My spiritual experiences are part of my testimony as a Christian; I have never faked any spiritual manifestation or made things up as being real. Are you saying these things don't exist and are not available?
No. I said: "I don't believe..." that's an "I" statement. It stands in stark contrast to the fact that I did not declare that such things are not possible. I also believe I'm neither qualified to evaluate your claims about your experience nor am I qualified to make any such declaration about what God has made or would make available.
My beliefs are not based on PFAL, but on scriptures, God teaching me and my experiences which I have learned from. Some things in PFAL are true, others not so. Way Ministry was a mixture of good and bad. It and the people were not all good or bad. Christ in each believer is true, according to both scripture and MY EXPERIENCES.
A very good example of that no human is perfect, especially regarding his actions in his worldly life with the devil being the God of this world with sometimes deception for humanity. Only Jesus Christ is the perfect Son of man. And He was and is the only perfect man in his earthly life. Hopefully we can at least improve in our spiritual knowledge and actions through God, his Son Jesus Christ who has given his followers the Holy Spirit as a spiritual connection with God and Jesus Christ as a gift.
If you never ate an ice cream cone with vanilla ice cream with sprinkels on top, does not mean they do not exist. . . . Regarding Bolshevik's statement above; Yes, I was very sick, had the flu. But I was believing for a 6 ft. hedge of protection from God. God did deliver what I asked for in a marvelous and manner that was so spectacular. It was God's doing. My testimonial. My part was I believed God. He did more than I can ask or think. Decades later he followed up with explanation of what happened. Stand on the word and God delivers! God promises His desire for us to prosper and be in health, which would effect immune system and the whole Body and Soul potentially. . . .
You seem more defensive than I was expecting. Your response about the flu doesn't seem as clear as I hoped. The language used it very familiar to me however. I am just stating your response seems like a non-answer. It's an unclear action promising an unclear outcome.
As far as ice cream, extraordinary claims require extraordinary scoops.
" It's an unclear action promising an unclear outcome. "
NO! Its not unclear at all. God stopped that street person from attacking me at exactly 6 ft. as I had prayed previously because I moved to a rough city to go to college when a College Ambassador. This was God and I, not Wierwille or anyone else. Your response is not taking the simplicity and believing me. You doubters are basically calling me a liar and God a liar, as His word promises the manifestations which are evident both in the scriptures and in life if you only believe; including all 9, as God is not a respector of persons. Why do you call yourself Bolshevik, as the Bolsheviks were the original communists in the Russian revolution of 1917 as Marx and Engels were inspired by Lucifer to write the Communist Manifesto which has resulted in hundreds of millions of human deaths?
Of course you have a "right" to call yourself whatever you like? Why Not "Working for Lucifer," you might as well? Tell us pratell, why, and be as clear as possible why. What would motivate someone that was involved in the Bible and formerly with any organization that was teaching some Biblical principles though corrupt to some extent, want to parade around here with such an Evil name. Would you choose Charlie Manson? Are you a communist? I hate communism and dislike commies, they destroy civilization and bring in every foul spirit; Communism followed by lying, stealing, murder, mayhem etc. Nothing any true Christian should or would be involved in? Did the Way damage you to such an extent that you turned to communism?
I have studied a lot of history including extensive study of communism and I read all of the Gulag series of books.
I am not being defensive, I am being offensive for the gospels sake and the truth, NOT WAY TRUTH. I have all the materials in my library of the PFAL etc., but I haven't looked at it for decades...
Well, a person could raise the dead literally in front of some people and they would not believe. Just speaking in languages not learned nor "made up or faked like T-Bone did, was enough for me. I wouldn't waste my time with some Tom Foolery thing. Well, everybody is going to give an account for their life. It would take a lot more than LCM. VPW to destroy my faith and experiences that I saw. Others have seen and done miracles also. Well, these are the end times, many fools think Biden is doing a great job, destroying everything...
Has ANYone on GSC over the decades really had ANY experience with "discerning of spirits" or other "manifestations" as taught by Victor Wierwille? I suspect that the answer is NO, NONE. Even if any have claimed to have such experience or insights, I just don't believe it.
Wierwille told stories. Some true, some not true. At their root, these stories were nothing more and nothing less that ways to describe and frame and understand things (including biblical stories) that may have been read and/or observed. But sincerity (or believing said stories and telling/re-telling them with an authoritative voice) doesn't make them true, factual or in any sense "reality."
They are just ways to communicate a common way to understand things. I don't believe Wierwille was "possessed." He may have been influenced by selfish and likely evil... influences. That's as far as I can go on it.
I've experienced revelation. My experiences often predated hearing what vpw had to say on the subject. I suspect his understanding was SHALLOW because it was based entirely on what OTHER people understood and taught, rather than his own work or his own experience. (So, yes, when he claimed to go to the racetrack and pick all the winners by revelation but didn't put ANY money down, not even on the last race, I'm calling that a lie and him the liar that lied. When he claimed that, the same day at the same racetrack, that God showed him who was saved and "seed of the serpent" and vpw went up and addressed them, I'm calling that another lie and him the liar that lied.)
Technically speaking, some of it lined up with what I later heard from him- since he was parroting what other, more learned men had learned. I didn't learn it from him, my experiences didn't follow doing things his way, but my experiences didn't contradict some of what he said (nor vice versa.) I give him no credit for it, but I also don't discount my experiences- some of which was bought painfully.
It sounded to me like you were dismissing all modern revelation categorically. If so, I disagree and would be hard to convince otherwise. If not, I think I'm not the only one who thought that's what you meant.
At an event in Oakland in 1979 VPW was about a yard away from me in his 3 piece white suit. I was shocked, I discerned by holy spirit that he was "Loaded" with demons. I didn't say one word to him. Only a few other times have I spiritually sensed such intense what I call "demon density." A close friend of mine who was in The Way had a similar discerning of VPW's spirits at another time and place.
All the garbage about Advanced class grads and Way Corps and how sharp they were supposed to be etc. and yet I sensed this before I had the advanced class. Holy spirit is not dependent on Way classes. I stayed in the Way for the fellowship and took the advanced class in 84. I grinned and bared it until 1987 when masses left including me. I am glad I had the Way experience, some of the best and worst people I met in the Way. Lucifer Con Martindale (Loy) was the worst in my opinion. I asked Way Corps Grad Phil Sebastian before he passed away, who knew LCM very well if he remembered Martindale ever operating the love of God? He said "Not that I can recall." Neither can I. I never liked LCM spiritually nor his demeanor.
Another true story about LCM and his attitude which is true. In San Francisco at a Business and Professions Conference held at the Sheraton Plaza Hotel, a friend of mine who will remain nameless had a problem with homosexuality, as he was raped twice when an adolescent. He had a terrible conflict and no matter what he could not shake it. He attended the same conference I did and he anonymously requested prayer for his problem in the prayer request book. Lucifer Con Martindale got up before the whole gathering and yelled in anger "I can't believe it, we actually have a homosexual here who requested prayer in the prayer request book! What is a prayer request book for anyway? My friend left The Way soon after that and eventually passed away also. He was the type that would help people, he was a victim. I was upset when my friend told me he was the one. I called and complained to Headquarters which fell on deaf ears. Martindale brought homosexuals into the Way with his production of Athletes of The Spirit, as he foolishly apparently did not know that generally professional male dancers tend to be "gay." So he wouldn't help a believer get delivered of homosexuality, and brought more into the ministry for his horrid and poor dancing fiasco while he routinely practiced adultery. He was as spiritually sharp as a potato, and just as intelligent in my opinion.
18 hours ago, James French said:
Rocky wrote: "Has ANYone on GSC over the decades really had ANY experience with "discerning of spirits" or other "manifestations" as taught by Victor Wierwille? I suspect that the answer is NO, NONE. Even if any have claimed to have such experience or insights, I just don't believe it."
Bolshevik wrote: "
This is good I'm glad you brought this up. You were able to use for force fields in sort of a "HE SHALL NOT PASS" scenario . . . but at the same time had the flu. It seems you could have deflected viruses too if necessary. But this didn't happen, apparently.
Some other folks here have been very adamant about using a "God-Given immune system". Do you happen to understand what these folks are getting at?
Perhaps you could shed some light on the matter by explaining how you were able to protect yourself in one area, but not another?"
T-Bone summary: He faked SIT in PFAL onwards, and T-Bone stated "I say the experiences you’ve mentioned are TOTALLY UNLIKE mine, partly because I find your narrative incredulous and partly because your premise is based on faulty teachings from the Power For Abundant Living class."
My General comments: My experiences are true, not caused by mental illness, delusion etc. Just because you have not experienced something, especially of a spiritual nature as referenced in the scriptures does not mean I and others have not experienced them and are not true. If you never ate an ice cream cone with vanilla ice cream with sprinkels on top, does not mean they do not exist.
My spiritual experiences are part of my testimony as a Christian; I have never faked any spiritual manifestation or made things up as being real. Are you saying these things don't exist and are not available? The fact that you do not think these things are available just because you do not have them or have them and don't believe or know how to manifest them does not mean they are not available to others. Both the Biblical records and many people I know and trust who were in the Way like me have given their testimonies and I believe they are true also. These go back to mentors who assisted me when I was starting out in the Way. Believers from other organizations and beliefs as well as independent ministries also have given testimonials (I am not referring to the TV evangelists and other money grabbing types who I dislike).
Regarding: Rocky statement as above and other doubters etc.: You have the right to believe or not believe what you want. But you are basically calling me a liar, a fool or a mental case by implication? Again, its my testimonial.
Regarding Bolshevik's statement above; Yes, I was very sick, had the flu. But I was believing for a 6 ft. hedge of protection from God. God did deliver what I asked for in a marvelous and manner that was so spectacular. It was God's doing. My testimonial. My part was I believed God. He did more than I can ask or think. Decades later he followed up with explanation of what happened. Stand on the word and God delivers! God promises His desire for us to prosper and be in health, which would effect immune system and the whole Body and Soul potentially.
Regarding T-Bones statements; You faked SIT. This brings into question your credibility, as well as your inability to manifest anything other than a pimple perhaps? My beliefs are not based on PFAL, but on scriptures, God teaching me and my experiences which I have learned from. Some things in PFAL are true, others not so. Way Ministry was a mixture of good and bad. It and the people were not all good or bad. Christ in each believer is true, according to both scripture and MY EXPERIENCES. GOD is my witness also as well as me. Also others have seen, such as the woman walking for the first time in seven years. I witnessed it. You did not. If I saw a bank robbery, and the bank was actually robbed, would you say the bank was not robbed? You apparently have not seen much, and that is sad considering all the areas you served in with the Way? That is testimonial about lack of faith and the apostasy in general of the Christian Body of Christ, the Church as foretold in scripture in these end times we are in that such would be the case; APOSTASY, MEANING A FALLING AWAY FROM GOD. The Jews returned to Israel as foretold in scripture after a very long time. We are in the end times. I suggest you doubters and unbelievers of God's 9 manifestations and any other doubts and non-beliefs of the Bible go humbly back to God and ask Him to help you "See the light, not from a Way dogma, but from God's spirit if it is in you, and if not get it, and believe God and manifest and not fake the manifestations.
As regards Mark Sanguenetti's statements, he refers to Christ in the believer, and I appreciate his statement.
Take note – I’m responding to a couple of posts
James French on Feb 18th said:
At an event in Oakland in 1979 VPW was about a yard away from me in his 3 piece white suit. I was shocked, I discerned by holy spirit that he was "Loaded" with demons. I didn't say one word to him. Only a few other times have I spiritually sensed such intense what I call "demon density." A close friend of mine who was in The Way had a similar discerning of VPW's spirits at another time and place.
All the garbage about Advanced class grads and Way Corps and how sharp they were supposed to be etc. and yet I sensed this before I had the advanced class. Holy spirit is not dependent on Way classes. I stayed in the Way for the fellowship and took the advanced class in 84. I grinned and bared it until 1987 when masses left including me. I am glad I had the Way experience, some of the best and worst people I met in the Way. Lucifer Con Martindale (Loy) was the worst in my opinion. I asked Way Corps Grad Phil Sebastian before he passed away, who knew LCM very well if he remembered Martindale ever operating the love of God? He said "Not that I can recall." Neither can I. I never liked LCM spiritually nor his demeanor.
~ ~ ~ ~
T-Bone’s reply to that:
I am curious on how you “discerned by holy spirit that he was "Loaded" with demons”.
Exactly HOW did you perceive that?
And HOW were you able to quantify “loaded”?
And just as critical – did you IDENTIFY all the demons?
Sorry to rain on your parade, but all that pretentious spiritualism, self-righteous grandstanding and moral posturing you do is not necessary to figure out what was wrong with harmful and controlling cult-leaders like wierwille and martindale. The good Lord gave us Scripture and if folks would have made good use of cognitive skills and intuition, they would have accurately DISCERNED what ravenous wolves and false teachers these bozos were!
Unfortunately, most of us here on Grease Spot had to learn that lesson the hard way – meaning we learned by experiencing the consequences of making mistakes – like foolishly following a cult-leader’s methods of solving problems and making decisions. There’s the lazy way of ostracizing someone who disagrees with a cult-leader…or who has been victimized by a cult-leader - so the cult-leader labels them possessed. The way to escape this nonsense is to think outside the cult’s ideological box.
There’s some interesting reading by ex-TWI followers – if you haven’t read these yet – you should! If you have read them – you should reread them again! And take note of how they HONESTLY looked at Scripture, made good use of cognitive skills and intuition to accurately DISCERN what ravenous wolves and false teachers these bozos are - and not only that – they had the courage to put it in writing and get the word out to others! Here tis:
Was YOUR “discerning of spirits” able to catch the lying and stealing of an unabashed and incompetent plagiarist like wierwille? It’s silly to display such false bravado in “operating the nine manifestations” when it’s the same shtick of wierwille – a hodge-podge of twisted Scripture, ideas he stole from others and usually made worse by his incompetent “reworking of it” to suit his agenda…
FYI James French...you’ve been had! You were “taught” how to “spiritually profile” by the number one suspect in spiritual abuse!
Maybe you should consider reevaluating YOUR methods. They seem to follow the same obfuscating and manipulative tactics that made wierwille and martindale so harmful and controlling. It smacks of us-versus-them mentality, black-and-white thinking (aka all-or-nothing thinking or “splitting”) and malicious labeling.
Harmful and controlling cult-leaders like wierwille and martindale would often polarize social relationships as well as doctrine in order to divide people into two sharply contrasting groups or sets of opinions or beliefs – and then pressure…bully people to choose a side – you’re either on THEIR side – the “rightly-divided Word” side…God’s side or you’re on the wrong side. If you disagree with THEM – then it means YOU’RE the one who is deceived – tricked by the devil…or got possessed…these creepy cult-leaders motivate by fear of the boogieman - Satan, demons, or the fictitious wrong-seed boys and girls – what a twisted and sick doctrine but oh so convenient for manipulating followers by fear…I remember wierwille in several big meetings open to the public declare that in order for someone to really believe in the Trinity they’d have to be possessed…wow - I remember something Jesus said in John 13:35By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another. ...wierwille didn't exemplify Jesus' teaching now did he?
= = = = =
James French said on February 27th:
My General comments: My experiences are true, not caused by mental illness, delusion etc. Just because you have not experienced something, especially of a spiritual nature as referenced in the scriptures does not mean I and others have not experienced them and are not true. If you never ate an ice cream cone with vanilla ice cream with sprinkels on top, does not mean they do not exist…
Regarding T-Bones statements; You faked SIT. This brings into question your credibility, as well as your inability to manifest anything other than a pimple perhaps?
My beliefs are not based on PFAL, but on scriptures, God teaching me and my experiences which I have learned from. Some things in PFAL are true, others not so. Way Ministry was a mixture of good and bad. It and the people were not all good or bad. Christ in each believer is true, according to both scripture and MY EXPERIENCES. GOD is my witness also as well as me. Also others have seen, such as the woman walking for the first time in seven years. I witnessed it. You did not. If I saw a bank robbery, and the bank was actually robbed, would you say the bank was not robbed? You apparently have not seen much, and that is sad considering all the areas you served in with the Way?
~ ~ ~ ~
T-Bone’s reply to that:
Please review what I said in my Feb 24th post: “I have ZERO experience in discerning of spirits or any other of the “manifestations” as taught by wierwille”.
what makes you think what wierwille taught about them is correct?
what? is that YOUR litmus test for real Christians - if they line up with your charismatic caricature of Christianity.
And my statement does NOT mean I have no experience in using spiritual abilities. what? we're all supposed to go around bragging about "operating all 9 all the time"? PAAALEEEEZE give me a break.
Please check out other chapters in the New Testament – there’s a lot more spiritual abilities than just your precious 9 manifestations. Please read my previous posts
Here
earlier on this thread – where I point out some grave errors in logic and ignoring Greek syntax by wierwille’s handling of I Corinthians 12 and 14 – a manifestation is a detailed disclosure of the Spirit – ONE OF the MANY WAYS the Holy Spirit makes Himself known is through believers using their spiritual gifts..…I find your attempts at one-upmanship very silly and immature. Your attitude of spiritual elitism is underwhelming – but maybe it impresses the people you hang out with – it doesn’t bother me – though I will call your bluff on it when you pull that bull$hit with me.
You seem to think that what wierwille taught is the gold standard…what’s really puzzling to me is that you “discerned” wierwille was loaded with demons in 1979 and YOU STUCK AROUND ANYWAY – and EVEN LATER TOOK THE ADVANCED CLASS in 1984! And you even “grinned and bared it until 1987 when masses left " ... And that’s really why it’s hard to believe anything you say…
Does it ever bother your conscience that you KNEW he was loaded with demons and yet you stuck around for some 8 more years anyway?
Did you still abundantly share of your money to TWI during that time?
Did you endorse TWI to anyone you worked with or witnessed to during that time?
Did you get anyone to take PFAL during that time?
Does it ever bother your conscience that you KNEW he was loaded with demons and YET you facilitated him and his load of demons to abuse Christians anyway?
Careful how you answer those questions - they could nab you for aiding and abetting a pathological lying, malignant narcissist, sexual predator...and another count for aiding and abetting his load of demons.
This one statement of yours is really interesting: “If I saw a bank robbery, and the bank was actually robbed, would you say the bank was not robbed? You apparently have not seen much, and that is sad considering all the areas you served in with the Way?”
If an ACTUAL bank robbery did occur – there’s going to be perpetrators, evidence, video recordings, victims, and witnesses. I have over 40 years of technical experience in the security industry and have worked with police departments, private security, the FBI and bank managers, and have even testified in court as an expert witness. So, you can drop your stupid hypothetical situation. I know what it takes to prove something happened. Where’s the proof of your miraculous adventures? You’re just some person on the internet with an avatar named James French. What are YOU trying to prove? The more you pontificate and claim you’re so spiritual the more you weaken your case.
Did YOUR discerning of spirits detect any lying spirits in wierwille?
Wanna know how I found out wierwille was a pathological liar?
The old fashion way – using cognitive skills and intuition.
I left TWI in 1986 during the power-grabs and spiritualizing. Besides all the red flags I had been ignoring for 12 years of TWI-involvement there was also a growing sense of sense of disillusionment derived from the failure of wierwille/PFAL/the Advanced Class/the WOW program/the way corps program to fulfill their declared goals – and also my perception of inconsistencies between the actions of certain TWI-leaders and the ideals they supposedly represent…A criterion that wierwille used at the beginning of the PFAL class kept popping up in my head. He was reading from John 10:10 “The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly” and then he said either Jesus lied to us here or he told the truth. If he lied to us here – then we ought to chuck the whole thing away – because, he reasoned, if the Bible is not trustworthy there it’s not trustworthy anywhere else so why waste your time…and now ironically, I found myself gravitating toward the same criterion – if I could find some serious falsehoods about wierwille and his teachings – then that would be a good reason to review and reevaluate everything.
As a matter of fact, I kinda used that thinking to explain why I was putting my relationship with TWI on hold. To my upper leadership and all the believers in my area I was clear and concise in expressing the reason for my resignation from any TWI-responsibilities (at the time my way corps assignment I was overseeing all the TWI-fellowships of an area about the size of three mid-sized cities) . In all my communications I would refer to I Thessalonians 5:21 “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good”.
Exhibit A:
In the authorized book on TWI, titled “The Way Living in Love” (by Elena S. Whiteside, co 1972, American Christian Press, Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 72-89132), on page 175, Whiteside quotes wierwille as he talked about his studies and influences:
“I don’t remember much of the past. I’ll have to renew my mind. Oh yes, did I tell you I taught at Gordon Divinity School? Homiletics was my specialty – that’s preaching. I took everything I could take at the Moody Bible Institute too, through their correspondence courses.
And in the years that followed, there were many men I learned from: Glenn Clark, Karl Barth from Switzerland, E. Stanley Jones, Paul Tillich, Starr Daily, Rufus Mosley, Dr. John Gaynor Banks, and there were many, many others. I tried to get all I could from anybody.”
I focused on what wierwille said about his education. In early June of 1987, I contacted The Moody Correspondence School Department of the Moody Bible Institute and spoke with Vivian Ruby in the Registrar’s Office. I was stunned to find out they had no record of wierwille completing a course with them. I couldn’t believe it. I didn’t want to believe it. I had to have something more tangible than a woman’s voice over the phone telling me that in effect wierwille lied about something in his education. I asked her to mail me that information in a letter with Moody Correspondence School’s official letterhead…so here is
Exhibit B: the letter reads as follows:
June 29, 1987
To whom it may concern,
This is to verify that Victor Wierwille did not complete a course with us. This is not to say that he didn’t purchase a course from us but that he did not complete one. We do not keep records for courses that are not complete for more than 10 years.
Sincerely,
Vivian Ruby
Registrar’s Office
~ ~ ~ ~
I have that letter on file in my Grease Spot profile album – and it’s here
Even if you want to give wierwille the benefit of a doubt and suggest he may have purchased a bunch of courses but did not complete them – I would say that’s doubtful – it still doesn’t agree with what he said, “I took everything I could take at the Moody Bible Institute too, through their correspondence courses.” Even if he purchased ten classes but didn’t complete any of them – how could he say he took everything Moody Bible Institute Correspondence School had to offer? He made a vague and misleading statement. Needless to say, my "investigation" really picked up steam after I held that letter in my hand.
~ ~ ~ ~
James French said:
…”That is testimonial about lack of faith and the apostasy in general of the Christian Body of Christ, the Church as foretold in scripture in these end times we are in that such would be the case; APOSTASY, MEANING A FALLING AWAY FROM GOD. The Jews returned to Israel as foretold in scripture after a very long time. We are in the end times. I suggest you doubters and unbelievers of God's 9 manifestations and any other doubts and non-beliefs of the Bible go humbly back to God and ask Him to help you "See the light, not from a Way dogma, but from God's spirit if it is in you, and if not get it, and believe God and manifest and not fake the manifestations.”
~ ~ ~ ~
T-Bone’s reply to that:
Hey, great discernment there – “That is testimonial about lack of faith and the apostasy in general of the Christian Body of Christ” said one former cult-follower to another former cult-follower about the same pseudo-Christian harmful and controlling cult they both use to belong to.
Speaking of light – Jesus Christ mentioned a really weird predicament about people who ASSUME they have the light – but if what they ASSUME is light is ACTUALLY DARKNESS, how great and terrible is that darkness! Matthew 6:23
sorry to burst your bubble of self-righteousness…but let’s put things in perspective…after 12 years of being indoctrinated…brainwashed…I gradually came to my senses and realized I faked speaking in tongues in session 12 of PFAL…but at the time – I didn’t KNOWINGLY do that…I literally followed wierwille’s instructions to move my lips, tongue and mouth…it felt just like when I faked foreign languages joking around in high school…we’re talking about some 48 years ago…what did I have for breakfast that morning?...it’s possible I thought wow I must have been speaking in tongues all those times in high school when I was fooling around…maybe I was SITing…I never recorded my schtick in high school or my speaking in tongues in TWI – if I did I could have brought that to a professional linguist for analysis – and could then find out if either was genuine of fake…at least I’m honest and not putting on airs I’m “operating all nine all the time”.
…But you know, I served TWI with a clear conscience…I never committed adultery. I never sexually molested anyone…I never stole anyone’s money or belongings… …now remember we’re still putting things in perspective…I’m just flabbergasted you harp on me faking SIT and yet YOU turned a blind eye to whatever a cult-leader like wierwille was doing - and who by the way you also claimed was loaded with demons - you turned a blind eye to all that for 8 years! I dunno...something doesn't add up...something about your story sounds fishy to me.
Wierwille was an unabashed plagiarist…that means he stole and lied…a lot…isn’t there stuff in the Bible that says we’re not supposed to do that? He was a known sexual predator, an adulterer…isn’t there stuff in the Bible about how bad that is? Well…if you ever decide to get off your high horse and read – or reread those three books I listed above – maybe you’ll be able to recalibrate your scale of values to the simple honest principles of The Bible.
well...that's all for now - have a good evening
Edited by T-Bone discerning of editors or is it editors who are discerning
" It's an unclear action promising an unclear outcome. "
NO! Its not unclear at all. God stopped that street person from attacking me at exactly 6 ft. as I had prayed previously because I moved to a rough city to go to college when a College Ambassador. This was God and I, not Wierwille or anyone else. Your response is not taking the simplicity and believing me. You doubters are basically calling me a liar and God a liar, as His word promises the manifestations which are evident both in the scriptures and in life if you only believe; including all 9, as God is not a respector of persons. Why do you call yourself Bolshevik, as the Bolsheviks were the original communists in the Russian revolution of 1917 as Marx and Engels were inspired by Lucifer to write the Communist Manifesto which has resulted in hundreds of millions of human deaths?
Of course you have a "right" to call yourself whatever you like? Why Not "Working for Lucifer," you might as well? Tell us pratell, why, and be as clear as possible why. What would motivate someone that was involved in the Bible and formerly with any organization that was teaching some Biblical principles though corrupt to some extent, want to parade around here with such an Evil name. Would you choose Charlie Manson? Are you a communist? I hate communism and dislike commies, they destroy civilization and bring in every foul spirit; Communism followed by lying, stealing, murder, mayhem etc. Nothing any true Christian should or would be involved in? Did the Way damage you to such an extent that you turned to communism?
I have studied a lot of history including extensive study of communism and I read all of the Gulag series of books.
I am not being defensive, I am being offensive for the gospels sake and the truth, NOT WAY TRUTH. I have all the materials in my library of the PFAL etc., but I haven't looked at it for decades...
I was in college taking a history course when I signed up on this site. The textbook was opened up to a section on "bolsheviks". At the time it was just a word to me with no meaning whatsoever.
Later I became interested in the psychology of totalitarian rulers. So the word reminds me of that.
It's interesting how things and words take on meaning over time, ain't it?
The main thing that the devil with demons, which in my mind I call spiritual ants, tries to do with Christians or followers of Jesus Christ is try to speak to them with the primary purpose of deception. This is seen in scriptures from the bible. This is first read in Genesis chapter 3 with the devil figuratively called a serpent.
Quote
Genesis 3:1-7
3 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?" 2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.'" 4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." 6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves. (NIV)
The devil, that I figuratively call the chief spiritual ant, even tried to speak to Jesus Christ at the start of His ministry to even try to deceive Him. This is read in Matthew, Mark and Luke from this informative and scriptural web site.
Yes, this is not a perfect age with the devil and demons not yet put in prison, which is where they belong. The start of this is the thousand year period as read in Revelation chapter 20. I cover this with detail in chapter 15 of my biblical teaching book.Our Loving Savior Jesus Christ
I've experienced revelation. My experiences often predated hearing what vpw had to say on the subject. I suspect his understanding was SHALLOW because it was based entirely on what OTHER people understood and taught, rather than his own work or his own experience. (So, yes, when he claimed to go to the racetrack and pick all the winners by revelation but didn't put ANY money down, not even on the last race, I'm calling that a lie and him the liar that lied. When he claimed that, the same day at the same racetrack, that God showed him who was saved and "seed of the serpent" and vpw went up and addressed them, I'm calling that another lie and him the liar that lied.)
Technically speaking, some of it lined up with what I later heard from him- since he was parroting what other, more learned men had learned. I didn't learn it from him, my experiences didn't follow doing things his way, but my experiences didn't contradict some of what he said (nor vice versa.) I give him no credit for it, but I also don't discount my experiences- some of which was bought painfully.
It sounded to me like you were dismissing all modern revelation categorically. If so, I disagree and would be hard to convince otherwise. If not, I think I'm not the only one who thought that's what you meant.
BTW, in other news,
NO POLITICS, please, by ANY posters.
I used an "I" statement. I believe. I don't believe. That is in stark contrast to declaring it's not available at all.
It would be tedious for me and for readers for me to spell out what I believe about what IS available.
Briefly (hopefully), rain falls on the just and the unjust. I'm not sure that everything humans receive by what we learned from TWI constitutes revelation necessarily is limited to what God plants in our brains/minds/consciousness because we are in the household of God, or even that we are born-again Christians. Things happen. In order for us to know it is revelation from God as we were taught (from the Bible), does that mean anyone who gets anything intuitively who is not a believer must have gotten that revelation from the devil? I no longer subscribe to that version of what constitutes good vs evil. A lot of what occurred in TWIs history was evil.
But you are basically calling me a liar, a fool or a mental case by implication? Again, its my testimonial.
Btw, that's one reason I used an "I" statement. I do appreciate that you ended your sentence with a question mark. You apparently were asking me for clarification. To clarify (whether you were asking or not), your testimonial is YOUR testimonial. I have no right to say your testimonial is untrue. That's why I wasn't doing so.
Way back in 1977 or 1978 a woman came to our house fellowship in a wheel chair, she hadn't walked in 7 years. She heard the teaching and she had faith for healing and said; "I want to walk tonight" Immediately everyone without verbal direction by anyone, but as inspired by the holy spirit immediately started silently speaking in tongues immediately for her to walk, which she did. The house leader assisted her by helping her up with his hand and arm. She walked for the first time in 7 years!
I can go along with you on this.
I was at a fellowship (long past my TWI days, but it was reformed ex-Wayfers who'd walked away from TWI doctrines). This was 20 years ago, I don't remember all the details.
An older man attended. He had walked with sticks or crutches or some such (not in a wheelchair) for many years - the fellowship leader took him quietly aside into the kitchen with 1 or 2 other witnesses, prayed with him and held his hands as he took his first steps. A great shout of joy alerted all the rest of us to something amazing. Here was this man, walking, unaided, stumbling about in the kitchen. He then went outside (accompanied for safety by a couple of people) and spent an hour or more just walking around the little quiet road in which this fellowship took place, and getting better and better at balance, and walking. He was crying with joy.
I don't know about afterwards, as I didn't go there often. I saw this. It happened.
Who got the glory? God. The leader backed off and claimed no credit at all.
Anybody remember ROA 1976 or 1977? VPW took to the stage at the closing and directed (from the stage) a healing/ministering event. Lots of "Lo Shanta"s, lots of laid on hands, lots of tears and emotion. I vividly remember it for several reasons which may be too personal to share. What I don't remember about it are tales of anyone coming away from it "healed".
I've had to play along with people for long periods of time who believe they've been healed. It's obvious they are not and someone has to deal with reality. It's a living hell.
In this game of my beliefs are my beliefs and not yours, who pays the price?
Anybody remember ROA 1976 or 1977? VPW took to the stage at the closing and directed (from the stage) a healing/ministering event. Lots of "Lo Shanta"s, lots of laid on hands, lots of tears and emotion. I vividly remember it for several reasons which may be too personal to share. What I don't remember about it are tales of anyone coming away from it "healed".
Stuff like that makes me wonder about the power of peer pressure…groupthink…and self-deception…
I wonder how many folks have been kidding themselves - by allowing a desire to fit in cloud their judgment.
…thinking again about how some die-hard PFAL-fans will get all up in arms when someone says they faked speaking in tongues just doesn’t realize the amount of pressure that harmful and controlling cults exert on followers to conform…the “norm” is everyone MUST speak in tongues at the end of session 12 or else they’re subjected to a type of Spanish-Inquisition-process in another room…armed with the intent of maintaining the orthodoxy of PFAL, whoever is conducting this little addendum to session 12 MUST find out WHY the person didn’t speak in tongues…”what’s stopping them from doing it? Are they even born again? Did they commit the unforgiveable sin? Do they have a demon of fear holding them back?”
Imagine how nerve-racking this can be – not just for the person who failed to “manifest” but the worry and fear in the mind of the “experienced” grad knowing that if this person doesn’t “manifest” – then THEY will have to report back to their leadership with all the details and then they are subjected to some next-level-$hit-Spanish-Inquisition – in order to maintain the orthodoxy of PFAL – “somebody has to be blamed for the failure cuz there’s nothing wrong with PFAL”…That’s just the start of the road to indoctrination…other items will come up depending on the whim or behest of a harmful and controlling cult-leader…like martindale’s homo-purge.
We are social creatures and have a natural desire to fit in. Harmful and controlling cults like the Way International cause discomfort, pain, fear, sadness, frustration and even anger and resentment deep down inside of people who want to fit in – but there’s stuff in their life…in their personality…in their true self that does not conform to TWI’s ideology… …So to survive in the group and to insulate our authentic self from further harm, we adapt somehow – we bury those things and put on our ministry-face. We don’t speak the truth - instead we say what is acceptable…We don’t call a problem “a problem” we call it “an opportunity”. Thus our adaptive self enables us to get along in a challenging social environment like TWI with some success and with the least amount of conflict with others – but often at the expense of our authentic self going into hibernation... The longer you stay involved with TWI the more your authentic self gets buried under TWI’s values, goals, priorities, contrived interpersonal skills, beliefs, behaviors - all of which serves TWI more than your best interest...
What wierwille taught is the real you – was actually more along the lines of The Stepford Wives. As a tyrant with delusions of grandeur, wierwille was a proponent of the ideal believer always being servile... compliant... submissive... a spineless person endowed with an almost robot-like ability to suppress emotions, ignore sensory input, and turn off logical subroutines…all the while happily conforming to groupthink. Basically it’s the dehumanizing effect of a cult-leader’s malignant narcissism.
Harmful and controlling cults wage a continuous silent war on one’s personhood – and one of the major casualties of these attacks is a type of identity crisis. Some folks might tend to question themselves a lot…most lack the confidence in their own thinking process… we were taught to always check with leadership before making any big decisions… Self-awareness is a conscious knowledge of our true character, true feelings, personal preferences, deep-down motives, and desires. However, this may be difficult to perceive through that translucent overlay of TWI’s social identity “bestowed” on followers. It’s like wearing frosted glasses and looking at your own reflection in the mirror…details are diffused …individual features are not clear.
Out of necessity we indulge in self-deception to feel comfortable.
Self-deception is a process of denying or rationalizing away the relevance, significance, or importance of opposing evidence and logical argument. Self-deception involves convincing oneself of a truth (or lack of truth) so that one does not reveal any self-knowledge of the deception.
from Wikipedia
We deceive ourselves because we don’t have enough psychological strength to admit the truth and deal with the consequences that will follow. (clinical psychologist Cortney S. Warren Ph.D)
TWI-believers who were never way corps often don’t get it when ex-way corps reveal the dark underbelly of the beast. They might think we’re weak...stupid...not very spiritual... …surely there can’t be anything wrong with a malignant narcissist/sexual predator/pathological liar who created the way corps program based on the gold standard of truth – PFAL.
Edited by T-Bone typos are either mistakes or else the rest of the post is wrong
We are social creatures and have a natural desire to fit in. Harmful and controlling cults like the Way International cause discomfort, pain, fear, sadness, frustration and even anger and resentment deep down inside of people who want to fit in – but there’s stuff in their life…in their personality…in their true self that does not conform to TWI’s ideology… …So to survive in the group and to insulate our authentic self from further harm, we adapt somehow – we bury those things and put on our ministry-face. We don’t speak the truth - instead we say what is acceptable…We don’t call a problem “a problem” we call it “an opportunity”. Thus our adaptive self enables us to get along in a challenging social environment like TWI with some success and with the least amount of conflict with others – but often at the expense of our authentic self going into hibernation... The longer you stay involved with TWI the more your authentic self gets buried under TWI’s values, goals, priorities, contrived interpersonal skills, beliefs, behaviors - all of which serves TWI more than your best interest...
. . .
In times past not fitting in meant death. You died. Not because of evil but because biology, individuals did not typically survive alone. We as a species are social or the species dies out. In times past, ostracism, cancel culture, was a death sentence. It was a way for the more socially inclined among us to commit violence without getting their hands dirty.
Think about The Way's attitude toward a fear of death. Ostracism is death. That's exactly what they practice. Join, or die.
That attack on your authentic self you must sacrifice to the super-ego-inner-critic, is like a death sentence. Isn't it?
TWI-believers who were never way corps often don’t get it when ex-way corps reveal the dark underbelly of the beast
Granted I was never Way Corps, but during my stint in FellowLaborers, I got a generous portion of the same stuff you guys had heaped on your plates. The nasty taste still lingers to this day.
Granted I was never Way Corps, but during my stint in FellowLaborers, I got a generous portion of the same stuff you guys had heaped on your plates. The nasty taste still lingers to this day.
I’m not familiar with the Fellow Laborers program…is it anything like the WOW program?
I figure with TWI it was all variations on a theme anyway…the theme being PFAL.
WOW program: TWI sends you with a few other strangers to Bum Fvck Egypt ; everyone works part time for living expenses so everyone can spend the majority of their “free time” trying to get a PFAL class together.
way corps program: TWI isolates you with a few other strangers on their reclusive campus in Bum Fvck Egypt; everyone works for free to maintain the property, but everyone also has sponsors pay for their food, lodging, and a Master of PFAL degree.
I’m not familiar with the Fellow Laborers program…is it anything like the WOW program?
(I'll try to be brief so as not to drag this too far astray.)
No, it was more similar to the Way Corps, but conducted at the state level. I think the original concept was to make it like satellite versions of the W.C. Many of the elements of the Corps were incorporated into FellowLaborers. It was in-residence "leadership training", intended to last for 2 years. We lived communally in a compound near the state limb headquarters and did support work at Limb HQ. The state limb leader was the presiding figure. It was an intense 24/7 commitment, complete with sleep deprivation, skimpy, group meals, no personal time and a lot of the other features associated with the Way Corps. There were approximately 50 of us and we lived 6 to an apartment. One big difference was that we were NOT allowed to have sponsors. We had to sponsor ourselves by working a fulltime job during the day and doing FellowLaborer work at night. In fact, one requirement (that often got winked at) was that we were also required to sponsor someone in the Corps. I presented a detailed description of FellowLaborer daily life when I started posting here in 2006. There have been a few other posters here from the Ohio program, as well as a couple other state programs. (Kentucky and California or Texas, I think, not really sure) One thing I can tell you is that "believers meetings ", 3 and 4 times a day, can lose their sparkle rather quickly, it you get my drift.
(I'll try to be brief so as not to drag this too far astray.)
No, it was more similar to the Way Corps, but conducted at the state level. I think the original concept was to make it like satellite versions of the W.C. Many of the elements of the Corps were incorporated into FellowLaborers. It was in-residence "leadership training", intended to last for 2 years. We lived communally in a compound near the state limb headquarters and did support work at Limb HQ. The state limb leader was the presiding figure. It was an intense 24/7 commitment, complete with sleep deprivation, skimpy, group meals, no personal time and a lot of the other features associated with the Way Corps. There were approximately 50 of us and we lived 6 to an apartment. One big difference was that we were NOT allowed to have sponsors. We had to sponsor ourselves by working a fulltime job during the day and doing FellowLaborer work at night. In fact, one requirement (that often got winked at) was that we were also required to sponsor someone in the Corps. I presented a detailed description of FellowLaborer daily life when I started posting here in 2006. There have been a few other posters here from the Ohio program, as well as a couple other state programs. (Kentucky and California or Texas, I think, not really sure) One thing I can tell you is that "believers meetings ", 3 and 4 times a day, can lose their sparkle rather quickly, it you get my drift.
Holy cow, Waysider !
I had no idea it was that intense! I’m glad I asked - thank you for sharing - sorry to make you dredge up those old memories
working a full time job AND doing an in-residence training program - I think you may have had it worse than me…my heart goes out to you, Waysider.
Meh. After 45 years or so, it's more like watching reruns of an old B-movie. You know the scenes are supposed to be scary but you laugh at them anyway. Like that time you were a kid and tried to do some insane bicycle trick that ended up costing you a bunch of stitches or a broken bone. Thinking about it just makes you chuckle about how naiive you must have been.
Christ said greater works than these shall ye do, and those that believe will speak with new tongues, lay hands on the sick and healing etc. All possible because of Christ in each believer, the sacred secret revealed to Paul, transliterated in the New Testament as "mystery" which is bringing a word from one language into another without translation. The Musterion in Greek means sacred or divine secrets. In the Greek culture there were two types of secrets, kruptos, concealed private matters, and Musterion. when you joined a religious group their sacred or divine secrets were revealed to you as you were initiated into and grew in understanding etc.
God, the holy spirit and Paul chose to use the word musterion, as we are supposed to grow in understanding these sacred secrets that were hidden in God and revealed to the Apostle Paul directly by Jesus Christ. Jesus only revealed musterion once to his disciples in the Gospels period as was necessary, but hidden from the masses; Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery (musterion; sacred or divine secret) of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Christ in each believer spiritually makes all nine manifestations available to every believer by faith, and dependent upon desire to manifest them. All 27 usages are important in context, and are the core and essence of Paul's ministry, the significance of which was lost due to all Asia turning away from Paul, the subsequent centuries of corruption starting with Constantine in 325 AD at Council of Nicea when Jesus was declared the 2nd God, in 381 AD when the holy spirit was declared to be the 3rd God at council of Constatinoble, and the Catholic church and lack of understanding of the manifestations thereby and the translators adding the words gifts when not in the texts causing more misunderstandings and confusion. The manifestations are to be operated in the love of God, with no out of order stuff like everyone speaking in tongues, Kundalini spirits etc. should not be entertained whatsoever. There are sacred secrets of God and sacred secrets of the wicked, mystery of Babylon, musterion of iniquity. The other side are initiated by demons and fallen angels into sorcery/witchcraft, Satanic revelation etc. to Steal, kill and destroy and oppose the purposes and will of God. They are dedicated and are rewarded with riches, fame, and demonic powers and believe they will rule with Lucifer in the New World Order (actually The Lake of Fire). Satan lies to his own children.
The fools that don't believe in the existence of the spiritual truths and ongoing warfare and powers on both sides, of two gods, dichotomy of the spiritual do not have a clue of what is really going on. The wicked create the wars, plagues and chaos in society, as the globalists want to and are committing genocide as they intent to kill 7 billion, 250 million people as they state on the Georgia Guide Stones, to have the population at around 500 million. Idiots deny the multitude of semi-secret and secret wicked musterion societies of the wicked; Skull and Bones, Council On Foriegn Relations, Masonic organizations, numerous Satanic and Luciferian worship groups, Communism etc. etc. The infiltration of churches, education, governments and the international organizations and control by the house of Rothschild of their central banks, about 125 or so, with only Iran, China, Pakistan and North Korea not being in their private hands.
I am currently reading Project Soul Catcher, a Book about CIA mind control programs and techniques by Robert Duncan, a scientist who was involved in research in these programs and a victim of mind control. He uses "declassified" documents and information. I am about halfway through the book, and I have lost count of the number of mind control projects and mind control techniques. The technology is so advanced that it is astounding, the degree of evil that the CIA is involved in. The KGB and Chinese Communists etc. have/had their brain washing/mind control programs also. This is not "make believe or fantasy or delusions, these programs exist and the invasion of the sanctity of the mind and free will are a disgrace and totally evil. Now you don't have to have a real demon, you can have an "artificial demon voice" sort of speak, courtesy of the CIA etc.
Different frequencies can be used to project live voice or recorded audio into a targeted subjects mind to even mimic the voice of God, what the CIA calls "The Voice of God Weapons." The book actually states that even though religious people can and are targeted, that a strong religious conviction can also be a defense against these attacks.
But one example from the Book, page 138: "During rapid fire interrogation techniques, the person is visited by four fallen angels or demons. In summary, if the psychic assassin fails to kill their targets, the target is saved by God's angels,; they are usual Michael or Gabriel in the CIA's scripts for Christian faith subjects. Then basically they are menticized into complacency and zombification," Perhaps some of you with unbelief in God's manifestations "have been zombified?" That is tongue in cheek type comment, but who knows?
This book is not easy reading, even though I have trained myself to read dark materials of the other side and still be able to sleep at night, but I recommend it as it is necessary to know the difference between not only God and Satan, but true inspiration from God and possible implanted by electronic warfare. CIA cannot do healing, only torture and mind control. They cannot do miracles such as I witnessed of the crippled walking, or other miracles I have seen delivered by the true God, such as my facing the 2015 Valley Fire with 2 volcanic-like fires about 600 ft. high, one on the left side of the mountain ridge I live below and the other on the right side. By speaking in tongues and working of miracles and faith, these two huge flames retreated within about 3-4 seconds of praying in tongues, and 3 more small areas of starting fires below the ridge were also dissolved in about the same time of praying for those areas in tongues and they dissolved. The rain came which many people as well as me were praying for, which pounded on my swamp cooler for 9 hours straight, which enabled the Fire Dept to take control of the fire and eventually put it out. There is an oasis around my house because of God's deliverance. Even the Fire Dept knows there were miracles in that fire. Other people also saw miracles occur in other areas close by me, including another believer never associated with The Way who is a friend of mine.
So you those of little faith, or those Zombified, take a lesson here!
Colossians 1:26-27 (KJV)
26Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery (musterion) among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
G3466 (Mounce)
μυστήριον
mystērion
28x: a matter to the knowledge of which initiation is necessary; a secret which would remain such but for revelation, Mat 3:11; Rom 11:25; Col 1:26; a concealed power or principle, 2Th 2:7; a hidden meaning of a symbol, Rev 1:20; Rev 17:7.
G3466 (Strong)
μυστήριον
mustērion
moos-tay'-ree-on
From a derivative of μύωmuō (to shut the mouth); a secret or “mystery” (through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites): - mystery.
I had 3 PCR tests required before some surgeries. These substances as above damage the mucus membranes defense against viruses etc. and some of the substances can go into the brain and cause damage including calcification of the Penile gland, that is supposed to be the gland that revelation comes into according to some Western and Eastern beliefs etc. I became concerned again, as I remembered from years ago information about the Penile Gland and its calcification, preventing its proper functioning.
Irrigardless, we don't need any damage to our brains. I wondered about it, then decided, I can still SIT, and I have a connection with God still. I am praying for hedge of protection and healing just in case though. The diabolical agents of evil are ever at it. God help us!
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Twinky
I can go along with you on this. I was at a fellowship (long past my TWI days, but it was reformed ex-Wayfers who'd walked away from TWI doctrines). This was 20 years ago, I don't remember all th
Twinky
Now that's an insult to potatoes! ("Slug" is what I've always thought.) I endured two years of in-rez "training" under his leadership. Sure, it was just after the "fog years" and he was working
Rocky
The Way, in general, and certainly Loy in particular, looked at it all as a war. To say Martindale was unbalanced was/is a massive understatement.
Rocky
No. I said: "I don't believe..." that's an "I" statement. It stands in stark contrast to the fact that I did not declare that such things are not possible. I also believe I'm neither qualified to evaluate your claims about your experience nor am I qualified to make any such declaration about what God has made or would make available.
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Mark Sanguinetti
A very good example of that no human is perfect, especially regarding his actions in his worldly life with the devil being the God of this world with sometimes deception for humanity. Only Jesus Christ is the perfect Son of man. And He was and is the only perfect man in his earthly life. Hopefully we can at least improve in our spiritual knowledge and actions through God, his Son Jesus Christ who has given his followers the Holy Spirit as a spiritual connection with God and Jesus Christ as a gift.
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Bolshevik
You seem more defensive than I was expecting. Your response about the flu doesn't seem as clear as I hoped. The language used it very familiar to me however. I am just stating your response seems like a non-answer. It's an unclear action promising an unclear outcome.
As far as ice cream, extraordinary claims require extraordinary scoops.
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James French
" It's an unclear action promising an unclear outcome. "
NO! Its not unclear at all. God stopped that street person from attacking me at exactly 6 ft. as I had prayed previously because I moved to a rough city to go to college when a College Ambassador. This was God and I, not Wierwille or anyone else. Your response is not taking the simplicity and believing me. You doubters are basically calling me a liar and God a liar, as His word promises the manifestations which are evident both in the scriptures and in life if you only believe; including all 9, as God is not a respector of persons. Why do you call yourself Bolshevik, as the Bolsheviks were the original communists in the Russian revolution of 1917 as Marx and Engels were inspired by Lucifer to write the Communist Manifesto which has resulted in hundreds of millions of human deaths?
Of course you have a "right" to call yourself whatever you like? Why Not "Working for Lucifer," you might as well? Tell us pratell, why, and be as clear as possible why. What would motivate someone that was involved in the Bible and formerly with any organization that was teaching some Biblical principles though corrupt to some extent, want to parade around here with such an Evil name. Would you choose Charlie Manson? Are you a communist? I hate communism and dislike commies, they destroy civilization and bring in every foul spirit; Communism followed by lying, stealing, murder, mayhem etc. Nothing any true Christian should or would be involved in? Did the Way damage you to such an extent that you turned to communism?
I have studied a lot of history including extensive study of communism and I read all of the Gulag series of books.
I am not being defensive, I am being offensive for the gospels sake and the truth, NOT WAY TRUTH. I have all the materials in my library of the PFAL etc., but I haven't looked at it for decades...
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waysider
Ya know, you could tell me that the moon was made of green cheese and it wouldn't make me dislike you. I just wouldn't believe you.
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James French
Well, a person could raise the dead literally in front of some people and they would not believe. Just speaking in languages not learned nor "made up or faked like T-Bone did, was enough for me. I wouldn't waste my time with some Tom Foolery thing. Well, everybody is going to give an account for their life. It would take a lot more than LCM. VPW to destroy my faith and experiences that I saw. Others have seen and done miracles also. Well, these are the end times, many fools think Biden is doing a great job, destroying everything...
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WordWolf
I've experienced revelation. My experiences often predated hearing what vpw had to say on the subject. I suspect his understanding was SHALLOW because it was based entirely on what OTHER people understood and taught, rather than his own work or his own experience. (So, yes, when he claimed to go to the racetrack and pick all the winners by revelation but didn't put ANY money down, not even on the last race, I'm calling that a lie and him the liar that lied. When he claimed that, the same day at the same racetrack, that God showed him who was saved and "seed of the serpent" and vpw went up and addressed them, I'm calling that another lie and him the liar that lied.)
Technically speaking, some of it lined up with what I later heard from him- since he was parroting what other, more learned men had learned. I didn't learn it from him, my experiences didn't follow doing things his way, but my experiences didn't contradict some of what he said (nor vice versa.) I give him no credit for it, but I also don't discount my experiences- some of which was bought painfully.
It sounded to me like you were dismissing all modern revelation categorically. If so, I disagree and would be hard to convince otherwise. If not, I think I'm not the only one who thought that's what you meant.
BTW, in other news,
NO POLITICS, please, by ANY posters.
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T-Bone
Take note – I’m responding to a couple of posts
James French on Feb 18th said:
At an event in Oakland in 1979 VPW was about a yard away from me in his 3 piece white suit. I was shocked, I discerned by holy spirit that he was "Loaded" with demons. I didn't say one word to him. Only a few other times have I spiritually sensed such intense what I call "demon density." A close friend of mine who was in The Way had a similar discerning of VPW's spirits at another time and place.
All the garbage about Advanced class grads and Way Corps and how sharp they were supposed to be etc. and yet I sensed this before I had the advanced class. Holy spirit is not dependent on Way classes. I stayed in the Way for the fellowship and took the advanced class in 84. I grinned and bared it until 1987 when masses left including me. I am glad I had the Way experience, some of the best and worst people I met in the Way. Lucifer Con Martindale (Loy) was the worst in my opinion. I asked Way Corps Grad Phil Sebastian before he passed away, who knew LCM very well if he remembered Martindale ever operating the love of God? He said "Not that I can recall." Neither can I. I never liked LCM spiritually nor his demeanor.
~ ~ ~ ~
T-Bone’s reply to that:
I am curious on how you “discerned by holy spirit that he was "Loaded" with demons”.
Exactly HOW did you perceive that?
And HOW were you able to quantify “loaded”?
And just as critical – did you IDENTIFY all the demons?
Sorry to rain on your parade, but all that pretentious spiritualism, self-righteous grandstanding and moral posturing you do is not necessary to figure out what was wrong with harmful and controlling cult-leaders like wierwille and martindale. The good Lord gave us Scripture and if folks would have made good use of cognitive skills and intuition, they would have accurately DISCERNED what ravenous wolves and false teachers these bozos were!
Unfortunately, most of us here on Grease Spot had to learn that lesson the hard way – meaning we learned by experiencing the consequences of making mistakes – like foolishly following a cult-leader’s methods of solving problems and making decisions. There’s the lazy way of ostracizing someone who disagrees with a cult-leader…or who has been victimized by a cult-leader - so the cult-leader labels them possessed. The way to escape this nonsense is to think outside the cult’s ideological box.
There’s some interesting reading by ex-TWI followers – if you haven’t read these yet – you should! If you have read them – you should reread them again! And take note of how they HONESTLY looked at Scripture, made good use of cognitive skills and intuition to accurately DISCERN what ravenous wolves and false teachers these bozos are - and not only that – they had the courage to put it in writing and get the word out to others! Here tis:
Undertow: My Escape from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International by Charlene Edge on Grease Spot, Charlene goes by the name Penworks.
The Cult That Snapped: A Journey Into The Way International by Karl Kahler
Losing the Way: A Memoir of Spiritual Longing, Manipulation, Abuse, and Escape by Kristen Skedgell
Was YOUR “discerning of spirits” able to catch the lying and stealing of an unabashed and incompetent plagiarist like wierwille? It’s silly to display such false bravado in “operating the nine manifestations” when it’s the same shtick of wierwille – a hodge-podge of twisted Scripture, ideas he stole from others and usually made worse by his incompetent “reworking of it” to suit his agenda…
FYI James French...you’ve been had! You were “taught” how to “spiritually profile” by the number one suspect in spiritual abuse!
Maybe you should consider reevaluating YOUR methods. They seem to follow the same obfuscating and manipulative tactics that made wierwille and martindale so harmful and controlling. It smacks of us-versus-them mentality, black-and-white thinking (aka all-or-nothing thinking or “splitting”) and malicious labeling.
Harmful and controlling cult-leaders like wierwille and martindale would often polarize social relationships as well as doctrine in order to divide people into two sharply contrasting groups or sets of opinions or beliefs – and then pressure…bully people to choose a side – you’re either on THEIR side – the “rightly-divided Word” side…God’s side or you’re on the wrong side. If you disagree with THEM – then it means YOU’RE the one who is deceived – tricked by the devil…or got possessed…these creepy cult-leaders motivate by fear of the boogieman - Satan, demons, or the fictitious wrong-seed boys and girls – what a twisted and sick doctrine but oh so convenient for manipulating followers by fear…I remember wierwille in several big meetings open to the public declare that in order for someone to really believe in the Trinity they’d have to be possessed…wow - I remember something Jesus said in John 13:35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another. ...wierwille didn't exemplify Jesus' teaching now did he?
= = = = =
James French said on February 27th:
My General comments: My experiences are true, not caused by mental illness, delusion etc. Just because you have not experienced something, especially of a spiritual nature as referenced in the scriptures does not mean I and others have not experienced them and are not true. If you never ate an ice cream cone with vanilla ice cream with sprinkels on top, does not mean they do not exist…
Regarding T-Bones statements; You faked SIT. This brings into question your credibility, as well as your inability to manifest anything other than a pimple perhaps?
My beliefs are not based on PFAL, but on scriptures, God teaching me and my experiences which I have learned from. Some things in PFAL are true, others not so. Way Ministry was a mixture of good and bad. It and the people were not all good or bad. Christ in each believer is true, according to both scripture and MY EXPERIENCES. GOD is my witness also as well as me. Also others have seen, such as the woman walking for the first time in seven years. I witnessed it. You did not. If I saw a bank robbery, and the bank was actually robbed, would you say the bank was not robbed? You apparently have not seen much, and that is sad considering all the areas you served in with the Way?
~ ~ ~ ~
T-Bone’s reply to that:
Please review what I said in my Feb 24th post: “I have ZERO experience in discerning of spirits or any other of the “manifestations” as taught by wierwille”.
what makes you think what wierwille taught about them is correct?
what? is that YOUR litmus test for real Christians - if they line up with your charismatic caricature of Christianity.
And my statement does NOT mean I have no experience in using spiritual abilities. what? we're all supposed to go around bragging about "operating all 9 all the time"? PAAALEEEEZE give me a break.
Please check out other chapters in the New Testament – there’s a lot more spiritual abilities than just your precious 9 manifestations. Please read my previous posts
Here
earlier on this thread – where I point out some grave errors in logic and ignoring Greek syntax by wierwille’s handling of I Corinthians 12 and 14 – a manifestation is a detailed disclosure of the Spirit – ONE OF the MANY WAYS the Holy Spirit makes Himself known is through believers using their spiritual gifts..…I find your attempts at one-upmanship very silly and immature. Your attitude of spiritual elitism is underwhelming – but maybe it impresses the people you hang out with – it doesn’t bother me – though I will call your bluff on it when you pull that bull$hit with me.
You seem to think that what wierwille taught is the gold standard…what’s really puzzling to me is that you “discerned” wierwille was loaded with demons in 1979 and YOU STUCK AROUND ANYWAY – and EVEN LATER TOOK THE ADVANCED CLASS in 1984! And you even “grinned and bared it until 1987 when masses left " ... And that’s really why it’s hard to believe anything you say…
Does it ever bother your conscience that you KNEW he was loaded with demons and yet you stuck around for some 8 more years anyway?
Did you still abundantly share of your money to TWI during that time?
Did you endorse TWI to anyone you worked with or witnessed to during that time?
Did you get anyone to take PFAL during that time?
Does it ever bother your conscience that you KNEW he was loaded with demons and YET you facilitated him and his load of demons to abuse Christians anyway?
Careful how you answer those questions - they could nab you for aiding and abetting a pathological lying, malignant narcissist, sexual predator...and another count for aiding and abetting his load of demons.
This one statement of yours is really interesting: “If I saw a bank robbery, and the bank was actually robbed, would you say the bank was not robbed? You apparently have not seen much, and that is sad considering all the areas you served in with the Way?”
If an ACTUAL bank robbery did occur – there’s going to be perpetrators, evidence, video recordings, victims, and witnesses. I have over 40 years of technical experience in the security industry and have worked with police departments, private security, the FBI and bank managers, and have even testified in court as an expert witness. So, you can drop your stupid hypothetical situation. I know what it takes to prove something happened. Where’s the proof of your miraculous adventures? You’re just some person on the internet with an avatar named James French. What are YOU trying to prove? The more you pontificate and claim you’re so spiritual the more you weaken your case.
Did YOUR discerning of spirits detect any lying spirits in wierwille?
Wanna know how I found out wierwille was a pathological liar?
The old fashion way – using cognitive skills and intuition.
I left TWI in 1986 during the power-grabs and spiritualizing. Besides all the red flags I had been ignoring for 12 years of TWI-involvement there was also a growing sense of sense of disillusionment derived from the failure of wierwille/PFAL/the Advanced Class/the WOW program/the way corps program to fulfill their declared goals – and also my perception of inconsistencies between the actions of certain TWI-leaders and the ideals they supposedly represent…A criterion that wierwille used at the beginning of the PFAL class kept popping up in my head. He was reading from John 10:10 “The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly” and then he said either Jesus lied to us here or he told the truth. If he lied to us here – then we ought to chuck the whole thing away – because, he reasoned, if the Bible is not trustworthy there it’s not trustworthy anywhere else so why waste your time…and now ironically, I found myself gravitating toward the same criterion – if I could find some serious falsehoods about wierwille and his teachings – then that would be a good reason to review and reevaluate everything.
As a matter of fact, I kinda used that thinking to explain why I was putting my relationship with TWI on hold. To my upper leadership and all the believers in my area I was clear and concise in expressing the reason for my resignation from any TWI-responsibilities (at the time my way corps assignment I was overseeing all the TWI-fellowships of an area about the size of three mid-sized cities) . In all my communications I would refer to I Thessalonians 5:21 “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good”.
Exhibit A:
In the authorized book on TWI, titled “The Way Living in Love” (by Elena S. Whiteside, co 1972, American Christian Press, Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 72-89132), on page 175, Whiteside quotes wierwille as he talked about his studies and influences:
“I don’t remember much of the past. I’ll have to renew my mind. Oh yes, did I tell you I taught at Gordon Divinity School? Homiletics was my specialty – that’s preaching. I took everything I could take at the Moody Bible Institute too, through their correspondence courses.
And in the years that followed, there were many men I learned from: Glenn Clark, Karl Barth from Switzerland, E. Stanley Jones, Paul Tillich, Starr Daily, Rufus Mosley, Dr. John Gaynor Banks, and there were many, many others. I tried to get all I could from anybody.”
I focused on what wierwille said about his education. In early June of 1987, I contacted The Moody Correspondence School Department of the Moody Bible Institute and spoke with Vivian Ruby in the Registrar’s Office. I was stunned to find out they had no record of wierwille completing a course with them. I couldn’t believe it. I didn’t want to believe it. I had to have something more tangible than a woman’s voice over the phone telling me that in effect wierwille lied about something in his education. I asked her to mail me that information in a letter with Moody Correspondence School’s official letterhead…so here is
Exhibit B: the letter reads as follows:
June 29, 1987
To whom it may concern,
This is to verify that Victor Wierwille did not complete a course with us. This is not to say that he didn’t purchase a course from us but that he did not complete one. We do not keep records for courses that are not complete for more than 10 years.
Sincerely,
Vivian Ruby
Registrar’s Office
~ ~ ~ ~
I have that letter on file in my Grease Spot profile album – and it’s here
Even if you want to give wierwille the benefit of a doubt and suggest he may have purchased a bunch of courses but did not complete them – I would say that’s doubtful – it still doesn’t agree with what he said, “I took everything I could take at the Moody Bible Institute too, through their correspondence courses.” Even if he purchased ten classes but didn’t complete any of them – how could he say he took everything Moody Bible Institute Correspondence School had to offer? He made a vague and misleading statement. Needless to say, my "investigation" really picked up steam after I held that letter in my hand.
~ ~ ~ ~
James French said:
…”That is testimonial about lack of faith and the apostasy in general of the Christian Body of Christ, the Church as foretold in scripture in these end times we are in that such would be the case; APOSTASY, MEANING A FALLING AWAY FROM GOD. The Jews returned to Israel as foretold in scripture after a very long time. We are in the end times. I suggest you doubters and unbelievers of God's 9 manifestations and any other doubts and non-beliefs of the Bible go humbly back to God and ask Him to help you "See the light, not from a Way dogma, but from God's spirit if it is in you, and if not get it, and believe God and manifest and not fake the manifestations.”
~ ~ ~ ~
T-Bone’s reply to that:
Hey, great discernment there – “That is testimonial about lack of faith and the apostasy in general of the Christian Body of Christ” said one former cult-follower to another former cult-follower about the same pseudo-Christian harmful and controlling cult they both use to belong to.
Speaking of light – Jesus Christ mentioned a really weird predicament about people who ASSUME they have the light – but if what they ASSUME is light is ACTUALLY DARKNESS, how great and terrible is that darkness! Matthew 6:23
sorry to burst your bubble of self-righteousness…but let’s put things in perspective…after 12 years of being indoctrinated…brainwashed…I gradually came to my senses and realized I faked speaking in tongues in session 12 of PFAL…but at the time – I didn’t KNOWINGLY do that…I literally followed wierwille’s instructions to move my lips, tongue and mouth…it felt just like when I faked foreign languages joking around in high school…we’re talking about some 48 years ago…what did I have for breakfast that morning?...it’s possible I thought wow I must have been speaking in tongues all those times in high school when I was fooling around…maybe I was SITing…I never recorded my schtick in high school or my speaking in tongues in TWI – if I did I could have brought that to a professional linguist for analysis – and could then find out if either was genuine of fake…at least I’m honest and not putting on airs I’m “operating all nine all the time”.
…But you know, I served TWI with a clear conscience…I never committed adultery. I never sexually molested anyone…I never stole anyone’s money or belongings… …now remember we’re still putting things in perspective…I’m just flabbergasted you harp on me faking SIT and yet YOU turned a blind eye to whatever a cult-leader like wierwille was doing - and who by the way you also claimed was loaded with demons - you turned a blind eye to all that for 8 years! I dunno...something doesn't add up...something about your story sounds fishy to me.
Wierwille was an unabashed plagiarist…that means he stole and lied…a lot…isn’t there stuff in the Bible that says we’re not supposed to do that? He was a known sexual predator, an adulterer…isn’t there stuff in the Bible about how bad that is? Well…if you ever decide to get off your high horse and read – or reread those three books I listed above – maybe you’ll be able to recalibrate your scale of values to the simple honest principles of The Bible.
well...that's all for now - have a good evening
Edited by T-Bonediscerning of editors or is it editors who are discerning
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Bolshevik
I was in college taking a history course when I signed up on this site. The textbook was opened up to a section on "bolsheviks". At the time it was just a word to me with no meaning whatsoever.
Later I became interested in the psychology of totalitarian rulers. So the word reminds me of that.
It's interesting how things and words take on meaning over time, ain't it?
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Mark Sanguinetti
The main thing that the devil with demons, which in my mind I call spiritual ants, tries to do with Christians or followers of Jesus Christ is try to speak to them with the primary purpose of deception. This is seen in scriptures from the bible. This is first read in Genesis chapter 3 with the devil figuratively called a serpent.
The devil, that I figuratively call the chief spiritual ant, even tried to speak to Jesus Christ at the start of His ministry to even try to deceive Him. This is read in Matthew, Mark and Luke from this informative and scriptural web site.
https://www.biblestudytools.com/bible-stories/temptation-of-jesus-bible-story.html
Yes, this is not a perfect age with the devil and demons not yet put in prison, which is where they belong. The start of this is the thousand year period as read in Revelation chapter 20. I cover this with detail in chapter 15 of my biblical teaching book. Our Loving Savior Jesus Christ
Edited by Mark SanguinettiLink to comment
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Rocky
I used an "I" statement. I believe. I don't believe. That is in stark contrast to declaring it's not available at all.
It would be tedious for me and for readers for me to spell out what I believe about what IS available.
Briefly (hopefully), rain falls on the just and the unjust. I'm not sure that everything humans receive by what we learned from TWI constitutes revelation necessarily is limited to what God plants in our brains/minds/consciousness because we are in the household of God, or even that we are born-again Christians. Things happen. In order for us to know it is revelation from God as we were taught (from the Bible), does that mean anyone who gets anything intuitively who is not a believer must have gotten that revelation from the devil? I no longer subscribe to that version of what constitutes good vs evil. A lot of what occurred in TWIs history was evil.
Thanks for bringing it up again.
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Rocky
Btw, that's one reason I used an "I" statement. I do appreciate that you ended your sentence with a question mark. You apparently were asking me for clarification. To clarify (whether you were asking or not), your testimonial is YOUR testimonial. I have no right to say your testimonial is untrue. That's why I wasn't doing so.
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Twinky
I can go along with you on this.
I was at a fellowship (long past my TWI days, but it was reformed ex-Wayfers who'd walked away from TWI doctrines). This was 20 years ago, I don't remember all the details.
An older man attended. He had walked with sticks or crutches or some such (not in a wheelchair) for many years - the fellowship leader took him quietly aside into the kitchen with 1 or 2 other witnesses, prayed with him and held his hands as he took his first steps. A great shout of joy alerted all the rest of us to something amazing. Here was this man, walking, unaided, stumbling about in the kitchen. He then went outside (accompanied for safety by a couple of people) and spent an hour or more just walking around the little quiet road in which this fellowship took place, and getting better and better at balance, and walking. He was crying with joy.
I don't know about afterwards, as I didn't go there often. I saw this. It happened.
Who got the glory? God. The leader backed off and claimed no credit at all.
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waysider
Anybody remember ROA 1976 or 1977? VPW took to the stage at the closing and directed (from the stage) a healing/ministering event. Lots of "Lo Shanta"s, lots of laid on hands, lots of tears and emotion. I vividly remember it for several reasons which may be too personal to share. What I don't remember about it are tales of anyone coming away from it "healed".
Edited by waysidermissed a word/spelling
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Bolshevik
I've had to play along with people for long periods of time who believe they've been healed. It's obvious they are not and someone has to deal with reality. It's a living hell.
In this game of my beliefs are my beliefs and not yours, who pays the price?
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T-Bone
Stuff like that makes me wonder about the power of peer pressure…groupthink…and self-deception…
I wonder how many folks have been kidding themselves - by allowing a desire to fit in cloud their judgment.
…thinking again about how some die-hard PFAL-fans will get all up in arms when someone says they faked speaking in tongues just doesn’t realize the amount of pressure that harmful and controlling cults exert on followers to conform…the “norm” is everyone MUST speak in tongues at the end of session 12 or else they’re subjected to a type of Spanish-Inquisition-process in another room…armed with the intent of maintaining the orthodoxy of PFAL, whoever is conducting this little addendum to session 12 MUST find out WHY the person didn’t speak in tongues…”what’s stopping them from doing it? Are they even born again? Did they commit the unforgiveable sin? Do they have a demon of fear holding them back?”
Imagine how nerve-racking this can be – not just for the person who failed to “manifest” but the worry and fear in the mind of the “experienced” grad knowing that if this person doesn’t “manifest” – then THEY will have to report back to their leadership with all the details and then they are subjected to some next-level-$hit-Spanish-Inquisition – in order to maintain the orthodoxy of PFAL – “somebody has to be blamed for the failure cuz there’s nothing wrong with PFAL”…That’s just the start of the road to indoctrination…other items will come up depending on the whim or behest of a harmful and controlling cult-leader…like martindale’s homo-purge.
We are social creatures and have a natural desire to fit in. Harmful and controlling cults like the Way International cause discomfort, pain, fear, sadness, frustration and even anger and resentment deep down inside of people who want to fit in – but there’s stuff in their life…in their personality…in their true self that does not conform to TWI’s ideology… …So to survive in the group and to insulate our authentic self from further harm, we adapt somehow – we bury those things and put on our ministry-face. We don’t speak the truth - instead we say what is acceptable…We don’t call a problem “a problem” we call it “an opportunity”. Thus our adaptive self enables us to get along in a challenging social environment like TWI with some success and with the least amount of conflict with others – but often at the expense of our authentic self going into hibernation... The longer you stay involved with TWI the more your authentic self gets buried under TWI’s values, goals, priorities, contrived interpersonal skills, beliefs, behaviors - all of which serves TWI more than your best interest...
What wierwille taught is the real you – was actually more along the lines of The Stepford Wives. As a tyrant with delusions of grandeur, wierwille was a proponent of the ideal believer always being servile... compliant... submissive... a spineless person endowed with an almost robot-like ability to suppress emotions, ignore sensory input, and turn off logical subroutines…all the while happily conforming to groupthink. Basically it’s the dehumanizing effect of a cult-leader’s malignant narcissism.
Harmful and controlling cults wage a continuous silent war on one’s personhood – and one of the major casualties of these attacks is a type of identity crisis. Some folks might tend to question themselves a lot…most lack the confidence in their own thinking process… we were taught to always check with leadership before making any big decisions… Self-awareness is a conscious knowledge of our true character, true feelings, personal preferences, deep-down motives, and desires. However, this may be difficult to perceive through that translucent overlay of TWI’s social identity “bestowed” on followers. It’s like wearing frosted glasses and looking at your own reflection in the mirror…details are diffused …individual features are not clear.
Out of necessity we indulge in self-deception to feel comfortable.
Self-deception is a process of denying or rationalizing away the relevance, significance, or importance of opposing evidence and logical argument. Self-deception involves convincing oneself of a truth (or lack of truth) so that one does not reveal any self-knowledge of the deception.
from Wikipedia
We deceive ourselves because we don’t have enough psychological strength to admit the truth and deal with the consequences that will follow. (clinical psychologist Cortney S. Warren Ph.D)
TWI-believers who were never way corps often don’t get it when ex-way corps reveal the dark underbelly of the beast. They might think we’re weak...stupid...not very spiritual... …surely there can’t be anything wrong with a malignant narcissist/sexual predator/pathological liar who created the way corps program based on the gold standard of truth – PFAL.
Edited by T-Bonetypos are either mistakes or else the rest of the post is wrong
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Bolshevik
In times past not fitting in meant death. You died. Not because of evil but because biology, individuals did not typically survive alone. We as a species are social or the species dies out. In times past, ostracism, cancel culture, was a death sentence. It was a way for the more socially inclined among us to commit violence without getting their hands dirty.
Think about The Way's attitude toward a fear of death. Ostracism is death. That's exactly what they practice. Join, or die.
That attack on your authentic self you must sacrifice to the super-ego-inner-critic, is like a death sentence. Isn't it?
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waysider
Granted I was never Way Corps, but during my stint in FellowLaborers, I got a generous portion of the same stuff you guys had heaped on your plates. The nasty taste still lingers to this day.
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T-Bone
I’m not familiar with the Fellow Laborers program…is it anything like the WOW program?
I figure with TWI it was all variations on a theme anyway…the theme being PFAL.
WOW program: TWI sends you with a few other strangers to Bum Fvck Egypt ; everyone works part time for living expenses so everyone can spend the majority of their “free time” trying to get a PFAL class together.
way corps program: TWI isolates you with a few other strangers on their reclusive campus in Bum Fvck Egypt; everyone works for free to maintain the property, but everyone also has sponsors pay for their food, lodging, and a Master of PFAL degree.
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waysider
(I'll try to be brief so as not to drag this too far astray.)
No, it was more similar to the Way Corps, but conducted at the state level. I think the original concept was to make it like satellite versions of the W.C. Many of the elements of the Corps were incorporated into FellowLaborers. It was in-residence "leadership training", intended to last for 2 years. We lived communally in a compound near the state limb headquarters and did support work at Limb HQ. The state limb leader was the presiding figure. It was an intense 24/7 commitment, complete with sleep deprivation, skimpy, group meals, no personal time and a lot of the other features associated with the Way Corps. There were approximately 50 of us and we lived 6 to an apartment. One big difference was that we were NOT allowed to have sponsors. We had to sponsor ourselves by working a fulltime job during the day and doing FellowLaborer work at night. In fact, one requirement (that often got winked at) was that we were also required to sponsor someone in the Corps. I presented a detailed description of FellowLaborer daily life when I started posting here in 2006. There have been a few other posters here from the Ohio program, as well as a couple other state programs. (Kentucky and California or Texas, I think, not really sure) One thing I can tell you is that "believers meetings ", 3 and 4 times a day, can lose their sparkle rather quickly, it you get my drift.
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T-Bone
Holy cow, Waysider !
I had no idea it was that intense! I’m glad I asked - thank you for sharing - sorry to make you dredge up those old memories
working a full time job AND doing an in-residence training program - I think you may have had it worse than me…my heart goes out to you, Waysider.
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waysider
Meh. After 45 years or so, it's more like watching reruns of an old B-movie. You know the scenes are supposed to be scary but you laugh at them anyway. Like that time you were a kid and tried to do some insane bicycle trick that ended up costing you a bunch of stitches or a broken bone. Thinking about it just makes you chuckle about how naiive you must have been.
Thanks for your concern, though.
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James French
Christ said greater works than these shall ye do, and those that believe will speak with new tongues, lay hands on the sick and healing etc. All possible because of Christ in each believer, the sacred secret revealed to Paul, transliterated in the New Testament as "mystery" which is bringing a word from one language into another without translation. The Musterion in Greek means sacred or divine secrets. In the Greek culture there were two types of secrets, kruptos, concealed private matters, and Musterion. when you joined a religious group their sacred or divine secrets were revealed to you as you were initiated into and grew in understanding etc.
God, the holy spirit and Paul chose to use the word musterion, as we are supposed to grow in understanding these sacred secrets that were hidden in God and revealed to the Apostle Paul directly by Jesus Christ. Jesus only revealed musterion once to his disciples in the Gospels period as was necessary, but hidden from the masses; Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery (musterion; sacred or divine secret) of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Christ in each believer spiritually makes all nine manifestations available to every believer by faith, and dependent upon desire to manifest them. All 27 usages are important in context, and are the core and essence of Paul's ministry, the significance of which was lost due to all Asia turning away from Paul, the subsequent centuries of corruption starting with Constantine in 325 AD at Council of Nicea when Jesus was declared the 2nd God, in 381 AD when the holy spirit was declared to be the 3rd God at council of Constatinoble, and the Catholic church and lack of understanding of the manifestations thereby and the translators adding the words gifts when not in the texts causing more misunderstandings and confusion. The manifestations are to be operated in the love of God, with no out of order stuff like everyone speaking in tongues, Kundalini spirits etc. should not be entertained whatsoever. There are sacred secrets of God and sacred secrets of the wicked, mystery of Babylon, musterion of iniquity. The other side are initiated by demons and fallen angels into sorcery/witchcraft, Satanic revelation etc. to Steal, kill and destroy and oppose the purposes and will of God. They are dedicated and are rewarded with riches, fame, and demonic powers and believe they will rule with Lucifer in the New World Order (actually The Lake of Fire). Satan lies to his own children.
The fools that don't believe in the existence of the spiritual truths and ongoing warfare and powers on both sides, of two gods, dichotomy of the spiritual do not have a clue of what is really going on. The wicked create the wars, plagues and chaos in society, as the globalists want to and are committing genocide as they intent to kill 7 billion, 250 million people as they state on the Georgia Guide Stones, to have the population at around 500 million. Idiots deny the multitude of semi-secret and secret wicked musterion societies of the wicked; Skull and Bones, Council On Foriegn Relations, Masonic organizations, numerous Satanic and Luciferian worship groups, Communism etc. etc. The infiltration of churches, education, governments and the international organizations and control by the house of Rothschild of their central banks, about 125 or so, with only Iran, China, Pakistan and North Korea not being in their private hands.
I am currently reading Project Soul Catcher, a Book about CIA mind control programs and techniques by Robert Duncan, a scientist who was involved in research in these programs and a victim of mind control. He uses "declassified" documents and information. I am about halfway through the book, and I have lost count of the number of mind control projects and mind control techniques. The technology is so advanced that it is astounding, the degree of evil that the CIA is involved in. The KGB and Chinese Communists etc. have/had their brain washing/mind control programs also. This is not "make believe or fantasy or delusions, these programs exist and the invasion of the sanctity of the mind and free will are a disgrace and totally evil. Now you don't have to have a real demon, you can have an "artificial demon voice" sort of speak, courtesy of the CIA etc.
Different frequencies can be used to project live voice or recorded audio into a targeted subjects mind to even mimic the voice of God, what the CIA calls "The Voice of God Weapons." The book actually states that even though religious people can and are targeted, that a strong religious conviction can also be a defense against these attacks.
But one example from the Book, page 138: "During rapid fire interrogation techniques, the person is visited by four fallen angels or demons. In summary, if the psychic assassin fails to kill their targets, the target is saved by God's angels,; they are usual Michael or Gabriel in the CIA's scripts for Christian faith subjects. Then basically they are menticized into complacency and zombification," Perhaps some of you with unbelief in God's manifestations "have been zombified?" That is tongue in cheek type comment, but who knows?
This book is not easy reading, even though I have trained myself to read dark materials of the other side and still be able to sleep at night, but I recommend it as it is necessary to know the difference between not only God and Satan, but true inspiration from God and possible implanted by electronic warfare. CIA cannot do healing, only torture and mind control. They cannot do miracles such as I witnessed of the crippled walking, or other miracles I have seen delivered by the true God, such as my facing the 2015 Valley Fire with 2 volcanic-like fires about 600 ft. high, one on the left side of the mountain ridge I live below and the other on the right side. By speaking in tongues and working of miracles and faith, these two huge flames retreated within about 3-4 seconds of praying in tongues, and 3 more small areas of starting fires below the ridge were also dissolved in about the same time of praying for those areas in tongues and they dissolved. The rain came which many people as well as me were praying for, which pounded on my swamp cooler for 9 hours straight, which enabled the Fire Dept to take control of the fire and eventually put it out. There is an oasis around my house because of God's deliverance. Even the Fire Dept knows there were miracles in that fire. Other people also saw miracles occur in other areas close by me, including another believer never associated with The Way who is a friend of mine.
So you those of little faith, or those Zombified, take a lesson here!
Colossians 1:26-27 (KJV)
26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery (musterion) among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
G3466 (Mounce)
μυστήριον
mystērion
28x: a matter to the knowledge of which initiation is necessary; a secret which would remain such but for revelation, Mat 3:11; Rom 11:25; Col 1:26; a concealed power or principle, 2Th 2:7; a hidden meaning of a symbol, Rev 1:20; Rev 17:7.
G3466 (Strong)
μυστήριον
mustērion
moos-tay'-ree-on
From a derivative of μύω muō (to shut the mouth); a secret or “mystery” (through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites): - mystery.
Total KJV occurrences: 27
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James French
I had 3 PCR tests required before some surgeries. These substances as above damage the mucus membranes defense against viruses etc. and some of the substances can go into the brain and cause damage including calcification of the Penile gland, that is supposed to be the gland that revelation comes into according to some Western and Eastern beliefs etc. I became concerned again, as I remembered from years ago information about the Penile Gland and its calcification, preventing its proper functioning.
Irrigardless, we don't need any damage to our brains. I wondered about it, then decided, I can still SIT, and I have a connection with God still. I am praying for hedge of protection and healing just in case though. The diabolical agents of evil are ever at it. God help us!
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