Were neither Doop nor Heefner very well educated in the scriptures, then? I thought they were supposed to have their own powerful Christian ministries that VPW somehow hijacked? Were Doop and Heefner simple, untrained, but passionate believers, swayed by this ordained minister who showed interest in them?
This question would be better answered by those who were there. What I know is that they were with the House of Acts. That was a hippie movement of "Jesus freak" Christians. I'm under the impression that those were humble Christians of faith who were causing a stir in Haight Ashbury by being themselves. https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/23755-the-jesus-hippie-movement/
I see, looking back in hindsight, where VP, in order to be successful, hijacked two ministries. The first, was B.G. Leonard's - he stole his class, almost word for word, charts, etc. This class gave him a product to sell.
The second, was his going to CA, and finding men who would win the youth for him. He knew he never could. VP could be very loving and charismatic and kind to people when he wanted something or their allegiance. I do not fault Doop or Heefner at all. They heard the Word in PFAL, which was Leonard's teaching and realized this was a great way to get the message out. It was a tool for them to spread the Word.
All of the members in TWI were a direct result of Doop and Heefner. As we kids moved, we told others. The hippie kids got in TWI because of these two in CA and NY, some travelled to Kansas and other states - over a couple of years it moved out all over the country. Remember, the sixties and early '70s was a time of wandering, hitchhiking youth all over the place, a nomadic generation.
Once Doop and Heefner were gone, you never had quite the explosion of the early years. Yes, people were won for a while after, mostly by men who had been with Doop and Heefner, but that leveled off, the explosiveness was lost. Once VP took the reigns it became rule oriented. I remember I was sorely disappointed in '71 when I was told I couldn't fellowship in Rye anymore, I now had to go to Larchmont fellowships. All of a sudden, the go where you want, fellowship with whoever, was being taken away. The rules started coming down, many of us started drifting away. It started becoming corporate under VPs rule - and I believe he knew exactly what he was doing, since, with the expulsion of Doop and Heefner, it was now "his" ministry.
Yes, I have wondered what would have happened if VP hadn't stuck his finger in the pie and siphoned off, maybe one-third of the movement to himself.
For more back ground to Twinky's question......here's another interesting post from the Jim Doop thread:
Posted by Tom:
I thought there was still a Way East and a Way West at the time of the separation between Doop & Heefner, and The Way, but maybe VP incorporated The Way 1st & then kicked them out. I didn't think so. I wondered why Steve and Jim didn't just tell VP to kiss off at the time. There was no twi, no authoritarian hierarchical power structure, no Way Tree (VP had gotten the "revelation" as he called it, he had taught it, but it wasn't in place in NY or CA at the time), no centralized abundant sharing. Even if VP had done something legal turning the Way into a corporation (as I said, I think that came later - very soon later), it wouldn't have mattered. There was no question in anyone's mind about loyalty to VP, the man of God - in the WC, no doubt, but not on the field. Had Steve and Jim just kept up what they were doing, everyone would have just kept up what they were doing right along with them. I just don't get it.
I know one of the things VP was complaining about was that he had no way of keeping track of the money. That was his stated point of contention with Heefner; VP said Steve was doing yada, yada, yada with the money. That summer (what we were told was that Steve was taking a sabbatical), Steve Perez (who God told to move to NY & told him the Word would move if he did - who started the ministry in LI) and Ed Goebel, his assistant, a couple of sharp fellows, put together a system whereby VP could track the ABS (the truly self-financing way we were doing it in NY at the time). They presented it to VP at summer school. I met them after they returned from meeting with VP. His response was that he was going to centralize the ABS.
He said that it was only a temporary measure. He said that he knew the way that we were doing it was the right way to do it, but that the believers were too immature to handle the money properly. He said that, after the believers matured, we would return to the grassroots way of handling ABS - the Word's way.
Wait a minute! Doesn't the Word say that if a man can't handle the mammon, that God is not going to entrust that man with the true spiritual riches? How then were all these signs, miracles, and wonders happening? How then did God entrust the believers with the hearts of so many that were turning on to the Word? Are they not the true spiritual riches that the same God said he would not entrust to people who could not handle the mammon? Pretty soon, the way we had been doing the ABS was no longer the RIGHT way; it was WRONG and DEVILISH, and you'd better not bring it up in a positive light, or YOU were spiritually compromised. BS.
I wonder if the leaders weren't too impressed with the value of PFAL as a tool to move the Word. We were in the midst of over a year of running back to back film classes in LI. We were so young; I think the leadership wondered what to do with people once you witnessed to them without the class & materials.
Those big herd-fests from the mid-70s to early-80s never ceased......once twi had its power consolidated and its centralized-bureaucracy in place. No more itineraries for the traveling-mog. The Pompous...er, Prevailing Auditorium was the new, shiny object to behold.
When things nose-dived after geer's poisoned, preposterous, pretentious proclamations......the centralized-focus from headquarters had to regroup (1986-1990). So, what happened? Baby steps. Small and friendly rock of ages.... Craig, Don and Howard were actually down-on-the-ground greeting and shaking hands with the corps and faithful followers. Emphasis on love and unity....building back what had been lost/stolen.
Then, with each year......bigger meetings. Martindale was going to teach a LIVE advanced class at the Indiana Campus. All faithful corps and advanced class grads should (NEED) to attend. With nearly 80% of corps gone.....all eyes were on *Advanced Class Grads* to rise up and serve. Therefore, twi set in motion Advanced Class Specials (more herd-fests) to coerce.....er, strengthen efforts to move forward. It's the mass formation way to encourage, manipulate and coerce the herd to move into the corral to brand them.
Even worse.....twi started doing Annual Advanced Class Specials in Dallas over Thanksgiving Weekend.
Field corps labor was used to minimize operation expenses
Twi utilized the long Thanksgiving weekend when many used "vacation time"
Cult tactics.....to squeeze in there and keep "earthly families" apart
Hotel cut rates.....because MOST people are WITH their OWN families during Thanksgiving
As a corps grad in Oklahoma City, my wife and I were "invited" (assigned to work) to attend these Advanced Class Specials in 1995, 1996 and 1997. My responsibility was to be Mrs. Wierwille's escort. When we left twi in August 1998.....I even received another "invite letter" around October 1. LOL
One of my comments that I posted years ago:
Dallas, Again: When this letter arrived in the mail, I knew what it said....even before opening it. Once again, I was "invited" to attend the Advanced Class Special in Dallas, November 1996. And, again......be Mrs. Wierwille's escort. Well, I guess that I must have done a fair job, because no one else was assigned to it. That spoke volumes. My wife would, once again, be working in the green room.
Another Thanksgiving weekend with the "cult family." It had been 20 years since I'd been home for Thanksgiving.....around my parents' table, eating a good home-cooked meal. Growing up in a hunting family......one year at Thanksgiving with aunts and uncles, we had turkey, duck, pheasant, goose and quail. Now, THAT was a wild game meal to behold. Most always during our family get-togethers, we'd head out the door around 7am and hunt pheasant for about three hours Thanksgiving morning. Then, we'd field-dress the birds and enjoy the fresh pheasant. Those days were long gone.......now I spent Thanksgiving dressed in a suit and my butt in a chair.
There's a window of twi-history (1969-1972) before wierwille's establishment-men (yes-men) and way pyramid....er, tree were structured to funnel all power and money to headquarters..... that twi doesn't want people to see. WOW. Men like Perez, Heefner, Doop, and others on the frontlines of ministering to others and walking with the power of God. Touchstones to the Jesus Movement. Evolving into another Youth Movement. The Groovy Christians of Rye, New York. Excitement. Deliverance. Healing. The spirit of God opening doors.
Notice: Who did wierwille bring in to run New York after ousting Heefner? Bobby Moneyhands. Yep, nearly 50 years ago..... slick-vic brings in "his guy" to replace all this back-to-back class activity with an establishment-guy. From all that we now know about wierwille....this all makes sense.
Imagine....seeing all this 50 years ago, supporting (covering) wierwille and his sins, top-tier of clergy list, region guy, campus/ corps coordinator for years, etc. .... AND THEN, OUSTED WITH MARK & AVOID LABEL. Any thought about this cover-up, Bob Moneyhands?
It seems to ALWAYS be the corps coordinators and assistants ...... who start up Splinter Cults.
They are the drill sergeants of groupthink indoctrination and are locked into an echo chamber that they seem unable to escape. They persist on leading others in this quixotic journey of rigid conformism. When in truth.....they are the ones who are the beneficiaries of selling soap. They enjoy travel, leisure, flexibility, perks, payment, ease in retirement and adulation. Who could ask for anything more?
...It seems to ALWAYS be the corps coordinators and assistants ...... who start up Splinter Cults.
They are the drill sergeants of groupthink indoctrination and are locked into an echo chamber that they seem unable to escape. They persist on leading others in this quixotic journey of rigid conformism. When in truth.....they are the ones who are the beneficiaries of selling soap. They enjoy travel, leisure, flexibility, perks, payment, ease in retirement and adulation. Who could ask for anything more? This background and more, is why I think...............Splinter Cults are WORSE.
Great correlations, Skyrider and it brings more thoughts to mind – that last paragraph is just scintillating !
The first thing my mind went to is the passage:
“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you cross land and sea to make one convert, and then you turn that person into twice the child of hell you yourselves are!” Matthew 23:15 NLT
The entire chapter 23rd chapter of Matthew is an exposé on religious hypocrites. The label of “drill sergeants of groupthink indoctrination” makes me think of my ways corps training. And this is a real weird and out of focus concept I’m still trying to articulate. Way corps program created by the premier hypocrite – wierwille. His first attempt zeros out - which makes me think of an old proverb “Those who can, do; those who can't, teach” which means those who are especially skilled in a certain field will be able to pursue a successful career, while those who are less skilled will end up teaching about it instead. What that may indicate is that the work done in that field is too challenging, or simply the lack of capacity on their part....so wierwille even failed at being a teacher...or did he?
Now here’s a quirky concept: what if the way corps training was really a clone factory – with a curriculum designed to turn out the ideal hypocrite – little wierwilles. Not everyone is going to excel at hypocrisy but those who do may aspire to be the corps coordinators and assistants.
(Thought of the day to go along with Matthew 23:15 “each one hypocrifry one” – not sure if “hypocrifry” is a real word – but it could be – “I wish you could see it in the original – it’s just oh no…”
Hypocrisy – noun - the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; pretense.
Hypocrifry – verb - to cook someone’s conscience in a pan, griddle or way corps campus over the blistering heat of constant beratement especially with the use of fat (the natural sleazy, greasy, creepy substance occurring in the body of wierwille’s “doctrine”).
* * * * and now a brief intermission * * *
Talk amongst yourselves
Do the 4-15s
note to self: find out how vampires take a self-assessment if they don’t see their own reflection in a mirror
Now back to our show…
“It seems to ALWAYS be the corps coordinators and assistants ...... who start up Splinter Cults” and the beat goes on – meaning the virus of wierwille’s-hypocrisy-rich-doctrine moves on regardless of whether or not other suckers fall for it.
Virus just might be an apt description of wierwille’s-hypocrisy-rich-doctrine. I’m trying to remember wierwille’s advanced class teaching regarding detecting devil spirits – something like “whenever something has life in itself it’s spirit” – or some bull$hit like that…what does it matter…it’s just more bull$hit from the spiritualism-musings-of-an-ancient-hypocrite…anyway, that got me thinking about how viruses replicate – something I remember from reading The Hot Zone: The Terrifying True Story of the Origins of the Ebola Virus by Richard Preston explaining how viruses work – they can’t reproduce – so they sneak into other cells and tell them “make more of me”. Sounds like wierwille talking doesn’t it.
Did a quick search of how viruses replicate and found this:
“Viruses cannot replicate on their own, but rather depend on their host cell’s protein synthesis pathways to reproduce. This typically occurs by the virus inserting its genetic material in host cells, co-opting the proteins to create viral replicates, until the cell bursts from the high volume of new viral particles.” from News-Medical Net Health: viral replication almost sounds like the strategy of a parasite.
wierwille was a parasite in every way - not just in plagiarism. Is narcissism parasitic? Looked up the definition of Malignant narcissism – it’s a psychological syndrome comprising an extreme mix of narcissism, antisocial behavior, aggression, and sadism. Grandiose, and always ready to raise hostility levels, the malignant narcissist undermines families and organizations in which they are involved and dehumanizes the people with whom they associate. That def is from Wikipedia – and it had a picture of wierwille next to it – no no – just kidding – but I wish you could see it in the original…ok no more PFAL-flashbacks…but I do think there’s a PTSD for some grads – “it’s like I’m still in the class, man.” Forrest Gump should tell them about Grease Spot Café…
Edited by T-Bone edited within The Hot Zone - Grease Spot anti-viral zone actually
note to self: find out how vampires take a self-assessment if they don’t see their own reflection in a mirror
Hmm. Narcissistic Personality Disorders fall in love with their own Image, not themselves, but their image. The sucky situation of being unable to see this image must drive the vampire batty, which also kinda look like little flying monkeys.
Hmm. Narcissistic Personality Disorders fall in love with their own Image, not themselves, but their image. The sucky situation of being unable to see this image must drive the vampire batty, which also kinda look like little flying monkeys.
"I wish I were the man I know to be." victor paul wierwille
I wish.........
I were........
I know.......
Translation: I see myself (a projected image) on a glorious stage as a world-renowned leader knowing there are millions upon millions who crave to hear me teach. When I speak, the throngs of crowds before me listen with reverence silence.........to hear words of majestic importance for their lives. From their subservient demeanor, I am assured that the Lord has called me to this great endeavor, place and time.
Wow great thread sky and all. Threads like these tie together the history that the Way desperately wants to hide from its followers. A detailed analysis of the people and components involved from mature minds that are no longer 20 - 25 year’s old.
The small bit I have to contribute is from the one time I traveled to the Haight-Ashbury district of San Francisco and had a look around at all the 1960s hippie counter culture history. There were many attractions during this time period including the Grateful Dead house at 710 Ashbury Jerry Garcia’s house. Free love, psychedelics, the Bible were all a major part of the hippie Jesus counterculture movement of the 60s. I believe Doop hung out at a storefront there called The Living Room, which was a lounge area for kids to get together and talk about God and the Bible. Wierwille being slightly older at that time probably developed his leisure suit Larry look during that time trying to fit in as “The Doctor”.
Getting these hippies out to the farm, drying them out, teaching them some etiquette (Dorothy Owens) and propping them up as new respectable ordained ministers was Vics methodology. Then shuffle them around enough they don’t have time to form their own Living Room type influence locally, and come up with a lame excuse to collect all the money centrally.
But they were too lazy to be able to do that outside the USA. So international Way is 3x the cluster f. In Africa the Way is 100% cultural appropriation Christianity exactly like the paper Vic wrote criticizing foreign missions in his old denomination. No he didn’t do it better when he was in charge. Other areas were strong personalities and did whatever they wanted and kept the money internationally. The money is why international followers splintered off ahead of the USA body of lemmings.
USA has just been under the 2 current VP d bags doing RFRs bidding for a couple decades, growing smaller and more disconnected from the world. Now they are free to do whatever they want with the 10 followers left. Their current campaign of returning to the good old days and inviting the youth to a music festival is about as lame as a retirement community leisure suit, which is what they will be wearing there.
Their current campaign of returning to the good old days and inviting the youth to a music festival is about as lame as a retirement community leisure suit, which is what they will be wearing there.
Instead of a bong, they'll be passing around a bottle of Prevagen.
Wow great thread sky and all. Threads like these tie together the history that the Way desperately wants to hide from its followers. A detailed analysis of the people and components involved from mature minds that are no longer 20 - 25 year’s old.
.......
Thanks chockfull......yes, it is enlightening to tie historical accounts of twi from a field perspective for others to see. Today's chumps who sit in twi's "directors" chairs are little more than glassy-eyed loyalists to the groupthink message of "...praise be to wierwille."
Your post reminded me of why in the hell I decided to go into the way corpse in the first place. It was right after the 2nd and 3rd corpses came into NY, on the first of what were to become known as “Lightbearers”......the in-Rez corpse “practical challenge” to prove the efficacy and reality of the corpse training in the the lives of “god’s most committed” followers of the way. That was in the late spring and early summer of 1973. It was the 2nd corpse (graduating that August) and the 3rd corpse (finishing up their first year in-Rez).
Unlike the subsequent “practical challenges” of “Lightbearers” groups, which were primarily made up of getting a piffle class together within a two week visit to an area of “concern, interest, and need”, this group was sent out on the mission to kick foot, take names, and “straighten things out” in the limb of NY, which had been hit very hard by the putsch-like firing of Steve and Sandi Heefener in March of 1972, and the resistance to Boob and Doody Moneyhands having been brought in as the new limb bosses.
I had been a “full-time ministry employee” at the way of Long Island from September 1971 through May, 1972. Steve and Laurie Perez were the full-time area leaders for the way of Long Island, which they started from scratch in the fall of 1970. There was an authentic Christian “revival” in lower NY among the young people and hippies of the time. Steve and Laurie sparked a non-stop slew of piffle film classes at a clip of 4 or 5 a month from Suffolk, Nassau & Queens, for 12 months in a row, leading up to the AC in Rye, NY in March, 1972, during which the Heefners were publically slandered and spitefully fired.
When the Heefners got fired, the Perezs quit. That left Ed Goebel, John Petty, and me as the remaining full-timers down in lower NY from the 5 boroughs of the City to Nassau and Suffolk Counties. We all decided to quit full-time employment with the way of NY, but, except for Ed, we retained our oversized branches to keep running classes. At that time, the whole “blue form” send all the $$ to HQ thing began too! So, it had been quite a year of fighting and resisting for the lower NY areas by the time the 2nd and 3rd showed up in June of 1973.
I was busy getting ready for the ROA ‘73 and finalizing my decision on whether or not to go into the corpse that fall. I got married in July of that year and 2 weeks later was at HQ for summer school and in-Rez. I was playing back- up guitar for Cliff, and lead guitar for Sweet Fellowship (most of whom were going into the 4th corpse) and we backed-up a whole bunch of other groups from the Northeast. Doug MacMullan was 3rd Corpse and he was specifically assigned to work with all us “way productions” people to get us ready for the ROA that year. It was total HELL! LOL! Rehearsals were these 14 hour marathons at Ray Bertine’s parents’ farm in upstate NY, with Mac Mullan telling us to smile, and move, and look at the audience, and, and, and, and.........,
It was during that week of rehearsals at the farm, that I made the decision to go into the corpse. My thoughts were these:
I could see the handwriting on the subway walks pretty damn clearly! If anyone wanted to have any leadership position in the way it would eventually require doing time in da corpse! THAT was made quite obvious to us by vp himself during that month-long Advanced Class in Rye, and by Boob and Doody with their smarmy obsequious worship of all things dictor paul, and by the book bondage”leadership” style.
I just wanted to get married, run the Queens/Brooklyn Area Of NY for the way, and make my living playing music. I did NOT want to go be a limp leader or staff person somewhere. I wanted to stay in NY, get married, play music, and “move da word”!! LOL! There’s the language manipulation again!!
Well, once we were in the way corpse gulag at HQ, EVERYTHING CHANGED! VP had big plans for us Way Productions keedz that we had no idea about! Then, suddenly, there was an Interim year added!!! WTF?? And then......JCING came out.....and then PFAL ‘77.....and then AC ‘79......and then The 40th Anniversary Year weekends, Living Victoriously, The Installation of Da forehead on the 40th Anniversary, Sound Out ‘84.....WIBAP.......one mega event after another and no time to think about what the hell we were doing other than we were “just moving the word”!! Well that wound up a big bust! LOL!
Point of it all being, I never went into the way corpse to be a lifelong ful-time “Minister”! I just wanted to get married, run a branch or two for the way of NY in the City, and play music. I only wanted the corpse so HQ would leave us alone in NY! Leave us alone to run classes, glorify Jesus, play music, have fun, and live life! But, dictor Paul had other ideas. He manipulated the meaning of “a lifetime of Christian service” into a lifetime of indentured servitude to his personal perverted peccadilloes and pathological illnesses. I pity the fool.
For years, I'd wondered why twi-history seemed to have this BLACKOUT of those 1970-1973 years
Seemed like all the messaging was the corps training of those early corps. Very little was highlighted about what was happening on the field. What happened to all those early leaders? Why were SO MANY GOOD LEADERS LEAVING? Sure, I'd heard bits and pieces..... like Donnie Fugit in Kansas and the Way Home in North Carolina.....but NOT THIS.
Now I see........there were rifts and infighting until wierwille sent the 2nd and 3rd corps into New York in 1973.
For years, I'd wondered why twi-history seemed to have this BLACKOUT of those 1970-1973 years
Seemed like all the messaging was the corps training of those early corps. Very little was highlighted about what was happening on the field. What happened to all those early leaders? Why were SO MANY GOOD LEADERS LEAVING? Sure, I'd heard bits and pieces..... like Donnie Fugit in Kansas and the Way Home in North Carolina.....but NOT THIS.
Now I see........there were rifts and infighting until wierwille sent the 2nd and 3rd corps into New York in 1973.
And, the cover-up.....that followed.
. . . you're pointing out a pattern of exodus events spanning VPW's entire existence . . . and TWI's.
Likely part of a cycle . . . perhaps the discard portion?
“Likely part of a cycle . . . perhaps the discard portion?”
Rather than focusing on the narcissist again ……or the narcissistic cycle, I see a pattern that continues to emerge over and over again. GOOD PEOPLE, GOOD LEADERS WALK AWAY.
…or the narcissistic cycle, I see a pattern that continues to emerge over and over again. GOOD PEOPLE, GOOD LEADERS WALK AWAY.
More later……….
Yes !
With all the revealing history on this thread and links I’m hoping a lot of TWI folks (both “old timers” as well as new recruits) give that statement and this history lesson some serious thought - - and maybe some self-examination if applicable.
I had this crazy idea as a wannabe cult-comedy writer of a scene late one night - all the board of directors happen to be gathered around the fountain where wierwille is buried - discussing the dwindling number of followers - and even more importantly, less money coming in.
Then one of them says - “hey, remember in the Advanced Class, Doctor Wierwille’s teaching about the witch of Endor, where Saul asked the witch to summon the spirit of the prophet Samuel and ask for advice against the Philistines in battle…well…I’ve been thinking…how about we get Rosalie to summon the spirit of Doctor Wierwille and ask him what to do….desperate times call for desperate measures.”
Some burst into nervous laughter…some dropped their coffee mugs, hot chocolate or Drambuie…one of them broke into an ecstatic language with a little Latin twist at the end, “Lo Shonta Mecca Lekka High etcetera etcetera etcetera “ one person flicked their cigarette at the speaker, and one person farted, waved their hand dismissively said “phfffft - I’m outta here” and stormed off - and it was night (oh yeah, I mentioned that already…change that to stormed off into deeper oblivion).
Another bored director says “hey wait a minute…that’s not a bad idea. What do we have to lose? There’s a fifty fifty chance Doctor Wierwille was wrong about the dead not being alive and Rosalie actually does summon the spirit of Doctor Wierwille…uhm…remember not to stare at his glass eye…now…on the other hand if it’s a devil spirit impersonating Doctor Wierwille then - “ he’s interrupted mid sentence by another leader, uncontrollably shaking while smoking four cigarettes simultaneously “h-h-how will we kn-kn-know if it’s really Doctor Wierwille or a devil spirit?!?!”
One executive who was always the most shy and withdrawn blurts out “what’s the matter, Dumba$$ you forgot how to operate discerning of spirits?”
Another more prudent executive (who used to be over the risk assessment department at a local wastewater treatment plant - for those times when there was an excessive flow of $hit) says “ an impersonator is gonna slip up somewhere - the spirit will have two good eyes…or maybe the ectoplasm facsimile of a glass eye is on the wrong side…or the lying spirit says ‘that’s right’ instead of ‘dats riiiiiight’. “
The chief financial officer loudly clapped his hands together and says, “Let’s do it !!!! Fifty fifty odds ain’t bad at all. That’s a helluva lot better than what we get at Vegas or the stock market- which by the way , has sucked for us since the pandemic…either way we got nothing to lose. If it’s the real make believe man of god he’ll know what to do…and if it’s a devil spirit impersonating the real make believe man of god - he’ll know what to do…six of one half a dozen of the other…it’s like a lot of things, kids. “
Edited by T-Bone Is it live or is it Memorex impersonating live music? Operate the discerning of decibel spirits
and several more. Key is that EVERY SINGLE HUMAN is subject to being conned.
What constitutes and how to develop and foster critical thinking skill can be (and sometimes IS) taught in k-12 schools AND by/in families.
Historical and cultural literacy is crucial background knowledge/understanding that can help immunize people young and old against (religious and political) cults.
Historical and cultural literacy is crucial background knowledge/understanding that can help immunize people young and old against (religious and political) cults.
At age 19, when I first was introduced to TWI, VPW, and PFLAP, I can say now with great confidence that I was grossly deficient in emotional and intellectual tools to immunize me from a fundamentalist Christian cult. Besides emotional immaturity and longing for belonging and for a more robust knowledge of spiritual realities, I had been raised in a culture steeped in Christian dogma and symbolism. If not for that cultural background, I could have been vulnerable to a wider range of cults.
Time and again, we hear the GSC-accounts of good leaders walking away from twi. With documented evidence, it certainly raises the issue, "What would have happened in twi and around the country if these good men and women wouldn't have been driven away?"
Another insightful post by DWBH:
john som---ille has a phd in physical education......he has been married to mary wie===lle for over 30 years now.......he is a high ranking officer in the usmc reserves, (if he is not yet retired from the reserves).......he was an assistant to woody hayes at ohio state university when woody was the head football coach there......his brother tim and john started the way's "work" in north carolina at ecu.......john is a viet nam veteran......vic used to tell us that john volunteered for duty in viet nam in order to prove that the revelation and power manifestations are real and work as vic taught them to wayfers in the advanced class.....john is a decorated officer for his outstanding military service in viet nam, as well as numerous other outstanding achievements in the marine corps......he has also worked in an advisory capacity with the idf.....israeli defense forces....in israel.....work for which he was recognized again by the u.s. military, as well as the idf.......i first met john in 1972 when several of us way east branch coordinators were invited to hq by vic after the firing of steve heefner during the ac in rye, ny in april of 72...........to see vic's "heart" and the "heart of the ministry" so's we would stick with twi and not "run off" with heefner and others after the "not so subtle" power play by twi in it's complete takeover of the way east..........at that time, john was in charge of "college outreach" for twi and was the man who designed the physical trainng program that was part of the corps training back then...........he was definitely a "man's man" during the entire time that i knew him back then.......absolutely respected by us corps "kids" and, generally respected throughout the ministry as far as i could tell............he also coordinated twi's original holy land tours.......and led several of them with great success and excitement back in the early 70's.........my personal experiences with john were always positive and i held in him in high regard, as i do to this day....although my last personal contact with him was back in the late 70's......
john was his own man.......during my first year in da corps (the way corps, that is)....we took his class on old testament history.....which was excellent btw......and i began to see the first glimpses of his conflict with vic..........glimpses that became less and less private as that year unfolded..........he had a "knack" for really pizzing vic off with his unflinching honesty and "sarcastic" humor in the face of some really intense "facemeltings" directed at him by vic, both pubicly and privately!!.........vic would criticize john publicly about something he would teach or say during the old t class, and john would throw it right back at vic.......it was great to observe!!!!..........vic often publicly ranted about john's "ego problem" with vic..........and i mean rant!!.....you know, that purple-faced, neck-vein popping kinda rant that only vic could perform!!.........made the dancing prez look like a mickey mouse version of ranting!!..........my take on these rants??.......vic was deeply jealous of john's obvious intelligence and the real achievements of john academically, as a true military "hero", and at his refusal to compromise his own integrity as a "man's man" in the face of the vicious verbal assaults and personal attacks from his father-in-law!!..........he was jealous of john because john was real, not just a pompous phoney like his father-in-law!.....vic feared john, because, in spite of vic's best shots, vic could not break his son-in-law!!...i had several profound, personal conversations with john about my observations of his relationship with vic.......honest, probing and quite revealing conversations for which i am still grateful today to john for engaging in with me.........
in 1974, john left hq and set up the total fitness instiute (tfi) in north fork, ca with the financial assistance of j--n s. l--n and the "blessing" of vic..........tfi was to become the real testing and training ground for the way corps folks.........the experience which would really show vic who his toughest future leaders and workers would be..........it was also open to public sessions which were like twi's version of outward bound, and it rapidly gained a popularity among the corps and non-corps attendees as a real test of a believer's mettle when it came to operating all-9-all-the- time..........it was the precursor to LEAD, which was the vic perverted and controlled version of what john had in mind for tfi!.........it was during the tfi sessions of the spring of 1975 that vic first "ordered" john do the pow camp thingy...... i was on the field in my interim year corps assignment (we were the first corps to have one).......and my lc was one of the attendees at the tfi session where martindale and other "top" corps leaders were given the pow treatment..........they were exposed to the illuminati tapes by myron cohen, and the tapes on music by the marx fella, etc.......they were tied together at points, kept locked up in heavy cardboard boxes which were pounded on from the outside all night, sleep deprived, exposed to heavy-handed interrogation techniques, blaringly loud tapes and music, told that the usa had been invaded and taken over by the russians, and, that they would be broken from standing on the word.........it was a very real experience of what a pow camp might have been like if those circumstances regarding the fall of the usa had been true..........martindale was not the "only survivor" of this pow camp passionplay..........he started an "escape attempt" type of maneuver during which he caused the "deaths" of most of his fellow "prisoners" by his feeble attempt at being the hero/leader........a maneuver for which he was roundly criticized in his final tfi evaluation which was written by john som---ille on each of the participants..........there were several participants who were indeed "broken" during this experiment.......and their "reward" was humiliation in front of the corps and they were never really "trusted" again with choice leadership assignments because of their proven weakness in the face of the enemy!!!...........the participants were sworn to secrecy.....so that the pow experiments could continue unhindered during future tfi sessions..........but, as you can tell from the amount of info i gathered from my lc upon his return, the secret got out fast.........but the pow experiments continued through the tfi session of that spring and summer until october, 1975..........when there were some serious physical and psycho-emotional injuries that occurred during tfi...........all of which, vic blamed on the "total lack of believing" on the part of those "injured"............i did my tfi trip in november, 1975..........and although several of the pow situations were thrown at us.....the pow scenario itself had been watered down so as to avoid any further injuries.........
the tfi experience for the in-rez corps involved the following "rules"..........each tfi group was to hitch-hike to and from north fork in "couples", that is, you chose your travelling partner from among the group........we were encouraged not to choose our spouses, but my spouse was under 20 at the time so i refused to let her go with anyone else..........each person was given a $20 bill so as not to get busted for vagrancy if stopped or questioned by state or local police while hitch-hiking.........it was made plain that if you did not arrive at north fork with the entire $20 you would be immediatley turned back to hitch-hike home.......or, if you made it back without the $20 intact you would receive a failing final evaluation.........you were allotted 72 hours maximum to make the trip each way.......if you took more than 72 hours to get there, you were again immediately turned back to hitch-hike home, refused participation in the tfi program......if you took more than 72 hours to get back home, you again were giving a failing final evaluation.........my wife and i were dropped off at a truck stop near I-75 and it's juncture with I-70 at about 6pm and we then had 72 hours to make our way to north fork, ca........by hook or by crook...........we made it in 70 hours.........no sleep, no stopping, both our $20 bills in pocket!!...........i remember how sad i felt for the unfortunate few who took longer than 72 hours to get there........i literally cried as i watched them turned around after their grueling trip out to ca, no food, no rest.......just a facemelting phone call from vic telling them they flunked and that they better make it home on time or they'd be kicked out of the corps!!..........i watched 6 people have to go through that bs!............
before i left for tfi, i was called to vic's office for a "meetring" with him.........we sat out on the porch by his office, smoking a couple of cigarrettes..........vic asked me to keep our conversation "confidential".........he said that he knew that i had become "close" to john som---ille, during my first year in-rez........he said he knew that i could "talk with john "man-to-man"..........he said that john's "unbridled ego" was going to ruin tfi.........he just was not "seeing" what father wanted vic to do with tfi.......he said john was once again "fighting him" (vic) on the "guidance" god was providing........and he asked me to try to talk with john about his "ego problem" with his father-in-law, hoping that maybe i could "get through to him"..............so, on a cliff overhanging the sierra nevada mountains, having just successfully scaled jackass rock, with only john and jack wilson with me (i had been "banned" from the group assault on jackass rock the day before for taking an "unauthorized picture" of two lindas relieving their bladders behind a log while we were all tied together by a single rope for the day's hike to the foot of jackass rock.........lol!).........while jack was busy preparing for the descent, i had my "man-to-man" talk with john..........one of the greatest conversations i ever had with any wayfer in my life, brutally honest, refreshingly quiet in tone with mutual respect........needless to say,.....i never really "got through" to john about his "ego problem" with his father-in-law!!..........by the end of my first question and his respnse, i saw there was absolutely no need for me to..........there was not a thing wrong with john's ego..........the problems were with the ego of his father-in-law!!!...........
soooo,...........what's my point???...............the entire confrontation session you poor FLO folks had with that guy who probably lived in a van down by the olentangy river was just another perverted distortion of what had been a good idea of john som---ille's that was perverted, twisted, and morphed into another psychosocial torture mechanism designed by vic to break down and control the most willing and faithful followers of his way in ohio..........arranged by a lc who was as afraid of the whole thing as you were, but who was more afraid of what his "father-in-the-word" would do or say if he did'nt carry out his orders!!............i hope your "facilitator" was not bill m--ze.........but it very well could have been..........bill was a terrific dale carnegie isnstructor whom vic "took under his wing" and also eventually destroyed what started out as a unique and valuable service to the corps........bill was tied to vic all the way back to the chimes hour youth caravan daze........he was almost like an "adopted son" of vic's,.......and we all know too well what that can do to a man!............ sorry for the length of this post.......but the memories sometimes come in waves..........................peace.
The scriptures warn us of evil men, seducers, deceivers, taskmasters, etc......those who desire to ensnare us. Whether it be Pharisees or Pharaohs, the truth is plain to see: BEWARE and REBUKE. The first usage of this word "snare" is seen in......Exodus 10:7 And Pharaoh's servants said unto him, How long shall this man be a snare unto us? let the men go, that they may serve the LORD their God.
Recognizing an unholy alliance and/or covenant towards man's authority is the first step towards freedom. Down thru the ages, even to this day.....evil, arrogant aspirations of men and organizations are around every corner to entice and subjugate. Most every organization and/or movement targets the youth. They are the most vulnerable. Young minds are malleable.....and once groomed to discipleship, they provide decades of value (return on investment). Deception is key and thus, there seems to be an intermediary (a groomed peer) placed in a position to "run the ruse." The deceiver is stealthily hidden from view.
More often than not....down thru the years, way corps were the groomed intermediaries sent out to ensnare others into the corps, into subjugation. We were consistently taught (especially behind closed doors in the corps program).......that those who left were "cop outs." I REJECT THAT PREMISE.
What's to say that THOSE who walked away from wierwille's corps-subjugation program were the strong ones, mighty for the Lord, valiant for the TRUTH? Perez, Heefner, Doop, Somerville, etc......these were the ones seeing the power of the Lord in manifestation. On the streets healing drug addicts, turning hearts to the Lord. Signs. Miracles. Wonders. That's what was happening in the early 70s.......TRUE REVIVAL. Yes, they were running back-to-back classes, but I contend that it was merely a small framework of the dynamic outreach!! Walking in His presence. Ever-mindful of His spirit. Full-rejoicing in His glorious power to saints and sinners alike in the most precious name of our lord and savior Jesus Christ.
The true revival was spearheaded by humble men of sinful nature who stood tall in His mercy and grace!!!
Wierwille, time and again......thwarted energized ministries and co-opted individuals for his own selfish purposes. If there was any value to a structured learning environment like the corps program......it could have (should have) been like 3-4 months long, tops! No more. Crap, if you can't teach energized people these truths in 4 months......then, you're a counterfeit. Wierwille was a subjugating counterfeit..... claiming to be some "great one" (read: Acts 8 -- Simon the sorcerer).
All that gobbledygook of twi being "the true household, the true remnant"......is junk bible talk.
Down thru the ages, the true remnant are those who cleave to the truths of John 15:1-8.......I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. (etc.) Good people, good leaders have been walking away from twi since wierwille's days in Van Wert. The church board voted unanimously to have his name stricken from the clergy register......and they were absolutely right in doing so.
"...given the pow treatment..........they were exposed to the illuminati tapes by myron cohen, and the tapes on music by the marx fella, etc.......they were tied together at points, kept locked up in heavy cardboard boxes which were pounded on from the outside all night, sleep deprived, exposed to heavy-handed interrogation techniques, blaringly loud tapes and music, told that the usa had been invaded and taken over by the russians, and, that they would be broken from standing on the word..."
That's madness! Torture! Tied together? Locked up? Interrogated? What bloody ego trip was that?
Hands up all those who think VPW would have survived something like that! Without complaining!
That's madness! Torture! Tied together? Locked up? Interrogated? What bloody ego trip was that?
Hands up all those who think VPW would have survived something like that! Without complaining!
Yep, "madness" to do that stuff in corps training......for sure.
BUT also......it was "madness" to slander (i.e. character assassinations) leaders who were running back-to-back classes. Where was the outpouring of joy and excitement for peoples' deliverance from the devil's kingdom? Where was the support and thankfulness shown to those who were serving and ministering on the streets of hardened cities? Where were the testimonials.....bringing these leaders into hq to teach the 2nd and 3rd corps to give the best training and expertise possible? Why would wierwille "take a dagger" to these men's work and energized ministries? How incredibly short-sighted, selfish and narcissistic one must be to have such tunnel-vision? So, it really wasn't about "moving the word over the world" ...... it WAS ABOUT consolidating the power, control and money at wierwille's fingertips.
How did that work out, mister wierwille? Sure, power-grabbing the movements of Perez, Doop, Heefner, etc. brought money into the coffers at hq..... and maybe, a groundswell of young folk were duped into going into the corps (1976-1986)......And???? And then what? Selling off 4 corps campuses years later.....at reduced prices. Pathetic, anemic signups for classes and corps.....for decades. Plus, a hollowed-out empty echo chambered auditorium at headquarters.....er, DEADquarters....ppfffttt. Go ahead, eat your dollar bills with soup and crackers.
Surely, wierwille would embrace and honor scripture over selfish agendas, wouldn't he? What about his legacy? Oh, that's right...... wierwille had no concept that an internet would arrive on the scene and expose all his secrets and "good name."
A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold. Proverbs 22:1
A good name is better than precious ointment, and the day of death than the day of one's birth. Ecclesiastes 7:1
More often than not....down thru the years, way corps were the groomed intermediaries sent out to ensnare others into the corps, into subjugation. We were consistently taught (especially behind closed doors in the corps program).......that those who left were "cop outs." I REJECT THAT PREMISE.
What's to say that THOSE who walked away from wierwille's corps-subjugation program were the strong ones, mighty for the Lord, valiant for the TRUTH? Perez, Heefner, Doop, Somerville, etc......these were the ones seeing the power of the Lord in manifestation. On the streets healing drug addicts, turning hearts to the Lord. Signs. Miracles. Wonders. That's what was happening in the early 70s.......TRUE REVIVAL. Yes, they were running back-to-back classes, but I contend that it was merely a small framework of the dynamic outreach!! Walking in His presence. Ever-mindful of His spirit. Full-rejoicing in His glorious power to saints and sinners alike in the most precious name of our lord and savior Jesus Christ.
The true revival was spearheaded by humble men of sinful nature who stood tall in His mercy and grace!!!
Wierwille, time and again......thwarted energized ministries and co-opted individuals for his own selfish purposes. If there was any value to a structured learning environment like the corps program......it could have (should have) been like 3-4 months long, tops! No more. Crap, if you can't teach energized people these truths in 4 months......then, you're a counterfeit. Wierwille was a subjugating counterfeit..... claiming to be some "great one" (read: Acts 8 -- Simon the sorcerer).
All that gobbledygook of twi being "the true household, the true remnant"......is junk bible talk.
Perhaps, I was a recalcitrant recruit when I went in-residence corps in 1978.......I should not have gone corps. Within six weeks of this "training program"..... my inner conscience was skeptical of its methods. This certainly was deeply regimented compared to my college days..... not that I expected such freelance activity and bar hopping, per se. LOL. But geez, why were we rehashing thru the foundational pfal-stuff again? Dale Carnegie techniques to selling and motivate others? Retemories in your shirt pocket and be ready to recite a specific verse upon command.....in public? Generic health, fitness and well-being classes including menstrual cycles, ovulation and mucus method? Knowles breathing attendance in the wierwille library at 5:30am? Jet-style packing, really?
Each twig and/or branch coordinator will require you to keep forms up-to-date. Floss charts. Aerobic points. Monthly budget report ($20 was maximum allowed to be spent each month). Writing your sponsors faithfully. Roll call attendance for all meetings when we weren't assigned to twig-assemble.
Why all these FILLER classes and activities???
I guess that I thought going in-residence would be a step up from the advanced class, no? You know, all that emphasis on the revelation manifestations (word of knowledge, word of wisdom and discerning of spirits) AND the action manifestations (faith, miracles and healings). Maybe, I was just TOO IMPATIENT..... those teachings, and specifics, will be taught after we move thru the "walking to running" stages. Surely, there's going to be MORE than just this????
Nope.....there wasn't. Even when wierwille came to Emporia, I thought that we'd really see something special. Heck, "the man of God" was on campus for several days and his motor coach was parked behind Wierwille Library. He's well rested and well served at the lunch head table. Anything that he summoned was delivered to him promptly. He's been show double-honor with every protocol......so, tonight we are going to see ACTION, can't wait. And then, another tepid teaching. Ugh. The times when wierwille became most highly animated and angered were when confrontations were dished out to dissenting corps. Wierwille snuffed out questioning dissent in his corps program.......and the dissenter.
Good people, good leaders walk away......because THIS was not education, THIS was indoctrination.
THIS was not excellence in Christian education......THIS was vile indoctrination.
Perhaps, I was a recalcitrant recruit when I went in-residence corps in 1978.......I should not have gone corps. Within six weeks of this "training program"..... my inner conscience was skeptical of its methods. This certainly was deeply regimented compared to my college days..... not that I expected such freelance activity and bar hopping, per se. LOL. But geez, why were we rehashing thru the foundational pfal-stuff again? Dale Carnegie techniques to selling and motivate others? Retemories in your shirt pocket and be ready to recite a specific verse upon command.....in public? Generic health, fitness and well-being classes including menstrual cycles, ovulation and mucus method? Knowles breathing attendance in the wierwille library at 5:30am? Jet-style packing, really?
Each twig and/or branch coordinator will require you to keep forms up-to-date. Floss charts. Aerobic points. Monthly budget report ($20 was maximum allowed to be spent each month). Writing your sponsors faithfully. Roll call attendance for all meetings when we weren't assigned to twig-assemble.
Why all these FILLER classes and activities???
I guess that I thought going in-residence would be a step up from the advanced class, no? You know, all that emphasis on the revelation manifestations (word of knowledge, word of wisdom and discerning of spirits) AND the action manifestations (faith, miracles and healings). Maybe, I was just TOO IMPATIENT..... those teachings, and specifics, will be taught after we move thru the "walking to running" stages. Surely, there's going to be MORE than just this????
Nope.....there wasn't. Even when wierwille came to Emporia, I thought that we'd really see something special. Heck, "the man of God" was on campus for several days and his motor coach was parked behind Wierwille Library. He's well rested and well served at the lunch head table. Anything that he summoned was delivered to him promptly. He's been show double-honor with every protocol......so, tonight we are going to see ACTION, can't wait. And then, another tepid teaching. Ugh. The times when wierwille became most highly animated and angered were when confrontations were dished out to dissenting corps. Wierwille snuffed out questioning dissent in his corps program.......and the dissenter.
Good people, good leaders walk away......because THIS was not education, THIS was indoctrination.
THIS was not excellence in Christian education......THIS was vile indoctrination.
.
Sky it’s funny I was thinking about this and our training. We were trained product salesmen, no different than traveling around hucking vacuum cleaners or encyclopedias.
The parts of our training that helped instill any kind of discipline in me I am thankful for. Of course the overall arching idea of being groomed as a pawn for a selfish hedonists pleasures is the part that is the most difficult to acknowledge for many, some would prefer a seared conscience and false narrative. That part makes me sick.
I can actually look at most genuine acts I had during that period as a minister to be outside that framework and pattern rather than perpetuating it.
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chockfull
It was worse than that. We worked secular jobs that we couldn't focus on to earn money to pay for rent for a large enough home to hold church meetings in. Then on top of that we sent in tithes and o
WordWolf
From the above link.... "Communal ‘hippie house’ in S.F. Bay Area was ground zero for Jesus Movement By Mark Ellis – They called it the Big House, a large ranch house in Novato, Califor
Rejoice
Speaking of Heefner and Doop, I came across this bit of history of the early, INDEPENDENT days of the late 1960's hippy Jesus movement. VPW stole their work and followers. https://www.godreports
WordWolf
This question would be better answered by those who were there. What I know is that they were with the House of Acts. That was a hippie movement of "Jesus freak" Christians. I'm under the impression that those were humble Christians of faith who were causing a stir in Haight Ashbury by being themselves. https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/23755-the-jesus-hippie-movement/
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waysider
How did ANY of us get duped by VPW?
I don't know.
Conmen have a way, that transcends simple explanation, of making you abandon logic and reason.
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skyrider
Thanks WordWolf......for hunting these links down.
Jim Doop, The Way West and VP
I see, looking back in hindsight, where VP, in order to be successful, hijacked two ministries. The first, was B.G. Leonard's - he stole his class, almost word for word, charts, etc. This class gave him a product to sell.
The second, was his going to CA, and finding men who would win the youth for him. He knew he never could. VP could be very loving and charismatic and kind to people when he wanted something or their allegiance. I do not fault Doop or Heefner at all. They heard the Word in PFAL, which was Leonard's teaching and realized this was a great way to get the message out. It was a tool for them to spread the Word.
All of the members in TWI were a direct result of Doop and Heefner. As we kids moved, we told others. The hippie kids got in TWI because of these two in CA and NY, some travelled to Kansas and other states - over a couple of years it moved out all over the country. Remember, the sixties and early '70s was a time of wandering, hitchhiking youth all over the place, a nomadic generation.
Once Doop and Heefner were gone, you never had quite the explosion of the early years. Yes, people were won for a while after, mostly by men who had been with Doop and Heefner, but that leveled off, the explosiveness was lost. Once VP took the reigns it became rule oriented. I remember I was sorely disappointed in '71 when I was told I couldn't fellowship in Rye anymore, I now had to go to Larchmont fellowships. All of a sudden, the go where you want, fellowship with whoever, was being taken away. The rules started coming down, many of us started drifting away. It started becoming corporate under VPs rule - and I believe he knew exactly what he was doing, since, with the expulsion of Doop and Heefner, it was now "his" ministry.
Yes, I have wondered what would have happened if VP hadn't stuck his finger in the pie and siphoned off, maybe one-third of the movement to himself.
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skyrider
For more back ground to Twinky's question......here's another interesting post from the Jim Doop thread:
I thought there was still a Way East and a Way West at the time of the separation between Doop & Heefner, and The Way, but maybe VP incorporated The Way 1st & then kicked them out. I didn't think so. I wondered why Steve and Jim didn't just tell VP to kiss off at the time. There was no twi, no authoritarian hierarchical power structure, no Way Tree (VP had gotten the "revelation" as he called it, he had taught it, but it wasn't in place in NY or CA at the time), no centralized abundant sharing. Even if VP had done something legal turning the Way into a corporation (as I said, I think that came later - very soon later), it wouldn't have mattered. There was no question in anyone's mind about loyalty to VP, the man of God - in the WC, no doubt, but not on the field. Had Steve and Jim just kept up what they were doing, everyone would have just kept up what they were doing right along with them. I just don't get it.
I know one of the things VP was complaining about was that he had no way of keeping track of the money. That was his stated point of contention with Heefner; VP said Steve was doing yada, yada, yada with the money. That summer (what we were told was that Steve was taking a sabbatical), Steve Perez (who God told to move to NY & told him the Word would move if he did - who started the ministry in LI) and Ed Goebel, his assistant, a couple of sharp fellows, put together a system whereby VP could track the ABS (the truly self-financing way we were doing it in NY at the time). They presented it to VP at summer school. I met them after they returned from meeting with VP. His response was that he was going to centralize the ABS.
He said that it was only a temporary measure. He said that he knew the way that we were doing it was the right way to do it, but that the believers were too immature to handle the money properly. He said that, after the believers matured, we would return to the grassroots way of handling ABS - the Word's way.
Wait a minute! Doesn't the Word say that if a man can't handle the mammon, that God is not going to entrust that man with the true spiritual riches? How then were all these signs, miracles, and wonders happening? How then did God entrust the believers with the hearts of so many that were turning on to the Word? Are they not the true spiritual riches that the same God said he would not entrust to people who could not handle the mammon? Pretty soon, the way we had been doing the ABS was no longer the RIGHT way; it was WRONG and DEVILISH, and you'd better not bring it up in a positive light, or YOU were spiritually compromised. BS.
I wonder if the leaders weren't too impressed with the value of PFAL as a tool to move the Word. We were in the midst of over a year of running back to back film classes in LI. We were so young; I think the leadership wondered what to do with people once you witnessed to them without the class & materials.
Should have told VP to kiss off.
Ah well - easy for me to say.
.
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skyrider
Those big herd-fests from the mid-70s to early-80s never ceased......once twi had its power consolidated and its centralized-bureaucracy in place. No more itineraries for the traveling-mog. The
Pompous...er, Prevailing Auditorium was the new, shiny object to behold.When things nose-dived after geer's poisoned, preposterous, pretentious proclamations......the centralized-focus from headquarters had to regroup (1986-1990). So, what happened? Baby steps. Small and friendly rock of ages.... Craig, Don and Howard were actually down-on-the-ground greeting and shaking hands with the corps and faithful followers. Emphasis on love and unity....building back what had been lost/stolen.
Then, with each year......bigger meetings. Martindale was going to teach a LIVE advanced class at the Indiana Campus. All faithful corps and advanced class grads should (NEED) to attend. With nearly 80% of corps gone.....all eyes were on *Advanced Class Grads* to rise up and serve. Therefore, twi set in motion Advanced Class Specials (more herd-fests) to
coerce.....er, strengthen efforts to move forward. It's the mass formation way to encourage, manipulate and coerce the herd to move into the corral to brand them.Even worse.....twi started doing Annual Advanced Class Specials in Dallas over Thanksgiving Weekend.
As a corps grad in Oklahoma City, my wife and I were "invited" (assigned to work) to attend these Advanced Class Specials in 1995, 1996 and 1997. My responsibility was to be Mrs. Wierwille's escort. When we left twi in August 1998.....I even received another "invite letter" around October 1. LOL
One of my comments that I posted years ago:
Dallas, Again: When this letter arrived in the mail, I knew what it said....even before opening it. Once again, I was "invited" to attend the Advanced Class Special in Dallas, November 1996. And, again......be Mrs. Wierwille's escort. Well, I guess that I must have done a fair job, because no one else was assigned to it. That spoke volumes. My wife would, once again, be working in the green room.
Another Thanksgiving weekend with the "cult family." It had been 20 years since I'd been home for Thanksgiving.....around my parents' table, eating a good home-cooked meal. Growing up in a hunting family......one year at Thanksgiving with aunts and uncles, we had turkey, duck, pheasant, goose and quail. Now, THAT was a wild game meal to behold. Most always during our family get-togethers, we'd head out the door around 7am and hunt pheasant for about three hours Thanksgiving morning. Then, we'd field-dress the birds and enjoy the fresh pheasant. Those days were long gone.......now I spent Thanksgiving dressed in a suit and my butt in a chair.
I must have been insane.......
.
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skyrider
After reading thru this thread again........ Jim Doop, The Way West and VP
There's a window of twi-history (1969-1972) before wierwille's establishment-men (yes-men) and way
pyramid....er, tree were structured to funnel all power and money to headquarters..... that twi doesn't want people to see. WOW. Men like Perez, Heefner, Doop, and others on the frontlines of ministering to others and walking with the power of God. Touchstones to the Jesus Movement. Evolving into another Youth Movement. The Groovy Christians of Rye, New York. Excitement. Deliverance. Healing. The spirit of God opening doors.Notice: Who did wierwille bring in to run New York after ousting Heefner? Bobby Moneyhands. Yep, nearly 50 years ago..... slick-vic brings in "his guy" to replace all this back-to-back class activity with an establishment-guy. From all that we now know about wierwille....this all makes sense.
Imagine....seeing all this 50 years ago, supporting (covering) wierwille and his sins, top-tier of clergy list, region guy, campus/ corps coordinator for years, etc. .... AND THEN, OUSTED WITH MARK & AVOID LABEL.
Any thought about this cover-up, Bob Moneyhands?
It seems to ALWAYS be the corps coordinators and assistants ...... who start up Splinter Cults.
They are the drill sergeants of groupthink indoctrination and are locked into an echo chamber that they seem unable to escape. They persist on leading others in this quixotic journey of rigid conformism. When in truth.....they are the ones who are the beneficiaries of selling soap. They enjoy travel, leisure, flexibility, perks, payment, ease in retirement and adulation. Who could ask for anything more?
This background and more, is why I think...............Splinter Cults are WORSE.
.
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T-Bone
Great correlations, Skyrider and it brings more thoughts to mind – that last paragraph is just scintillating !
The first thing my mind went to is the passage:
“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you cross land and sea to make one convert, and then you turn that person into twice the child of hell you yourselves are!”
Matthew 23:15 NLT
The entire chapter 23rd chapter of Matthew is an exposé on religious hypocrites. The label of “drill sergeants of groupthink indoctrination” makes me think of my ways corps training. And this is a real weird and out of focus concept I’m still trying to articulate. Way corps program created by the premier hypocrite – wierwille. His first attempt zeros out - which makes me think of an old proverb “Those who can, do; those who can't, teach” which means those who are especially skilled in a certain field will be able to pursue a successful career, while those who are less skilled will end up teaching about it instead. What that may indicate is that the work done in that field is too challenging, or simply the lack of capacity on their part....so wierwille even failed at being a teacher...or did he?
Now here’s a quirky concept: what if the way corps training was really a clone factory – with a curriculum designed to turn out the ideal hypocrite – little wierwilles. Not everyone is going to excel at hypocrisy but those who do may aspire to be the corps coordinators and assistants.
(Thought of the day to go along with Matthew 23:15 “each one hypocrifry one” – not sure if “hypocrifry” is a real word – but it could be – “I wish you could see it in the original – it’s just oh no…”
Hypocrisy – noun - the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; pretense.
Hypocrifry – verb - to cook someone’s conscience in a pan, griddle or way corps campus over the blistering heat of constant beratement especially with the use of fat (the natural sleazy, greasy, creepy substance occurring in the body of wierwille’s “doctrine”).
* * * * and now a brief intermission * * *
Talk amongst yourselves
Do the 4-15s
note to self: find out how vampires take a self-assessment if they don’t see their own reflection in a mirror
Now back to our show…
“It seems to ALWAYS be the corps coordinators and assistants ...... who start up Splinter Cults” and the beat goes on – meaning the virus of wierwille’s-hypocrisy-rich-doctrine moves on regardless of whether or not other suckers fall for it.
Virus just might be an apt description of wierwille’s-hypocrisy-rich-doctrine. I’m trying to remember wierwille’s advanced class teaching regarding detecting devil spirits – something like “whenever something has life in itself it’s spirit” – or some bull$hit like that…what does it matter…it’s just more bull$hit from the spiritualism-musings-of-an-ancient-hypocrite…anyway, that got me thinking about how viruses replicate – something I remember from reading The Hot Zone: The Terrifying True Story of the Origins of the Ebola Virus by Richard Preston explaining how viruses work – they can’t reproduce – so they sneak into other cells and tell them “make more of me”. Sounds like wierwille talking doesn’t it.
Did a quick search of how viruses replicate and found this:
“Viruses cannot replicate on their own, but rather depend on their host cell’s protein synthesis pathways to reproduce. This typically occurs by the virus inserting its genetic material in host cells, co-opting the proteins to create viral replicates, until the cell bursts from the high volume of new viral particles.” from News-Medical Net Health: viral replication almost sounds like the strategy of a parasite.
wierwille was a parasite in every way - not just in plagiarism. Is narcissism parasitic? Looked up the definition of Malignant narcissism – it’s a psychological syndrome comprising an extreme mix of narcissism, antisocial behavior, aggression, and sadism. Grandiose, and always ready to raise hostility levels, the malignant narcissist undermines families and organizations in which they are involved and dehumanizes the people with whom they associate. That def is from Wikipedia – and it had a picture of wierwille next to it – no no – just kidding – but I wish you could see it in the original…ok no more PFAL-flashbacks…but I do think there’s a PTSD for some grads – “it’s like I’m still in the class, man.” Forrest Gump should tell them about Grease Spot Café…
Edited by T-Boneedited within The Hot Zone - Grease Spot anti-viral zone actually
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Bolshevik
Hmm. Narcissistic Personality Disorders fall in love with their own Image, not themselves, but their image. The sucky situation of being unable to see this image must drive the vampire batty, which also kinda look like little flying monkeys.
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skyrider
"I wish I were the man I know to be." victor paul wierwille
I wish.........
I were........
I know.......
.
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chockfull
Wow great thread sky and all. Threads like these tie together the history that the Way desperately wants to hide from its followers. A detailed analysis of the people and components involved from mature minds that are no longer 20 - 25 year’s old.
The small bit I have to contribute is from the one time I traveled to the Haight-Ashbury district of San Francisco and had a look around at all the 1960s hippie counter culture history. There were many attractions during this time period including the Grateful Dead house at 710 Ashbury Jerry Garcia’s house. Free love, psychedelics, the Bible were all a major part of the hippie Jesus counterculture movement of the 60s. I believe Doop hung out at a storefront there called The Living Room, which was a lounge area for kids to get together and talk about God and the Bible. Wierwille being slightly older at that time probably developed his leisure suit Larry look during that time trying to fit in as “The Doctor”.
Getting these hippies out to the farm, drying them out, teaching them some etiquette (Dorothy Owens) and propping them up as new respectable ordained ministers was Vics methodology. Then shuffle them around enough they don’t have time to form their own Living Room type influence locally, and come up with a lame excuse to collect all the money centrally.
But they were too lazy to be able to do that outside the USA. So international Way is 3x the cluster f. In Africa the Way is 100% cultural appropriation Christianity exactly like the paper Vic wrote criticizing foreign missions in his old denomination. No he didn’t do it better when he was in charge. Other areas were strong personalities and did whatever they wanted and kept the money internationally. The money is why international followers splintered off ahead of the USA body of lemmings.
USA has just been under the 2 current VP d bags doing RFRs bidding for a couple decades, growing smaller and more disconnected from the world. Now they are free to do whatever they want with the 10 followers left. Their current campaign of returning to the good old days and inviting the youth to a music festival is about as lame as a retirement community leisure suit, which is what they will be wearing there.
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waysider
Instead of a bong, they'll be passing around a bottle of Prevagen.
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skyrider
Thanks chockfull......yes, it is enlightening to tie historical accounts of twi from a field perspective for others to see. Today's chumps who sit in twi's "directors" chairs are little more than glassy-eyed loyalists to the groupthink message of "...praise be to wierwille."
DWBH post
Your post reminded me of why in the hell I decided to go into the way corpse in the first place. It was right after the 2nd and 3rd corpses came into NY, on the first of what were to become known as “Lightbearers”......the in-Rez corpse “practical challenge” to prove the efficacy and reality of the corpse training in the the lives of “god’s most committed” followers of the way. That was in the late spring and early summer of 1973. It was the 2nd corpse (graduating that August) and the 3rd corpse (finishing up their first year in-Rez).
Unlike the subsequent “practical challenges” of “Lightbearers” groups, which were primarily made up of getting a piffle class together within a two week visit to an area of “concern, interest, and need”, this group was sent out on the mission to kick foot, take names, and “straighten things out” in the limb of NY, which had been hit very hard by the putsch-like firing of Steve and Sandi Heefener in March of 1972, and the resistance to Boob and Doody Moneyhands having been brought in as the new limb bosses.
I had been a “full-time ministry employee” at the way of Long Island from September 1971 through May, 1972. Steve and Laurie Perez were the full-time area leaders for the way of Long Island, which they started from scratch in the fall of 1970. There was an authentic Christian “revival” in lower NY among the young people and hippies of the time. Steve and Laurie sparked a non-stop slew of piffle film classes at a clip of 4 or 5 a month from Suffolk, Nassau & Queens, for 12 months in a row, leading up to the AC in Rye, NY in March, 1972, during which the Heefners were publically slandered and spitefully fired.
When the Heefners got fired, the Perezs quit. That left Ed Goebel, John Petty, and me as the remaining full-timers down in lower NY from the 5 boroughs of the City to Nassau and Suffolk Counties. We all decided to quit full-time employment with the way of NY, but, except for Ed, we retained our oversized branches to keep running classes. At that time, the whole “blue form” send all the $$ to HQ thing began too! So, it had been quite a year of fighting and resisting for the lower NY areas by the time the 2nd and 3rd showed up in June of 1973.
I was busy getting ready for the ROA ‘73 and finalizing my decision on whether or not to go into the corpse that fall. I got married in July of that year and 2 weeks later was at HQ for summer school and in-Rez. I was playing back- up guitar for Cliff, and lead guitar for Sweet Fellowship (most of whom were going into the 4th corpse) and we backed-up a whole bunch of other groups from the Northeast. Doug MacMullan was 3rd Corpse and he was specifically assigned to work with all us “way productions” people to get us ready for the ROA that year. It was total HELL! LOL! Rehearsals were these 14 hour marathons at Ray Bertine’s parents’ farm in upstate NY, with Mac Mullan telling us to smile, and move, and look at the audience, and, and, and, and.........,
It was during that week of rehearsals at the farm, that I made the decision to go into the corpse. My thoughts were these:
I could see the handwriting on the subway walks pretty damn clearly! If anyone wanted to have any leadership position in the way it would eventually require doing time in da corpse! THAT was made quite obvious to us by vp himself during that month-long Advanced Class in Rye, and by Boob and Doody with their smarmy obsequious worship of all things dictor paul, and by the book bondage”leadership” style.
I just wanted to get married, run the Queens/Brooklyn Area Of NY for the way, and make my living playing music. I did NOT want to go be a limp leader or staff person somewhere. I wanted to stay in NY, get married, play music, and “move da word”!! LOL! There’s the language manipulation again!!
Well, once we were in the way corpse gulag at HQ, EVERYTHING CHANGED! VP had big plans for us Way Productions keedz that we had no idea about! Then, suddenly, there was an Interim year added!!! WTF?? And then......JCING came out.....and then PFAL ‘77.....and then AC ‘79......and then The 40th Anniversary Year weekends, Living Victoriously, The Installation of Da forehead on the 40th Anniversary, Sound Out ‘84.....WIBAP.......one mega event after another and no time to think about what the hell we were doing other than we were “just moving the word”!! Well that wound up a big bust! LOL!
Point of it all being, I never went into the way corpse to be a lifelong ful-time “Minister”! I just wanted to get married, run a branch or two for the way of NY in the City, and play music. I only wanted the corpse so HQ would leave us alone in NY! Leave us alone to run classes, glorify Jesus, play music, have fun, and live life! But, dictor Paul had other ideas. He manipulated the meaning of “a lifetime of Christian service” into a lifetime of indentured servitude to his personal perverted peccadilloes and pathological illnesses. I pity the fool.
.
Edited by skyriderhighlighting for emphasis
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skyrider
For years, I'd wondered why twi-history seemed to have this BLACKOUT of those 1970-1973 years
Seemed like all the messaging was the corps training of those early corps. Very little was highlighted about what was happening on the field. What happened to all those early leaders? Why were SO MANY GOOD LEADERS LEAVING? Sure, I'd heard bits and pieces..... like Donnie Fugit in Kansas and the Way Home in North Carolina.....but NOT THIS.
Now I see........there were rifts and infighting until wierwille sent the 2nd and 3rd corps into New York in 1973.
And, the cover-up.....that followed.
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Bolshevik
. . . you're pointing out a pattern of exodus events spanning VPW's entire existence . . . and TWI's.
Likely part of a cycle . . . perhaps the discard portion?
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skyrider
“Likely part of a cycle . . . perhaps the discard portion?”
Rather than focusing on the narcissist again ……or the narcissistic cycle, I see a pattern that continues to emerge over and over again. GOOD PEOPLE, GOOD LEADERS WALK AWAY.
More later……….
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T-Bone
Yes !
With all the revealing history on this thread and links I’m hoping a lot of TWI folks (both “old timers” as well as new recruits) give that statement and this history lesson some serious thought - - and maybe some self-examination if applicable.
I had this crazy idea as a wannabe cult-comedy writer of a scene late one night - all the board of directors happen to be gathered around the fountain where wierwille is buried - discussing the dwindling number of followers - and even more importantly, less money coming in.
Then one of them says - “hey, remember in the Advanced Class, Doctor Wierwille’s teaching about the witch of Endor, where Saul asked the witch to summon the spirit of the prophet Samuel and ask for advice against the Philistines in battle…well…I’ve been thinking…how about we get Rosalie to summon the spirit of Doctor Wierwille and ask him what to do….desperate times call for desperate measures.”
Some burst into nervous laughter…some dropped their coffee mugs, hot chocolate or Drambuie…one of them broke into an ecstatic language with a little Latin twist at the end, “Lo Shonta Mecca Lekka High etcetera etcetera etcetera “ one person flicked their cigarette at the speaker, and one person farted, waved their hand dismissively said “phfffft - I’m outta here” and stormed off - and it was night (oh yeah, I mentioned that already…change that to stormed off into deeper oblivion).
Another bored director says “hey wait a minute…that’s not a bad idea. What do we have to lose? There’s a fifty fifty chance Doctor Wierwille was wrong about the dead not being alive and Rosalie actually does summon the spirit of Doctor Wierwille…uhm…remember not to stare at his glass eye…now…on the other hand if it’s a devil spirit impersonating Doctor Wierwille then - “ he’s interrupted mid sentence by another leader, uncontrollably shaking while smoking four cigarettes simultaneously “h-h-how will we kn-kn-know if it’s really Doctor Wierwille or a devil spirit?!?!”
One executive who was always the most shy and withdrawn blurts out “what’s the matter, Dumba$$ you forgot how to operate discerning of spirits?”
Another more prudent executive (who used to be over the risk assessment department at a local wastewater treatment plant - for those times when there was an excessive flow of $hit) says “ an impersonator is gonna slip up somewhere - the spirit will have two good eyes…or maybe the ectoplasm facsimile of a glass eye is on the wrong side…or the lying spirit says ‘that’s right’ instead of ‘dats riiiiiight’. “
The chief financial officer loudly clapped his hands together and says, “Let’s do it !!!! Fifty fifty odds ain’t bad at all. That’s a helluva lot better than what we get at Vegas or the stock market- which by the way , has sucked for us since the pandemic…either way we got nothing to lose. If it’s the real make believe man of god he’ll know what to do…and if it’s a devil spirit impersonating the real make believe man of god - he’ll know what to do…six of one half a dozen of the other…it’s like a lot of things, kids. “
Edited by T-BoneIs it live or is it Memorex impersonating live music? Operate the discerning of decibel spirits
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Rocky
There is plenty of literature on the subject now, including but not limited to:
The Confidence Game
Malignant Pied Pipers of our Time
Undertow
The Cult that Snapped
Dark Persuasion
Edited by RockyAny book by Steven Hassan
and several more. Key is that EVERY SINGLE HUMAN is subject to being conned.
What constitutes and how to develop and foster critical thinking skill can be (and sometimes IS) taught in k-12 schools AND by/in families.
Historical and cultural literacy is crucial background knowledge/understanding that can help immunize people young and old against (religious and political) cults.
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Rocky
At age 19, when I first was introduced to TWI, VPW, and PFLAP, I can say now with great confidence that I was grossly deficient in emotional and intellectual tools to immunize me from a fundamentalist Christian cult. Besides emotional immaturity and longing for belonging and for a more robust knowledge of spiritual realities, I had been raised in a culture steeped in Christian dogma and symbolism. If not for that cultural background, I could have been vulnerable to a wider range of cults.
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skyrider
GOOD PEOPLE, GOOD LEADERS WALK AWAY
More to come
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Time and again, we hear the GSC-accounts of good leaders walking away from twi. With documented evidence, it certainly raises the issue, "What would have happened in twi and around the country if these good men and women wouldn't have been driven away?"
Another insightful post by DWBH:
john som---ille has a phd in physical education......he has been married to mary wie===lle for over 30 years now.......he is a high ranking officer in the usmc reserves, (if he is not yet retired from the reserves).......he was an assistant to woody hayes at ohio state university when woody was the head football coach there......his brother tim and john started the way's "work" in north carolina at ecu.......john is a viet nam veteran......vic used to tell us that john volunteered for duty in viet nam in order to prove that the revelation and power manifestations are real and work as vic taught them to wayfers in the advanced class.....john is a decorated officer for his outstanding military service in viet nam, as well as numerous other outstanding achievements in the marine corps......he has also worked in an advisory capacity with the idf.....israeli defense forces....in israel.....work for which he was recognized again by the u.s. military, as well as the idf.......i first met john in 1972 when several of us way east branch coordinators were invited to hq by vic after the firing of steve heefner during the ac in rye, ny in april of 72...........to see vic's "heart" and the "heart of the ministry" so's we would stick with twi and not "run off" with heefner and others after the "not so subtle" power play by twi in it's complete takeover of the way east..........at that time, john was in charge of "college outreach" for twi and was the man who designed the physical trainng program that was part of the corps training back then...........he was definitely a "man's man" during the entire time that i knew him back then.......absolutely respected by us corps "kids" and, generally respected throughout the ministry as far as i could tell............he also coordinated twi's original holy land tours.......and led several of them with great success and excitement back in the early 70's.........my personal experiences with john were always positive and i held in him in high regard, as i do to this day....although my last personal contact with him was back in the late 70's......
john was his own man.......during my first year in da corps (the way corps, that is)....we took his class on old testament history.....which was excellent btw......and i began to see the first glimpses of his conflict with vic..........glimpses that became less and less private as that year unfolded..........he had a "knack" for really pizzing vic off with his unflinching honesty and "sarcastic" humor in the face of some really intense "facemeltings" directed at him by vic, both pubicly and privately!!.........vic would criticize john publicly about something he would teach or say during the old t class, and john would throw it right back at vic.......it was great to observe!!!!..........vic often publicly ranted about john's "ego problem" with vic..........and i mean rant!!.....you know, that purple-faced, neck-vein popping kinda rant that only vic could perform!!.........made the dancing prez look like a mickey mouse version of ranting!!..........my take on these rants??.......vic was deeply jealous of john's obvious intelligence and the real achievements of john academically, as a true military "hero", and at his refusal to compromise his own integrity as a "man's man" in the face of the vicious verbal assaults and personal attacks from his father-in-law!!..........he was jealous of john because john was real, not just a pompous phoney like his father-in-law!.....vic feared john, because, in spite of vic's best shots, vic could not break his son-in-law!!...i had several profound, personal conversations with john about my observations of his relationship with vic.......honest, probing and quite revealing conversations for which i am still grateful today to john for engaging in with me.........
in 1974, john left hq and set up the total fitness instiute (tfi) in north fork, ca with the financial assistance of j--n s. l--n and the "blessing" of vic..........tfi was to become the real testing and training ground for the way corps folks.........the experience which would really show vic who his toughest future leaders and workers would be..........it was also open to public sessions which were like twi's version of outward bound, and it rapidly gained a popularity among the corps and non-corps attendees as a real test of a believer's mettle when it came to operating all-9-all-the- time..........it was the precursor to LEAD, which was the vic perverted and controlled version of what john had in mind for tfi!.........it was during the tfi sessions of the spring of 1975 that vic first "ordered" john do the pow camp thingy...... i was on the field in my interim year corps assignment (we were the first corps to have one).......and my lc was one of the attendees at the tfi session where martindale and other "top" corps leaders were given the pow treatment..........they were exposed to the illuminati tapes by myron cohen, and the tapes on music by the marx fella, etc.......they were tied together at points, kept locked up in heavy cardboard boxes which were pounded on from the outside all night, sleep deprived, exposed to heavy-handed interrogation techniques, blaringly loud tapes and music, told that the usa had been invaded and taken over by the russians, and, that they would be broken from standing on the word.........it was a very real experience of what a pow camp might have been like if those circumstances regarding the fall of the usa had been true..........martindale was not the "only survivor" of this pow camp passionplay..........he started an "escape attempt" type of maneuver during which he caused the "deaths" of most of his fellow "prisoners" by his feeble attempt at being the hero/leader........a maneuver for which he was roundly criticized in his final tfi evaluation which was written by john som---ille on each of the participants..........there were several participants who were indeed "broken" during this experiment.......and their "reward" was humiliation in front of the corps and they were never really "trusted" again with choice leadership assignments because of their proven weakness in the face of the enemy!!!...........the participants were sworn to secrecy.....so that the pow experiments could continue unhindered during future tfi sessions..........but, as you can tell from the amount of info i gathered from my lc upon his return, the secret got out fast.........but the pow experiments continued through the tfi session of that spring and summer until october, 1975..........when there were some serious physical and psycho-emotional injuries that occurred during tfi...........all of which, vic blamed on the "total lack of believing" on the part of those "injured"............i did my tfi trip in november, 1975..........and although several of the pow situations were thrown at us.....the pow scenario itself had been watered down so as to avoid any further injuries.........
the tfi experience for the in-rez corps involved the following "rules"..........each tfi group was to hitch-hike to and from north fork in "couples", that is, you chose your travelling partner from among the group........we were encouraged not to choose our spouses, but my spouse was under 20 at the time so i refused to let her go with anyone else..........each person was given a $20 bill so as not to get busted for vagrancy if stopped or questioned by state or local police while hitch-hiking.........it was made plain that if you did not arrive at north fork with the entire $20 you would be immediatley turned back to hitch-hike home.......or, if you made it back without the $20 intact you would receive a failing final evaluation.........you were allotted 72 hours maximum to make the trip each way.......if you took more than 72 hours to get there, you were again immediately turned back to hitch-hike home, refused participation in the tfi program......if you took more than 72 hours to get back home, you again were giving a failing final evaluation.........my wife and i were dropped off at a truck stop near I-75 and it's juncture with I-70 at about 6pm and we then had 72 hours to make our way to north fork, ca........by hook or by crook...........we made it in 70 hours.........no sleep, no stopping, both our $20 bills in pocket!!...........i remember how sad i felt for the unfortunate few who took longer than 72 hours to get there........i literally cried as i watched them turned around after their grueling trip out to ca, no food, no rest.......just a facemelting phone call from vic telling them they flunked and that they better make it home on time or they'd be kicked out of the corps!!..........i watched 6 people have to go through that bs!............
before i left for tfi, i was called to vic's office for a "meetring" with him.........we sat out on the porch by his office, smoking a couple of cigarrettes..........vic asked me to keep our conversation "confidential".........he said that he knew that i had become "close" to john som---ille, during my first year in-rez........he said he knew that i could "talk with john "man-to-man"..........he said that john's "unbridled ego" was going to ruin tfi.........he just was not "seeing" what father wanted vic to do with tfi.......he said john was once again "fighting him" (vic) on the "guidance" god was providing........and he asked me to try to talk with john about his "ego problem" with his father-in-law, hoping that maybe i could "get through to him"..............so, on a cliff overhanging the sierra nevada mountains, having just successfully scaled jackass rock, with only john and jack wilson with me (i had been "banned" from the group assault on jackass rock the day before for taking an "unauthorized picture" of two lindas relieving their bladders behind a log while we were all tied together by a single rope for the day's hike to the foot of jackass rock.........lol!).........while jack was busy preparing for the descent, i had my "man-to-man" talk with john..........one of the greatest conversations i ever had with any wayfer in my life, brutally honest, refreshingly quiet in tone with mutual respect........needless to say,.....i never really "got through" to john about his "ego problem" with his father-in-law!!..........by the end of my first question and his respnse, i saw there was absolutely no need for me to..........there was not a thing wrong with john's ego..........the problems were with the ego of his father-in-law!!!...........
soooo,...........what's my point???...............the entire confrontation session you poor FLO folks had with that guy who probably lived in a van down by the olentangy river was just another perverted distortion of what had been a good idea of john som---ille's that was perverted, twisted, and morphed into another psychosocial torture mechanism designed by vic to break down and control the most willing and faithful followers of his way in ohio..........arranged by a lc who was as afraid of the whole thing as you were, but who was more afraid of what his "father-in-the-word" would do or say if he did'nt carry out his orders!!............i hope your "facilitator" was not bill m--ze.........but it very well could have been..........bill was a terrific dale carnegie isnstructor whom vic "took under his wing" and also eventually destroyed what started out as a unique and valuable service to the corps........bill was tied to vic all the way back to the chimes hour youth caravan daze........he was almost like an "adopted son" of vic's,.......and we all know too well what that can do to a man!............ sorry for the length of this post.......but the memories sometimes come in waves..........................peace.
.
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skyrider
GOOD PEOPLE, GOOD LEADERS WALK AWAY.
More later……….
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The scriptures warn us of evil men, seducers, deceivers, taskmasters, etc......those who desire to ensnare us. Whether it be Pharisees or Pharaohs, the truth is plain to see: BEWARE and REBUKE. The first usage of this word "snare" is seen in......Exodus 10:7 And Pharaoh's servants said unto him, How long shall this man be a snare unto us? let the men go, that they may serve the LORD their God.
Recognizing an unholy alliance and/or covenant towards man's authority is the first step towards freedom. Down thru the ages, even to this day.....evil, arrogant aspirations of men and organizations are around every corner to entice and subjugate. Most every organization and/or movement targets the youth. They are the most vulnerable. Young minds are malleable.....and once groomed to discipleship, they provide decades of value (return on investment). Deception is key and thus, there seems to be an intermediary (a groomed peer) placed in a position to "run the ruse." The deceiver is stealthily hidden from view.
More often than not....down thru the years, way corps were the groomed intermediaries sent out to ensnare others into the corps, into subjugation. We were consistently taught (especially behind closed doors in the corps program).......that those who left were "cop outs." I REJECT THAT PREMISE.
What's to say that THOSE who walked away from wierwille's corps-subjugation program were the strong ones, mighty for the Lord, valiant for the TRUTH? Perez, Heefner, Doop, Somerville, etc......these were the ones seeing the power of the Lord in manifestation. On the streets healing drug addicts, turning hearts to the Lord. Signs. Miracles. Wonders. That's what was happening in the early 70s.......TRUE REVIVAL. Yes, they were running back-to-back classes, but I contend that it was merely a small framework of the dynamic outreach!! Walking in His presence. Ever-mindful of His spirit. Full-rejoicing in His glorious power to saints and sinners alike in the most precious name of our lord and savior Jesus Christ.
The true revival was spearheaded by humble men of sinful nature who stood tall in His mercy and grace!!!
Wierwille, time and again......thwarted energized ministries and co-opted individuals for his own selfish purposes. If there was any value to a structured learning environment like the corps program......it could have (should have) been like 3-4 months long, tops! No more. Crap, if you can't teach energized people these truths in 4 months......then, you're a counterfeit. Wierwille was a subjugating counterfeit..... claiming to be some "great one" (read: Acts 8 -- Simon the sorcerer).
All that gobbledygook of twi being "the true household, the true remnant"......is junk bible talk.
Down thru the ages, the true remnant are those who cleave to the truths of John 15:1-8.......I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. (etc.) Good people, good leaders have been walking away from twi since wierwille's days in Van Wert. The church board voted unanimously to have his name stricken from the clergy register......and they were absolutely right in doing so.
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Twinky
"...given the pow treatment..........they were exposed to the illuminati tapes by myron cohen, and the tapes on music by the marx fella, etc.......they were tied together at points, kept locked up in heavy cardboard boxes which were pounded on from the outside all night, sleep deprived, exposed to heavy-handed interrogation techniques, blaringly loud tapes and music, told that the usa had been invaded and taken over by the russians, and, that they would be broken from standing on the word..."
That's madness! Torture! Tied together? Locked up? Interrogated? What bloody ego trip was that?
Hands up all those who think VPW would have survived something like that! Without complaining!
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skyrider
Yep, "madness" to do that stuff in corps training......for sure.
BUT also......it was "madness" to slander (i.e. character assassinations) leaders who were running back-to-back classes. Where was the outpouring of joy and excitement for peoples' deliverance from the devil's kingdom? Where was the support and thankfulness shown to those who were serving and ministering on the streets of hardened cities? Where were the testimonials.....bringing these leaders into hq to teach the 2nd and 3rd corps to give the best training and expertise possible? Why would wierwille "take a dagger" to these men's work and energized ministries? How incredibly short-sighted, selfish and narcissistic one must be to have such tunnel-vision? So, it really wasn't about "moving the word over the world" ...... it WAS ABOUT consolidating the power, control and money at wierwille's fingertips.
How did that work out, mister wierwille? Sure, power-grabbing the movements of Perez, Doop, Heefner, etc. brought money into the coffers at hq..... and maybe, a groundswell of young folk were duped into going into the corps (1976-1986)......And???? And then what? Selling off 4 corps campuses years later.....at reduced prices. Pathetic, anemic signups for classes and corps.....for decades. Plus, a hollowed-out empty echo chambered auditorium at
headquarters.....er, DEADquarters....ppfffttt. Go ahead, eat your dollar bills with soup and crackers.Surely, wierwille would embrace and honor scripture over selfish agendas, wouldn't he? What about his legacy? Oh, that's right...... wierwille had no concept that an internet would arrive on the scene and expose all his secrets and "good name."
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Edited by skyridertypo
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skyrider
Perhaps, I was a recalcitrant recruit when I went in-residence corps in 1978.......I should not have gone corps. Within six weeks of this "training program"..... my inner conscience was skeptical of its methods. This certainly was deeply regimented compared to my college days..... not that I expected such freelance activity and bar hopping, per se. LOL. But geez, why were we rehashing thru the foundational pfal-stuff again? Dale Carnegie techniques to selling and motivate others? Retemories in your shirt pocket and be ready to recite a specific verse upon command.....in public? Generic health, fitness and well-being classes including menstrual cycles, ovulation and mucus method? Knowles breathing attendance in the wierwille library at 5:30am? Jet-style packing, really?
Each twig and/or branch coordinator will require you to keep forms up-to-date. Floss charts. Aerobic points. Monthly budget report ($20 was maximum allowed to be spent each month). Writing your sponsors faithfully. Roll call attendance for all meetings when we weren't assigned to twig-assemble.
Why all these FILLER classes and activities???
I guess that I thought going in-residence would be a step up from the advanced class, no? You know, all that emphasis on the revelation manifestations (word of knowledge, word of wisdom and discerning of spirits) AND the action manifestations (faith, miracles and healings). Maybe, I was just TOO IMPATIENT..... those teachings, and specifics, will be taught after we move thru the "walking to running" stages. Surely, there's going to be MORE than just this????
Nope.....there wasn't. Even when wierwille came to Emporia, I thought that we'd really see something special. Heck, "the man of God" was on campus for several days and his motor coach was parked behind Wierwille Library. He's well rested and well served at the lunch head table. Anything that he summoned was delivered to him promptly. He's been show double-honor with every protocol......so, tonight we are going to see ACTION, can't wait. And then, another tepid teaching. Ugh. The times when wierwille became most highly animated and angered were when confrontations were dished out to dissenting corps. Wierwille snuffed out questioning dissent in his corps program.......and the dissenter.
Good people, good leaders walk away......because THIS was not education, THIS was indoctrination.
THIS was not excellence in Christian education......THIS was vile indoctrination.
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chockfull
Sky it’s funny I was thinking about this and our training. We were trained product salesmen, no different than traveling around hucking vacuum cleaners or encyclopedias.
The parts of our training that helped instill any kind of discipline in me I am thankful for. Of course the overall arching idea of being groomed as a pawn for a selfish hedonists pleasures is the part that is the most difficult to acknowledge for many, some would prefer a seared conscience and false narrative. That part makes me sick.
I can actually look at most genuine acts I had during that period as a minister to be outside that framework and pattern rather than perpetuating it.
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