Just to bring this back on track, here's the starter post:
On 12/3/2021 at 10:50 PM, johnj said:
It seems TWI is trying to revive the “gory glory years.” It plans to revive “the Rock” as “Young Adult Rock” Aug 12-14, 2022. They call it a “Christian music festival” for Foundational class grads ages 18-35. A few days after it, TWI plans to send out Way “Ambassadors.” The “Ambassadors of The Way Outreach Program” will replace both the original WOW and the Way Disciples outreach program, which sends an anemic 4 teams (approx.) per term/ year. They will serve Aug 21 to June 4, 2023.That’s a 9.5 month term vs. the 6 month disciple and 12 month WOW terms. They hope to have Ambassadors in 12 countries in which there are active Way Corps. How many people will they actually get? What do they mean by "Christian music"?
Yet another thread that has become all about Mike.
For those who don't know, Mike is on the autistic spectrum. Nowadays, sometimes called "neuro-divergent." (I think there may be some other posters here who are also neuro-divergent.) That means Mike doesn't think like "neuro-typicals" and no amount of presenting alternative facts will dislodge his current views. What you say will only entrench his own views even more. No amount of logic or browbeating will cause him to backtrack on his beliefs.
So stop wasting your time trying!
Being autistic isn't a "bad" thing, or an insult. It's how people were formed in the womb. High-end autistics are said to have Asperger's syndrome, and there are many famous "Aspies." These include Elon Musk, and Bill Gates, for two. Others excel as musicians, architects, artists, etc, with great focus, and an attention to detail that can lead to ground-breaking advances. Where they excel in ability and focus is, unfortunately for neurotypicals, also where they lack in interpersonal skills and empathy.
Now THAT makes sense. The light comes on regarding our good friend Mike.
I'm not PMing you, but I will talk to you here. I suspect you have forgotten how to talk to another human. It's time to remember or start anew because that is where God is.
And, I can sympathize with two thirds of your post.
....
Large institutions are like rmarble cake, and as TWI grew it had plenty of dark spots. I was pretty successful (like my dad) in avoiding them, but my luck started running out in the mid-80s.
I would suggest that people who suffered from the wrong slices of the marble cake take a second, fresh look at the many pure PFAL things put into written form. A fresh look would mean dissociating oneself from the social darkness they experienced in the past.Understandably, this is not so easy for some people.
I NEVER GET POSITIVE INSPIRATION BY LOOKING AT MY TROUBLED PAST, or by looking at all those who offended me, or by looking at all those whom I offended.
I do get positive inspiration from looking solely at the teaching we got in PFAL (not the people) and how it still opens up God’s Word to us better than any of the splinter groups or the Big Stump.
Mike I'll be honest there is very little self awareness or reflection in all of this. No cult sexual manipulation, plagiarism, and shunning are not marble cake that someone bit into the wrong part of.
It's too bad you can't relate to the parts of my post that could be of help. In fact much of your response sounds like I am speaking to a pseudo account of someone pretending to be a character. Which would be consistent with you just not quite getting it online here.
It's ok. If you are a fake way leader, you can fool me. It's fine. If you are just kind of a guy bumbling along like you pretend to be I wish you the best.
Either way rote repetition reading of old way materials won't save you any more than the rosaries we left in the catholic church. And I got rid of my blue book 10 years ago because who needs that to quote them anyway. Any good way follower could teach most of the blue book from memory, right mike?
so what should we do mike? Call headquarters like you and be put on a list to be evaluated whether they will let us back in or not?
Oooh, did this just become a Mike thread? Sign me up!
Just kidding. To each his own.
Yes it was usurped. Possibly the intent. To direct attention away from johnj and the 3 generation accurate analysis of the way and to act dumb and encourage people to read old materials and go back to the way.
So to obviate, if Mike is a fake account of a way leader, then he would already have a manipulated position in the way and the story about calling hq and not being let in would be a lie.
My takeaway from all this is where you see the most twisting of the topics on threads, that is probably where the Way is feeling the heat of the truth the most. And fake white knights are motivated to ride in.
Yes the Way is looping a pattern from summer schools decades ago. Be the pied piper to the youth, lead them away with your pipes. Don't let any of those possessed old 35 year old adults with mature minds and support systems in.
Then lie some more about the past until nobody cares and ride those positions into the sunset.
I don't think it's an example of that- I think it's en example of something else.
I don't think twi is alone in trying to recapture "the glory years", especially as they're remembered but not as they actually were.
Yes !
Recently I was rereading Kristen Skedgell’s memoir Losing the Way: A Memoir of Spiritual Longing, Manipulation, Abuse,and Escape it got me thinking about this thread – TWI trying to revive the glory days – and comments from someone who still talks it up on how great wierwille and the PFAL class were/are. I try to take the person at face value and guess they’ve mastered how to ignore / hide disappointment. Going on what he said elsewhere I know he was never in the way corps. If he is being genuine in his posts - perhaps some folks are just happy thinking wierwille and PFAL are the greatest thing since rightly divided bread. I mean do they still really believe God talked to wierwille and taught him “The Word” so he could teach it to others. That’s the wierwille we all started out knowing about. But for those of us who went into the way corps – we got to see another side of him – the real side of him…this is like a tale of two wierwilles…
In her memoir Kristen relates an incident that happened at the way corps training campus in Rome City. It was during her block assignment in housekeeping. One of her responsibilities included the Coachman Suite – she would be attentive to caring for wierwille’s needs whenever he would visit the campus. Being excited about “the man of God” coming to visit, Kristen wrote a welcome letter and place it on his pillow saying she would “do anything to make his time more blessed here”.
The following night, after the evening teaching wierwille called Kristen to his suite. He has a glass of Drambuie in one hand and a cigarette in the other – he sits very relaxed – he had taken off his suit coat and tie, the top button of his white shirt was undone, and his shoes were kicked off. He asks her to sit on the bed and they exchange some polite small talk. He then asks her if she really meant what she said in the little welcome note. “Of course” she says.
Then wierwille says “Well, there is one thing you can do for me. I’d like you to take off your clothes. I’d like to show you how to really make love to a man. You know what I’m talking about. You’re of age. Don’t you want me to show you how to have intercourse? How to make love to a man of God!”
In the book Kristen says “This is tantamount to a father soliciting sex from his daughter. The betrayal is unthinkable.” Trying to delay or avert wierwille’s advances, Kristen tried asking him how such an act is consistent with The Word. He explains that all things are pure to the pure…it’s a matter of keeping our minds renewed and centered on God…a man of God needs many women to satisfy his overwhelming needs.
There is nothing titillating when Kristen describes wierwille sexually molesting her. It’s like reading a police report of a daughter being raped by her own father. It is horrifying to read and I have no words to express my uncomfortable feelings over it…a part of me aches in sympathy for Kristen and then there’s utter revulsion over wierwille’s betrayal…afterwards he says to her “It’s the lockbox, honey. You have to keep this in the lockbox of your soul. Many of God’s people wouldn’t understand what we’ve just done.”
Kristen’s story is not unique…how many hundreds – if not thousands of women suffered from this sexual predator.
To show my appreciation for someone’s nostalgia posts of wierwille / PFAL I like to use them as a springboard for unveiling stuff about the real wierwille – unabashed plagiarist, megalomaniac, malignant narcissist, mean-spirited, hypocritical, delusional, money-grubbing, pontificating phony, sexual predator.
Disappointment means you’ve exercised enough critical thinking to realize a product, service or person did not live up to what was expected. But I think betrayal is worse. Betrayal means you’ve invested so much of yourself into the relationship – you totally trusted the other person – someone you really admired - had great respect for their accomplishments and their status in the ministry – someone you confided in – someone you looked to for providing biblical counsel and being an example of how to live the Christian lifestyle - – and you never expected to be cheated by them…so callously exploited. Betrayal is the sense of being deeply hurt by the intentional actions of a person you really trusted…yup let’s get back to those glory - I mean gory days !
For all you TWI-glory-days-revivalists-suckers-gluttons-for-punishment - beware !
wierwille may be dead but he is not gone. His ghost still haunts the whited sepulcher known as The Way International…late at night you can hear him shuffling about with Drambuie in one hand and a cigarette in the other, cackling as he spouts one-liners from PFAL “…technically all the women in the kingdom belong to the king…millions now smoking…the law of believing works for saint and sinner alike…ask the pendant – yes, no, yes, no…”
Edited by T-Bone typos and formatting...are the dead alive now? maybe the ghost of wierwille knows.
I am revolted by Kirsten's description, T-Bone. Sickening. Just. Sickening.
When I first moved to this city, I had a now-deceased friend who was a Wayfer. He was a much older man, showed great kindness, and was very helpful to me in my confused post-Way state. (Just talking friendship, brotherly love; nothing sexual.) I even stayed with him briefly after a few months, before I completed the purchase of my own house. But he was soooo set in his PFAL belief, and that VPW was such a great MoG. He was very hard to talk to about some things, didn't believe a word I said about the corruption within the "ministry," and berated me for "speaking evil." So did other Wayfers round about in this area. Conversation with friend became more about what we avoided, than what we talked about.
If you only saw RoA, if everybody there was nicey-nice to you (especially if you were an International), if you didn't see behind the curtain - you always had this idea of how wonderful TWI and all its people were. You never saw inside the whited sepulchre. You never saw or smelled the decay within.
In the OT, people were "unclean" for a specified period if they'd touched a human dead body. There was good reason for that. And there's very good reason to be "unclean," if people have touched the dead body of TWI. Especially if they keep "touching" it by rehashing its glory days in their memories.
If you only saw RoA, if everybody there was nicey-nice to you (especially if you were an International), if you didn't see behind the curtain - you always had this idea of how wonderful TWI and all its people were. You never saw inside the whited sepulchre. You never saw or smelled the decay within.
Exactly !
“behind the curtain” is quite a mind picture and goes along well with the idea of actors on a stage. The word hypocrite comes from the Greek word hypokrites and refers to an actor or a stage player. I’ve read one definition that said the word literally translates as “an interpreter from underneath” which reflects that ancient Greek actors wore masks and the actor spoke from underneath that mask. That should put a little more oomph into the next time you read Matthew 23
But I don’t think Jesus was condemning the role of religious leaders - he was condemning the people in those positions who assumed the role of a religious leader as an actor’s part in a play - putting on a show - and when the show was over they would go back to their deplorable lifestyle.
We are social creatures. Social creatures interact highly with one another to the point of having a recognizable and distinct group – and in briefly thinking about the development of most civilizations from my school days (fyi – I still enjoy reading stuff about the history of countries, ideas, religions, philosophy, technology) I’m aware that the initial big group usually develops subgroups – subcultures.
Christianity like any other organized religious group will have some type of organizational structure - so the same idea - the big picture is All Christians - then you can get into subgroups, different denominations, differences in doctrine, etc.... I would imagine most folks in any particular Christian group usually assume they conduct the daily “business” of their group after some ideals from the New Testament. On a bigger scale with mega-churches and televangelists there’s going to be more layers of administrative and technical duties – more “curtains” if you will – that remain invisible behind the main “production” that are in place to support and facilitate the music, entertainment and preaching / teaching on the main stage.
There should be as much transparency as possible – no opaque curtain – no actors who put on masks and play to the audience in a manner that will get the strongest approval. There should be no hidden agenda by those on stage or backstage. What you see should be what you get – what’s on the outside label of ingredients should reflect EXACTLY the contents of the “package” on the shelf.
In my previous post I got into what happens backstage – wierwille and his predatory behavior. Usually I can count on a certain big-wierwille-PFAL-fan to counterargue anytime I mention the gory-details-of-the-wierwille-PFAL-glory-days - the aforementioned big-wierwille-PFAL-fan will usually attempt to minimize wierwille’s bad behavior by emphasizing the good-and-greatness-of-PFAL by far outweighs any bad things he had done…the whole dynamic of this makes for some good food for thought to any TWI-followers who check out Grease Spot…this is so exciting!!!!!
In this post I’m getting into what happened onstage – this post is dedicated to all the men and women who wierwille never had an “opportunity “ to actually fvck but he certainly virtually fvcked…yup - he fvcked up a lot of followers intellectually, emotionally, financially, socially, doctrinally, career wise, family wise and in every other way possible.
ok where was I ?
oh onstage in front of everyone – and by pushing this metaphor to the T-Bone-superlative, “onstage” refers to anything wierwille has said or done openly – like filming the PFAL class, other classes, PFAL books, Way Mags, Sunday Night Teaching tapes, RoA, etc. – and by flaunting my superpowers of run-on sentences and metaphors mix-‘em-ups I’ve calibrated the parameters of my toxicity-targeting-system to aim at one particular night in Wichita, Kansas – I think it was called either Weekend in The Word or Heartbeat Festival…anyway wierwille is on stage blathering about how great his ministry is in teaching about the one true God – and then (let me insert a spacer here to have the next line sit there like a big fat turd in all it’s glory-gory-details)
wierwille launches into his typical anti-Trinity rant saying that in order for a person to really believe in the Trinity they have to be possessed by a devil spirit.
And to add flavorful toppings to this particular turd – wierwille would often proclaim in the Advanced Class that it’s religious leaders born again of the seed of the serpent who are promulgating the lie of the Trinity.
hey- I wonder why TWI’s website does not put great “truths” like that stuff on it…that would be some exciting $hit instead of the namby pamby way they soften up their statement of beliefs - of course that might jeopardize sales of his books …can you imagine if they had ads for his book “Jesus Christ is not God” with slogans like “to really believe in the Trinity a person has to be possessed by a devil spirit “.
I was raised Roman Catholic, but I had never heard of the Trinity being such a galvanizing issue until I got in TWI. On a practical basis I never really understood what the big deal was in wierwille’s anti-Trinity rants. If Jesus Christ is your Lord and Savior – that should be the end of it - aren’t we all on the same team, then? But looking back I now think wierwille's anti-Trinity "campaigns" were a gimmick to distinguish himself from mainstream Christianity.
wierwille’s fearmongering sounds like a playbook from one of the characters in the Harry Potter movies. Psychologists say gaslighting is a form of manipulation that occurs in abusive relationships – where a bully…an abuser…a cult-leader tries to get you to question your judgements and reality.
Think about the practical aspects of wierwille’s anti-Trinity rants that would involve real situations and events and how you would interact with another person who may not have exactly the same concept of Jesus Christ as you do. Do you think it’s okay what wierwille said? Does that sound like something Jesus Christ would endorse? We in TWI prided ourselves on being non-denominational and usually when I was “witnessing” and came across a Christian and we got into theology - I felt I was superior because I knew his denomination believed in the Trinity…what an egotistical-wierwille-flunky I was – please forgive me , Lord Jesus!
Didn’t Jesus say in John 13:35 "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." This blacklisting of Christians who accept the Trinity doesn’t seem to be a very loving thing to do.
and maybe don't be so doctrinally critical of other Christian groups - remember this in Luke 9: 46- 50 “An argument arose among them as to which of them was the greatest. But Jesus, knowing the reasoning of their hearts, took a child and put him by his side and said to them, “Whoever receives this child in my name receives me, and whoever receives me receives him who sent me. For he who is least among you all is the one who is great.” John answered, “Master, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he does not follow with us.” But Jesus said to him, “Do not stop him, for the one who is not against you is for you.”
Edited by T-Bone typos and formatting...the glory daze of editing - typewriter, Whiteout, pizza, coca cola
There's always been a disconnect between the REALITY of twi and the CLAIMS of twi.
IIRC, it was ROA 77 (but it could have been later) when vpw said they were going to take a list of all the verses that said that Jesus is the Son of God, and nail them to the doors of the local churches that afternoon (Sunday, at the close.)
What happened?
vpw went to each church door, without a list of any kind. He left a sign- "Jesus Christ-not God, never was, never will be!" and an autographed copy of "Jesus Christ is Not God."
If there was any hope that discussion MIGHT have been sparked by the list, absolutely none was sparked by the antagonistic sign, and the autographed copy of the book was just ego-massage. None of that accomplished anything other than making vpw feel important.
So to obviate, if Mike is a fake account of a way leader, then he would already have a manipulated position in the way and the story about calling hq and not being let in would be a lie.
They would do that. 100%.
You folks seem to be crawling the walls for something to talk about. You got a dead topic, but can't move on, it seems.
No, I'm not a fake account, nor a Way leader. I'm just someone who genuinely benefited greatly from PFAL and some leaders. To this day I STILL am benefited by VPW and the Word he taught. If any of you are better qualified to bless God's people then DO IT!
The so-called plagiarism is another dead topic. Complain to God about it, why don't you. I was in the slow lane sexually, and never directly saw any problems, until 1982, and they were relatively tame, not involving any leaders. I was not coerced into the Corps, and I waited for 11 years before I felt ready to go WOW. Maybe God protected me.
Just to end these REALLY desperate and stupid suggestions about me, please ask Ralph Dubofski if I am real. He knew me on Long Island where even HE admits many got super blessed in the early 1970s there, before he went into the Corps.
Or ask Pawtucket. I met him when he visited Pam Sandiego 15 years, and he gave me a GreaseSpot T-shirt.
Now, I hope we can have better conversations, now that all these idiotic guesses about me can end.
I will define "better" and, but can bet you wont accept my definition.
You folks seem to be crawling the walls for something to talk about. You got a dead topic, but can't move on, it seems.
No, I'm not a fake account, nor a Way leader. I'm just someone who genuinely benefited greatly from PFAL and some leaders. To this day I STILL am benefited by VPW and the Word he taught. If any of you are better qualified to bless God's people then DO IT!
The so-called plagiarism is another dead topic. Complain to God about it, why don't you. I was in the slow lane sexually, and never directly saw any problems, until 1982, and they were relatively tame, not involving any leaders. I was not coerced into the Corps, and I waited for 11 years before I felt ready to go WOW. Maybe God protected me.
Just to end these REALLY desperate and stupid suggestions about me, please ask Ralph Dubofski if I am real. He knew me on Long Island where even HE admits many got super blessed in the early 1970s there, before he went into the Corps.
Or ask Pawtucket. I met him when he visited Pam Sandiego 15 years, and he gave me a GreaseSpot T-shirt.
Now, I hope we can have better conversations, now that all these idiotic guesses about me can end.
I will define "better" and, but can bet you wont accept my definition.
For the record, Mike, are you on the spectrum? I appreciate Twinky introducing the topic, but figured it would be helpful to hear it from you. Thanks.
For the record, Mike, are you on the spectrum? I appreciate Twinky introducing the topic, but figured it would be helpful to hear it from you. Thanks.
LoL.
So you appreciate Twinky's speculation and guessing!
Why is that not a surprise to me?
When you folks get desperate you change the topic to an attack on me with guesses and speculations. I hope you know this is apparent to all readers, including the ones you (plural) are supposing to "minster" to.
And speaking of those that are supposedly ministered to by all the whistleblowers here, I wonder if you ever thought through what those people do AFTER being so warned about the evils of one institution. Without the accurate Word, they go and get ripped off by some other entity. Duh!
When are you folks going to offer God's Word to people? How many are you undershepherding right now?
Time is a wasting, and you all will be held accountable for all the speculations and guessing you do.
Get a life! Teach one person the Word, if you are still able.
When you folks get desperate you change the topic to an attack on me with guesses and speculations. I hope you know this is apparent to all readers, including the ones you (plural) are supposing to "minster" to.
It's not an attack. Being on the spectrum (neuro-atypical) is plenty common enough and if you are and if we understand it to be the case, the discussion(s) with you and frustration about your obfuscation can more readily be ameliorated.
As to "ones WE are supposing to minister to," that's not how I or (I suspect) most others characterize our interaction with other Greasespotters.
My life has meaning and mission, but not necessarily to "Teach one person the Word, if [we] are still able." What gives meaning to a life is up to each life.
That said, I would appreciate it and respect you plenty if you could find the personal strength to let yourself be vulnerable on that matter. Willingness to be vulnerable is an indicator of strength, not weakness.
I hate to be the one to break it to you, Mike, but.....
you overrate your significance on this board.
Things don't revolve around you, nor do we wish you'd suddenly start posting again when you take a break.
This SHOULD be comforting- as in, there's less pressure to perform, but more likely, it's LESS comforting for someone who's still searching for converts to his belief system.
BTW, being on the spectrum would remove a lot of the stigma of your refusal to converse in a civil manner like everyone else, since you might be unable to see the difference. That wouldn't be an "attack", it would partly excuse you for previous incidents.
When you folks get desperate you change the topic to an attack on me with guesses and speculations.
It was you who changed the topic, Mike. If you stayed on topic, you wouldn't drag everyone off into jumping on you.
11 hours ago, Mike said:
When are you folks going to offer God's Word to people? How many are you undershepherding right now?
You have no idea what people are doing, but rest assured, offering "God's Word" PFAL style probably isn't it. However, there are people here who are offering God's Word in many other ways.
"Under-shepherding" and other Way jargon doesn't cut it either. We are to help each other and guide each other in the way of Truth, and that means helping and guiding from the newest Christian to the apparently most mature. Not one of us is perfect, so we all need a little help and guidance at times.
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WordWolf
I hate to be the one to break it to you, Mike, but..... you overrate your significance on this board. Things don't revolve around you, nor do we wish you'd suddenly start posting again when
Rocky
It won't work. Society has changed drastically since the 1970s. TWI is trying to come up with "new" ideas but said ideas are putting old wine in hopefully new wineskins... or new wine in old wineskins
Twinky
It was you who changed the topic, Mike. If you stayed on topic, you wouldn't drag everyone off into jumping on you. You have no idea what people are doing, but rest assured, offering "God's Wo
Twinky
Just to bring this back on track, here's the starter post:
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Rocky
Now THAT makes sense. The light comes on
regarding our good friend Mike.
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cman
I kind of relate to Mike in some ways, as I was pro-pfal at some point in my life. I could have a conversation if he wants to talk.
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Mike
That's nice to hear. Please send me a PM. I forget how to do it here.
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cman
lol, you so funny
I'm not PMing you, but I will talk to you here. I suspect you have forgotten how to talk to another human. It's time to remember or start anew because that is where God is.
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chockfull
Mike I'll be honest there is very little self awareness or reflection in all of this. No cult sexual manipulation, plagiarism, and shunning are not marble cake that someone bit into the wrong part of.
It's too bad you can't relate to the parts of my post that could be of help. In fact much of your response sounds like I am speaking to a pseudo account of someone pretending to be a character. Which would be consistent with you just not quite getting it online here.
It's ok. If you are a fake way leader, you can fool me. It's fine. If you are just kind of a guy bumbling along like you pretend to be I wish you the best.
Either way rote repetition reading of old way materials won't save you any more than the rosaries we left in the catholic church. And I got rid of my blue book 10 years ago because who needs that to quote them anyway. Any good way follower could teach most of the blue book from memory, right mike?
so what should we do mike? Call headquarters like you and be put on a list to be evaluated whether they will let us back in or not?
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chockfull
Yes it was usurped. Possibly the intent. To direct attention away from johnj and the 3 generation accurate analysis of the way and to act dumb and encourage people to read old materials and go back to the way.
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chockfull
So to obviate, if Mike is a fake account of a way leader, then he would already have a manipulated position in the way and the story about calling hq and not being let in would be a lie.
They would do that. 100%.
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chockfull
My takeaway from all this is where you see the most twisting of the topics on threads, that is probably where the Way is feeling the heat of the truth the most. And fake white knights are motivated to ride in.
Yes the Way is looping a pattern from summer schools decades ago. Be the pied piper to the youth, lead them away with your pipes. Don't let any of those possessed old 35 year old adults with mature minds and support systems in.
Then lie some more about the past until nobody cares and ride those positions into the sunset.
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WordWolf
I don't think it's an example of that- I think it's en example of something else.
I don't think twi is alone in trying to recapture "the glory years", especially as they're remembered but not as they actually were.
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T-Bone
Yes !
Recently I was rereading Kristen Skedgell’s memoir Losing the Way: A Memoir of Spiritual Longing, Manipulation, Abuse,and Escape it got me thinking about this thread – TWI trying to revive the glory days – and comments from someone who still talks it up on how great wierwille and the PFAL class were/are. I try to take the person at face value and guess they’ve mastered how to ignore / hide disappointment. Going on what he said elsewhere I know he was never in the way corps. If he is being genuine in his posts - perhaps some folks are just happy thinking wierwille and PFAL are the greatest thing since rightly divided bread. I mean do they still really believe God talked to wierwille and taught him “The Word” so he could teach it to others. That’s the wierwille we all started out knowing about. But for those of us who went into the way corps – we got to see another side of him – the real side of him…this is like a tale of two wierwilles…
In her memoir Kristen relates an incident that happened at the way corps training campus in Rome City. It was during her block assignment in housekeeping. One of her responsibilities included the Coachman Suite – she would be attentive to caring for wierwille’s needs whenever he would visit the campus. Being excited about “the man of God” coming to visit, Kristen wrote a welcome letter and place it on his pillow saying she would “do anything to make his time more blessed here”.
The following night, after the evening teaching wierwille called Kristen to his suite. He has a glass of Drambuie in one hand and a cigarette in the other – he sits very relaxed – he had taken off his suit coat and tie, the top button of his white shirt was undone, and his shoes were kicked off. He asks her to sit on the bed and they exchange some polite small talk. He then asks her if she really meant what she said in the little welcome note. “Of course” she says.
Then wierwille says “Well, there is one thing you can do for me. I’d like you to take off your clothes. I’d like to show you how to really make love to a man. You know what I’m talking about. You’re of age. Don’t you want me to show you how to have intercourse? How to make love to a man of God!”
In the book Kristen says “This is tantamount to a father soliciting sex from his daughter. The betrayal is unthinkable.” Trying to delay or avert wierwille’s advances, Kristen tried asking him how such an act is consistent with The Word. He explains that all things are pure to the pure…it’s a matter of keeping our minds renewed and centered on God…a man of God needs many women to satisfy his overwhelming needs.
There is nothing titillating when Kristen describes wierwille sexually molesting her. It’s like reading a police report of a daughter being raped by her own father. It is horrifying to read and I have no words to express my uncomfortable feelings over it…a part of me aches in sympathy for Kristen and then there’s utter revulsion over wierwille’s betrayal…afterwards he says to her “It’s the lockbox, honey. You have to keep this in the lockbox of your soul. Many of God’s people wouldn’t understand what we’ve just done.”
Kristen’s story is not unique…how many hundreds – if not thousands of women suffered from this sexual predator.
To show my appreciation for someone’s nostalgia posts of wierwille / PFAL I like to use them as a springboard for unveiling stuff about the real wierwille – unabashed plagiarist, megalomaniac, malignant narcissist, mean-spirited, hypocritical, delusional, money-grubbing, pontificating phony, sexual predator.
Disappointment means you’ve exercised enough critical thinking to realize a product, service or person did not live up to what was expected. But I think betrayal is worse. Betrayal means you’ve invested so much of yourself into the relationship – you totally trusted the other person – someone you really admired - had great respect for their accomplishments and their status in the ministry – someone you confided in – someone you looked to for providing biblical counsel and being an example of how to live the Christian lifestyle - – and you never expected to be cheated by them…so callously exploited. Betrayal is the sense of being deeply hurt by the intentional actions of a person you really trusted…yup let’s get back to those glory - I mean gory days !
Edited by T-BoneFor all you TWI-glory-days-revivalists-suckers-gluttons-for-punishment - beware !
wierwille may be dead but he is not gone. His ghost still haunts the whited sepulcher known as The Way International…late at night you can hear him shuffling about with Drambuie in one hand and a cigarette in the other, cackling as he spouts one-liners from PFAL “…technically all the women in the kingdom belong to the king…millions now smoking…the law of believing works for saint and sinner alike…ask the pendant – yes, no, yes, no…”
typos and formatting...are the dead alive now? maybe the ghost of wierwille knows.
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Twinky
I am revolted by Kirsten's description, T-Bone. Sickening. Just. Sickening.
When I first moved to this city, I had a now-deceased friend who was a Wayfer. He was a much older man, showed great kindness, and was very helpful to me in my confused post-Way state. (Just talking friendship, brotherly love; nothing sexual.) I even stayed with him briefly after a few months, before I completed the purchase of my own house. But he was soooo set in his PFAL belief, and that VPW was such a great MoG. He was very hard to talk to about some things, didn't believe a word I said about the corruption within the "ministry," and berated me for "speaking evil." So did other Wayfers round about in this area. Conversation with friend became more about what we avoided, than what we talked about.
If you only saw RoA, if everybody there was nicey-nice to you (especially if you were an International), if you didn't see behind the curtain - you always had this idea of how wonderful TWI and all its people were. You never saw inside the whited sepulchre. You never saw or smelled the decay within.
In the OT, people were "unclean" for a specified period if they'd touched a human dead body. There was good reason for that. And there's very good reason to be "unclean," if people have touched the dead body of TWI. Especially if they keep "touching" it by rehashing its glory days in their memories.
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T-Bone
Exactly !
“behind the curtain” is quite a mind picture and goes along well with the idea of actors on a stage. The word hypocrite comes from the Greek word hypokrites and refers to an actor or a stage player. I’ve read one definition that said the word literally translates as “an interpreter from underneath” which reflects that ancient Greek actors wore masks and the actor spoke from underneath that mask. That should put a little more oomph into the next time you read Matthew 23
But I don’t think Jesus was condemning the role of religious leaders - he was condemning the people in those positions who assumed the role of a religious leader as an actor’s part in a play - putting on a show - and when the show was over they would go back to their deplorable lifestyle.
We are social creatures. Social creatures interact highly with one another to the point of having a recognizable and distinct group – and in briefly thinking about the development of most civilizations from my school days (fyi – I still enjoy reading stuff about the history of countries, ideas, religions, philosophy, technology) I’m aware that the initial big group usually develops subgroups – subcultures.
Christianity like any other organized religious group will have some type of organizational structure - so the same idea - the big picture is All Christians - then you can get into subgroups, different denominations, differences in doctrine, etc.... I would imagine most folks in any particular Christian group usually assume they conduct the daily “business” of their group after some ideals from the New Testament. On a bigger scale with mega-churches and televangelists there’s going to be more layers of administrative and technical duties – more “curtains” if you will – that remain invisible behind the main “production” that are in place to support and facilitate the music, entertainment and preaching / teaching on the main stage.
There should be as much transparency as possible – no opaque curtain – no actors who put on masks and play to the audience in a manner that will get the strongest approval. There should be no hidden agenda by those on stage or backstage. What you see should be what you get – what’s on the outside label of ingredients should reflect EXACTLY the contents of the “package” on the shelf.
In my previous post I got into what happens backstage – wierwille and his predatory behavior. Usually I can count on a certain big-wierwille-PFAL-fan to counterargue anytime I mention the gory-details-of-the-wierwille-PFAL-glory-days - the aforementioned big-wierwille-PFAL-fan will usually attempt to minimize wierwille’s bad behavior by emphasizing the good-and-greatness-of-PFAL by far outweighs any bad things he had done…the whole dynamic of this makes for some good food for thought to any TWI-followers who check out Grease Spot…this is so exciting!!!!!
In this post I’m getting into what happened onstage – this post is dedicated to all the men and women who wierwille never had an “opportunity “ to actually fvck but he certainly virtually fvcked…yup - he fvcked up a lot of followers intellectually, emotionally, financially, socially, doctrinally, career wise, family wise and in every other way possible.
ok where was I ?
oh onstage in front of everyone – and by pushing this metaphor to the T-Bone-superlative, “onstage” refers to anything wierwille has said or done openly – like filming the PFAL class, other classes, PFAL books, Way Mags, Sunday Night Teaching tapes, RoA, etc. – and by flaunting my superpowers of run-on sentences and metaphors mix-‘em-ups I’ve calibrated the parameters of my toxicity-targeting-system to aim at one particular night in Wichita, Kansas – I think it was called either Weekend in The Word or Heartbeat Festival…anyway wierwille is on stage blathering about how great his ministry is in teaching about the one true God – and then (let me insert a spacer here to have the next line sit there like a big fat turd in all it’s glory-gory-details)
wierwille launches into his typical anti-Trinity rant saying that in order for a person to really believe in the Trinity they have to be possessed by a devil spirit.
And to add flavorful toppings to this particular turd – wierwille would often proclaim in the Advanced Class that it’s religious leaders born again of the seed of the serpent who are promulgating the lie of the Trinity.
hey- I wonder why TWI’s website does not put great “truths” like that stuff on it…that would be some exciting $hit instead of the namby pamby way they soften up their statement of beliefs - of course that might jeopardize sales of his books …can you imagine if they had ads for his book “Jesus Christ is not God” with slogans like “to really believe in the Trinity a person has to be possessed by a devil spirit “.
I was raised Roman Catholic, but I had never heard of the Trinity being such a galvanizing issue until I got in TWI. On a practical basis I never really understood what the big deal was in wierwille’s anti-Trinity rants. If Jesus Christ is your Lord and Savior – that should be the end of it - aren’t we all on the same team, then? But looking back I now think wierwille's anti-Trinity "campaigns" were a gimmick to distinguish himself from mainstream Christianity.
wierwille’s fearmongering sounds like a playbook from one of the characters in the Harry Potter movies. Psychologists say gaslighting is a form of manipulation that occurs in abusive relationships – where a bully…an abuser…a cult-leader tries to get you to question your judgements and reality.
Think about the practical aspects of wierwille’s anti-Trinity rants that would involve real situations and events and how you would interact with another person who may not have exactly the same concept of Jesus Christ as you do. Do you think it’s okay what wierwille said? Does that sound like something Jesus Christ would endorse? We in TWI prided ourselves on being non-denominational and usually when I was “witnessing” and came across a Christian and we got into theology - I felt I was superior because I knew his denomination believed in the Trinity…what an egotistical-wierwille-flunky I was – please forgive me , Lord Jesus!
Didn’t Jesus say in John 13:35 "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." This blacklisting of Christians who accept the Trinity doesn’t seem to be a very loving thing to do.
and maybe don't be so doctrinally critical of other Christian groups - remember this in Luke 9: 46- 50 “An argument arose among them as to which of them was the greatest. But Jesus, knowing the reasoning of their hearts, took a child and put him by his side and said to them, “Whoever receives this child in my name receives me, and whoever receives me receives him who sent me. For he who is least among you all is the one who is great.” John answered, “Master, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he does not follow with us.” But Jesus said to him, “Do not stop him, for the one who is not against you is for you.”
Edited by T-Bonetypos and formatting...the glory daze of editing - typewriter, Whiteout, pizza, coca cola
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WordWolf
There's always been a disconnect between the REALITY of twi and the CLAIMS of twi.
IIRC, it was ROA 77 (but it could have been later) when vpw said they were going to take a list of all the verses that said that Jesus is the Son of God, and nail them to the doors of the local churches that afternoon (Sunday, at the close.)
What happened?
vpw went to each church door, without a list of any kind. He left a sign- "Jesus Christ-not God, never was, never will be!" and an autographed copy of "Jesus Christ is Not God."
If there was any hope that discussion MIGHT have been sparked by the list, absolutely none was sparked by the antagonistic sign, and the autographed copy of the book was just ego-massage. None of that accomplished anything other than making vpw feel important.
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Mike
You folks seem to be crawling the walls for something to talk about. You got a dead topic, but can't move on, it seems.
No, I'm not a fake account, nor a Way leader. I'm just someone who genuinely benefited greatly from PFAL and some leaders. To this day I STILL am benefited by VPW and the Word he taught. If any of you are better qualified to bless God's people then DO IT!
The so-called plagiarism is another dead topic. Complain to God about it, why don't you. I was in the slow lane sexually, and never directly saw any problems, until 1982, and they were relatively tame, not involving any leaders. I was not coerced into the Corps, and I waited for 11 years before I felt ready to go WOW. Maybe God protected me.
Just to end these REALLY desperate and stupid suggestions about me, please ask Ralph Dubofski if I am real. He knew me on Long Island where even HE admits many got super blessed in the early 1970s there, before he went into the Corps.
Or ask Pawtucket. I met him when he visited Pam Sandiego 15 years, and he gave me a GreaseSpot T-shirt.
Now, I hope we can have better conversations, now that all these idiotic guesses about me can end.
I will define "better" and, but can bet you wont accept my definition.
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Rocky
For the record, Mike, are you on the spectrum? I appreciate Twinky introducing the topic, but figured it would be helpful to hear it from you. Thanks.
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Bolshevik
I was wondering if "super blessed" was a euphemism. Like drugs? Emotionally induced high?
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Mike
LoL.
So you appreciate Twinky's speculation and guessing!
Why is that not a surprise to me?
When you folks get desperate you change the topic to an attack on me with guesses and speculations. I hope you know this is apparent to all readers, including the ones you (plural) are supposing to "minster" to.
And speaking of those that are supposedly ministered to by all the whistleblowers here, I wonder if you ever thought through what those people do AFTER being so warned about the evils of one institution. Without the accurate Word, they go and get ripped off by some other entity. Duh!
When are you folks going to offer God's Word to people? How many are you undershepherding right now?
Time is a wasting, and you all will be held accountable for all the speculations and guessing you do.
Get a life! Teach one person the Word, if you are still able.
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Rocky
It's not an attack. Being on the spectrum (neuro-atypical) is plenty common enough and if you are and if we understand it to be the case, the discussion(s) with you and frustration about your obfuscation can more readily be ameliorated.
Edited by RockyAs to "ones WE are supposing to minister to," that's not how I or (I suspect) most others characterize our interaction with other Greasespotters.
My life has meaning and mission, but not necessarily to "Teach one person the Word, if [we] are still able." What gives meaning to a life is up to each life.
That said, I would appreciate it and respect you plenty if you could find the personal strength to let yourself be vulnerable on that matter. Willingness to be vulnerable is an indicator of strength, not weakness.
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cman
well.... Mike, going off on a little tizzy?
What is "God's Word"?
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WordWolf
I hate to be the one to break it to you, Mike, but.....
you overrate your significance on this board.
Things don't revolve around you, nor do we wish you'd suddenly start posting again when you take a break.
This SHOULD be comforting- as in, there's less pressure to perform, but more likely, it's LESS comforting for someone who's still searching for converts to his belief system.
BTW, being on the spectrum would remove a lot of the stigma of your refusal to converse in a civil manner like everyone else, since you might be unable to see the difference. That wouldn't be an "attack", it would partly excuse you for previous incidents.
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waysider
Salesman: You should buy this car.
Me: Why?
Salesman: I can't tell you.
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Twinky
It was you who changed the topic, Mike. If you stayed on topic, you wouldn't drag everyone off into jumping on you.
You have no idea what people are doing, but rest assured, offering "God's Word" PFAL style probably isn't it. However, there are people here who are offering God's Word in many other ways.
"Under-shepherding" and other Way jargon doesn't cut it either. We are to help each other and guide each other in the way of Truth, and that means helping and guiding from the newest Christian to the apparently most mature. Not one of us is perfect, so we all need a little help and guidance at times.
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Bolshevik
Mike is both defensive and indicates some sort of feel-good feedback response, like conditioning or addiction.
He shouldn't have to answer the spectrum questions. JMO.
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