VPW Loaded with demons, LCM Angry at Gay believer anonymously requested prayer at Business/Professions Conference

[James French]

T-BONER: YOU PAINT ME WITH A BROAD BRUSH LIKE VPW OR LUCIFER CON MARTINDALE!

I HAVE NOT DEMANDED MONEY, TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF ANY PERSON, NOR SEXUALLY VICTIMIZED ANY PERSON WHATSOEVER. I HAVE HELPED PEOPLE AND YOU TRASH ME. THERE IS AN OASIS AROUND MY HOUSE FROM THE 2015 VALLEY FIRE. I PERSONALLY SAW GOD SAVE MOST OF MY TOWN I LIVE IN. GO TAKE A FLYING BLANK. WHAT HAVE YOU DONE BUDDY? JUST FAKE SIT. THATS YOUR CLAIM TO FAME. YOU HAVE YOU HELPED OR HEALED, OR COUNSELED, OR STAYED IN INTENSIVE CARE 24 HOURS A DAY PRAYING AND MINISTERING TO PERSONS AT DEATH'S DOOR AND THEY REVIVED, THANK GOD. HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU DONE THAT, T-BONER?

I JUST BELIEVE IN THE SCRIPTURES AND THE HOLY SPIRIT. YOU CAN GO STICK YOUR HEAD BACKWARDS UP THE CAVITY AND BREATH WHAT YOUR FULL OF, WHICH I DISCERN IS PROBABLY NOT HOLY SPIRIT, BUT UNHOLY SH-T

[James French]

HEY T-BONER: OH YE OF NO FAITH:

I DON'T HAVE TO ANSWER TO YOU, BUT I WILL SAY IN BOLD TYPE;

I STAYED IN THE WAY BECAUSE OF FRIENDS I DIDN'T WANT TO LOOSE, AND TO HEAR PROPHESY ETC. THE LOCAL FELLOWSHIP WAS SWEET AND KIND, AND LOVING. UNLIKE YOU!

I STOPPED TITHING LONG BEFORE I LEFT IN 1987 ALONG WITH EVERYONE ELSE AT THAT TIME. WHY DON'T YOU ATTACK THOSE PEOPLE ALSO? MOST OF THEM PROBABLY "TITHED." MOST OF YOUR CLAIM TO FAME IS YOU FAKED SPEAKING IN TONGUES. THAT MEANS YOU LIED, YOU HAVE AND HAD NO CREDIBILITY. YOU WERE MORE CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT OTHERS THOUGHT OF YOU, THEN SEEKING HELP IN DOING WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS "I THANK GOD I SPEAK IN TONGUES MORE THAN YOU ALL," PAUL ADDRESSING THE WHOLE CHURCH AT CORINTH. YOU ARE A SPIRITUAL CUP-CAKE. AS FAR AS ALL THOSE PLACES YOU WENT TO FOR THE WAY, THAT SHOWS THE HYPOCRACY OF YOU ATTACKING ME, YOU ACTED 1000 TIMES MORE THAN ME AS A "WAY BRAIN" THAN I EVER WAS. I WAS NOT HAPPY WITH THE WAY, AND REVOLTED IN MANY WAYS WHILE STILL MANTAINING FRIENDS THAT I STILL HAVE WHO ALSO LEFT THE WAY WHEN I DID. WILL YOU ATTACK THEM ALSO, T-BONER? I CAN DISH OUT MORE THAN YOU CAN TAKE IF YOU CONTINUE TO TRASH ME?

YOU HAVE SOME KIND OF BONE TO PICK WITH ME, WITHOUT REASON; ATTACKING MY CREDIBILITY AND CHARACTER. YOU KNOW WHERE YOU CAN STICK IT. WHAT HAVE YOU DONE? I HAVE RISKED MY LIFE AND BEEN ATTACKED BOTH SPIRITUALLY AND PHYSICALLY MANY TIMES.

LAST APRIL 14 2021 A CAR CAME 1/2 INCH FROM MY KNEES AND MY FEET WERE UNDER THE HOOD OF THE CAR. I THOUGHT IT WAS A FRIEND APPROACHING, MISTAKEN IDENTITY. GOD STOPPED THE CAR, AS IT HAD SPED UP ALL OF A SUDDEN AND I HAD NO TIME TO MOVE. THE SUN WAS ON THE WINDSHIELD SO I COULD NOT SEE THE PERSON. THE BEST DRIVER IN THE WORLD CANNOT STOP 1/2 INCH FROM A PERSON. ELECTRICAL WORKERS WERE TRIMMING TREES AND HAD BLOCKED THE LEFT LANE. THE CREW SAW THE WHOLE THING, THE CREW CHIEF WAS ASTOUNDED AS I WAS, AS HE SAID; I THOUGHT YOU KNEW EACH OTHER."

WE WERE ALL ASTOUNDED! I SO MUCH SO THAT NO ONE GOT THE LICENSE PLATE #. GOT COVERED FOR MY MISTAKEN IDENTITY AND A MANIAC DRIVER. IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE ME, THEN YOU CAN ARGUE WITH GOD AND ANSWER TO HIM, T-BONER! GOD GETS THE GLORY. I DIDN''T DO A THING BUT WATCH IN AWE! GOD SAVED ME FROM EITHER DEATH OR VERY SERIOUS INJURIES. I AM SPEAKING THE TRUTH HERE. YOU ARE DESPICABLE LIKE LCM WHO YOU REMIND ME OF. THE ONLY THING YOU CAN MANIFEST IS A PIMPLE; T-BONER!

Edited March 2, 2022 by James French

[James French]

Dear Twinky:

Great story. Thanks for your supporting what I said. Now, if T-bone is going to be consistent, he needs to attack you about this story and claim that you are a Way supporter as he does to me. I dislike him for cause. I like you for cause also.

God bless you!

[James French]

HEY T=BONER;

IF YOUR GOING TO BE CONSISTENT, THEN YOU NEED TO ATTACK TWINKY FOR HER STORY ABOVE ABOUT THE MAN WHO WALKED FOR THE FIRST TIME IN A LONG TIME ALSO AS YOU ATTACK ME FOR MY TESTIMONIALS AND EXPERIENCE. OTHERWISE, SHUT YOUR MOUTH PER SE (BAD WRITING IN OTHER WORDS). IF YOU LEAVE ME ALONE, I LEAVE YOU ALONE? WHY NOT AGREE TO DISAGREE AND NOT POST REGARDING EACH OTHERS POSTINGS. THAT WAY I DON'T HAVE TO WASTE TIME ON YOU, AND VISA VERSA.

 

[Rocky]

1 hour ago, James French said:

T-BONER: YOU PAINT ME WITH A BROAD BRUSH LIKE VPW OR LUCIFER CON MARTINDALE!

I HAVE NOT DEMANDED MONEY, TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF ANY PERSON, NOR SEXUALLY VICTIMIZED ANY PERSON WHATSOEVER. I HAVE HELPED PEOPLE AND YOU TRASH ME. THERE IS AN OASIS AROUND MY HOUSE FROM THE 2015 VALLEY FIRE. I PERSONALLY SAW GOD SAVE MOST OF MY TOWN I LIVE IN. GO TAKE A FLYING BLANK. WHAT HAVE YOU DONE BUDDY? JUST FAKE SIT. THATS YOUR CLAIM TO FAME. YOU HAVE YOU HELPED OR HEALED, OR COUNSELED, OR STAYED IN INTENSIVE CARE 24 HOURS A DAY PRAYING AND MINISTERING TO PERSONS AT DEATH'S DOOR AND THEY REVIVED, THANK GOD. HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU DONE THAT, T-BONER?

I JUST BELIEVE IN THE SCRIPTURES AND THE HOLY SPIRIT. YOU CAN GO STICK YOUR HEAD BACKWARDS UP THE CAVITY AND BREATH WHAT YOUR FULL OF, WHICH I DISCERN IS PROBABLY NOT HOLY SPIRIT, BUT UNHOLY SH-T

All caps? Seems to say a good deal about your perspective that you may have wanted to get people to actually read your message in order to grasp your meaning in a way that might get them to give serious consideration. "T-BONER?" Oh please... 

Edited March 2, 2022 by Rocky

[Rocky]

12 minutes ago, James French said:

Dear Twinky:

Great story. Thanks for your supporting what I said. Now, if T-bone is going to be consistent, he needs to attack you about this story and claim that you are a Way supporter as he does to me. I dislike him for cause. I like you for cause also.

God bless you!

Let me restate it for you... "I believe T-bone hasn't been consistent and I don't appreciate it." Also, who cares who you like and who you don't like or whether you feel you have justification for your opinions.

[James French]

I never liked the phrase "All nine all the time." That is ridiculous. Human beings cannot do anything all the time but inhaling and exhaling. T-BONER IS FULL OF ASSUMPTIONS,  MAKING A BLANK OUT OF HIMSELF. HE ASSUMES I TITHED WITH THE WAY A LOT, WHICH I SELDOM DID, MOSTLY IN THE EARLY YEARS.

HE ASSUMES I AM WAY BRAINED, HE ASSUMES I AM A COUNTERFEIT BELIEVER AND A SHOW BOAT TYPE? NO, I JUST LIKE TO PRAISE GOD FOR ALL THE GREAT THINGS HE HAS DONE AND TELL PEOPLE ABOUT IT. HOPEFULLY SOMEONE WILL LEARN SOMETHING USEFUL AND BELIEVE GOD ALSO? WE CAN ONLY LEARN UNBELIEF AND FAKING SIT FROM T-BONER?

Edited March 2, 2022 by James French

[Rocky]

Just now, James French said:

I never liked the phrase "All nine all the time." That is ridiculous. Human beings cannot do anything all the time but inhaling and exhalling. T-BONER IS FULL OF foot-UMPTIONS,  MAKING AS foot OUT OF HIMSELF. HE foot-UMES I TITHED WITH THE WAY A LOT, WHICH I SELDOM DID, MOSTLY IN THE EARLY YEARS.

HE foot-UMES I AM WAY BRAINED, HE foot-UMES I AM A COUNTERFEIT BELIEVER AND A SHOW BOAT TYPE? NO, I JUST LIKE TO PRAISE GOD FOR ALL THE GREAT THINGS HE HAS DONE AND TELL PEOPLE ABOUT IT.

Are you sure you are able to step inside his mind?

Btw, it's obvious that you like to do other than just "to praise God for all the great things He has done and tell people about it." Either that or you do things contrary to that declaration anyway. 

[Bolshevik]

This is a spiritual anger . . .  He's not yelling he's teaching.  . . . Save the person now, love them later . . . It's just up to the rest of us to renew our minds

 

*rocks gently back and forth*

[T-Bone]

Hi James French,
In case you misread my Grease Spot name – it is T-Bone   NOT    T-BONER   …if you deliberately misspelled it in order to distort my name for the purpose of insulting or ridiculing me then I recommend you review Grease Spot’s Purpose, Mission and Rules    here  

.
Furthermore, I find it odd and inappropriate that you say I paint you “WITH A BROAD BRUSH LIKE VPW OR LUCIFER CON MARTINDALE!”  when in your earlier posts you describe wierwille in very general and inflammatory terms (“loaded with demons”) and so to with “Lucifer Con Martindale” – geez Louise “Lucifer” ? Come on, man! Painting with a broad brush means without mentioning evidence, specific details and without paying attention to individual variations. 

As a matter of fact, the content of my VERY FIRST POST on this thread provided alternate criterion for judging cult-leaders -- by listing some biblical and psychological criterion for determining the level of demonic influence –  here 

The more you go on about your powers of discernment the less I believe in your ability to judge well. As much as I’ve criticized wierwille and martindale I’d never go so far as to say they’re loaded with demons or born of the wrong seed. As I’ve mentioned previously wierwille’s teaching on wrong seed is erroneous, illogical and there is no biblical support for it. 

Which leaves your “loaded with demons” accusation as a shot in the dark – which as far as I’m concerned is mere speculation…also bad form for you to fly off the handle like that -- – your protesting so much is a tip off you didn’t anticipate that anyone would balk at your claim…FYI…when someone objects so fervently to something – I tend to think the opposite may be true…sorry but some of what you said comes across as insincere overacting…maybe if we both dial back the rhetoric and animosity by asking for more clarification we might get somewhere – wherever that “somewhere” is. 

 

 

what I think the “spiritual status” of wierwille and martindale MIGHT have been when I was involved in TWI and interacted with them – leans toward the first three levels of demonic influence from   Baker Encyclopedia of Psychology and Counseling    that I referenced in my first post – there was enough circumstantial and direct evidence as well as symptoms to indicate those first three levels of demonic influence MAY have been the cause. I am not aware of any circumstantial or direct evidence or symptoms that would indicate either cult-leader had the fourth or most direct level of demonic influence - which is  demonic possession. In my opinion that’s a pretty harsh accusation to make.

~ ~ ~ ~ 
I don’t feel compelled nor do I see the need to get in a pi$$ing contest with you. You can toot your own horn all you want – it’s doubtful if all that hype will make many ex-TWI folks buy into regurgitated wierwille ideology…I mean it’s the same old song and dance and hissy fits that wierwille pulled to manipulate people to disregard their cognitive skills and intuition…You can go on if you want to here – but let’s be clear – as I said before – I will call out the BS – I’m not trashing YOU – I’m merely criticizing a dubious idea you forwarded…it's like you're trying to sell us something...too much hard sell...if you can’t take the heat – you may want to stay out of the kitchen. 

~ ~ ~ ~ 
If you would have given more details on how you were backing down on your support and involvement with TWI because of your discernment – your narrative may have come across as more genuine and a natural development over those 8 years…keep in mind Grease Spot Café is somewhat like a halfway house cyberplace for helping former followers of a harmful and controlling cult adjust to life in a general society…To be honest – I think if you would have started this thread with the your 2nd point - LCM Angry at a Gay believer anonymously requesting prayer at the Business/Professions Conference it probably would have resonated with more folks – because  divisive, berating and persecuting incidents like that is something many of us are very familiar with…

…and from that as well as all the other acts of caring and compassion that you have mentioned in your recent posts leads me to think you are a good person – and that’s unlike the standard TWI-response of blaming the victim for their lack of believing…as I said before I’m not going to get into a pi$$ing contest with you…if you actually read my previous posts to Mark about manifestations - it should be obvious I believe what the Bible says about the manifestations and about other spiritual abilities – I just don’t believe in them in the way wierwille taught them…

 

…feel free to harp on me about faking SIT…it’s already been discussed how the power of self-deception held sway in TWI…and it’s a tough syndrome to deal with…if you’re an expert on SIT  – why don’t you start a thread on SIT… I don’t mind playing the devil’s advocate – we’ve had some good discussions on that…maybe this time around we can get some of you SIT fans to submit a recording of your speaking in tongues to a linguistic expert for analysis. 

~ ~ ~ ~ 

…one thing that always frustrated me in TWI – was when people did NOT receive some miracle…healing…deliverance from whatever -  and the cult-leader or some hot dog sycophant supposedly “ministering” to them doesn’t do squat! And these folks get dropped like a hot potato…like the incident I gave earlier of the lady with the misshapen foot…yeah - people can talk a tough game – I have never seen wierwille, martindale or any other top leadership “operate” the revelation or power manifestations…their ideology promises so much but delivers so little…

…and you know who gets left holding the bag? People like me – who care about the believers I fellowship with – so we comfort and encourage them to hang in there anyway…besides the typical disappointments, sadness, and displeasure caused by the nonfulfillment of the hopes and expectations people had from the promises of PFAL – I WAS ALSO THERE FOR THE REALLY TOUGH SITUATIONS – to comfort, console, pray, minister, counsel…with believers dying of cancer or suffering from some other illness or tragic accident…I’ve done fund-raisers, funeral services and memorials – not just because it came with the territory of my responsibilities but more importantly it’s what shepherds do when reality deals some tough blows to the flock - like illness, hardship, tragedy and death…and I was there for the death, sickness, hardships and tragedies of relatives, friends and work associates who had nothing to do with TWI – because I’m a human being too – and I’m still there for folks in tough situations – regardless of belief systems…I have this running joke with several former co-workers “we’ve got to stop meeting like this” at funerals where someone in their family has passed away.

…it’s pointless to try and guilt me into thinking you’re so spiritual because somebody “revived” and you’re wanting to hear if I can top that. Well great, I’m happy for you and that person and everyone related to that incident…how are you when there’s no positive outcome? How are you when situations drag on and on indefinitely, and they reach out for help because this isn’t supposed to be happening to a true believer.

~ ~ ~ ~  
Your ALL CAPS and foul-mouth-ish subtleties are uncalled for. Did it ever occur to you that this isn’t TWI-ville 2.0 and some folks are going to notice inconsistencies in your narrative – like I did with you detecting loads of demons in THE cult-leader but doing nothing about it? Like I said you should have just gone with the martindale homo-purge thing – now your narrative there seems genuine – you called headquarters, you were concerned you took action. That kind of stuff is great – relatable. It doesn’t matter if one believes in the 9 manifestations like you do or not…it doesn’t matter what one’s position is on homosexuality…your incident was great because it clearly showed the hypocrisy and authoritarianism of a supposedly Christian leader. 
~ ~ ~ ~ 
I’ll try to be less of an a$$hole to you…but you don’t have to feel like you should reciprocate – you can still call me T-BONER  if that turns you on and you can still TALK TO ME IN ALL CAPS…I’ve got a thick-skin anyway – comes from years of spiritual abuse by pontificating, berating harmful and controlling cult-leaders…so I’ll try not to respond in kind. 

…and just so you know – I really enjoy the debates and critical analysis on Grease Spot – I don’t take it personal and I don’t make it personal.

Anyway…that’s all I’ve got for now…hope you have a good evening… 

 

Edited March 2, 2022 by T-Bone
many-infestations? no - only 9

[Rocky]

16 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

The more you go on about your powers of discernment the less I believe in your ability to judge well.

Hey T-Bone(r) LOL... I realize this quote of yours may be a figure of speech. I doubt you believed from the first post he made that his judgment had much merit.   

[T-Bone]

5 hours ago, James French said:

HEY T=BONER;

IF YOUR GOING TO BE CONSISTENT, THEN YOU NEED TO ATTACK TWINKY FOR HER STORY ABOVE ABOUT THE MAN WHO WALKED FOR THE FIRST TIME IN A LONG TIME ALSO AS YOU ATTACK ME FOR MY TESTIMONIALS AND EXPERIENCE. OTHERWISE, SHUT YOUR MOUTH PER SE (BAD WRITING IN OTHER WORDS). IF YOU LEAVE ME ALONE, I LEAVE YOU ALONE? WHY NOT AGREE TO DISAGREE AND NOT POST REGARDING EACH OTHERS POSTINGS. THAT WAY I DON'T HAVE TO WASTE TIME ON YOU, AND VISA VERSA.

 

Oh yeah - I forgot to address this hissy fit over an imaginary wrong…I never called into question any of the other incidents you brought up - other than your “discernment” of wierwille being loaded with demons.

 

I see no problem In anything you or Twinky shared that involved witnesses - verifiable details. Maybe you’re confusing me with someone else who gave you a hard time about something.

 

I’m all for the agree to disagree thing - and do bear in mind you started your thread in the DOCTRINAL forum.

yeah DOCTRINAL- you know a set of beliefs …Bible stuff…Scripture…chapter and verse…hermeneutics - methods of interpretation…theology…that’s why SEVERAL TIMES now I’ve said I believe in the manifestations and spiritual abilities - but not in the way wierwille taught them…and fyi - if you think PFAL is the gold standard of doctrinal discussions you are in the minority on grease spot.

 

try being a little more tolerant of people who don’t follow your group - check out Luke 9: 49 & 50

John answered, “Master, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he does not follow with us.”

But Jesus said to him, “Do not stop him, for the one who is not against you is for you.”

 

Edited March 2, 2022 by T-Bone
Revision

[James French]

I frankly do not like some of the attitudes here, from especially T-bone, but also Bolshevik. You attacked me in first post. I have not been here since 2004. What a welcoming committee. When I was last here in 2004 no one was nasty, except one guy who did something very bad, he said something about a pipe bomb associated with me as though I was a terrorist which I am not. That is dangerous talk, not just not liking someone. That can get you investigated by the government and put on the no fly list or worse. The government can arrest people under the Patriot Act etc. and hold them without trial, without evidence indefinitely, and even taken to Gitmo.

That is why I left this site. Now I come back and I get this kind of treatment. I am considering never coming back here? Twinky was very nice here. You guys are not...

You attacked me personally, as though I am a liar, an idiot or whatever. I have seen great miracles. Twinky believed me and told her own story similar to mine about a person walking for the first time in years. Why didn't you attack her also, with very similar story of deliverance. I do not make up stories or BS. What I state actually happened. Then you want an explanation, how does one explain how God empowers miracles. If you people who doubt everything, automatically attack anyone by saying they follow Wierwille etc., it is ridiculous. Any person would be ....ed off at the attitude by you guys. I got angry and called you T-boner because your attitude was terrible. I did not expect this kind of welcome. Well, thank for for dumping on me...it reminds me of the bad things about the Way, and brought back terrible feelings. There is no compassion or love in your asinine attitudes. Rocky settled down a bit, unlike you two. But you T-bone are the worst here.

Your welcome to greasespot was like a welcome from Lucifer Con Martindale, frankly.

Believers in Christ according to scriptures have available the power of God by Faith, and you say NO?, at least as far as I am concerned. I am thankful to God for the privilege of seeing the great things God has done. It is not my power, but the power of God that I and others have seen. I dislike the bad things that The Way did to people. But your welcoming committee and attitude and attacks made me feel llike LCM treatment etc.

That is my take on it, go ahead, your going to continue probably to make me feel like not coming back here, except for Twinky, who was nice, I got a rotten welcome here, like practically an FU know what? That is how it feels. It also reminded me of grade school bullies who made fun of me and my handicap. I was born 2 months premature, to which 99% of babies born at that stage die. I almost died countless times. My mother prayed to God and my survival was the first miracle in my life. Excess oxygen of 40% or over in an oxygen tent blinded my left eye and caused severe myopia in my right eye and nystagmus, eye movement that effects visual acuity, to which the doctors said I would never drive a car. I never took driver's ed in high school. My life changed when I applied principles from the Word I learned in the Way, and my eyesight improved by both my efforts and believing for healing as well as a good doctor who prescribed a contact lens and visual therapy instead of the Coke Bottle glasses to which I was oppressed by bullies as a child for, to the point I went from a bicycle, to a moped, to a motorcycle and finally I had a motorcycle and class 4 car license.  Are you two proud of yourselves. I usually don't share these personal matters, but perhaps there is a small possibility that you may reconsider your attacks on me and the effect it has on me, right now, and learn something. I hate the word handicapped, as well as disabled, there is no good word for it.

It brings back painful memories of the Bullies and their mean spirited manners and "treatment." I don't think you two could heal anyone or help anyone unless you change your attitude? Many people have been assisted by me as I have acted as a pastor, Bible researcher and evangelist etc. for decades, not through any auspices of the Way. That is fact, not fiction, not bragging. Done all without pay, benefits or salary part-time. Go ahead, attack me....I expect. What will you say now?

By the Way, despite my history of vision problems, I am an artist, and musician, drums. And I earned a BA in Art with a concentration in printmaking. I am an expert on original prints, an art restorer and art conservator and have restored, framed and saved many hundreds of works of art on paper, documents and oil and water color paintings, including Rembrandt, Toulouse Lautrec, and a George Washington Letter and many more. I have presented many art shows of works of art from the 16th to the 21st centuries as well as I was represented by two art galleries in the San Francisco Bay Area as an artist. In addition I played drums with other musicians in local performances in The Way , as well as after leaving The Way I continued to play music with other believers and also played music in a church band without pay. I have dedicated my life to applying God's Word into culture in many aspects. It has cost me a lot of financial sacrifices; fact. I have studied law, history, Satanism and the New World Order and their goals and methods, as well as general and specific Bible research into many topics. These are facts, not bragging. I have spent a lot of time doing so over the decades, again without pay. I have worked part-time doing janitorial work to support myself and to keep the doors open to continue to preserve art, help people with the Word and to continue to research, play music and support all these endeavors which has cost me a lot of money over the many decades, Fact. I have made lots of personal sacrifices to continue in these endeavors, which I believe are important.

I dislike this site, it reminds me of The Way Ministry, and brings back terrible memories to me and its a bummer. I will most likely be leaving this site for good. Congratulations; you have succeeded in sending me packing, Like LCM did to John Schoenhiet for merely writing a paper on Adultery. I merely gave testimony of what God empowered and what I experienced and witnessed. You could not accept my testimony. It was the truth, it really happened as I said. No bragging, just what happened.

James French, minister of the Gospel

Edited March 2, 2022 by James French

[Bolshevik]

We do have very distasteful opinions of LCM in common.

However, questioning claims of dematerialization has nothing to do with an attitude problem.

You made an outlandish claim.  You can type nonstop about nothing related to the topic and set empathy traps, but you're only going to drive yourself nuts.

 

[James French]

T-Bone: To me, I think you treated me and my testimony as though it was not true, and that I am a liar, a braggart, a person who takes advantage of and victimizes others.  You assumed I think like Wierwille. You assumed I act and think like LCM, you assumed I have bad motives and follow PFAL. You assumed my discerning of spirits was wrong. You presented yourself initially as a person that faked (lied) that they spoke in tongues in PFAL class. You assumed everything negative. You did not consider the results; A person walked for the first time in 7 years and other believers were involved. You failed to consider the situation I presented of my friend who had been raped and subsequent problem that he asked for prayer. You assumed the worst in everything I presented...

Edited March 2, 2022 by James French

[T-Bone]

Hi James French,

Thanks for your very thoughtful reply. Now this is a better way to improve communication – seeking clarification on what MAY be another person’s assumption…I think we’re both guilty of that – and it’s usually easier and seems more efficient to dialog in cyberspace when we hold onto some assumptions – like a communication template or shorthand – rather than the old fashioned way of being face to face and we might interrupt each other mid-sentence “…wait – do you mean this?” or “no – I did not say that”…Now, onto the business of clarification.

I never intended to treat you and your testimony as though it were not true – nor did I assume you are a liar, or a person who takes advantage of and victimizes others. I’m sorry if I gave you that impression. I NEVER DOUBTED that you actually had any of the experiences that you posted. And the only two items I called into question were in your first and second post – where you claimed you discerned wierwille was loaded with demons and the other was insinuating martindale is born of the wrong seed or the devil incarnate and launching into a conspiracy theory to blacklist a lot of other groups that do not subscribe to your beliefs – you said : “The seed talker may have been a seed planted by the enemy? After all, practically all denominations and non-denominations have been infiltrated by the Jesuits and other "seed boys and girls." I’ve briefly handle that erroneous doctrine of wrong seed in a previous post  > here .

I was not assuming YOU thought and acted like wierwille or martindale – I was challenging your proposition which is evidently based on what wierwille and martindale taught – unless you’re trying to say you figured out all by yourself there’s a conspiracy of wrong-seeders afoot – of course, I’m not aware of other “ministries” or any reputable Bible scholars who are big proponents of wrong-seeders – but I’ll give a listen if you want to walk me through your thought process and Scripture references to arrive at such an idea. 

 

But back to discerning wierwille was “loaded with demons”. I actually had two other lines of thinking while I was drafting my first post challenging you on that. And if it’s any consolation to you – what I am about to say actually gives credence to your experience as well as all the other incidents you’ve mentioned.

The first idea is really a question. What if that was intuition when you sensed…felt…discerned wierwille was loaded with demons? What if God WAS telling you DIRECTLY that wierwille was under demonic influence but you second-guessed how God works? Maybe He didn’t mean to give you the idea he was loaded with demons – aka POSSESSED – maybe He was trying to tell you wierwille was under some heavy demonic influence…I have no doubt He might very well have been trying to do that…Sorry I got on you for not issuing an all-points-bulletin to believers – but I tend to liken your experience to the start of my own TWI-exit  - my intuition – feeling there was some suspicious things wierwille said in “The Way: Living in Love” book. That inspired me to a take a long investigative journey using cognitive skills and intuition to figure out I was in a cult of personality. 

My other line of thought is also a question. As devoted followers of The Way International were we more prone to limit God by dutifully accepting PFAL protocols – i.e. “the teacher’s”…”the man of god’s” official procedure or system of rules governing affairs of God, the world, the church, the self? 

This might be some fun stuff to think about and discuss. I could relate to all your incidents if I soften up the boundaries of both our individual mindsets. I’ve been around people before that have given me the creeps. Even professionally in the security industry I have occasionally followed up on a gut feeling and thwarted a few attempted burglaries and exposed some crooked employees trying to socially engineer their way into gaining access to something. 

TWI gave intuition a bad rap.” You can’t go by feelings. That’s not how God works…No – the only way God can communicate something to you is if you have holy spirit and know how to operate all nine manifestations”.  

Not true! What if – contrary to what wierwille taught – God can do anything He wants to do and communicate anything He wants to and communicate it to whoever he wants to. Could He work with our intuition? I don’t see why not!

I believe our intuition should be integral even with our more analytical study of the Scriptures...But it’s important to realize that it’s not perfect and it can be misinterpreted or even compromised by a seared conscience – certain passages like   Proverbs 16:25    and    Judges 21:25   will attest to that – we find that one’s feelings can be wrong, and not all inner leanings should be heeded. Because of our sin nature, we are often prone to error and poor judgment. If relying only upon our own powers of discernment, we can be led astray.

I believe people are created in God’s image and as such we reflect some unique characteristics of our Creator – like a moral compass, the ability to judge what is right from wrong and act accordingly. At times we may acquire knowledge without obvious deliberation. Perhaps that is what Ephesians 1:17 is talking about - “that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him,  having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you…” 

And people are not robots.  We have freedom of will and some passages seem to suggest the more we align ourselves with the sentiment and moral demands of the Bible – the more reliable our instincts become – Psalm 37:23…and the Bible does seem to suggest that when we seek wisdom as our highest priority, our intuition can very well be a safeguard against tragic mistakes Proverbs 2: 3; Ecclesiastes 7:12 ; Psalm 37:23 ; Psalm 111:10   , and   James 1:5  . And we should also remember the words of Jesus Christ in  John 7:17    “Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.”   I believe there’s something to this verse that might have to do with how our intuition and God may work together – in that metaphysical truth is self-authenticating through the teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit – perhaps that is also implied in passages like   John 16:13   and I John 2:27   .

And do miracles, signs and wonders…divine intervention have to line up with wierwille’s “to receive anything from God checklist “? Of course not…and we certainly should not presume we can force God’s hand if we go through the motions suggested by wierwille…I was at a leadership conference in Camp Gunnison – Twig, Branch and Area coordinators were there – some were TWI-ordained clergy. They were conducting a healing service – and we all paired up with someone – and we then ministered to each other. Nothing spectacular to report so far – I could hear a lady praying for someone’s headache…another one was offering prayer for the other person’s financial situation…on and on a subdued drone of voices…then one guy’s voice got louder and louder – “… in the name of Jesus Christ stand up!” This got awkward…he’s praying over this guy in a wheel chair – and I could see the guy in the wheel chair leaning forward trying to push himself up onto his legs – but his upper legs are not doing anything…back and forth with the lean…failure of upper legs…the one ministering raising his voice louder and louder…I think it was one of the most dramatic buzzkill moments for many of us at the conference…the healing service petered out after that. No one formally addressed the failure – to make excuses or berate anyone’s unbelief. Nothing!

Last thing – and then I’ll shut up for now…in reference to my faking SIT or that you assume I think you lied…I mentioned earlier about self-deception being rampant in TWI…here’s another fascinating idea: wierwille may have had the best of intentions and felt justified in everything he did…his motives could have been right. Perhaps he was so deluded it never occurred to him that he was doing anything wrong. In June of last year, I started a thread  on self-deception  - click here
 

Maybe it will give you some food for thought. In 1974, In session 12 , I never deliberately thought I’m going to fake SIT - in following wierwille’s instructions – I tried to link it to an experience I was familiar with – my high school days of making up languages…Looking back on it now – it was a learned behaviorism – but I told myself this is the real deal. I’m not calling into question other people’s experience of SIT. But in reevaluating the biblical data and wierwille’s arguments for SIT being such a big deal compels me to bring up the necessity of real Bible study and using our cognitive skills and intuition – we’re less likely to get caught up in someone’s delusions of grandeur or succumb to self-deception.

Some interesting articles on speaking in tongues – can it be genuine and/or can it be a learned behavior…depends on the viewpoint and the criteria for a real language:

Ezine Articles - Tongues As a Learned Behavior

The Spirit Searches – what is speaking in tongues

Bible.org - speaking in tongues

Wikipedia - speaking in tongues

VIDEO - Harvard’s Steven Pinker: how we speak reveals what we think

Christianity Today  - speaking in tongues - is it real? – what does it mean?

 

I don't doubt your experiences - but what I'm saying is perhaps there's more behind the scenes - than what you think is happening based on TWI's narrowminded template of theology.

I don’t believe there is an unavoidable rule that demands our narrative of spiritual experiences MUST fit into a wierwille/PFAL/The Advanced Class format or that our theories of how God works MUST fit inside the “authorized” wierwille/PFAL/The Advanced Class theological box.

In my opinion, wierwille had a way of trivializing God, Jesus Christ, and The Holy Spirit into a marketing strategy – that was cloaked in seemingly godly respect and reverence for such transcendent beings but in practice it was a pseudo-Christianity and wrapped up inside it was a manageable god. How convenient. 

 

Edited March 2, 2022 by T-Bone
once again he edits

[Rocky]

7 hours ago, James French said:

I frankly do not like some of the attitudes here, from especially T-bone, but also Bolshevik.

 

7 hours ago, James French said:

You attacked me personally, as though I am a liar, an idiot or whatever.

My impression of this is you take it far too personally when people disagree with you. Why do you even care what anyone believes about you?

The main question you perhaps should be concerned about is to what extent do YOU believe you might be "a liar, an idiot or whatever." IOW, you've put your insecurity on display.

Good luck in your life Mr French, I wish you well. But validation here on GSC isn't necessarily something that's going to help you become more confident in your beliefs. 

[James French]

Mr. T-bone:

A. Yes, I think we both assumed things. Also I think each person's mind can not only misconstrue things the other person is stating, feeling etc., but also trigger emotions in both himself and conversely on the other party in the communication. When you multiply this with all the participants such as here in this forum; you have a pot that is easily stirred and can boil over as buzz words stimulate certain responses or feelings in individuals. One thing that will not bother on person may open up woulds and cause a person to assume or misconstrue motives, intent etc.  

B. Regarding intuition, the workings of the holy spirit (the gift of God); the holy spirit functions in believers in many ways not only in manifestations, but also just by revelation manifestations of word of knowledge, wisdom and discerning of spirits. God communicates to individuals in different ways, but even in a single individual in many ways, including myself. Revelation itself can come in so many ways and combinations from everything from still small voice, to pictures, videos, feelings, intuition-like, pains in ministering to someone to communicate where the trouble is etc. These various revelations can mimic the five senses or be more intellectual-like. God can communicate how he determines through the holy spirit. We can see in scriptures many varied ways God communicates. God has principles, but we cannot put God in a box, he is too big for that. What works for one person may not work in another.

C. All manifestations of holy spirit can be counterfeited. We also have the problems of not only listening etc. for God's communication, but also interpreting or confusing our body, soul and spirit and which is communicating, as spiritual feelings can and often do mimic physical stimuli; senses. Physical senses can also be misconstrued as "spiritual." Also the spiritual and physical stimuli may confirm and agree to a certain conclusion or conflict or be different. Ultimately, we should strive towards the closest relationship with God through the the spirit, the mind and cooperate in all manner of ways and do our best to constrain the bad aspects of the flesh. 

Confirmation request is a good thing to do with God.

Regarding Seed of The Serpent etc.; I will just say, I have extensive research and experience in that area and personal knowledge and experience involving my own family., as well as others. Genesis 3:15 is significant. I have extensive materials and evidence in this area as well as personal experience that I cannot state publicly for certain reasons. I will just say, VPW and LCM were asking the right questions, but because of their own sin and lack of both research and knowledge and wisdom from above and lack of experience and understanding that they came to false conclusions. Unfortunately this has caused people to completely dismiss totally any research or inquiry into this neglected and important area of research and understanding. I have so much evidence and sources on this subject, as I have spent many years exploring this area (as well as many other subjects) that brought death to mankind and has conferred the dominion of the earth from man to Lucifer, the god of this world until he be taken out of the way into the Lake of Fire for eternity which appears to be very soon in coming to pass.

One must be careful about throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

D. Psychology; Scientific Methodology etc. You seem to rely extensively on scientific methodology, theory and knowledge. There is a place for such, but the spiritual truths certainly are absolutely more true then the soon to be world that will be melted with fervent heat, Even though many scientists are also believers, official science does not recognize the spiritual and scientific evidence is limited to that of the physical. Unfortunately because of the Dark side, much of the science has been used for wicked devices and purposes including mind control which I referred to in earlier post.The Dark side also has muddied the waters much with counterfeit and the demonic in all cultures and times since the beginning. The various mental diseases and symptoms comply with the characteristics and nature of specific demons, which I believe are cause of much of the mental illnesses in humans. Organic causes are also a problem, especially since the food, air, water, materials, vaccinations and even test swabs are loaded with poisonous and dangerous chemicals produced by the huge corporations. The elite so called globalists,, Luciferians or whatever you want to call them, they do exist and do have a dark agenda.

E. I knew as a child that the JFK assassination official conclusions were completely false. I saw Oswald shot live on TV and lived through that period as well as many other traumatic times such as the Cold War, Vietnam, 911, The Gulf Wars etc. I learned about the globalists etc. in 1984 when I read None Dare Call It Conspiracy by Gary Allen, That started a life-long quest of research into that area as well as the Kennedy assasinations etc. Satanism, Luciferianism, Sigil Magic; we are all carrying Federal Reserve Notes including the $1.00 bill with the symbol of Lucifer in the "All Seeing Eye" on the back of the bill. Thus, as symbolic images can carry demons, we are all potentially carrying demons around in our back pockets or purses. The wicked believe in and practice these type and other of "dark arts."

I have done extensive research into history and still do, with a spiritual perspective and have studied law extensively and its origins and specifics and its corruptions, as well as Wars, multitude of conspiracies and events. The CIA coined the term 'Conspiracy Theory" to counter the JFK assassination researchers. I have 10 books on the JFK assassination alone. There are definitely conspiracies both great and small. To say there are not is to defy history, logic, human nature and Satan himself, who is the master of and instigator of evil conspiracies. Theory alone is not bad, there are many theories including the scientific ones. There are a multitude of theories, some good, some half true and some bad, false, or ridiculous and or stupid; such as "all the evil of the world is caused by Micky Mouse, not Lucifer, as Micky is the true God of this world!" "Be careful in watching Micky Mouse on TV and in Movie houses or anywhere for that matter, you could become possessed. Now I have ended in comedy which I find very important and healing and stress reducing.

One last thing, possessed by Devil spirits is not favored now by many Christian researchers, because it implies total ownership. Jesus etc. casting out spirits caused people to be completely delivered. I believe as many do now that demonization is a better term. I believe that those who have crossed the line of separation to make Lucifer (or whatever name is used; Baal, Satan, etc.) as their god, are then owned (possessed) by Lucifer aka whatever...). Paul referred to a wicked person in the Book of Acts as a child of the Devil and therefore it is Biblical, as well as the old Testament various deities names and their followers; worshipers.

 

James French,

minister of The Gospel

 

 

 

Edited March 2, 2022 by James French

[James French]

Regarding my SIT. I have diverse tongues; and I do not understand modern French or Archaic French. My long time friend since 8th grade lead me into the Way and also broke the so called rules by leading me into tongues the night before the last seesion of PFAL as I was concerned if I could do it. I did it fine and no problem in the class. He also many years later heard me SIT and he recognized it as old French, as he knows French and his mother is from Brussels. I never studied French other than some French Art terms because I am an artist and art conservator/restorer.

I do recognize some tongues I do as guttural, African like, or chinese or some kind of Asian languages. I have done many I don't and can't even guess what they are? I think that diversity of tongues has to do with faith, desire and of course God's business as to what is uttered, as the spirit gives the utterance. This is no counterfeit. If you think so, that is your problem.

Edited March 2, 2022 by James French

[waysider]

1 hour ago, James French said:

vaccinations and even test swabs are loaded with poisonous and dangerous chemicals

Would it offend you if I asked for evidence?

[Rocky]

3 hours ago, James French said:

A. Yes, I think we both assumed things. Also I think each person's mind can not only misconstrue things the other person is stating, feeling etc., but also trigger emotions in both himself and conversely on the other party in the communication. When you multiply this with all the participants such as here in this forum; you have a pot that is easily stirred and can boil over as buzz words stimulate certain responses or feelings in individuals. One thing that will not bother on person may open up wounds and cause a person to assume or misconstrue motives, intent etc.  

I can agree with that. 

[T-Bone]

5 hours ago, James French said:

Mr. T-bone:

A. Yes, I think we both assumed things. Also I think each person's mind can not only misconstrue things the other person is stating, feeling etc., but also trigger emotions in both himself and conversely on the other party in the communication. When you multiply this with all the participants such as here in this forum; you have a pot that is easily stirred and can boil over as buzz words stimulate certain responses or feelings in individuals. One thing that will not bother on person may open up woulds and cause a person to assume or misconstrue motives, intent etc.  

B. Regarding intuition, the workings of the holy spirit (the gift of God); the holy spirit functions in believers in many ways not only in manifestations, but also just by revelation manifestations of word of knowledge, wisdom and discerning of spirits. God communicates to individuals in different ways, but even in a single individual in many ways, including myself. Revelation itself can come in so many ways and combinations from everything from still small voice, to pictures, videos, feelings, intuition-like, pains in ministering to someone to communicate where the trouble is etc. These various revelations can mimic the five senses or be more intellectual-like. God can communicate how he determines through the holy spirit. We can see in scriptures many varied ways God communicates. God has principles, but we cannot put God in a box, he is too big for that. What works for one person may not work in another.

C. All manifestations of holy spirit can be counterfeited. We also have the problems of not only listening etc. for God's communication, but also interpreting or confusing our body, soul and spirit and which is communicating, as spiritual feelings can and often do mimic physical stimuli; senses. Physical senses can also be misconstrued as "spiritual." Also the spiritual and physical stimuli may confirm and agree to a certain conclusion or conflict or be different. Ultimately, we should strive towards the closest relationship with God through the the spirit, the mind and cooperate in all manner of ways and do our best to constrain the bad aspects of the flesh. 

Confirmation request is a good thing to do with God.

Regarding Seed of The Serpent etc.; I will just say, I have extensive research and experience in that area and personal knowledge and experience involving my own family., as well as others. Genesis 3:15 is significant. I have extensive materials and evidence in this area as well as personal experience that I cannot state publicly for certain reasons. I will just say, VPW and LCM were asking the right questions, but because of their own sin and lack of both research and knowledge and wisdom from above and lack of experience and understanding that they came to false conclusions. Unfortunately this has caused people to completely dismiss totally any research or inquiry into this neglected and important area of research and understanding. I have so much evidence and sources on this subject, as I have spent many years exploring this area (as well as many other subjects) that brought death to mankind and has conferred the dominion of the earth from man to Lucifer, the god of this world until he be taken out of the way into the Lake of Fire for eternity which appears to be very soon in coming to pass.

One must be careful about throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

D. Psychology; Scientific Methodology etc. You seem to rely extensively on scientific methodology, theory and knowledge. There is a place for such, but the spiritual truths certainly are absolutely more true then the soon to be world that will be melted with fervent heat, Even though many scientists are also believers, official science does not recognize the spiritual and scientific evidence is limited to that of the physical. Unfortunately because of the Dark side, much of the science has been used for wicked devices and purposes including mind control which I referred to in earlier post.The Dark side also has muddied the waters much with counterfeit and the demonic in all cultures and times since the beginning. The various mental diseases and symptoms comply with the characteristics and nature of specific demons, which I believe are cause of much of the mental illnesses in humans. Organic causes are also a problem, especially since the food, air, water, materials, vaccinations and even test swabs are loaded with poisonous and dangerous chemicals produced by the huge corporations. The elite so called globalists,, Luciferians or whatever you want to call them, they do exist and do have a dark agenda.

E. I knew as a child that the JFK assassination official conclusions were completely false. I saw Oswald shot live on TV and lived through that period as well as many other traumatic times such as the Cold War, Vietnam, 911, The Gulf Wars etc. I learned about the globalists etc. in 1984 when I read None Dare Call It Conspiracy by Gary Allen, That started a life-long quest of research into that area as well as the Kennedy assasinations etc. Satanism, Luciferianism, Sigil Magic; we are all carrying Federal Reserve Notes including the $1.00 bill with the symbol of Lucifer in the "All Seeing Eye" on the back of the bill. Thus, as symbolic images can carry demons, we are all potentially carrying demons around in our back pockets or purses. The wicked believe in and practice these type and other of "dark arts."

I have done extensive research into history and still do, with a spiritual perspective and have studied law extensively and its origins and specifics and its corruptions, as well as Wars, multitude of conspiracies and events. The CIA coined the term 'Conspiracy Theory" to counter the JFK assassination researchers. I have 10 books on the JFK assassination alone. There are definitely conspiracies both great and small. To say there are not is to defy history, logic, human nature and Satan himself, who is the master of and instigator of evil conspiracies. Theory alone is not bad, there are many theories including the scientific ones. There are a multitude of theories, some good, some half true and some bad, false, or ridiculous and or stupid; such as "all the evil of the world is caused by Micky Mouse, not Lucifer, as Micky is the true God of this world!" "Be careful in watching Micky Mouse on TV and in Movie houses or anywhere for that matter, you could become possessed. Now I have ended in comedy which I find very important and healing and stress reducing.

One last thing, possessed by Devil spirits is not favored now by many Christian researchers, because it implies total ownership. Jesus etc. casting out spirits caused people to be completely delivered. I believe as many do now that demonization is a better term. I believe that those who have crossed the line of separation to make Lucifer (or whatever name is used; Baal, Satan, etc.) as their god, are then owned (possessed) by Lucifer aka whatever...). Paul referred to a wicked person in the Book of Acts as a child of the Devil and therefore it is Biblical, as well as the old Testament various deities names and their followers; worshipers.

 

James French,

minister of The Gospel

 

 

 

The above quote is expanded and thus annotated below to indicate my response

James French:
B. Regarding intuition, the workings of the holy spirit (the gift of God); the holy spirit functions in believers in many ways not only in manifestations, but also just by revelation manifestations of word of knowledge, wisdom and discerning of spirits.

T-Bone:
That sounds redundant – “the holy spirit functions in believers in MANY WAYS NOT ONLY in manifestations, BUT ALSO JUST BY REVELATION MANIFESTATIONS.” You’re saying the same thing – and negating other possibilities - which could be taken to mean the holy spirit functions ONLY IN manifestations.

~ ~ ~ ~ 

James French:
 God communicates to individuals in different ways, but even in a single individual in many ways, including myself. Revelation itself can come in so many ways and combinations from everything from still small voice, to pictures, videos, feelings, intuition-like, pains in ministering to someone to communicate where the trouble is etc. These various revelations can mimic the five senses or be more intellectual-like. God can communicate how he determines through the holy spirit. 

T-Bone:
But logically God is not limited by “the holy spirit” (this may be another area where you and I differ – but that would require a lot more dialog to identify the differences) – since there are instances in the Bible of God communicating to someone who does not have “the holy spirit” – like Nebuchadnezzar’s dream in the book of Daniel. 

~ ~ ~ ~ 

James French:
We can see in scriptures many varied ways God communicates. God has principles, but we cannot put God in a box, he is too big for that. What works for one person may not work in another.

T-Bone:
Can you be more specific? saying “God has principles” implies comprehensive and fundamental laws, rules, protocols, or doctrine that one must SUBMIT to; Yet you turn around and say we can’t put God in a box. Seems contradictory to me. To box someone in means you reduce the number of options or alternatives the boxed in person can choose from.

~ ~ ~ ~ 

James French:
C. All manifestations of holy spirit can be counterfeited. We also have the problems of not only listening etc. for God's communication, but also interpreting or confusing our body, soul and spirit and which is communicating, as spiritual feelings can and often do mimic physical stimuli; senses. Physical senses can also be misconstrued as "spiritual." Also the spiritual and physical stimuli may confirm and agree to a certain conclusion or conflict or be different. Ultimately, we should strive towards the closest relationship with God through the the spirit, the mind and cooperate in all manner of ways and do our best to constrain the bad aspects of the flesh. 

T-Bone:
That’s exactly what wierwille taught and he may have regurgitated that from books like 

The Challenging Counterfeit by Raphael Gasson      That was required reading for The Advanced Class…One of the many reasons I don’t give much credence to the manifestations AS TAUGHT BY wierwille is all that guess work and the assumption there has to be a  learning curve of a believer’s  proficiency in the “operation of the manifestations” improving over time…brings to mind the silly “exceller’s  sessions”  TWI would have believer’s do to practice TIP.  That is hilarious! Where did they get those silly ideas you have to practice the manifestations?

What I gather from the Old and New Testament, classes/teachings/”student-practice-sessions” on “operating the manifestations” or even impromptu lessons on how to perform signs, miracles and wonders are non-existent. There are no narrative developments to indicate a learning curve – and come to think of it – there are no manifestation misfires or failures in the Bible. I think wierwille made a bundle of money selling snake oil – classes and teachings that promise to lead you into manifesting the power of God…God doesn’t need sales reps.

~ ~ ~ ~ 

James French:
Regarding Seed of The Serpent etc.; I will just say, I have extensive research and experience in that area and personal knowledge and experience involving my own family., as well as others. Genesis 3:15 is significant. I have extensive materials and evidence in this area as well as personal experience that I cannot state publicly for certain reasons. 

T-Bone:
It seems like you’re being evasive – there’s another longtime patron of Grease Spot who often claims he has tons of research and has written innumerable theses on the greatness of PFAL and stuff on wierwille’s hidden, lost, and misunderstood teachings but in the 20 years he’s been coming to Grease Spot I haven’t seen any of it. And believe me – many of us have asked him over and over again…I hope you’re not trying to be evasive like that.

This statement of yours is also disturbing -  “personal knowledge and experience involving my own family., as well as others.” Writing people off because YOU think they’re born again of the seed of the serpent seems like a very hateful, unchristian and an awfully permanent thing to pronounce on people…seems like you’re playing God. who put you in charge of determining the eternal status of others? If wierwille was alive in the book of Acts  BEFORE chapter 9, I can just picture him going on a rant about how that fiendish persecutor of the church – Saul, is born again of the wrong seed.

And while we’re on the subject – could you explain how  a person commits the unforgiveable sin? And can you provide Scripture to support your theory? Also – since you interpret Genesis 3:15 “seed” literally – could you explain exactly WHAT IS the seed of the serpent – AND   what is the seed of the woman? You can get into all the science you like – I’m pretty confident I can follow along – I excelled in the sciences in college – I still  enjoy reading books on biology, genetics, physics, black holes, superstring theory , the Holy Grail of speculation - the theory of everything...all kinds of stuff...the more technical the better…the devil is in the details.  now if you get into magic and Harry Potter type stuff - I'll lose interest pretty quick. 
 

~ ~ ~ ~ 

James French:
D. Psychology; Scientific Methodology etc. You seem to rely extensively on scientific methodology, theory and knowledge. There is a place for such, but the spiritual truths certainly are absolutely more true then the soon to be world that will be melted with fervent heat, Even though many scientists are also believers, official science does not recognize the spiritual and scientific evidence is limited to that of the physical. 

T-Bone:
I think standards in any field of study is a good thing – psychology, history, physics, biblical hermeneutics, etc. What’s the problem?

I find scientific methodology – which is a lot of experimentation and observation is the best way to verify scientific truth…Faith deals with revelation – or some supernatural disclosure which could not be discovered by the unaided powers of human reason. Now reason is the natural ability of the human mind to discover truth. With science, truth is determined by verification – as in the scientific method... Flying a plane or launching a rocket into space are doable because scientists "found out the truth about gravity" – like there are ways to work around it. Science is practical – if it works, it’s true. Scientific truth gives us no criteria for metaphysical truth. Therefore, what is needed is another definition of truth for the metaphysical realm. 

I subscribe to the correspondence theory of truth. “In metaphysics and philosophy of language, the correspondence theory of truth states that the truth or falsity of a statement is determined only by how it relates to the world and whether it accurately describes (i.e., corresponds with) that world. Correspondence theories claim that true beliefs and true statements correspond to the actual state of affairs. This type of theory attempts to posit a relationship between thoughts or statements on one hand, and things or facts on the other.”  

from: Wikipedia
 

 So basically, truth consists in some form of connection…correlation…resemblance…agreement between a belief and a fact. For me, this gets into how I look at the Bible – and there’s a lot of ways to look at the Bible – even as a Christian.

I believe the Bible is metaphysical truth (metaphysical = in a transcendent sense or to a reality beyond what is perceptible to the senses) – that it is a revelation from God – written by people inspired of God. Considering that people are not perfect, have worldviews shaped by their times and culture, I think the Bible is best understood as metaphysical truth and not as scientific truth. 

~ ~ ~ ~ 

James French:
Unfortunately because of the Dark side, much of the science has been used for wicked devices and purposes including mind control which I referred to in earlier post.The Dark side also has muddied the waters much with counterfeit and the demonic in all cultures and times since the beginning. The various mental diseases and symptoms comply with the characteristics and nature of specific demons, which I believe are cause of much of the mental illnesses in humans. 

T-Bone:
I find conspiracy theories often have some bits of truth and facts but also have ample amounts of speculation and bias...and some seem to have a hidden agenda too…and just a heads up – when discussions start getting into politics, conspiracy theories and misinformation the threads usually get shut down…You might find an outlet for this stuff on Reddit.
 

Edited March 3, 2022 by T-Bone
revision

[waysider]

17 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

You might find an outlet for this stuff on Reddit.

It can go either way on Reddit and almost always does.

[modcat5]

Responding to multiple reports. The thread will be locked pending review.

[modcat5]

Ok, so it appears some dialogue got out of hand and you guys resolved it among yourselves.

To reiterate the rules: No namecalling (this includes altering the person's handle to mock him).

No politics (and absolutely zero tolerance for COVID misinformation, no warnings).

Please restrict your criticism to the arguments being made, not to the people making them. Calling people fools for their beliefs is unacceptable. Demanding proof for assertions is perfectly acceptable.