"A 1973 experimental study highlighted the existence of two basic types of glossolalia: a static form which tends to a somewhatcoaction to repetitivenessand a more dynamic one which tends tofree associationof speech-like elements."[73][70]
Even more so the intermediate class. A a Twig Fellowship.
The Manifestions were human torture. There was a sadistic element to them.
The twi landscape changed a great deal after the 1988-1989 split that lost 80% of the membership.
Before that, the classes and meetings were comfortable because they were more organic and let people make them comfortable. And the people that grew twi were generally quality Christians. Once they were gone, there was the twi that you knew- mechanistic and controlling (a lot moreso than before.)
People often got swept into twi and enjoyed their time there. The classes were billed as a big part, and talked up as critical, so people expected to go through them- and many came away with stories of what they overcame to take the classes, more like a badge of honor than a millstone around the neck. Sometimes, a member would volunteer to pay for the class fee for a new person who seemed unable to raise the money, or gave him/her a new Bible when the class started.
When things are like that, getting to sessions 8-12 gets elements of excitement as well as anxiety. Nobody wants to disappoint a group making them happy, and nobody wanted to feel left out. With 4 classes ironing out hesitations, most people had no trouble beginning to, say, "speak in tongues" when it was time. Most of the remainder moved along as soon as someone running the class addressed them specifically (while everyone was speaking and nobody was looking), and a tiny handful had to be worked with afterwards. vpw himself had to be worked on afterwards like the remedial student he was, when JE Stiles taught him and spent hours working with him.
That doesn't even count those who were already "speaking in tongues" before taking that class, due to being too young to take it or having to wait for an official class. So, no pressure for those people.
We all WANTED to believe. We all were invited into a group of nice people who believed. They generally didn't want us to have anxiety or problems. That starts setting the stage, and sessions 8-12 finished the job.
I would say the class series does one thing very well. It brainwashes the students to the point they will not trust another Christian organization or group of people as authentic genuine and accurate or worth collaborating with on anything.
How?
By first pillaging Bullingers material to present all the Word interprets itself BS. Notice the indirection there to avoid responsibility for a translation.
At the same time we are introduced to literal translations according to usage.
Commentaries that aren’t commentaries made by infallible men. No these were God breathed translations from Himself beyond any questioning.
Natural knowledge is reasoned spiritual knowledge is “ascertained”.
Language of elevation of status or position that is followed by language of control.
The subtle language and concepts introduced by the class don’t produce the claims of the class about prosperity, harmony, etc. but they do introduce mental footholds of control.
VP said if you can’t trust them about how many were crucified with Jesus how can you trust them about the greater truths of eternal life?
NO. I can’t trust VP due to the fruit of his life, which Jesus instructed me to use as a ruler.
I can’t trust the Way because they have never got to that point regarding the founder. Instead they double down whitewash and run with the people in power.
The twi landscape changed a great deal after the 1988-1989 split that lost 80% of the membership.
Before that, the classes and meetings were comfortable because they were more organic and let people make them comfortable. And the people that grew twi were generally quality Christians. Once they were gone, there was the twi that you knew- mechanistic and controlling (a lot moreso than before.)
People often got swept into twi and enjoyed their time there. The classes were billed as a big part, and talked up as critical, so people expected to go through them- and many came away with stories of what they overcame to take the classes, more like a badge of honor than a millstone around the neck. Sometimes, a member would volunteer to pay for the class fee for a new person who seemed unable to raise the money, or gave him/her a new Bible when the class started.
When things are like that, getting to sessions 8-12 gets elements of excitement as well as anxiety. Nobody wants to disappoint a group making them happy, and nobody wanted to feel left out. With 4 classes ironing out hesitations, most people had no trouble beginning to, say, "speak in tongues" when it was time. Most of the remainder moved along as soon as someone running the class addressed them specifically (while everyone was speaking and nobody was looking), and a tiny handful had to be worked with afterwards. vpw himself had to be worked on afterwards like the remedial student he was, when JE Stiles taught him and spent hours working with him.
That doesn't even count those who were already "speaking in tongues" before taking that class, due to being too young to take it or having to wait for an official class. So, no pressure for those people.
We all WANTED to believe. We all were invited into a group of nice people who believed. They generally didn't want us to have anxiety or problems. That starts setting the stage, and sessions 8-12 finished the job.
Excellent points to think about, WordWolf!
In my opinion those visible changes reflected a tightening up of the PFAL support system (aka the Twig fellowships). I noticed a distinct difference in the two fellowships I was involved with my first year in the ministry (1974 New York). The girl I was dating took me to her Twig on Long Island run by Sammy P. It was very lively, loving, engaging, and inspiring. But after I took the class the branch coordinator Donald L. talked to me about a new Twig starting up in Queens closer to my home and said they could use my help.
That second Twig was run by the book. And when I say it was run by the book, I mean by strict adherence to the PFAL book. Fellowship usual felt more mechanical and perfunctory. When I went into the Family corps in 1984 it was disappointingly reminiscent of that second Twig. The curriculum revolved around PFAL. The unvarnished truth is that ministry-wide PFAL was considered the touchstone of truth (FYI that’s a metaphor for any physical or intellectual measure by which the validity or merit of a concept can be tested – similar to saying “acid test” or “litmus test”…and btw, I didn’t make up that idea – I actually read it in a Way Mag !).
Your statements: “And the people that grew twi were generally quality Christians. Once they were gone, there was the twi that you knew- mechanistic and controlling” – speak to me of TWI’s ever-encroaching nature – that would stifle inspiration and thoughtful reflection. The restrictive mindset that PFAL encouraged…promoted tended to pigeonhole a grad as a PFAL-loop – continuing a certain process…the end of which is connected to the beginning – now as a grad, you go out there and get another person in the class…each one reach one. Similar to the secret message decoded in the movie A Christmas Story fyi boys and girls using the Grease Spot Secret Decoder Ring you’ll find out the hidden message in PFAL is "Take More PFAL".
I have no doubt there were many genuine, loving, inspiring Christians in TWI. But I also believe there was a symbiotic relationship involving interaction between two different entities – perhaps neither one fully realizing that…I think it’s possible for a genuine Christian to be deceived by a pseudo-Christian cult-leader and in some Bizarro way the relationship is mutually “beneficial”. The Christian gets to play church and feel special and needed and the cult reaps the benefits of their time, money, talents, resources. To be honest, I never pictured myself as a leader in TWI – but I dutifully followed the TWI-playbook: go WOW, go in the corps, run PFAL classes, teach PFAL stuff, until death do us part. Sorry slipped into my old TWI-marriage vows…yes, it’s true – I married TWI…but as of 1986 I am officially divorced…and to the Twig coordinator of my second Twig I bear no animosity – I kind of identify with him in some ways. Pushed into doing something unfamiliar…uninteresting…unfulfilling because that’s the way we do it in The Way.
The twi landscape changed a great deal after the 1988-1989 split that lost 80% of the membership.
Before that, the classes and meetings were comfortable because they were more organic and let people make them comfortable. And the people that grew twi were generally quality Christians. Once they were gone, there was the twi that you knew- mechanistic and controlling (a lot moreso than before.)
People often got swept into twi and enjoyed their time there. The classes were billed as a big part, and talked up as critical, so people expected to go through them- and many came away with stories of what they overcame to take the classes, more like a badge of honor than a millstone around the neck. Sometimes, a member would volunteer to pay for the class fee for a new person who seemed unable to raise the money, or gave him/her a new Bible when the class started.
When things are like that, getting to sessions 8-12 gets elements of excitement as well as anxiety. Nobody wants to disappoint a group making them happy, and nobody wanted to feel left out. With 4 classes ironing out hesitations, most people had no trouble beginning to, say, "speak in tongues" when it was time. Most of the remainder moved along as soon as someone running the class addressed them specifically (while everyone was speaking and nobody was looking), and a tiny handful had to be worked with afterwards. vpw himself had to be worked on afterwards like the remedial student he was, when JE Stiles taught him and spent hours working with him.
That doesn't even count those who were already "speaking in tongues" before taking that class, due to being too young to take it or having to wait for an official class. So, no pressure for those people.
We all WANTED to believe. We all were invited into a group of nice people who believed. They generally didn't want us to have anxiety or problems. That starts setting the stage, and sessions 8-12 finished the job.
The anxiety didn't begin or end with the class. You had fellowships and excellor sessions regularly. I felt it for decades.
You were being forced to interpret on the spot random noises you had made up on the spot. The random sounds couldn't be just any random sounds either. They had to be convincing. The interpretation had rules.
As children we all knew who in children's fellowship was faking and who was not. Kids test boundaries. There were rules and they bound the mind. It could not be faked.
Speaking in Tongues in TWI was abuse. Interpretation of Tongues was indoctrination. The process was extremely constricting.
The anxiety didn't begin or end with the class. You had fellowships and excellor sessions regularly. I felt it for decades.
You were being forced to interpret on the spot random noises you had made up on the spot. The random sounds couldn't be just any random sounds either. They had to be convincing. The interpretation had rules.
Speaking in Tongues in TWI was abuse. Interpretation of Tongues was indoctrination. The process was extremely constricting.
I could not agree more, Bolshevik, and thank you for saying it just like you did.
The worship manifestations were the ultimate "how" of how TWI "brainwashed" us all.
Once they were able to convince every last one of us that we weren't faking tongues (we were, every time), they got to work convincing us we weren't faking interpretation and prophecy. The group cohesion that was accomplished by this shared self-deception was worth its weight in bullsh!t.
Whenever someone new was initiated, the entire church came to reinforce him. That's exactly like the first time I did it! No, no, no, you're not faking. It can't be counterfeited, remember?
Now on to interpretation. Here's how to fake it manifest it. We don't fake it of course. People who fake it say things like "muck and mire." If you find yourself saying "muck and mire," you're faking it. If you call God "Heavenly God," you're faking it. But if you sound like someone ran inspiration catchphrases through a Psalm-bot generator on Twitter, that's not faking it. Got it? Good. Now don't fake it! If you stumble, don't worry. It's because you've got stage fright. It's totally not because you're faking it and this practice is no more inspired of God than the average burp.
Wow, you sound exactly like the tape we just played to plant sample messages for you to emulate as you learn to fake it I did when I first interpreted. Well done! God is working in you just like He worked in everyone else in this room who totally didn't fake it like you just did because you didn't because none of us are faking it and if you shout that the emperor is naked we will ostracize you as a devil spirit possessed lying liarface and you'll be the only one to admit faking it because the rest of us totally are not.
Prophecy time! Now this is important. It's going to sound just like interpretation because it's faked in the exact same way the Bible says they produce the same exhortations, edifications and comforts. So what you're going to do is make sh!t up rely on God to provide the words. Unless the words are muck and mire. God hates muck and mire.
YOU DID IT! ISN'T GOD WONDERFUL! Man, nothing blesses me more than knowing that the power that created the rings of Saturn and the diamond rains of Jupiter took the time to bless us with a message specifically for the people in this room, a message of such generic banality it sounds like it came from a random Biblical baby food of the day calendar.
Hang on, now, hang on. See, something amazing just happened. See, I just joined an offshoot, and they think interpretation is going to sound different than prophecy, because interpretation should be a perfect prayer and praise to God and stuff like that, so, without faking it now, let's all adjust our interpretations to provide messages that are not the same as the interpretations we've been producing all along. Holy sh!t that worked? I mean Hallelujah! Just like the Word says, interpretations and prophecies are different after all!
By the way, I know we said prophecies should be generic banalities, but did you know that they can be personal, too? Yup! See, the Bible says prophesy should leave the hearers amazed at the precision. Banalities don't do that, but personal prophecies do. How about that! You're producing personal prophecies just like the suggestion I planted in your head the Word says!
Once you have hundreds and hundreds of people backing each other's bullsh!t, it becomes an act of shame to admit you knew it was BS all along.
You can't buy that kind of loyalty. "You can say what you want about TWI, but they're the only ones who teach the accuracy of speaking in tongues." Yeah, sure they do.
Speaking in Tongues needed to sound like a language. Elements of language needed to be present. As apposed to silly sounds (which as kids it was a game to get away with, but like I said, you always got caught). There was a proper way to do it, and each person had their individualized spin on it. Such consistency by each individual to be different does not suggest to me another being is behind everyone making this happen.
A random wall, a few windows leaning against it, and a pile of shingles are elements of a house. But they are not a house. They need to be formed together in useful and purposeful ways.
On the Day of Pentecost people were present who could affirm a language they knew was being spoke. That is a story. Stories were told of people SITing French. Just like stories about curtains.
I believe speaking in tongues is a thing, well the act is a a thing and the label of SIT is thrown on it. This thing has no practical utility. Language does. Speaking in Tongues is not a language, and the burden of proof lies on those who claim it is.
I agree Interpretation of Tongues was just virtue signaling. You knew what the group wanted to hear and you did it. You formed a message as you understood what was wanted of you by the group. You were lying to you.
Interpretation and prophecy pushed you further from yourself. It was a process of becoming a facade to yourself. So was door to door witnessing, but the feedback was usually a little more honest.
A random wall, a few windows leaning against it, and a pile of shingles are elements of a house. But they are not a house. They need to be formed together in useful and purposeful ways
Syntax. A real language needs syntax, the element that was painfully lacking in speaking in tongues..
since we’ve gotten into speaking in tongues with interpretation - this is a follow up post to my previous one, talking about my second Twig... here’s something I said on an old Speaking in Tongues thread way back in June of 2006 in reference to that same Twig:
“I remember my twig leader's wife always saying the same five or six words in a tongue but the interpretation was at least two or three sentences long. I never gave this linguistic oddity much thought until I brought my friend Steve to Twig – and he pointed that out to me. Every week, the same five or six words – with a different interpretation each time. Maybe each word had multiple meanings and functions – a diagram of the sentence would probably look like a complicated map of the NY Subway System.”
funny - I can still hear her SIT words, something like
"Ahkadahanda kahanda Ahkadahanda mikanda kahanda" - something like that... ...not sure of the spelling so I just tried spelling it phonetically
The group cohesion that was accomplished by this shared self-deception was worth its weight in bullsh!t.
I couldn't have said it better myself.
12 hours ago, Raf said:
Once you have hundreds and hundreds of people backing each other's bullsh!t, it becomes an act of shame to admit you knew it was BS all along.
Heck, I never realized it was fake until the discussion came up on GSC.
12 hours ago, Raf said:
The worship manifestations were the ultimate "how" of how TWI "brainwashed" us all.
Your premise was actually a good conclusion to your post.
I had been set up with expectation that someday I would SIT from two years or so before I took the PFLAP class. A HS friend witnessed to me less than a year after we graduated HS. I went to church with him for a couple of months and then shipped off to USAF basic training.
In tech school in Biloxi, MS, I got in with a charismatic christian group. I was in MS for about 7 months then got stationed in the Azores. Roughly six months after landing there, I met up with a Military WOW. It took another 9 months to meet the numerical requirements to run the class.
All of THAT time, I had been "trying" to receive the Holy Ghost. Never happened until session 12 in July 1975. Then I moved my mouth, and tongue and lips... etc.
Now, 47 years later, I have a much better idea of why I couldn't let the spirit move me in the first place.
For the record, technically, I'm not closed to the idea that someone, somewhere, is actually Speaking In Tongues, the real thing. I'm confident that everything I've seen in any group, ex-twi or not, all supposedly speaking in tongues, are nothing of the kind, and the real thing would appear VERY different. (Freed of the nonsense concept that they'd have a roomful of people speaking "tongues of angels", there would be actual foreign languages spoken.) Mind you, I'd be more than a little skeptical based on how completely I was snowed before.
As to how "speaking in tongues" and "interpretation" and "prophecy" can be used to bind a group together, we've discussed this before. Any sociologist could certainly explain it if they'd seen the results, and it doesn't take a degree holder to do so, either. The actual act we saw/did in twi/ex-twi groups are fake- able by actors, even by acting students. Therefore, con-men can certainly fake "the worship manifestations" as we were taught them. It's also possible to set up situations where someone fakes them, is told they're doing the real thing, and the results are the person fakes them convinced they're doing the real thing. The results appear identical to what we all saw all the time. (Yes, there's an obvious reason for that.) On a practical level, it's completely possible to design a cult where people are told they will speak in tongues, and get them to do something that resembles what we did in every measurable way. (Yes, there's an obvious reason for that.) On a doctrinal level, the Bible only has ONE VERSE that's used to suggest SIT would be incomprehensible- and nowadays that gets me VERY suspicious that verse is being misused. In this case, it is. It's in a list of verses with ridiculous levels of hyperbole- speaking with tongues "of angels" is in the same category as literally moving mountains with your faith, and generosity to the point of handing over all your possessions including your body. It was never meant to be LITERAL that there were people speaking "tongues of angels." If they exist, they are not mentioned elsewhere, so they're not our concern if they DO exist. There's plenty of human languages, whether current or extinct.
Mind you, I changed my position due to 2 things. Primarily, I was unable to argue against everything on this list- I was well aware the social aspects could be faked, but the supposed Biblical claims didn't hold up to scrutiny. Secondarily, when someone tried to argue FOR "speaking in tongues", they weren't able to bring any SUBSTANCE to the table. There's a saying about discussions, and HOW the person addressed the discussion said more than anything else- they neither cleared anything up, nor came in with anything I'd somehow overlooked. (If I'd overlooked something, that might have been different, so I checked.) So, they just attempted to fog each of the issues, and that, if anything, reinforced what I'd already concluded- my previous position was indefensible. A perfect example of how that unfolded was how I later mentioned I'd changed positions, and I'd held off making a final decision to see if the other arguer somehow had thought of anything I had not (and thus, had a sensible argument.) They angrily challenged me to come up with an example. They wanted me to come up with an example of something I had been unable to come up with previously. That was the level of logic I was dealing with, which made me feel better about my decision.
since we’ve gotten into speaking in tongues with interpretation - this is a follow up post to my previous one, talking about my second Twig... here’s something I said on an old Speaking in Tongues thread way back in June of 2006 in reference to that same Twig:
“I remember my twig leader's wife always saying the same five or six words in a tongue but the interpretation was at least two or three sentences long. I never gave this linguistic oddity much thought until I brought my friend Steve to Twig – and he pointed that out to me. Every week, the same five or six words – with a different interpretation each time. Maybe each word had multiple meanings and functions – a diagram of the sentence would probably look like a complicated map of the NY Subway System.”
funny - I can still hear her SIT words, something like
"Ahkadahanda kahanda Ahkadahanda mikanda kahanda" - something like that... ...not sure of the spelling so I just tried spelling it phonetically
I remember someone who was sorta "stuck" rhyming in her tongue. I have no idea how that one was resolved, if it ever was. As for the same phrase, that was vpw's result as well- "Lo SHAN-ta ma laka SI-to la-SHON-ta." Always that exact phrase. From a man who admitted that he supposedly faked speaking in tongues when someone genuinely tried to help him. Supposedly, he recited Scripture in Greek and they didn't recognize it. Mind you, it's likely he made up that entire story- but it shows he was WILLING to fake SIT long before he met us.
Wait . . So the scripture came by Holy peoples of Gawd who spake . . . So it was basically like writing down Interpretation of Tongues which is Prophecy except for when it is not . . . That's why to whom is so important cause you have to remember who was present in those first century Twig Fellowships . . . It must of been confusing to hear "study my Word" when the Canon hadn't been established . . .
So that's why the word hadn't been know since the first century. . . It wasn't even written yet . . . So how did they see it in the original?
You have to remember that is all interprets itself in the end.
I have helped many grads develop more fluency in their SIT.
It is not difficult. The clues were given and distributed through the Intermediate Class excellors sessions. I saw great fluency developed when people would just relax their fears.
In all my years at HQ and around VPW, I only heard him SIT once at a 10:30 meeting in the BRC. I was especially attentive to his fluency, and it was VERY fluent..... not at all like the few recorded lines in the film class.
Uncle Harry and I were in the same twig in New Knoxville. He had plenty of fluency in SIT.
I have helped many grads develop more fluency in their SIT.
It is not difficult. The clues were given and distributed through the Intermediate Class excellors sessions. . . .
In all my years at HQ and around VPW, I only heard him SIT once . . . I was especially attentive to his fluency, and it was VERY fluent.....
When not be clear in the class? Why clues? What's the point of a CLASS?
The Green Card said the class would enable us to overcome our fears.
Was this false advertising?
No. I saw PLENTY of people wrestle with their fears. Maybe the first time thru the class was not enough for some. I was amazed at what people did NOT hear in their first times thru. I dealt with this a lot in excellors sessions, and in private ministering.
Overcoming fears was never promised to happen in ONE taking of the class. Many people needed a little more, so I volunteered and saw the process in great detail. I think the top leaders shied away from a lot of this brute service level activity. Too bad for them; they missed out.
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Bolshevik
Scripture, The Bible, is not *a* language. "It interprets itself", though.
T-Bone
Excerpts from the first draft for a totally revised burnt orange book “Power For Materialistic Living Today”, page 3, Introduction: The Materialistic Life …This post literally changed my life. My
Raf
It is almost impossible to overstate how much this reeks of bullcrap. I'll be gentle: If Euclidian geometry were wrong on one point, Euclidian geometry would be perfectly content to remove
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T-Bone
Imagine Horshack wanting to give his interpretation of a Rorschach test…
FYI: this video clip could also be used for a Welcome Back PFAL episode when Horshack was so excited to answer a Listening with a Purpose question.
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Bolshevik
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speaking_in_tongues
"A 1973 experimental study highlighted the existence of two basic types of glossolalia: a static form which tends to a somewhat coaction to repetitiveness and a more dynamic one which tends to free association of speech-like elements."[73][70]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_association_(psychology)
There's this
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Bolshevik
I don't know how anyone gets past session twelve.
Even more so the intermediate class. A a Twig Fellowship.
The Manifestions were human torture. There was a sadistic element to them.
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WordWolf
The twi landscape changed a great deal after the 1988-1989 split that lost 80% of the membership.
Before that, the classes and meetings were comfortable because they were more organic and let people make them comfortable. And the people that grew twi were generally quality Christians. Once they were gone, there was the twi that you knew- mechanistic and controlling (a lot moreso than before.)
People often got swept into twi and enjoyed their time there. The classes were billed as a big part, and talked up as critical, so people expected to go through them- and many came away with stories of what they overcame to take the classes, more like a badge of honor than a millstone around the neck. Sometimes, a member would volunteer to pay for the class fee for a new person who seemed unable to raise the money, or gave him/her a new Bible when the class started.
When things are like that, getting to sessions 8-12 gets elements of excitement as well as anxiety. Nobody wants to disappoint a group making them happy, and nobody wanted to feel left out. With 4 classes ironing out hesitations, most people had no trouble beginning to, say, "speak in tongues" when it was time. Most of the remainder moved along as soon as someone running the class addressed them specifically (while everyone was speaking and nobody was looking), and a tiny handful had to be worked with afterwards. vpw himself had to be worked on afterwards like the remedial student he was, when JE Stiles taught him and spent hours working with him.
That doesn't even count those who were already "speaking in tongues" before taking that class, due to being too young to take it or having to wait for an official class. So, no pressure for those people.
We all WANTED to believe. We all were invited into a group of nice people who believed. They generally didn't want us to have anxiety or problems. That starts setting the stage, and sessions 8-12 finished the job.
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chockfull
I would say the class series does one thing very well. It brainwashes the students to the point they will not trust another Christian organization or group of people as authentic genuine and accurate or worth collaborating with on anything.
How?
By first pillaging Bullingers material to present all the Word interprets itself BS. Notice the indirection there to avoid responsibility for a translation.
At the same time we are introduced to literal translations according to usage.
Commentaries that aren’t commentaries made by infallible men. No these were God breathed translations from Himself beyond any questioning.
Natural knowledge is reasoned spiritual knowledge is “ascertained”.
Language of elevation of status or position that is followed by language of control.
The subtle language and concepts introduced by the class don’t produce the claims of the class about prosperity, harmony, etc. but they do introduce mental footholds of control.
VP said if you can’t trust them about how many were crucified with Jesus how can you trust them about the greater truths of eternal life?
NO. I can’t trust VP due to the fruit of his life, which Jesus instructed me to use as a ruler.
I can’t trust the Way because they have never got to that point regarding the founder. Instead they double down whitewash and run with the people in power.
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T-Bone
Excellent points to think about, WordWolf!
In my opinion those visible changes reflected a tightening up of the PFAL support system (aka the Twig fellowships). I noticed a distinct difference in the two fellowships I was involved with my first year in the ministry (1974 New York). The girl I was dating took me to her Twig on Long Island run by Sammy P. It was very lively, loving, engaging, and inspiring. But after I took the class the branch coordinator Donald L. talked to me about a new Twig starting up in Queens closer to my home and said they could use my help.
That second Twig was run by the book. And when I say it was run by the book, I mean by strict adherence to the PFAL book. Fellowship usual felt more mechanical and perfunctory. When I went into the Family corps in 1984 it was disappointingly reminiscent of that second Twig. The curriculum revolved around PFAL. The unvarnished truth is that ministry-wide PFAL was considered the touchstone of truth (FYI that’s a metaphor for any physical or intellectual measure by which the validity or merit of a concept can be tested – similar to saying “acid test” or “litmus test”…and btw, I didn’t make up that idea – I actually read it in a Way Mag !).
Your statements: “And the people that grew twi were generally quality Christians. Once they were gone, there was the twi that you knew- mechanistic and controlling” – speak to me of TWI’s ever-encroaching nature – that would stifle inspiration and thoughtful reflection. The restrictive mindset that PFAL encouraged…promoted tended to pigeonhole a grad as a PFAL-loop – continuing a certain process…the end of which is connected to the beginning – now as a grad, you go out there and get another person in the class…each one reach one. Similar to the secret message decoded in the movie A Christmas Story fyi boys and girls using the Grease Spot Secret Decoder Ring you’ll find out the hidden message in PFAL is "Take More PFAL".
I have no doubt there were many genuine, loving, inspiring Christians in TWI. But I also believe there was a symbiotic relationship involving interaction between two different entities – perhaps neither one fully realizing that…I think it’s possible for a genuine Christian to be deceived by a pseudo-Christian cult-leader and in some Bizarro way the relationship is mutually “beneficial”. The Christian gets to play church and feel special and needed and the cult reaps the benefits of their time, money, talents, resources. To be honest, I never pictured myself as a leader in TWI – but I dutifully followed the TWI-playbook: go WOW, go in the corps, run PFAL classes, teach PFAL stuff, until death do us part. Sorry slipped into my old TWI-marriage vows…yes, it’s true – I married TWI…but as of 1986 I am officially divorced…and to the Twig coordinator of my second Twig I bear no animosity – I kind of identify with him in some ways. Pushed into doing something unfamiliar…uninteresting…unfulfilling because that’s the way we do it in The Way.
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Bolshevik
My understanding of Rorschach tests is the blots are NOT random. Speaking in tongues is.
Interpretation of Tongues would be more like divining goat entrails.
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Bolshevik
The anxiety didn't begin or end with the class. You had fellowships and excellor sessions regularly. I felt it for decades.
You were being forced to interpret on the spot random noises you had made up on the spot. The random sounds couldn't be just any random sounds either. They had to be convincing. The interpretation had rules.
As children we all knew who in children's fellowship was faking and who was not. Kids test boundaries. There were rules and they bound the mind. It could not be faked.
Speaking in Tongues in TWI was abuse. Interpretation of Tongues was indoctrination. The process was extremely constricting.
Edited by BolshevikGlossalalalalalalala
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engine
I could not agree more, Bolshevik, and thank you for saying it just like you did.
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Raf
The worship manifestations were the ultimate "how" of how TWI "brainwashed" us all.
Once they were able to convince every last one of us that we weren't faking tongues (we were, every time), they got to work convincing us we weren't faking interpretation and prophecy. The group cohesion that was accomplished by this shared self-deception was worth its weight in bullsh!t.
Whenever someone new was initiated, the entire church came to reinforce him. That's exactly like the first time I did it! No, no, no, you're not faking. It can't be counterfeited, remember?
Now on to interpretation. Here's how to
fake itmanifest it. We don't fake it of course. People who fake it say things like "muck and mire." If you find yourself saying "muck and mire," you're faking it. If you call God "Heavenly God," you're faking it. But if you sound like someone ran inspiration catchphrases through a Psalm-bot generator on Twitter, that's not faking it. Got it? Good. Now don't fake it! If you stumble, don't worry. It's because you've got stage fright. It's totally not because you're faking it and this practice is no more inspired of God than the average burp.Wow, you sound exactly like
the tape we just played to plant sample messages for you to emulate as you learn to fake itI did when I first interpreted. Well done! God is working in you just like He worked in everyone else in this room who totally didn't fake it like you just did because you didn't because none of us are faking it and if you shout that the emperor is naked we will ostracize you as a devil spirit possessed lying liarface and you'll be the only one to admit faking it because the rest of us totally are not.Prophecy time! Now this is important. It's going to sound just like interpretation because
it's faked in the exact same waythe Bible says they produce the same exhortations, edifications and comforts. So what you're going to do ismake sh!t uprely on God to provide the words. Unless the words are muck and mire. God hates muck and mire.YOU DID IT! ISN'T GOD WONDERFUL! Man, nothing blesses me more than knowing that the power that created the rings of Saturn and the diamond rains of Jupiter took the time to bless us with a message specifically for the people in this room, a message of such generic banality it sounds like it came from a random Biblical baby food of the day calendar.
Hang on, now, hang on. See, something amazing just happened. See, I just joined an offshoot, and they think interpretation is going to sound different than prophecy, because interpretation should be a perfect prayer and praise to God and stuff like that, so, without faking it now, let's all adjust our interpretations to provide messages that are not the same as the interpretations we've been producing all along.
Holy sh!t that worked? I meanHallelujah! Just like the Word says, interpretations and prophecies are different after all!By the way, I know we said prophecies should be generic banalities, but did you know that they can be personal, too? Yup! See, the Bible says prophesy should leave the hearers amazed at the precision. Banalities don't do that, but personal prophecies do. How about that! You're producing personal prophecies just like
the suggestion I planted in your headthe Word says!Once you have hundreds and hundreds of people backing each other's bullsh!t, it becomes an act of shame to admit you knew it was BS all along.
You can't buy that kind of loyalty. "You can say what you want about TWI, but they're the only ones who teach the accuracy of speaking in tongues." Yeah, sure they do.
Sure they do.
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Bolshevik
Speaking in Tongues needed to sound like a language. Elements of language needed to be present. As apposed to silly sounds (which as kids it was a game to get away with, but like I said, you always got caught). There was a proper way to do it, and each person had their individualized spin on it. Such consistency by each individual to be different does not suggest to me another being is behind everyone making this happen.
A random wall, a few windows leaning against it, and a pile of shingles are elements of a house. But they are not a house. They need to be formed together in useful and purposeful ways.
On the Day of Pentecost people were present who could affirm a language they knew was being spoke. That is a story. Stories were told of people SITing French. Just like stories about curtains.
I believe speaking in tongues is a thing, well the act is a a thing and the label of SIT is thrown on it. This thing has no practical utility. Language does. Speaking in Tongues is not a language, and the burden of proof lies on those who claim it is.
I agree Interpretation of Tongues was just virtue signaling. You knew what the group wanted to hear and you did it. You formed a message as you understood what was wanted of you by the group. You were lying to you.
Interpretation and prophecy pushed you further from yourself. It was a process of becoming a facade to yourself. So was door to door witnessing, but the feedback was usually a little more honest.
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waysider
Syntax. A real language needs syntax, the element that was painfully lacking in speaking in tongues..
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Bolshevik
And if the Devil doesn't like it he can Syntax. . . .
Misheard lyrics makes sense now
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T-Bone
since we’ve gotten into speaking in tongues with interpretation - this is a follow up post to my previous one, talking about my second Twig... here’s something I said on an old Speaking in Tongues thread way back in June of 2006 in reference to that same Twig:
“I remember my twig leader's wife always saying the same five or six words in a tongue but the interpretation was at least two or three sentences long. I never gave this linguistic oddity much thought until I brought my friend Steve to Twig – and he pointed that out to me. Every week, the same five or six words – with a different interpretation each time. Maybe each word had multiple meanings and functions – a diagram of the sentence would probably look like a complicated map of the NY Subway System.”
funny - I can still hear her SIT words, something like
"Ahkadahanda kahanda Ahkadahanda mikanda kahanda" - something like that... ...not sure of the spelling so I just tried spelling it phonetically
Here is the link to my old post > Speaking in Tongues thread T-Bone's comment on the same five words having a variety of interpretations
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Rocky
I couldn't have said it better myself.
Heck, I never realized it was fake until the discussion came up on GSC.
Your premise was actually a good conclusion to your post.
Edited by RockyI had been set up with expectation that someday I would SIT from two years or so before I took the PFLAP class. A HS friend witnessed to me less than a year after we graduated HS. I went to church with him for a couple of months and then shipped off to USAF basic training.
In tech school in Biloxi, MS, I got in with a charismatic christian group. I was in MS for about 7 months then got stationed in the Azores. Roughly six months after landing there, I met up with a Military WOW. It took another 9 months to meet the numerical requirements to run the class.
All of THAT time, I had been "trying" to receive the Holy Ghost. Never happened until session 12 in July 1975. Then I moved my mouth, and tongue and lips... etc.
Now, 47 years later, I have a much better idea of why I couldn't let the spirit move me in the first place.
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WordWolf
For the record, technically, I'm not closed to the idea that someone, somewhere, is actually Speaking In Tongues, the real thing. I'm confident that everything I've seen in any group, ex-twi or not, all supposedly speaking in tongues, are nothing of the kind, and the real thing would appear VERY different. (Freed of the nonsense concept that they'd have a roomful of people speaking "tongues of angels", there would be actual foreign languages spoken.) Mind you, I'd be more than a little skeptical based on how completely I was snowed before.
As to how "speaking in tongues" and "interpretation" and "prophecy" can be used to bind a group together, we've discussed this before. Any sociologist could certainly explain it if they'd seen the results, and it doesn't take a degree holder to do so, either. The actual act we saw/did in twi/ex-twi groups are fake- able by actors, even by acting students. Therefore, con-men can certainly fake "the worship manifestations" as we were taught them. It's also possible to set up situations where someone fakes them, is told they're doing the real thing, and the results are the person fakes them convinced they're doing the real thing. The results appear identical to what we all saw all the time. (Yes, there's an obvious reason for that.) On a practical level, it's completely possible to design a cult where people are told they will speak in tongues, and get them to do something that resembles what we did in every measurable way. (Yes, there's an obvious reason for that.) On a doctrinal level, the Bible only has ONE VERSE that's used to suggest SIT would be incomprehensible- and nowadays that gets me VERY suspicious that verse is being misused. In this case, it is. It's in a list of verses with ridiculous levels of hyperbole- speaking with tongues "of angels" is in the same category as literally moving mountains with your faith, and generosity to the point of handing over all your possessions including your body. It was never meant to be LITERAL that there were people speaking "tongues of angels." If they exist, they are not mentioned elsewhere, so they're not our concern if they DO exist. There's plenty of human languages, whether current or extinct.
Mind you, I changed my position due to 2 things. Primarily, I was unable to argue against everything on this list- I was well aware the social aspects could be faked, but the supposed Biblical claims didn't hold up to scrutiny. Secondarily, when someone tried to argue FOR "speaking in tongues", they weren't able to bring any SUBSTANCE to the table. There's a saying about discussions, and HOW the person addressed the discussion said more than anything else- they neither cleared anything up, nor came in with anything I'd somehow overlooked. (If I'd overlooked something, that might have been different, so I checked.) So, they just attempted to fog each of the issues, and that, if anything, reinforced what I'd already concluded- my previous position was indefensible. A perfect example of how that unfolded was how I later mentioned I'd changed positions, and I'd held off making a final decision to see if the other arguer somehow had thought of anything I had not (and thus, had a sensible argument.) They angrily challenged me to come up with an example. They wanted me to come up with an example of something I had been unable to come up with previously. That was the level of logic I was dealing with, which made me feel better about my decision.
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WordWolf
I remember someone who was sorta "stuck" rhyming in her tongue. I have no idea how that one was resolved, if it ever was. As for the same phrase, that was vpw's result as well- "Lo SHAN-ta ma laka SI-to la-SHON-ta." Always that exact phrase. From a man who admitted that he supposedly faked speaking in tongues when someone genuinely tried to help him. Supposedly, he recited Scripture in Greek and they didn't recognize it. Mind you, it's likely he made up that entire story- but it shows he was WILLING to fake SIT long before he met us.
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Bolshevik
Wait . . So the scripture came by Holy peoples of Gawd who spake . . . So it was basically like writing down Interpretation of Tongues which is Prophecy except for when it is not . . . That's why to whom is so important cause you have to remember who was present in those first century Twig Fellowships . . . It must of been confusing to hear "study my Word" when the Canon hadn't been established . . .
So that's why the word hadn't been know since the first century. . . It wasn't even written yet . . . So how did they see it in the original?
You have to remember that is all interprets itself in the end.
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Mike
I have helped many grads develop more fluency in their SIT.
It is not difficult. The clues were given and distributed through the Intermediate Class excellors sessions. I saw great fluency developed when people would just relax their fears.
In all my years at HQ and around VPW, I only heard him SIT once at a 10:30 meeting in the BRC. I was especially attentive to his fluency, and it was VERY fluent..... not at all like the few recorded lines in the film class.
Uncle Harry and I were in the same twig in New Knoxville. He had plenty of fluency in SIT.
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waysider
Why would they have to "develop" fluency if God gave the utterance?
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Bolshevik
When not be clear in the class? Why clues? What's the point of a CLASS?
And yes we know PFAL made VPW AF-FLUENT.
*cue duck*
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Mike
Fear. I said so in my post above.
In excellors sessions we used humor, laughter, and silliness to combat the fears people had.
People can balk at certain unfamiliar sounds. God has given the utterance, but they clam up in fear,
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waysider
The Green Card said the class would enable us to overcome our fears.
Was this false advertising?
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Mike
No. I saw PLENTY of people wrestle with their fears. Maybe the first time thru the class was not enough for some. I was amazed at what people did NOT hear in their first times thru. I dealt with this a lot in excellors sessions, and in private ministering.
Overcoming fears was never promised to happen in ONE taking of the class. Many people needed a little more, so I volunteered and saw the process in great detail. I think the top leaders shied away from a lot of this brute service level activity. Too bad for them; they missed out.
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