Do we, here at GSC, have a general consensus that Victor Wierwille was a con artist?

[Rocky]

We have, over the two decades of GSC's online life, quibbled about when he started (from the start, or later perhaps), but my recollection is that it is generally accepted that he was indeed a CON ARTIST.

The question then becomes, what goes on inside the mind of a con artist?

Curiosity Stream (dot com) is an online provider of MANY research/documentary videos. A subscription for a year can be had for $20 or less. I logged on this evening and found a new series, Inside the Mind of a Con Artist.

Some of you might be interested in checking it out.

[Bolshevik]

Sorry, haven't seen the video.

con art·ist

noun

INFORMAL

1. a person who cheats or tricks others by persuading them to believe something that is not true.

    

    

   By the above definition?   Penn and Teller would do that for entertainment and educational purposes, wouldn't they?  Unless they aren't cheating?

    

   cheat

   /CHēt/

   verb

    

   1. 1.

      act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination.

      "she always cheats at cards"

       
   2. avoid (something undesirable) by luck or skill.

       

       

      If we're looking at cheating as VPW's avoidance of reality to stay in his comforting fantasy to avoid his internal suffering, yeah, he was a con artist.  He likely wasn't playing by the rules the majority play by.

       

[waysider]

There was a poster here, years ago, who gave account of seeing VPW turn his "spiritual anger" off and on at the drop of a hat. In other words, the "spiritually angry" guy was a character he played. He was an actor. He knew what he was doing and had full control of it. So, yeah, the guy was a con artist (among other things).

[Bolshevik]

17 minutes ago, waysider said:

There was a poster here, years ago, who gave account of seeing VPW turn his "spiritual anger" off and on at the drop of a hat. In other words, the "spiritually angry" guy was a character he played. He was an actor. He knew what he was doing and had full control of it. So, yeah, the guy was a con artist (among other things).

One second to mourn

Two seconds to celebrate

Standard practice in TWI is that emotions are not real.  Leadership often bragged about this skill of transition, showing it off.

I would interpret your description as VPW did not feel what others feel.  That does lend to acting, because there was no transition between emotions to feel.  I would question his sanity, though, and how much he knew about what he did.

[waysider]

54 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

One second to mourn

Two seconds to celebrate

Standard practice in TWI is that emotions are not real.  Leadership often bragged about this skill of transition, showing it off.

I would interpret your description as VPW did not feel what others feel.  That does lend to acting, because there was no transition between emotions to feel.  I would question his sanity, though, and how much he knew about what he did

This is spot on.

 

He was not what is known as a method actor. In method acting, the actor, relaxes and becomes a kind of blank slate that can experience the emotions of the character they are playing. It's a process, for sure. Wierwille, on the other hand, was more of what would be known as an action based actor. In action based acting, if you want to appear happy, you smile. If you want to appear sad, you frown, and so on. You don't need to actually experience the emotions you are projecting. Wierwille was very good at this and fully aware of what he was doing, without actually experiencing the emotions he was portraying. That's what con artists do. They can't afford the luxury of experiencing the emotions of their marks.

[Bolshevik]

16 minutes ago, waysider said:

This is spot on.

 

He was not what is known as a method actor. In method acting, the actor, relaxes and becomes a kind of blank slate that can experience the emotions of the character they are playing. It's a process, for sure. Wierwille, on the other hand, was more of what would be known as an action based actor. In action based acting, if you want to appear happy, you smile. If you want to appear sad, you frown, and so on. You don't need to actually experience the emotions you are projecting. Wierwille was very good at this and fully aware of what he was doing, without actually experiencing the emotions he was portraying. That's what con artists do. They can't afford the luxury of experiencing the emotions of their marks.

I'm looking at Rocky's video but I'm not sure I'm seeing all of it, just the introduction.  So I'm sure I'm missing something.  Con Artist sounds at the moment to be an umbrella term for any number of characters.  Here we're often concerned about our favorite con artist. 

I think we may be discussing "narcissist masks".  The body language guy likes to find them and point them out.  There may be similarity there.

[chockfull]

On 2/17/2022 at 11:27 PM, Rocky said:

We have, over the two decades of GSC's online life, quibbled about when he started (from the start, or later perhaps), but my recollection is that it is generally accepted that he was indeed a CON ARTIST.

The question then becomes, what goes on inside the mind of a con artist?

Curiosity Stream (dot com) is an online provider of MANY research/documentary videos. A subscription for a year can be had for $20 or less. I logged on this evening and found a new series, Inside the Mind of a Con Artist.

Some of you might be interested in checking it out.

Took a look around it looks interesting.  The intro clip lists greed, lack of empathy, and loose morals as common motivators for con artists.  I may get a subscription to look into it further, as I see similarities between con artists that span the medium they use - real estate scams or selling cult indoctrination with a lifetime of income potential.

[chockfull]

On 2/18/2022 at 10:52 AM, Bolshevik said:

I'm looking at Rocky's video but I'm not sure I'm seeing all of it, just the introduction.  So I'm sure I'm missing something.  Con Artist sounds at the moment to be an umbrella term for any number of characters.  Here we're often concerned about our favorite con artist. 

I think we may be discussing "narcissist masks".  The body language guy likes to find them and point them out.  There may be similarity there.

Nice I like the body language guy.  Very good on lie detection.  There is a series called Lie To Me I think still on Netflix that digs into micro expressions like this guy.  It is a real science.  You can't hide your face from expressing it is built in lol.

[Twinky]

7 hours ago, chockfull said:

Nice I like the body language guy.  Very good on lie detection

He's interesting, but remember it's not necessarily right.  I've seen some things he's done and he appears to have it completely wrong, when further facts become known.

[Bolshevik]

13 minutes ago, Twinky said:

He's interesting, but remember it's not necessarily right.  I've seen some things he's done and he appears to have it completely wrong, when further facts become known.

The video I posted was of Megan Markle.  Others besides The Body Language guy I believe label her a narcissist and I think would agree she is a con artist. She has subdued a prince.  She's been shown to dress like the late Princess Diana to get Harry's attention and cater to his mommy issues.

She wears masks, an act.  Waysider pointed out there's different types of acting.  

I think VPW was a malignant narcissist.  That puts him under the con artist umbrella.  Narcissists wear masks, they act, because they lack a stable sense of self, and have to obtain narcissistic supply like a medication to soothe that eternal internal conflict.

[Twinky]

That Markle woman is a conwoman through and through.  Apart from any natural ability, she's had years of learning to pretend to be someone else.  And despite not being a very good actress, she's well and truly conned her prince, her main audience.  I don't believe most of what she says: some things might have a fragment of truth, but she has embellished it so much that any original cause for concern is obliterated.  She has no dignity or gravitas, and is an embarrassment all round.  Focus is absolutely all on her, her and her, with glimpses of other people but only so as to reflect everything back at her.  I doubt this marriage will have the longevity of other royal marriages.

Is she a malignant narcissist?  Certainly she has her own cult following.  And I believe she will cause damage to them.

I could mention another malignant narcissist with his own cult following but I won 't because that would get my post banned from here.

 

VPW's delusions of grandeur were just that.  Delusions.  Quite a small-time conman, really, but he did a lot of damage.  I'm glad I never met the man in person.

[Rocky]

6 hours ago, Twinky said:

That Markle woman is a conwoman through and through.  Apart from any natural ability, she's had years of learning to pretend to be someone else.  And despite not being a very good actress, she's well and truly conned her prince, her main audience.

Yikes! I never paid close enough attention to her to develop an impression for myself. After studying Thomas Paine, I just never had much interest in any royalty by heredity.

And you didn't miss anything of value by never having met Victor Wierwille.

[WordWolf]

On 2/18/2022 at 2:30 PM, waysider said:

This is spot on.

 

He was not what is known as a method actor. In method acting, the actor, relaxes and becomes a kind of blank slate that can experience the emotions of the character they are playing. It's a process, for sure. Wierwille, on the other hand, was more of what would be known as an action based actor. In action based acting, if you want to appear happy, you smile. If you want to appear sad, you frown, and so on. You don't need to actually experience the emotions you are projecting. Wierwille was very good at this and fully aware of what he was doing, without actually experiencing the emotions he was portraying. That's what con artists do. They can't afford the luxury of experiencing the emotions of their marks.

I've heard of those referred to as "internal method" (what you described as method actor)  and "external method" (what you described as action-based actor.

There's a story, sadly fictional, about the preparations Dustin Hoffman and Laurence Olivier used preparing for their difficult (torture) scene in The Marathon Man. Supposedly, they used both methods.

Dustin Hoffman used the "internal method." To feel what would be similar to torture, he didn't shave that weekend, stayed up, and gave himself a hard time in general. Laurence Olivier used the "external method." To feel what the torturer would feel, he stood and moved as the torturer would, and used that to inform himself how to feel in the role.  When Dustin Hoffman arrived on set, Olivier took one look at him and asked what happened.  When Hoffman explained, Olivier replied "Next time, try acting- it's much easier."      Sadly, this story was fictional, and Hoffman repeatedly tried to set the record straight.   What IS true is that Dustin Hoffman WAS a method actor through and through (using the "internal method.")   In the same movie, Hoffman's character suffered an attempted drowning.  Trying to make the scene more realistic, he eventually had to be given oxygen.  However, I'm sure he felt what it was like to be drowned while filming it! 

 

So, in "method acting", one learns what the character would feel by analogous experience.  In action-based acting, one learns what the character would feel by moving as the character would, and listening to one's own body.  

I disagree that vpw was either.  vpw never actually FELT what he was simulating- it was all an act.  When he wanted to look sad and wretched, he didn't simulate any feeling, he simulated the outward appearance and didn't feel even a fake analogue.  If he had to cry fake tears, they were on command and not the result of faking sorrow to himself. When he wanted to show joy, he copied the expressions and tone of people who spoke while experiencing joy.   With an actor, there's some feeling of the emotion one is demonstrating.   As a true narcissist and sociopath, vpw felt NOTHING.  He learned which demonstrations were effective at what times, and demonstrated them for best effect.   When he studied preachers, he didn't simply study how they prepared their sermons, or even simply how they taught.  He studied the vocal and facial expressions and when to make them.  If he found a successful sermon, he reproduced the content- and he reproduced the DELIVERY.

vpw was convinced that "sincerity" was something that was in APPEARANCE but not in REALITY.  He even taught it that way.  He said that the salesman who sells a brush with only one bristle on it would have to be VERY sincere.   That is completely wrong.  The salesman who knows he's selling a toothbrush with only one bristle on it- who knew that's what he was selling- would be unable to be sincere that it was a good brush, good for brushing.  If he persisted in selling it, he would have to deceive and pretend it was good, all while knowing it was useless.  He would be the OPPOSITE of sincere.    But vpw taught it like that in public, many times.  That says a lot about his world-view, all by itself.    When vpw was what he thought of as "sincere", he was faking it the entire time, ready to sell a worthless product.  He even said that it was no guarantee for truth.    (We thought he meant that someone who really believed something was not guaranteed to believe something true, but he didn't mean that at all since he used the word "sincere" to mean something false, he used the word "sincere" insincerely.  :)  

[WordWolf]

Hey- I just figured something out.

When vpw supposedly learned to speak in tongues from JE Stiles (when he learned to fake the whole thing), it took him HOURS. Stiles was baffled as to why it was taking so long when he normally got quick results.  Looking back, it's obvious why it took hours.  

vpw's life was full of PERFORMANCE.  When he learned to do something of God, he learned to FAKE something of God. He learned to preach by learning to imitate legitimate preachers.  He learned to plagiarize the work of others with a preacher's delivery (which he faked) so it looked legit- legit material with the FACADE, the APPEARANCE, of legitimate preaching.  

When Stiles tried to work with vpw, vpw was studying how to FAKE everything- gestures, what the syllables sounded like, the intonations, and so on.  It took Stiles hours because it took that long for vpw to figure out how to ape him and imitate him in detail.   We all know he always recited the same handful of syllables when he supposedly demonstrated SIT-  "Lo SHON ta ma la ka SI to la SHON ta."  That seems to have been his entire SIT vocabulary.

[Rocky]

5 minutes ago, WordWolf said:

Hey- I just figured something out.

When vpw supposedly learned to speak in tongues from JE Stiles (when he learned to fake the whole thing

IOW, Victor Wierwille was a con artist through and through from the beginning?

[Twinky]

4 hours ago, Rocky said:

I never paid close enough attention to her to develop an impression for myself.

Oh, don't waste your time by taking an interest now.  This actress doesn't have a long career as a star.  Just as a needle.

[Bolshevik]

1 hour ago, Rocky said:

IOW, Victor Wierwille was a con artist through and through from the beginning?

There are threads about his child hood.

Narcississm (PD) is thought to be caused by severe neglect by the mother in infancy.  VPW was acting to get through every day of his life.  It was a miserable existence.

[Bolshevik]

There's a video somewhere on this thing called the internet.  Jim Carrey is having a round table discussion with several other well known actors.  They were discussing their careers, the profession and themselves.

Mr. Carrey honestly described himself as a broken person.  He said he is just a bunch of pieces inside.   I find that is a description of the self a borderline, an internal self that never congeals, but I have no idea if that is the case with Mr. Carrey.   He said acting is a way to play with all those pieces and put them together in various and new ways.

[Bolshevik]

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/crime-she-writes/201909/the-art-the-con-and-why-people-fall-it

 

Quote

Another thing most chiselers have in common are their egos. These extortion sales people boost the psyche of the perpetrators and make them feel even more confident, thus the description of the con has been termed as a confidence game.

 

This is interesting to me . . . it brings to mind The Law of Believing.   Much of the point of The Law of Believing is Ego Inflation.  When you practice The Law of Believing . . . you are making yourself more susceptible to The Confidence Game  . . . part of a tactic of a Con Artist. 

 

Edited February 21, 2022 by Bolshevik
Overconfident Post

[engine]

I don't think that he was smart enough to be a con man. I think he fell into taping piffle (Dave Anderson), young ones came in (us), money came in, and they expanded. I find no brains there at all with him. He had the farm as a starting point and had family to help out.

He was a flawed man, and those flaws permeated and influenced everything and everyone around him. His drinking was apparent during teachings as he slurred his speech, his anger was unmatched as he could melt a face, his lusts were not controlled by him, and his Germanic background lended itself to authoritarianism. Lots of fear used as motivation....there's that nasty Sand again.

I don't believe there was anything like a long-term business plan. Why? Because I don't think he nor howard or ermal or harry  knew how to do long term planning. Preparing  for the influx of people and the astounding growth would have been a touch hard to see, yes? They were flying by the seat of their pants for sure. Very few top leaders had any true leadership ability. Why were they in senior positions then? Those like the moynihans, reahards, andersons, the allens, finnegan, and on and on. They were in those positions because they were there first and not because of skill necessarily. Yes, we were led by folks who themselves needed to be led.  And vp had them under his thumb and indoctrinated with piffle.

And they kept flying by the seat of their pants as we got onboard.

Edited February 24, 2022 by engine
clarifications

[waysider]

Maybe it was a combination of both... a man with the ability to swindle, stumbling into unforeseen opportunity.

[chockfull]

Engine interesting perspective cool thx for sharing.  The permeating flaws makes sense.

I don’t buy that he “fell” into taping piffle.  He spent a fair amount of time and one trip getting a remote doctorate degree that specialized in homiletics and the art of influencing people through speech.

Then he refined that in a rebel theologian image to appeal to hippies because the Ohio farmers were semi interested in his stolen classes but returned to their churches.

Then he made a power play on both coasts to usurp local ministers and their followings.

It was a planned initiative.  WOW right?

Edited February 24, 2022 by chockfull

[T-Bone]

4 hours ago, engine said:

don't think that he was smart enough to be a con man.

Maybe that’s the “genius” of being self-deluded…great intelligence and altruism are not required…

The definitions of con artist and cheat that Bolshevik mentioned earlier don’t require great intelligence…just great skill – the ability to do something well…wierwille was very charismatic – an entertaining and inspiring speaker.

After I left TWI, in trying to make sense of my cult experience and trying to demystify a harmful and controlling cult-leader - what stymied me for a long time, was trying to imagine how I could pull off something like that…

…I’ve had a long career in security systems and access control – and believed a prerequisite to designing a good system was learning to think like the bad guys…what would they do to break in and steal someone’s stuff?

But one thing that even the best security systems cannot defend against is social engineering - the use of deception to manipulate individuals into divulging confidential or personal information that may be used for fraudulent purposes... How did wierwille captivate my soul? It was an inside job – and I let him in!

So, in the early days after my TWI exit – in trying to think like a harmful and controlling cult-leader – I probably had some caricature of a willful evil genius bent on world domination…but “willful evil” gets into trying to prove intent…

…and “genius” usually means exceptional intellectual or creative power or other natural ability…but when I started to think of other “formulas” for becoming a harmful and controlling cult-leader, I came back to the idea that IF wierwille was self-deluded   (deluded by oneself or having deluded beliefs concerning oneself)   then it’s possible he could have had the best of intentions and felt justified – for whatever reasons - in anything he attempted to do……and perhaps the “genius” he had was not exceptional intellectual or creative power but in his aptitude for deception. In my opinion he was a great actor…The only time he flubbed his lines is when he went off-script - especially in live teachings or speaking extemporaneously...see visual aid below in the DVD bonus feature section - this actor couldn't even handle a simple script.

I’ve always loved sci-fi movies and I believe one of the key factors of enjoyment is the suspension of disbelief. “Suspension of disbelief, sometimes called willing suspension of disbelief, is the intentional avoidance of critical thinking or logic in examining something unreal or impossible in reality, such as a work of speculative fiction, in order to believe it for the sake of enjoyment. Aristotle first explored the idea of the concept in its relation to the principles of theater; the audience ignores the unreality of fiction in order to experience catharsis.”
From: Wikipedia – suspension of disbelief

 

 

DVD bonus feature: Liberty Mutual Insurance with struggling actor commercial ( this is one of my all-time favorite commercials – and it drives Tonto nuts if she’s fast-forwarding commercials on something recorded on the DVR and I see this one go by – I have to watch it. No actually – she knows I love it too and will even let me know if it’s on and I’m in another room – she’ll say “hey, your guy is on”)

 

 

Edited February 24, 2022 by T-Bone
the genius of being my own editor - I think I'm the best editor

[Bolshevik]

 

[Bolshevik]

16 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

. . . 
But one thing that even the best security systems cannot defend against is social engineering - the use of deception to manipulate individuals into divulging confidential or personal information that may be used for fraudulent purposes... How did wierwille captivate my soul? It was an inside job – and I let him in!

 

 

Yes, they get you to fall in love with the projection of yourself onto them.  

a Male narcissist, for example, will act childish (out of habit, not cognitively), playing to the natural motherly instincts of his partner.  She wanted to be a mommy . . . and now she is . . but not in the way she thought she would be.