He was as spiritually sharp as a potato, and just as intelligent in my opinion.
Now that's an insult to potatoes! ("Slug" is what I've always thought.)
I endured two years of in-rez "training" under his leadership. Sure, it was just after the "fog years" and he was working out his angst after the damage done by Chris Geer (a particularly nasty piece of work), but it was all yell, yell, yell. At Corps Nights, at lunchtimes, not quite so noisily at Sunday Night Services, but defo at prep for SNS; very little quiet time with him. On one occasion we were given permission to watch ??the superbowl? - not a thing I know anything about, not interested in (not an American), it was offered as an option not an order, so I did something else. Next day, everyone got a yellfest. If he suggested something, we ought to know to do it. We would learn something from it, and we would learn something about ... him. Cuz he was such a great player, or some such.
This business about gays: he ranted on about that lifestyle so very much. Several men were kicked out on this pretext while I was in rez. (One, I know, certainly didn't have any homo instincts (blushes)). You don't say what year the incident you reference took place. I'd assumed that his rants were linked in some way with his wife's affair with Rosie, but maybe his hatred of homosexuals predated that - maybe that's what drove his wife into Rosie's arms? I neither know nor care.
I emerged from my battering with TWI with a lot of emotional damage, years of hurt, and a loathing of homosexuals and their devilishness. I visited a city I didn't know and got badly lost. An obvious, camp, homosexual saw that I was struggling, offered help and walked me a couple of streets to an area where I could get to where I needed to go. Such kindness! I felt I'd never had such wanton kindness by TWI leadership. It was the start of dismantling that manufactured prejudice; pre-TWI homosexuality was not a thing I'd known anything about before. Glad to say that I go to a loving church now where everyone from anywhere is honestly welcome.
Bizarre, isn't it. We "learned" about "devil spirits" from leaders packing the biggest DS (or is that, BS?) that you could imagine. Big ones turning on little ones.
LCM and his nutsy ideas of "tough love" and protecting other people, pah! The crazy fool wouldn't know the love of God if it were the only thing left on the planet.
Thanks for the response, excellent thoughts. I am so thankful I never went into the Way Corps. I was a College Ambassador and I was the only one at both colleges I went to. I was the lone wolf, thank God. I had no one hounding me. I just cooperated with the leadership but did as I was inspired and pleased to do. I did learn a lot that year. Yeah, Loy Boy was really something. He never learned the verses 1Co 10:32Give no offense to Jews, or to Greeks, or to the church of God, 1Co 10:33just as I also please everyone in all things, not seeking my own profit, but the profit of the many, so that they might be saved.
I suspect Martindale may have forced his way into presidency as he was privy to VPW's transgressions as well as partaking in them? Why call The Way Corps the Way Corps? In War you want the Marine Corps. but in the Gospel you need God's Love manifested. He was always nasty, acting more like the "Seed of The Serpent" then a loving/kind Seed of Abraham. I remember one memorable visit he made to our local area and he reprooved everything, and as he was about to leave thank God, he said "next time I come back I will comb your hairs back" (implying reproof again). What if we did everything well? He predetermined to be a tyrant. He missed his calling, he should have been leader of the USSR!
The seed talker may have been a seed planted by the enemy? After all, practically all denominations and non-denominations have been infiltrated by the Jesuits and other "seed boys and girls." I never liked him spiritually. One picture I saw of him stood out to me, he looked weird, like almost albino like and it struck me spiritually. He should have "discerned himself." I remember when I had to take the test for the Advanced Class. He walked around like a hawk, hoping someone would be cheating it appeared. Unfortunately he taught the Advanced Class I took in 1984. VPW came and was very weak and sickly.
The new MOGFOT was worse than the old original MOGFOT. MOGFOT sounds like a demon's name, similar to MOT THE HOPPLE. I learned all about Lucifer and nothing about Christ through that creature. I always considered him the enemy? I dislike him as I dislike George Soros, Adolf Hitler and other "seed boys." He does not appear to have the nature and characteristics of someone born-again? Was, is he seed of the Serpent or just was/is loaded with demons? He was the one that sent John Schoenheit packing for merely writing about Adultery from a Biblical perspective without pointing a finger at anyone? Well, at least LCM didn't commit murder against him or anyone else that we know of? Thats in Loy's favor.
Very telling is the photograph I saw in The Way Magazine after Martindale was enthroned of his robes and hat surrounded by roped poles like they have in theater lobbies ON DISPLAY! As if he was a King or something? What pretentious ego and lack of any humility whatsoever. Well, that was craggy craig! Does anyone have a story of Lucifer Con Martindale being kind, compassionate and "Christ-like?" For fairness sake, please tell us?
Why call The Way Corps the Way Corps? In War you want the Marine Corps. but in the Gospel you need God's Love manifested. He was always nasty, acting more like the "Seed of The Serpent" then a loving/kind Seed of Abraham.
The Way, in general, and certainly Loy in particular, looked at it all as a war. To say Martindale was unbalanced was/is a massive understatement.
The short of it is that lcm was recruited in college. He was young and naive, and wanted answers. vpw conned him completely. lcm became incredibly loyal to him, and vpw slowly turned him into two-fold the child of heck that he himself was. Part of that was that vpw KNEW he was running a con, so he knew when to shut up and hide things. He'd covinced lcm all of it was of God, so lcm was fully sincere and thought he was doing the right thing when he copied vpw's harmful things. Like the student of a Pharisee who was made two-fold the child of heck his teacher was, so was lcm.
When asked privately why vpw hand-picked lcm, vpw said it was because lcm never questioned him he always did what vpw told him to do. vpw had 2 men rabidly loyal to him- l craig martindale and chris geer. lcm sounded like a normal jock who was a Christian once upon a time, but vpw basically destroyed the man he was. In one of life's little twists, as soon as lcm was enthroned, he tossed vpw aside and thought every thought that flittered through his own head was Divine Revelation and vpw's was yesterday's news.
There's a number of threads about him. Here's one. "Who was L Craig Martindale?"
I did meet Craig Martindale once at the rock of ages in New Knoxville, Ohio. This after I finished as a WOW ambassador in perhaps 1984. I think we were peaceful with each other. But then about 2 or 3 years later I saw the problem with the hierarchy of the leaders of the Way ministry to take the place of the Lordship of Jesus Christ. This hierarchy included Craig Martindale and to let the Way ministry know about this errant problem I wrote a letter with biblical information and mailed it to their office in Ohio. I forget whether or not I got a letter and a response back from them, but perhaps I did. I think they knew it would be very difficult for them to oppose me on this subject of the Lordship of Jesus Christ Contrasting the Lordship of Imperfect Man. Soon after this I wrote the first copy or draft of this biblical teaching article or today one of the chapters of my biblical teaching book. I sent this first copy in the late 1980s to a number of Way ministry people.
The short of it is that lcm was recruited in college. He was young and naive, and wanted answers. vpw conned him completely. lcm became incredibly loyal to him, and vpw slowly turned him into two-fold the child of heck that he himself was. Part of that was that vpw KNEW he was running a con, so he knew when to shut up and hide things. He'd covinced lcm all of it was of God, so lcm was fully sincere and thought he was doing the right thing when he copied vpw's harmful things. Like the student of a Pharisee who was made two-fold the child of heck his teacher was, so was lcm.
I feel it's easier to arm-chair diagnose VPW. . . . I'm guessing LCM developed some sort of complex with El Profesor. He doesn't sound to have a very diverse set of behaviors. Like his mind is in the movie Groundhog's Day.
Animals have some sort of instinct that allows them to sense if someone is intent on harming them or doing something they at least perceive as harm. (If you don't believe me, try putting an asthma mask on a cat sometime.) I think humans also have a sense that something may not be quite right. We are, after all, in the least common denominator, animals as well. Maybe that's what it is when we supposedly discern "devil spirits". One huge problem, though, is that we were actively taught to ignore these intuitions because, you know, something, something, natural man, something.
Well, cutting to the chase here, this presents a huge dilemma. Either we were following a man who was chock full of "devil spirits" and we couldn't even recognize it or the whole devil spirit thing was a bunch of bovine excrement. Now, If we couldn't trust him to get this stuff right, how can we trust that anything at all he taught us was right? Hence, the dilemma.
Animals have some sort of instinct that allows them to sense if someone is intent on harming them or doing something they at least perceive as harm. (If you don't believe me, try putting an asthma mask on a cat sometime.) I think humans also have a sense that something may not be quite right. We are, after all, in the least common denominator, animals as well. Maybe that's what it is when we supposedly discern "devil spirits". One huge problem, though, is that we were actively taught to ignore these intuitions because, you know, something, something, natural man, something.
Well, cutting to the chase here, this presents a huge dilemma. Either we were following a man who was chock full of "devil spirits" and we couldn't even recognize it or the whole devil spirit thing was a bunch of bovine excrement. Now, If we couldn't trust him to get this stuff right, how can we trust that anything at all he taught us was right? Hence, the dilemma.
1) dilemma for whom? After more than three decades out of that mud pit, I'm convinced that most all of what Victor Wierwille taught us was bull$hit.
2) Many of us were primed as children to accept the framing in which he presented his bull$hit.
3) There are several reasons "we couldn't even recognize it..."
4) Wierwille told us what amounts to an origin story of his flavor of Christianity. Stories are endemic to humanity and provide a framework around which we build our understanding of life and its many aspects.
Here's a brief story of my own. Early in my life as a follower of Victor Wierwille, I watched The Exorcist. It freaked me out in several ways. Perhaps most importantly in that my worldview at the time accepted that STORY as a reflection of reality.
In the roughly four decades since my first viewing of that movie, I've learned about how important stories (true or not) are to humans. Recently, I decided to view that movie again, online. I now look at it through a different lens. It's a freakin' story. It's not a depiction of reality. It, therefore, didn't freak me out. But it did put my adult life, and plenty of things I picked up in Victor Wierwille's subculture (cult) in a different perspective.
That it took me as long (multiple decades) to UNLEARN wierwillism causes me sadness. But knowing that the obstacle is (actually) the way, I'm thankful for the journey. Because now I can write with legitimate insight about how cults can trap young people.
Well, cutting to the chase here, this presents a huge dilemma. Either we were following a man who was chock full of "devil spirits" and we couldn't even recognize it or the whole devil spirit thing was a bunch of bovine excrement. Now, If we couldn't trust him to get this stuff right, how can we trust that anything at all he taught us was right? Hence, the dilemma.
Overall I think Victor Wierwille's books are good and above average for biblical teaching books that quote from scriptures. Especially the book "Are the Dead Alive Now?" No one has been perfect in his actions. Only Jesus Christ was the perfect man, while always being loving and serving humanity. Simply some of what Victor did in his life was not good. If he was alive today and we met him, we could simply tell him his faults in a peaceful way. Using figurative words and actions. Before we told him his faults to try to help him improve. We could lift out one of our hands to him and see if he wagged his tail instead of bark or growl. And I really like dogs and cats and often want to pet them. I even have a bumper sticker on the back of my car that says "Wag More Bark Less".
Since 2015, there has been a spectacular boom in a nearly two-hundred-year-old delusion—the idea that we all live on a flat plane, under a solid dome, ringed by an impossible wall of ice. It is the ultimate in conspiracy theories, a wholesale rejection of everything we know to be true about the world in which we live. Where did this idea come from? Weill draws a straight line from today’s conspiratorial moment back to the early days of Flat Earth theory in the 1830s, showing the human impulses behind divergences in belief. Faced with a complicated world out of our individual control, we naturally seek patterns to explain the inexplicable. The only difference between then and now? Social media.
At an event in Oakland in 1979 VPW was about a yard away from me in his 3 piece white suit. I was shocked, I discerned by holy spirit that he was "Loaded" with demons. I didn't say one word to him. Only a few other times have I spiritually sensed such intense what I call "demon density." A close friend of mine who was in The Way had a similar discerning of VPW's spirits at another time and place.
The Way was sets of mirrors of VPW's internal world. He was missing a developed ego, in Fruedian terms. He had to think, emote, behave and need in ways others do not.
I feel it's easier to arm-chair diagnose VPW. . . . I'm guessing LCM developed some sort of complex with El Profesor. He doesn't sound to have a very diverse set of behaviors. Like his mind is in the movie Groundhog's Day.
On 2/23/2022 at 10:45 AM, waysider said:
Animals have some sort of instinct that allows them to sense if someone is intent on harming them or doing something they at least perceive as harm. (If you don't believe me, try putting an asthma mask on a cat sometime.) I think humans also have a sense that something may not be quite right. We are, after all, in the least common denominator, animals as well. Maybe that's what it is when we supposedly discern "devil spirits". One huge problem, though, is that we were actively taught to ignore these intuitions because, you know, something, something, natural man, something.
Well, cutting to the chase here, this presents a huge dilemma. Either we were following a man who was chock full of "devil spirits" and we couldn't even recognize it or the whole devil spirit thing was a bunch of bovine excrement. Now, If we couldn't trust him to get this stuff right, how can we trust that anything at all he taught us was right? Hence, the dilemma.
Weighing in on this stuff – I just want to be upfront and honest beforehand and say I have ZERO experience in discerning of spirits or any other of the “manifestations” as taught by wierwille – and ZERO expertise in psychological matters. I’ve never tried to develop a model of mental illness that may include the possibility of demonization – but that doesn’t mean I’m not curious about the topic. Matter of fact, that curiosity has been the driving force behind a lot of my personal study projects since I left TWI in 1986.
The issues mentioned on this thread have been at the forefront of my quest to unravel my cult-experience and the harmful and controlling nature of cult-leaders, false teachers, and ravenous wolves. Being a self-confessed Bible-study-bug and a bookworm, my natural inquisitiveness has led me to fascinating Bible studies, theological discussions as well as studies in secular work of psychology and mental health.
In offering my opinion on this thread, I’d describe it as a mix of Bolshevik’s, Waysider’s and a synthesis of other stuff that I believe has merit – some of which I’ll get to in a minute.
In retrospect, I’m fairly comfortable with an arm-chair diagnosis of wierwille being – among OTHER complexes - a malignant narcissist.
A quick internet search for a definition says psychological complexes are distorted sensory and thought patterns that lead to unnatural behavior and are typically deep-rooted in a person’s psyche. A psychological complex, as the name suggests is a distorted thought and sensory pattern that has been deeply ingrained into a person’s psyche. It decides a vast chunk of that person’s perception and decision-making in terms of how they relate to others, emotional experiences, and sense of self. A complex can happen because of many reasons.
Reflecting on my entire TWI experience – and reflecting on everything that was said and done by wierwille and LCM even down to their interpersonal relationships - that I’ve observed how they were with others as well as with me – it seems pretty obvious there was big time malignant narcissism a psychological syndrome comprising an extreme mix of narcissism, antisocial behavior, aggression, and sadism. Grandiose, and always ready to raise hostility levels, the malignant narcissist undermines families and organizations in which they are involved, and dehumanizes the people with whom they associate”
From Wikipedia - malignant narcissism
Part of the debilitating effect of allowing harmful and controlling cult-leaders to have a huge influence over my life was how it sabotaged my intuition AND cognitive skills.
While it is tempting to chalk it all up to demonic influence…possession…or whatever – I feel that is like the typical TWI-speculative-over spiritualizing-pat-answer for most problems…reflecting on the crapstorm and backlash in the aftermath of public reading of passing of the patriarch – I think that exemplifies the blind leading the blind - where a person who knows nothing is getting advice and help from another person who knows almost nothing – which is how any big crisis in TWI is handled anyway.
Dr H.A. Virkler is a licensed psychologist who has been training Christian counselors since 1974, has started 3 Christian counseling centers and has written a number of books and articles that integrate psychology and theology. In addition to teaching, he serves as an informal consultant to several Christian counseling centers, agencies and Christian schools in the West Palm Beach area. In an article he wrote in Baker Encyclopedia of Psychology and Counseling , on Demonic Influence, Sin and Psychopathology pages 326 – 332, he tries to clarify and identify the levels of demonic influence - here's a bunch of excerpts:
“Cosmology…Secular Westerners usually believe in a single-tiered (naturalistic) universe only. Christian Westerners typically believe in a two-tiered universe, with God and other supernatural forces inhabiting the upper story and human beings occupying the lower story. In contrast, most other cultures believe in a three-tiered universe; the middle story represents the sphere in which the interaction between humans and supernatural beings occurs. This is not primarily an external combat between supernatural and natural beings but an interaction that occurs intrapsychically.”
End of excerpt
( T-Bone sidenote: Definition of intrapsychic : being or occurring within the psyche, mind, or personality. The definition of intrapsychic is something that exists in the mind. An example of intrapsychic is a sleeping dream. Existing or taking place within the mind or psyche. Intrapsychic conflict. Within the psyche or mind. Existing or occurring within the mind or psyche.)
Virkler’s article goes on to mention Paul Hiebert (1932 – 2007) who was considered by many to be one of the world's leading missiological anthropologist. “Hiebert developed several theories that widely influenced the study and practice of Christian missions. His model of "critical contextualization" describes a process of understanding and evaluating cultural practices in light of biblical teaching. It is one of the most widely cited models in evangelical doctoral dissertations dealing with contextualization.
The concept of the "excluded middle" argued that most Westerners see the universe as consisting of two tiers - the invisible things of the other world, and the visible things of this world. In this way, they exclude the part in between - namely, the invisible things of this world, and in particular the unseen personal beings, such as angels and demons. Hiebert suggested that non-Westerners are much more likely to accept this "excluded middle" “ –info from the Wikipedia link – click on his name above.
Picking back up on Virkler’s article in Baker Encyclopedia of Psychology and Counseling: “Hierbert makes the point that this three-tiered cosmology is truer to biblical reality than is the two-tiered one. Christian growth, according to Scripture, occurs as a result of the Holy Spirit living within us. Likewise, Christians struggle “not against flesh and blood, but against the ruler, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms” (Eph. 6:12 NIV). The spiritual weapons and armor described in Ephesians 6: 13-18 refer to cognitive truths that Christians can use to refute the theological mistruths that Satan and his forces attempt to insert into our minds. Thus, according to God’s Word, much of our Christian experience and non-Christians’ experiences as well occur in the middle story.
Diagnostic Implications. The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV; American Psychiatric Association, 1994) contains the most comprehensive description of mental illness available. Psychopathology (mental illness) is conceptualized in a one-tiered universe. Christian counselors usually believe in a two-tiered universe, but because most are trained from a secular perspective their diagnoses often remain functionally one-tiered. Yet, if the three-tiered cosmology is correct, this has significant implications for our conceptualization of psychopathology.
Such a model would suggest that much of what we call abnormal behavior is not simply a result of developmental events occurring at the natural level. Instead, abnormality may be a result of the interaction between developmental events occurring at the natural level and Satan (using a combination of our sin natures, the attraction of the world’s system of thinking, and demonic agents) trying to draw people away from God. Thus a biblical model of illness, both physical and psychological/spiritual illness, suggests that it can come fro disease occurring in the natural realm, sin (the combined effects of our sin nature and the influence of the world’s value system), and demonic forces (often interacting with one or both of these sources).
The Reality and Activity of Demons. In recent years some Christian theologians have attempted to demythologize the Bible’s teaching on demons and demonic involvement in human life or have otherwise characterized it as prescientific, superstitious thinking. However, the New Testament includes more than one hundred references to the existence of demons; it is clear that Jesus taught that demons are real and that they cause a variety of physical and mental disorders…
End of excerpts
I like this article because it got me thinking of a more comprehensive perspective that endeavors to integrate the biblical data with modern psychology in a less dogmatic way than fundamentalists. And by that I mean wierwille’s theology seems to line up with a two-tiered approach to counseling or even just analyzing interpersonal relationships in general; as a follower of TWI, I learned to scrutinize relationships and situations in an overly simplistic breakdown of what is going on – that often it was primarily an external combat between me – a human being against some supernatural force – whether I considered the person I was arguing with as possessed or under some kind of demonic influence.
Virkler’s article presents more options or possible causes – the impasse in argumentative situations might have been over issues in “the middle story” - in other words – intrapsychic - being or occurring within the psyche, mind, or personality of either me or the other person or both of us. Maybe my interpretation of a passage is way off base, or their interpretation is – or both of us are way off – I recently shared on Grease Spot about being a WOW in DC in 1976 and witnessing to a Moonie - I called my little story Clash of the Cultists - and was responding to Bolshevik’s comment that if the communication between two people uses a lot of cult-speak language, does the mind have the option to even process, interpret, or express other modes of thought? My WOW incident upped the ante for nixing clear communication – when you have BOTH parties trying to communicate in TWO DIFFERENT CULT-SPEAK LANGUAGES … options for either person to process, interpret, or express other modes of thought are probably severely limited…you can read my post > here ....also please bear in mind my previous disclaimer about this topic – I’m merely playing at being an amateur detective long after the fact of when I was involved with TWI…so we can talk all day about discerning of spirits in TWI – but I will usually have a conservative approach and may even dicker over what level of demonic influence was present – I will list the four levels of demonic influence from Virkler’s article in a bit – but just wanted to end my overall view of dealing with the adversary in TWI – quite often the adversary was actually the top dog cult-leader…either wierwille or LCM...only I didn't realize that back then.
…I tend to think part of wierwille’s and LCM’s modus operandi was a red herring tactic – their over-spiritualizations, speculations, blame-shifting, conspiracy theories, and unhealthy fascination with demonology were phony clues and pieces of disinformation whether - it was intentional or not – wound up being misleading or distracting…it would throw anyone off the scent if they were trying to properly assess a situation…the bull$hit of wierwille and LCM would confuse or deceive us by making us believe something that is not true…it’s quite possible – they both had a delusional disorder – that they were not aware of nor acknowledged that they were actually leading people astray – and so they would point their finger at everyone else (whether human or supernatural) as if they were the cause of the issue.
Anyway – picking back up on Virkler’s article:
“Levels of Demonic Influence. Scripture suggests four levels of demonic involvement in human temptation. These levels represent a continuum ranging from no demonic involvement to significant involvement.
No Involvement. Scripture makes it clear that temptations may come from our sinful nature without demonic intervention (Jer. 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; James 1:14,15).
Demonic Temptation…temptation that is demonic in its origin. (Matt. 4:1-11…Acts 5:3…I Chron. 21:1…Eph. 6:10-18).
Demonic Oppression. A more intense level of demonic involvement in human life is called by various authors demonic influence, demonic oppression, demonic subjection, or demonic obsession. Demons are believed to exert considerable influence over a person’s life short of actual possession. Oppression may be a mild form of subjection that goes goes unnoticed for years until a particular event uncovers it. It may also refer to a state in which the person is continually surrounded and harassed by the powers of darkness…
...It could be argued that for the most part symptoms that result from demonic temptation or demonic oppression are not qualitatively different from symptoms that result from our sin natures and the temptation of the world system. It appears that the role of demons in these situations is to intensify the temptations or symptoms coming from those sources rather than to produce unique symptoms. It is primarily in the case of demon possession that some unique symptoms are produced…”
Virkler also refers to Thomas B. WHITE (who is the founder and president of Frontline Ministries, an international ministry that develops citywide prayer movements and offers teaching on spiritual formation, prayer, and spiritual warfare. He holds degrees from San Diego State University and Asbury Theological Seminary) on page 150 of his book The Believer's Guide to Spiritual Warfare White suggests four means by which he believes people become demonically oppressed. These are
1. habitual moral compromise, such as involvement in the occult, nurturing bitterness or hatred
2. persistent sexual sin, or fleshly indulgence,
3. family involvement in the occult.
4. victimization by others (incest, rape, violence, exposure to satanic rituals); or ministry activity that draws attention away from Satan.
And lastly Virkler mentions: Demonic Possession. In several instances where demon possession is described in Scripture, no specific symptoms are mentioned. When specific symptoms are mentioned they include possessed individuals manifesting supernormal strength; going about naked; being unable to speak, hear, or see; experiencing self-destructive convulsions with symptoms such as rigidity, foaming at the mouth, and teeth grinding; and making statements that suggest that one has supernatural knowledge. Sometimes the symptoms caused by the demon are continuously present. In other instances, the manifestation of the demon’s presence is episodic.
While some persons have questioned whether demon possession continues, many missionaries who work in countries where demonic (idol) worship is prevalent testify that demon possession continues to exist there with symptoms quite similar to the biblical descriptions…Christians debate whether believers can be possessed. A growing number of conservative writers believe that the biblical data do not clearly answer the issue and that therefore we should look to human experience to help us decide it. Many accounts from experienced missionaries around the world and from ministers in the United States who specialize in spiritual warfare ministries assert that possession can occur in believers…
…Some Christian writers have objected to translating ‘daimonizomai’ as demon possessed, preferring instead to use the word ‘demonized’ to refer to those whose symptoms fit into this category. ‘Demonizomai’ means to have a demon, to be possessed by a demon, or to be exercised by or under the control of a demon. Therefore, the translators of both the New American Standard Bible and the New International Version have generally translated the word as demon possessed.
Three objections have been raised to the use of this phrase. First, it connotes to some people the idea of ownership, and Christians, even when they are being demonically harassed, belong to Christ, not to Satan. Second, there is an important difference in the Holy Spirit’s residence within a believer and demonic residence. The Holy Spirit always comes as an invited guest., while Satan and his demons often come uninvited to try to harass or control a person. Third, since the Holy Spirit lives within the believer, it seems conceptually impossible to believe that a demon or demons could live there also.
The first two arguments are valid points. With regard to the third, when Scripture talks about the Holy Spirit or a demonic spirit within a person this is probably a metaphor suggesting influence or control over that person, since human spatial considerations apply to neith God nor demons. Thus there is not an inherent contradiction in recognizing that Satan and his demons may at times try to replace the loving influence the Holy Spirit has on a believer’s personality with their own control or that there may be a struggle between the Holy Spirit and a demon…
…What would a model of mental illness that included the possibility of demonization look like? The following schema proposes eight tentative categories. These eight categories are not assumed to be a full statement of all causes, and they are not assumed to operate independently of each other. Abnormal behavior can be caused by psychopathology from two or more of these categories acting synergistically.
End of excerpts
Virkler's "schema" lists eight theoretical...tentative...or unproven categories as follows:
1. some mental illnesses such as schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, obsessive-compulsive disorder, and attention deficit/hyperactivity disorder appear to have a significant genetic component that predisposes people to have one or more episodes or chronic occurrence of these particular illnesses.
2. People sometimes develop mistaken beliefs as a result of their human finiteness. People may come to mistaken interpretations or mistaken conclusions because they do not see all the data or they do not correctly analyze it.
3. Psychology may also be a result of lack of knowledge about how to deal with situations – whether social, academic, work or marital situations. Lack of skills or knowledge may also keep a person from moving to a new developmental stage – even though this would be chronologically appropriate.
4. Psychopathology may also be the result of lack of awareness of one’s thoughts, feelings, or goals. In this situation, rather than thinking the situation through so that conscious decisions about one’s behavior can be made, internal processes, feelings or goals may be acted out - in the psychology of defense mechanisms and self-control, acting out is the performance of an action considered bad or anti-social. In general usage, the action performed is destructive to self or to others.
5. Another factor that can produce unhealthy or undesirable behavior is our sin nature; that is, our self-centeredness, our desire to be god of our own lives. Our sin nature causes us to take healthy needs or drives (normal needs for food, shelter, and enjoyment) and distort them through overemphasis or misdirection.
6. The traumas that some people experience – emotional abuse, physical abuse, sexual abuse, or some other assault or crisis – can cause psychopathology. Besides the naturally occurring results of these traumas, those who have had many years experience in spiritual warfare consistently say that these kinds of developmental situations regularly become a means of entry for demonic temptation or oppression.
7. Satan is the author of the world’s system of thinking and encourages people to develop mistaken beliefs about what goals they need to reach to achieve happiness (e.g., possessions, fame, power, or pleasure). Satan also encourages people to develop mistaken beliefs about how to reach those goals (e.g., through lying, deception, stealing, or infidelity).
8. In some situations, abnormal behavior may be the result of demon possession. It is not implausible to believe Satan and demons adapt their strategies to the prevailing culture.
Virkler emphasizes that some abnormal behavior may be the result of the synergistic effect of two or more of the above list of eight factors. Virkler gives the example Satan or demons may attack the Christian suffering from major depression and may use the vulnerability caused by the major depression to convince the believer that salvation has been lost or the unpardonable sin was committed or that salvation was never really obtained. Virkler goes on to say treatment with antidepressants alone may be sufficient to remove the vulnerability that enabled Satan to successfully attack, but treatment with antidepressants followed by biblical cognitive therapy to reaffirm the believer’s position in Christ may be an even more thorough treatment for such a person.
…I have expressed elsewhere on Grease Spot Café my personal experience of clinical depression – and this point of Virkler’s really resonated with me. It is in my genetic history – going back as far as I could search to my great grandfather on my dad’s side. I dealt with depression even before TWI involvement – but once I got involved in TWI – the TWI-mindset and lifestyle that I adopted exacerbated my condition…some things just don’t mix well with a harmful and controlling cult …anyway…I thank God for a loving, patient and well-informed woman like my wife Tonto. I left TWI in 1986 – but it wasn’t until around 1999 that she convinced me to see a board certified psychiatrist…he not only got me to try a few anti-depressants until I found one that worked the best for me but he also got me into cognitive therapy – stuff that I could do myself – found a great book that I’ve shared ideas from on Grease Spot it’s Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy by David Burns ...The Rx helps me to maintain an even keel – made it a lot easier t get out of a mental rut – and the cognitive therapy helps me to steer clear of that mental rut…Don’t know how else to explain it – but without the Rx I find I get into a vicious cycle of self-analysis and can’t seem to figure out what the problem with me is…With the Rx, I’m just not that fixated on self-analysis – and instead devote my attention to solving problems I can fix. Like being less of an a$$hole to my wife and kids and improving my health – I usually walk about 2 miles a day – cut out deserts at night – eat more fiber, drink more water and eat less red meat…I lost over 28 pounds since July of 2021…yeah for me!
I am not disputing folks who say they are adept at discerning of spirits – or their claims of detecting devil spirits in cult-leaders. Like I said at the beginning – I have ZERO experience in discerning of spirits or any other of the “manifestations” as taught by wierwille – and ZERO expertise in psychological matters.
Since I left TWI, I’ve tried to develop better cognitive skills as well as gain more confidence in my intuition. In general, concerning my thought-life and studies after TWI – I feel like I’ve been taking “remedial classes” – since I was stuck in a pseudo-Christian harmful and controlling cult and did not achieve the level of attainment necessary for me to be able to function along with my contemporaries – i.e., “normal Christians” - whatever that is – since I feel like the TWI-mindset – or groupthink - was like a ball-and-chain that held me back. It was a crippling mental encumbrance that put restrictions on cognitive skills, creativity, feelings, intuition, and personal pursuits.
I’m quite confident my experiences, observations, feelings, studies – both biblical and secular…and analysis…and conclusions are fairly accurate in unraveling the “mystery”, nature and tactics of CERTAIN harmful and controlling cult-leaders. I don’t care how anyone else wants to slice it and dice it and discern devil spirits coming out the wazoo of these bozos…or however one wants to parse out the various levels of demonic influence …I’ll let God be the one to reveal the gory details – if he so chooses at a future time…sometimes I think if I could have seen what really went on “behind the scenes” not just what went on in the motorcoach but what really went on in the hearts of these cult-leaders – I’d probably freak out on how close I came to dancing with the devil.
Edited by T-Bone I know what you're thinking - whatever possessed me to write such a long post...honestly - I don't know...could of been a verbose spirit
Has ANYone on GSC over the decades really had ANY experience with "discerning of spirits" or other "manifestations" as taught by Victor Wierwille? I suspect that the answer is NO, NONE. Even if any have claimed to have such experience or insights, I just don't believe it.
Wierwille told stories. Some true, some not true. At their root, these stories were nothing more and nothing less that ways to describe and frame and understand things (including biblical stories) that may have been read and/or observed. But sincerity (or believing said stories and telling/re-telling them with an authoritative voice) doesn't make them true, factual or in any sense "reality."
They are just ways to communicate a common way to understand things. I don't believe Wierwille was "possessed." He may have been influenced by selfish and likely evil... influences. That's as far as I can go on it.
Because you have not experienced things spiritually, as the nine manifestations of the holy spirit, does not mean they do not exist, are not available by faith, or have ceased as some people claim. I know many believers who were in The Way, and others that were never in The Way, who have manifested some of the manifestations as described in the written word, 7 in Old Covenant and 9 since the Day of Pentecost. I have learned and operated all nine, and I know others that have also, though extreme minority. The body of Christ majority is in apostasy due to corruption and lack of faith and other factors.
Though unfortunately operating (manifesting) any manifestation is rare in Christianity as majority don't and much was lost in history due to many factors (starting with Constantine and what became the Catholic Church and confusion of manifestations being called "gifts," added by the translators without authority. Since 1975 when I was first exposed to The Way, I have endeavored to learn as much as I can from the written, spoken and revealed Words of God and the holy spirit and its manifestations. I have seen signs, miracles and wonders and so have others.
Way back in 1977 or 1978 a woman came to our house fellowship in a wheel chair, she hadn't walked in 7 years. She heard the teaching and she had faith for healing and said; "I want to walk tonight" Immediately everyone without verbal direction by anyone, but as inspired by the holy spirit immediately started silently speaking in tongues immediately for her to walk, which she did. The house leader assisted her by helping her up with his hand and arm. She walked for the first time in 7 years! She stayed with us for one or two weeks and was a bundle of joy, cleaning the dishes and walking etc.
I have done and seen incredible things, including God's protection a multitude of times from evil people. One instance in 1977 I was believing for a six foot hedge of protection which one attacker hit at exactly six feet as he hit an invisible force field and stopped dead from a full run towards me as I turned to look at him as I heard his feet running fast towards me. I was sick at the time with a bad flu as he had hassled me a minute before asking me for spare change and cigarettes to which I said "Stay away from me," and I walked away towards a store as I was in need for food. I told people for decades about it and said "He ran away faster than he ran towards me." Actually about a year and a half ago God informed me that the man actually de-materialized and was translated somewhere else by informing me of the true facts. At the time I told God I don't want to fight this guy. I have since realized that God and maybe my brain also was protecting me from something so incredible as de-materialization is. But I shall never forget when he hit that invisible wall, a hedge of protection.
Last year in on April 14 God protected me by stopping a car from running me over which stopped 1/2 inch from my knees. My feet were under the hood of this car. The power company was working cutting trees and so one lane was closed. I was walking and there is no sidewalk, as I live in a forested area. The car was approaching slowly and I thought it was a friend of mine's car, but could not see the person as the sun was reflecting from the windshield. I stood there thinking it was my friend and was going to walk to the side of the car and talk. It was mistaken identity. All of a sudden the insane driver speed up, I had no time to move out of the way, I was frozen in place. Even a race car driver could not stop at that speed within 1/2 inch of my knees. God prevented possible serious injury. The crew chief of the men working on the power lines saw the whole thing and said, "I thought you knew each other." Everyone was shocked including myself, we failed thereby to get the license number. That maniac should have been arrested and his license taken away. God will take care of him.
I and many believers have experienced discerning of spirits and other types of revelation received in feelings, words, visually, heard etc. It happens frequently and is not my imagination or mental illness such as hallucinations or delusions of grandeur etc. I have attended to two believers in intensive care who were at death's door, and who recovered, the first in 1986 and the other in 2018. I prayed intensely for both etc. I could go on about my own healings, revelations etc. You either believe The Word or you don't? To the degree you trust God and in what areas is to the degree that you see amazing things. I suggest you rethink your position of unbelief and doubt? It is unfortunate that most Christians do not walk by the spirit and see God's incredible power manifested in life!
I have done and seen incredible things, including God's protection a multitude of times from evil people. One instance in 1977 I was believing for a six foot hedge of protection which one attacker hit at exactly six feet as he hit an invisible force field and stopped dead from a full run towards me as I turned to look at him as I heard his feet running fast towards me. I was sick at the time with a bad flu as he had hassled me a minute before asking me for spare change and cigarettes to which I said "Stay away from me," and I walked away towards a store as I was in need for food. I told people for decades about it and said "He ran away faster than he ran towards me." Actually about a year and a half ago God informed me that the man actually de-materialized and was translated somewhere else by informing me of the true facts. At the time I told God I don't want to fight this guy. I have since realized that God and maybe my brain also was protecting me from something so incredible as de-materialization is. But I shall never forget when he hit that invisible wall, a hedge of protection.
. . .
This is good I'm glad you brought this up. You were able to use for force fields in sort of a "HE SHALL NOT PASS" scenario . . . but at the same time had the flu. It seems you could have deflected viruses too if necessary. But this didn't happen, apparently.
Some other folks here have been very adamant about using a "God-Given immune system". Do you happen to understand what these folks are getting at?
Perhaps you could shed some light on the matter by explaining how you were able to protect yourself in one area, but not another?
Because you have not experienced things spiritually, as the nine manifestations of the holy spirit, does not mean they do not exist, are not available by faith, or have ceased as some people claim.
My understanding of the premise, as you stated it in the title and first post, for this thread is that Victor Wierwille was "loaded with demons."
You then proceeded to tell the story of some incidents. You did your best to communicate your point, using the framework of your understanding and associated language.
My response was intended to reframe your points using different words/language. It is not my intent to argue theology with you about what is or isn't available two thousand years ago, or 40 years ago or now.
At an event in Oakland in 1979 VPW was about a yard away from me in his 3 piece white suit. I was shocked, I discerned by holy spirit that he was "Loaded" with demons. I didn't say one word to him. Only a few other times have I spiritually sensed such intense what I call "demon density." A close friend of mine who was in The Way had a similar discerning of VPW's spirits at another time and place.
All the garbage about Advanced class grads and Way Corps and how sharp they were supposed to be etc. and yet I sensed this before I had the advanced class. Holy spirit is not dependent on Way classes. I stayed in the Way for the fellowship and took the advanced class in 84. I grinned and bared it until 1987 when masses left including me. I am glad I had the Way experience, some of the best and worst people I met in the Way. Lucifer Con Martindale (Loy) was the worst in my opinion. I asked Way Corps Grad Phil Sebastian before he passed away, who knew LCM very well if he remembered Martindale ever operating the love of God? He said "Not that I can recall." Neither can I. I never liked LCM spiritually nor his demeanor.
Another true story about LCM and his attitude which is true. In San Francisco at a Business and Professions Conference held at the Sheraton Plaza Hotel, a friend of mine who will remain nameless had a problem with homosexuality, as he was raped twice when an adolescent. He had a terrible conflict and no matter what he could not shake it. He attended the same conference I did and he anonymously requested prayer for his problem in the prayer request book. Lucifer Con Martindale got up before the whole gathering and yelled in anger "I can't believe it, we actually have a homosexual here who requested prayer in the prayer request book! What is a prayer request book for anyway? My friend left The Way soon after that and eventually passed away also. He was the type that would help people, he was a victim. I was upset when my friend told me he was the one. I called and complained to Headquarters which fell on deaf ears. Martindale brought homosexuals into the Way with his production of Athletes of The Spirit, as he foolishly apparently did not know that generally professional male dancers tend to be "gay." So he wouldn't help a believer get delivered of homosexuality, and brought more into the ministry for his horrid and poor dancing fiasco while he routinely practiced adultery. He was as spiritually sharp as a potato, and just as intelligent in my opinion.
On 2/20/2022 at 3:57 PM, James French said:
Dear Twinky:
Thanks for the response, excellent thoughts. I am so thankful I never went into the Way Corps. I was a College Ambassador and I was the only one at both colleges I went to. I was the lone wolf, thank God. I had no one hounding me. I just cooperated with the leadership but did as I was inspired and pleased to do. I did learn a lot that year. Yeah, Loy Boy was really something. He never learned the verses 1Co 10:32Give no offense to Jews, or to Greeks, or to the church of God, 1Co 10:33just as I also please everyone in all things, not seeking my own profit, but the profit of the many, so that they might be saved.
I suspect Martindale may have forced his way into presidency as he was privy to VPW's transgressions as well as partaking in them? Why call The Way Corps the Way Corps? In War you want the Marine Corps. but in the Gospel you need God's Love manifested. He was always nasty, acting more like the "Seed of The Serpent" then a loving/kind Seed of Abraham. I remember one memorable visit he made to our local area and he reprooved everything, and as he was about to leave thank God, he said "next time I come back I will comb your hairs back" (implying reproof again). What if we did everything well? He predetermined to be a tyrant. He missed his calling, he should have been leader of the USSR!
The seed talker may have been a seed planted by the enemy? After all, practically all denominations and non-denominations have been infiltrated by the Jesuits and other "seed boys and girls." I never liked him spiritually. One picture I saw of him stood out to me, he looked weird, like almost albino like and it struck me spiritually. He should have "discerned himself." I remember when I had to take the test for the Advanced Class. He walked around like a hawk, hoping someone would be cheating it appeared. Unfortunately he taught the Advanced Class I took in 1984. VPW came and was very weak and sickly.
The new MOGFOT was worse than the old original MOGFOT. MOGFOT sounds like a demon's name, similar to MOT THE HOPPLE. I learned all about Lucifer and nothing about Christ through that creature. I always considered him the enemy? I dislike him as I dislike George Soros, Adolf Hitler and other "seed boys." He does not appear to have the nature and characteristics of someone born-again? Was, is he seed of the Serpent or just was/is loaded with demons? He was the one that sent John Schoenheit packing for merely writing about Adultery from a Biblical perspective without pointing a finger at anyone? Well, at least LCM didn't commit murder against him or anyone else that we know of? Thats in Loy's favor.
Very telling is the photograph I saw in The Way Magazine after Martindale was enthroned of his robes and hat surrounded by roped poles like they have in theater lobbies ON DISPLAY! As if he was a King or something? What pretentious ego and lack of any humility whatsoever. Well, that was craggy craig! Does anyone have a story of Lucifer Con Martindale being kind, compassionate and "Christ-like?" For fairness sake, please tell us?
13 hours ago, James French said:
Hi Rocky:
Because you have not experienced things spiritually, as the nine manifestations of the holy spirit, does not mean they do not exist, are not available by faith, or have ceased as some people claim. I know many believers who were in The Way, and others that were never in The Way, who have manifested some of the manifestations as described in the written word, 7 in Old Covenant and 9 since the Day of Pentecost. I have learned and operated all nine, and I know others that have also, though extreme minority. The body of Christ majority is in apostasy due to corruption and lack of faith and other factors.
Though unfortunately operating (manifesting) any manifestation is rare in Christianity as majority don't and much was lost in history due to many factors (starting with Constantine and what became the Catholic Church and confusion of manifestations being called "gifts," added by the translators without authority. Since 1975 when I was first exposed to The Way, I have endeavored to learn as much as I can from the written, spoken and revealed Words of God and the holy spirit and its manifestations. I have seen signs, miracles and wonders and so have others.
Way back in 1977 or 1978 a woman came to our house fellowship in a wheel chair, she hadn't walked in 7 years. She heard the teaching and she had faith for healing and said; "I want to walk tonight" Immediately everyone without verbal direction by anyone, but as inspired by the holy spirit immediately started silently speaking in tongues immediately for her to walk, which she did. The house leader assisted her by helping her up with his hand and arm. She walked for the first time in 7 years! She stayed with us for one or two weeks and was a bundle of joy, cleaning the dishes and walking etc.
I have done and seen incredible things, including God's protection a multitude of times from evil people. One instance in 1977 I was believing for a six foot hedge of protection which one attacker hit at exactly six feet as he hit an invisible force field and stopped dead from a full run towards me as I turned to look at him as I heard his feet running fast towards me. I was sick at the time with a bad flu as he had hassled me a minute before asking me for spare change and cigarettes to which I said "Stay away from me," and I walked away towards a store as I was in need for food. I told people for decades about it and said "He ran away faster than he ran towards me." Actually about a year and a half ago God informed me that the man actually de-materialized and was translated somewhere else by informing me of the true facts. At the time I told God I don't want to fight this guy. I have since realized that God and maybe my brain also was protecting me from something so incredible as de-materialization is. But I shall never forget when he hit that invisible wall, a hedge of protection.
Last year in on April 14 God protected me by stopping a car from running me over which stopped 1/2 inch from my knees. My feet were under the hood of this car. The power company was working cutting trees and so one lane was closed. I was walking and there is no sidewalk, as I live in a forested area. The car was approaching slowly and I thought it was a friend of mine's car, but could not see the person as the sun was reflecting from the windshield. I stood there thinking it was my friend and was going to walk to the side of the car and talk. It was mistaken identity. All of a sudden the insane driver speed up, I had no time to move out of the way, I was frozen in place. Even a race car driver could not stop at that speed within 1/2 inch of my knees. God prevented possible serious injury. The crew chief of the men working on the power lines saw the whole thing and said, "I thought you knew each other." Everyone was shocked including myself, we failed thereby to get the license number. That maniac should have been arrested and his license taken away. God will take care of him.
I and many believers have experienced discerning of spirits and other types of revelation received in feelings, words, visually, heard etc. It happens frequently and is not my imagination or mental illness such as hallucinations or delusions of grandeur etc. I have attended to two believers in intensive care who were at death's door, and who recovered, the first in 1986 and the other in 2018. I prayed intensely for both etc. I could go on about my own healings, revelations etc. You either believe The Word or you don't? To the degree you trust God and in what areas is to the degree that you see amazing things. I suggest you rethink your position of unbelief and doubt? It is unfortunate that most Christians do not walk by the spirit and see God's incredible power manifested in life!
Hi James French,
The experiences you talk about DIFFER GREATLY from mine AND the TWI-followers I knew as well as what I have seen and heard in all the areas I served – I was in TWI from 1974 to 1986, went WOW and was in the way corps – and for 12 years of my involvement I served in New York, Wash. DC, Colorado, Indiana, Louisiana, Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin, Ohio, and Texas.
I say the experiences you’ve mentioned are TOTALLY UNLIKE mine, partly because I find your narrative incredulous and partly because your premise is based on faulty teachings from the Power For Abundant Living class.
My experiences:
I took PFAL in 1974 and at the end of session 12, I followed the instructions of the teacher – I stood up, and moved my lips, tongue and mouth and made-up words. TWI calls that speaking in tongues. I call it learned behaviorism. I could do that before I took PFAL – I use to fake oriental and Russian sounding gibberish in High School as part of my class-clown shtick. As far as speaking in tongues goes – you might want to check out The Reluctant Skeptic website - I challenge you to HONETSLY answer the 10 hard questions - click on that link > The Reluctant Skeptic: 10 hard questions about tongues ...so I faked it...and I've heard some others admit now that they faked it too... after all there is a lot of pressure from everyone running the class that it's a big deal! And I'm not saying everyone faked it...but going on the limitations mentioned in I Corinthians 12 - not EVERONE can or will speak in tongues.
I think “speaking in tongues” was a lot easier to fake for many folks in TWI, compared to interpretation of tongues and prophesy – because the tongues-gibberish didn’t have to make sense…I’ve NEVER WITNESSED anyone in TWI ACTUALLY DO the other six – the revelation and power manifestations ! Though we’ve all heard talk about it – but talk is cheap – and misleading…and MATTER OF FACT, what I HAVE WITNESSED and HEARD were enough “manifestation misfires” to make me think wierwille and martindale were phonies...there's been some Grease Spotters here who have worked very closely alongside wierwille and martindale and they will also confirm they've never seen these two "operate" the big 6 (revelation and power manifestations)...here's just a couple of "misfires" that always come to mind when we get into talking about what big phonies these bozos were:
1.) A lady in my Twig with a misshapen foot from birth went to Camp Gunnison because wierwille was there for some big event. She asked him to heal her foot. He couldn’t do it. She came back to my Twig crying – telling me wierwille essentially blamed the failure on her unbelief…gee what happened to the grace of God like in Mark 9:24 "I do believe; help my unbelief!" and what about Ephesians 3:20 "Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think" that right there tells me God is NOT limited by my believing.
2.) At an early 80’s Rock of Ages, Ted F. collapses on stage during a performance – martindale rushes over and begins ministering to him – we could all hear what was said because Ted was still holding a microphone…martindale is going on and on praying for Ted’s heart and blah blah blah…when he stops praying, Ted says quietly “It’s my knee, Craig”… that became a living meme on the byways of ROA. I remember seeing musician Skip M. near one of the family tables “reliving” the parts of both Ted and martindale and the folks on his picnic blanket were cracking up.
~ ~ ~ ~
Some doctrinal issues:
I also wanted to address some dubious premises in your posts…one is your idea that all believers can operate all 9 manifestations…I disagree.
I don’t want to give you the idea that I think the manifestations are no longer operative. I merely challenge wierwille’s ENTIRE body of work on the holy spirit/Holy Spirit – which it seems pretty obvious to me you are basing your position on what he taught.
The Holy Spirit has been another favorite study project of mine…In my opinion wierwille butchers up the Greek syntax, and is often mistaken on who a pronoun refers to in I Corinthians 12, 13 and 14 wierwille ignores Paul distinguishing between the genuine speaking in tongues (plural) and the gibberish counterfeit of pagan ecstatic speech, speaking in a tongue (singular)…an example of wierwille mistaking who the pronoun refers to see - “But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.”I Corinthians 12:11 if you’ll remember wierwille taught the “he” in verse 11 referred to the believer – but you’ll find that translators interpret it to mean The Holy Spirit – God – by capitalizing “He”. Feel free to click on that verse/link I just gave to see alternate versions – which will bear me out on the point that it’s the prerogative of The Holy Spirit – NOT the believer – to distribute…online commentaries of this passage – like I Corinthians 12:11 commentaries <please click that previous link – these commentaries will also bear me out – besides the commentaries I have at home – printed and digital.
You have correctly stated “Holy spirit is not dependent on Way classes” – I agree. the Holy Spirit is our tutor as seen in passages like I John 2:27 “But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you everything you need to know, and what he teaches is true—it is not a lie. So just as he has taught you, remain in fellowship with Christ.”
…it is presumptuous to think we need anyone teach us about the manifestations…there is no precedence for that anywhere in the Bible…I also think it’s kind of egotistical to assume we each have all nine – when I Corinthians 12:12 and following emphasizes the contribution of ALL believers with differing gifts, ministries, abilities, and focuses on unity – a team effort.
Much of what you said reflects exactly what wierwille taught in the Advanced Class…This is ironic to me – since you base your “discernment”, criticism…assessment of wierwille using the same dubious criterion that he promoted in PFAL and the Advanced Class
For brevity’s sake I will refer to my post in the > 2nd Wave of Returning to PFAL thread where I mentioned the fourfold insidious recipe of PFAL - which is wierwille’s signature intuition, fundamentalism, spiritualism, and Gnosticism.
You seem to rely on conspiracy theories - and some statements you’ve made are very disturbing – like your statement “The seed talker may have been a seed planted by the enemy? After all, practically all denominations and non-denominations have been infiltrated by the Jesuits and other "seed boys and girls." “
FYI demonology is the NON-SCIENTIFIC study of demons or beliefs about demons, and the hierarchy of demons. “NON-SCIENTIFIC study” is another way of saying the study does NOT involve careful observation, does NOT apply rigorous skepticism about what is observed, does NOT formulate hypotheses via induction based on observations, does NOT involve experimental and MEASUREMENT-BASED TESTING of deductions drawn from the hypotheses, and does NOT refine or eliminate hypotheses based on the experimental findings.
For TWI-believers we all thought wierwille was in his element whenever he taught on this stuff. One of the most bizarre and unsettling topics was his teaching on the unforgiveable sin - being born again of the wrong seed. As the proof-text for this he used a passage like Matthew 12: 31-37 to “inform” us that there is only one sin that God will not forgive and the passages in John 8: 12 – 59 where Jesus said “…I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father…Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.” wierwille zeroed in on the two fathers mentioned by Jesus and ignoring Jesus’ use of figurative language he decided to double down on dogmatic fundamentalism. wierwille emphatically stated it was literal – which meant that there were only two sources of “spiritual seed” (whatever that is) supplied by two diametrically opposed fathers – one father is God the creator of the heavens and the Earth – and the other father is the devil.
Theologians as far back as Augustine have interpreted John 8:44 FIGURATIVELY – meaning Jesus’ enemies were children of the devil BY IMITATION. A similar figurative interpretation is held by many modern theologians like Albert Barnes, Matthew Poole, F.L. Godet, H.A. Ironside, William Kelly, R.C.H. Lenski, Arthur W. Pink, J.C. Ryle, R.V.G. Tasker, and W.E. Vine ( see also the free online resource John 8:44 online commentaries ).
For someone like wierwille who boasted of the great accuracy and integrity of the Bible and his in-depth analysis of it as well as his supposedly great experience in discerning of spirits and in casting out devil spirits – he offered very little details on exactly how one would commit the unforgiveable sin and get born again of the wrong seed. In my opinion this is one of the most questionable and treacherous doctrines of wierwille. A doctrine that is so fraught with psychological stress that the session on the unforgivable sin was pulled from the PFAL class proper, and was only available for viewing sometime later – after a new student “successfully” completed the PFAL class (i.e. they supposedly spoke in tongues) and has been reviewing all the class material and attending Twig Fellowships for a while...We can only speculate why wierwille yanked it from the class proper – my guess is that there were some unintended consequences...maybe he was aware of some folks having issues with thinking they might have committed the unforgivable sin... I remember reading on Grease Spot someone shared of a person they knew who was convinced they committed the unforgivable sin – so they committed suicide... ...how awful !!!! such tragedy and destruction wrought by wierwille's twisted doctrines!
A fascinating relevance to Gnosticism’s maxim of spirit good / matter evil correlates to wierwille’s body, soul, and spirit teaching – the erroneous trichotomy view of a Christian . wierwille defined soul as breath-life - which is an organic function of the body (matter) which is evil. sounds like a lot of double-talk to me...a combination of sense and nonsense...
I also recall something – I think I heard martindale as one of the first TWI-leaders to refer to natural men and women (who do not have spirit) by the derogatory term “empties floating by”. Basically, this trichotomy view of a Christian goes against the biblical view that men and women were created in God’s image. The Bible does NOT suggest we lost God’s image in the Fall… An interesting study is a look into the Hebrew definition of “death” – not that I will go into great detail here – but you’ll find basically it means “separation” rather than annihilation or total obliteration – i.e., cease to exist. That human beings still retain the image of God – though it may now be tarnished is suggested in such passages as Genesis 9:6 and James 3:9 in which both refer to a time long after the Fall in Genesis 3.
in wierwille’s “expertise” of the Advanced Class tinged with Gnosticism, speculations and dubious theories - we found out about all the categories of devil spirits...the fully initiated are the elite who deserve to have influence and authority over others...part of the big hype of the Advanced Class is the mystique of conspiracies – the Illuminati, One World Government, the wrong-seed boys running everything,..part of the attraction to conspiracies may have something to do with what psychologist Ello Martino said: "humans have a need for control and order when distressed. Fear, uncertainty, and feelings of being out of control can lead people to search for patterns and meaning in people's behavior as a way to make sense of the chaos and attempt to navigate the fear of the unknown. This is an evolutionary adaptive mechanism designed to keep us alive"
From Psychology Today - This Is Why You Are Attracted to Conspiracy Theories
Besides the fact that wierwille’s demonology is a NON-SCIENTIFIC study – I will also point out – if you haven’t realized it already - his demonology - as well as his study of holy spirit/Holy Spirit is NOT biblical. A BIBLICAL and CRITICAL analysis of the logic in wierwille’s Great Principle “God who is spirit can only speak to what He is which is spirit…God’s Spirit teaches His creation in you, which is now your spirit, and your spirit teaches your mind…and etc. “ will show it’s severely flawed. What about God talking to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden? What about God talking to Moses and writing the ten commandments with His finger? What about Balaam’s donkey talking to the prophet? What about God putting a futuristic dream of world powers in the mind of Nebuchadnezzar? And what about God telling Daniel the dream He put in Nebuchadnezzar's mind and then tells him what the dream meant? What about Jesus, Peter, James and John on the mount of transfiguration and a voice came out of the cloud “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!”? These are all just a few biblical passages that exposes the error of wierwille’s nonsensical principle...it's almost laughable how wierwille had such a trivial concept of God - and he passed that on to us poor suckers who bought into wierwille's confining...stifling...trivializing theological box.
And if one dared to think outside wierwille's theological box - they were condemned...ridiculed! "How dare you doubt the man of God and the rightly-divided Word that he taught...why you're a cop out...nothing more than a rank unbeliever...a spiritually hitchhiker. You're probably not even born again...You phony!"
In closing – I wanted to address some of the last things you said:
“…I could go on about my own healings, revelations etc. You either believe The Word or you don't? To the degree you trust God and in what areas is to the degree that you see amazing things. I suggest you rethink your position of unbelief and doubt? It is unfortunate that most Christians do not walk by the spirit and see God's incredible power manifested in life!”
Looking at your profile, I see you joined Grease Spot Café on June 22, 2002. That was some 20 years ago. I joined on January 19, 2006 – some 16 years ago. I venture to say my beliefs have changed…expanded…deepened…my faith in God has grown and enriched my Bible study in that short time – my beliefs or the beliefs of other Grease Spotters may not exactly line up with your opinions on something....and some of what you expressed seems to reflect the dogmatic and pompous criterion of wierwille/PFAL/TWI
I find your false dichotomy “You either believe The Word or you don't” off-putting, condescending and manipulative. It seems like you are stuck in a PFAL-time capsule...Maybe you should rethink your position on some of the things you've posted.
Perhaps you’d be interested in a civil discussion here or start another thread to honestly talk...listen...exchange ideas...clarify...explore...reevaluate... if everyone thinks alike - maybe that means no one is really thinking...hence the value of discourse and the variety of viewpoints!
...I look forward to your reply
Edited by T-Bone looking for an editor adept at discerning of typos
…it is presumptuous to think we need anyone teach us about the manifestations…there is no precedence for that anywhere in the Bible…I also think it’s kind of egotistical to assume we each have all nine – when I Corinthians 12:12 and following emphasizes the contribution of ALL believers with differing gifts, ministries, abilities, and focuses on unity – a team effort.
In the biblical teaching book written by Mark Sanguinetti. One of the 16 chapters covers 1 Corinthians chapter 12. Here is the section of this chapter that is in harmony with your above quote.
Quote
Furthermore, every believer in Christ receives the same fullness of and the same spiritual ability to manifest all that is available. Even the gentiles, who were thought negatively in Old Testament times, receive this fullness in Christ.
Colossians 1:27
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: (KJV)
From previously quoted verses we can see that Christians have all that God has provided via the Holy Spirit, and therefore have the potential to operate all just as Christ did, both in their individual lives and for the common good of the body of believers. However, we still see one manifestation given to one disciple and another manifestation given to another. The answer to this seeming contradiction lies in the context of 1 Corinthians 12:12-27. From this we see the greatest example in the entire New Testament for the function and harmony of the church. In fact, it even calls the church a figurative human body with Christ as the head. Could it be that God would have some believers do some things and other believers do other things as a way of bringing diversity and unity to the body of Christ? Look at it this way. What if you went to a church where only one central figure or person spoke and did everything from the teaching, to the leading of songs, to prayer, and everything else in between? In this church only one person publically was allowed to exhibit any godly spiritual things.
In contrast, what if you went to a different church where a number of mature seasoned believers contributed to the church content? Some people prayed, others spoke in tongues with interpretation, another ministered and prayed for healing for a person that had cancer and was recovering after medical help, and still others taught God’s Word from bible verses. Furthermore, all this was done “decently and in order” (KJV, 1 Corinthians 14:40) as the scriptures require. Let’s say that you are one of the mature believers with a spiritual gift to share. Perhaps you really love to bring forth prophetic words of exhortation and comfort to the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 14:3-4) and you are able and called on to do this. Which church would you rather go to? This answer is easy for me. I might go to the one minister church for a while. I might even enjoy the teaching if the minister was well read, scripturally factual and good in presentation. Eventually I could get bored through sitting in this church with nothing to actively do, but twiddle my thumbs, leaf through the pages of a bible and look at the walls and ceiling. After all, I can do these same things in my home, can I not? I have a gift to share with my fellow brothers and sisters in the Lord and if you are a mature disciple of Christ who loves God’s people, I bet you do too.
All believers can contribute gifts, ministries, and functions in the body of Christ and this is through the operation of the Holy Spirit given to followers of Christ.One reason that some followers of Christ may function more in comparison to others is that some followers of Christ may have more faith and desire with one or a few spiritual things of service compared to other things of service. The main reason, according to 1 Corinthians 12:18, is that God has arranged the body of Christ as it has pleased him with the contributions of many people. Also, there are a variety of different things needed in the body of Christ, as well as needed unity in the church. The needed things include spiritual gifts that originate from God, ministries of service, and working operations of activity as read in 1 Corinthians 12:4-6. The followers of Christ should be able to work in harmony, while humbly knowing that no one has all knowledge. Only Jesus Christ is the head of his body or church at least spiritually. Furthermore, all church members are important and God wants all to contribute to the body of Christ and not just a select few.
Continuing with 1 Corinthians 12:12-13, more is stated concerning one Spirit.
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized (baptizo) into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (KJV)
All believers can contribute gifts, ministries, and functions in the body of Christ and this is through the operation of the Holy Spirit given to followers of Christ.One reason that some followers of Christ may function more in comparison to others is that some followers of Christ may have more faith and desire with one or a few spiritual things of service compared to other things of service. The main reason, according to 1 Corinthians 12:18, is that God has arranged the body of Christ as it has pleased him with the contributions of many people.
No offense Mark, but I don't think we're talking about the same thing...you are basically saying the same thing wierwille said in PFAL when he misinterpreted I Cor. 12:11 to mean "distributing severally as he (the believer) wills." what I expressed in my post was that God chooses what to distribute - and it's to whomever He chooses...that's a big difference!
Please click on this link > I Corinthians 12:11 and read all the different versions of that passage...it seems pretty obvious in each version that God is the one doing the distributing as He desires...it has NOTHING to do with a believer having more faith and desire!
.) A lady in my Twig with a misshapen foot from birth went to Camp Gunnison because wierwille was there for some big event. She asked him to heal her foot. He couldn’t do it. She came back to my Twig crying – basically saying wierwille blamed the failure on her unbelief
In the first twig I was involved with, there was a young lady, still in high school, who was missing an arm. If I recall correctly, she was born like that. We'll call her Suzie for the sake of simplicity. She was initially attracted to The Way by fellow classmates who told her that complete healing was possible. Now, there was always this undercurrent of "believing" for Suzie's arm to be completely restored. People spoke in tongues for Suzie's arm, cast out "doubting spirits", ministered to her, counceled her on "the law of believing", encouraged her to become more involved in the twig workings. She became more and more frustrated and depressed as time elapsed because her "healing" just wasn't happening. Then, her father caught wind of what was going on and was, to put it mildly, furious. He had spent years teaching her to accept her current condition and to adjust to the realities of life as a disabled person. He forbade her to continue associating with The Way and I never heard from her again. When I look back on my life and reflect on things I'm ashamed of, I have to tell you that this is way up there toward the top of the list.
To all the Suzies who crossed my path in The Way, I offer you this humble apology. I surely never meant to hurt anyone.
emphasizes the contribution of ALL believers with differing gifts, ministries, abilities, and focuses on unity – a team effort.
What I am agreeing with you is with the above statement. Regarding the 1 Corinthians 12:11 having a capital letter at the end of this verse. Many bible versions do not use a capital for "he". For example, the New International Version.
Quote
11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines. (NIV)
But at least one newer version does translate this verse with a capital letter for "He". The New King Version:
Quote
11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills. (NKJV)
It is both. At the start God through Jesus Christ inspires and teaches his followers, while distributing to them through the Holy Spirit. Then followers of Christ determine what they will do in their earthly ministry. We are not puppets on a string. That is the devil who wants to do that often through deception.
It is both. At the start God through Jesus Christ inspires and teaches his followers, while distributing to them through the Holy Spirit. Then followers of Christ determine what they will do in their earthly ministry. We are not puppets on a string. That is the devil who wants to do that often through deception.
Sorry to belabor this particular point, Mark – though I agree with you on the idea that we are not puppets on a string…Scripture-wise, up to this point (I Corinthians 12:11) it would be premature to suggest that Paul means “It is both” in that verse. I say premature because here the verse doesn’t concern the proper time – when both the Holy Spirit and the believer are “in sync” – to work well together, to be in agreement, or match well with someone else – though that is “the game plan”.
If anything, I Cor. 12:11 stresses WHO formulates “the game plan” – it’s The Holy Spirit – if I were to elaborate on why I think Paul is emphasizing that, I’d say maybe he wants to prevent someone from being too hasty…impetuous…impulsive…egotisical…striving to be an all-star player instead of a team-player…This merely repeats what Paul had already said in verse 6: And there are [distinctive] ways of working [to accomplish things], but it is the same God who produces all things in all believers [inspiring, energizing, and empowering them].I Corinthians 12:6 The Amplified Bible
And to rehash what I got into with my previous post - correcting wierwille’s erroneous teaching that each believer can do all nine - “energized by the same car battery” – as wierwille put it in PFAL – reducing THE Holy Spirit to an inanimate rechargeable power source for an automobile. In that metaphor, it implies the person driving is the one calling the shots – the car battery has no will of its own – no say in the matter. It may be a convenient metaphor to shoehorn his misinterpretation into the topic – but it’s foreign and not supported by Scripture.
Paul taught that EACH believer had a spiritual gift – in I Corinthians 12:7 NASB it’s called “manifestation” “But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.” A manifestation – or "a detailed disclosure of the Spirit. One of the ways the Holy Spirit makes Himself known is through believers using their spiritual gifts" is what The Moody Bible Commentary says of v.7.
The Moody Bible Commentary goes on to say that the Spirit gives gifts to each believer (v.11) based on His sovereign determination – NOT on the believer’s asking for it. At the end of chapter 12, Paul asked a series of rhetorical questions – each anticipating a negative response – so in verse 13 it says “…we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body…and we were all given the one Spirit to drink” but not ALL speak with tongues (verse 30) – so tongues cannot be THE sign of the baptism in the Spirit.
Chapter 12 ends with “But earnestly desire the higher gifts” (ESV) – which is a command in light of I Corinthians 14: 1, 12 “ Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy… So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church.” But does not contradict I Corinthians 12: 11, 18“All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills... But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose.”
~ ~ ~ ~
End of referring to The Moody Bible Commentary
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Twinky
I can go along with you on this. I was at a fellowship (long past my TWI days, but it was reformed ex-Wayfers who'd walked away from TWI doctrines). This was 20 years ago, I don't remember all th
Twinky
Now that's an insult to potatoes! ("Slug" is what I've always thought.) I endured two years of in-rez "training" under his leadership. Sure, it was just after the "fog years" and he was working
Rocky
The Way, in general, and certainly Loy in particular, looked at it all as a war. To say Martindale was unbalanced was/is a massive understatement.
Twinky
Now that's an insult to potatoes! ("Slug" is what I've always thought.)
I endured two years of in-rez "training" under his leadership. Sure, it was just after the "fog years" and he was working out his angst after the damage done by Chris Geer (a particularly nasty piece of work), but it was all yell, yell, yell. At Corps Nights, at lunchtimes, not quite so noisily at Sunday Night Services, but defo at prep for SNS; very little quiet time with him. On one occasion we were given permission to watch ??the superbowl? - not a thing I know anything about, not interested in (not an American), it was offered as an option not an order, so I did something else. Next day, everyone got a yellfest. If he suggested something, we ought to know to do it. We would learn something from it, and we would learn something about ... him. Cuz he was such a great player, or some such.
This business about gays: he ranted on about that lifestyle so very much. Several men were kicked out on this pretext while I was in rez. (One, I know, certainly didn't have any homo instincts (blushes)). You don't say what year the incident you reference took place. I'd assumed that his rants were linked in some way with his wife's affair with Rosie, but maybe his hatred of homosexuals predated that - maybe that's what drove his wife into Rosie's arms? I neither know nor care.
I emerged from my battering with TWI with a lot of emotional damage, years of hurt, and a loathing of homosexuals and their devilishness. I visited a city I didn't know and got badly lost. An obvious, camp, homosexual saw that I was struggling, offered help and walked me a couple of streets to an area where I could get to where I needed to go. Such kindness! I felt I'd never had such wanton kindness by TWI leadership. It was the start of dismantling that manufactured prejudice; pre-TWI homosexuality was not a thing I'd known anything about before. Glad to say that I go to a loving church now where everyone from anywhere is honestly welcome.
Bizarre, isn't it. We "learned" about "devil spirits" from leaders packing the biggest DS (or is that, BS?) that you could imagine. Big ones turning on little ones.
LCM and his nutsy ideas of "tough love" and protecting other people, pah! The crazy fool wouldn't know the love of God if it were the only thing left on the planet.
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James French
Dear Twinky:
Thanks for the response, excellent thoughts. I am so thankful I never went into the Way Corps. I was a College Ambassador and I was the only one at both colleges I went to. I was the lone wolf, thank God. I had no one hounding me. I just cooperated with the leadership but did as I was inspired and pleased to do. I did learn a lot that year. Yeah, Loy Boy was really something. He never learned the verses 1Co 10:32 Give no offense to Jews, or to Greeks, or to the church of God, 1Co 10:33 just as I also please everyone in all things, not seeking my own profit, but the profit of the many, so that they might be saved.
I suspect Martindale may have forced his way into presidency as he was privy to VPW's transgressions as well as partaking in them? Why call The Way Corps the Way Corps? In War you want the Marine Corps. but in the Gospel you need God's Love manifested. He was always nasty, acting more like the "Seed of The Serpent" then a loving/kind Seed of Abraham. I remember one memorable visit he made to our local area and he reprooved everything, and as he was about to leave thank God, he said "next time I come back I will comb your hairs back" (implying reproof again). What if we did everything well? He predetermined to be a tyrant. He missed his calling, he should have been leader of the USSR!
The seed talker may have been a seed planted by the enemy? After all, practically all denominations and non-denominations have been infiltrated by the Jesuits and other "seed boys and girls." I never liked him spiritually. One picture I saw of him stood out to me, he looked weird, like almost albino like and it struck me spiritually. He should have "discerned himself." I remember when I had to take the test for the Advanced Class. He walked around like a hawk, hoping someone would be cheating it appeared. Unfortunately he taught the Advanced Class I took in 1984. VPW came and was very weak and sickly.
The new MOGFOT was worse than the old original MOGFOT. MOGFOT sounds like a demon's name, similar to MOT THE HOPPLE. I learned all about Lucifer and nothing about Christ through that creature. I always considered him the enemy? I dislike him as I dislike George Soros, Adolf Hitler and other "seed boys." He does not appear to have the nature and characteristics of someone born-again? Was, is he seed of the Serpent or just was/is loaded with demons? He was the one that sent John Schoenheit packing for merely writing about Adultery from a Biblical perspective without pointing a finger at anyone? Well, at least LCM didn't commit murder against him or anyone else that we know of? Thats in Loy's favor.
Very telling is the photograph I saw in The Way Magazine after Martindale was enthroned of his robes and hat surrounded by roped poles like they have in theater lobbies ON DISPLAY! As if he was a King or something? What pretentious ego and lack of any humility whatsoever. Well, that was craggy craig! Does anyone have a story of Lucifer Con Martindale being kind, compassionate and "Christ-like?" For fairness sake, please tell us?
Edited by James Frenchadding and correcting
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Rocky
The Way, in general, and certainly Loy in particular, looked at it all as a war. To say Martindale was unbalanced was/is a massive understatement.
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WordWolf
The short of it is that lcm was recruited in college. He was young and naive, and wanted answers. vpw conned him completely. lcm became incredibly loyal to him, and vpw slowly turned him into two-fold the child of heck that he himself was. Part of that was that vpw KNEW he was running a con, so he knew when to shut up and hide things. He'd covinced lcm all of it was of God, so lcm was fully sincere and thought he was doing the right thing when he copied vpw's harmful things. Like the student of a Pharisee who was made two-fold the child of heck his teacher was, so was lcm.
When asked privately why vpw hand-picked lcm, vpw said it was because lcm never questioned him he always did what vpw told him to do. vpw had 2 men rabidly loyal to him- l craig martindale and chris geer. lcm sounded like a normal jock who was a Christian once upon a time, but vpw basically destroyed the man he was. In one of life's little twists, as soon as lcm was enthroned, he tossed vpw aside and thought every thought that flittered through his own head was Divine Revelation and vpw's was yesterday's news.
There's a number of threads about him. Here's one. "Who was L Craig Martindale?"
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Mark Sanguinetti
I did meet Craig Martindale once at the rock of ages in New Knoxville, Ohio. This after I finished as a WOW ambassador in perhaps 1984. I think we were peaceful with each other. But then about 2 or 3 years later I saw the problem with the hierarchy of the leaders of the Way ministry to take the place of the Lordship of Jesus Christ. This hierarchy included Craig Martindale and to let the Way ministry know about this errant problem I wrote a letter with biblical information and mailed it to their office in Ohio. I forget whether or not I got a letter and a response back from them, but perhaps I did. I think they knew it would be very difficult for them to oppose me on this subject of the Lordship of Jesus Christ Contrasting the Lordship of Imperfect Man. Soon after this I wrote the first copy or draft of this biblical teaching article or today one of the chapters of my biblical teaching book. I sent this first copy in the late 1980s to a number of Way ministry people.
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Bolshevik
I feel it's easier to arm-chair diagnose VPW. . . . I'm guessing LCM developed some sort of complex with El Profesor. He doesn't sound to have a very diverse set of behaviors. Like his mind is in the movie Groundhog's Day.
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waysider
Animals have some sort of instinct that allows them to sense if someone is intent on harming them or doing something they at least perceive as harm. (If you don't believe me, try putting an asthma mask on a cat sometime.) I think humans also have a sense that something may not be quite right. We are, after all, in the least common denominator, animals as well. Maybe that's what it is when we supposedly discern "devil spirits". One huge problem, though, is that we were actively taught to ignore these intuitions because, you know, something, something, natural man, something.
Well, cutting to the chase here, this presents a huge dilemma. Either we were following a man who was chock full of "devil spirits" and we couldn't even recognize it or the whole devil spirit thing was a bunch of bovine excrement. Now, If we couldn't trust him to get this stuff right, how can we trust that anything at all he taught us was right? Hence, the dilemma.
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Rocky
1) dilemma for whom? After more than three decades out of that mud pit, I'm convinced that most all of what Victor Wierwille taught us was bull$hit.
2) Many of us were primed as children to accept the framing in which he presented his bull$hit.
3) There are several reasons "we couldn't even recognize it..."
4) Wierwille told us what amounts to an origin story of his flavor of Christianity. Stories are endemic to humanity and provide a framework around which we build our understanding of life and its many aspects.
Here's a brief story of my own. Early in my life as a follower of Victor Wierwille, I watched The Exorcist. It freaked me out in several ways. Perhaps most importantly in that my worldview at the time accepted that STORY as a reflection of reality.
In the roughly four decades since my first viewing of that movie, I've learned about how important stories (true or not) are to humans. Recently, I decided to view that movie again, online. I now look at it through a different lens. It's a freakin' story. It's not a depiction of reality. It, therefore, didn't freak me out. But it did put my adult life, and plenty of things I picked up in Victor Wierwille's subculture (cult) in a different perspective.
That it took me as long (multiple decades) to UNLEARN wierwillism causes me sadness. But knowing that the obstacle is (actually) the way, I'm thankful for the journey. Because now I can write with legitimate insight about how cults can trap young people.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Overall I think Victor Wierwille's books are good and above average for biblical teaching books that quote from scriptures. Especially the book "Are the Dead Alive Now?" No one has been perfect in his actions. Only Jesus Christ was the perfect man, while always being loving and serving humanity. Simply some of what Victor did in his life was not good. If he was alive today and we met him, we could simply tell him his faults in a peaceful way. Using figurative words and actions. Before we told him his faults to try to help him improve. We could lift out one of our hands to him and see if he wagged his tail instead of bark or growl. And I really like dogs and cats and often want to pet them. I even have a bumper sticker on the back of my car that says "Wag More Bark Less".
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Rocky
This is a tangent, but it's not necessarily off topic.
Off the Edge: Flat Earthers, Conspiracy Culture, and Why People Will Believe Anything
Since 2015, there has been a spectacular boom in a nearly two-hundred-year-old delusion—the idea that we all live on a flat plane, under a solid dome, ringed by an impossible wall of ice. It is the ultimate in conspiracy theories, a wholesale rejection of everything we know to be true about the world in which we live. Where did this idea come from? Weill draws a straight line from today’s conspiratorial moment back to the early days of Flat Earth theory in the 1830s, showing the human impulses behind divergences in belief. Faced with a complicated world out of our individual control, we naturally seek patterns to explain the inexplicable. The only difference between then and now? Social media.
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waysider
It's a dilemma for those who have yet to come to this conclusion.
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Bolshevik
https://www.heraldopenaccess.us/openaccess/dissociation-and-confabulation-in-narcissistic-disorders
The Way was sets of mirrors of VPW's internal world. He was missing a developed ego, in Fruedian terms. He had to think, emote, behave and need in ways others do not.
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T-Bone
Weighing in on this stuff – I just want to be upfront and honest beforehand and say I have ZERO experience in discerning of spirits or any other of the “manifestations” as taught by wierwille – and ZERO expertise in psychological matters. I’ve never tried to develop a model of mental illness that may include the possibility of demonization – but that doesn’t mean I’m not curious about the topic. Matter of fact, that curiosity has been the driving force behind a lot of my personal study projects since I left TWI in 1986.
The issues mentioned on this thread have been at the forefront of my quest to unravel my cult-experience and the harmful and controlling nature of cult-leaders, false teachers, and ravenous wolves. Being a self-confessed Bible-study-bug and a bookworm, my natural inquisitiveness has led me to fascinating Bible studies, theological discussions as well as studies in secular work of psychology and mental health.
In offering my opinion on this thread, I’d describe it as a mix of Bolshevik’s, Waysider’s and a synthesis of other stuff that I believe has merit – some of which I’ll get to in a minute.
In retrospect, I’m fairly comfortable with an arm-chair diagnosis of wierwille being – among OTHER complexes - a malignant narcissist.
A quick internet search for a definition says psychological complexes are distorted sensory and thought patterns that lead to unnatural behavior and are typically deep-rooted in a person’s psyche. A psychological complex, as the name suggests is a distorted thought and sensory pattern that has been deeply ingrained into a person’s psyche. It decides a vast chunk of that person’s perception and decision-making in terms of how they relate to others, emotional experiences, and sense of self. A complex can happen because of many reasons.
Reflecting on my entire TWI experience – and reflecting on everything that was said and done by wierwille and LCM even down to their interpersonal relationships - that I’ve observed how they were with others as well as with me – it seems pretty obvious there was big time malignant narcissism a psychological syndrome comprising an extreme mix of narcissism, antisocial behavior, aggression, and sadism. Grandiose, and always ready to raise hostility levels, the malignant narcissist undermines families and organizations in which they are involved, and dehumanizes the people with whom they associate”
From Wikipedia - malignant narcissism
Part of the debilitating effect of allowing harmful and controlling cult-leaders to have a huge influence over my life was how it sabotaged my intuition AND cognitive skills.
While it is tempting to chalk it all up to demonic influence…possession…or whatever – I feel that is like the typical TWI-speculative-over spiritualizing-pat-answer for most problems…reflecting on the crapstorm and backlash in the aftermath of public reading of passing of the patriarch – I think that exemplifies the blind leading the blind - where a person who knows nothing is getting advice and help from another person who knows almost nothing – which is how any big crisis in TWI is handled anyway.
Dr H.A. Virkler is a licensed psychologist who has been training Christian counselors since 1974, has started 3 Christian counseling centers and has written a number of books and articles that integrate psychology and theology. In addition to teaching, he serves as an informal consultant to several Christian counseling centers, agencies and Christian schools in the West Palm Beach area. In an article he wrote in Baker Encyclopedia of Psychology and Counseling , on Demonic Influence, Sin and Psychopathology pages 326 – 332, he tries to clarify and identify the levels of demonic influence - here's a bunch of excerpts:
“Cosmology…Secular Westerners usually believe in a single-tiered (naturalistic) universe only. Christian Westerners typically believe in a two-tiered universe, with God and other supernatural forces inhabiting the upper story and human beings occupying the lower story. In contrast, most other cultures believe in a three-tiered universe; the middle story represents the sphere in which the interaction between humans and supernatural beings occurs. This is not primarily an external combat between supernatural and natural beings but an interaction that occurs intrapsychically.”
End of excerpt
( T-Bone sidenote: Definition of intrapsychic : being or occurring within the psyche, mind, or personality. The definition of intrapsychic is something that exists in the mind. An example of intrapsychic is a sleeping dream. Existing or taking place within the mind or psyche. Intrapsychic conflict. Within the psyche or mind. Existing or occurring within the mind or psyche.)
Virkler’s article goes on to mention Paul Hiebert (1932 – 2007) who was considered by many to be one of the world's leading missiological anthropologist. “Hiebert developed several theories that widely influenced the study and practice of Christian missions. His model of "critical contextualization" describes a process of understanding and evaluating cultural practices in light of biblical teaching. It is one of the most widely cited models in evangelical doctoral dissertations dealing with contextualization.
The concept of the "excluded middle" argued that most Westerners see the universe as consisting of two tiers - the invisible things of the other world, and the visible things of this world. In this way, they exclude the part in between - namely, the invisible things of this world, and in particular the unseen personal beings, such as angels and demons. Hiebert suggested that non-Westerners are much more likely to accept this "excluded middle" “ –info from the Wikipedia link – click on his name above.
Picking back up on Virkler’s article in Baker Encyclopedia of Psychology and Counseling:
“Hierbert makes the point that this three-tiered cosmology is truer to biblical reality than is the two-tiered one. Christian growth, according to Scripture, occurs as a result of the Holy Spirit living within us. Likewise, Christians struggle “not against flesh and blood, but against the ruler, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms” (Eph. 6:12 NIV). The spiritual weapons and armor described in Ephesians 6: 13-18 refer to cognitive truths that Christians can use to refute the theological mistruths that Satan and his forces attempt to insert into our minds. Thus, according to God’s Word, much of our Christian experience and non-Christians’ experiences as well occur in the middle story.
Diagnostic Implications. The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV; American Psychiatric Association, 1994) contains the most comprehensive description of mental illness available. Psychopathology (mental illness) is conceptualized in a one-tiered universe. Christian counselors usually believe in a two-tiered universe, but because most are trained from a secular perspective their diagnoses often remain functionally one-tiered. Yet, if the three-tiered cosmology is correct, this has significant implications for our conceptualization of psychopathology.
Such a model would suggest that much of what we call abnormal behavior is not simply a result of developmental events occurring at the natural level. Instead, abnormality may be a result of the interaction between developmental events occurring at the natural level and Satan (using a combination of our sin natures, the attraction of the world’s system of thinking, and demonic agents) trying to draw people away from God. Thus a biblical model of illness, both physical and psychological/spiritual illness, suggests that it can come fro disease occurring in the natural realm, sin (the combined effects of our sin nature and the influence of the world’s value system), and demonic forces (often interacting with one or both of these sources).
The Reality and Activity of Demons. In recent years some Christian theologians have attempted to demythologize the Bible’s teaching on demons and demonic involvement in human life or have otherwise characterized it as prescientific, superstitious thinking. However, the New Testament includes more than one hundred references to the existence of demons; it is clear that Jesus taught that demons are real and that they cause a variety of physical and mental disorders…
End of excerpts
I like this article because it got me thinking of a more comprehensive perspective that endeavors to integrate the biblical data with modern psychology in a less dogmatic way than fundamentalists. And by that I mean wierwille’s theology seems to line up with a two-tiered approach to counseling or even just analyzing interpersonal relationships in general; as a follower of TWI, I learned to scrutinize relationships and situations in an overly simplistic breakdown of what is going on – that often it was primarily an external combat between me – a human being against some supernatural force – whether I considered the person I was arguing with as possessed or under some kind of demonic influence.
Virkler’s article presents more options or possible causes – the impasse in argumentative situations might have been over issues in “the middle story” - in other words – intrapsychic - being or occurring within the psyche, mind, or personality of either me or the other person or both of us. Maybe my interpretation of a passage is way off base, or their interpretation is – or both of us are way off – I recently shared on Grease Spot about being a WOW in DC in 1976 and witnessing to a Moonie - I called my little story Clash of the Cultists
- and was responding to Bolshevik’s comment that if the communication between two people uses a lot of cult-speak language, does the mind have the option to even process, interpret, or express other modes of thought? My WOW incident upped the ante for nixing clear communication – when you have BOTH parties trying to communicate in TWO DIFFERENT CULT-SPEAK LANGUAGES … options for either person to process, interpret, or express other modes of thought are probably severely limited…you can read my post > here ....also please bear in mind my previous disclaimer about this topic – I’m merely playing at being an amateur detective long after the fact of when I was involved with TWI…so we can talk all day about discerning of spirits in TWI – but I will usually have a conservative approach and may even dicker over what level of demonic influence was present – I will list the four levels of demonic influence from Virkler’s article in a bit – but just wanted to end my overall view of dealing with the adversary in TWI – quite often the adversary was actually the top dog cult-leader…either wierwille or LCM...only I didn't realize that back then.
…I tend to think part of wierwille’s and LCM’s modus operandi was a red herring tactic – their over-spiritualizations, speculations, blame-shifting, conspiracy theories, and unhealthy fascination with demonology were phony clues and pieces of disinformation whether - it was intentional or not – wound up being misleading or distracting…it would throw anyone off the scent if they were trying to properly assess a situation…the bull$hit of wierwille and LCM would confuse or deceive us by making us believe something that is not true…it’s quite possible – they both had a delusional disorder – that they were not aware of nor acknowledged that they were actually leading people astray – and so they would point their finger at everyone else (whether human or supernatural) as if they were the cause of the issue.
Anyway – picking back up on Virkler’s article:
“Levels of Demonic Influence. Scripture suggests four levels of demonic involvement in human temptation. These levels represent a continuum ranging from no demonic involvement to significant involvement.
No Involvement. Scripture makes it clear that temptations may come from our sinful nature without demonic intervention (Jer. 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; James 1:14,15).
Demonic Temptation…temptation that is demonic in its origin. (Matt. 4:1-11…Acts 5:3…I Chron. 21:1…Eph. 6:10-18).
Demonic Oppression. A more intense level of demonic involvement in human life is called by various authors demonic influence, demonic oppression, demonic subjection, or demonic obsession. Demons are believed to exert considerable influence over a person’s life short of actual possession. Oppression may be a mild form of subjection that goes goes unnoticed for years until a particular event uncovers it. It may also refer to a state in which the person is continually surrounded and harassed by the powers of darkness…
...It could be argued that for the most part symptoms that result from demonic temptation or demonic oppression are not qualitatively different from symptoms that result from our sin natures and the temptation of the world system. It appears that the role of demons in these situations is to intensify the temptations or symptoms coming from those sources rather than to produce unique symptoms. It is primarily in the case of demon possession that some unique symptoms are produced…”
Virkler also refers to Thomas B. WHITE (who is the founder and president of Frontline Ministries, an international ministry that develops citywide prayer movements and offers teaching on spiritual formation, prayer, and spiritual warfare. He holds degrees from San Diego State University and Asbury Theological Seminary) on page 150 of his book The Believer's Guide to Spiritual Warfare White suggests four means by which he believes people become demonically oppressed. These are
1. habitual moral compromise, such as involvement in the occult, nurturing bitterness or hatred
2. persistent sexual sin, or fleshly indulgence,
3. family involvement in the occult.
4. victimization by others (incest, rape, violence, exposure to satanic rituals); or ministry activity that draws attention away from Satan.
And lastly Virkler mentions:
Demonic Possession. In several instances where demon possession is described in Scripture, no specific symptoms are mentioned. When specific symptoms are mentioned they include possessed individuals manifesting supernormal strength; going about naked; being unable to speak, hear, or see; experiencing self-destructive convulsions with symptoms such as rigidity, foaming at the mouth, and teeth grinding; and making statements that suggest that one has supernatural knowledge. Sometimes the symptoms caused by the demon are continuously present. In other instances, the manifestation of the demon’s presence is episodic.
While some persons have questioned whether demon possession continues, many missionaries who work in countries where demonic (idol) worship is prevalent testify that demon possession continues to exist there with symptoms quite similar to the biblical descriptions…Christians debate whether believers can be possessed. A growing number of conservative writers believe that the biblical data do not clearly answer the issue and that therefore we should look to human experience to help us decide it. Many accounts from experienced missionaries around the world and from ministers in the United States who specialize in spiritual warfare ministries assert that possession can occur in believers…
…Some Christian writers have objected to translating ‘daimonizomai’ as demon possessed, preferring instead to use the word ‘demonized’ to refer to those whose symptoms fit into this category. ‘Demonizomai’ means to have a demon, to be possessed by a demon, or to be exercised by or under the control of a demon. Therefore, the translators of both the New American Standard Bible and the New International Version have generally translated the word as demon possessed.
Three objections have been raised to the use of this phrase. First, it connotes to some people the idea of ownership, and Christians, even when they are being demonically harassed, belong to Christ, not to Satan. Second, there is an important difference in the Holy Spirit’s residence within a believer and demonic residence. The Holy Spirit always comes as an invited guest., while Satan and his demons often come uninvited to try to harass or control a person. Third, since the Holy Spirit lives within the believer, it seems conceptually impossible to believe that a demon or demons could live there also.
The first two arguments are valid points. With regard to the third, when Scripture talks about the Holy Spirit or a demonic spirit within a person this is probably a metaphor suggesting influence or control over that person, since human spatial considerations apply to neith God nor demons. Thus there is not an inherent contradiction in recognizing that Satan and his demons may at times try to replace the loving influence the Holy Spirit has on a believer’s personality with their own control or that there may be a struggle between the Holy Spirit and a demon…
…What would a model of mental illness that included the possibility of demonization look like? The following schema proposes eight tentative categories. These eight categories are not assumed to be a full statement of all causes, and they are not assumed to operate independently of each other. Abnormal behavior can be caused by psychopathology from two or more of these categories acting synergistically.
End of excerpts
Virkler's "schema" lists eight theoretical...tentative...or unproven categories as follows:
1. some mental illnesses such as schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, obsessive-compulsive disorder, and attention deficit/hyperactivity disorder appear to have a significant genetic component that predisposes people to have one or more episodes or chronic occurrence of these particular illnesses.
2. People sometimes develop mistaken beliefs as a result of their human finiteness. People may come to mistaken interpretations or mistaken conclusions because they do not see all the data or they do not correctly analyze it.
3. Psychology may also be a result of lack of knowledge about how to deal with situations – whether social, academic, work or marital situations. Lack of skills or knowledge may also keep a person from moving to a new developmental stage – even though this would be chronologically appropriate.
4. Psychopathology may also be the result of lack of awareness of one’s thoughts, feelings, or goals. In this situation, rather than thinking the situation through so that conscious decisions about one’s behavior can be made, internal processes, feelings or goals may be acted out - in the psychology of defense mechanisms and self-control, acting out is the performance of an action considered bad or anti-social. In general usage, the action performed is destructive to self or to others.
5. Another factor that can produce unhealthy or undesirable behavior is our sin nature; that is, our self-centeredness, our desire to be god of our own lives. Our sin nature causes us to take healthy needs or drives (normal needs for food, shelter, and enjoyment) and distort them through overemphasis or misdirection.
6. The traumas that some people experience – emotional abuse, physical abuse, sexual abuse, or some other assault or crisis – can cause psychopathology. Besides the naturally occurring results of these traumas, those who have had many years experience in spiritual warfare consistently say that these kinds of developmental situations regularly become a means of entry for demonic temptation or oppression.
7. Satan is the author of the world’s system of thinking and encourages people to develop mistaken beliefs about what goals they need to reach to achieve happiness (e.g., possessions, fame, power, or pleasure). Satan also encourages people to develop mistaken beliefs about how to reach those goals (e.g., through lying, deception, stealing, or infidelity).
8. In some situations, abnormal behavior may be the result of demon possession. It is not implausible to believe Satan and demons adapt their strategies to the prevailing culture.
Virkler emphasizes that some abnormal behavior may be the result of the synergistic effect of two or more of the above list of eight factors. Virkler gives the example Satan or demons may attack the Christian suffering from major depression and may use the vulnerability caused by the major depression to convince the believer that salvation has been lost or the unpardonable sin was committed or that salvation was never really obtained. Virkler goes on to say treatment with antidepressants alone may be sufficient to remove the vulnerability that enabled Satan to successfully attack, but treatment with antidepressants followed by biblical cognitive therapy to reaffirm the believer’s position in Christ may be an even more thorough treatment for such a person.
…I have expressed elsewhere on Grease Spot Café my personal experience of clinical depression – and this point of Virkler’s really resonated with me. It is in my genetic history – going back as far as I could search to my great grandfather on my dad’s side. I dealt with depression even before TWI involvement – but once I got involved in TWI – the TWI-mindset and lifestyle that I adopted exacerbated my condition…some things just don’t mix well with a harmful and controlling cult
…anyway…I thank God for a loving, patient and well-informed woman like my wife Tonto. I left TWI in 1986 – but it wasn’t until around 1999 that she convinced me to see a board certified psychiatrist…he not only got me to try a few anti-depressants until I found one that worked the best for me but he also got me into cognitive therapy – stuff that I could do myself – found a great book that I’ve shared ideas from on Grease Spot it’s Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy by David Burns ...The Rx helps me to maintain an even keel – made it a lot easier t get out of a mental rut – and the cognitive therapy helps me to steer clear of that mental rut…Don’t know how else to explain it – but without the Rx I find I get into a vicious cycle of self-analysis and can’t seem to figure out what the problem with me is…With the Rx, I’m just not that fixated on self-analysis – and instead devote my attention to solving problems I can fix. Like being less of an a$$hole to my wife and kids and improving my health – I usually walk about 2 miles a day – cut out deserts at night – eat more fiber, drink more water and eat less red meat…I lost over 28 pounds since July of 2021…yeah for me! 
I am not disputing folks who say they are adept at discerning of spirits – or their claims of detecting devil spirits in cult-leaders. Like I said at the beginning – I have ZERO experience in discerning of spirits or any other of the “manifestations” as taught by wierwille – and ZERO expertise in psychological matters.
Since I left TWI, I’ve tried to develop better cognitive skills as well as gain more confidence in my intuition. In general, concerning my thought-life and studies after TWI – I feel like I’ve been taking “remedial classes” – since I was stuck in a pseudo-Christian harmful and controlling cult and did not achieve the level of attainment necessary for me to be able to function along with my contemporaries – i.e., “normal Christians” - whatever that is – since I feel like the TWI-mindset – or groupthink - was like a ball-and-chain that held me back. It was a crippling mental encumbrance that put restrictions on cognitive skills, creativity, feelings, intuition, and personal pursuits.
I’m quite confident my experiences, observations, feelings, studies – both biblical and secular…and analysis…and conclusions are fairly accurate in unraveling the “mystery”, nature and tactics of CERTAIN harmful and controlling cult-leaders. I don’t care how anyone else wants to slice it and dice it and discern devil spirits coming out the wazoo of these bozos…or however one wants to parse out the various levels of demonic influence …I’ll let God be the one to reveal the gory details – if he so chooses at a future time…sometimes I think if I could have seen what really went on “behind the scenes” not just what went on in the motorcoach but what really went on in the hearts of these cult-leaders – I’d probably freak out on how close I came to dancing with the devil.
Edited by T-BoneI know what you're thinking - whatever possessed me to write such a long post...honestly - I don't know...could of been a verbose spirit
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Rocky
Has ANYone on GSC over the decades really had ANY experience with "discerning of spirits" or other "manifestations" as taught by Victor Wierwille? I suspect that the answer is NO, NONE. Even if any have claimed to have such experience or insights, I just don't believe it.
Wierwille told stories. Some true, some not true. At their root, these stories were nothing more and nothing less that ways to describe and frame and understand things (including biblical stories) that may have been read and/or observed. But sincerity (or believing said stories and telling/re-telling them with an authoritative voice) doesn't make them true, factual or in any sense "reality."
They are just ways to communicate a common way to understand things. I don't believe Wierwille was "possessed." He may have been influenced by selfish and likely evil... influences. That's as far as I can go on it.
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James French
Hi Rocky:
Because you have not experienced things spiritually, as the nine manifestations of the holy spirit, does not mean they do not exist, are not available by faith, or have ceased as some people claim. I know many believers who were in The Way, and others that were never in The Way, who have manifested some of the manifestations as described in the written word, 7 in Old Covenant and 9 since the Day of Pentecost. I have learned and operated all nine, and I know others that have also, though extreme minority. The body of Christ majority is in apostasy due to corruption and lack of faith and other factors.
Though unfortunately operating (manifesting) any manifestation is rare in Christianity as majority don't and much was lost in history due to many factors (starting with Constantine and what became the Catholic Church and confusion of manifestations being called "gifts," added by the translators without authority. Since 1975 when I was first exposed to The Way, I have endeavored to learn as much as I can from the written, spoken and revealed Words of God and the holy spirit and its manifestations. I have seen signs, miracles and wonders and so have others.
Way back in 1977 or 1978 a woman came to our house fellowship in a wheel chair, she hadn't walked in 7 years. She heard the teaching and she had faith for healing and said; "I want to walk tonight" Immediately everyone without verbal direction by anyone, but as inspired by the holy spirit immediately started silently speaking in tongues immediately for her to walk, which she did. The house leader assisted her by helping her up with his hand and arm. She walked for the first time in 7 years! She stayed with us for one or two weeks and was a bundle of joy, cleaning the dishes and walking etc.
I have done and seen incredible things, including God's protection a multitude of times from evil people. One instance in 1977 I was believing for a six foot hedge of protection which one attacker hit at exactly six feet as he hit an invisible force field and stopped dead from a full run towards me as I turned to look at him as I heard his feet running fast towards me. I was sick at the time with a bad flu as he had hassled me a minute before asking me for spare change and cigarettes to which I said "Stay away from me," and I walked away towards a store as I was in need for food. I told people for decades about it and said "He ran away faster than he ran towards me." Actually about a year and a half ago God informed me that the man actually de-materialized and was translated somewhere else by informing me of the true facts. At the time I told God I don't want to fight this guy. I have since realized that God and maybe my brain also was protecting me from something so incredible as de-materialization is. But I shall never forget when he hit that invisible wall, a hedge of protection.
Last year in on April 14 God protected me by stopping a car from running me over which stopped 1/2 inch from my knees. My feet were under the hood of this car. The power company was working cutting trees and so one lane was closed. I was walking and there is no sidewalk, as I live in a forested area. The car was approaching slowly and I thought it was a friend of mine's car, but could not see the person as the sun was reflecting from the windshield. I stood there thinking it was my friend and was going to walk to the side of the car and talk. It was mistaken identity. All of a sudden the insane driver speed up, I had no time to move out of the way, I was frozen in place. Even a race car driver could not stop at that speed within 1/2 inch of my knees. God prevented possible serious injury. The crew chief of the men working on the power lines saw the whole thing and said, "I thought you knew each other." Everyone was shocked including myself, we failed thereby to get the license number. That maniac should have been arrested and his license taken away. God will take care of him.
I and many believers have experienced discerning of spirits and other types of revelation received in feelings, words, visually, heard etc. It happens frequently and is not my imagination or mental illness such as hallucinations or delusions of grandeur etc. I have attended to two believers in intensive care who were at death's door, and who recovered, the first in 1986 and the other in 2018. I prayed intensely for both etc. I could go on about my own healings, revelations etc. You either believe The Word or you don't? To the degree you trust God and in what areas is to the degree that you see amazing things. I suggest you rethink your position of unbelief and doubt? It is unfortunate that most Christians do not walk by the spirit and see God's incredible power manifested in life!
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Bolshevik
De-materialization? Like this?
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Bolshevik
This is good I'm glad you brought this up. You were able to use for force fields in sort of a "HE SHALL NOT PASS" scenario . . . but at the same time had the flu. It seems you could have deflected viruses too if necessary. But this didn't happen, apparently.
Some other folks here have been very adamant about using a "God-Given immune system". Do you happen to understand what these folks are getting at?
Perhaps you could shed some light on the matter by explaining how you were able to protect yourself in one area, but not another?
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Rocky
My understanding of the premise, as you stated it in the title and first post, for this thread is that Victor Wierwille was "loaded with demons."
You then proceeded to tell the story of some incidents. You did your best to communicate your point, using the framework of your understanding and associated language.
My response was intended to reframe your points using different words/language. It is not my intent to argue theology with you about what is or isn't available two thousand years ago, or 40 years ago or now.
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T-Bone
Hi James French,
The experiences you talk about DIFFER GREATLY from mine AND the TWI-followers I knew as well as what I have seen and heard in all the areas I served – I was in TWI from 1974 to 1986, went WOW and was in the way corps – and for 12 years of my involvement I served in New York, Wash. DC, Colorado, Indiana, Louisiana, Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin, Ohio, and Texas.
I say the experiences you’ve mentioned are TOTALLY UNLIKE mine, partly because I find your narrative incredulous and partly because your premise is based on faulty teachings from the Power For Abundant Living class.
My experiences:
I took PFAL in 1974 and at the end of session 12, I followed the instructions of the teacher – I stood up, and moved my lips, tongue and mouth and made-up words. TWI calls that speaking in tongues. I call it learned behaviorism. I could do that before I took PFAL – I use to fake oriental and Russian sounding gibberish in High School as part of my class-clown shtick. As far as speaking in tongues goes – you might want to check out The Reluctant Skeptic website - I challenge you to HONETSLY answer the 10 hard questions - click on that link > The Reluctant Skeptic: 10 hard questions about tongues ...so I faked it...and I've heard some others admit now that they faked it too... after all there is a lot of pressure from everyone running the class that it's a big deal! And I'm not saying everyone faked it...but going on the limitations mentioned in I Corinthians 12 - not EVERONE can or will speak in tongues.
I think “speaking in tongues” was a lot easier to fake for many folks in TWI, compared to interpretation of tongues and prophesy – because the tongues-gibberish didn’t have to make sense…I’ve NEVER WITNESSED anyone in TWI ACTUALLY DO the other six – the revelation and power manifestations ! Though we’ve all heard talk about it – but talk is cheap – and misleading…and MATTER OF FACT, what I HAVE WITNESSED and HEARD were enough “manifestation misfires” to make me think wierwille and martindale were phonies...there's been some Grease Spotters here who have worked very closely alongside wierwille and martindale and they will also confirm they've never seen these two "operate" the big 6 (revelation and power manifestations)...here's just a couple of "misfires" that always come to mind when we get into talking about what big phonies these bozos were:
1.) A lady in my Twig with a misshapen foot from birth went to Camp Gunnison because wierwille was there for some big event. She asked him to heal her foot. He couldn’t do it. She came back to my Twig crying – telling me wierwille essentially blamed the failure on her unbelief…gee what happened to the grace of God like in Mark 9:24 "I do believe; help my unbelief!" and what about Ephesians 3:20 "Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think" that right there tells me God is NOT limited by my believing.
2.) At an early 80’s Rock of Ages, Ted F. collapses on stage during a performance – martindale rushes over and begins ministering to him – we could all hear what was said because Ted was still holding a microphone…martindale is going on and on praying for Ted’s heart and blah blah blah…when he stops praying, Ted says quietly “It’s my knee, Craig”… that became a living meme on the byways of ROA. I remember seeing musician Skip M. near one of the family tables “reliving” the parts of both Ted and martindale and the folks on his picnic blanket were cracking up.
~ ~ ~ ~
Some doctrinal issues:
I also wanted to address some dubious premises in your posts…one is your idea that all believers can operate all 9 manifestations…I disagree.
I don’t want to give you the idea that I think the manifestations are no longer operative. I merely challenge wierwille’s ENTIRE body of work on the holy spirit/Holy Spirit – which it seems pretty obvious to me you are basing your position on what he taught.
The Holy Spirit has been another favorite study project of mine…In my opinion wierwille butchers up the Greek syntax, and is often mistaken on who a pronoun refers to in I Corinthians 12, 13 and 14 wierwille ignores Paul distinguishing between the genuine speaking in tongues (plural) and the gibberish counterfeit of pagan ecstatic speech, speaking in a tongue (singular)…an example of wierwille mistaking who the pronoun refers to see - “But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.” I Corinthians 12:11 if you’ll remember wierwille taught the “he” in verse 11 referred to the believer – but you’ll find that translators interpret it to mean The Holy Spirit – God – by capitalizing “He”. Feel free to click on that verse/link I just gave to see alternate versions – which will bear me out on the point that it’s the prerogative of The Holy Spirit – NOT the believer – to distribute…online commentaries of this passage – like I Corinthians 12:11 commentaries <please click that previous link – these commentaries will also bear me out – besides the commentaries I have at home – printed and digital.
You have correctly stated “Holy spirit is not dependent on Way classes” – I agree. the Holy Spirit is our tutor as seen in passages like I John 2:27 “But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you everything you need to know, and what he teaches is true—it is not a lie. So just as he has taught you, remain in fellowship with Christ.”
…it is presumptuous to think we need anyone teach us about the manifestations…there is no precedence for that anywhere in the Bible…I also think it’s kind of egotistical to assume we each have all nine – when I Corinthians 12:12 and following emphasizes the contribution of ALL believers with differing gifts, ministries, abilities, and focuses on unity – a team effort.
Much of what you said reflects exactly what wierwille taught in the Advanced Class…This is ironic to me – since you base your “discernment”, criticism…assessment of wierwille using the same dubious criterion that he promoted in PFAL and the Advanced Class
For brevity’s sake I will refer to my post in the > 2nd Wave of Returning to PFAL thread where I mentioned the fourfold insidious recipe of PFAL - which is wierwille’s signature intuition, fundamentalism, spiritualism, and Gnosticism.
You seem to rely on conspiracy theories - and some statements you’ve made are very disturbing – like your statement “The seed talker may have been a seed planted by the enemy? After all, practically all denominations and non-denominations have been infiltrated by the Jesuits and other "seed boys and girls." “
FYI demonology is the NON-SCIENTIFIC study of demons or beliefs about demons, and the hierarchy of demons. “NON-SCIENTIFIC study” is another way of saying the study does NOT involve careful observation, does NOT apply rigorous skepticism about what is observed, does NOT formulate hypotheses via induction based on observations, does NOT involve experimental and MEASUREMENT-BASED TESTING of deductions drawn from the hypotheses, and does NOT refine or eliminate hypotheses based on the experimental findings.
For TWI-believers we all thought wierwille was in his element whenever he taught on this stuff. One of the most bizarre and unsettling topics was his teaching on the unforgiveable sin - being born again of the wrong seed. As the proof-text for this he used a passage like Matthew 12: 31-37 to “inform” us that there is only one sin that God will not forgive and the passages in John 8: 12 – 59 where Jesus said “…I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father…Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.” wierwille zeroed in on the two fathers mentioned by Jesus and ignoring Jesus’ use of figurative language he decided to double down on dogmatic fundamentalism. wierwille emphatically stated it was literal – which meant that there were only two sources of “spiritual seed” (whatever that is) supplied by two diametrically opposed fathers – one father is God the creator of the heavens and the Earth – and the other father is the devil.
Theologians as far back as Augustine have interpreted John 8:44 FIGURATIVELY – meaning Jesus’ enemies were children of the devil BY IMITATION. A similar figurative interpretation is held by many modern theologians like Albert Barnes, Matthew Poole, F.L. Godet, H.A. Ironside, William Kelly, R.C.H. Lenski, Arthur W. Pink, J.C. Ryle, R.V.G. Tasker, and W.E. Vine ( see also the free online resource John 8:44 online commentaries ).
For someone like wierwille who boasted of the great accuracy and integrity of the Bible and his in-depth analysis of it as well as his supposedly great experience in discerning of spirits and in casting out devil spirits – he offered very little details on exactly how one would commit the unforgiveable sin and get born again of the wrong seed. In my opinion this is one of the most questionable and treacherous doctrines of wierwille. A doctrine that is so fraught with psychological stress that the session on the unforgivable sin was pulled from the PFAL class proper, and was only available for viewing sometime later – after a new student “successfully” completed the PFAL class (i.e. they supposedly spoke in tongues) and has been reviewing all the class material and attending Twig Fellowships for a while...We can only speculate why wierwille yanked it from the class proper – my guess is that there were some unintended consequences...maybe he was aware of some folks having issues with thinking they might have committed the unforgivable sin... I remember reading on Grease Spot someone shared of a person they knew who was convinced they committed the unforgivable sin – so they committed suicide... ...how awful !!!! such tragedy and destruction wrought by wierwille's twisted doctrines!
A fascinating relevance to Gnosticism’s maxim of spirit good / matter evil correlates to wierwille’s body, soul, and spirit teaching – the erroneous trichotomy view of a Christian . wierwille defined soul as breath-life - which is an organic function of the body (matter) which is evil. sounds like a lot of double-talk to me...a combination of sense and nonsense...
I also recall something – I think I heard martindale as one of the first TWI-leaders to refer to natural men and women (who do not have spirit) by the derogatory term “empties floating by”. Basically, this trichotomy view of a Christian goes against the biblical view that men and women were created in God’s image. The Bible does NOT suggest we lost God’s image in the Fall… An interesting study is a look into the Hebrew definition of “death” – not that I will go into great detail here – but you’ll find basically it means “separation” rather than annihilation or total obliteration – i.e., cease to exist. That human beings still retain the image of God – though it may now be tarnished is suggested in such passages as Genesis 9:6 and James 3:9 in which both refer to a time long after the Fall in Genesis 3.
in wierwille’s “expertise” of the Advanced Class tinged with Gnosticism, speculations and dubious theories - we found out about all the categories of devil spirits...the fully initiated are the elite who deserve to have influence and authority over others...part of the big hype of the Advanced Class is the mystique of conspiracies – the Illuminati, One World Government, the wrong-seed boys running everything,..part of the attraction to conspiracies may have something to do with what psychologist Ello Martino said:
"humans have a need for control and order when distressed. Fear, uncertainty, and feelings of being out of control can lead people to search for patterns and meaning in people's behavior as a way to make sense of the chaos and attempt to navigate the fear of the unknown. This is an evolutionary adaptive mechanism designed to keep us alive"
From Psychology Today - This Is Why You Are Attracted to Conspiracy Theories
Besides the fact that wierwille’s demonology is a NON-SCIENTIFIC study – I will also point out – if you haven’t realized it already - his demonology - as well as his study of holy spirit/Holy Spirit is NOT biblical. A BIBLICAL and CRITICAL analysis of the logic in wierwille’s Great Principle “God who is spirit can only speak to what He is which is spirit…God’s Spirit teaches His creation in you, which is now your spirit, and your spirit teaches your mind…and etc. “ will show it’s severely flawed. What about God talking to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden? What about God talking to Moses and writing the ten commandments with His finger? What about Balaam’s donkey talking to the prophet? What about God putting a futuristic dream of world powers in the mind of Nebuchadnezzar? And what about God telling Daniel the dream He put in Nebuchadnezzar's mind and then tells him what the dream meant? What about Jesus, Peter, James and John on the mount of transfiguration and a voice came out of the cloud “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!”? These are all just a few biblical passages that exposes the error of wierwille’s nonsensical principle...it's almost laughable how wierwille had such a trivial concept of God - and he passed that on to us poor suckers who bought into wierwille's confining...stifling...trivializing theological box.
And if one dared to think outside wierwille's theological box - they were condemned...ridiculed! "How dare you doubt the man of God and the rightly-divided Word that he taught...why you're a cop out...nothing more than a rank unbeliever...a spiritually hitchhiker. You're probably not even born again...You phony!"
In closing – I wanted to address some of the last things you said:
“…I could go on about my own healings, revelations etc. You either believe The Word or you don't? To the degree you trust God and in what areas is to the degree that you see amazing things. I suggest you rethink your position of unbelief and doubt? It is unfortunate that most Christians do not walk by the spirit and see God's incredible power manifested in life!”
Looking at your profile, I see you joined Grease Spot Café on June 22, 2002. That was some 20 years ago. I joined on January 19, 2006 – some 16 years ago. I venture to say my beliefs have changed…expanded…deepened…my faith in God has grown and enriched my Bible study in that short time – my beliefs or the beliefs of other Grease Spotters may not exactly line up with your opinions on something....and some of what you expressed seems to reflect the dogmatic and pompous criterion of wierwille/PFAL/TWI
I find your false dichotomy “You either believe The Word or you don't” off-putting, condescending and manipulative. It seems like you are stuck in a PFAL-time capsule...Maybe you should rethink your position on some of the things you've posted.
Perhaps you’d be interested in a civil discussion here or start another thread to honestly talk...listen...exchange ideas...clarify...explore...reevaluate... if everyone thinks alike - maybe that means no one is really thinking...hence the value of discourse and the variety of viewpoints!
...I look forward to your reply
Edited by T-Bonelooking for an editor adept at discerning of typos
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Mark Sanguinetti
In the biblical teaching book written by Mark Sanguinetti. One of the 16 chapters covers 1 Corinthians chapter 12. Here is the section of this chapter that is in harmony with your above quote.
https://christianreconciliation.net/book-oursaviorjesuschrist.html
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T-Bone
No offense Mark, but I don't think we're talking about the same thing...you are basically saying the same thing wierwille said in PFAL when he misinterpreted I Cor. 12:11 to mean "distributing severally as he (the believer) wills." what I expressed in my post was that God chooses what to distribute - and it's to whomever He chooses...that's a big difference!
Please click on this link > I Corinthians 12:11 and read all the different versions of that passage...it seems pretty obvious in each version that God is the one doing the distributing as He desires...it has NOTHING to do with a believer having more faith and desire!
Edited by T-Bonerevision
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waysider
In the first twig I was involved with, there was a young lady, still in high school, who was missing an arm. If I recall correctly, she was born like that. We'll call her Suzie for the sake of simplicity. She was initially attracted to The Way by fellow classmates who told her that complete healing was possible. Now, there was always this undercurrent of "believing" for Suzie's arm to be completely restored. People spoke in tongues for Suzie's arm, cast out "doubting spirits", ministered to her, counceled her on "the law of believing", encouraged her to become more involved in the twig workings. She became more and more frustrated and depressed as time elapsed because her "healing" just wasn't happening. Then, her father caught wind of what was going on and was, to put it mildly, furious. He had spent years teaching her to accept her current condition and to adjust to the realities of life as a disabled person. He forbade her to continue associating with The Way and I never heard from her again. When I look back on my life and reflect on things I'm ashamed of, I have to tell you that this is way up there toward the top of the list.
To all the Suzies who crossed my path in The Way, I offer you this humble apology. I surely never meant to hurt anyone.
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Mark Sanguinetti
What I am agreeing with you is with the above statement. Regarding the 1 Corinthians 12:11 having a capital letter at the end of this verse. Many bible versions do not use a capital for "he". For example, the New International Version.
But at least one newer version does translate this verse with a capital letter for "He". The New King Version:
It is both. At the start God through Jesus Christ inspires and teaches his followers, while distributing to them through the Holy Spirit. Then followers of Christ determine what they will do in their earthly ministry. We are not puppets on a string. That is the devil who wants to do that often through deception.
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T-Bone
Sorry to belabor this particular point, Mark – though I agree with you on the idea that we are not puppets on a string…Scripture-wise, up to this point (I Corinthians 12:11) it would be premature to suggest that Paul means “It is both” in that verse. I say premature because here the verse doesn’t concern the proper time – when both the Holy Spirit and the believer are “in sync” – to work well together, to be in agreement, or match well with someone else – though that is “the game plan”.
If anything, I Cor. 12:11 stresses WHO formulates “the game plan” – it’s The Holy Spirit – if I were to elaborate on why I think Paul is emphasizing that, I’d say maybe he wants to prevent someone from being too hasty…impetuous…impulsive…egotisical…striving to be an all-star player instead of a team-player…This merely repeats what Paul had already said in verse 6:
And there are [distinctive] ways of working [to accomplish things], but it is the same God who produces all things in all believers [inspiring, energizing, and empowering them]. I Corinthians 12:6 The Amplified Bible
And to rehash what I got into with my previous post - correcting wierwille’s erroneous teaching that each believer can do all nine - “energized by the same car battery” – as wierwille put it in PFAL – reducing THE Holy Spirit to an inanimate rechargeable power source for an automobile. In that metaphor, it implies the person driving is the one calling the shots – the car battery has no will of its own – no say in the matter. It may be a convenient metaphor to shoehorn his misinterpretation into the topic – but it’s foreign and not supported by Scripture.
Paul taught that EACH believer had a spiritual gift – in I Corinthians 12:7 NASB it’s called “manifestation” “But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.” A manifestation – or "a detailed disclosure of the Spirit. One of the ways the Holy Spirit makes Himself known is through believers using their spiritual gifts" is what The Moody Bible Commentary says of v.7.
The Moody Bible Commentary goes on to say that the Spirit gives gifts to each believer (v.11) based on His sovereign determination – NOT on the believer’s asking for it. At the end of chapter 12, Paul asked a series of rhetorical questions – each anticipating a negative response – so in verse 13 it says “…we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body…and we were all given the one Spirit to drink” but not ALL speak with tongues (verse 30) – so tongues cannot be THE sign of the baptism in the Spirit.
Chapter 12 ends with “But earnestly desire the higher gifts” (ESV) – which is a command in light of I Corinthians 14: 1, 12 “ Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy… So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church.” But does not contradict I Corinthians 12: 11, 18 “All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills... But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose.”
~ ~ ~ ~
Edited by T-BoneEnd of referring to The Moody Bible Commentary
earnestly desire the best editor
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