How many times do I have to repeat for you that I completely objected to the methodology of your group, and as a result I give ZERO credence to your results. You went in determined to find contradictions and you manufactured them from scratch. Your methods were dishonest.
I work the collaterals in my life. It's in the application of what we were taught in PFAL that brings out its truth.
With your methods you completely talked yourself out of believing and acting in SIT. Congratulations! You proved nothing to me. I use different methods than you. I get different results. No surprise to me.
LoL!So everyone got “properly offended” with me but missed the main point of me posting that.I wanted to show how well we can smooth out difficult sections for our personal study.
20 hours ago, T-Bone said:
Ha ! I believe YOUR standards leave a lot to be desired...Has it ever occurred to you that you use PFAL as a measuring stick to verify the accuracy and logic of PFAL. (Hint: it’s wierwille-centric)
18 hours ago, Mike said:
No, I don't use written PFAL to judge other sections of PFAL. But I do judge tapes from VPW the light of the final written publications.
If there were portions of written PFAL that contradicted each other, this would emerge from use. Similarly, had Euclid made a mistake in his selection of Postulates, then things would start falling apart that were built on Geometry.
17 hours ago, T-Bone said:
Oh wow - that's a big difference....judge certain works of VPW by using other works of VPW. of course, why didn't I think of that.
1 hour ago, Mike said:
How many times do I have to repeat for you that I completely objected to the methodology of your group, and as a result I give ZERO credence to your results. You went in determined to find contradictions and you manufactured them from scratch. Your methods were dishonest....I work the collaterals in my life. It's in the application of what we were taught in PFAL that brings out its truth...With your methods you completely talked yourself out of believing and acting in SIT. Congratulations! You proved nothing to me. I use different methods than you. I get different results. No surprise to me.
Mike: How many times do I have to repeat for you that I completely objected to the methodology of your group, and as a result I give ZERO credence to your results. You went in determined to find contradictions and you manufactured them from scratch. Your methods were dishonest.
~ ~ ~ ~
Methodology is a body of methods, rules, and postulates employed by a discipline; a particular procedure or set of procedures.
~ ~ ~ ~
Let’s review Mike’s methodology already revealed on this thread:
Mike: I don't use written PFAL to judge other sections of PFAL. But I do judge tapes from VPW the light of the final written publications.
T-Bone: in other words, Mike judges certain works of VPW by using other works of VPW.
Mike: I work the collaterals in my life. It's in the application of what we were taught in PFAL that brings out its truth.
~ ~ ~
Remember in the 1967 PFAL Class wierwille talking about things equal to the same thing are equal to each other. His clunky way of stating that should have alerted folks of his incompetence (that’s if they hadn’t already fallen asleep during the class zzzzZZZZ ZZZzzz ). I was at the live PFAL 77 class when wierwille was covering that point again – and he STILL used his clunky phrasing. Bob Moy****n was sitting near me – and he stands up, cups his hands over his mouth megaphone style and yells out transitive property of equality. Isn’t that odd – a student knew more about it than “the teacher”. I wonder if they'll include that in the new PFALT. PFAL 1967 is equal to PFAL 77 is equal to PFALT...transitive property of equal plagiarism.
The moral of the story: Mike’s methodology: use PFAL to evaluate PFAL is equal to judge certain works of VPW by other works of VPW is equal to the application of what we were taught in PFAL that brings out its truth... circular reasoning is equal to chasing your tail is equal to a hamster wheel in motion....will the circle be unbroken?
Edited by T-Bone post editing = post editing = post editing
You went in determined to find contradictions and you manufactured them from scratch. Your methods were dishonest
If I stick my big toe in the pond, tell you the water is wet and you disagree with my methodology and conclusion, it doesn't make the water any less wet.
ROFLMAO!! And you suppose they understand Koine Greek? It's not spoken today. The absurdity of this statement alone is mind boggling...it's akin to me saying that I want to understand the Latin Vulgate and asked a few Italian people.
I used to live in Astoria Queens....it's a Greek neighborhood....I consulted with at least a few Greek people everyday when I lived there...
If there were portions of written PFAL that contradicted each other, this would emerge from use.
It did emerge from use, why the heck you think the way international pulled the book from circulation and spent years editing, and re-editing it. The way international completely depends on the white washed, idolotraus version of VPW more than anyone else. The way international knew it was a contradictory mess and they spent years working it out. You should rejoin yourself to them for real. At least you would be able to get caught up with the latest version of plaf.
Mike, I ask you this question in all sincerity. Do you read The Bible? Do you sit down and just read it? Like a book. Like a favourite novel or history book or whatever. Take off your "thinking brain" that runs off in particular directions when you read certain verses, and just read for the pleasure of it?
Do you pick up the Bible and read, say, the gospel of Mark, or one of the epistles? Or more esoterically, a chunk of Numbers or Leviticus or Jeremiah, or Micah or Hosea?
Do you read the Bible, or do you just read books about the Bible?
Getting back to the original PFAL: Can anyone explain the bastard bar mitzvah?
Didn't Vic "teach" that in "Bible times" bastard boys were given their bar mitzvah at a different age than legitimate boys? This is why Jesus and fam go to Juruselem when he's twelve. In Luke, I think. He couldn't remember who told him this, but that didn't stop him from anointing it factual and worthy of "teaching" - this methodology always bothered me.
I've consulted several Od/New Testament scholars, Rabbis, Ancient Near East historians, theologians. (I admit I didn't consult the Greek people.) None could confirm the veracity of this notion of bastard bar mitzvah.
Getting back to the original PFAL: Can anyone explain the bastard bar mitzvah?
Didn't Vic "teach" that in "Bible times" bastard boys were given their bar mitzvah at a different age than legitimate boys? This is why Jesus and fam go to Juruselem when he's twelve. In Luke, I think. He couldn't remember who told him this, but that didn't stop him from anointing it factual and worthy of "teaching" - this methodology always bothered me.
I've consulted several Od/New Testament scholars, Rabbis, Ancient Near East historians, theologians. (I admit I didn't consult the Greek people.) None could confirm the veracity of this notion of bastard bar mitzvah.
According to one answer I found on the Internet: “Jesus didn’t “get” a bar mitzvah. He became one. Every Jewish boy becomes a bar mitzvah automatically at age 13. I think you’re really asking when Jesus celebrated the occasion of becoming a bar mitzvah. The answer is that he didn’t. That didn’t become a thing until the Middle Ages.”
From Quora – Did Jesus have a bar mitzvah?
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
I think most problems with what’s taught in PFAL have to do with wierwille's bastardizing of plagiarized material. Which proves the old proverb that I just made up: clueless thievery is the badder part of proficiency.
Bastardize: change (something) in such a way as to lower its quality or value, typically by adding new elements; synonyms: adulterate · corrupt · contaminate · weaken · dilute · spoil · taint · pollute · foul · defile · debase · degrade · devalue · depreciate · distort · vitiate.
vpw's previous set of films were called "The Teacher." He'd called himself "The Teacher" years before pfal. That was in the low-budget films he'd made of himself before.
How many times do I have to repeat for you that I completely objected to the methodology of your group, and as a result I give ZERO credence to your results. You went in determined to find contradictions and you manufactured them from scratch. Your methods were dishonest.
I work the collaterals in my life. It's in the application of what we were taught in PFAL that brings out its truth.
With your methods you completely talked yourself out of believing and acting in SIT. Congratulations! You proved nothing to me. I use different methods than you. I get different results. No surprise to me.
"Dodge, distract, deny, but never admit an error is an error." -Mike.
Yes, that's definitely not the methods I use. My worldview is fundamentally different from yours, Mike, because I'm interested in facing the truth- whatever truth that is- no matter how much I dislike the answers- because I value the truth for its own sake more than I value liking the answers. That's why I freely admit an error is an error, while you "never admit an error is an error."
As for our methodology, that goes back to your "deny" strategy. You deny we used honest and fair methods to discuss and catalog the ACTUAL ERRORS IN pfal. You give zero credence to our results because they result in a conclusion you don't like. If we'd used the same methods and the conclusions had been to your liking, you'd have lauded our methods to the sky.
When pfal places "all without distinction" and "all with a distinction" as synonymous, the only methodology needed to see it was an obvious error is to catalog it. Any high school student of "mathematical logic" knows that A does not equal Not-A, and "A and Not-A" is always false. When someone talks about someone else on one page, then becomes that person a page later, that doesn't require a degree to understand. That's obviously an error. Except under the Mikean system- under that system, no matter how obvious an error is, there is no possibility of admitting it is an error, so any response MUST end with claiming it is true SOMEHOW, no matter how convoluted and esoteric the explanation has to get.
The thing is, Mike, when your approach to reality and discussions is this divorced from reality, you lose any credibility you had. Only someone dogmatically determined to agree no matter how ridiculous you get would continue to agree with you. Frankly, I feel sorry for you and anyone who is that far gone.
That is how he ended "The Class"? How mysterious. So it sounds like "The Teacher" grew out of essentially nothing.
Signed,
The Poster
It grew out of essentially nothing years before pfal. He called his previous films "The Teacher" with no justification, and kept using the title until the kids started to use it also. Odd to imagine, but when he visited NYC, one of his visits he had a small twi crowd greeting him with "The Teacher! The Teacher!" It took a lot of consistent name-dropping by him until it stuck, though.
Mike, I ask you this question in all sincerity. Do you read The Bible? Do you sit down and just read it? Like a book. Like a favourite novel or history book or whatever. Take off your "thinking brain" that runs off in particular directions when you read certain verses, and just read for the pleasure of it?
Do you pick up the Bible and read, say, the gospel of Mark, or one of the epistles? Or more esoterically, a chunk of Numbers or Leviticus or Jeremiah, or Micah or Hosea?
Do you read the Bible, or do you just read books about the Bible?
I pretty much answered that in the longer post I did above where I posted my version of 1 Cor 3. I like making clean texts I can read without the distraction of all my wide margin notes. These texts I can read for the flow of the message.
I'm also enjoying the NIV for Old Testament stories.
One of my favorite Epistles lately is Philippians. I had not known that Paul was released from that imprisonment until lately.
Did you see my long post above?
*/*/*/*/*
When I first started posting here in 2002 my reading was entirely out of the collaterals, and my only exposure to my KJV was through the verses that appear on those pages. I did that for 20 years, from 1998 to 2018. I figured that I had set the collaterals aside prematurely in the 1990s, when I concentrated my KJV a lot, and the New American Standard Bible. It was a good 20 years, and I did it in a fellowship where we all studied straight out of the collaterals together.
So now I am back in Bible versions, including my own, and loving it.
I still spend a lot of time in the collaterals, but now it's more for showing other grads what they forgot or never absorbed in the first go around.
I am STILL sending out Dr's last/lost teaching to grads who never heard of it.
A lot of my time is spent with TWI innies now. Most has been internet interactions, but some voice phone is happening now. A Corps couple from the good old days is moving into my area, close to my neighborhood. I am suggesting that they catch up on what they missed 37+ years ago. I got tons of practice HERE doing this, so I have lots of pre-written material to help them see things they missed.
Receive, retain, release is the way to do things, and YES, Twinkly, straight out Bible reading is part of my regimen. Do you still SIT?
Getting back to the original PFAL: Can anyone explain the bastard bar mitzvah?
Didn't Vic "teach" that in "Bible times" bastard boys were given their bar mitzvah at a different age than legitimate boys? This is why Jesus and fam go to Juruselem when he's twelve. In Luke, I think. He couldn't remember who told him this, but that didn't stop him from anointing it factual and worthy of "teaching" - this methodology always bothered me.
I've consulted several Od/New Testament scholars, Rabbis, Ancient Near East historians, theologians. (I admit I didn't consult the Greek people.) None could confirm the veracity of this notion of bastard bar mitzvah.
That was another ACTUAL ERROR.
As Raf pointed out, Jesus' arrival at age 12 HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH A BAR MITZVAH. He was NOT presented in a Bar Mitzvah. His family showed up every year to celebrate a "FEAST" (they went on holiday the same time each year, to Jerusalem. for the same event.) When Jesus was 12, they went to the same event like every year. That time, however, Jesus broke off from the group and got into deep discussions at the temple. If he'd had the discussions a year later, it STILL would have had NOTHING TO DO WITH A BAR MITZVAH.
So, there's no need to invoke some old Jewish document nobody's ever seen or heard of, to support some custom that no historian studying Judaism has ever encountered, just to explain why he was there at 12. He was there. He was young. He was discussing with the studious adults and holding his own. His exact age wasn't the point, and it had nothing to do whatsoever with a Bar Mitzvah. In fact, as Raf pointed out, there's nothing to indicate that anybody thought that Jesus was anything other than Joseph and Mary's son, born in wedlock.
If someone in anger calls someone else a "son of a b****" , that doesn't mean he's trying to make a claim his mother was a dog, nor that she was a very quarrelsome woman. If someone in anger calls someone else a "bas****", it doesn't mean they're claiming the person was born out of wedlock. Those are meant as general insults, and context makes it obvious when someone means it literally. ("This male puppy, technically, is a son of a b****. He's a sweet puppy regardless.")
We understand that in English. However, not everybody gets that it's much the same in different languages. vpw's shallow understanding of Scripture- mostly by parroting the work of others, often without understanding what he was saying- was insufficient to get it. So, we get a document nobody's ever seen or heard of, explaining a practice nobody's ever done, which nobody has ever found a reference to in decades of historical work.
According to one answer I found on the Internet: “Jesus didn’t “get” a bar mitzvah. He became one. Every Jewish boy becomes a bar mitzvah automatically at age 13. I think you’re really asking when Jesus celebrated the occasion of becoming a bar mitzvah. The answer is that he didn’t. That didn’t become a thing until the Middle Ages.”
From Quora – Did Jesus have a bar mitzvah?
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
I think most problems with what’s taught in PFAL have to do with wierwille's bastardizing of plagiarized material. Which proves the old proverb that I just made up: clueless thievery is the badder part of proficiency.
Bastardize: change (something) in such a way as to lower its quality or value, typically by adding new elements; synonyms: adulterate · corrupt · contaminate · weaken · dilute · spoil · taint · pollute · foul · defile · debase · degrade · devalue · depreciate · distort · vitiate.
Right. So who manufactured the error of Jesus' bastard bar mitzvah? Whose faulty, dishonest methodology manufactured this error? Did Raf manufacture this error or did victor?
After following the evidence, I am convinced Victor contrived this error to make his opinion of dating Jesus' birth fit like a hand in a glove - a glove that knows how to interpret itself.
If victor is wrong about this, what else is he wrong about? Observe with a mind free of indoctrination and conclusions to find out.
"I am STILL sending out Dr's last/lost teaching to grads who never heard of it. "
For those who forgot, "The Joy of Serving" was a commercial for pfal. "You have to serve people something-so serve them the 3 levels of the class, and outside of twi, there's no real answers for people. (The End.)"
Since it was hard to find, I thought I'd repost it. Mike insists this was vpw's last public teaching (there's reason to dispute that), and that it's important (and most of us don't take that seriously at all.) It was called "The Joy of Serving." Here's the transcript of "The Joy of Serving", aka "The Joy of Serving Transcript."
My initial response to "the Joy of Serving" was that this was the closing remarks of a man with an overinflated sense of his organization, and an underinflated sense of all Christians outside that organization.
According to one answer I found on the Internet: “Jesus didn’t “get” a bar mitzvah. He became one. Every Jewish boy becomes a bar mitzvah automatically at age 13. I think you’re really asking when Jesus celebrated the occasion of becoming a bar mitzvah. The answer is that he didn’t. That didn’t become a thing until the Middle Ages.”
From Quora – Did Jesus have a bar mitzvah?
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
I think most problems with what’s taught in PFAL have to do with wierwille's bastardizing of plagiarized material. Which proves the old proverb that I just made up: clueless thievery is the badder part of proficiency.
Bastardize: change (something) in such a way as to lower its quality or value, typically by adding new elements; synonyms: adulterate · corrupt · contaminate · weaken · dilute · spoil · taint · pollute · foul · defile · debase · degrade · devalue · depreciate · distort · vitiate.
So, Jesus could not have had a Bar Mitzvah at any age because there was no such thing as a "Bar Mitzvah" ceremony at any age when Jesus was a teenager. So, vpw's document- that nobody has seen nor read, that said a thing was historically true but was historically nonexistent, that nobody can find a reference to because nobody discussed nonexistent things... this document that wasn't even needed because the passage had nothing to do with a Bar Mitzvah....... is there any other possibility- beyond a REASONABLE doubt- other than that vpw made it up and that's why it's so error-filled?
Yes, we know somebody here will say it's impossible for it to have had an error, so the truth must be amazingly convoluted or hiding some deep secret, which is why it only APPEARS to be an ACTUAL ERROR. That's what happens when one is determined to "NEVER ADMIT AN ERROR IS AN ERROR." (HIS WORDS, NOT MINE.)
Right. So who manufactured the error of Jesus' bastard bar mitzvah? Whose faulty, dishonest methodology manufactured this error? Did Raf manufacture this error or did victor?
After following the evidence, I am convinced Victor contrived this error to make his opinion of dating Jesus' birth fit like a hand in a glove - a glove that knows how to interpret itself.
If victor is wrong about this, what else is he wrong about? Observe with a mind free of indoctrination and conclusions to find out.
Oh, and btw, I had some things to say about Mike's nonsense, but after reading everyone's comments from today, I can't remember what they were... either than or it really doesn't matter anymore.
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Bolshevik
Scripture, The Bible, is not *a* language. "It interprets itself", though.
T-Bone
Excerpts from the first draft for a totally revised burnt orange book “Power For Materialistic Living Today”, page 3, Introduction: The Materialistic Life …This post literally changed my life. My
Raf
It is almost impossible to overstate how much this reeks of bullcrap. I'll be gentle: If Euclidian geometry were wrong on one point, Euclidian geometry would be perfectly content to remove
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Bolshevik
. . . . TODAY
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modcat5
Dodge, distract, deny....
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T-Bone
Mike: How many times do I have to repeat for you that I completely objected to the methodology of your group, and as a result I give ZERO credence to your results. You went in determined to find contradictions and you manufactured them from scratch. Your methods were dishonest.
~ ~ ~ ~
Methodology is a body of methods, rules, and postulates employed by a discipline; a particular procedure or set of procedures.
~ ~ ~ ~
Let’s review Mike’s methodology already revealed on this thread:
Mike: I don't use written PFAL to judge other sections of PFAL. But I do judge tapes from VPW the light of the final written publications.
T-Bone: in other words, Mike judges certain works of VPW by using other works of VPW.
Mike: I work the collaterals in my life. It's in the application of what we were taught in PFAL that brings out its truth.
ZZZzzz ). I was at the live PFAL 77 class when wierwille was covering that point again – and he STILL used his clunky phrasing. Bob Moy****n was sitting near me – and he stands up, cups his hands over his mouth megaphone style and yells out transitive property of equality. Isn’t that odd – a student knew more about it than “the teacher”. 
I wonder if they'll include that in the new PFALT. PFAL 1967 is equal to PFAL 77 is equal to PFALT...transitive property of equal plagiarism.
~ ~ ~
Remember in the 1967 PFAL Class wierwille talking about things equal to the same thing are equal to each other. His clunky way of stating that should have alerted folks of his incompetence (that’s if they hadn’t already fallen asleep during the class zzzzZZZZ
The moral of the story: Mike’s methodology: use PFAL to evaluate PFAL is equal to judge certain works of VPW by other works of VPW is equal to the application of what we were taught in PFAL that brings out its truth... circular reasoning is equal to chasing your tail is equal to a hamster wheel in motion....will the circle be unbroken?
Edited by T-Bonepost editing = post editing = post editing
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Raf
I did not go in determined to manufacture errors. They were simply there for the finding. Anyone who had studied the books knew they were there.
Like the meanings of "all" changed. They could not both be right.
And Judas hanging himself having two explanations that cannot both be accurate.
And David being a man after God's own heart after the episode with Bathsheba, except that's not what the Bible says.
We didn't even get to the good stuff.
You didn't like the methodology because it was HONEST, not because it was flawed.
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waysider
If I stick my big toe in the pond, tell you the water is wet and you disagree with my methodology and conclusion, it doesn't make the water any less wet.
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OldSkool
ROFLMAO!! And you suppose they understand Koine Greek? It's not spoken today. The absurdity of this statement alone is mind boggling...it's akin to me saying that I want to understand the Latin Vulgate and asked a few Italian people.
I used to live in Astoria Queens....it's a Greek neighborhood....I consulted with at least a few Greek people everyday when I lived there...
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OldSkool
It did emerge from use, why the heck you think the way international pulled the book from circulation and spent years editing, and re-editing it. The way international completely depends on the white washed, idolotraus version of VPW more than anyone else. The way international knew it was a contradictory mess and they spent years working it out. You should rejoin yourself to them for real. At least you would be able to get caught up with the latest version of plaf.
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Twinky
Mike, I ask you this question in all sincerity. Do you read The Bible? Do you sit down and just read it? Like a book. Like a favourite novel or history book or whatever. Take off your "thinking brain" that runs off in particular directions when you read certain verses, and just read for the pleasure of it?
Do you pick up the Bible and read, say, the gospel of Mark, or one of the epistles? Or more esoterically, a chunk of Numbers or Leviticus or Jeremiah, or Micah or Hosea?
Do you read the Bible, or do you just read books about the Bible?
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Bolshevik
Where'd this label of "The Teacher" come from?
Asking for a friend.
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T-Bone
Waysider, noted how wierwille ended the last session of 1967 PFAL; it was a self-assumed title
answering for a friend
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Bolshevik
That is how he ended "The Class"? How mysterious. So it sounds like "The Teacher" grew out of essentially nothing.
Signed,
The Poster
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Nathan_Jr
Getting back to the original PFAL: Can anyone explain the bastard bar mitzvah?
Didn't Vic "teach" that in "Bible times" bastard boys were given their bar mitzvah at a different age than legitimate boys? This is why Jesus and fam go to Juruselem when he's twelve. In Luke, I think. He couldn't remember who told him this, but that didn't stop him from anointing it factual and worthy of "teaching" - this methodology always bothered me.
I've consulted several Od/New Testament scholars, Rabbis, Ancient Near East historians, theologians. (I admit I didn't consult the Greek people.) None could confirm the veracity of this notion of bastard bar mitzvah.
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T-Bone
According to one answer I found on the Internet:
“Jesus didn’t “get” a bar mitzvah. He became one. Every Jewish boy becomes a bar mitzvah automatically at age 13. I think you’re really asking when Jesus celebrated the occasion of becoming a bar mitzvah. The answer is that he didn’t. That didn’t become a thing until the Middle Ages.”
From Quora – Did Jesus have a bar mitzvah?
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
I think most problems with what’s taught in PFAL have to do with wierwille's bastardizing of plagiarized material. Which proves the old proverb that I just made up: clueless thievery is the badder part of proficiency.
Bastardize: change (something) in such a way as to lower its quality or value, typically by adding new elements; synonyms: adulterate · corrupt · contaminate · weaken · dilute · spoil · taint · pollute · foul · defile · debase · degrade · devalue · depreciate · distort · vitiate.
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WordWolf
vpw's previous set of films were called "The Teacher." He'd called himself "The Teacher" years before pfal. That was in the low-budget films he'd made of himself before.
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WordWolf
"Dodge, distract, deny, but never admit an error is an error." -Mike.
Yes, that's definitely not the methods I use. My worldview is fundamentally different from yours, Mike, because I'm interested in facing the truth- whatever truth that is- no matter how much I dislike the answers- because I value the truth for its own sake more than I value liking the answers. That's why I freely admit an error is an error, while you "never admit an error is an error."
As for our methodology, that goes back to your "deny" strategy. You deny we used honest and fair methods to discuss and catalog the ACTUAL ERRORS IN pfal. You give zero credence to our results because they result in a conclusion you don't like. If we'd used the same methods and the conclusions had been to your liking, you'd have lauded our methods to the sky.
When pfal places "all without distinction" and "all with a distinction" as synonymous, the only methodology needed to see it was an obvious error is to catalog it. Any high school student of "mathematical logic" knows that A does not equal Not-A, and "A and Not-A" is always false. When someone talks about someone else on one page, then becomes that person a page later, that doesn't require a degree to understand. That's obviously an error. Except under the Mikean system- under that system, no matter how obvious an error is, there is no possibility of admitting it is an error, so any response MUST end with claiming it is true SOMEHOW, no matter how convoluted and esoteric the explanation has to get.
The thing is, Mike, when your approach to reality and discussions is this divorced from reality, you lose any credibility you had. Only someone dogmatically determined to agree no matter how ridiculous you get would continue to agree with you. Frankly, I feel sorry for you and anyone who is that far gone.
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WordWolf
It grew out of essentially nothing years before pfal. He called his previous films "The Teacher" with no justification, and kept using the title until the kids started to use it also. Odd to imagine, but when he visited NYC, one of his visits he had a small twi crowd greeting him with "The Teacher! The Teacher!" It took a lot of consistent name-dropping by him until it stuck, though.
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Mike
I pretty much answered that in the longer post I did above where I posted my version of 1 Cor 3. I like making clean texts I can read without the distraction of all my wide margin notes. These texts I can read for the flow of the message.
I'm also enjoying the NIV for Old Testament stories.
One of my favorite Epistles lately is Philippians. I had not known that Paul was released from that imprisonment until lately.
Did you see my long post above?
*/*/*/*/*
When I first started posting here in 2002 my reading was entirely out of the collaterals, and my only exposure to my KJV was through the verses that appear on those pages. I did that for 20 years, from 1998 to 2018. I figured that I had set the collaterals aside prematurely in the 1990s, when I concentrated my KJV a lot, and the New American Standard Bible. It was a good 20 years, and I did it in a fellowship where we all studied straight out of the collaterals together.
So now I am back in Bible versions, including my own, and loving it.
I still spend a lot of time in the collaterals, but now it's more for showing other grads what they forgot or never absorbed in the first go around.
I am STILL sending out Dr's last/lost teaching to grads who never heard of it.
A lot of my time is spent with TWI innies now. Most has been internet interactions, but some voice phone is happening now. A Corps couple from the good old days is moving into my area, close to my neighborhood. I am suggesting that they catch up on what they missed 37+ years ago. I got tons of practice HERE doing this, so I have lots of pre-written material to help them see things they missed.
Receive, retain, release is the way to do things, and YES, Twinkly, straight out Bible reading is part of my regimen. Do you still SIT?
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WordWolf
That was another ACTUAL ERROR.
As Raf pointed out, Jesus' arrival at age 12 HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH A BAR MITZVAH. He was NOT presented in a Bar Mitzvah. His family showed up every year to celebrate a "FEAST" (they went on holiday the same time each year, to Jerusalem. for the same event.) When Jesus was 12, they went to the same event like every year. That time, however, Jesus broke off from the group and got into deep discussions at the temple. If he'd had the discussions a year later, it STILL would have had NOTHING TO DO WITH A BAR MITZVAH.
So, there's no need to invoke some old Jewish document nobody's ever seen or heard of, to support some custom that no historian studying Judaism has ever encountered, just to explain why he was there at 12. He was there. He was young. He was discussing with the studious adults and holding his own. His exact age wasn't the point, and it had nothing to do whatsoever with a Bar Mitzvah. In fact, as Raf pointed out, there's nothing to indicate that anybody thought that Jesus was anything other than Joseph and Mary's son, born in wedlock.
If someone in anger calls someone else a "son of a b****" , that doesn't mean he's trying to make a claim his mother was a dog, nor that she was a very quarrelsome woman. If someone in anger calls someone else a "bas****", it doesn't mean they're claiming the person was born out of wedlock. Those are meant as general insults, and context makes it obvious when someone means it literally. ("This male puppy, technically, is a son of a b****. He's a sweet puppy regardless.")
We understand that in English. However, not everybody gets that it's much the same in different languages. vpw's shallow understanding of Scripture- mostly by parroting the work of others, often without understanding what he was saying- was insufficient to get it. So, we get a document nobody's ever seen or heard of, explaining a practice nobody's ever done, which nobody has ever found a reference to in decades of historical work.
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Nathan_Jr
Right. So who manufactured the error of Jesus' bastard bar mitzvah? Whose faulty, dishonest methodology manufactured this error? Did Raf manufacture this error or did victor?
After following the evidence, I am convinced Victor contrived this error to make his opinion of dating Jesus' birth fit like a hand in a glove - a glove that knows how to interpret itself.
If victor is wrong about this, what else is he wrong about? Observe with a mind free of indoctrination and conclusions to find out.
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WordWolf
"I am STILL sending out Dr's last/lost teaching to grads who never heard of it. "
For those who forgot, "The Joy of Serving" was a commercial for pfal. "You have to serve people something-so serve them the 3 levels of the class, and outside of twi, there's no real answers for people. (The End.)"
Since it was hard to find, I thought I'd repost it. Mike insists this was vpw's last public teaching (there's reason to dispute that), and that it's important (and most of us don't take that seriously at all.) It was called "The Joy of Serving." Here's the transcript of "The Joy of Serving", aka "The Joy of Serving Transcript."
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The Joy of Serving Transcript
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"The Joy of Serving"
Dr. V.P. Wierwille
May 12, 1985
[song ends "I Am Resolved"]". . . will come to thee."
Thank-ya very much. Please be seated. Well it's wonderful seeing
you all again on a Sunday night. Really I appreciate your coming in
from all over the area -- and I'm sure that Reverend Chris Geer and
everybody else does. Most of you know, at least the Corps knows,
that Chris and Barbara were my aids for about five years. So, through
the years we have been very closely knit together. And, real thankful
for their ministry and their dedication.
Phil it's [Phylis?] good to see you. (laughter) You got married on
me. 's nice. (laughter) Got anything to show for it? (heavy laughter)
[pause]
Mrs. Wierwille and I will be returning to the s-- United States tomorrow.
And so I just wanna, again, thank Chris and Barbara and all the -- st-
Corps here and staff and everybody, for -- the exquisite way they took
care of us. And how blessed I been just ta be in their presence.
[Article from The Way Magazine begins near here.]
Since this is the meeting here at this time of country coordinators --
and of course, what I'm going to say should be applicable to every born
again believer, but especially to -- our coordinators. I wanted to just
share a little bit tonight on the joy of serving. The joy of serving.
Number one, you can't serve unless you've got something to serve. So if
you are going to serve a dinner, you have to have a dinner to serve,
right? Good.
If you master the foundational class on Power for Abundant Living, and
the intermediate class plus the collateral readings that accompany them,
you have really something wonderful to serve people -- with. That twig
and twig area leader, and the country coordinators, leadership of the
Corps, of the WOWs, have to all have this joy of serving. If you
haven't got the joy of serving you missed something in the Word of God
you oughta ah-put on. Heh, heh. So, number one, you gotta have
something to serve. Number two is love.
In Ephesians, chapter five -- verse one:
Be ye therefore followers [imitators] of God, as [beloved, or]
dear children;
Number two:
And walk in love, as Christ also [loved you, is the text], and
[gave up] himself for [you] an offering and a sacrifice to God
for a sweet smelling savour.
I'll bet most of ya thought I was going ta read ya first Corinthians
thirteen. (laughter) Wouldn't hurt ya to read it sometime again --
and believe what it says. Ha-ha-ha. Then I want you to look at
first John, the epistle of first John.
Chapter three -- verse sixteen:
Hereby perceive we the love of God [and this word "love" is always
agapao, or agape], because he laid down his life for us: and we
ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
Verse seventeen:
But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need,
and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth
the love of God in him?
Go back to Peter. Flip back a book, first Peter. Chapter two - no,
chapter one. Verse twenty two.
Seeing ye have purified your souls . . .
That's renewed mind, 'cause your soul is not purified when you're born
again. It becomes purified as you renew your mind -- according to the
Word.
purified your souls in obeying the truth [there it is,] through
the Spirit unto unfeigned ["unfeigned" is genuine] love of the
brethren, see that you love one another with a pure heart
fervently:
So first, in the joy of serving, you've gotta have something that's
joyfully to be served, heh heh, secondly love, and then thirdly service.
That's the joy and the order of it.
I'll give you the four basic scriptural things relative to service
as I know it from the greatness of the Word. Not gonna read these,
just going give 'em to ya. I'm gonna read one of 'em with ya.
Luke twenty, twenty-two and following; Luke twenty-three, sixteen
and following; John thirteen, one and following. [ Luke 20:22ff,
Luke 23:16ff, John 13:1ff ]
But the one I want to read with you is from the Gospel of Mark. Mark,
chapter ten. Verse thirty-five:
And James and John [two of the apostles], Sons of Zebedee, [came]
unto him [unto Jesus], saying, Master, we would that thou
shouldest do for us whatsoever we shall desire.
(heh, heh, heh) Sounds sort of selfish, doesn't it? (heh, heh)
And [Jesus] said unto them, What would ye that I should do
for you? They said unto him, Grant us that we may sit, one
on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory.
[And] Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can you drink
of the cup that I drink of ? baptized with the baptism that I am
baptized with?
It's referring to his death.
Thirty-nine:
And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said, Ye shall indeed
drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am
baptized with shall ye be baptized: But to sit on my right hand
and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to
them for whom it is prepared.
Verse forty-one:
And when the ten heard it, they began to be much displeased with
James and John. [And] Jesus called them to him [all twelve], and
saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule
over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great
ones exercise authority upon them.
See the world is just opposite of the teaching of the Scriptures. They
exercise lordship over them; and then the great -eh - when he gets
higher up on the ladder, then he exercises authority over the top of
them too. That's why, so many times, we have heard that money is power.
Because money buys people, and then people become the slaves of those
who have the money. That's the world.
Verse forty-three:
But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great
among you, [shall be minister -- be your minister -- means
minister to you].
See, every twig coordinator ought to know what's happening in his twig,
among his people. He ought to know his people very well so he can
minister to them. You can't help somebody if you don't know there's
a need there. So a twig coordinator really has to get close to his
people -- to know. And people are usually hesitant to really tell
ya what they need until -- you have earned their respect. And you
earn people's respect by serving them the Word of God and loving them
-- and then learning to keep your mouth shut. You just -- you just
never tell anything; you just help people.
Forgot which verse I was -- forty-three:
But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great
among you, shall be your minister:
Verse forty-four:
And whosoever of you will be the chiefest [the greatest, the
toppest], shall be [doulos of all] servant of all.
Not just minister but a servant of all, a doulos, -- marked out for
just serving people.
For even [verse forty-five] the Son of man came not to be
ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a
ransom for many
And after all of my years, and our years of working with people,
I think the joy of service is exactly, in a synopsis form, what
I've given you tonight.
Number one, you have to take PFAL and master it -- Intermediate,
you gotta master it; the collateral's that go with it, you gotta
master. Then you've got something to serve people. And then you
have to do it with the love of God in the renewed mind, -- agapao.
Then your service is just not a ministering service, it is a
doulos service, where you are a marked-out slave for serving.
And I think this is what has made The Way Ministry so wonderful
all over the world, generally speaking, is that we have a lot of
the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation among our
people and that we are serving our people. So every Twig
coordinator, Twig Area, Country, anybody that blesses people,
like anybody, even if you are not a Twig coordinator, you ought
to master this so you can help somebody in the shop or factory;
or wherever you are, so that you got answers for them. Outside
of this ministry, people, I've seen very few answers. If we
knew where there were more, we'd go get 'em! (laughter) That's
right. Heh, heh.
I think later on tonight you're gonna hear this old church hymn:
O Master, let me walk with Thee
In lowly paths of service free;
Teach me the wayward feet to stay,
And guide them in the homeward way.
Teach me Thy patience! still with Thee
In closer, dearer company,
In work that keeps faith sweet and strong,
In trust that triumphs over wrong;
In hope that sends a shining ray,
Far down the future's broad'ning way,
In peace that only Thou canst give,
With Thee, O Master, let me live.
[The Way Magazine Article ends here.]
That was my confirmation verse. Heh, heh -- hymn rather, not
verse, hymn. Revelation three-twenty was the verse.
Well, way back in March 17th this year we officially opened and
dedicated the Word Over The World Auditorium at International
Headquarters, that I'm sure a lot of your love and blessing's
involved in. And since the opening, we have been making available
the Sunday Night teaching fellowships -- Teaching Service, on
video tape, as well as audio. But because of the differences in
formats used in the United States and used here, most of you have
not yet had the opportunity to see a video version of the Sunday
Night Services. So Reverend Geer and I discussed this yesterday
and felt that you'd be blessed tonight to see the Word Over The
World Auditorium and a Sunday Night Service.
So, Reverend Geer, you do what you have to do.
[Tape ends here]
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WordWolf
My initial response to "the Joy of Serving" was that this was the closing remarks of a man with an overinflated sense of his organization, and an underinflated sense of all Christians outside that organization.
That conclusion still seems sound.
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WordWolf
So, Jesus could not have had a Bar Mitzvah at any age because there was no such thing as a "Bar Mitzvah" ceremony at any age when Jesus was a teenager. So, vpw's document- that nobody has seen nor read, that said a thing was historically true but was historically nonexistent, that nobody can find a reference to because nobody discussed nonexistent things... this document that wasn't even needed because the passage had nothing to do with a Bar Mitzvah....... is there any other possibility- beyond a REASONABLE doubt- other than that vpw made it up and that's why it's so error-filled?
Yes, we know somebody here will say it's impossible for it to have had an error, so the truth must be amazingly convoluted or hiding some deep secret, which is why it only APPEARS to be an ACTUAL ERROR. That's what happens when one is determined to "NEVER ADMIT AN ERROR IS AN ERROR." (HIS WORDS, NOT MINE.)
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WordWolf
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Rocky
I tried. But it's a non-sequitur.
Oh, and btw, I had some things to say about Mike's nonsense, but after reading everyone's comments from today, I can't remember what they were... either than or it really doesn't matter anymore.
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