[It] is through this material brain that emissaries of God or of the Devil—dictators, policemen, politicians, priests, physicians and psychotherapists of various sorts— … try to work their will on man. William Sargant, 1957
“Brainwashing was “born” in Pavlov's dog labs in the early days of the Soviet Union, but it didn't appear out of thin air. While Pavlov brought in scientific experimentation to intensify persuasion, brainwashing's roots can be traced to traditional practices in torture and religious conversion.”
So begins Dimsdale's exposition of Dark Persuasion. His Table 1 (Common features of torture and coercive persuasion), on page 6 includes eight items. Having spent a year in residence with the 9th corpse, I witnessed and/or experienced several of these items. I can still detail first hand, terror, sleep deprivation, diaries and confessions, isolation from family and friends, secrecy and other such tactics.
This book as well as Peter A Olsson's on theMalignant Pied Pipers of Our Time summarize histories of more stark cult experiences than ours. However benign in comparison ours may seem on book/internet forum pages, when taken as told by individuals, ours are still the stuff of cults. And whether any one of us considers the long-lasting effects serious is a very personal and real consequence of having endured life in a cult.
I have also noted before (probably on GSC) that every human is subject to getting conned. Having been successfully recruited into TWI or other cults is one of many ways humans are vulnerable to dark persuasion.
About William Sargant:
“Sargant co-authored a textbook on physical treatment in psychiatry that ran to 5 editions. He wrote numerous articles in the medical and lay press, an autobiography, The Unquiet Mind, and a book titled Battle for the Mind in which he discusses the nature of the process by which our minds are subject to influence by others.”
In addition to its origins in torture, brainwashing can trace its roots to traditions in religious conversion. It may seem peculiar that a book on brainwashing discusses religious conversion, but conversions come in many sizes and flavors--sudden or gradual, grounded in belief or convenience, brought about by individual decisions or by acts of State. Conversions are heterogeneous, and some conversions are in fact accompanied by varying amounts of coercion. [...]
When conversions are made by personal choice, they are still shaped by social factors, and here we start to recognize some features shared with brainwashing.
Both brainwashing and religious conversion rely on strong group pressure. They target people who are exhausted and dejected from extensive self-criticism, doubt, fear, and guilt. When potential converts abandon their old ways of thinking, they feel relief, gratitude, and zeal. They sense a new beginning with a cleansed life. These aspects of conversion are the same whether one is converting to a common established belief or to an uncommon new one. Churches grow and morph; today's traditional or "heritage" church probably was revolutionary generations ago. Dimsdale, Page 7
Both brainwashing and religious conversion rely on strong group pressure. They target people who are exhausted and dejected from extensive self-criticism, doubt, fear, and guilt.
.......
Corps indoctrination could not have happened without..........ISOLATION.
Isolated from all outside support
Isolated from friends, family, community
Isolated from other reading material, news
Isolated from other entertainment, sports, involvement
Ongoing classes, meetings and groups.....even "after-glow" meetings
Mandatory attendance for all classes, work and meals
Group bedrooms in Owens Hall had up to 18 men per room
No privacy, no closet space to speak of
No way to lock your own bedroom door (or anything else)
Gee, seems more like detention......or prison
Surprise inspections to violate privacy....(checking drawers)
The corps "training" targeted the youth in multiple ways..........we were a CAPTIVE audience.
Rocky.....Handmaid's Tale clip ends showing 12-16 women sleeping side-by-side in a big bedroom. LOL [Just like corps training and sleeping in Owens Hall.....except we had bunk beds.]
Gawd....it seems unbelievable to me that after THREE DECADES beyond wierwille's death.......corps sh1t-coordinators are STILL preaching the praise-be-to-vic-doctrine-of-dependency. OMG........brain dead or evil conspirators. Wierwille taught Cult 101........group sessions, group classes, group meetings, group meals, group couselling, group weddings, etc. Then, at the end of the day, when all were sent away......he had one-on-one sexual predation with "invited" corps girls who were ambushed in his motor coach.
Rocky.....Handmaid's Tale clip ends showing 12-16 women sleeping side-by-side in a big bedroom. LOL [Just like corps training and sleeping in Owens Hall.....except we had bunk beds.]
Gawd....it seems unbelievable to me that after THREE DECADES beyond wierwille's death.......corps sh1t-coordinators are STILL preaching the praise-be-to-vic-doctrine-of-dependency. OMG........brain dead or evil conspirators. Wierwille taught Cult 101........group sessions, group classes, group meetings, group meals, group couselling, group weddings, etc. Then, at the end of the day, when all were sent away......he had one-on-one sexual predation with "invited" corps girls who were ambushed in his motor coach.
.
Aunt Lydia drew a clear distinction, women outside of the "household" were sluts. You girls are special.
Does that ring any bells? Vic's subculture emphasized that we were "called out," we were special. People outside of the "household" wouldn't be protected by God. Besides cementing the specialness of the way corpse (and others not as "high" in his hierarchy... yet), that was also the basis for blaming anyone who had anything bad happen to them. Psychological and spiritual abuse.
speaking of targeting systems, don't forget every way corps applicant had to submit a from-birth-to-the-way-corps-paper
Thank God, my year escaped that indignity. But I (now) know I'd disclosed too much previously, done in complete trust, and which I now know could be, and possibly was, used to manipulate me.
This site has helped me tremendously to unravel most of the wrong teaching and (im)practical application of it that I received in TWI. I've got a ways to go yet but am very thankful for the progress I've made so far.
Now that I am somewhat clear in my thinking about who and what TWI is I've tried to go back and figure out how I fell for all of this. What was I thinking? Or, better yet, why was I not thinking?
In the "College Degrees and The Way" thread Twinky said "They stole my critical thinking ability". This is what I think happened to me. But rather than say someone stole it, I realize that I relinquished it, I set it down. Like getting someone to lay their weapon down they disarmed me. In retrospect (and for future application) I ask, why did I let them?
I suppose there were some things that softened me up first. I was introduced to TWI by a longtime friend, someone who was not at all the religious type. Their life seemed changed for the better. (by the way: they no longer "stand" in TWI) Then all the people that I met that were associated with TWI seemed so loving, caring. And they all attributed their loving actions to TWI and specifically PFAL. So I took it.
And I heard Wierwille say how God had told him that He'd teach him the word like it hadn't been known since the first century if he'd teach it to others. I had never heard anyone make such a claim but I considered it, thought it might be possible. And in PFAL I heard things taught differently than I had been taught in my christian upbringing and I considered it, it made some sense.
But what I think really got me to drop my critical thinking was the section on "no private interpretation" or one's own letting loose. The example given of Maggie standing up and saying "well I think it means..." followed by Johnny saying "well I think it means...." reminded me of bible discussions that I had heard growing up, people's opinions. I didn't want more opinions. The bible was to interpret itself. Some easy sections were cited where the text clearly said what the answer was (the seven churches are..., the seven candle sticks are....). Made sense to me. Why guess?
This was quickly followed up with the record of Eve's demise for considering an alternative to what God said, adding a word, changing a word, deleting a word, etc. And it all starts with considering "Did God really say?". Look how easy it was for her to get into trouble. I wasn't going to be like her was I?
So to keep myself out of this damnation I wouldn't allow myself to consider that what I was being taught was wrong. I dropped my critical thinking and believed what I was being taught. I was being had.
Well, once I realized after all too many years that something was wrong I dared to critically look at what I had been taught, to (really) "make it my own". And it began to unravel, which was disconcerting at first but ultimately liberating. One of the first doctrines to fall was that of "no private interpretation". After looking at it from a fresh perspective I realized that for me that section had nothing to do with how I interpret the bible, but rather how we got it. Just look at the context. But I'm not here to convince anyone of what something means or doesn't mean...I suppose that would belong in the doctrinal forum.
And how often did I hear Wierwille and others say things like "it's just got to be this" or "in the original it says this" and it was all their own private interpretation, guesswork (and not good guesswork at that).
As far as the record of Eve is concerned: that's between God and her. But I do know that the basis of belief HAS to start with "Did God really say?". There's nothing wrong with considering what God says (said). It will hold up under scrutiny. As for adding, changing, deleting words: I'd say TWI is more guilty of this than most bible believing groups.
So I'm back to square one on a number of beliefs. That's good in many ways. From TWI I've had a good lesson on "what it is not". That's a good place to start. I know what Christianity is not, it is not TWI.
Sky my brother your story in all of its gory detail including even the corps kidnapping have helped me in my recovery more than words can express. Thank you so much.
Charlene your book was pivotal in my understanding and recovery.
I think my personal story comes out in stages like my recovery. I have zero motivation for a brain dump. Sorry I don’t think I can face it end to end even after more than a decade. That’s just me. I do what I can.
Look the Way has been about isolating and controlling young minds for 4 generations. Once people hit 35 and start having kids they become a liability to the Ways method of thinking. Harder to isolate and control. Harder to force to move for their political reasons. Harder to tell where to work, how to not have a mortgage.
How do I view you all at GS? You are part of my church. But I might be reading Soren Kirkegards philosophical writings as opposed to spewed vomit from a cult leader that consists of 90% narcissistic personality disorder comments that add zero value and make no sense.
I am cool with that. And my other support systems, both Christian and secular. They are also kind of my church.
Peace spotters. Sky thanks for enduring the insanity and for the learning you gained from it to help us.
Sky my brother your story in all of its gory detail including even the corps kidnapping have helped me in my recovery more than words can express. Thank you so much.
Charlene your book was pivotal in my understanding and recovery.
I think my personal story comes out in stages like my recovery. I have zero motivation for a brain dump. Sorry I don’t think I can face it end to end even after more than a decade. That’s just me. I do what I can.
Look the Way has been about isolating and controlling young minds for 4 generations. Once people hit 35 and start having kids they become a liability to the Ways method of thinking. Harder to isolate and control. Harder to force to move for their political reasons. Harder to tell where to work, how to not have a mortgage.
How do I view you all at GS? You are part of my church. But I might be reading Soren Kirkegards philosophical writings as opposed to spewed vomit from a cult leader that consists of 90% narcissistic personality disorder comments that add zero value and make no sense.
I am cool with that. And my other support systems, both Christian and secular. They are also kind of my church.
Peace spotters. Sky thanks for enduring the insanity and for the learning you gained from it to help us.
Thanks chockfull.
As we embark on another new year......once again, so thankful the doors of GSC are still open.
Is that really you writing your story for us in December 2021? I've been gone from Grease Spot for about twelve years or so, formally known as "Eagle". I just post my own name now. How's the newspaper doing? Very, very sorry to hear of your divorce. Honestly, I hope all is well with you and your family.
The original post for the thread was skyrider's, and that's someone else. Raf did post something around Dec 14. The divorce he mentioned there was sometime over 20 years ago. I'm sure he appreciates the pathos, but has seriously moved on with his life since then.
Is that really you writing your story for us in December 2021? I've been gone from Grease Spot for about twelve years or so, formally known as "Eagle". I just post my own name now. How's the newspaper doing? Very, very sorry to hear of your divorce. Honestly, I hope all is well with you and your family.
Hi Stephen. I'm a moderator on this site now (Modcat5) so sometimes a lot of time passes before I sign on as Raf. Sorry about that.
So, here's the quick bio:
Nov. 1988: I graduate PFAL.
Sometime in 1989: Graduated Intermediate.
Spring/Summer 1989: Left the Way along with most of NY State.
Summer 1991: Met the first Mrs. Me
Fall 1992: Married the first Mrs. Me.
1992-1996: Ran a fellowship in the Bronx.
1993-1999: Worked at a major metropolitan newspaper in NYC famous for having a globe in its lobby, as seen in the 1978 movie Superman.
1997: Split from the first Mrs. Me.
1999: Moved to Florida for another newspaper job.
2000: Met the second Mrs. Me.
2006: Started dating the second Mrs. Me.
2007: Married the second Mrs. Me.
2009: First son born.
2011: Second son born.
2012: After years of struggling with various questions of faith, I realize my worldview makes more sense without a god than with one.
2019: Won a (shared) Pulitzer for coverage of the aftermath of a local tragedy in South Florida.
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Rocky
Dark Persuasion
[It] is through this material brain that emissaries of God or of the Devil—dictators, policemen, politicians, priests, physicians and psychotherapists of various sorts— … try to work their will on man. William Sargant, 1957
“Brainwashing was “born” in Pavlov's dog labs in the early days of the Soviet Union, but it didn't appear out of thin air. While Pavlov brought in scientific experimentation to intensify persuasion, brainwashing's roots can be traced to traditional practices in torture and religious conversion.”
So begins Dimsdale's exposition of Dark Persuasion. His Table 1 (Common features of torture and coercive persuasion), on page 6 includes eight items. Having spent a year in residence with the 9th corpse, I witnessed and/or experienced several of these items. I can still detail first hand, terror, sleep deprivation, diaries and confessions, isolation from family and friends, secrecy and other such tactics.
This book as well as Peter A Olsson's on the Malignant Pied Pipers of Our Time summarize histories of more stark cult experiences than ours. However benign in comparison ours may seem on book/internet forum pages, when taken as told by individuals, ours are still the stuff of cults. And whether any one of us considers the long-lasting effects serious is a very personal and real consequence of having endured life in a cult.
I have also noted before (probably on GSC) that every human is subject to getting conned. Having been successfully recruited into TWI or other cults is one of many ways humans are vulnerable to dark persuasion.
About William Sargant:
“Sargant co-authored a textbook on physical treatment in psychiatry that ran to 5 editions. He wrote numerous articles in the medical and lay press, an autobiography, The Unquiet Mind, and a book titled Battle for the Mind in which he discusses the nature of the process by which our minds are subject to influence by others.”
Notes:
Dark Persuasion: A History of Brainwashing from Pavlov to Social Media - Kindle edition by Dimsdale, Joel E.. Health, Fitness & Dieting Kindle eBooks @ Amazon.com.
https://archive.org/details/BattleForTheMind-Sargant
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Sargant
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Rocky
In addition to its origins in torture, brainwashing can trace its roots to traditions in religious conversion. It may seem peculiar that a book on brainwashing discusses religious conversion, but conversions come in many sizes and flavors--sudden or gradual, grounded in belief or convenience, brought about by individual decisions or by acts of State. Conversions are heterogeneous, and some conversions are in fact accompanied by varying amounts of coercion. [...]
When conversions are made by personal choice, they are still shaped by social factors, and here we start to recognize some features shared with brainwashing.
-- Dark Persuasion, Dimsdale, Page 6.
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Rocky
Both brainwashing and religious conversion rely on strong group pressure. They target people who are exhausted and dejected from extensive self-criticism, doubt, fear, and guilt. When potential converts abandon their old ways of thinking, they feel relief, gratitude, and zeal. They sense a new beginning with a cleansed life. These aspects of conversion are the same whether one is converting to a common established belief or to an uncommon new one. Churches grow and morph; today's traditional or "heritage" church probably was revolutionary generations ago. Dimsdale, Page 7
Note: American Christianity: the Continuing Revolution
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skyrider
Corps indoctrination could not have happened without..........ISOLATION.
The corps "training" targeted the youth in multiple ways..........we were a CAPTIVE audience.
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Bolshevik
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waysider
Sounds like a description of FellowLaborers.
(Only 2 per room, on bunkbeds, though. Everything else...pretty much the same.)
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Rocky
My most vivid memory is the pervasive odor of, let's say, the aftermath of digestion. And the need to light candles to dissipate said odor.
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Rocky
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Rocky
Aunt Lydia was easily one of the most dreadful characters in The Handmaid's Tale. Thankfully, it was only pretending (and doing so exquisitely well).
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skyrider
Rocky.....Handmaid's Tale clip ends showing 12-16 women sleeping side-by-side in a big bedroom. LOL [Just like corps training and sleeping in Owens Hall.....except we had bunk beds.]
Gawd....it seems unbelievable to me that after THREE DECADES beyond wierwille's death.......corps sh1t-coordinators are STILL preaching the praise-be-to-vic-doctrine-of-dependency. OMG........brain dead or evil conspirators. Wierwille taught Cult 101........group sessions, group classes, group meetings, group meals, group couselling, group weddings, etc. Then, at the end of the day, when all were sent away......he had one-on-one sexual predation with "invited" corps girls who were ambushed in his motor coach.
.
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Bolshevik
"This will become ordinary"
You become the people you spend the most time with. How norms are normalized.
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Rocky
Aunt Lydia drew a clear distinction, women outside of the "household" were sluts. You girls are special.
Does that ring any bells? Vic's subculture emphasized that we were "called out," we were special. People outside of the "household" wouldn't be protected by God. Besides cementing the specialness of the way corpse (and others not as "high" in his hierarchy... yet), that was also the basis for blaming anyone who had anything bad happen to them. Psychological and spiritual abuse.
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Bolshevik
The cattle prod is important too. Let's not forget that. That was a jolt of pleasure in the delivery.
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T-Bone
"The corps "training" targeted the youth in multiple ways..........we were a CAPTIVE audience."
speaking of targeting systems, don't forget every way corps applicant had to submit a from-birth-to-the-way-corps-paper
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Twinky
Thank God, my year escaped that indignity. But I (now) know I'd disclosed too much previously, done in complete trust, and which I now know could be, and possibly was, used to manipulate me.
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skyrider
Here is another insightful snippet of one's story .... How TWI disarmed me
.
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Rocky
PatAnswer's answer was/is brilliant!
Btw, for those who read fiction (which is a great way to learn about life),
This short story by Dean Koontz has key parallels to our experience in twi and, I'm confident, in plenty of other cults.
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chockfull
Sky my brother your story in all of its gory detail including even the corps kidnapping have helped me in my recovery more than words can express. Thank you so much.
Charlene your book was pivotal in my understanding and recovery.
I think my personal story comes out in stages like my recovery. I have zero motivation for a brain dump. Sorry I don’t think I can face it end to end even after more than a decade. That’s just me. I do what I can.
Look the Way has been about isolating and controlling young minds for 4 generations. Once people hit 35 and start having kids they become a liability to the Ways method of thinking. Harder to isolate and control. Harder to force to move for their political reasons. Harder to tell where to work, how to not have a mortgage.
How do I view you all at GS? You are part of my church. But I might be reading Soren Kirkegards philosophical writings as opposed to spewed vomit from a cult leader that consists of 90% narcissistic personality disorder comments that add zero value and make no sense.
I am cool with that. And my other support systems, both Christian and secular. They are also kind of my church.
Peace spotters. Sky thanks for enduring the insanity and for the learning you gained from it to help us.
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skyrider
Thanks chockfull.
As we embark on another new year......once again, so thankful the doors of GSC are still open.
.
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Stephen J. Spencer
Raf,
Is that really you writing your story for us in December 2021? I've been gone from Grease Spot for about twelve years or so, formally known as "Eagle". I just post my own name now. How's the newspaper doing? Very, very sorry to hear of your divorce. Honestly, I hope all is well with you and your family.
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WordWolf
The original post for the thread was skyrider's, and that's someone else. Raf did post something around Dec 14. The divorce he mentioned there was sometime over 20 years ago. I'm sure he appreciates the pathos, but has seriously moved on with his life since then.
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Raf
Hi Stephen. I'm a moderator on this site now (Modcat5) so sometimes a lot of time passes before I sign on as Raf. Sorry about that.
So, here's the quick bio:
Nov. 1988: I graduate PFAL.
Sometime in 1989: Graduated Intermediate.
Spring/Summer 1989: Left the Way along with most of NY State.
Summer 1991: Met the first Mrs. Me
Fall 1992: Married the first Mrs. Me.
1992-1996: Ran a fellowship in the Bronx.
1993-1999: Worked at a major metropolitan newspaper in NYC famous for having a globe in its lobby, as seen in the 1978 movie Superman.
1997: Split from the first Mrs. Me.
1999: Moved to Florida for another newspaper job.
2000: Met the second Mrs. Me.
2006: Started dating the second Mrs. Me.
2007: Married the second Mrs. Me.
2009: First son born.
2011: Second son born.
2012: After years of struggling with various questions of faith, I realize my worldview makes more sense without a god than with one.
2019: Won a (shared) Pulitzer for coverage of the aftermath of a local tragedy in South Florida.
2021: Mrs. Me and I begin fostering kids.
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