Do we, here at GSC, have a general consensus that Victor Wierwille was a con artist?

[Bolshevik]

3 hours ago, waysider said:

Maybe it was a combination of both... a man with the ability to swindle, stumbling into unforeseen opportunity.

 

1 hour ago, chockfull said:

Engine interesting perspective cool thx for sharing.  The permeating flaws makes sense.

I don’t buy that he “fell” into taping piffle.  He spent a fair amount of time and one trip getting a remote doctorate degree that specialized in homiletics and the art of influencing people through speech.

Then he refined that in a rebel theologian image to appeal to hippies because the Ohio farmers were semi interested in his stolen classes but returned to their churches.

Then he made a power play on both coasts to usurp local ministers and their followings.

It was a planned initiative.  WOW right?

 

 

Preparation meets opportunity, right?

I think that's a very interesting question.  I've heard many stories at HQ how VPW just went around starting things.  He never saw them through.  Others did it for him.

 

If he was damaged as and infant . . . he then adapted a different mode of life for survival based around that psychological amputation . . . he was then practiced in a way to do things and seized opportunities as they arose.  If he didn't do PFAL he would have done something else . . . more evil, less evil, but still evil.

He just wouldn't have planned to do things the way rest of us might plan a task . . . because he was internally . . . different than the majority. 

[engine]

5 hours ago, chockfull said:

 

I don’t buy that he “fell” into taping piffle.  He spent a fair amount of time and one trip getting a remote doctorate degree that specialized in homiletics and the art of influencing people through speech.

Then he refined that in a rebel theologian image to appeal to hippies because the Ohio farmers were semi interested in his stolen classes but returned to their churches.

Then he made a power play on both coasts to usurp local ministers and their followings.

It was a planned initiative.  WOW right?

He didn't "fall" into it, but I don't think he planned anything much. He put the class together over a decade or so? Taught it to Adults. Got discouraged because the adults  (Midwesterners!) wouldn't get onboard. Taped it because Dave Anderson pushed him to (Vpw a visionary?? Nope. He couldn't even see the value of multiple classes running with with multiple income streams being generated at the same time). He took it to the younger folks somehow, found out about the hippies East and West- tapped into them with the class, and then it spread like wildfire. From what I have read, it was Del Duncan that told VPW to take over the West. At a big meeting out West Duncan got ol' vpw to get onstage and told him, esesentially, to sieze it. Tell them things are changing. So, vpw gets up there, said they were combining West with East. Then it became Way West and Way East, I think. (need Ralph).

Yes, and he donned the garb and played the role of an unorthodox Preacher. I think that was about all he could figure out. After that everything moved fast fast fast. I don't think anyone back then could keep up with the growth- it overtook them at HQ. He got a Motorcoach. Then, a plane. 

Like any good salesman vpw (1) believed 100% in his product, and (2) was enthusiastic about it, and that assuredly helped it sell. 

I saw bootleg copies of piffle a few years back. I watched a couple of random sessions and the opening session 1 for about ten minutes each. I have to tell you, the guy was good, really good, and it was easy to see how young, lost folk could  get sold and sell out to all of it back in the early 70's. Just look at me! 10th corpse!

Well, I just don't see that he ever intended to con folks because he was not smart enough like that- he used fear and bullying and intimidation. Probably one of the worst tactics in the corpse was yelling at us, dressing us all down until we felt shame and being less than. Then, he (Craig et al, too) let us stew in that for a a day, then get us all together later on and love us up real nice....ooooh- all warm and glowing now. I think I read where that's a common play of an abuser, and a lot of folks had been abused (physically or verbally or emotionally) before getting in the Way and so that felt normal.

Just can't see that he had that kind of foresight. Thx.

Edited February 24, 2022 by engine

[Rocky]

14 hours ago, engine said:

I don't think that he was smart enough to be a con man.

What exactly does that mean? How smart does one have to be in order to be considered a con man? (Both are rhetorical questions)

There are different types of intelligence. 

 

14 hours ago, waysider said:

a man with the ability to swindle, stumbling into unforeseen opportunity.

He had some kind ability to be able to exploit said opportunities.

[Rocky]

6 hours ago, engine said:

I just don't see that he ever intended to con folks because he was not smart enough like that

Again, WTH are you talking about? He was clever. Whether he had a genius IQ or not doesn't seem relevant.

What is a con ARTIST (the subject of this thread). Someone who manipulates people and convinces them to do/believe what he/she wants the mark to do/believe. How did he not have that motive and ability?

"Smart enough?" doesn't seem at all relevant.

Edited February 25, 2022 by Rocky

[engine]

9 hours ago, Rocky said:

"Smart enough?" doesn't seem at all relevant.

I'll try and elaborate a little then to clarify.

I don't think he was savvy, shrewd, or perceptive in the way a con man (the ones I've met) are and need to be. The way their minds work, to me, seems to be particular type that sizes folks up and the opportunities they may afford in a mtter of minutes, and how to manipulate them. Geer has that kind of mind to me. 

Did it end up as a con? Yes, but perhaps it morphed into something like that because of his own flaws. And the flaws of Howard Allen (another big drinker), and others. 

I also don't think a man like him would waste all that time, a decade?, developing a class to a point where folks like Peter J. Wade and Dave Anderson and others put lots of effort into it to tape it. They would not be  "OK" with the intent to pull a massive con.

So, I don't think he or any of them had the foresight to see the opportunity that the Class would offer them as far as money and power. I could very well be wrong, Rocky. Maybe I'm still conned.

Like Waysider said, he stumbled into it. He was a swindler in that we did not get, at least I didn't, all that they said God has for us. Not even close. 

The attachement is how I see it (by Ralph). RalphDubofskySummation.pdf

Better go or I'll go off topic.

 

 

Edited February 25, 2022 by engine

[Bolshevik]

9 hours ago, Rocky said:

Again, WTH are you talking about? He was clever. Whether he had a genius IQ or not doesn't seem relevant.

What is a con ARTIST (the subject of this thread). Someone who manipulates people and convinces them to do/believe what he/she wants the mark to do/believe. How did he not have that motive and ability?

"Smart enough?" doesn't seem at all relevant.

I think it's obvious that some people can easily influence or manipulate others and have no idea that they are doing it . . . They just take it for granted.  They think it's normal.

It's not all about cunning, intelligence (cognitive or emotional), or even awareness.

People in a different reality and make decisions for reasons that don't occur to others.  VPW was or became the center of a cult, the center of a fantasy world.  His motivation was obtaining supply.  Like an animal, he went where the food was.

 

 

 

It could be noted narcissists and other Cluster B's can pick up on facial expressions, body language cues, better than most.  That is from years of practice, born of necessity.

[Rocky]

7 hours ago, engine said:

He was a swindler

Perhaps you're making a distinction where there isn't necessarily one.

Perhaps you've more narrowly defined, in your mind, what a con artist is. Believe what you want to believe. In the framework you seem to have, I can't argue your distinction. But is it really relevant? Is the point of this discussion to see who's right about Victor Wierwille? Or is it to elucidate an understanding of our experience for readers, some of whom had similar experiences and may decide to re-evaluate said experiences? It's not for me to say you're wrong or right. I just understand the issue differently than you, apparently.

The definition of a swindler:

swindle - Swindler and swindle are from German Schwindler, "promoter of wild schemes; cheat."

My understanding is that Wierwille didn't explicitly reveal (articulate) his motives for CONvincing us to join his subculture, but after years of experience and reflection on his conduct and ours, we have been able to discern that he had such undisclosed motives.

I wonder, dear friend, have you read Maria Konnikova's book? 

[Rocky]

On 2/24/2022 at 9:58 AM, Bolshevik said:

Preparation meets opportunity, right?

So it seems apparent. 

[Twinky]

Looks like an interesting book, Rocky.  Been browsing it in the Open & Read Me bit.

[chockfull]

Engine I think I get your perspective perhaps VPW was so 100% narcissistic that it was not necessarily an orchestrated con.  
 

He was just living in his own little universe of the James Dean teacher from the Midwest that the hippies could go visit for summer school.

However, buying equipment for and starting a printing press?  That’s a fair bit of foresight there to be truly seat of the pants.

Ralphs summaries are cool he hasn’t been on here in a minute.

[Rocky]

11 hours ago, engine said:

The attachement is how I see it (by Ralph).

That recitation of historical points/event doesn't seem to address the issue of Victor Wierwille's state of mind as it relates to being a con artist, at all.

[Bolshevik]

2 hours ago, chockfull said:

. . .

However, buying equipment for and starting a printing press?  That’s a fair bit of foresight there to be truly seat of the pants.

. . .

We must look at his unclear actions in light of his clear actions. . . . 

He certainly could have started a business on a whim.  I'm sure it happens all the time.  Most fail.  Some don't.

For every successful con how many fail?

[waysider]

10 hours ago, Bolshevik said:

We must look at his unclear actions in light of his clear actions. . . . 

Note to self:  Mark all the clears (c) and unclears (u) in my copy of "The Way: Living In Love".

[Bolshevik]

11 hours ago, waysider said:

Note to self:  Mark all the clears (c) and unclears (u) in my copy of "The Way: Living In Love/Wondurland".

Literal according to usage.  Shared fantasy.

[waysider]

1 hour ago, Bolshevik said:

Shared fantasy

Like Fantasy Island except it's Fantasy Cornfield.

 

"The gas pumps, Boss, the gas pumps!"

[Bolshevik]

58 minutes ago, waysider said:

Like Fantasy Island except it's Fantasy Cornfield.

 

"The gas pumps, Boss, the gas pumps!"

Job 38:22

Scripture build up.

[chockfull]

On 2/25/2022 at 7:19 PM, Bolshevik said:

We must look at his unclear actions in light of his clear actions. . . . 

He certainly could have started a business on a whim.  I'm sure it happens all the time.  Most fail.  Some don't.

For every successful con how many fail?

I think we can all feel for Bolsh a little here.  

Obviously when he was a child and his head was soft someone dropped an orange book on his head and it left a permanent dent.

The Word interpreting itself is the amazing long con.

I was just too dumb as a Corpse grad.  I should have pointed out that if the Word was powerful enough to interpret itself it should have no problem promoting itself, moving itself and educating itself.

Shouldn't need a faux military org like Way Corps.  Or a sea org of indentured minimum wage servants.  Or any other group of mass means to an end.

 

[Bolshevik]

2 hours ago, chockfull said:

I think we can all feel for Bolsh a little here.  

Obviously when he was a child and his head was soft someone dropped an orange book on his head and it left a permanent dent.

The Word interpreting itself is the amazing long con.

I was just too dumb as a Corpse grad.  I should have pointed out that if the Word was powerful enough to interpret itself it should have no problem promoting itself, moving itself and educating itself.

Shouldn't need a faux military org like Way Corps.  Or a sea org of indentured minimum wage servants.  Or any other group of mass means to an end.

 

I think there's whole documentaries about this guy named Hitler.  Ran around doing things that made no sense.  People saw in him thoughts he didn't have.  So a few followed.  A few things were done.  Many projects were left on the table.

[waysider]

Mike Godwin has entered the chat.

[Bolshevik]

1 hour ago, waysider said:

Mike Godwin has entered the chat.

Perhaps.

Both VPW and Hitler are suspected of having similar mental conditions.  Much more work has been done on one of them.

It's common as far as I understand for victims to ascribe similar traits to the predator as they themselves.   Meaning we often think that someone like VPW would reason the same way most of us would.  I do not think that is the case.  We are not all the same inside.  The con game is made easier for some because they are not the same inside.

[chockfull]

Sorry for teasing Bolsh of course we are different and that is great.

I was just struck by the ultimate con - the Bible DIY.

Do it yourself videos are all the rage.  You can learn how to do anything.  And the best DIY videos earn tons of YouTube watch and subscribers resulting in a large cash flow payout.

VPW borrowed Bullingers keys to how the Bible interprets itself and used that with all his homiletic ability to sell Bible DIY to the world.

Do-It-Yourself

i think that has to be VPWs best con of all.

[Bolshevik]

29 minutes ago, chockfull said:

Sorry for teasing Bolsh of course we are different and that is great.

I was just struck by the ultimate con - the Bible DIY.

Do it yourself videos are all the rage.  You can learn how to do anything.  And the best DIY videos earn tons of YouTube watch and subscribers resulting in a large cash flow payout.

VPW borrowed Bullingers keys to how the Bible interprets itself and used that with all his homiletic ability to sell Bible DIY to the world.

Do-It-Yourself

i think that has to be VPWs best con of all.

I gotcha, that makes sense.  Biblical Keys to Undermining and DIY totally relate. 

But I don't think all DIY's necessarily always seek pleasure in the suffering of others, as if it were food and water.   That's one way VPW was different.

 

 

 

 

[Sunesis]

Oh yes.  A false prophet,  Satan's angels masquerade as angels of light.  (This is a bad paraphrase).

[Twinky]

  Hey, Sunesis!  Long time no see!

[Sunesis]

Hi Twinky!  It has been awhile...  Hope you are well.