots of people know it as a good training grounds for workers, for volunteers, etc. They also have leadership training programs. It's considered a sign of good citizenship in some circles, and Eagle Scouts are recommended to consider joining when they age out of the Scouts and go to college. So, why did I help set up my college's fraternity chapter in the first place? According to Bolshevik, it assisted in "the rise of the midwits."
Of course, another possibility is that- since I have a genius IQ and studied Sociology and can offer alternate explanations, and Bol never studied Sociology- that Bolshevik is incorrect and other explanations cover it. At the moment, I'm not exactly eager to lay it all out AGAIN (we've been through this before) for someone who insults me so freely and thoughtlessly.
Belonging? I was so "unattached" after TWI that I felt like a real drifter. So lost and unable to make decisions, even of what to eat. Living in a country not where born, with few people I knew, family elsewhere and I'd broken ties (one of my family, not parent, is particularly horrible - just is), rejected by all my TWI "family." Eventually, I found a much-needed sense of belonging by getting naturalised in the country in which I was living.
We all need to "belong" somewhere. In our community, our family, our church, our "group" of whatever we enjoy doing. We don't have to be likeminded, but we do have links in common. I volunteer with a group that works with homeless people. Even the homeless folk have their own community, in which they "belong," and sometimes that's why they find it hard to leave and resume "normal" lives. Few friends/contacts outside that community.
The ones who don't seem to have a community, the "loners" who don't seem to belong anywhere - those are ones to watch out for. They can become increasingly dysfunctional and that can lead to increasingly antisocial behaviour.
When I was in high school, I went to the Bronx High School of Science. Entrance was by competitive exam- you had to try to get in, and take their exam to attempt to get in. Most students blew the exam. (When I was in the 8th grade, I was in a Special Progress class, where most of the class took the exam. I was the only one that made it. The next year, encouraged someone made it, everyone took the exam. None of them made it.) Anyone who went there knew that the school would be unusually difficult. None of us went there if we "hated learning." Lots of us, including myself, belonged to clubs at the school. None of that computes, according to Bolshevik.
In college, I was in a fraternity. It was (and still is) a SERVICE fraternity. It's not dedicated to parties and drinking, it's dedicated to public service and community service, and is mentioned on resumes because lots of people know it as a good training grounds for workers, for volunteers, etc. They also have leadership training programs. It's considered a sign of good citizenship in some circles, and Eagle Scouts are recommended to consider joining when they age out of the Scouts and go to college. So, why did I help set up my college's fraternity chapter in the first place? According to Bolshevik, it assisted in "the rise of the midwits."
Of course, another possibility is that- since I have a genius IQ and studied Sociology and can offer alternate explanations, and Bol never studied Sociology- that Bolshevik is incorrect and other explanations cover it. At the moment, I'm not exactly eager to lay it all out AGAIN (we've been through this before) for someone who insults me so freely and thoughtlessly.
No, I have degrees in the hard sciences. I resented having to dumb things down so we can all belong. What I witnessed, I witnessed. Sorry Not Sorry if that was offensive.
Midwits, is not a term nor concept I came up with. Nor is the dumbing down of universities. I don't claim to originate that idea.
IQs having been dropping for decades, maybe longer. Not my idea.
I constantly said on this website over a decade ago, "Cult is Family". A certain Troll from this website capitalized on that. I have asked about overcoming the childish sense of belonging.
Belonging? I was so "unattached" after TWI that I felt like a real drifter. So lost and unable to make decisions, even of what to eat. Living in a country not where born, with few people I knew, family elsewhere and I'd broken ties (one of my family, not parent, is particularly horrible - just is), rejected by all my TWI "family." Eventually, I found a much-needed sense of belonging by getting naturalised in the country in which I was living.
We all need to "belong" somewhere. In our community, our family, our church, our "group" of whatever we enjoy doing. We don't have to be likeminded, but we do have links in common. I volunteer with a group that works with homeless people. Even the homeless folk have their own community, in which they "belong," and sometimes that's why they find it hard to leave and resume "normal" lives. Few friends/contacts outside that community.
The ones who don't seem to have a community, the "loners" who don't seem to belong anywhere - those are ones to watch out for. They can become increasingly dysfunctional and that can lead to increasingly antisocial behaviour.
We all need to belong somewhere.
I live near a military base. People are coming and going all the time. I'm aware the group is always changing. Some never bother to get to know others, they'll be gone soon.
The idea of God and Religion is a narrative, which everyone from all time periods can look at and feel they belong and connected. God is Dead. That narrative goes with it.
If I point out downsides to belonging . . . such as attachment . . . why is that an issue?
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Bolshevik
Scripture, The Bible, is not *a* language. "It interprets itself", though.
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OldSkool
With TWI they remove personal boundaries incrementally. I think the classes accomplish this in spades. Think about it: Upon graduation from the foundational class there is a whole new set of expectations pushed onto the graduate. Same with intermediate and advanced classes. Then there's the programs...whatever outreach program is the flavor of the day, and the way corps. If your dumb enough to go into the way corps (hey, I was!) then you have allowed the way international to manage dang near every aspect of your life. But even the amount of control that is exerted over advanced class grads way more than the FNC grads. It's done in baby steps but the end result is the same: the way international exerrts control over it's followers lives. To what degree depends on what you volunteer to allow them to do.
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waysider
Until, one day, as you're all alone, you happen to pause, look in the mirror and, suddenly, like a burst of electrical energy, the situation becomes surreal.. And you wonder, "Who have I become?" and "How did I get here?" Like waking up in the heat of a terrible dream. A tiny glimpse of light in the exit doorway has appeared.
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Bolshevik
I'm thinking of each time you interpret tongues or door to door harassment. You have to push past the discomfort, every single time. Or teaching at fellowship, you're pushing your mind into a mold as you do it. Leadership has to tell you if there were results or not, because you never see any that mean anything. That uncomfortable feeling becomes normal. Always uncomfortable and stressful, but familiar and normal.
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Bolshevik
The beginning of Squid Games was a good example. Where the gentleman offered you money to slap you in the face. Seemed like a small price. How much will you trade to accept abuse?
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Rocky
By then, many have realized (albeit temporarily) their sense of belonging is inextricably linked to the cult. The duration of that belonging depends on one's tolerance for control/abuse by the cult leaders.
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T-Bone
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Bolshevik
Are you claiming people felt the BELONGED in the cult?
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Rocky
Seriously? Because you were born into it, YMMV, but many of us were not born into it.
What do you understand the hook was that kept anyone in the cult for 12 years?
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Bolshevik
From what I read on this site, problems outside the cult. i.e. The churches sucked.
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Rocky
Again, seriously? Belonging IS something that has been written about before... on GSC.
IF you need any insight on where to find sociologist or psychologist research on the subject, just ask. Otherwise, ICSA might be a good place to start.
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Bolshevik
Thanks for your input.
The transition from high pressure sales to belonging . . . TWI is not a shared interest in PFAL. TWIG Fellowship is not a support group.
Both may be true, but I feel a piece is missing at the moment.
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Bolshevik
Freedom.
From ICSA.
People who like belonging don't like freedom so much.
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Bolshevik
I remember taking a "Belonging" course as a teacher and it made me uneasy. Students need to "belong"? That's stupid. I get they hate learning . . Wait, why are they here?
PFAL is a class that reduces critical thinking, (if you choose to accept it) . . . You're reduced ability to think reduces your Individual freedom. . . Belonging and security becomes more important.
You're pushed toward the bottom of the hierarchy of needs.
Edited by BolshevikThere's no "we" in Individual
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Rocky
Why do you think universities have fraternities and sororities?
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Bolshevik
To foster the rise of the midwits.
A professor is not a parent. Not your father in the *insert subject*.
Father in The Word. Was he Abraham too?
If a cult is for belonging it is a replacement for family. Cults indicate a breakdown in the larger society, don't they?
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Rocky
Dude... I'm not the enemy. Cults' lure, whether you like it or not, is the sense of belonging they provide to recruits.
Your questions neither confront ME, nor advance a position.
If you didn't sound like you have a chip on your shoulder, I might be willing to engage in discussion on those questions.
Bottom line: cults promise a sense of belonging. If they don't, people don't stay. Period.
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WordWolf
When I was in high school, I went to the Bronx High School of Science. Entrance was by competitive exam- you had to try to get in, and take their exam to attempt to get in. Most students blew the exam. (When I was in the 8th grade, I was in a Special Progress class, where most of the class took the exam. I was the only one that made it. The next year, encouraged someone made it, everyone took the exam. None of them made it.) Anyone who went there knew that the school would be unusually difficult. None of us went there if we "hated learning." Lots of us, including myself, belonged to clubs at the school. None of that computes, according to Bolshevik.
In college, I was in a fraternity. It was (and still is) a SERVICE fraternity. It's not dedicated to parties and drinking, it's dedicated to public service and community service, and is mentioned on resumes because lots of people know it as a good training grounds for workers, for volunteers, etc. They also have leadership training programs. It's considered a sign of good citizenship in some circles, and Eagle Scouts are recommended to consider joining when they age out of the Scouts and go to college. So, why did I help set up my college's fraternity chapter in the first place? According to Bolshevik, it assisted in "the rise of the midwits."
Of course, another possibility is that- since I have a genius IQ and studied Sociology and can offer alternate explanations, and Bol never studied Sociology- that Bolshevik is incorrect and other explanations cover it. At the moment, I'm not exactly eager to lay it all out AGAIN (we've been through this before) for someone who insults me so freely and thoughtlessly.
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Twinky
Belonging? I was so "unattached" after TWI that I felt like a real drifter. So lost and unable to make decisions, even of what to eat. Living in a country not where born, with few people I knew, family elsewhere and I'd broken ties (one of my family, not parent, is particularly horrible - just is), rejected by all my TWI "family." Eventually, I found a much-needed sense of belonging by getting naturalised in the country in which I was living.
We all need to "belong" somewhere. In our community, our family, our church, our "group" of whatever we enjoy doing. We don't have to be likeminded, but we do have links in common. I volunteer with a group that works with homeless people. Even the homeless folk have their own community, in which they "belong," and sometimes that's why they find it hard to leave and resume "normal" lives. Few friends/contacts outside that community.
The ones who don't seem to have a community, the "loners" who don't seem to belong anywhere - those are ones to watch out for. They can become increasingly dysfunctional and that can lead to increasingly antisocial behaviour.
We all need to belong somewhere.
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Bolshevik
Again Rocky, I don't understand your apparent hostility.
I just bashed Victor Paul Wierwille. HE thought he was a Father. Not YOU.
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Bolshevik
No, I have degrees in the hard sciences. I resented having to dumb things down so we can all belong. What I witnessed, I witnessed. Sorry Not Sorry if that was offensive.
Midwits, is not a term nor concept I came up with. Nor is the dumbing down of universities. I don't claim to originate that idea.
IQs having been dropping for decades, maybe longer. Not my idea.
I constantly said on this website over a decade ago, "Cult is Family". A certain Troll from this website capitalized on that. I have asked about overcoming the childish sense of belonging.
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Bolshevik
I live near a military base. People are coming and going all the time. I'm aware the group is always changing. Some never bother to get to know others, they'll be gone soon.
The idea of God and Religion is a narrative, which everyone from all time periods can look at and feel they belong and connected. God is Dead. That narrative goes with it.
If I point out downsides to belonging . . . such as attachment . . . why is that an issue?
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Rocky
At no point in the comment (of mine) to which you replied did I mention or even allude to vpw.
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Bolshevik
Sorry.
Victor Wierwille was the Founder of The Way International.
He started PFAL, the precursor to PFALT.
He ran a class . . . and people felt they BELONGED to HIM.
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Rocky
That's a statement of judgment, apparently not arrived at with any amount of empathy.
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