In short, the more cautious observer would wonder how sincere they were about actually trying to fix twi, when they'd already started setting up the new group BEFORE approaching the board. I mean, I would have already made plans to leave, but I would NOT have been sincerely trying to fix twi since it was obviously broken fundamentally.
Okay, I'm certainly not a fan of the R and R clan, but... while I too would absolutely wonder, I don't believe there's enough there to CONCLUDE--simply by virtue of the fact that a website and name were established ahead of time--that they were not sincere.
First, they absolutely KNEW the likelihood was through the roof that they would be labeled "mark and avoid," and they knew of NT scripture counseling them to go to TWI with their grievances first.
Prudence required them to be prepared for the nearly inevitable response. I don't see this particular action as having any bearing on their sincerity or lack thereof.
Either they expected this to result in them being kicked out, or they did not. If they did expect this, I challenge the sincerity of them actually trying to fix twi when they wrote their letter. If they expected it to result in them being kicked out, that's expecting this to be a controversial act that resulted in a permanent split between them and twi, all while saying they were hoping to fix it.
See, I would have expected that, also- but I would NOT have gone around saying "let's fix it" while expecting that the opening gambit would result in a split. That would be DISHONEST, and would not proceed from me actually being SINCERE. I know vpw made sincerity a dirty word because he misused it (mostly because he didn't UNDERSTAND the word), but it demonstrates an attitude of heart, and what someone's thinking at the time.
So, if they were sincere, and really intended to try to fix twi, and didn't think that even offering to do so would result in them being canned, first of all, I question their brains. They'd participated in running lots of people out of town on a rail, and knew what triggered it. But, let's say they really were sincere. In that case, it would make no sense to have the entirely different group set up and ready to run when they sent their letter. They had already come up with the new name for their church, and had the website name already registered. I can't tell from here, but I'm confident they had the incorporation paperwork all filled out and ready to file (if they hadn't already filed it, I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt on that one.)
All of that was prudent- if they expected a split to result immediately. If they did, they went into the letter with that expectation- so saying that you were there specifically to fix things strikes me as insincere and dishonest. Their words were inconsistent with their plans and expectations. That's smart politics, and that's smart if you're looking to take over the big chair, set up your own church, and start collecting the tithes yourself.
While you may be right on the mark in your assessment, I'm not sure the qualifiers are necessary. Accurate truth isn't nearly as relevant as the fact that belongingis a fundamental human need. I'm not suggesting you are inherently wrong, as factors relating to position in a group to which they belong are certainly relevant to varying degrees, but the bottom line regardless is belonging to a tribe.
Great point and I appreciate the feedback! I was a little wordy and could have been more concise. I did mean to say it that way to emphasize the need for adoration by some way corps. So while way corps are safe and free to leave at anytime, many of them (from my own personal relationships and from being way corps) will not leave because they will "lose their precious" - and that is a position of authority with an audience. So for a group of them to all leave at once and start a new splinter; they safeguarded their positions.
The people who formed "Revival and Restoration" sent a letter to twi's board, and claimed they were interested in healing up and fixing twi from within. Before they sent the letter, they had already registered the "Revival and Restoration" website. In short, the more cautious observer would wonder how sincere they were about actually trying to fix twi, when they'd already started setting up the new group BEFORE approaching the board. I mean, I would have already made plans to leave, but I would NOT have been sincerely trying to fix twi since it was obviously broken fundamentally. So, I would not have come across as sounding like I was trying to fix them.
Reminds me of an old joke. (The names can vary, but the joke is the same.)
Vladimir Putin woke up one morning after a late party. He found his residence completely devoid of people. He looked out the window, and didn't see people standing, walking, or driving. His telephone rang. It was an advisor of his. "Don't you remember? You got drunk and said that anyone who didn't like living in Russia should just get out. So, they did." "Are you saying that it's only you and me in the entire country?" "No, just you-I'm calling from Poland."
15 hours ago, WordWolf said:
Either they expected this to result in them being kicked out, or they did not. If they did expect this, I challenge the sincerity of them actually trying to fix twi when they wrote their letter. If they expected it to result in them being kicked out, that's expecting this to be a controversial act that resulted in a permanent split between them and twi, all while saying they were hoping to fix it.
See, I would have expected that, also- but I would NOT have gone around saying "let's fix it" while expecting that the opening gambit would result in a split. That would be DISHONEST, and would not proceed from me actually being SINCERE. I know vpw made sincerity a dirty word because he misused it (mostly because he didn't UNDERSTAND the word), but it demonstrates an attitude of heart, and what someone's thinking at the time.
So, if they were sincere, and really intended to try to fix twi, and didn't think that even offering to do so would result in them being canned, first of all, I question their brains. They'd participated in running lots of people out of town on a rail, and knew what triggered it. But, let's say they really were sincere. In that case, it would make no sense to have the entirely different group set up and ready to run when they sent their letter. They had already come up with the new name for their church, and had the website name already registered. I can't tell from here, but I'm confident they had the incorporation paperwork all filled out and ready to file (if they hadn't already filed it, I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt on that one.)
All of that was prudent- if they expected a split to result immediately. If they did, they went into the letter with that expectation- so saying that you were there specifically to fix things strikes me as insincere and dishonest. Their words were inconsistent with their plans and expectations. That's smart politics, and that's smart if you're looking to take over the big chair, set up your own church, and start collecting the tithes yourself.
These are excellent points and I really appreciate the addition to my Clifnotes earlier.
I feel as you do WW, they knew they were going to get marked and avoided (it's a given) and already had plans in MOTION to start a new splinter. So they staged a dog and pony show to somehow give legitimacy to their efforts and now they can say the confronted Rosalie, etc. I believe that it was never about R/R the way international. It was about doing things they way they wanted but keeping their positions from money donating followers. May sound harsh, but I know quite a few of their leaders personally and worked with them when I was cabinet. The shoe may not fit everyone, but it fits who it fits.
Well, the dissent had been building for years. Most of the way corps who left would not have had the guts to bail on their own. I did that in 2008 and was happy with obscurity! Most way corps still crave a lectern and some people to admire them and that they can boss around. The exodus actually started with an advanced class grad who mailed an anon. letter to Rosie the RIveter enumerating many typical grievances. Same ole same ole: STS sucks, way mag sucks, everyone is micromanaged, etc. However, Rosie's goofy a$$ thought the letter came from one of her very loyal cabinet men that I won't name. She put him through holy heck for no reason at all. Raked this man over the coals really bad. Other letters followed from a group of way corps and I guess the damn of dissent broke from there. So as time went Rosie, Rupp, and the gang started calling in corps who had signed the subsequent letter(s) of dissent, of course seperated married couples from one another, and interrogated them. They marked and avoided a bunch of corps during this time, which again, was extremely stupid for them since they don't have that many corps to go around any more. A lot of your average followers of course followed their favorite way corps over to revival and restoration. I went to a couple fellowships over in Indy at the urging of a former friend. They were typical twig fellowship formats from the days of old with more room for people to express themselves and such, but same doctrinal package that wierwille pieced together. Same errors, etc. I never went back and that was at least four years ago.
As to what took them so long? Most didn't have the guts to push the envelope on their own but when others started doing it the whole gang jumped in when they felt safe that they could remain relevant to somebody. That's my opinion, but Im pretty sure it's fact based on a broad scale.
Thanks for the back-story. Reminds me of Lynne, Dubofsky etc. and the 26 (?) page letter except like 20 years or so later. They also tried to fix it from within and were ousted.
Yes all of the R and R detail I can confirm. I view it more of a Martin Luther points nailed to a church door with the letter to the BOD. They realized futility of change from within.
Now it’s another Way splinter of which there are many. As Paul described them they make a shipwreck out of the family faith. Don’t sit down on a bench and get one in your behind lol
The Putin joke by WW reminds me of how all penny ante dictators act. Shoot the messenger. So people are blowing sunshine at him. He has unworthy intel and paranoia about his inner circle. That’s the legacy of cheap dictators - inherit the wind.
The Putin joke by WW reminds me of how all penny ante dictators act. Shoot the messenger. So people are blowing sunshine at him. He has unworthy intel and paranoia about his inner circle. That’s the legacy of cheap dictators - inherit the wind.
Recommended Posts
Rocky
Okay, I'm certainly not a fan of the R and R clan, but... while I too would absolutely wonder, I don't believe there's enough there to CONCLUDE--simply by virtue of the fact that a website and name were established ahead of time--that they were not sincere.
Edited by RockyFirst, they absolutely KNEW the likelihood was through the roof that they would be labeled "mark and avoid," and they knew of NT scripture counseling them to go to TWI with their grievances first.
Prudence required them to be prepared for the nearly inevitable response. I don't see this particular action as having any bearing on their sincerity or lack thereof.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Either they expected this to result in them being kicked out, or they did not. If they did expect this, I challenge the sincerity of them actually trying to fix twi when they wrote their letter. If they expected it to result in them being kicked out, that's expecting this to be a controversial act that resulted in a permanent split between them and twi, all while saying they were hoping to fix it.
See, I would have expected that, also- but I would NOT have gone around saying "let's fix it" while expecting that the opening gambit would result in a split. That would be DISHONEST, and would not proceed from me actually being SINCERE. I know vpw made sincerity a dirty word because he misused it (mostly because he didn't UNDERSTAND the word), but it demonstrates an attitude of heart, and what someone's thinking at the time.
So, if they were sincere, and really intended to try to fix twi, and didn't think that even offering to do so would result in them being canned, first of all, I question their brains. They'd participated in running lots of people out of town on a rail, and knew what triggered it. But, let's say they really were sincere. In that case, it would make no sense to have the entirely different group set up and ready to run when they sent their letter. They had already come up with the new name for their church, and had the website name already registered. I can't tell from here, but I'm confident they had the incorporation paperwork all filled out and ready to file (if they hadn't already filed it, I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt on that one.)
All of that was prudent- if they expected a split to result immediately. If they did, they went into the letter with that expectation- so saying that you were there specifically to fix things strikes me as insincere and dishonest. Their words were inconsistent with their plans and expectations. That's smart politics, and that's smart if you're looking to take over the big chair, set up your own church, and start collecting the tithes yourself.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
Great point and I appreciate the feedback! I was a little wordy and could have been more concise. I did mean to say it that way to emphasize the need for adoration by some way corps. So while way corps are safe and free to leave at anytime, many of them (from my own personal relationships and from being way corps) will not leave because they will "lose their precious" - and that is a position of authority with an audience. So for a group of them to all leave at once and start a new splinter; they safeguarded their positions.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
These are excellent points and I really appreciate the addition to my Clifnotes earlier.
I feel as you do WW, they knew they were going to get marked and avoided (it's a given) and already had plans in MOTION to start a new splinter. So they staged a dog and pony show to somehow give legitimacy to their efforts and now they can say the confronted Rosalie, etc. I believe that it was never about R/R the way international. It was about doing things they way they wanted but keeping their positions from money donating followers. May sound harsh, but I know quite a few of their leaders personally and worked with them when I was cabinet. The shoe may not fit everyone, but it fits who it fits.
Edited by OldSkoolLink to comment
Share on other sites
outandabout
Thanks for the back-story. Reminds me of Lynne, Dubofsky etc. and the 26 (?) page letter except like 20 years or so later. They also tried to fix it from within and were ousted.
Edited by outandaboutLink to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
Yes all of the R and R detail I can confirm. I view it more of a Martin Luther points nailed to a church door with the letter to the BOD. They realized futility of change from within.
Now it’s another Way splinter of which there are many. As Paul described them they make a shipwreck out of the family faith. Don’t sit down on a bench and get one in your behind lol
The Putin joke by WW reminds me of how all penny ante dictators act. Shoot the messenger. So people are blowing sunshine at him. He has unworthy intel and paranoia about his inner circle. That’s the legacy of cheap dictators - inherit the wind.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
https://www.netflix.com/watch/81083002 The playbook on how to become a tyrant.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
Peter Dinklage would know!
Step 1: Obtain dragons.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.