No. I saw PLENTY of people wrestle with their fears. Maybe the first time thru the class was not enough for some. I was amazed at what people did NOT hear in their first times thru. I dealt with this a lot in excellors sessions, and in private ministering.
Overcoming fears was never promised to happen in ONE taking of the class. Many people needed a little more, so I volunteered and saw the process in great detail. I think the top leaders shied away from a lot of this brute service level activity. Too bad for them; they missed out.
I don't know which sentence to pick so how about that one. Quite the art in assuming so much in every sentence.
It's not like anyone ever saw the worship manifestations have any positive effect. A simple demonstration of their practicality would have inspired some to go for it. Manifestations were no different than drinking too much at a Fraternity Party to be accepted. They were damaging, yet people kept doing it.
Why do you want me to go to that trouble, of fetching all that info?
Are you going to minister to someone with it?
Or are you just looking for "gotcha" fodder?
I think I have posted on these things in great detail in the past.
LATE ADDITION:
If you do a word search here do it on all the spellings of excellors, excellor's, and excellors'
Mike, this is not a "gotcha". If you have scripture to support your claim, now would be the time to post it. If you don't, then simply accept that it's not based on any scriptural evidence.
Or, as my Dad used to say, "Poop or get off the potty chair.".
For the record, technically, I'm not closed to the idea that someone, somewhere, is actually Speaking In Tongues, the real thing. I'm confident that everything I've seen in any group, ex-twi or not, all supposedly speaking in tongues, are nothing of the kind, and the real thing would appear VERY different. (Freed of the nonsense concept that they'd have a roomful of people speaking "tongues of angels", there would be actual foreign languages spoken.) Mind you, I'd be more than a little skeptical based on how completely I was snowed before.
I feel the same way – and there’s arguably a multifold rationale to my thought process:
1. wierwille wrongly taught each believer can operate all nine of the manifestations but that does not jive with I Corinthians 12:11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills. NKJV
2. Due to the lack of documented evidence - besides the meager anecdotal evidence offered up by some – I lean toward a cessationism theology (which is the view that the miraculous gifts of the Spirit, such as healing, tongues, and prophetic revelation, pertained to the apostolic era only, served a purpose that was unique to establishing the early church, and passed away before the canon of Scripture was closed (comp. 1 Cor. 13:8-12 with Heb. 2:3-4)
…Although I am not one to assume I can squeeze God into a tight-fitting theological box…so I think these things can still happen – but in light of my #1 reason – it would be as the Spirit distributes them individually…and I should add speaking just from my own experiences I haven’t witnessed anything that would fall into the biblical definition of genuine manifestations during my 12 years of involvement with The Way International.
3. Nowhere in Scripture are there passages that suggest the need for “excellor sessions” for the utterance manifestations. “Excellor sessions” seem more likely an attempt to train people to become proficient at mimicking an “ecstatic language” – something that has been noted in various religions for a long time. It is interesting to note that in I Corinthians 14 in certain passages Paul's usage of “tongue” in the singular...several commentaries have observed that being in the singular form it’s probably referring to the gibberish of pagan ecstatic speech – since by any acceptable linguistic definition there would not be a variety of unintelligible meaningless languages. Gibberish is gibberish.
4. And furthermore, since Paul observes the obvious purpose of every language is to communicate (I Corinthians 14: 10,11) and edify some commentaries suggest Paul continues to use the singular “tongue” to speak sarcastically in verses 14 – 17 to illustrate the foolishness and pointlessness of speaking in gibberish - the speaker himself or herself could not understand it. What benefit is there to pray to God or to praise Him without understanding what is said? No one could say “amen” to such nonsense. In verse 18 of I Cor. 14, Paul returns to using the plural “tongues” to indicate the genuine gift…
5. To put the dubious practice taught in PFAL and reinforced by “excellor sessions” in modern terms it seems more like a learned behavior to me. But that’s just my opinion.
Edited by T-Bone I used an Office app for an excel session
manifestation φανέρωσις(phanerōsis) Noun - Nominative Feminine Singular Strong's Greek 5321:A manifestation, disclosure. From phaneroo; exhibition, i.e. expression, a bestowment.
Cognate: 5321phanérōsis– a manifestation, a "coming tolight."See 5319(phaneroō).
Amplified version:
7But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit [the spiritual illumination and the enabling of the Holy Spirit] for the common good.8To one is given through the [Holy] Spirit [the power to speak] the message of wisdom, and to another [the power to express] the word of knowledgeandunderstanding according to the same Spirit;9to another [wonder-working] faith [is given] by the same [Holy] Spirit, and to another the [extraordinary] gifts of healings by the one Spirit;10and to another the working of[a]miracles, and to another prophecy [foretelling the future, speaking a new message from God to the people], and to another discernment of spirits [the ability to distinguish sound, godly doctrine from the deceptive doctrine of man-made religions and cults], to anothervariouskinds of [unknown] tongues, and to another interpretation of tongues.11All these things [the gifts, the achievements, the abilities, the empowering] are brought about by one and the same [Holy] Spirit, distributing to each one individually just as He chooses.
(I underlined the "familiar" bits.)
Now hang on a bit. What's this about the expressing of words of Wisdom, etc?
Step back a bit further. Verse 7 states these obviousnesses are "for the common good" (same in several versions). That's the common good of your friends, neighbours, colleagues, city; everyone, everywhere. It's not limited to a fellowship or church setting. So why do we suppose these manifestations operate only in private or in a TWI-setting?
Take a look at other people, outside of Wayfer groupthink. You may well find that there are some people who seem extraordinarily wise, whose words offer comfort, guidance, etc - who always seem to know just the right thing to say. It's their background, training, thinking patterns, all of that - and something else. God has seeded, or salted, his people through all walks of life. Let's face it - we all need someone wise to turn to.
Same with every other manifestation. Even "gifts of healings" whether or not they believe in God, Jesus or that the earth is flat. Soothing words of wisdom can operate just as well in conjunction with gifts of healings - see the rise of "talking therapies" these days, where we talk with trained counsellors, psychologists, etc or just mentors, to help us through difficult times.
TWI picked on the noisy stuff because it was an attempt to distinguish themselves.
They forgot what might be more significant - being wise, having vision for the future [prophecy], discernment [getting a handle on the motives of others] etc.
This thread relates to TWI's newest class. Do you think they'll manage to remember that there are other people out there upon whom God's blessings fall, believers and unbelievers alike? D'ya think they'll understand that "common good" relates to everyone - and not "common with distinction" meaning only Wayfers?
manifestation φανέρωσις(phanerōsis) Noun - Nominative Feminine Singular Strong's Greek 5321:A manifestation, disclosure. From phaneroo; exhibition, i.e. expression, a bestowment.
Cognate: 5321phanérōsis– a manifestation, a "coming tolight."See 5319(phaneroō).
Amplified version:
7But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit [the spiritual illumination and the enabling of the Holy Spirit] for the common good.8To one is given through the [Holy] Spirit [the power to speak] the message of wisdom, and to another [the power to express] the word of knowledgeandunderstanding according to the same Spirit;9to another [wonder-working] faith [is given] by the same [Holy] Spirit, and to another the [extraordinary] gifts of healings by the one Spirit;10and to another the working of[a]miracles, and to another prophecy [foretelling the future, speaking a new message from God to the people], and to another discernment of spirits [the ability to distinguish sound, godly doctrine from the deceptive doctrine of man-made religions and cults], to anothervariouskinds of [unknown] tongues, and to another interpretation of tongues.11All these things [the gifts, the achievements, the abilities, the empowering] are brought about by one and the same [Holy] Spirit, distributing to each one individually just as He chooses.
(I underlined the "familiar" bits.)
Now hang on a bit. What's this about the expressing of words of Wisdom, etc?
Step back a bit further. Verse 7 states these obviousnesses are "for the common good" (same in several versions). That's the common good of your friends, neighbours, colleagues, city; everyone, everywhere. It's not limited to a fellowship or church setting. So why do we suppose these manifestations operate only in private or in a TWI-setting?
Take a look at other people, outside of Wayfer groupthink. You may well find that there are some people who seem extraordinarily wise, whose words offer comfort, guidance, etc - who always seem to know just the right thing to say. It's their background, training, thinking patterns, all of that - and something else. God has seeded, or salted, his people through all walks of life. Let's face it - we all need someone wise to turn to.
Same with every other manifestation. Even "gifts of healings" whether or not they believe in God, Jesus or that the earth is flat. Soothing words of wisdom can operate just as well in conjunction with gifts of healings - see the rise of "talking therapies" these days, where we talk with trained counsellors, psychologists, etc or just mentors, to help us through difficult times.
TWI picked on the noisy stuff because it was an attempt to distinguish themselves.
They forgot what might be more significant - being wise, having vision for the future [prophecy], discernment [getting a handle on the motives of others] etc.
This thread relates to TWI's newest class. Do you think they'll manage to remember that there are other people out there upon whom God's blessings fall, believers and unbelievers alike? D'ya think they'll understand that "common good" relates to everyone - and not "common with distinction" meaning only Wayfers?
Rocky, Thank you. I trust more than one person shares your opinion, but you and Word Wolf are the only ones I know to say it out loud (that the conversation prompted a change in opinion).
Others...
See, when I was a believer, if someone asked me the Biblical basis for a belief, I would cite a chapter and verse with maybe some exposition. "What is the scriptural basis for excellor sessions?" If the answer isn't "here's the chapter and verse," then it's either, "I don't know," which is fair, and "there is none," which is accurate.
WW: I accept that we are not on the same page and I am grateful that you approached this subject the way I did at first: as a believer who looked at the evidence and realized what we did was not the same as what we thought we were doing. My post extrapolated from a set of facts. My extrapolation is arguable. The facts are not. Thank you for seeing the distinction. [If I'm reading right, this applies to T-Bone as well, but I need to read their posts more carefully]
See, when I was a believer, if someone asked me the Biblical basis for a belief, I would cite a chapter and verse with maybe some exposition. "What is the scriptural basis for excellor sessions?" If the answer isn't "here's the chapter and verse," then it's either, "I don't know," which is fair, and "there is none," which is accurate.
. . .
No . . . the answer is "It was handled in The Class".
When not be clear in the class? Why clues? What's the point of a CLASS?
And yes we know PFAL made VPW AF-FLUENT.
*cue duck*
“What's the point of a CLASS?”
Bolshevik, great question!
And that’s the $64,000 question!
And it’s a crucial question to an important issue…but the answer may vary depending on who you ask:
What’s the point of PFAL?
Loyal TWI-follower: PFAL teaches how to tap into power for abundant living.
Disenchanted TWI-follower: Why did I have to pay for an infomercial on the Bible?
TWI-cult survivor: PFAL is The Way International’s entry-level indoctrination program.
There are no clues or hidden messages to help one delve even deeper into tapping “the power for abundant living”. But there are subtle manipulative and controlling tactics in PFAL that most new students are not aware of. Besides all the Scripture twisting, logical fallacies, interpolations, pontificating, fabricated/embellished anecdotes throughout PFAL there’s also the delicate social pressure of the class body – the degrees of influence exerted by the grads and even other new students are also a subliminal call for conformity to the group.
While we're at it, there is no Biblical basis for "fluency in SIT."
There is a skeptical basis for "increasingly convincing bullsh!t," but that is totally the same damn not the same thing.
I really don't wanna get into the SIT as taught by TWI is false/true becuse (to me at least) it's too subjective to come to a definitive conclusion simply because there are too many instances to evaluate. In the case of the way international though I have to say their practices with SIT is about as out to lunch as you get. For example: Speaking in tongues is a language given by God that the speaker personally cannot speak, though the language may be understood by people present in the room or maybe not. SIT is perfect prayer where the intercession is given by God because we really don't know everything we should pray for. Yet the way international directs their followers to SIT for specific circumstances or people by imagining what you want to happen while speaking in tongues. If that's not the mother of all contradictions I don't know what is. Excellor session are useless. I've participated in and lead many excellor sessions. The only thing they really accomplish is to put public pressure on new individuals to produce results on demand. Nothing biblical about them at all.
No need to get into it. I think the only reason to bring it up here is in recognition of the role of shared experiences in group cohesion. I don't foresee this new class being any different from the original in that regard.
By the way, if anyone is interested in Vince Finnegan's variation on all this, it's in a class called "His Story: God's Purpose of the Ages." The class materials are online and free. Speaking in tongues is about 2/3 of the way through the class, which I think is cool in that it takes the emphasis off the gimmick at the end.
I'll post a link to this FREE class when I have time to look it up.
No need to get into it. I think the only reason to bring it up here is in recognition of the role of shared experiences in group cohesion. I don't foresee this new class being any different from the original in that regard.
By the way, if anyone is interested in Vince Finnegan's variation on all this, it's in a class called "His Story: God's Purpose of the Ages." The class materials are online and free. Speaking in tongues is about 2/3 of the way through the class, which I think is cool in that it takes the emphasis off the gimmick at the end.
I'll post a link to this FREE class when I have time to look it up.
Yes!! I would love to check it out. Thanks in advance!
I really don't wanna get into the SIT as taught by TWI is false/true becuse (to me at least) it's too subjective to come to a definitive conclusion simply because there are too many instances to evaluate. In the case of the way international though I have to say their practices with SIT is about as out to lunch as you get. For example: Speaking in tongues is a language given by God that the speaker personally cannot speak, though the language may be understood by people present in the room or maybe not. SIT is perfect prayer where the intercession is given by God because we really don't know everything we should pray for. Yet the way international directs their followers to SIT for specific circumstances or people by imagining what you want to happen while speaking in tongues. If that's not the mother of all contradictions I don't know what is. Excellor session are useless. I've participated in and lead many excellor sessions. The only thing they really accomplish is to put public pressure on new individuals to produce results on demand. Nothing biblical about them at all.
The Prodigal Son comes to mind. Did he follow any script? What was he praised for?
Your contradictory statements are:
Step 1) Obey, you are not autonomous but an extension of leadership's will.
Step 2) Assume others should obey. Their autonomy threatens your non-autonomy.
The Prodigal Son comes to mind. Did he follow any script? What was he praised for?
Your contradictory statements are:
Step 1) Obey, you are not autonomous but an extension of leadership's will.
Step 2) Assume others should obey. Their autonomy threatens your non-autonomy.
Im not really sure that anything with TWI allows autonomy any longer. The fellowships were all supposed to be self-governing, but we know they are ruled by the nearest way corps guy with directions coming from HQ. It's pretty much all micro managed.
Good point on the prodigal son. Excellor sessions offer a script of sorts. Participate and even if you don't wind up speaking in tongues for real then it can easily be faked and then the excellor session leader can tell them they will develop fluency as they SIT much and often. Question: If God gives a language that is supernatural in nature and bypasses our five senses (There are many more senses than five ...just speaking way lingo) how then does one develop FLUENCY>>>>?
Question: If God gives a language that is supernatural in nature and bypasses our five senses ... how then does one develop FLUENCY>>>>?
I frequently wondered that. Never got an answer beyond: If you can make more sounds, then God can give you more "words" to say.
Yeah, noticed a lot of that pre-Pentecost and thereafter. Even that Paul. Said he SIT more than other people. Must have had lots of practice sessions. Hmph, Not!
Doesn't even take into account that you might already know and even be fluent in several languages very different from your mother tongue.
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Bolshevik
Scripture, The Bible, is not *a* language. "It interprets itself", though.
T-Bone
Excerpts from the first draft for a totally revised burnt orange book “Power For Materialistic Living Today”, page 3, Introduction: The Materialistic Life …This post literally changed my life. My
Raf
It is almost impossible to overstate how much this reeks of bullcrap. I'll be gentle: If Euclidian geometry were wrong on one point, Euclidian geometry would be perfectly content to remove
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Bolshevik
I don't know which sentence to pick so how about that one. Quite the art in assuming so much in every sentence.
It's not like anyone ever saw the worship manifestations have any positive effect. A simple demonstration of their practicality would have inspired some to go for it. Manifestations were no different than drinking too much at a Fraternity Party to be accepted. They were damaging, yet people kept doing it.
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Mike
Yes. I asked that question a dozen different ways in the 1970s.
Why didn't you?
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waysider
And you somehow know I didn't?
What is the scriptural basis?
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Mike
Why do you want me to go to that trouble, of fetching all that info?
Are you going to minister to someone with it?
Or are you just looking for "gotcha" fodder?
I think I have posted on these things in great detail in the past.
LATE ADDITION:
Edited by MikeIf you do a word search here do it on all the spellings of excellors, excellor's, and excellors'
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waysider
Mike, this is not a "gotcha". If you have scripture to support your claim, now would be the time to post it. If you don't, then simply accept that it's not based on any scriptural evidence.
Or, as my Dad used to say, "Poop or get off the potty chair.".
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T-Bone
I feel the same way – and there’s arguably a multifold rationale to my thought process:
1. wierwille wrongly taught each believer can operate all nine of the manifestations but that does not jive with I Corinthians 12:11
But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills. NKJV
2. Due to the lack of documented evidence - besides the meager anecdotal evidence offered up by some – I lean toward a cessationism theology (which is the view that the miraculous gifts of the Spirit, such as healing, tongues, and prophetic revelation, pertained to the apostolic era only, served a purpose that was unique to establishing the early church, and passed away before the canon of Scripture was closed (comp. 1 Cor. 13:8-12 with Heb. 2:3-4)
…Although I am not one to assume I can squeeze God into a tight-fitting theological box…so I think these things can still happen – but in light of my #1 reason – it would be as the Spirit distributes them individually…and I should add speaking just from my own experiences I haven’t witnessed anything that would fall into the biblical definition of genuine manifestations during my 12 years of involvement with The Way International.
3. Nowhere in Scripture are there passages that suggest the need for “excellor sessions” for the utterance manifestations. “Excellor sessions” seem more likely an attempt to train people to become proficient at mimicking an “ecstatic language” – something that has been noted in various religions for a long time. It is interesting to note that in I Corinthians 14 in certain passages Paul's usage of “tongue” in the singular...several commentaries have observed that being in the singular form it’s probably referring to the gibberish of pagan ecstatic speech – since by any acceptable linguistic definition there would not be a variety of unintelligible meaningless languages. Gibberish is gibberish.
4. And furthermore, since Paul observes the obvious purpose of every language is to communicate (I Corinthians 14: 10,11) and edify some commentaries suggest Paul continues to use the singular “tongue” to speak sarcastically in verses 14 – 17 to illustrate the foolishness and pointlessness of speaking in gibberish - the speaker himself or herself could not understand it. What benefit is there to pray to God or to praise Him without understanding what is said? No one could say “amen” to such nonsense. In verse 18 of I Cor. 14, Paul returns to using the plural “tongues” to indicate the genuine gift…
5. To put the dubious practice taught in PFAL and reinforced by “excellor sessions” in modern terms it seems more like a learned behavior to me. But that’s just my opinion.
Edited by T-BoneI used an Office app for an excel session
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waysider
This right here.
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Rocky
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Twinky
Manifestation = obviousness.
manifestation
φανέρωσις (phanerōsis)
Noun - Nominative Feminine Singular
Strong's Greek 5321: A manifestation, disclosure. From phaneroo; exhibition, i.e. expression, a bestowment.
Cognate: 5321 phanérōsis – a manifestation, a "coming to light." See 5319 (phaneroō).
Amplified version:
7But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit [the spiritual illumination and the enabling of the Holy Spirit] for the common good. 8To one is given through the [Holy] Spirit [the power to speak] the message of wisdom, and to another [the power to express] the word of knowledge and understanding according to the same Spirit; 9to another [wonder-working] faith [is given] by the same [Holy] Spirit, and to another the [extraordinary] gifts of healings by the one Spirit; 10and to another the working of [a]miracles, and to another prophecy [foretelling the future, speaking a new message from God to the people], and to another discernment of spirits [the ability to distinguish sound, godly doctrine from the deceptive doctrine of man-made religions and cults], to another various kinds of [unknown] tongues, and to another interpretation of tongues. 11All these things [the gifts, the achievements, the abilities, the empowering] are brought about by one and the same [Holy] Spirit, distributing to each one individually just as He chooses.
(I underlined the "familiar" bits.)
Now hang on a bit. What's this about the expressing of words of Wisdom, etc?
Step back a bit further. Verse 7 states these obviousnesses are "for the common good" (same in several versions). That's the common good of your friends, neighbours, colleagues, city; everyone, everywhere. It's not limited to a fellowship or church setting. So why do we suppose these manifestations operate only in private or in a TWI-setting?
Take a look at other people, outside of Wayfer groupthink. You may well find that there are some people who seem extraordinarily wise, whose words offer comfort, guidance, etc - who always seem to know just the right thing to say. It's their background, training, thinking patterns, all of that - and something else. God has seeded, or salted, his people through all walks of life. Let's face it - we all need someone wise to turn to.
Same with every other manifestation. Even "gifts of healings" whether or not they believe in God, Jesus or that the earth is flat. Soothing words of wisdom can operate just as well in conjunction with gifts of healings - see the rise of "talking therapies" these days, where we talk with trained counsellors, psychologists, etc or just mentors, to help us through difficult times.
TWI picked on the noisy stuff because it was an attempt to distinguish themselves.
They forgot what might be more significant - being wise, having vision for the future [prophecy], discernment [getting a handle on the motives of others] etc.
This thread relates to TWI's newest class. Do you think they'll manage to remember that there are other people out there upon whom God's blessings fall, believers and unbelievers alike? D'ya think they'll understand that "common good" relates to everyone - and not "common with distinction" meaning only Wayfers?
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OldSkool
Thank you for posting this. Very nicely said.
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Raf
Rocky, Thank you. I trust more than one person shares your opinion, but you and Word Wolf are the only ones I know to say it out loud (that the conversation prompted a change in opinion).
Others...
See, when I was a believer, if someone asked me the Biblical basis for a belief, I would cite a chapter and verse with maybe some exposition. "What is the scriptural basis for excellor sessions?" If the answer isn't "here's the chapter and verse," then it's either, "I don't know," which is fair, and "there is none," which is accurate.
WW: I accept that we are not on the same page and I am grateful that you approached this subject the way I did at first: as a believer who looked at the evidence and realized what we did was not the same as what we thought we were doing. My post extrapolated from a set of facts. My extrapolation is arguable. The facts are not. Thank you for seeing the distinction. [If I'm reading right, this applies to T-Bone as well, but I need to read their posts more carefully]
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Raf
While we're at it, there is no Biblical basis for "fluency in SIT."
There is a skeptical basis for "increasingly convincing bullsh!t," but that is
totally the same damnnot the same thing.Link to comment
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Bolshevik
No . . . the answer is "It was handled in The Class".
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T-Bone
“What's the point of a CLASS?”
Bolshevik, great question!
And that’s the $64,000 question!
And it’s a crucial question to an important issue…but the answer may vary depending on who you ask:
What’s the point of PFAL?
Loyal TWI-follower: PFAL teaches how to tap into power for abundant living.
Disenchanted TWI-follower: Why did I have to pay for an infomercial on the Bible?
TWI-cult survivor: PFAL is The Way International’s entry-level indoctrination program.
There are no clues or hidden messages to help one delve even deeper into tapping “the power for abundant living”. But there are subtle manipulative and controlling tactics in PFAL that most new students are not aware of. Besides all the Scripture twisting, logical fallacies, interpolations, pontificating, fabricated/embellished anecdotes throughout PFAL there’s also the delicate social pressure of the class body – the degrees of influence exerted by the grads and even other new students are also a subliminal call for conformity to the group.
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OldSkool
I really don't wanna get into the SIT as taught by TWI is false/true becuse (to me at least) it's too subjective to come to a definitive conclusion simply because there are too many instances to evaluate. In the case of the way international though I have to say their practices with SIT is about as out to lunch as you get. For example: Speaking in tongues is a language given by God that the speaker personally cannot speak, though the language may be understood by people present in the room or maybe not. SIT is perfect prayer where the intercession is given by God because we really don't know everything we should pray for. Yet the way international directs their followers to SIT for specific circumstances or people by imagining what you want to happen while speaking in tongues. If that's not the mother of all contradictions I don't know what is. Excellor session are useless. I've participated in and lead many excellor sessions. The only thing they really accomplish is to put public pressure on new individuals to produce results on demand. Nothing biblical about them at all.
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Raf
No need to get into it. I think the only reason to bring it up here is in recognition of the role of shared experiences in group cohesion. I don't foresee this new class being any different from the original in that regard.
By the way, if anyone is interested in Vince Finnegan's variation on all this, it's in a class called "His Story: God's Purpose of the Ages." The class materials are online and free. Speaking in tongues is about 2/3 of the way through the class, which I think is cool in that it takes the emphasis off the gimmick at the end.
I'll post a link to this FREE class when I have time to look it up.
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OldSkool
Yes!! I would love to check it out. Thanks in advance!
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Bolshevik
The Prodigal Son comes to mind. Did he follow any script? What was he praised for?
Your contradictory statements are:
Step 1) Obey, you are not autonomous but an extension of leadership's will.
Step 2) Assume others should obey. Their autonomy threatens your non-autonomy.
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Bolshevik
THE WORD OF GOD IS THE WILL OF GOD
That never sounded authoritarian to me until now.
But if WORD = WILL that means his will interprets itself. That's gonna be a tense funeral.
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modcat5
Purpose of the Ages: A Love Story
Vince Finnegan's foundational class.
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Rocky
God loves you and has called you... but somewhere along the line, if you step out of line, you lose your salvation.
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Bolshevik
He makes a reference to a football team in segment 4. He is interpreting the words of people in the same fashion he reads the Bible.
Scripture interprets itself.
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OldSkool
Im not really sure that anything with TWI allows autonomy any longer. The fellowships were all supposed to be self-governing, but we know they are ruled by the nearest way corps guy with directions coming from HQ. It's pretty much all micro managed.
Good point on the prodigal son. Excellor sessions offer a script of sorts. Participate and even if you don't wind up speaking in tongues for real then it can easily be faked and then the excellor session leader can tell them they will develop fluency as they SIT much and often. Question: If God gives a language that is supernatural in nature and bypasses our five senses (There are many more senses than five ...just speaking way lingo) how then does one develop FLUENCY>>>>?
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Twinky
I frequently wondered that. Never got an answer beyond: If you can make more sounds, then God can give you more "words" to say.
Yeah, noticed a lot of that pre-Pentecost and thereafter. Even that Paul. Said he SIT more than other people. Must have had lots of practice sessions. Hmph, Not!
Doesn't even take into account that you might already know and even be fluent in several languages very different from your mother tongue.
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