Because there are folks in TWI telling me the same thing, with just as little detail.
Would be nice to get under that.
Sure, it would be nice. But experience has shown that what you're doing so far to get there with him has not, does not, and because we (humans) can use that information to reasonably predict the future, will not get the job done.
Sure, it would be nice. But experience has shown that what you're doing so far to get there with him has not, does not, and because we (humans) can use that information to reasonably predict the future, will not get the job done.
*shrugs*
It's just an exercise. The tyranny of PFAL isn't on the internet.
I don't know how anyone could come up with what VPW came up with by reading the KJV. I don't know how many times I asked, at age 11, where did this come from? I don't see the connection? . . . the response was always "take The Class, take The Class". Those who took the class decades ago couldn't explain anything. Biblical keys couldn't unlock new research because they couldn't unlock an open door. . . . only The Class could explain The Class. Lack of understanding meant retake The Class.
VPW himself said he didn't come up with his interpretation until sniffing fumes off the gas pumps, voices and all. Then he jotted down some notes off someone else's works . . .
Reading the Bible in TWI is the same as interpretation of tongues. You were told prior what to think. You acted and thought and spoke according to someone else's dictates.
On 12/8/2021 at 8:09 AM, Bolshevik said:
*shrugs*
It's just an exercise. The tyranny of PFAL isn't on the internet.
On 12/8/2021 at 8:22 AM, waysider said:
It's spiritual. You just need to S.I.T. more and believe harder.
On 12/3/2021 at 4:50 PM, johnj said:
It seems TWI is trying to revive the “gory glory years.” It plans to revive “the Rock” as “Young Adult Rock” Aug 12-14, 2022. They call it a “Christian music festival” for Foundational class grads ages 18-35. A few days after it, TWI plans to send out Way “Ambassadors.” The “Ambassadors of The Way Outreach Program” will replace both the original WOW and the Way Disciples outreach program, which sends an anemic 4 teams (approx.) per term/ year. They will serve Aug 21 to June 4, 2023.That’s a 9.5 month term vs. the 6 month disciple and 12 month WOW terms. They hope to have Ambassadors in 12 countries in which there are active Way Corps. How many people will they actually get? What do they mean by "Christian music"?
That’s some great points !
One of wierwille’s insidious mind-numbing tactics was encouraging followers to engage in “mental busy work” – an activity that keeps the brain cells preoccupied but has little value in itself. wierwille stressed followers merely absorb information without scrutinizing it. It was not only a diversion meant to take up “think-time” to thwart thoughtful analysis but also through repetition served to indoctrinate followers under the guise of “studying and reviewing the PFAL material”.
Bolshevik: “only The Class could explain The Class.Lack of understanding meant retake The Class” – true that! What’s faster than a speeding bulletmore powerful than a locomotive- more complicated than a wheel within a wheel? It is “the tyranny of PFAL” – perhaps it’s more like “a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma”. That is from a line used by Winston Churchill to describe the intentions and interests of Russia in 1939. Churchill’s line has come to mean that which is so dense and secretive as to be totally indecipherable or impossible to foretell – to denote a person, a fact, a situation, etc., that is too difficult to make sense of. PFAL is like that - it is rife with logical fallacies, patchwork plagiarism, wierwille’s signature intuition, fundamentalism, spiritualism, and Gnosticism. So basically, the frame of thought behind PFAL is really wierwille’s own twisted ideology and narcissism. It is so dense with erroneous reasoning, inconsistencies, false assumptions, and pat answers that it falls way short of being a systematic and practical approach to anything.
Though it is never stated outright in any literature of The Way International, the words of wierwille are considered by loyal followers to be on par with Scripture – in other words, whatever wierwille says about a passage has approximately equal authority as Scripture itself. I remember at PFAL ’77 – a live re-filming of the “original” PFAL class of 1967 – one of the master of ceremonies, a TWI-ordained clergyman came on stage to answer the question many of us were wondering “would this new PFAL 77 class replace the old 1967 PFAL class as THE introductory class when joining TWI?”. But the clergyman shot down that idea by simply stating “did the Apostle Paul need to re-write the book of Ephesians?”The switcheroo happens surreptitiously before the uncritical mind. The absolute authority of The Bible is usurped in a stealthy manner – under cover of the assumption by all, that wierwille was good at “rightly dividing The Word”AND per the mythology of wierwille being guided by God Himself (see my earlier post referencing Elena S. Whiteside’s authorized book on TWI – “The Way Living in Love” - clickhere
…that’s assuming your “needs and wants are parallel”.
Grads of the class were encouraged to “make it their own” – but God forbid you deviated or contradicted anything wierwille taught. Thus, what grads thought and taught was merely parroting…regurgitating what wierwille said. This mechanical repetition was falsely assumed to be “thinking / living / doing / teaching / moving The Word”.
Waysider: “It's spiritual. You just need to S.I.T. more and believe harder” – true that too! One of wierwille’s methods of sidestepping any real issues folks had with the ministry’s extraordinary claims was to teach that we should not go by our five senses or worldly logic – that it was part of the spiritual battle... When I first got involved with TWI, being young and naïve I bought into all that – TWI’s ideas provided a means to rationalize away logic and reality…I think “successful” con artists have a real knack for embedding the process of self-deception into devoted followers.
Johnj: “It seems TWI is trying to revive the “gory glory years.”Which means they will have to revive the lies. Any diehard wierwille-fan knows that…which also makes me wonder how good or great something is if you have to lie and generate a bunch of hype about it. You know, wierwille was a pathological liar – maybe that’s one of the intangible assets he bequeathed to TWI. I found an interesting article on Psychology Today:
6 Reasons People Lie When They Don’t Need To - understanding the motivations of pathological liars.
Posted January 23, 2017 David J. Ley Ph.D.
“People may lie because they believe the lie is critically important, even though it may seem inconsequential.
Other reasons for lying include trying to control a situation or to avoid disappointing someone.
Most people usually tell the truth, and it may be helpful to try to understand the motivations behind why someone lies.
1. The lie does matter ... to them. The number one reason people lie when it just doesn’t matter is because they actually do think it matters. While everyone around them thinks it’s an inconsequential issue, the liar believes it is critically important. They may be putting undeserved emphasis or pressure on themselves, or on the issue, but you won’t know unless you ask something like, “It seems like this issue is really important to you — why?”
2. Telling the truth feels like giving up control. Often, people tell lies because they are trying to control a situation and exert influence toward getting the decisions or reactions they want. The truth can be “inconvenient” because it might not conform to their narrative.
3. They don’t want to disappoint you. It may not feel like it to you, but people who tell lie after lie are often worried about losing the respect of those around them. They want you to like them, be impressed, and value them. And they’re worried that the truth might lead you to reject or shame them.
4. Lies snowball. I remember a cartoon my kids watched years ago about how lies grow. We tell a little bitty lie, but then to cover that lie, we have to tell another one, then another, and another — each gets bigger and bigger. Finally, we’re arguing about the color of the sky, because to admit anything creates the potential of the entire house of cards tumbling. If a chronic liar admits to any single lie, they feel like they’re admitting to being a liar, and then you’ll have reason to distrust them.
5. It’s not a lie to them. When we are under pressure, our thinking about the big picture can be challenged. Our memory of things is actually quite unreliable: Multiple studies demonstrate that our memories are influenced by many things, that they change over time, and that they are essentially reconstructed each time we think about them. Often, repetitive liars feel so much pressure in the moment that their memory becomes simply unreliable. When they say something, it’s often because they genuinely believe, at that moment, that it is the truth. Their memory has been overwhelmed by stress, current events, and their desire to find a way to make this situation work. Sometimes, this can become so severe that the person almost seems to have created a complete alternate world in their head, one that conforms to their moment-by-moment beliefs and needs.
6. They want it to be true. Finally, the liar might want their lie to be true so badly that their desire and needs again overwhelm their instinct to tell the truth. “Be the change you want to see in the world,” Gandhi never actually said. But sometimes, liars hope that they can make something come true by saying it over and over, and by believing it as hard as they can. In today’s environment of “alternative facts,” it’s hard not to see this as somewhat justified.”
Johnj: “It seems TWI is trying to revive the “gory glory years.” It plans to revive “the Rock” as “Young Adult Rock” Aug 12-14, 2022. They call it a “Christian music festival” for Foundational class grads ages 18-35. A few days after it, TWI plans to send outWay “Ambassadors.” The “Ambassadors of The Way Outreach Program” will replace both the original WOW and the Way Disciples outreach program, which sends an anemic 4 teams (approx.) per term/ year. They will serve Aug 21 to June 4, 2023.That’s a 9.5 month term vs. the 6 month disciple and 12 month WOW terms. They hope to have Ambassadors in 12 countries in which there are active Way Corps. How many people will they actually get?” I was a WOW in Washington DC 1975-76 - if memory serves me well, we were a branch of 28 WOWs …yeah those were the “glory days” alright. We may have had a greater number of WOWs – but the results of our outreach were anemic…classes were small made up of students from several Twigs – even outside of the DC area…Of course, the upcoming Ambassadors of The Way training will probably go heavy on not looking at numbers but at the spiritual impact of their outreach…oh yeah, I remember wierwille telling us because of our stand on the WOW field we prevented the Illuminati-wrong-seed-boys-one-world-government-commies-Marxist-Minstrels-spiritual-whatnots-and-devilish-odds-and-ends from taking over the country ! whew you’re welcome.
Edited by T-Bone remember the glory days of editing - whiteout, pizza, coca cola and a dictionary
A personal thought- only God Almighty can revive the "glory years".. whatever they are. I personally would not even try to.
But if your job depended on a multi-million dollar nonprofit organization that employs who knows how many people these days, and the revenue was sharply/rapidly declining... you might be tempted to try.
Well, it's been fun, but I think I hear my mother calling me.
Maybe we can play word games again sometime.
Mike,
You call HQ all the time. You attended one limb meeting. Does this mean the way is letting you back in? Are you now again an active member? Have they permitted this?
You call HQ all the time. You attended one limb meeting. Does this mean the way is letting you back in? Are you now again an active member? Have they permitted this?
Are you holding your breath, waiting for an answer? That's bad for your health.
Ok, chockfull asked:
Does this mean the way is letting you back in?
Are you now again an active member?
Have they permitted this?
I thought my answer had implied answers of "No, No, and No."
Those are my overt answers.
I’m sorry Mike. One of the hardest things ever is struggling with some kind of mental illness and having people show you pretend compassion to take advantage of you, then reject you yet again.
I’m not saying that is you. But I probably have at least 2 or 3 conditions that developed in conjunction with or as a response to a cult. People stigmatize this or say it’s proof of devil spirits but they did that in the 1880s with the plague too. It’s especially insidious in cases where the Way caused the condition and then is ostracizing the victim due to the condition.
and no re reading the collaterals for the 1500th time aren’t going to produce any different results than any other cargo cult type activity.
There are no steps through reading material to take, no ladder of manifestations to climb. There is character, a desire to know in humble courage. I have learned what it is not, that's for sure. The way and many other experiences have brought out the best and worst of me, can I see it now? A little better I think.
I’m sorry Mike. One of the hardest things ever is struggling with some kind of mental illness and having people show you pretend compassion to take advantage of you, then reject you yet again.
I’m not saying that is you. But I probably have at least 2 or 3 conditions that developed in conjunction with or as a response to a cult. People stigmatize this or say it’s proof of devil spirits but they did that in the 1880s with the plague too. It’s especially insidious in cases where the Way caused the condition and then is ostracizing the victim due to the condition.
and no re reading the collaterals for the 1500th time aren’t going to produce any different results than any other cargo cult type activity.
*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*
I hear you. chockful.
And, I can sympathize with two thirds of your post.
One of the lucky skills I picked up from my very Catholic father was dodging inevitable corruptions that large institutions are prone to. He always sought out the rare RC deep thinkers, and learned to avoid the dark spots, like nuns and big-wig clergy.
Large institutions are like marble cake, and as TWI grew it had plenty of dark spots. I was pretty successful (like my dad) in avoiding them, but my luck started running out in the mid-80s.
My most consistent theme in my posting here is that from PFAL there were many pure things put into written form. At that time we only absorbed a fraction of the material, and since that time we forgot a lot of what we did absorb.
I would suggest that people who suffered from the wrong slices of the marble cake take a second, fresh look at the many pure PFAL things put into written form. A fresh look would mean dissociating oneself from the social darkness they experienced in the past.Understandably, this is not so easy for some people.
I NEVER GET POSITIVE INSPIRATION BY LOOKING AT MY TROUBLED PAST, or by looking at all those who offended me, or by looking at all those whom I offended.
I do get positive inspiration from looking solely at the teaching we got in PFAL (not the people) and how it still opens up God’s Word to us better than any of the splinter groups or the Big Stump.
I think if I were that interested, I'd try to source my review reading from the original books. Those that were plagiarised and repackaged as "PFAL" and "RHST." The precursors of VPW's poor copies.
Original (source) material would include JE Stiles - The Gift of the Holy Spirit
EW Bullinger - The Companion Bible - for a lot of materials and comments, even "expanded usages."
Where's PFAL from? I can no longer remember what was plagiarised for that.
As to the "collaterals" (which is not what Mike includes), they're mostly pinched from other available sources.
I think if I were that interested, I'd try to source my review reading from the original books. Those that were plagiarised and repackaged as "PFAL" and "RHST." The precursors of VPW's poor copies.
Original (source) material would include JE Stiles - The Gift of the Holy Spirit
EW Bullinger - The Companion Bible - for a lot of materials and comments, even "expanded usages."
Where's PFAL from? I can no longer remember what was plagiarised for that.
As to the "collaterals" (which is not what Mike includes), they're mostly pinched from other available sources.
And to add to your comment “if I were that interested, I'd try to source my review reading from the original books” I’d also recommend reading / thinking / questioning – to escape wierwille’s suffocating and manipulative convoluted theological box…below are 3 very interesting books for those who believe the Bible is a lot more relevant than the fearmongering and gaslighting tactics that wierwille managed to wring out of the fundamentalism interpretation of the Bible:
I think wierwille liked the polarizing effect of fundamentalism – it was another way of fostering an us-versus-them mentality. It’s we true believers versus those unbelievers – you know, those people who don’t think like wierwille…As much as I hate to admit it - as a cult-leader wierwille was a real smarty, fundamentalism was another ingenious way for him to tighten up the ranks and promote unity in the cult.
Fundamentalism is a strict, literal interpretation of the Bible. According to Alister McGrath(an Anglican priest, Professor of Science and Religion at the University of Oxford, theologian, intellectual historian, scientist, Christian apologist, and public intellectual)fundamentalism began in the late 19th and early 20th century within American Protestant circles - to defend the "fundamentals of belief" against the corrosive effects of liberalism within the very ranks of Protestantism.
Its outset has remained a counter-culture movement, using central doctrinal affirmations as a means of defining cultural boundaries. Certain major doctrines like the absolute literal authority of Scripture and the second coming of Christ - his premillennial return, became barriers to alienate secular culture and give fundamentalists a sense of identity and purpose. A siege mentality (a defensive or paranoid attitude based on the belief that others are hostile toward one) became characteristic of the movement.
Another interesting thing McGrath got into was how fundamentalism can be distinguished from evangelicalism by three general ideas:
1. Biblically, fundamentalism is totally hostile to the notion of biblical criticism in any form and is committed to a literal interpretation of Scripture. Evangelicalism however accepts the principle of sensible and trustworthy biblical criticism and recognizes the diversity of literary forms within Scripture.
2.Theologically, fundamentalism is narrowly committed to a set of doctrines – some of which evangelicalism regards as peripheral or even utterly irrelevant such as dispensationalism.
3.Sociologically, fundamentalism is a reactionary counter-cultural movement, with a tight criteria of membership. Evangelicalism is a cultural movement focused on relevance and has a loose basis for self-definition.
The element of irrationalism often associated with fundamentalism is lacking in evangelicalism which has produced significant writings in areas of the philosophy of religion and apologetics... My notes are from “Christian Theology: An Introduction” Second Edition by Alister E. McGrath c. 1994, 1997, Blackwell Publishers, pages 122 to 124.
And, I can sympathize with two thirds of your post.
One of the lucky skills I picked up from my very Catholic father was dodging inevitable corruptions that large institutions are prone to. He always sought out the rare RC deep thinkers, and learned to avoid the dark spots, like nuns and big-wig clergy.
Large institutions are like marble cake, and as TWI grew it had plenty of dark spots. I was pretty successful (like my dad) in avoiding them, but my luck started running out in the mid-80s.
My most consistent theme in my posting here is that from PFAL there were many pure things put into written form. At that time we only absorbed a fraction of the material, and since that time we forgot a lot of what we did absorb.
I would suggest that people who suffered from the wrong slices of the marble cake take a second, fresh look at the many pure PFAL things put into written form. A fresh look would mean dissociating oneself from the social darkness they experienced in the past.Understandably, this is not so easy for some people.
I NEVER GET POSITIVE INSPIRATION BY LOOKING AT MY TROUBLED PAST, or by looking at all those who offended me, or by looking at all those whom I offended.
I do get positive inspiration from looking solely at the teaching we got in PFAL (not the people) and how it still opens up God’s Word to us better than any of the splinter groups or the Big Stump.
Mike:One of the lucky skills I picked up from my very Catholic father was dodging inevitable corruptions that large institutions are prone to. He always sought out the rare RC deep thinkers, and learned to avoid the dark spots, like nuns and big-wig clergy.
T-Bone: Can you please clarify – was “my very Catholic father” referring to your Dad or to a Catholic priest? Or was your Dad a Catholic priest? Uhm…I think that’s against the rules – unless they’ve changed. Did you hear something about that? As far as how to avoid getting dark spots – I’d probably go with something like Aveeno Daily Moisturizing Oil.
Mike:Large institutions are like marble cake, and as TWI grew it had plenty of dark spots. I was pretty successful (like my dad) in avoiding them, but my luck started running out in the mid-80s.
T-Bone: Maybe life is like a box of marble cakes…uhm so I have to ask. Were you and your Catholic Priest/Dad running from the law? Or were you and your Catholic Priest/Dad in a gub’mint witness protection program?
= = = = = =
Mike:My most consistent theme in my posting here is that from PFAL there were many pure things put into written form. At that time we only absorbed a fraction of the material, and since that time we forgot a lot of what we did absorb.
T-Bone: I disagree – the most consistent theme in your posting has always been “defend wierwille and PFAL”…But I do agree somewhat with the latter part of your statement – at that time (when I “learned” how to put the kibosh on my cognitive skills) I only absorbed a fraction of the hogwash because I fell asleep at wierwille’s incessant blathering, and since that time I forgot a lot of what I did absorb – and thank God for a long and drawn out miracle !!!!
= = = = = = = = =
Mike:I would suggest that people who suffered from the wrong slices of the marble cake take a second, fresh look at the many pure PFAL things put into written form. A fresh look would mean dissociating oneself from the social darkness they experienced in the past.Understandably, this is not so easy for some people.
T-Bone: You seem to be having a tough time disassociating yourself from the theological nonsense and darkness of wierwille and PFAL…how long have you been coming to Grease Spot – and you STILL think wierwille and PFAL are peachy keen? …I suggest you take a second, fresh look at the false…empty claims of wierwille – they’re on the back of the PFAL green sign-up card. “Enables you to separate truth from error” – oh really? How come wierwille couldn’t do it? He led everyone to believe that PFAL was the fruit of his own hard work and due diligence. Where is the truth in that? wierwille did Not cite sources and did NOT give credit where credit is due – how is that not an error?
= = = = = = =
Mike:I NEVER GET POSITIVE INSPIRATION BY LOOKING AT MY TROUBLED PAST, or by looking at all those who offended me, or by looking at all those whom I offended.
T-Bone: I believe part of self-examination should be looking at our troubled past – even if it was only 30 minutes ago…as far as dealing with offenses – by me or others – it’s good to look for ways to connect – rather than ways to avoid connection…now that could be inspiring don’t you think?
= = = = = = = = = =
Mike: I do get positive inspiration from looking solely at the teaching we got in PFAL (not the people) and how it still opens up God’s Word to us better than any of the splinter groups or the Big Stump.
T-Bone: In many ways I think PFAL actually screws up God’s Word – and you’re probably right – wierwille / PFAL screwed us better than any of the splinter groups or the big dump of a rump.
Not lately, I know, but I did an abundance of that 15 years ago here.
Right now I doubt if you really want to hear them, but you could convince me otherwise.
Maybe I'll feel inspired to compile a list sometime.
Actually, you've done none of it of note the entire time you've been here. You've spent dozens of hours saying you had no time to do ANY of that here. You spent dozens of hours with vague promises that, if we did things your way, we'd see results- but we've pointed out repeatedly that you haven't given anyone ANY reason to think your methods yield anything useful. After that, you started over, and stayed vague.
A few moments here and there, you did make a few minor claims- like about David and Bathsheba- and those points were completely refuted. In fact, on that one, I not only refuted you, but at the time, posted a prediction that you'd make the exact same refuted claim 6 months later. Six months later TO THE DAY, you reposted the same refuted claim.
What you HAVE demonstrated is a facility to rewrite history in your own mind. You were completely refuted, and months later, you'd claim you refuted anything anyone else said. So, it should surprise nobody that you remember being clear, direct and specific when you actually were vague and coy virtually any time you were asked something. So, you may have done an abundance of that IN YOUR OWN MIND, but out here where the rest of us can see it and respond, no you did not. Then again, in your own mind, you can be always right, the better in any exchange, and so on. Out here, you risk getting refuted (again.)
And to add to your comment “if I were that interested, I'd try to source my review reading from the original books” I’d also recommend reading / thinking / questioning – to escape wierwille’s suffocating and manipulative convoluted theological box
I also meant to add, consider also some wider reading, though my response was specifically aimed at the suggestion of re-studying those PFAL books. Go to the source there; remove the corruptions inserted by a corrupt plagiariser.
Good post, T-Bone, about three ways of distinguishing fundamentalism.
15 hours ago, Mike said:
I NEVER GET POSITIVE INSPIRATION BY LOOKING AT MY TROUBLED PAST, or by looking at all those who offended me, or by looking at all those whom I offended.
There is a lot of positive inspiration to be gained by looking at one's troubled past in the right way, and I do think Mike recognises that. We can, if we look, see what a mess we were, and how knowing God has rescued us from that. And we can so very definitely use our own troubled pasts to empathise with those who are still living their "troubled pasts," and to show them there is a way out.
Perhaps we don't want to look at those who offended us (though there is learning there: why did they offend us? What was so offensive? Why was it offensive? Am I doing any of those same things, and thus offending others?) and there is a huge amount to be gained by looking at those whom oneself offended (why did I do that? Was it conscious or unconscious on my part? How can I avoid offending others - and thereby perhaps driving them away irreparably - and show empathy towards them?)
Anybody that's interested could consider looking at the "12 Steps" that Alcoholics Anon uses to help alcoholics make sense of their lives. There's a Christian version of this and several books on the subject. We had a teaching series in church over several weeks, based on this. It was excellent. Anyway, here's a quick link for anyone who's interested.
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WordWolf
I hate to be the one to break it to you, Mike, but..... you overrate your significance on this board. Things don't revolve around you, nor do we wish you'd suddenly start posting again when
Rocky
It won't work. Society has changed drastically since the 1970s. TWI is trying to come up with "new" ideas but said ideas are putting old wine in hopefully new wineskins... or new wine in old wineskins
Twinky
It was you who changed the topic, Mike. If you stayed on topic, you wouldn't drag everyone off into jumping on you. You have no idea what people are doing, but rest assured, offering "God's Wo
Rocky
Sure, it would be nice. But experience has shown that what you're doing so far to get there with him has not, does not, and because we (humans) can use that information to reasonably predict the future, will not get the job done.
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Bolshevik
*shrugs*
It's just an exercise. The tyranny of PFAL isn't on the internet.
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waysider
It's spiritual. You just need to S.I.T. more and believe harder.
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Rocky
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T-Bone
That’s some great points !
One of wierwille’s insidious mind-numbing tactics was encouraging followers to engage in “mental busy work” – an activity that keeps the brain cells preoccupied but has little value in itself. wierwille stressed followers merely absorb information without scrutinizing it. It was not only a diversion meant to take up “think-time” to thwart thoughtful analysis but also through repetition served to indoctrinate followers under the guise of “studying and reviewing the PFAL material”.
Bolshevik: “only The Class could explain The Class. Lack of understanding meant retake The Class” – true that! What’s
faster than a speeding bulletmore powerful than a locomotive- more complicated than a wheel within a wheel? It is “the tyranny of PFAL” – perhaps it’s more like “a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma”. That is from a line used by Winston Churchill to describe the intentions and interests of Russia in 1939. Churchill’s line has come to mean that which is so dense and secretive as to be totally indecipherable or impossible to foretell – to denote a person, a fact, a situation, etc., that is too difficult to make sense of. PFAL is like that - it is rife with logical fallacies, patchwork plagiarism, wierwille’s signature intuition, fundamentalism, spiritualism, and Gnosticism. So basically, the frame of thought behind PFAL is really wierwille’s own twisted ideology and narcissism. It is so dense with erroneous reasoning, inconsistencies, false assumptions, and pat answers that it falls way short of being a systematic and practical approach to anything.Though it is never stated outright in any literature of The Way International, the words of wierwille are considered by loyal followers to be on par with Scripture – in other words, whatever wierwille says about a passage has approximately equal authority as Scripture itself. I remember at PFAL ’77 – a live re-filming of the “original” PFAL class of 1967 – one of the master of ceremonies, a TWI-ordained clergyman came on stage to answer the question many of us were wondering “would this new PFAL 77 class replace the old 1967 PFAL class as THE introductory class when joining TWI?”. But the clergyman shot down that idea by simply stating “did the Apostle Paul need to re-write the book of Ephesians?” The switcheroo happens surreptitiously before the uncritical mind. The absolute authority of The Bible is usurped in a stealthy manner – under cover of the assumption by all, that wierwille was good at “rightly dividing The Word” AND per the mythology of wierwille being guided by God Himself (see my earlier post referencing Elena S. Whiteside’s authorized book on TWI – “The Way Living in Love” - click here
…hey good news - you can still buy it on Amazon - The Way: Living in Love on Amazon
…that’s assuming your “needs and wants are parallel”.
Grads of the class were encouraged to “make it their own” – but God forbid you deviated or contradicted anything wierwille taught. Thus, what grads thought and taught was merely parroting…regurgitating what wierwille said. This mechanical repetition was falsely assumed to be “thinking / living / doing / teaching / moving The Word”.
Waysider: “It's spiritual. You just need to S.I.T. more and believe harder” – true that too! One of wierwille’s methods of sidestepping any real issues folks had with the ministry’s extraordinary claims was to teach that we should not go by our five senses or worldly logic – that it was part of the spiritual battle... When I first got involved with TWI, being young and naïve I bought into all that – TWI’s ideas provided a means to rationalize away logic and reality…I think “successful” con artists have a real knack for embedding the process of self-deception into devoted followers.
Johnj: “It seems TWI is trying to revive the “
goryglory years.” Which means they will have to revive the lies. Any diehard wierwille-fan knows that…which also makes me wonder how good or great something is if you have to lie and generate a bunch of hype about it. You know, wierwille was a pathological liar – maybe that’s one of the intangible assets he bequeathed to TWI. I found an interesting article on Psychology Today:6 Reasons People Lie When They Don’t Need To - understanding the motivations of pathological liars.
Posted January 23, 2017 David J. Ley Ph.D.
“People may lie because they believe the lie is critically important, even though it may seem inconsequential.
Other reasons for lying include trying to control a situation or to avoid disappointing someone.
Most people usually tell the truth, and it may be helpful to try to understand the motivations behind why someone lies.
1. The lie does matter ... to them. The number one reason people lie when it just doesn’t matter is because they actually do think it matters. While everyone around them thinks it’s an inconsequential issue, the liar believes it is critically important. They may be putting undeserved emphasis or pressure on themselves, or on the issue, but you won’t know unless you ask something like, “It seems like this issue is really important to you — why?”
2. Telling the truth feels like giving up control. Often, people tell lies because they are trying to control a situation and exert influence toward getting the decisions or reactions they want. The truth can be “inconvenient” because it might not conform to their narrative.
3. They don’t want to disappoint you. It may not feel like it to you, but people who tell lie after lie are often worried about losing the respect of those around them. They want you to like them, be impressed, and value them. And they’re worried that the truth might lead you to reject or shame them.
4. Lies snowball. I remember a cartoon my kids watched years ago about how lies grow. We tell a little bitty lie, but then to cover that lie, we have to tell another one, then another, and another — each gets bigger and bigger. Finally, we’re arguing about the color of the sky, because to admit anything creates the potential of the entire house of cards tumbling. If a chronic liar admits to any single lie, they feel like they’re admitting to being a liar, and then you’ll have reason to distrust them.
5. It’s not a lie to them. When we are under pressure, our thinking about the big picture can be challenged. Our memory of things is actually quite unreliable: Multiple studies demonstrate that our memories are influenced by many things, that they change over time, and that they are essentially reconstructed each time we think about them. Often, repetitive liars feel so much pressure in the moment that their memory becomes simply unreliable. When they say something, it’s often because they genuinely believe, at that moment, that it is the truth. Their memory has been overwhelmed by stress, current events, and their desire to find a way to make this situation work. Sometimes, this can become so severe that the person almost seems to have created a complete alternate world in their head, one that conforms to their moment-by-moment beliefs and needs.
6. They want it to be true. Finally, the liar might want their lie to be true so badly that their desire and needs again overwhelm their instinct to tell the truth. “Be the change you want to see in the world,” Gandhi never actually said. But sometimes, liars hope that they can make something come true by saying it over and over, and by believing it as hard as they can. In today’s environment of “alternative facts,” it’s hard not to see this as somewhat justified.”
From: Psychology Today: 6 reasons people lie when they don’t have to
Johnj: “It seems TWI is trying to revive the “
goryglory years.” It plans to revive “the Rock” as “Young Adult Rock” Aug 12-14, 2022. They call it a “Christian music festival” for Foundational class grads ages 18-35. A few days after it, TWI plans to send out Way “Ambassadors.” The “Ambassadors of The Way Outreach Program” will replace both the original WOW and the Way Disciples outreach program, which sends an anemic 4 teams (approx.) per term/ year. They will serve Aug 21 to June 4, 2023. That’s a 9.5 month term vs. the 6 month disciple and 12 month WOW terms. They hope to have Ambassadors in 12 countries in which there are active Way Corps. How many people will they actually get?” I was a WOW in Washington DC 1975-76 - if memory serves me well, we were a branch of 28 WOWs …yeah those were the “glory days” alright. We may have had a greater number of WOWs – but the results of our outreach were anemic…classes were small made up of students from several Twigs – even outside of the DC area…Of course, the upcoming Ambassadors of The Way training will probably go heavy on not looking at numbers but at the spiritual impact of their outreach…oh yeah, I remember wierwille telling us because of our stand on the WOW field we prevented the Illuminati-wrong-seed-boys-one-world-government-commies-Marxist-Minstrels-spiritual-whatnots-and-devilish-odds-and-ends from taking over the country ! whew you’re welcome.
Edited by T-Boneremember the glory days of editing - whiteout, pizza, coca cola and a dictionary
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Ham
A personal thought- only God Almighty can revive the "glory years".. whatever they are. I personally would not even try to.
1. They were NOT glory years.
2. Usually they were not Glory Years, they were Stolen Years. Missed wealth, missed opportunity..
Something in the old testament comes to mind.
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Rocky
But if your job depended on a multi-million dollar nonprofit organization that employs who knows how many people these days, and the revenue was sharply/rapidly declining... you might be tempted to try.
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chockfull
Mike,
You call HQ all the time. You attended one limb meeting. Does this mean the way is letting you back in? Are you now again an active member? Have they permitted this?
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waysider
Are you holding your breath, waiting for an answer? That's bad for your health.
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Mike
I'm not even close to an active attendee; just an occasional visitor. A year can pass between visits.
I e-mail a few members a bunch. They are slowly turning back to the original PFAL and I am encouraging them there.
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waysider
Thank you for responding, Mike. Unfortunately, your response does not answer chockfull's questions.
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Mike
Ok, chockfull asked:
Does this mean the way is letting you back in?
Are you now again an active member?
Have they permitted this?
I thought my answer had implied answers of "No, No, and No."
Those are my overt answers.
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waysider
Thank you.
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chockfull
I’m sorry Mike. One of the hardest things ever is struggling with some kind of mental illness and having people show you pretend compassion to take advantage of you, then reject you yet again.
I’m not saying that is you. But I probably have at least 2 or 3 conditions that developed in conjunction with or as a response to a cult. People stigmatize this or say it’s proof of devil spirits but they did that in the 1880s with the plague too. It’s especially insidious in cases where the Way caused the condition and then is ostracizing the victim due to the condition.
and no re reading the collaterals for the 1500th time aren’t going to produce any different results than any other cargo cult type activity.
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cman
There are no steps through reading material to take, no ladder of manifestations to climb. There is character, a desire to know in humble courage. I have learned what it is not, that's for sure. The way and many other experiences have brought out the best and worst of me, can I see it now? A little better I think.
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Mike
*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*
I hear you. chockful.
And, I can sympathize with two thirds of your post.
One of the lucky skills I picked up from my very Catholic father was dodging inevitable corruptions that large institutions are prone to. He always sought out the rare RC deep thinkers, and learned to avoid the dark spots, like nuns and big-wig clergy.
Large institutions are like marble cake, and as TWI grew it had plenty of dark spots. I was pretty successful (like my dad) in avoiding them, but my luck started running out in the mid-80s.
My most consistent theme in my posting here is that from PFAL there were many pure things put into written form. At that time we only absorbed a fraction of the material, and since that time we forgot a lot of what we did absorb.
I would suggest that people who suffered from the wrong slices of the marble cake take a second, fresh look at the many pure PFAL things put into written form. A fresh look would mean dissociating oneself from the social darkness they experienced in the past. Understandably, this is not so easy for some people.
I NEVER GET POSITIVE INSPIRATION BY LOOKING AT MY TROUBLED PAST, or by looking at all those who offended me, or by looking at all those whom I offended.
Edited by MikeI do get positive inspiration from looking solely at the teaching we got in PFAL (not the people) and how it still opens up God’s Word to us better than any of the splinter groups or the Big Stump.
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cman
like what?
you always say that Mike, but never say what these pure things are
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Mike
Not lately, I know, but I did an abundance of that 15 years ago here.
Right now I doubt if you really want to hear them, but you could convince me otherwise.
Maybe I'll feel inspired to compile a list sometime.
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cman
yeah, I was here 15 years ago too, still you didn't post "from PFAL there were many pure things put into written form"
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Twinky
I think if I were that interested, I'd try to source my review reading from the original books. Those that were plagiarised and repackaged as "PFAL" and "RHST." The precursors of VPW's poor copies.
Original (source) material would include JE Stiles - The Gift of the Holy Spirit
EW Bullinger - The Companion Bible - for a lot of materials and comments, even "expanded usages."
Where's PFAL from? I can no longer remember what was plagiarised for that.
As to the "collaterals" (which is not what Mike includes), they're mostly pinched from other available sources.
Have a look at this, from John Juedes: www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/tw_documents.htm
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T-Bone
Good points, Twinky !
And to add to your comment “if I were that interested, I'd try to source my review reading from the original books” I’d also recommend reading / thinking / questioning – to escape wierwille’s suffocating and manipulative convoluted theological box…below are 3 very interesting books for those who believe the Bible is a lot more relevant than the fearmongering and gaslighting tactics that wierwille managed to wring out of the fundamentalism interpretation of the Bible:
Making Sense of the Bible by Adam Hamilton
Understanding the Bible by John A. Buehrens
Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism by John Shelby Spong
I think wierwille liked the polarizing effect of fundamentalism – it was another way of fostering an us-versus-them mentality. It’s we true believers versus those unbelievers – you know, those people who don’t think like wierwille…As much as I hate to admit it - as a cult-leader wierwille was a real smarty, fundamentalism was another ingenious way for him to tighten up the ranks and promote unity in the cult.
Fundamentalism is a strict, literal interpretation of the Bible. According to Alister McGrath (an Anglican priest, Professor of Science and Religion at the University of Oxford, theologian, intellectual historian, scientist, Christian apologist, and public intellectual) fundamentalism began in the late 19th and early 20th century within American Protestant circles - to defend the "fundamentals of belief" against the corrosive effects of liberalism within the very ranks of Protestantism.
Its outset has remained a counter-culture movement, using central doctrinal affirmations as a means of defining cultural boundaries. Certain major doctrines like the absolute literal authority of Scripture and the second coming of Christ - his premillennial return, became barriers to alienate secular culture and give fundamentalists a sense of identity and purpose. A siege mentality (a defensive or paranoid attitude based on the belief that others are hostile toward one) became characteristic of the movement.
Another interesting thing McGrath got into was how fundamentalism can be distinguished from evangelicalism by three general ideas:
1. Biblically, fundamentalism is totally hostile to the notion of biblical criticism in any form and is committed to a literal interpretation of Scripture. Evangelicalism however accepts the principle of sensible and trustworthy biblical criticism and recognizes the diversity of literary forms within Scripture.
2. Theologically, fundamentalism is narrowly committed to a set of doctrines – some of which evangelicalism regards as peripheral or even utterly irrelevant such as dispensationalism.
3. Sociologically, fundamentalism is a reactionary counter-cultural movement, with a tight criteria of membership. Evangelicalism is a cultural movement focused on relevance and has a loose basis for self-definition.
The element of irrationalism often associated with fundamentalism is lacking in evangelicalism which has produced significant writings in areas of the philosophy of religion and apologetics... My notes are from “Christian Theology: An Introduction” Second Edition by Alister E. McGrath c. 1994, 1997, Blackwell Publishers, pages 122 to 124.
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T-Bone
Mike: One of the lucky skills I picked up from my very Catholic father was dodging inevitable corruptions that large institutions are prone to. He always sought out the rare RC deep thinkers, and learned to avoid the dark spots, like nuns and big-wig clergy.
T-Bone: Can you please clarify – was “my very Catholic father” referring to your Dad or to a Catholic priest? Or was your Dad a Catholic priest? Uhm…I think that’s against the rules – unless they’ve changed. Did you hear something about that? As far as how to avoid getting dark spots – I’d probably go with something like Aveeno Daily Moisturizing Oil.
Mike: Large institutions are like marble cake, and as TWI grew it had plenty of dark spots. I was pretty successful (like my dad) in avoiding them, but my luck started running out in the mid-80s.
T-Bone: Maybe life is like a box of marble cakes…uhm so I have to ask. Were you and your Catholic Priest/Dad running from the law? Or were you and your Catholic Priest/Dad in a gub’mint witness protection program?
= = = = = =
Mike: My most consistent theme in my posting here is that from PFAL there were many pure things put into written form. At that time we only absorbed a fraction of the material, and since that time we forgot a lot of what we did absorb.
T-Bone: I disagree – the most consistent theme in your posting has always been “defend wierwille and PFAL”…But I do agree somewhat with the latter part of your statement – at that time (when I “learned” how to put the kibosh on my cognitive skills) I only absorbed a fraction of the hogwash because I fell asleep at wierwille’s incessant blathering, and since that time I forgot a lot of what I did absorb – and thank God for a long and drawn out miracle !!!!
= = = = = = = = =
Mike: I would suggest that people who suffered from the wrong slices of the marble cake take a second, fresh look at the many pure PFAL things put into written form. A fresh look would mean dissociating oneself from the social darkness they experienced in the past. Understandably, this is not so easy for some people.
T-Bone: You seem to be having a tough time disassociating yourself from the theological nonsense and darkness of wierwille and PFAL…how long have you been coming to Grease Spot – and you STILL think wierwille and PFAL are peachy keen? …I suggest you take a second, fresh look at the false…empty claims of wierwille – they’re on the back of the PFAL green sign-up card. “Enables you to separate truth from error” – oh really? How come wierwille couldn’t do it? He led everyone to believe that PFAL was the fruit of his own hard work and due diligence. Where is the truth in that? wierwille did Not cite sources and did NOT give credit where credit is due – how is that not an error?
= = = = = = =
Mike: I NEVER GET POSITIVE INSPIRATION BY LOOKING AT MY TROUBLED PAST, or by looking at all those who offended me, or by looking at all those whom I offended.
T-Bone: I believe part of self-examination should be looking at our troubled past – even if it was only 30 minutes ago…as far as dealing with offenses – by me or others – it’s good to look for ways to connect – rather than ways to avoid connection…now that could be inspiring don’t you think?
= = = = = = = = = =
Mike: I do get positive inspiration from looking solely at the teaching we got in PFAL (not the people) and how it still opens up God’s Word to us better than any of the splinter groups or the Big Stump.
T-Bone: In many ways I think PFAL actually screws up God’s Word – and you’re probably right – wierwille / PFAL screwed us better than any of the splinter groups or the big dump of a rump.
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WordWolf
Actually, you've done none of it of note the entire time you've been here. You've spent dozens of hours saying you had no time to do ANY of that here. You spent dozens of hours with vague promises that, if we did things your way, we'd see results- but we've pointed out repeatedly that you haven't given anyone ANY reason to think your methods yield anything useful. After that, you started over, and stayed vague.
A few moments here and there, you did make a few minor claims- like about David and Bathsheba- and those points were completely refuted. In fact, on that one, I not only refuted you, but at the time, posted a prediction that you'd make the exact same refuted claim 6 months later. Six months later TO THE DAY, you reposted the same refuted claim.
What you HAVE demonstrated is a facility to rewrite history in your own mind. You were completely refuted, and months later, you'd claim you refuted anything anyone else said. So, it should surprise nobody that you remember being clear, direct and specific when you actually were vague and coy virtually any time you were asked something. So, you may have done an abundance of that IN YOUR OWN MIND, but out here where the rest of us can see it and respond, no you did not. Then again, in your own mind, you can be always right, the better in any exchange, and so on. Out here, you risk getting refuted (again.)
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Twinky
I also meant to add, consider also some wider reading, though my response was specifically aimed at the suggestion of re-studying those PFAL books. Go to the source there; remove the corruptions inserted by a corrupt plagiariser.
Good post, T-Bone, about three ways of distinguishing fundamentalism.
There is a lot of positive inspiration to be gained by looking at one's troubled past in the right way, and I do think Mike recognises that. We can, if we look, see what a mess we were, and how knowing God has rescued us from that. And we can so very definitely use our own troubled pasts to empathise with those who are still living their "troubled pasts," and to show them there is a way out.
Perhaps we don't want to look at those who offended us (though there is learning there: why did they offend us? What was so offensive? Why was it offensive? Am I doing any of those same things, and thus offending others?) and there is a huge amount to be gained by looking at those whom oneself offended (why did I do that? Was it conscious or unconscious on my part? How can I avoid offending others - and thereby perhaps driving them away irreparably - and show empathy towards them?)
Anybody that's interested could consider looking at the "12 Steps" that Alcoholics Anon uses to help alcoholics make sense of their lives. There's a Christian version of this and several books on the subject. We had a teaching series in church over several weeks, based on this. It was excellent. Anyway, here's a quick link for anyone who's interested.
Celebrate Recovery's 12 Steps
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