Australian red wines are really good. Better than a lot of French wines. But hey... red wine :))
Champers for breakfast, wow!
Caught a plane once, crossed many time zones. Can't think why now, but passengers were offered champagne at some ridiculous hour. Might have been breakfast. Might have been 3 or 4 or 5am. Except that the airline said it was -- an evening meal? Long distance travel can be so confusing!
Australian red wines are really good. Better than a lot of French wines. But hey... red wine :))
Champers for breakfast, wow!
Caught a plane once, crossed many time zones. Can't think why now, but passengers were offered champagne at some ridiculous hour. Might have been breakfast. Might have been 3 or 4 or 5am. Except that the airline said it was -- an evening meal? Long distance travel can be so confusing!
Ok, OZ it is, then - I'll drink some Grange with you.
I was an importer/distributor for many years, many years ago. I drank a glass of Champagne at lunch almost everyday. I appreciated that it paired with virtually every food and I could return to work sober. And the most effectual cure for a hangover is ice cold Champagne.
quote: In twi, the "Keys to Walking By the Spirit" included one that claimed that "Speaking in tongues daily is requisite to revelation." In other words, if you want revelation from God Almighty, you need to SIT first. The only explanation I ever heard of that was that, if you want God to speak to you, you should be speaking to Him.
During Living Victoriously VP said "Spiritually I've seen 4 things in life: religion, no religion, corrupt religion, and true Christianity. Still rings true for me.
One consistent symptom of religion is what I call gymnastics. These are activities, practiced or refrained from, that are supposed to help maintain God's presence in your life. God actually does not require these things. I'm talking about things like saying grace before a meal, not working in or out of the home on Sundays, etc. If someone wants to do things like that, no big deal, but God doesn't require them; He loves us no matter what.
In twi, we were definitely guilty of stuff like that. Dan Moran's song comes to mind...when I wake up first thing in the morning I begin with perfect prayer, open up my bible and read, etc. At my wow training we immediately had a believer's meeting upon waking up. Jeez, we were practically still asleep.
So sit is required to get revelation??? God spoke directly to Samuel when he was a child. He wasn't sit. God, or an angel told the magi what to do when they got to Jerusalem. They weren't even jews.
I have listened to a few of LCM recent teachings. Another thing that rings true is Rom 11:29 the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. If LCM ever had a God given ministry, then he still does. He does still believe AOS is super relevant. His average teaching time is an hour and a half. He'll ramble, too. He'll tell you what he is going to address, then he'll say an aside lasting 10 minutes or more. He doesn't sound disorganized; he's just trying to put his point in perspective with maybe too much added info.
He still has as much conviction in his voice as he ever did and he sounds more relaxed. I'm glad Leah is posting here. That means something. The first time I went to Emporia was March of 1978. It was when VP taught the red thread. At one point LCM and Donna walked past me. Donna was holding very tiny Leah.
quote: In twi, the "Keys to Walking By the Spirit" included one that claimed that "Speaking in tongues daily is requisite to revelation." In other words, if you want revelation from God Almighty, you need to SIT first. The only explanation I ever heard of that was that, if you want God to speak to you, you should be speaking to Him.
During Living Victoriously VP said "Spiritually I've seen 4 things in life: religion, no religion, corrupt religion, and true Christianity. Still rings true for me.
One consistent symptom of religion is what I call gymnastics. These are activities, practiced or refrained from, that are supposed to help maintain God's presence in your life. God actually does not require these things. I'm talking about things like saying grace before a meal, not working in or out of the home on Sundays, etc. If someone wants to do things like that, no big deal, but God doesn't require them; He loves us no matter what.
In twi, we were definitely guilty of stuff like that. Dan Moran's song comes to mind...when I wake up first thing in the morning I begin with perfect prayer, open up my bible and read, etc. At my wow training we immediately had a believer's meeting upon waking up. Jeez, we were practically still asleep.
So sit is required to get revelation??? God spoke directly to Samuel when he was a child. He wasn't sit. God, or an angel told the magi what to do when they got to Jerusalem. They weren't even jews.
I have listened to a few of LCM recent teachings. Another thing that rings true is Rom 11:29 the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. If LCM ever had a God given ministry, then he still does. He does still believe AOS is super relevant. His average teaching time is an hour and a half. He'll ramble, too. He'll tell you what he is going to address, then he'll say an aside lasting 10 minutes or more. He doesn't sound disorganized; he's just trying to put his point in perspective with maybe too much added info.
He still has as much conviction in his voice as he ever did and he sounds more relaxed. I'm glad Leah is posting here. That means something. The first time I went to Emporia was March of 1978. It was when VP taught the red thread. At one point LCM and Donna walked past me. Donna was holding very tiny Leah.
CG has something in writing that says there's at least 16 things where VP was wrong about something. The big one being that fear is a law. SIT would definitely be a step in the right direction, but so would reading the bible.
"During Living Victoriously VP said 'Spiritually I've seen 4 things in life: religion,noreligion, corrupt religion, and true Christianity. Still rings true for me.'"
Is that what he said? Those are the four things he had seen..."spiritually"? What an odd thing to say. I'm not surprised to learn that victor said something so stupid.
"He (LCM) stillhas as much conviction in his voice as heever did..."
Sounds like LCM is sincere. What did victor say about sincerity?
"CG has something in writing that says there's at least 16 things where VP was wrong about something."
Is that what CG wrote? Sounds like CG either failed to absorb it the first time or he's unable to see the actual number is an order of magnitude greater than 16.
"SIT would definitely be a step in the right direction, but so would reading the bible."
It would? A step in the right direction? Which direction would that be?
"Corrupt religion" is not separate from "religion"- it is a subset of religion where it is misapplied. So, if you've seen "corrupt religion", you've seen "religion"- and that's just following the rules of the English language.
For that matter, "true Christianity" and "religion" are not exclusive categories, either.
James 1:26-27 (KJV)
26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
Here, James was making "religion" sound like a POSITIVE thing, something done by "true Christians." In fact, he gave guildelines for how to properly conduct one's "religion."
Yes, the word "religion" in the Greek is "threskeia", which refers to actions, but Bullinger seemed to be obsessed with considering it a diametrically-opposed OPPOSITE to godliness. If James 1 is correct, then Bullinger was wrong, plain and simple. (Go ahead, check his Greek lexicon. I once used the definitions for "eusebia/ godliness" and "threskeia/religion" and how they contrasted, according to Bullinger, and wrote a whole teaching around that, a long time ago. So, that's going to stay with me.)
James wrote about right actions. He concluded James 1 with that comment, and all of chapter 2 seems to be about how important it is to ACT rightly, to DO rightly, to PERFORM rightly. He talks about the importance of "works"- of acting rightly. If one is determined to ONLY see "works" as "the opposite of grace and unnecessary for Christians"- which WAS pushed by vpw- then one's understanding will be stunted, as will one's spiritual growth.
In the Bible, neither "works" nor "religion" are dirty words.... no matter who taught you otherwise.
CG has something in writing that says there's at least 16 things where VP was wrong about something. The big one being that fear is a law. SIT would definitely be a step in the right direction, but so would reading the bible.
Believing isn't a law either. I'm happy to see that fear not being a law is listed.
Believing isn't a law either. I'm happy to see that fear not being a law is listed.
Indeed. Fear is a natural human reaction at times. It can be lifesaving. That in PFLAP Wierwille dismisses it seems to be just one more way he set the stage for capturing brains for washing. "Don't be afraid of my efforts to indoctrinate you."
Indeed. Fear is a natural human reaction at times. It can be lifesaving. That in PFLAP Wierwille dismisses it seems to be just one more way he set the stage for capturing brains for washing. "Don't be afraid of my efforts to indoctrinate you."
Yeah, it's like being disarmed and left vulnerable.
6 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
Here, James was making "religion" sound like a POSITIVE thing, something done by "true Christians." In fact, he gave guildelines for how to properly conduct one's "religion."
If someone's religion is vain, that isn't intended to be positive.
2Cor11:12-15 - But what I do, that will I do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion, that wherein they glory, they may be found as we / for such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ / and no marvel; for satan himself is transformed into an angel of light / therefore it is no great thing if his (satan's) ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works
Any church minister could earn a spot on that roster. The devil gets more mileage from religion than God. God's 'mileage' (the finished works of Jesus Christ) exponentially supersedes the devil's. It was religious people who had Christ crucified.
2Cor2:17a - for we are not as many which corrupt the word of God...
Many, not few. Corrupt means water down. Those 'he gets us' ads are a good example of that. One of them says Jesus was trying to change the world. Jesus warned his disciples that in the world they would have tribulation, which is still true (John 16:33). He wasn't trying to change the world.
John 4:34 - Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish His work.
That was the entire basis of EVERYTHING he did and said. His whole focus. Mainstream Christianity still teaches that Jesus is God, the dead are alive, and SIT went out with the first century. They are watering down the accomplishments of Jesus Christ when they do that. They are carrying the devil's water for him. That does not please God.
I am a true Christian, and I don't always see religion as positive.
Here, James was making "religion" sound like a POSITIVE thing, something done by "true Christians." In fact, he gave guildelines for how to properly conduct one's "religion."
If someone's religion is vain, that isn't intended to be positive.
2Cor11:12-15 - But what I do, that will I do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion, that wherein they glory, they may be found as we / for such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ / and no marvel; for satan himself is transformed into an angel of light / therefore it is no great thing if his (satan's) ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works
Any church minister could earn a spot on that roster. The devil gets more mileage from religion than God. God's 'mileage' (the finished works of Jesus Christ) exponentially supersedes the devil's. It was religious people who had Christ crucified.
2Cor2:17a - for we are not as many which corrupt the word of God...
Many, not few. Corrupt means water down. Those 'he gets us' ads are a good example of that. One of them says Jesus was trying to change the world. Jesus warned his disciples that in the world they would have tribulation, which is still true (John 16:33). He wasn't trying to change the world.
John 4:34 - Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish His work.
That was the entire basis of EVERYTHING he did and said. His whole focus. Mainstream Christianity still teaches that Jesus is God, the dead are alive, and SIT went out with the first century. They are watering down the accomplishments of Jesus Christ when they do that. They are carrying the devil's water for him. That does not please God.
I am a true Christian, and I don't always see religion as positive.
Thank you for revealing so much about where your head is at.
And if Grease Spotters don’t mind me saying, your rhetoric reminds me a lot of classic wierwille and how he pushed his dubious ideology as the litmus test for true Christianity.
Also, it appears you like using some of Mike’s trolling tactics of demonizing folks who disagree with wierwille’s dubious ideology.
oh, and almost forgot – speaking of the divinity of Jesus Christ – why don’t you man up and reply to at least a few of my posts on the thread you startedin doctrinal forum - The Trinity - asset or liability? – I’ll make it real easy for you – here is my last post T-Bone's post Nov 6th 2022, 9:41 PM on the Trinity, theology, the nature of God . Please respond in a timely manner… unless you prefer to remain the waterboy for a dead cult-leader, providing refreshments for wierwille’s fanbase.
I've never considered it a good sign when posters can spend 10-15 years or more posting and still be unable to avoid mixing their posts with those they respond with. It either means they are technologically incompetent (unlikely) or really don't care about honesty and communicating clearly (bingo.)
Johniam:
"During Living Victoriously VP said "Spiritually I've seen 4 things in life: religion, no religion, corrupt religion, and true Christianity. Still rings true for me. "
WordWolf:
"Corrupt religion" is not separate from "religion"- it is a subset of religion where it is misapplied. So, if you've seen "corrupt religion", you've seen "religion"- and that's just following the rules of the English language.
For that matter, "true Christianity" and "religion" are not exclusive categories, either.
James 1:26-27 (KJV)
26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
Here, James was making "religion" sound like a POSITIVE thing, something done by "true Christians." In fact, he gave guildelines for how to properly conduct one's "religion."
Yes, the word "religion" in the Greek is "threskeia", which refers to actions, but Bullinger seemed to be obsessed with considering it a diametrically-opposed OPPOSITE to godliness. If James 1 is correct, then Bullinger was wrong, plain and simple. (Go ahead, check his Greek lexicon. I once used the definitions for "eusebia/ godliness" and "threskeia/religion" and how they contrasted, according to Bullinger, and wrote a whole teaching around that, a long time ago. So, that's going to stay with me.)
James wrote about right actions. He concluded James 1 with that comment, and all of chapter 2 seems to be about how important it is to ACT rightly, to DO rightly, to PERFORM rightly. He talks about the importance of "works"- of acting rightly. If one is determined to ONLY see "works" as "the opposite of grace and unnecessary for Christians"- which WAS pushed by vpw- then one's understanding will be stunted, as will one's spiritual growth.
In the Bible, neither "works" nor "religion" are dirty words.... no matter who taught you otherwise.
Johniam:
"If someone's religion is vain, that isn't intended to be positive.
2Cor11:12-15 - But what I do, that will I do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion, that wherein they glory, they may be found as we / for such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ / and no marvel; for satan himself is transformed into an angel of light / therefore it is no great thing if his (satan's) ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works
Any church minister could earn a spot on that roster. The devil gets more mileage from religion than God. God's 'mileage' (the finished works of Jesus Christ) exponentially supersedes the devil's. It was religious people who had Christ crucified.
2Cor2:17a - for we are not as many which corrupt the word of God...
Many, not few. Corrupt means water down. Those 'he gets us' ads are a good example of that. One of them says Jesus was trying to change the world. Jesus warned his disciples that in the world they would have tribulation, which is still true (John 16:33). He wasn't trying to change the world.
John 4:34 - Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish His work.
That was the entire basis of EVERYTHING he did and said. His whole focus. Mainstream Christianity still teaches that Jesus is God, the dead are alive, and SIT went out with the first century. They are watering down the accomplishments of Jesus Christ when they do that. They are carrying the devil's water for him. That does not please God.
I am a true Christian, and I don't always see religion as positive."
WordWolf: "Anyone who read that same passage in James could see that James made a contrast between VAIN religion and TRUE religion- HIS terms, not mine- and gave examples of TRUE religion. Nobody should need me to tell them that's what it said, since that's what it said. In the Bible "religion" isn't a dirty word, no matter who taught you otherwise. Now, VAIN religion is bad- which is really a stupid thing to have to specify. "Bad religion is bad, good religion is good." "Vain religion is bad, true religion is good." If you're determined to argue against that, well, you're arguing against a plain read of James, and that's on you.
The digression into church ministers is dishonest.
Are there ministers who are dishonest? Sure- vpw was one, lcm was another, and there were many before them, after them and operating at the same time.
Can we FAIRLY say ALL ministers are dishonest? "Any church minister could earn a spot on that roster." No, we could NOT fairly say that. Right now, there are ministers-in-training who put everything they've got into trying to be their best for God. Right now, there are serving ministers who put everything they've got into trying to be their best for God. They put in hundreds of hours of work, thousands of hours of work- to help people, to understand and teach clearly, to pray for God's people, to live spotless lives as examples to God's people. There's lots of them right now, all over the place.
If that's so, then why don't you trip over them?
Well, I've bumped into some. If you're not, perhaps it's an example of how a thief never seems to find a policeman.
Oh, and it's cute that the one measure of who's a "true" Christian is "the Christians who agree with me are the true Christians, and the ones who don't, are not the true Christians." Signs and miracles appear with plenty of Christians with whom you disagree and on whom you slap a label.
"I don't always see religion as positive."
Nobody does, and pretending they do doesn't change that. But I agree with James that there's a place for pure religion, and there's a place for doing good works. I've found that those determined to vilify ALL doing of good works CATEGORICALLY are doing so for an unstated reason- usually to excuse themselves from lifting a finger. That certainly was what we were taught in twi, quite often.[/b]
Geez, I've REALLY got into your heads. I'm just a guy with 1/2 brain plus a double wide opinion. I'm not a gospel writer. If y'all are so sure what you claim to believe about VP, why would you let someone like me bug you so much? Are you really sure, or are you trying to kick start your faith by posting as abbrasively as you do to me. I'm sure of what I believe. Nathan seems to think it's his moral duty to "ridicule the ridiculous". What happens if HE turns out to be ridiculous?
Some people wet themselves when they get a little attention…and use the same trolling tactics as the other hobgoblin…why do provocateurs persist? And yet they are the victim they insist…oh stupidity where is thy sting? Oh stink where is thy bull-$honta?
quote: Indeed. Fear is a natural human reaction at times. It can be lifesaving. That in PFLAP Wierwille dismisses it seems to be just one more way he set the stage for capturing brains for washing. "Don't be afraid of my efforts to indoctrinate you."
As a twig coordinator back in 84/85 I got what was called the 'tape of the month'. One of them was a 2 tape set from Walter Cummins. He spent a good bit of time differentiating between natural fear and the learned reflex of fear pfal taught against. My understanding is that VP actually wanted other people to do research even if it proved him wrong. Could be like a campaign slogan; could be true.
quote: Believing isn't a law either. I'm happy to see that fear not being a law is listed.
In Romans 3:27 there is a reference to the law of faith, however it is contrasted with the law of works, referring to that of the old covenant, so calling it a law means it will yield the same benefits in the new covenant as obeying the law of works did in the old covenant. It does not mean that our minds are rayguns and with believing we can zap the raygun and get whatever we want (believe for). If you genuinely receive the word of God, you can believe it without fear even if it contradicts the 5 senses. Nothing more.
quote: Indeed. Fear is a natural human reaction at times. It can be lifesaving. That in PFLAP Wierwille dismisses it seems to be just one more way he set the stage for capturing brains for washing. "Don't be afraid of my efforts to indoctrinate you."
As a twig coordinator back in 84/85 I got what was called the 'tape of the month'. One of them was a 2 tape set from Walter Cummins. He spent a good bit of time differentiating between natural fear and the learned reflex of fear pfal taught against. My understanding is that VP actually wanted other people to do research even if it proved him wrong. Could be like a campaign slogan; could be true.
quote: Believing isn't a law either. I'm happy to see that fear not being a law is listed.
In Romans 3:27 there is a reference to the law of faith, however it is contrasted with the law of works, referring to that of the old covenant, so calling it a law means it will yield the same benefits in the new covenant as obeying the law of works did in the old covenant. It does not mean that our minds are rayguns and with believing we can zap the raygun and get whatever we want (believe for). If you genuinely receive the word of God, you can believe it without fear even if it contradicts the 5 senses. Nothing more.
I do not doubt you think that. I used to believe that too. However, actions do speak louder than words. From my 12 years of involvement with TWI and from the preponderance of anecdotal evidence from many others I know beyond a reasonable doubt that wierwille did not like to be challenged.
The excessive admiration for wierwille may be partly due to a self-imposed paradigm shift that cult-followers experience – most TWI-followers tend to view wierwille in a very positive light. In Shakespeare’s Merchant of Venice, the character Jessica said love is blind. That seems to be a timeless truth indeed – when we love someone, we tend to overlook their faults.
I never took notice of wierwille’s self-promotion. I believed him when he spoke of his early struggle as a simple clergyman frustrated with the lack of answers and power in his life until God spoke to him. That is the unvarnished truth of why I was attracted to wierwille and his ministry. It was the promise of getting answers to the big questions in life and experience whatever it was to tap into the power of God. For whatever reasons or delusions that drove wierwille, I think he framed himself as being honest and humble.
But besides whatever reasons anyone may have had to hold wierwille in such high regard – there is another more alarming explanation for wierwille possessing such favor - he demanded the utmost respect from his followers!
That is something common in harmful and controlling cult-leaders. They REQUIRE excessive admiration...Consider some excerpts from a Joe Navarro article.
Navarro said the two questions he gets asked most frequently by students of criminology and psychology are: How do you know when a cult leader is bad, evil, or toxic? and when is a cult leader pathological or a danger to others?Navarro said those are valid questions in view of the historical record of suffering and hurt caused by various cult leaders around the world:
“From my studies of cults and cult leaders during my time in the FBI, I learned early on that there are some things to look for that, at a minimum, say "caution, this individual is dangerous, and in all likelihood will cause harm to others. Having studied at length the life, teachings, and behaviors of Jim Jones (Jonestown Guyana), David Koresh (Branch Davidians), Stewart Traill (The Church of Bible Understanding), Charles Manson, Shoko Asahara (Aum Shinrikyo), Joseph Di Mambro (The Order of the Solar Temple a.k.a. Ordre du Temple Solaire), Marshall Heff Applewhit (Heaven’s Gate), Bhagwan Rajneesh (Rajneesh Movement), and Warren Jeffs (polygamist leader), I can say that what stands out about these individuals is that they were or are all pathologically narcissistic.
They all have or had an overabundant belief that they were special, that they and they alone had the answers to problems, and that they had to be revered. They demanded perfect loyalty from followers, they overvalued themselves and devalued those around them, they were intolerant of criticism, and above all they did not like being questioned or challenged. And yet, in spite of these less than charming traits, they had no trouble attracting those who were willing to overlook these features…
…These personality traits stand out as the first warning to those who would associate with them, but there are many others. Here is a collection of traits of cult leaders that give us hints as to their psychopathology. This list is not all-inclusive nor is it the final word on the subject; it is merely my personal collection based on studies and interviews that I conducted in my previous career.
If you know of a cult leader who has many of these traits there is a high probability that they are hurting those around them emotionally, psychologically, physically, spiritually, or financially. And of course, this does not take into account the hurt that their loved ones will also experience.
Here are the typical traits of the pathological cult leader (from Dangerous Personalities) that you should watch for:
1. He has a grandiose idea of who he is and what he can achieve.
2. Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, or brilliance.
3. Demands blind, unquestioned obedience.
4. Requires excessive admiration from followers and outsiders.
5. Has a sense of entitlement—expecting to be treated as special at all times.
6. Is exploitative of others by asking for their money or that of relatives, putting others at financial risk.
7. Is arrogant and haughty in his behavior or attitude.
8. Has an exaggerated sense of power (entitlement) that allows him to bend rules and break laws.
9. Takes sexual advantage of members of his sect or cult.
10. Sex is a requirement with adults and sub adults as part of a ritual or rite.
11. Is hypersensitive to how he is seen or perceived by others.
12. Publicly devalues others as being inferior, incapable, or not worthy.
13. Makes members confess their sins or faults, publicly subjecting them to ridicule or humiliation while revealing exploitable weaknesses of the penitent.
14. Has ignored the needs of others, including: biological, physical, emotional, and financial needs.
15. Is frequently boastful of accomplishments.
16. Needs to be the center of attention and does things to distract others to ensure that he or she is being noticed, e.g., by arriving late, using exotic clothing, overdramatic speech, or by making theatrical entrances.
17. Has insisted on always having the best of anything (house, car, jewelry, clothes) even when others are relegated to lesser facilities, amenities, or clothing.
18. Doesn’t seem to listen well to needs of others; communication is usually one-way, in the form of dictates.
19. Haughtiness, grandiosity, and the need to be controlling is part of his personality.
20. Behaves as though people are objects to be used, manipulated or exploited for personal gain.
21. When criticized he tends to lash out not just with anger but with rage.
22. Anyone who criticizes or questions him is called an “enemy.”
23. Refers to non-members or non-believers as “the enemy.”
24. Acts imperious at times, not wishing to know what others think or desire.
25. Believes himself to be omnipotent.
26. Has “magical” answers or solutions to problems.
27. Is superficially charming.
28. Habitually puts down others as inferior; only he is superior.
29. Has a certain coldness or aloofness about him that makes others worry about who this person really is and or whether they really know him.
30. Is deeply offended when there are perceived signs of boredom, being ignored or of being slighted.
31. Treats others with contempt and arrogance.
32. Is constantly assessing people to determine those who are a threat or those who revere him.
33. The word “I” dominates his conversations. He is oblivious to how often he references himself.
34. Hates to be embarrassed or fail publicly; when he does he acts out with rage.
35. Doesn’t seem to feel guilty for anything he has done wrong nor does he apologize for his actions.
36. Believes he possesses the answers and solutions to world problems.
37. Believes himself to be a deity or a chosen representative of a deity.
38. "Rigid," "unbending," or "insensitive" describes how this person thinks.
39. Tries to control others in what they do, read, view, or think.
40. Has isolated members of his sect from contact with family or the outside world.
41. Monitors and/or restricts contact with family or outsiders.
42. Works the least but demands the most.
43. Has stated that he is “destined for greatness” or that he will be “martyred.”
44. Seems to be highly dependent on tribute and adoration and will often fish for compliments.
45. Uses enforcers or sycophants to ensure compliance from members or believers.
46. Sees self as “unstoppable” and perhaps has even said so.
47. Conceals background or family, which would disclose how plain or ordinary he is.
48. Doesn’t think there is anything wrong with himself and in fact sees himself as perfection or “blessed.”
49. Has taken away followers' freedom to leave, to travel, to pursue life and liberty.
50. Has isolated the group physically (moved to a remote area) so as to not be observed.
this is the list that I use to survey the cult leader for dangerous traits. Of course the only way to know anything for sure is to observe and validate, but these characteristics can go a long way to help with that. And as I have said, there are other things to look for and there may be other lists, but this is the one that I found most useful from studying these groups and talking to former members of cults.
When a cult or organizational leader has a preponderance of these traits then we can anticipate that at some point those who associate with him will likely suffer physically, emotionally, psychologically, or financially. If these traits sound familiar to leaders, groups, sects, or organizations known to you, then expect those who associate with them to live in despair and to suffer, even if they don’t know yet that they will.”
End of excerpts
~ ~ ~ ~
As I look over the above list of 50 typical traits of the pathological cult leader – it’s sad and unsettling to realize that most of them are a spot-on reflection of wierwille. Another treacherous aspect of pseudo-Christian groups like The Way International is how their trap is already primed for unsuspecting victims who are much more likely to be attracted to traditional belief systems like Christianity – something many people are familiar with – compared to something like Scientology.
That leads me to think that to understand the power of harmful and controlling pseudo-Christian cults we should look more at their methods than their seemingly innocuous statements of belief. The trick is to see how these harmful and controlling cults put their “theories” into practice – by twisting Scripture…misinterpreting Scripture…misapplying Scripture to facilitate…to justify…to excuse their bad behavior and exploit others...and most of all wierwille presented teachings in such a way that it's intimidating to followers who might otherwise question something - but remain quiet fearing the consequences of what might be akin to challenging Moses giving the 10 commandments.
“…VP actually wanted other people to do research even if it proved him wrong. Could be like a campaign slogan; could be true…” Nope – I don’t think so.
As a side note, I’m not really impressed with Walter C.. If you haven’t read it already you should check out Penworks’ book Undertow: My Escape from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way Internationaland you’ll find out how Walter caved in to the pressure wierwille employed for Walter to mistranslate a text to suit wierwille’s agenda…Your friend Mike is super busy cleaning windows andtrolling posting on Grease Spot that it’s taking him forever to get through it – perhaps you’ll finish it before him - - but it’s an easy read showing the inner workings of TWI and you might find some stuff that resonates with your own experiences.
quote: oh, and almost forgot – speaking of the divinity of Jesus Christ – why don’t you man up and reply to at least a few of my posts on the threadyou startedindoctrinal forum-The Trinity - asset or liability?– I’ll make it real easy for you – here is my last postT-Bone's post Nov 6th 2022, 9:41 PM on the Trinity, theology, the nature of God. Please respond in a timely manner… unless you prefer to remain the waterboy for a dead cult-leader, providing refreshments for wierwille’s fanbase.
First, you must understand it is easy for me to read seemingly endless posts of slander, if not devoid of substance, and it's easy for me to conclude that enough is enough and I'm not reading any more of this crap. However, I did start that thread, and if you really wanted a response to something I was going to try to accommodate you. But, you want me to respond in a timely manner, yet, it would be impossible to even read those posts in a timely manner. My strategy is simple, like the cliche, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. The word of God, as taught by VP, for the most part, ain't broke. I believe that so called 'cult awareness' is socially acceptable bigotry which does more harm than good. It encourages people to get in panic mode and throw out the baby with the bath water. I refuse to share that with you and your ilk.
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T-Bone
Oh yeah – you nailed it Bolshevik! An alarming aspect of TWI-follower’s/big PFAL-fans’ fascination with demonology is the amount of control it affords cult-leaders. They elevate consequen
Twinky
Good lord, is that Craig? His vaunted golden hair has slipped down to his chin, and gone grey? Still got the scowl, though.
BecomingMe
Hi, friends! Sorry I'm late to the party. I step in and out of cult world, because it's just too heavy sometimes. I'm Craig's oldest kid and wanted to jump on this thread to help out if I can...
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Twinky
Australian red wines are really good. Better than a lot of French wines. But hey... red wine :))
Champers for breakfast, wow!
Caught a plane once, crossed many time zones. Can't think why now, but passengers were offered champagne at some ridiculous hour. Might have been breakfast. Might have been 3 or 4 or 5am. Except that the airline said it was -- an evening meal? Long distance travel can be so confusing!
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Nathan_Jr
Ok, OZ it is, then - I'll drink some Grange with you.
I was an importer/distributor for many years, many years ago. I drank a glass of Champagne at lunch almost everyday. I appreciated that it paired with virtually every food and I could return to work sober. And the most effectual cure for a hangover is ice cold Champagne.
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johniam
quote: In twi, the "Keys to Walking By the Spirit" included one that claimed that "Speaking in tongues daily is requisite to revelation." In other words, if you want revelation from God Almighty, you need to SIT first. The only explanation I ever heard of that was that, if you want God to speak to you, you should be speaking to Him.
During Living Victoriously VP said "Spiritually I've seen 4 things in life: religion, no religion, corrupt religion, and true Christianity. Still rings true for me.
One consistent symptom of religion is what I call gymnastics. These are activities, practiced or refrained from, that are supposed to help maintain God's presence in your life. God actually does not require these things. I'm talking about things like saying grace before a meal, not working in or out of the home on Sundays, etc. If someone wants to do things like that, no big deal, but God doesn't require them; He loves us no matter what.
In twi, we were definitely guilty of stuff like that. Dan Moran's song comes to mind...when I wake up first thing in the morning I begin with perfect prayer, open up my bible and read, etc. At my wow training we immediately had a believer's meeting upon waking up. Jeez, we were practically still asleep.
So sit is required to get revelation??? God spoke directly to Samuel when he was a child. He wasn't sit. God, or an angel told the magi what to do when they got to Jerusalem. They weren't even jews.
I have listened to a few of LCM recent teachings. Another thing that rings true is Rom 11:29 the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. If LCM ever had a God given ministry, then he still does. He does still believe AOS is super relevant. His average teaching time is an hour and a half. He'll ramble, too. He'll tell you what he is going to address, then he'll say an aside lasting 10 minutes or more. He doesn't sound disorganized; he's just trying to put his point in perspective with maybe too much added info.
He still has as much conviction in his voice as he ever did and he sounds more relaxed. I'm glad Leah is posting here. That means something. The first time I went to Emporia was March of 1978. It was when VP taught the red thread. At one point LCM and Donna walked past me. Donna was holding very tiny Leah.
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waysider
Just thought I'd point out, it was Wierwille, himself, who made this claim.
(Page 10 or 11 in the Advanced Class syllabus)
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johniam
quote: In twi, the "Keys to Walking By the Spirit" included one that claimed that "Speaking in tongues daily is requisite to revelation." In other words, if you want revelation from God Almighty, you need to SIT first. The only explanation I ever heard of that was that, if you want God to speak to you, you should be speaking to Him.
During Living Victoriously VP said "Spiritually I've seen 4 things in life: religion, no religion, corrupt religion, and true Christianity. Still rings true for me.
One consistent symptom of religion is what I call gymnastics. These are activities, practiced or refrained from, that are supposed to help maintain God's presence in your life. God actually does not require these things. I'm talking about things like saying grace before a meal, not working in or out of the home on Sundays, etc. If someone wants to do things like that, no big deal, but God doesn't require them; He loves us no matter what.
In twi, we were definitely guilty of stuff like that. Dan Moran's song comes to mind...when I wake up first thing in the morning I begin with perfect prayer, open up my bible and read, etc. At my wow training we immediately had a believer's meeting upon waking up. Jeez, we were practically still asleep.
So sit is required to get revelation??? God spoke directly to Samuel when he was a child. He wasn't sit. God, or an angel told the magi what to do when they got to Jerusalem. They weren't even jews.
I have listened to a few of LCM recent teachings. Another thing that rings true is Rom 11:29 the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. If LCM ever had a God given ministry, then he still does. He does still believe AOS is super relevant. His average teaching time is an hour and a half. He'll ramble, too. He'll tell you what he is going to address, then he'll say an aside lasting 10 minutes or more. He doesn't sound disorganized; he's just trying to put his point in perspective with maybe too much added info.
He still has as much conviction in his voice as he ever did and he sounds more relaxed. I'm glad Leah is posting here. That means something. The first time I went to Emporia was March of 1978. It was when VP taught the red thread. At one point LCM and Donna walked past me. Donna was holding very tiny Leah.
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johniam
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Nathan_Jr
"During Living Victoriously VP said 'Spiritually I've seen 4 things in life: religion, noreligion, corrupt religion, and true Christianity. Still rings true for me.'"
Is that what he said? Those are the four things he had seen..."spiritually"? What an odd thing to say. I'm not surprised to learn that victor said something so stupid.
"He (LCM) still has as much conviction in his voice as he ever did..."
Sounds like LCM is sincere. What did victor say about sincerity?
"CG has something in writing that says there's at least 16 things where VP was wrong about something."
Is that what CG wrote? Sounds like CG either failed to absorb it the first time or he's unable to see the actual number is an order of magnitude greater than 16.
"SIT would definitely be a step in the right direction, but so would reading the bible."
It would? A step in the right direction? Which direction would that be?
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johniam
I've really gotten inside your head, haven't I? Get over yourself.
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Nathan_Jr
The ridiculous shall be ridiculed.
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WordWolf
"Corrupt religion" is not separate from "religion"- it is a subset of religion where it is misapplied. So, if you've seen "corrupt religion", you've seen "religion"- and that's just following the rules of the English language.
For that matter, "true Christianity" and "religion" are not exclusive categories, either.
James 1:26-27 (KJV)
26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
Here, James was making "religion" sound like a POSITIVE thing, something done by "true Christians." In fact, he gave guildelines for how to properly conduct one's "religion."
Yes, the word "religion" in the Greek is "threskeia", which refers to actions, but Bullinger seemed to be obsessed with considering it a diametrically-opposed OPPOSITE to godliness. If James 1 is correct, then Bullinger was wrong, plain and simple. (Go ahead, check his Greek lexicon. I once used the definitions for "eusebia/ godliness" and "threskeia/religion" and how they contrasted, according to Bullinger, and wrote a whole teaching around that, a long time ago. So, that's going to stay with me.)
James wrote about right actions. He concluded James 1 with that comment, and all of chapter 2 seems to be about how important it is to ACT rightly, to DO rightly, to PERFORM rightly. He talks about the importance of "works"- of acting rightly. If one is determined to ONLY see "works" as "the opposite of grace and unnecessary for Christians"- which WAS pushed by vpw- then one's understanding will be stunted, as will one's spiritual growth.
In the Bible, neither "works" nor "religion" are dirty words.... no matter who taught you otherwise.
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OldSkool
Believing isn't a law either. I'm happy to see that fear not being a law is listed.
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Rocky
Indeed. Fear is a natural human reaction at times. It can be lifesaving. That in PFLAP Wierwille dismisses it seems to be just one more way he set the stage for capturing brains for washing. "Don't be afraid of my efforts to indoctrinate you."
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OldSkool
Yeah, it's like being disarmed and left vulnerable.
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johniam
quote:
6 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
Here, James was making "religion" sound like a POSITIVE thing, something done by "true Christians." In fact, he gave guildelines for how to properly conduct one's "religion."
If someone's religion is vain, that isn't intended to be positive.
2Cor11:12-15 - But what I do, that will I do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion, that wherein they glory, they may be found as we / for such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ / and no marvel; for satan himself is transformed into an angel of light / therefore it is no great thing if his (satan's) ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works
Any church minister could earn a spot on that roster. The devil gets more mileage from religion than God. God's 'mileage' (the finished works of Jesus Christ) exponentially supersedes the devil's. It was religious people who had Christ crucified.
2Cor2:17a - for we are not as many which corrupt the word of God...
Many, not few. Corrupt means water down. Those 'he gets us' ads are a good example of that. One of them says Jesus was trying to change the world. Jesus warned his disciples that in the world they would have tribulation, which is still true (John 16:33). He wasn't trying to change the world.
John 4:34 - Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish His work.
That was the entire basis of EVERYTHING he did and said. His whole focus. Mainstream Christianity still teaches that Jesus is God, the dead are alive, and SIT went out with the first century. They are watering down the accomplishments of Jesus Christ when they do that. They are carrying the devil's water for him. That does not please God.
I am a true Christian, and I don't always see religion as positive.
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T-Bone
Thank you for revealing so much about where your head is at.
And if Grease Spotters don’t mind me saying, your rhetoric reminds me a lot of classic wierwille and how he pushed his dubious ideology as the litmus test for true Christianity.
Also, it appears you like using some of Mike’s trolling tactics of demonizing folks who disagree with wierwille’s dubious ideology.
oh, and almost forgot – speaking of the divinity of Jesus Christ – why don’t you man up and reply to at least a few of my posts on the thread you started in doctrinal forum - The Trinity - asset or liability? – I’ll make it real easy for you – here is my last post T-Bone's post Nov 6th 2022, 9:41 PM on the Trinity, theology, the nature of God . Please respond in a timely manner… unless you prefer to remain the waterboy for a dead cult-leader, providing refreshments for wierwille’s fanbase.
anyway, have a nice day 'true Christian'
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Nathan_Jr
I’m a true Christian, says every Christian ever.
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Nathan_Jr
Corrupt could mean watered-down or adulterated. But corrupt is not in the text. I'm sure many, not few, already know this.
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WordWolf
I've never considered it a good sign when posters can spend 10-15 years or more posting and still be unable to avoid mixing their posts with those they respond with. It either means they are technologically incompetent (unlikely) or really don't care about honesty and communicating clearly (bingo.)
Johniam:
"During Living Victoriously VP said "Spiritually I've seen 4 things in life: religion, no religion, corrupt religion, and true Christianity. Still rings true for me. "
WordWolf:
"Corrupt religion" is not separate from "religion"- it is a subset of religion where it is misapplied. So, if you've seen "corrupt religion", you've seen "religion"- and that's just following the rules of the English language.
For that matter, "true Christianity" and "religion" are not exclusive categories, either.
James 1:26-27 (KJV)
26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
Here, James was making "religion" sound like a POSITIVE thing, something done by "true Christians." In fact, he gave guildelines for how to properly conduct one's "religion."
Yes, the word "religion" in the Greek is "threskeia", which refers to actions, but Bullinger seemed to be obsessed with considering it a diametrically-opposed OPPOSITE to godliness. If James 1 is correct, then Bullinger was wrong, plain and simple. (Go ahead, check his Greek lexicon. I once used the definitions for "eusebia/ godliness" and "threskeia/religion" and how they contrasted, according to Bullinger, and wrote a whole teaching around that, a long time ago. So, that's going to stay with me.)
James wrote about right actions. He concluded James 1 with that comment, and all of chapter 2 seems to be about how important it is to ACT rightly, to DO rightly, to PERFORM rightly. He talks about the importance of "works"- of acting rightly. If one is determined to ONLY see "works" as "the opposite of grace and unnecessary for Christians"- which WAS pushed by vpw- then one's understanding will be stunted, as will one's spiritual growth.
In the Bible, neither "works" nor "religion" are dirty words.... no matter who taught you otherwise.
Johniam:
"If someone's religion is vain, that isn't intended to be positive.
2Cor11:12-15 - But what I do, that will I do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion, that wherein they glory, they may be found as we / for such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ / and no marvel; for satan himself is transformed into an angel of light / therefore it is no great thing if his (satan's) ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works
Any church minister could earn a spot on that roster. The devil gets more mileage from religion than God. God's 'mileage' (the finished works of Jesus Christ) exponentially supersedes the devil's. It was religious people who had Christ crucified.
2Cor2:17a - for we are not as many which corrupt the word of God...
Many, not few. Corrupt means water down. Those 'he gets us' ads are a good example of that. One of them says Jesus was trying to change the world. Jesus warned his disciples that in the world they would have tribulation, which is still true (John 16:33). He wasn't trying to change the world.
John 4:34 - Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish His work.
That was the entire basis of EVERYTHING he did and said. His whole focus. Mainstream Christianity still teaches that Jesus is God, the dead are alive, and SIT went out with the first century. They are watering down the accomplishments of Jesus Christ when they do that. They are carrying the devil's water for him. That does not please God.
I am a true Christian, and I don't always see religion as positive."
WordWolf: "Anyone who read that same passage in James could see that James made a contrast between VAIN religion and TRUE religion- HIS terms, not mine- and gave examples of TRUE religion. Nobody should need me to tell them that's what it said, since that's what it said. In the Bible "religion" isn't a dirty word, no matter who taught you otherwise. Now, VAIN religion is bad- which is really a stupid thing to have to specify. "Bad religion is bad, good religion is good." "Vain religion is bad, true religion is good." If you're determined to argue against that, well, you're arguing against a plain read of James, and that's on you.
The digression into church ministers is dishonest.
Are there ministers who are dishonest? Sure- vpw was one, lcm was another, and there were many before them, after them and operating at the same time.
Can we FAIRLY say ALL ministers are dishonest? "Any church minister could earn a spot on that roster." No, we could NOT fairly say that. Right now, there are ministers-in-training who put everything they've got into trying to be their best for God. Right now, there are serving ministers who put everything they've got into trying to be their best for God. They put in hundreds of hours of work, thousands of hours of work- to help people, to understand and teach clearly, to pray for God's people, to live spotless lives as examples to God's people. There's lots of them right now, all over the place.
If that's so, then why don't you trip over them?
Well, I've bumped into some. If you're not, perhaps it's an example of how a thief never seems to find a policeman.
Oh, and it's cute that the one measure of who's a "true" Christian is "the Christians who agree with me are the true Christians, and the ones who don't, are not the true Christians." Signs and miracles appear with plenty of Christians with whom you disagree and on whom you slap a label.
"I don't always see religion as positive."
Nobody does, and pretending they do doesn't change that. But I agree with James that there's a place for pure religion, and there's a place for doing good works. I've found that those determined to vilify ALL doing of good works CATEGORICALLY are doing so for an unstated reason- usually to excuse themselves from lifting a finger. That certainly was what we were taught in twi, quite often.[/b]
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johniam
Geez, I've REALLY got into your heads. I'm just a guy with 1/2 brain plus a double wide opinion. I'm not a gospel writer. If y'all are so sure what you claim to believe about VP, why would you let someone like me bug you so much? Are you really sure, or are you trying to kick start your faith by posting as abbrasively as you do to me. I'm sure of what I believe. Nathan seems to think it's his moral duty to "ridicule the ridiculous". What happens if HE turns out to be ridiculous?
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T-Bone
Some people wet themselves when they get a little attention…and use the same trolling tactics as the other hobgoblin…why do provocateurs persist? And yet they are the victim they insist…oh stupidity where is thy sting? Oh stink where is thy bull-$honta?
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johniam
quote: Indeed. Fear is a natural human reaction at times. It can be lifesaving. That in PFLAP Wierwille dismisses it seems to be just one more way he set the stage for capturing brains for washing. "Don't be afraid of my efforts to indoctrinate you."
As a twig coordinator back in 84/85 I got what was called the 'tape of the month'. One of them was a 2 tape set from Walter Cummins. He spent a good bit of time differentiating between natural fear and the learned reflex of fear pfal taught against. My understanding is that VP actually wanted other people to do research even if it proved him wrong. Could be like a campaign slogan; could be true.
quote: Believing isn't a law either. I'm happy to see that fear not being a law is listed.
In Romans 3:27 there is a reference to the law of faith, however it is contrasted with the law of works, referring to that of the old covenant, so calling it a law means it will yield the same benefits in the new covenant as obeying the law of works did in the old covenant. It does not mean that our minds are rayguns and with believing we can zap the raygun and get whatever we want (believe for). If you genuinely receive the word of God, you can believe it without fear even if it contradicts the 5 senses. Nothing more.
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T-Bone
I do not doubt you think that. I used to believe that too. However, actions do speak louder than words. From my 12 years of involvement with TWI and from the preponderance of anecdotal evidence from many others I know beyond a reasonable doubt that wierwille did not like to be challenged.
The excessive admiration for wierwille may be partly due to a self-imposed paradigm shift that cult-followers experience – most TWI-followers tend to view wierwille in a very positive light. In Shakespeare’s Merchant of Venice, the character Jessica said love is blind. That seems to be a timeless truth indeed – when we love someone, we tend to overlook their faults.
I never took notice of wierwille’s self-promotion. I believed him when he spoke of his early struggle as a simple clergyman frustrated with the lack of answers and power in his life until God spoke to him. That is the unvarnished truth of why I was attracted to wierwille and his ministry. It was the promise of getting answers to the big questions in life and experience whatever it was to tap into the power of God. For whatever reasons or delusions that drove wierwille, I think he framed himself as being honest and humble.
But besides whatever reasons anyone may have had to hold wierwille in such high regard – there is another more alarming explanation for wierwille possessing such favor - he demanded the utmost respect from his followers!
That is something common in harmful and controlling cult-leaders. They REQUIRE excessive admiration...Consider some excerpts from a Joe Navarro article.
Joe Navarro, a former FBI Counterintelligence Agent and the author of What Every BODY is Saying: An Ex-FBI Agent's Guide to Speed-Reading People wrote an August 2012 Psychology Today article Psychology Today: Dangerous Cult Leaders, Clues to what makes for a pathological cult leader
Navarro said the two questions he gets asked most frequently by students of criminology and psychology are: How do you know when a cult leader is bad, evil, or toxic? and when is a cult leader pathological or a danger to others? Navarro said those are valid questions in view of the historical record of suffering and hurt caused by various cult leaders around the world:
“From my studies of cults and cult leaders during my time in the FBI, I learned early on that there are some things to look for that, at a minimum, say "caution, this individual is dangerous, and in all likelihood will cause harm to others. Having studied at length the life, teachings, and behaviors of Jim Jones (Jonestown Guyana), David Koresh (Branch Davidians), Stewart Traill (The Church of Bible Understanding), Charles Manson, Shoko Asahara (Aum Shinrikyo), Joseph Di Mambro (The Order of the Solar Temple a.k.a. Ordre du Temple Solaire), Marshall Heff Applewhit (Heaven’s Gate), Bhagwan Rajneesh (Rajneesh Movement), and Warren Jeffs (polygamist leader), I can say that what stands out about these individuals is that they were or are all pathologically narcissistic.
They all have or had an overabundant belief that they were special, that they and they alone had the answers to problems, and that they had to be revered. They demanded perfect loyalty from followers, they overvalued themselves and devalued those around them, they were intolerant of criticism, and above all they did not like being questioned or challenged. And yet, in spite of these less than charming traits, they had no trouble attracting those who were willing to overlook these features…
…These personality traits stand out as the first warning to those who would associate with them, but there are many others. Here is a collection of traits of cult leaders that give us hints as to their psychopathology. This list is not all-inclusive nor is it the final word on the subject; it is merely my personal collection based on studies and interviews that I conducted in my previous career.
If you know of a cult leader who has many of these traits there is a high probability that they are hurting those around them emotionally, psychologically, physically, spiritually, or financially. And of course, this does not take into account the hurt that their loved ones will also experience.
Here are the typical traits of the pathological cult leader (from Dangerous Personalities) that you should watch for:
1. He has a grandiose idea of who he is and what he can achieve.
2. Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, or brilliance.
3. Demands blind, unquestioned obedience.
4. Requires excessive admiration from followers and outsiders.
5. Has a sense of entitlement—expecting to be treated as special at all times.
6. Is exploitative of others by asking for their money or that of relatives, putting others at financial risk.
7. Is arrogant and haughty in his behavior or attitude.
8. Has an exaggerated sense of power (entitlement) that allows him to bend rules and break laws.
9. Takes sexual advantage of members of his sect or cult.
10. Sex is a requirement with adults and sub adults as part of a ritual or rite.
11. Is hypersensitive to how he is seen or perceived by others.
12. Publicly devalues others as being inferior, incapable, or not worthy.
13. Makes members confess their sins or faults, publicly subjecting them to ridicule or humiliation while revealing exploitable weaknesses of the penitent.
14. Has ignored the needs of others, including: biological, physical, emotional, and financial needs.
15. Is frequently boastful of accomplishments.
16. Needs to be the center of attention and does things to distract others to ensure that he or she is being noticed, e.g., by arriving late, using exotic clothing, overdramatic speech, or by making theatrical entrances.
17. Has insisted on always having the best of anything (house, car, jewelry, clothes) even when others are relegated to lesser facilities, amenities, or clothing.
18. Doesn’t seem to listen well to needs of others; communication is usually one-way, in the form of dictates.
19. Haughtiness, grandiosity, and the need to be controlling is part of his personality.
20. Behaves as though people are objects to be used, manipulated or exploited for personal gain.
21. When criticized he tends to lash out not just with anger but with rage.
22. Anyone who criticizes or questions him is called an “enemy.”
23. Refers to non-members or non-believers as “the enemy.”
24. Acts imperious at times, not wishing to know what others think or desire.
25. Believes himself to be omnipotent.
26. Has “magical” answers or solutions to problems.
27. Is superficially charming.
28. Habitually puts down others as inferior; only he is superior.
29. Has a certain coldness or aloofness about him that makes others worry about who this person really is and or whether they really know him.
30. Is deeply offended when there are perceived signs of boredom, being ignored or of being slighted.
31. Treats others with contempt and arrogance.
32. Is constantly assessing people to determine those who are a threat or those who revere him.
33. The word “I” dominates his conversations. He is oblivious to how often he references himself.
34. Hates to be embarrassed or fail publicly; when he does he acts out with rage.
35. Doesn’t seem to feel guilty for anything he has done wrong nor does he apologize for his actions.
36. Believes he possesses the answers and solutions to world problems.
37. Believes himself to be a deity or a chosen representative of a deity.
38. "Rigid," "unbending," or "insensitive" describes how this person thinks.
39. Tries to control others in what they do, read, view, or think.
40. Has isolated members of his sect from contact with family or the outside world.
41. Monitors and/or restricts contact with family or outsiders.
42. Works the least but demands the most.
43. Has stated that he is “destined for greatness” or that he will be “martyred.”
44. Seems to be highly dependent on tribute and adoration and will often fish for compliments.
45. Uses enforcers or sycophants to ensure compliance from members or believers.
46. Sees self as “unstoppable” and perhaps has even said so.
47. Conceals background or family, which would disclose how plain or ordinary he is.
48. Doesn’t think there is anything wrong with himself and in fact sees himself as perfection or “blessed.”
49. Has taken away followers' freedom to leave, to travel, to pursue life and liberty.
50. Has isolated the group physically (moved to a remote area) so as to not be observed.
this is the list that I use to survey the cult leader for dangerous traits. Of course the only way to know anything for sure is to observe and validate, but these characteristics can go a long way to help with that. And as I have said, there are other things to look for and there may be other lists, but this is the one that I found most useful from studying these groups and talking to former members of cults.
When a cult or organizational leader has a preponderance of these traits then we can anticipate that at some point those who associate with him will likely suffer physically, emotionally, psychologically, or financially. If these traits sound familiar to leaders, groups, sects, or organizations known to you, then expect those who associate with them to live in despair and to suffer, even if they don’t know yet that they will.”
End of excerpts
~ ~ ~ ~
As I look over the above list of 50 typical traits of the pathological cult leader – it’s sad and unsettling to realize that most of them are a spot-on reflection of wierwille. Another treacherous aspect of pseudo-Christian groups like The Way International is how their trap is already primed for unsuspecting victims who are much more likely to be attracted to traditional belief systems like Christianity – something many people are familiar with – compared to something like Scientology.
That leads me to think that to understand the power of harmful and controlling pseudo-Christian cults we should look more at their methods than their seemingly innocuous statements of belief. The trick is to see how these harmful and controlling cults put their “theories” into practice – by twisting Scripture…misinterpreting Scripture…misapplying Scripture to facilitate…to justify…to excuse their bad behavior and exploit others...and most of all wierwille presented teachings in such a way that it's intimidating to followers who might otherwise question something - but remain quiet fearing the consequences of what might be akin to challenging Moses giving the 10 commandments.
“…VP actually wanted other people to do research even if it proved him wrong. Could be like a campaign slogan; could be true…” Nope – I don’t think so.
As a side note, I’m not really impressed with Walter C.. If you haven’t read it already you should check out Penworks’ book Undertow: My Escape from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International and you’ll find out how Walter caved in to the pressure wierwille employed for Walter to mistranslate a text to suit wierwille’s agenda…Your friend Mike is super busy cleaning windows and
- but it’s an easy read showing the inner workings of TWI and you might find some stuff that resonates with your own experiences. 
trollingposting on Grease Spot that it’s taking him forever to get through it – perhaps you’ll finish it before him -Link to comment
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Nathan_Jr
Mmmmph
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johniam
quote: oh, and almost forgot – speaking of the divinity of Jesus Christ – why don’t you man up and reply to at least a few of my posts on the thread you started in doctrinal forum - The Trinity - asset or liability? – I’ll make it real easy for you – here is my last post T-Bone's post Nov 6th 2022, 9:41 PM on the Trinity, theology, the nature of God . Please respond in a timely manner… unless you prefer to remain the waterboy for a dead cult-leader, providing refreshments for wierwille’s fanbase.
First, you must understand it is easy for me to read seemingly endless posts of slander, if not devoid of substance, and it's easy for me to conclude that enough is enough and I'm not reading any more of this crap. However, I did start that thread, and if you really wanted a response to something I was going to try to accommodate you. But, you want me to respond in a timely manner, yet, it would be impossible to even read those posts in a timely manner. My strategy is simple, like the cliche, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. The word of God, as taught by VP, for the most part, ain't broke. I believe that so called 'cult awareness' is socially acceptable bigotry which does more harm than good. It encourages people to get in panic mode and throw out the baby with the bath water. I refuse to share that with you and your ilk.
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