So, they're trying what worked in the 1960s and 1970s in the US to increase numbers. That, more than anything, shows how utterly out of touch they are. Then again, the people at the top may just want to keep the lights on until they can squirrel away a nest egg and extract all the financial value they can out of twi, then split and not care if the doors shut or not.
That’s an interesting point, WordWolf…I think more than anything else why it worked in the 60s and 70s was because their beloved-revered-to-the-Nth-degree-cult-leader wierwille was alive and well…after all, TWI was a cult of personality and it revolved around wierwille…only thing is, TWI never transitioned to a new cult leader who had the same powerful charisma as wierwille…maybe TWI could have taken some tips from David M. of Scientology…just thinking in hindsight after wierwille passed away , knowing what I know now about cults and cult leaders – I think the ministry-wide despondency, angst, uneasiness, and even the mass exodus of so many way corps and clergy at that time was a dead giveaway that TWI was nothing more than a cult of personality.... When wierwille passed away, his larger than life charismatic influence that gave TWI its inspiration, vision, direction, vitality and strength was also gone... it was like being in a weird parallel universe but some things are a little screwed up...a vaguely familiar story but playing out differently in this world - almost as if Jesus had died - but never got up from the grave.
That’s an interesting point, WordWolf…I think more than anything else why it worked in the 60s and 70s was because their beloved-revered-to-the-Nth-degree-cult-leader wierwille was alive and well…after all, TWI was a cult of personality and it revolved around wierwille…only thing is, TWI never transitioned to a new cult leader who had the same powerful charisma as wierwille…maybe TWI could have taken some tips from David M. of Scientology…just thinking in hindsight after wierwille passed away , knowing what I know now about cults and cult leaders – I think the ministry-wide despondency, angst, uneasiness, and even the mass exodus of so many way corps and clergy at that time was a dead giveaway that TWI was nothing more than a cult of personality.... When wierwille passed away, his larger than life charismatic influence that gave TWI its inspiration, vision, direction, vitality and strength was also gone... it was like being in a weird parallel universe but some things are a little screwed up...a vaguely familiar story but playing out differently in this world - almost as if Jesus had died - but never got up from the grave.
Wierwille started writing his "Corps Letters" in 1977........BECAUSE he needed to establish another avenue of *control and guilt* from corps grads abandoning him and his grifting "ministry" (cough, cough). Lest we forget...... corps grads WERE SEEING THE RUSE and leaving in the mid to late 70s. Peter Wade split out in 1975 and started his own splinter group.
Anyone who wants to delve into the details in these GSC threads can see that "the wierwille mystique" was unraveling by 1977, 1978..... and twi began to initiate other in-house measures to keep dissenters away. Also, lots of good twig coordinators around the country were being pushed out by "newly-trained way corps" who came into those areas and strong-armed people, leaving destruction in their wake. The Way Ministry went thru a massive transformation, basically from 1975-1978, and was centralizing power and control at "headquarters." Soon, there was even suggested (mandated) Monthly "teaching themes" that were to be taught in each twig. Where did the **Christ-in-you** inspiration (in-spirit-action) go??????
Here is a link to some twi-history.......that none of us young bucks knew back in the day. This link gives insight into the summer school camps in the 1960s and some of the reasons, Peter J. Wade......wierwille's right-hand man......left.
Trying to go from or one extreme or another is not a good idea imho. To say or prove that the pfal/twi experience was totally bad or good, is a waste of time. There was good and bad, just like most anywhere. Not much different than any other religion or cult or organization.
As to the point of this thread, there were no good old days, or glory days, that are not any different than these days. There are still many people looking for answers that will be drawn to a good sounding bait and hook agenda.
Started with the green card then session 1, "you have to know what is available to get anything from god", this is false, a lie and not true. And another hook to get you thinking you needed to know more.
After 23 years of post-twi acknowledging how abusive, exploitive, dysfunctional and pathetic The Way International was and is ...... there is no way that I can use euphemisms regarding Wierwille's narcissism and pathologies to deceive others. The Way International was/is a cult, because wierwille was a lazy, plagiarist, predator and profiteer. The whole marketing scheme was "get butts in chairs for classes and big events and fleece their money thru guilt." Since PFAL '77..... big event after big event as the cult leader, wierwille, pontificates and rehashes B.G. Leonard's (and Bullinger's) material.
Wierwille was a fraudster. He talked big, but behinds the scenes the con was in full gear. Enablers stocked his motor coach with Drambuie and his aides, bodyguards, became procurers inviting select young corps girls to wierwille's lair, motor coach. Sick, twisted, destructive evil.
So, no.....I have NO euphemisms for wierwille's "leadership and ministry."
At this stage of the game......I assert that twi's directors and splinter group leaders RIDE THE COATTAILS OF WIERWILLE, because it's the *only game* that gives them access to gullible pfal-followers. In a galaxy far, far away......a generation of youth became mesmerized with a cult of personality. Like a fish caught on a line, the "believer" was reeled into the net. There was subliminal messaging throughout pfal...... once you hear "the Word" (wierwille's 33-hrs of pfal rehashing), DO NOT ALLOW anyone to ever talk you out of it. No matter that wierwille couldn't walk the spiritual walk..... but instead smoked like a chimney, a drunkard, a striker, a bully, kept pornography, a serial plagiarist and sexual predator.
Some people succumb to spiritual abuse and are institutionalized.
Some people see the ruse and break those chains to gain freedom.
.
Where do "euphemisms" come into this, not clear on what you mean by that.
If it was when I wrote "I hearnews of what they're doing and as kindly as I can put it - it sounds about right. I just don't expect much from them, and can't see why I would."...
I meant what I said. I think the factual truth is communicated completely in that phrase of "it sounds about right". It does, to me. There are a vast number of people who over the years have come through the Way and who deserve a civil engagement if possible. That's the way I live. I do talk to people about those years and events - (like most of the stuff you don't think the "young bucks" of an earlier era knew, I knew because VPW talked about many of those things, he talked quite a bit about those things when he came out to California the first couple times. I was close to Jim Doop who I spoke with a lot about what he was doing with the Way) - and when I do I inform my discussions today with that kind of information and insight. Others may disagree. Fine. I speak first for what I know first hand and try to be careful about what I sift through of everything else.
Now, while I do care about the people, I don't have a dog in the game there, no relatives or associates still involved in the Way in any capacity and if anyone there thinks badly of me, fine, I don't care about that - it just proves their lack of intelligence, far as I'm concerned. Anyone still there or involved with them counters and negates the weight and value of their opinion by that very involvement so it's kind of a wash - why would I get too concerned about the opinion of people I don't think highly of? Doesn't make sense. I know some people who are, they're happy and I respect their decision in certain cases because I think for them it provides a level of support they benefit from. And they know that while my resources are limited, they're only a call away from help if they needed it - something I don't extend to everyone or lightly when I do because I mean it.
Anyway, luceat lux tua!
Edited by socks Give this to your car wash professional and have an A1 day.
I think I saw that phenomenon some. But I'm talking about the point #1 which focused on the "...difference between...."
What I saw were grads who did not make the Word their own, meaning flash on the messages Paul as in the Scriptures. They did well with slogans and memes and some verbal memorizing, but they did not really get down to being familiar with all the material in the Scriptures.
T-Bone, you made other points with your simile, which I think is a no-no. At least it is in parables, where only one point is being made.
I disagree with your other point that characterizes the Word I was taught as processed food being dished out by mindless workers. Yes, there sere some of those types also, but I learned how to avoid them.
In my experience, I did not really trust what VPW taught until I could see it in my KJV. That went fast and easy with some topics, and slow and painful for some others. In the end I was a satisfied customers because God was glorified in my life, and I knew Jesus Christ as a big brother, and I was free from condemnation.
I understand that some missed out on these treasures.
Mike: “What I saw were grads who did not make the Word their own” what does that mean? What did you see that indicated to you that these grads did not make “The Word” their own? And can you be more specific and elaborate on what is “The Word”?
Mike: “They did well with slogans and memes and some verbal memorizing, but they did not really get down to being familiar with all the material in the Scriptures.” How did you know that? Were you their Twig coordinator? Did you test them on “all the material in the Scriptures” ?
Mike: “I disagree with your other point that characterizes the Word I was taught as processed food being dished out by mindless workers. Yes, there sere some of those types also, but I learned how to avoid them.” Just to be clear - I never characterized “The Word” that you were taught as processed food being dished out by mindless workers. That is a mischaracterization and exaggeration on your part…So you say you were aware of these mindless worker types but you learned how to avoid them – how did you know they were mindless workers and what did you do to avoid them? Are you talking about mindless workers in the way corps?
Also, I don’t think referring to “The Word” or any particular doctrine put forth by a teacher or pastor as “processed food” is that unusual. Processed food usually refers to any nutritious substance other than a raw agricultural commodity that has gone through some man-made procedure/preparation - food process covers a wide spectrum that ranges from basic technologies like freezing, cooking, milling to additives that promote shelf stability or increase palatability – and even “subtractives”, a process that takes something away – like in decaffeinated coffee…Matter of fact even in the PFAL class wierwille alludes to a similar idea when he talked about everyone divides the Word of God but not everyone rightly divides the Word of God – and then he goes into the keys to the interpretation of the Bible. Dividing the Word of God is a process.
I think the simple concept of “processed food” regarding teachings and studies from the Bible might be a suitable analogy to reflect the mind as an aggregate of interacting parts or components of the intellect – and that involves not only the teacher as producing/communicating the information but ultimately also the audience reading or hearing that information. “Mental process or mental function are terms often used interchangeably for all the things that individuals can do with their minds. These include perception, memory, thinking, volition, and emotion. Sometimes the term cognitive function is used instead” (from Wikipedia).
Considering that no one is perfect there is always the distinct possibility that there might be cognitive errors on either or both sides of the information/message – the sender and/or the recipient – if either or both have some misconceptions, fallacies, delusions, inaccuracies, mistakes, etc. However, wierwille supposedly circumvented the problem of human imperfections by claiming divine intervention.
On page 178 of “The Way Living in Love” by Elena S. Whiteside (co 1972, American Christian Press, Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 72-89132 ) wierwille stated “I was praying. And I told Father outright that He could have the whole thing, unless there were real genuine answers that I wouldn't ever have to back up on. And that's when He spoke to me audibly, just like I'm talking to you now. He said He would teach me the Word as it had not been known since the first century if I would teach it to others. Well, I nearly flew off my chair. I couldn't believe that God would talk to me.” And on page 209 of Whiteside’s book wierwille comments on the content of what he teaches: “Lots of the stuff I teach is not original. Putting it all together so that it fit – that was the original work. I learned wherever I could, and then worked that with the Scriptures. What was right on with the Scriptures, I kept; but what wasn’t, I dropped.”
* note: Just for the record - this was the big lie...all that stuff wierwille said in "The Way Living in Love".
but for those following at home I will explain the issue...I believe anyone who is NOT enamored with this myth of wierwille being taught by God should be able to see through his smoke and mirrors. Comparing wierwille’s body of work with that of say just E.W. Bullinger - - it becomes clear that wierwille was an unabashed plagiarist.
It is intriguing to note wierwille attempted to preemptively avoid the issue of pirating intellectual property by saying much of what he taught was nothing new, he simply pieced together what he learned from others and through his own due diligence of biblical research AND God’s guidance made it accurate in the process.
Now…just for grins let’s suspend criticism of wierwille’s flagrant plagiarism and examine his body of work from the premise of his one particular claim - that God spoke to him and would help him piece together what he had “learned” from others and with God’s guidance make it all accurate in the process.
If indeed he had God’s help then we should NOT find any errors, theological inconsistencies or any logical fallacies – in either the exact copying of another person’s material or in wierwille's supposedly “correcting" , “revising” …or in some way modifyingor “accurizing” another person’s material. In other words, the finished product of wierwille’s teachings should be a reflection of God’s perfection in thought and word.
So, let’s go a little deeper into the “processed food” of PFAL. Remember when wierwille got into the keys to the interpretation of the Bible - he starts out with II Peter 1:20, 21
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Now in Bullinger’s book “How to Enjoy the Bible” Bullinger says in regard to the phrase “of any private interpretation”, is that the little word “of” is genitive of origin – and is simply saying Scripture wasn’t CONCEIVED by anyone’s imagination or personal interpretation. Bullinger goes on from there to cover some basic hermeneutics – which is the study of the methodological principles of interpretation of the Bible that students and teachers of the Bible should follow. I believe Bullinger got that part right.
In PFAL however, wierwille muddied up II Peter 1:20 and said The Bible should not be privately interpretated – in other words, it’s a no-no to have or offer a personal interpretation or opinion……there is to be no “I think it means this”. wierwille goes on to say that if no private interpretation is allowed then “there is either no interpretation possible or the Bible must interpret itself”. If you’ve ever studied logical fallacies, then it shouldn’t surprise you that wierwille’s premise offers PFAL students a false dilemma - also referred to as false dichotomy – it is an informal fallacy based on a premise that erroneously limits what options are available.
Just pause for a moment and think about the absurd idea that “the Bible interprets itself”- what an affront that is to logic, linguistics, historians, sociologists, anthropologists, and philosophers – not to mention Bible scholars, translators, and textual researchers. We’re talking about a compilation of 66 different books written by 40 different authors over the course of an approximately 1500-year period, using basically 3 different languages, spanning a variety of cultural, political, and geographical settings. Needless to say, wierwille's idea that the Bible interprets itself is silly...laughable... ludicrous…
Bullinger promoted a methodological approach – whereas wierwille may have said he used a methodological approach in PFAL but observing him in live teachings or speaking extemporaneously he often revealed his incompetence in the biblical languages and many times didn’t even use the very keys to the interpretation of the Bible that he promoted in the PFAL class. Reflecting on all that now gives me the impression he had a shallow understanding of Bullinger’s ideas – as one who lip-syncs to a record…he could mimic but was not naturally familiar with anything since it was not derived from his own due diligence.
Seeing him fumble with some Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek word, or teach something on a passage by taking it completely out of context, or ignore some other fundamental principle of interpretation - or in so many other ways demonstrate his own incompetence – makes me think of an actor on some commercial saying “I’m not a real doctor but I play one on TV”. In other words, without a written script to follow he was at a loss for how to act/talk like a real Bible teacher – but since he “starred” in a few “productions” as “the beloved Doctor Wierwille” he could always fallback to some old scene he performed many times. ..during live teachings this was indeed very entertaining to watch - sometimes he’d offer no text evidence or logical explanation – and just seemed to simply pull an answer out of his a$$ - he’d say something like “Father showed me this” or “If Father wanted me to look into a word in a verse he’d make the word appear one inch high”…to sum it up – wierwille attempted to copy Bullinger’s work (regarding the keys to the interpretation of the Bible – which I believe Bullinger got right) – wierwille certainly talks up those keys like he’s some old pro bible scholar. ..So, wierwille screwed up something of Bullinger’s that actually had merit.
On the flip side – wierwille sometimes simply copied the errors of others – again with regard to Bullinger ( I won’t get into great detail here – since it was handled by Grease Spotters on many other threads) wierwille promoted Bullinger’s four crucified with Jesus. wierwille mangles Greek words, piecemeals texts completely out of context by yanking them out of one Gospel and inserting in another - and destroys the authenticity and integrity of four ancient documents (i.e. the four Gospels) – which were compiled from various eyewitnesses and sources to begin with – but somehow Bullinger and wierwille were able to compile - uhm – make that concoct an alternate version of the crucifixion scene. Bullinger and wierwille also assume that the Gospel writers were math-illiterate and didn’t understand the concept of four, since there is no mention of four criminals at the crucifixion scene in any of the Gospels’, even though the Gospel writers seemed perfectly capable of other mathematical challenges - like enumerating the number of days/nights Jesus would be in the grave - three ... or to mention their own number - twelve disciples – or mentioning Jesus being in the desert for forty days.
So, let’s reevaluate his body of work from the premise of his one particular claim - that God spoke to him and would help him piece together what he had “learned” from others and with God’s guidance make it all accurate in the process. Assuming that God Almighty is an infinite, perfect, omniscient, truthful, and rational being who is perfectly capable of clearly communicating any type of information to other rational beings - and given that wierwille's body of work contains numerous inaccuracies, contradictions, theological inconsistencies and logical fallacies - leads me to conclude wierwille made a false claim. God did NOT guide wierwille to produce a perfect body of work. wierwille must have lied – or if you want to give him the benefit of a doubt, he was living under serious delusions of grandeur. Maybe it’s both – he could have been a pathological liar and “suffered” from delusions of grandeur…I know you are a big fan of PFAL and wierwille. I tend to think your fandom is based on the self-generated hype of wierwille. Perhaps if you had gone through the way corps program and experienced what wierwille was like when he wasn’t putting on a show for the general public...when he let his guard down and was himself...you'd have seen the real wierwille and maybe you might think much less of him.
Anyway…moving on…
Mike: “In my experience, I did not really trust what VPW taught until I could see it in my KJV. That went fast and easy with some topics, and slow and painful for some others.” I must say, you did a lot better than I did – if we’re comparing just our experiences as TWI-followers. I swallowed the whole thing hook, line and sinker for most of my time in TWI - 1974 up to 1984 when I went into the way corps. Then my experience stepped behind the curtain - I got to be a part of “the show” – the inner workings – that’s the parts that are only known by the people who work on it.
My outlook began to change…I began to see contradictions – I saw how poorly the publicly stated intentions of TWI aligned with the true and simple Christian ideology expressed throughout the Bible …being only in the “general public” as a TWI-follower one is severely limited in perspective…you don’t ever get to see the hypocrisy of how top leadership treat and exploit leaders-in-training.
Mike, I don’t know if you’ve ever shared what programs you have participated in (like WOW or Way Corps ) and what responsibilities you’ve had (Twig coordinator, Branch coordinator, etc.) – if you don't mind sharing - that might give me a better understanding of your perspective.
I’ve experienced TWI from both sides – as an average TWI-follower for 10 years and then at the latter part as way corps for two years. And I must confess I have always been a bookworm and study bug. That means I liked reading books on the Bible by non-TWI authors - and would take note of the depth, clarity and logic of certain authors that were much more intellectually stimulating than the simplistic stuff of PFAL/wierwille…but I figured that was because I didn’t have the way corps training…by 1984 I was chomping at the bit to go whole hog – so I went in the way corps.
I intentionally said “ the vast difference of EXPERIENCES between your average TWI-follower and the way corps” for a good reason. Experience means hands-on contact with and observation of facts and events – a particular instance of PERSONALLY encountering or undergoing something… I think it is rather presumptuous of you to think your experiences and observations correlate to mine in the way corps program. You can correct me if I’m wrong – but my thinking is (using an analogy in my earlier post) you are a satisfied customer who prefers a certain brand of processed food (PFAL and anything else from wierwille) and I went from being a satisfied customer of wierwille’s brand of processed food to going in the way corps – now being a part of the supply chain / factory workers who get that “food” out to the public – we were the ones who really knew what goes into “the product” – which was ANYTHING wierwille taught and ONLY what wierwille taught - and we were thoroughly trained in the fine art of selling snake oil and to do whatever it takes to get people hooked on it – repetition of lies, fabrications, false claims, brow-beating, fearmongering and any other sales techniques/marketing strategies. That was called “moving The Word”.
Perhaps being on the outside of the inner workings of TWI for so long established some kind of a precedent in my mind that TWI was just like the church in the first century – it was all peachy keen and wierwille - with God’s help was teaching us “The Word as it had not been known since the first century”.
…but my experience in the way corps exposed a lot of incongruities - I had a strong sense of disillusionment derived from the failure of TWI / PFAL / wierwille / the way corps program to fulfill their declared goals – AND on top of that - my perception of inconsistencies between the actions of certain TWI-leaders and the ideals they supposedly represent…intellectually and spiritually I was very disappointed in the curriculum – it seems to me the whole thing wound up being a means of creating an idealized or somewhat worshipful idea of a leader – wierwille…in other words a cult of personality…
Recalling my time in residence, it was extremely laser-focused on knowing The Power For Abundant Living class material backwards and forwards. I am NOT exaggerating! During the three meals we had each day in the dining room, we were randomly called upon to give a five-minute teaching - right there on the spot – and immediately critiqued right after that. Even back then I was disturbed by one fact - that people who quoted PFAL material verbatim or with very little deviation from that, received the highest praise with little or no criticism... In preparation for doing our research LCM was pounding on the podium and bellowing out “Don’t try to reinvent the wheel – base your research paper on something from PFAL”…looking back now – do you know what all that tells me? The aim of the way corps program was to create little clones of wierwille… come to think of it, Mike maybe that sounds like something you would have been interested in since you’re a big fan of PFAL and wierwille…but as for me, I was really dissatisfied and frustrated. There was always such hype about the way corps program being lots of in-depth learning of the Bible and biblical principles – but it was just a wierwille-clone factory. What a letdown!
Mike: “In the end I was a satisfied customers because God was glorified in my life, and I knew Jesus Christ as a big brother, and I was free from condemnation. I understand that some missed out on these treasures.” How was God glorified in your life? What condemnation were you freed from? Knowing Jesus Christ as a big brother sounds wonderful. ..Just so you know in the way corps program, God and Jesus Christ didn’t get top billing…nope – but we were constantly reminded of wierwille being “our father in the word”. I am tempted to think you have some romanticized-idealized-nostalgic version of TWI / PFAL/ wierwille that is more like fool’s gold than any actual treasure of real value...perhaps you have invested so much in wierwille's delusion, it's too difficult for you to be honest and realize how much you were duped. The big challenge is to bite the bullet - and like everyone else who has left a harmful and controlling cult deal with the mourning process of your grief and loss.
"We deceive ourselves because we don’t have enough psychological strength to admit the truth and deal with the consequences that will follow." (clinical psychologist Cortney S. Warren Ph.D)
"Self-deception is a process of denying or rationalizing away the relevance, significance, or importance of opposing evidence and logical argument. Self-deception involves convincing oneself of a truth (or lack of truth) so that one does not reveal any self-knowledge of the deception." (from Wikipedia )
...I guess if you never got to peek behind the curtain and actually see all that went into the production of the great Oz wierwille's "ministry" ...if you've never seen what it takes to maintain the supply chain / factory workers - then you missed out on what it takes to promote the big lie - see previous * note: Just for the record - this was the big lie...all that stuff wierwille said in "The Way Living in Love".
Edited by T-Bone reviving the glorious days of editing at The Daily Planet...look up in the sky...it's a bird...it's a plane...it's a plain old bird.
Mike, I don’t know if you’ve ever shared what programs you have participated in (like WOW or Way Corps ) and what responsibilities you’ve had (Twig coordinator, Branch coordinator, etc.) – that might give me a better understanding of your perspective.
After my first PFAL exposure in 1971, I was soon a twig leader, branch AV guy, branch meeting room guy, then at HQ on staff for 2 years in the mid '70s, then twig leader in CA, then wow'82. Was not happy with much of the mega TWI in mid '80s, and pretty much quit TWI around 1988.
The glory years, for me, were the 1970s in NY, and the large numbers of new people learning how to SIT was utterly spectacular, compared to later decades. The class video and books perfectly built these early glory years. Early supervision from TWI was very helpful, but a decade later it interfered more than helped.
I was never in the Corps, and always deliberately opposed to joining, and often in disgust of it's attitudes. I thought it was mismanaged, and one of VPW's bigger mistakes.
twi hopes to have ambassadors in the 12 countries they have active way corps. they have a long history of "believing" for certain large numbers in one program or another. i was always careful to ignore the "believing" numbers they published beforehand in the way magazine, and look at the actual numbers after an event (they didn't often put actual numbers in, but you could guess by looking at group photos). No doubt a few corps pad the numbers in some way when they pass them uphill. "Believing" often means living in fairy land. twi still has an inflated self image, still following vpw's narcissistic example
they seem to be heavily promoting gunnison as a destination, mostly via various "camps." it keeps money flowing in
I expect the "Christian music" at the young rock will be as regimented and programmed as anything way productions does. it seems to me everybody at twi dresses, walks and talks alike, in suits and dresses. kind of like the Agents in suits in the matrix
from T-bone/ Mike: "The aim of the way corps program was to create little clones of wierwille… come to think of it, Mike maybe that sounds like something you would have been interested in since you’re a big fan of PFAL and wierwille…but as for me, I was really dissatisfied and frustrated. There was always such hype about the way corps program being lots of in-depth learning of the Bible and biblical principles – but it was just a wierwille-clone factory. What a letdown! "
This is mostly true- people were supposed to think, dress, teach like vpw. Clones. With one exception- people were supposed to worship him, not want people to worship them (as vpw did). But the irony is that many upper level leaders DID become completely like vpw. This came out after vp died, when many of them wanted to be "the man of God" (not necessarily using that title), acting in the power of holy spirit. Hence, splinter groups each with a clone of vpw at the head, scrambling for followers, claiming they're different from craig & twi - while producing clones of pfal and the way tree.
After my first PFAL exposure in 1971, I was soon a twig leader, branch AV guy, branch meeting room guy, then at HQ on staff for 2 years in the mid '70s, then twig leader in CA, then wow'82. Was not happy with much of the mega TWI in mid '80s, and pretty much quit TWI around 1988.
The glory years, for me, were the 1970s in NY, and the large numbers of new people learning how to SIT was utterly spectacular, compared to later decades. The class video and books perfectly built these early glory years. Early supervision from TWI was very helpful, but a decade later it interfered more than helped.
I was never in the Corps, and always deliberately opposed to joining, and often in disgust of it's attitudes. I thought it was mismanaged, and one of VPW's bigger mistakes.
Mike: “I was never in the Corps, and always deliberately opposed to joining, and often in disgust of it's attitudes.I thought it was mismanaged, and one of VPW's bigger mistakes.” Believe it or not, I’m in agreement with you on that…and I tend to think wierwille probably made A LOT OF BLUNDERS in thought, word, and deed – and shame on all of us who enabled him, facilitated his blunderous directives and heaped upon him googobs of respect and admiration.
The fact that you were smart enough to sense there was something amiss makes me think of I Thessalonians 5:21 "buttest everything; hold fast what is good" – and what you said in a previous post “In my experience, I did not really trust what VPW taught until I could see it in my KJV”…and it bears repeating what I said to you in response, because it relates to what you said here – I said “you did a lot better than I did – if we’re comparing just our experiences as TWI-followers. I swallowed the whole thing hook, line and sinker for most of my time in TWI - 1974 up to 1984 when I went into the way corps. Then my experience stepped behind the curtain - I got to be a part of “the show” – the inner workings – that’s the parts that are only known by the people who work on it.”
For me it took going into the way corps to witness firsthand a lot of incongruities -the failure ofTWI / PFAL / wierwille / the way corps program to fulfill their declared goals was an ever-growing blister of disappointment…and to see the inconsistencies between the actions of wierwille / LCM / corps coordinators and the ideals they supposedly represent.
I think it’s difficult for some TWI-followers who love God and enjoy reading the Bible to be able to stand back and recognize a counterfeit leader – and to deny their existence is being naïve – since they are clearly pointed out in the Bible:
The harsh, brutal and exploitative shepherds ofEzekiel 34
Well…enough about me and my reasons for leaving TWI. I can sum it up with my own biggest mistake – I was looking for all of those wonderful things promised in PFAL, other classes, WOW program and the way corps program, when I should have seen the glaringly obvious signs of a cult-leader like wierwille.
Edited by T-Bone edited with you the viewer in mind
I don't know how anyone could come up with what VPW came up with by reading the KJV. I don't know how many times I asked, at age 11, where did this come from? I don't see the connection? . . . the response was always "take The Class, take The Class". Those who took the class decades ago couldn't explain anything. Biblical keys couldn't unlock new research because they couldn't unlock an open door. . . . only The Class could explain The Class. Lack of understanding meant retake The Class.
VPW himself said he didn't come up with his interpretation until sniffing fumes off the gas pumps, voices and all. Then he jotted down some notes off someone else's works . . .
Reading the Bible in TWI is the same as interpretation of tongues. You were told prior what to think. You acted and thought and spoke according to someone else's dictates.
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WordWolf
I hate to be the one to break it to you, Mike, but..... you overrate your significance on this board. Things don't revolve around you, nor do we wish you'd suddenly start posting again when
Rocky
It won't work. Society has changed drastically since the 1970s. TWI is trying to come up with "new" ideas but said ideas are putting old wine in hopefully new wineskins... or new wine in old wineskins
Twinky
It was you who changed the topic, Mike. If you stayed on topic, you wouldn't drag everyone off into jumping on you. You have no idea what people are doing, but rest assured, offering "God's Wo
T-Bone
That’s an interesting point, WordWolf…I think more than anything else why it worked in the 60s and 70s was because their beloved-revered-to-the-Nth-degree-cult-leader wierwille was alive and well…after all, TWI was a cult of personality and it revolved around wierwille…only thing is, TWI never transitioned to a new cult leader who had the same powerful charisma as wierwille…maybe TWI could have taken some tips from David M. of Scientology…just thinking in hindsight after wierwille passed away , knowing what I know now about cults and cult leaders – I think the ministry-wide despondency, angst, uneasiness, and even the mass exodus of so many way corps and clergy at that time was a dead giveaway that TWI was nothing more than a cult of personality.... When wierwille passed away, his larger than life charismatic influence that gave TWI its inspiration, vision, direction, vitality and strength was also gone... it was like being in a weird parallel universe but some things are a little screwed up...a vaguely familiar story but playing out differently in this world - almost as if Jesus had died - but never got up from the grave.
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Bolshevik
Was I gaslighting you?
Do you have some objective evidence you were helped? Because you weren't.
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Mike
Do you have some subjective evidence that I was not helped?
Of course, you do not.
I have evidence I was helped, and I cherish it.
To the degree you would cherish it, I will tell you.
For someone to tell me I don't know what happened in my life
and what I think is invalid
is pretty much the definition of gaslighting,
is it not?
I get the feeling you are not able to observe your own behavior here.
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Bolshevik
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Mike
That grammar looks to me you are saying:
"Do you have some objective evidence you were helped? [implied: No] Because you weren't [helped].
Did I rightly divide what you wrote?
I was helped, and A LOT!
I have some of the proof in the wide margins of my KJV.
But this is not a proof to you when I say I was helped. It is testimony, though.
I testify that I was helped 60 years ago by PFAL and I continue to pass that help on to others.
Proving that to you is not a high priority of mine. You might change my mind. How hungry for help are you right now?
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Bolshevik
If you're going with testimony you're still not being specific. "I got really blessed and learned a lot" - meaningless jargon
You have said nothing other than you experienced a Jedi mind trick. You were not helped. You were told you were helped.
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Mike
Sure feels like pure gaslighting to me from you.
I don't know what I experienced, but you know better.
I don't know what I still use today, but you know better.
Were you in the Corps?
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Bolshevik
I'm flatly calling you on your bluff. Your claim is simply untrue.
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skyrider
Wierwille started writing his "Corps Letters" in 1977........BECAUSE he needed to establish another avenue of *control and guilt* from corps grads abandoning him and his grifting "ministry" (cough, cough). Lest we forget...... corps grads WERE SEEING THE RUSE and leaving in the mid to late 70s. Peter Wade split out in 1975 and started his own splinter group.
Anyone who wants to delve into the details in these GSC threads can see that "the wierwille mystique" was unraveling by 1977, 1978..... and twi began to initiate other in-house measures to keep dissenters away. Also, lots of good twig coordinators around the country were being pushed out by "newly-trained way corps" who came into those areas and strong-armed people, leaving destruction in their wake. The Way Ministry went thru a massive transformation, basically from 1975-1978, and was centralizing power and control at "headquarters." Soon, there was even suggested (mandated) Monthly "teaching themes" that were to be taught in each twig. Where did the **Christ-in-you** inspiration (in-spirit-action) go??????
Anywho.......lots of things, folks.
Read wierwille's Corps Letters ..... Wierwille's Corps Letters
P.S. This file is mislabeled. These corps letters are NOT the same as "Corps Household NEWSLETTERS."
.
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Mike
Well, it's been fun, but I think I hear my mother calling me.
Maybe we can play word games again sometime.
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Bolshevik
April 25, 1979
I'm no expert . . . but my opinion of VPW's description of the 'lock box' practice is a form of dissociation.
https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/dissociation-overview
Dissociation comes up in certain . . . um, contexts
Edited by Bolshevikdissociative spelling disorder
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skyrider
Speaking of the "glory days" in twi.....
Here is a link to some twi-history.......that none of us young bucks knew back in the day. This link gives insight into the summer school camps in the 1960s and some of the reasons, Peter J. Wade......wierwille's right-hand man......left.
A couple of questions about vpw
.
Edited by skyridertypo
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cman
Trying to go from or one extreme or another is not a good idea imho. To say or prove that the pfal/twi experience was totally bad or good, is a waste of time. There was good and bad, just like most anywhere. Not much different than any other religion or cult or organization.
As to the point of this thread, there were no good old days, or glory days, that are not any different than these days. There are still many people looking for answers that will be drawn to a good sounding bait and hook agenda.
Started with the green card then session 1, "you have to know what is available to get anything from god", this is false, a lie and not true. And another hook to get you thinking you needed to know more.
Edited by cmanadded text
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socks
Where do "euphemisms" come into this, not clear on what you mean by that.
If it was when I wrote "I hear news of what they're doing and as kindly as I can put it - it sounds about right. I just don't expect much from them, and can't see why I would."...
I meant what I said. I think the factual truth is communicated completely in that phrase of "it sounds about right". It does, to me. There are a vast number of people who over the years have come through the Way and who deserve a civil engagement if possible. That's the way I live. I do talk to people about those years and events - (like most of the stuff you don't think the "young bucks" of an earlier era knew, I knew because VPW talked about many of those things, he talked quite a bit about those things when he came out to California the first couple times. I was close to Jim Doop who I spoke with a lot about what he was doing with the Way) - and when I do I inform my discussions today with that kind of information and insight. Others may disagree. Fine. I speak first for what I know first hand and try to be careful about what I sift through of everything else.
Now, while I do care about the people, I don't have a dog in the game there, no relatives or associates still involved in the Way in any capacity and if anyone there thinks badly of me, fine, I don't care about that - it just proves their lack of intelligence, far as I'm concerned. Anyone still there or involved with them counters and negates the weight and value of their opinion by that very involvement so it's kind of a wash - why would I get too concerned about the opinion of people I don't think highly of? Doesn't make sense. I know some people who are, they're happy and I respect their decision in certain cases because I think for them it provides a level of support they benefit from. And they know that while my resources are limited, they're only a call away from help if they needed it - something I don't extend to everyone or lightly when I do because I mean it.
Anyway, luceat lux tua!
Edited by socksGive this to your car wash professional and have an A1 day.
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T-Bone
Mike: “What I saw were grads who did not make the Word their own” what does that mean? What did you see that indicated to you that these grads did not make “The Word” their own? And can you be more specific and elaborate on what is “The Word”?
Mike: “They did well with slogans and memes and some verbal memorizing, but they did not really get down to being familiar with all the material in the Scriptures.” How did you know that? Were you their Twig coordinator? Did you test them on “all the material in the Scriptures” ?
Mike: “I disagree with your other point that characterizes the Word I was taught as processed food being dished out by mindless workers. Yes, there sere some of those types also, but I learned how to avoid them.” Just to be clear - I never characterized “The Word” that you were taught as processed food being dished out by mindless workers. That is a mischaracterization and exaggeration on your part…So you say you were aware of these mindless worker types but you learned how to avoid them – how did you know they were mindless workers and what did you do to avoid them? Are you talking about mindless workers in the way corps?
Also, I don’t think referring to “The Word” or any particular doctrine put forth by a teacher or pastor as “processed food” is that unusual. Processed food usually refers to any nutritious substance other than a raw agricultural commodity that has gone through some man-made procedure/preparation - food process covers a wide spectrum that ranges from basic technologies like freezing, cooking, milling to additives that promote shelf stability or increase palatability – and even “subtractives”, a process that takes something away – like in decaffeinated coffee…Matter of fact even in the PFAL class wierwille alludes to a similar idea when he talked about everyone divides the Word of God but not everyone rightly divides the Word of God – and then he goes into the keys to the interpretation of the Bible. Dividing the Word of God is a process.
I think the simple concept of “processed food” regarding teachings and studies from the Bible might be a suitable analogy to reflect the mind as an aggregate of interacting parts or components of the intellect – and that involves not only the teacher as producing/communicating the information but ultimately also the audience reading or hearing that information. “Mental process or mental function are terms often used interchangeably for all the things that individuals can do with their minds. These include perception, memory, thinking, volition, and emotion. Sometimes the term cognitive function is used instead” (from Wikipedia).
Considering that no one is perfect there is always the distinct possibility that there might be cognitive errors on either or both sides of the information/message – the sender and/or the recipient – if either or both have some misconceptions, fallacies, delusions, inaccuracies, mistakes, etc. However, wierwille supposedly circumvented the problem of human imperfections by claiming divine intervention.
On page 178 of “The Way Living in Love” by Elena S. Whiteside (co 1972, American Christian Press, Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 72-89132 ) wierwille stated “I was praying. And I told Father outright that He could have the whole thing, unless there were real genuine answers that I wouldn't ever have to back up on. And that's when He spoke to me audibly, just like I'm talking to you now. He said He would teach me the Word as it had not been known since the first century if I would teach it to others. Well, I nearly flew off my chair. I couldn't believe that God would talk to me.” And on page 209 of Whiteside’s book wierwille comments on the content of what he teaches: “Lots of the stuff I teach is not original. Putting it all together so that it fit – that was the original work. I learned wherever I could, and then worked that with the Scriptures. What was right on with the Scriptures, I kept; but what wasn’t, I dropped.”
* note: Just for the record - this was the big lie...all that stuff wierwille said in "The Way Living in Love".
but for those following at home I will explain the issue...I believe anyone who is NOT enamored with this myth of wierwille being taught by God should be able to see through his smoke and mirrors. Comparing wierwille’s body of work with that of say just E.W. Bullinger - - it becomes clear that wierwille was an unabashed plagiarist.
It is intriguing to note wierwille attempted to preemptively avoid the issue of pirating intellectual property by saying much of what he taught was nothing new, he simply pieced together what he learned from others and through his own due diligence of biblical research AND God’s guidance made it accurate in the process.
Now…just for grins let’s suspend criticism of wierwille’s flagrant plagiarism and examine his body of work from the premise of his one particular claim - that God spoke to him and would help him piece together what he had “learned” from others and with God’s guidance make it all accurate in the process.
If indeed he had God’s help then we should NOT find any errors, theological inconsistencies or any logical fallacies – in either the exact copying of another person’s material or in wierwille's supposedly “correcting" , “revising” …or in some way modifying or “accurizing” another person’s material. In other words, the finished product of wierwille’s teachings should be a reflection of God’s perfection in thought and word.
So, let’s go a little deeper into the “processed food” of PFAL. Remember when wierwille got into the keys to the interpretation of the Bible - he starts out with II Peter 1:20, 21
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Now in Bullinger’s book “How to Enjoy the Bible” Bullinger says in regard to the phrase “of any private interpretation”, is that the little word “of” is genitive of origin – and is simply saying Scripture wasn’t CONCEIVED by anyone’s imagination or personal interpretation. Bullinger goes on from there to cover some basic hermeneutics – which is the study of the methodological principles of interpretation of the Bible that students and teachers of the Bible should follow. I believe Bullinger got that part right.
In PFAL however, wierwille muddied up II Peter 1:20 and said The Bible should not be privately interpretated – in other words, it’s a no-no to have or offer a personal interpretation or opinion……there is to be no “I think it means this”. wierwille goes on to say that if no private interpretation is allowed then “there is either no interpretation possible or the Bible must interpret itself”. If you’ve ever studied logical fallacies, then it shouldn’t surprise you that wierwille’s premise offers PFAL students a false dilemma - also referred to as false dichotomy – it is an informal fallacy based on a premise that erroneously limits what options are available.
Just pause for a moment and think about the absurd idea that “the Bible interprets itself”- what an affront that is to logic, linguistics, historians, sociologists, anthropologists, and philosophers – not to mention Bible scholars, translators, and textual researchers. We’re talking about a compilation of 66 different books written by 40 different authors over the course of an approximately 1500-year period, using basically 3 different languages, spanning a variety of cultural, political, and geographical settings. Needless to say, wierwille's idea that the Bible interprets itself is silly...laughable... ludicrous…
Bullinger promoted a methodological approach – whereas wierwille may have said he used a methodological approach in PFAL but observing him in live teachings or speaking extemporaneously he often revealed his incompetence in the biblical languages and many times didn’t even use the very keys to the interpretation of the Bible that he promoted in the PFAL class. Reflecting on all that now gives me the impression he had a shallow understanding of Bullinger’s ideas – as one who lip-syncs to a record…he could mimic but was not naturally familiar with anything since it was not derived from his own due diligence.
Seeing him fumble with some Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek word, or teach something on a passage by taking it completely out of context, or ignore some other fundamental principle of interpretation - or in so many other ways demonstrate his own incompetence – makes me think of an actor on some commercial saying “I’m not a real doctor but I play one on TV”. In other words, without a written script to follow he was at a loss for how to act/talk like a real Bible teacher – but since he “starred” in a few “productions” as “the beloved Doctor Wierwille” he could always fallback to some old scene he performed many times. ..during live teachings this was indeed very entertaining to watch - sometimes he’d offer no text evidence or logical explanation – and just seemed to simply pull an answer out of his a$$ - he’d say something like “Father showed me this” or “If Father wanted me to look into a word in a verse he’d make the word appear one inch high”…to sum it up – wierwille attempted to copy Bullinger’s work (regarding the keys to the interpretation of the Bible – which I believe Bullinger got right) – wierwille certainly talks up those keys like he’s some old pro bible scholar. ..So, wierwille screwed up something of Bullinger’s that actually had merit.
On the flip side – wierwille sometimes simply copied the errors of others – again with regard to Bullinger ( I won’t get into great detail here – since it was handled by Grease Spotters on many other threads) wierwille promoted Bullinger’s four crucified with Jesus. wierwille mangles Greek words, piecemeals texts completely out of context by yanking them out of one Gospel and inserting in another - and destroys the authenticity and integrity of four ancient documents (i.e. the four Gospels) – which were compiled from various eyewitnesses and sources to begin with – but somehow Bullinger and wierwille were able
to compile- uhm – make that concoct an alternate version of the crucifixion scene. Bullinger and wierwille also assume that the Gospel writers were math-illiterate and didn’t understand the concept of four, since there is no mention of four criminals at the crucifixion scene in any of the Gospels’, even though the Gospel writers seemed perfectly capable of other mathematical challenges - like enumerating the number of days/nights Jesus would be in the grave - three ... or to mention their own number - twelve disciples – or mentioning Jesus being in the desert for forty days.So, let’s reevaluate his body of work from the premise of his one particular claim - that God spoke to him and would help him piece together what he had “learned” from others and with God’s guidance make it all accurate in the process. Assuming that God Almighty is an infinite, perfect, omniscient, truthful, and rational being who is perfectly capable of clearly communicating any type of information to other rational beings - and given that wierwille's body of work contains numerous inaccuracies, contradictions, theological inconsistencies and logical fallacies - leads me to conclude wierwille made a false claim. God did NOT guide wierwille to produce a perfect body of work. wierwille must have lied – or if you want to give him the benefit of a doubt, he was living under serious delusions of grandeur. Maybe it’s both – he could have been a pathological liar and “suffered” from delusions of grandeur…I know you are a big fan of PFAL and wierwille. I tend to think your fandom is based on the self-generated hype of wierwille. Perhaps if you had gone through the way corps program and experienced what wierwille was like when he wasn’t putting on a show for the general public...when he let his guard down and was himself...you'd have seen the real wierwille and maybe you might think much less of him.
Anyway…moving on…
Mike: “In my experience, I did not really trust what VPW taught until I could see it in my KJV. That went fast and easy with some topics, and slow and painful for some others.” I must say, you did a lot better than I did – if we’re comparing just our experiences as TWI-followers. I swallowed the whole thing hook, line and sinker for most of my time in TWI - 1974 up to 1984 when I went into the way corps. Then my experience stepped behind the curtain - I got to be a part of “the show” – the inner workings – that’s the parts that are only known by the people who work on it.
My outlook began to change…I began to see contradictions – I saw how poorly the publicly stated intentions of TWI aligned with the true and simple Christian ideology expressed throughout the Bible …being only in the “general public” as a TWI-follower one is severely limited in perspective…you don’t ever get to see the hypocrisy of how top leadership treat and exploit leaders-in-training.
Mike, I don’t know if you’ve ever shared what programs you have participated in (like WOW or Way Corps ) and what responsibilities you’ve had (Twig coordinator, Branch coordinator, etc.) – if you don't mind sharing - that might give me a better understanding of your perspective.
I’ve experienced TWI from both sides – as an average TWI-follower for 10 years and then at the latter part as way corps for two years. And I must confess I have always been a bookworm and study bug. That means I liked reading books on the Bible by non-TWI authors - and would take note of the depth, clarity and logic of certain authors that were much more intellectually stimulating than the simplistic stuff of PFAL/wierwille…but I figured that was because I didn’t have the way corps training…by 1984 I was chomping at the bit to go whole hog – so I went in the way corps.
I intentionally said “ the vast difference of EXPERIENCES between your average TWI-follower and the way corps” for a good reason. Experience means hands-on contact with and observation of facts and events – a particular instance of PERSONALLY encountering or undergoing something… I think it is rather presumptuous of you to think your experiences and observations correlate to mine in the way corps program. You can correct me if I’m wrong – but my thinking is (using an analogy in my earlier post) you are a satisfied customer who prefers a certain brand of processed food (PFAL and anything else from wierwille) and I went from being a satisfied customer of wierwille’s brand of processed food to going in the way corps – now being a part of the supply chain / factory workers who get that “food” out to the public – we were the ones who really knew what goes into “the product” – which was ANYTHING wierwille taught and ONLY what wierwille taught - and we were thoroughly trained in the fine art of selling snake oil and to do whatever it takes to get people hooked on it – repetition of lies, fabrications, false claims, brow-beating, fearmongering and any other sales techniques/marketing strategies. That was called “moving The Word”.
Perhaps being on the outside of the inner workings of TWI for so long established some kind of a precedent in my mind that TWI was just like the church in the first century – it was all peachy keen and wierwille - with God’s help was teaching us “The Word as it had not been known since the first century”.
…but my experience in the way corps exposed a lot of incongruities - I had a strong sense of disillusionment derived from the failure of TWI / PFAL / wierwille / the way corps program to fulfill their declared goals – AND on top of that - my perception of inconsistencies between the actions of certain TWI-leaders and the ideals they supposedly represent…intellectually and spiritually I was very disappointed in the curriculum – it seems to me the whole thing wound up being a means of creating an idealized or somewhat worshipful idea of a leader – wierwille…in other words a cult of personality…
Recalling my time in residence, it was extremely laser-focused on knowing The Power For Abundant Living class material backwards and forwards. I am NOT exaggerating! During the three meals we had each day in the dining room, we were randomly called upon to give a five-minute teaching - right there on the spot – and immediately critiqued right after that. Even back then I was disturbed by one fact - that people who quoted PFAL material verbatim or with very little deviation from that, received the highest praise with little or no criticism... In preparation for doing our research LCM was pounding on the podium and bellowing out “Don’t try to reinvent the wheel – base your research paper on something from PFAL”…looking back now – do you know what all that tells me? The aim of the way corps program was to create little clones of wierwille… come to think of it, Mike maybe that sounds like something you would have been interested in since you’re a big fan of PFAL and wierwille…but as for me, I was really dissatisfied and frustrated. There was always such hype about the way corps program being lots of in-depth learning of the Bible and biblical principles – but it was just a wierwille-clone factory. What a letdown!
Mike: “In the end I was a satisfied customers because God was glorified in my life, and I knew Jesus Christ as a big brother, and I was free from condemnation. I understand that some missed out on these treasures.” How was God glorified in your life? What condemnation were you freed from? Knowing Jesus Christ as a big brother sounds wonderful. ..Just so you know in the way corps program, God and Jesus Christ didn’t get top billing…nope – but we were constantly reminded of wierwille being “our father in the word”. I am tempted to think you have some romanticized-idealized-nostalgic version of TWI / PFAL/ wierwille that is more like fool’s gold than any actual treasure of real value...perhaps you have invested so much in wierwille's delusion, it's too difficult for you to be honest and realize how much you were duped. The big challenge is to bite the bullet - and like everyone else who has left a harmful and controlling cult deal with the mourning process of your grief and loss.
"We deceive ourselves because we don’t have enough psychological strength to admit the truth and deal with the consequences that will follow." (clinical psychologist Cortney S. Warren Ph.D)
"Self-deception is a process of denying or rationalizing away the relevance, significance, or importance of opposing evidence and logical argument. Self-deception involves convincing oneself of a truth (or lack of truth) so that one does not reveal any self-knowledge of the deception." (from Wikipedia )
...I guess if you never got to peek behind the curtain and actually see all that went into the production of
Edited by T-Bonethe great Ozwierwille's "ministry" ...if you've never seen what it takes to maintain the supply chain / factory workers - then you missed out on what it takes to promote the big lie - see previous * note: Just for the record - this was the big lie...all that stuff wierwille said in "The Way Living in Love".reviving the glorious days of editing at The Daily Planet...look up in the sky...it's a bird...it's a plane...it's a plain old bird.
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Rocky
Let your light shine!
Btw, Socks, I didn't read Skyrider's comments as critical of yours.
Also, (not to or about Socks) the bickering betwixt Bolshevik and Mike is noise easily scrolled past.
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Mike
After my first PFAL exposure in 1971, I was soon a twig leader, branch AV guy, branch meeting room guy, then at HQ on staff for 2 years in the mid '70s, then twig leader in CA, then wow'82. Was not happy with much of the mega TWI in mid '80s, and pretty much quit TWI around 1988.
The glory years, for me, were the 1970s in NY, and the large numbers of new people learning how to SIT was utterly spectacular, compared to later decades. The class video and books perfectly built these early glory years. Early supervision from TWI was very helpful, but a decade later it interfered more than helped.
Edited by MikeI was never in the Corps, and always deliberately opposed to joining, and often in disgust of it's attitudes. I thought it was mismanaged, and one of VPW's bigger mistakes.
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Twinky
Interesting! Where do you think those "attitudes" came from? Who was in charge when you were working at HQ? (Hint: initials are VPW.)
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waysider
Me: How did your involvement with TWI help you, Mike?
Mike: I went to Catholic School.
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Bolshevik
Do you know how Mike was helped?
Because there are folks in TWI telling me the same thing, with just as little detail.
Would be nice to get under that.
Edited by Bolshevikdetails details - be hypervigilant
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johnj
twi hopes to have ambassadors in the 12 countries they have active way corps. they have a long history of "believing" for certain large numbers in one program or another. i was always careful to ignore the "believing" numbers they published beforehand in the way magazine, and look at the actual numbers after an event (they didn't often put actual numbers in, but you could guess by looking at group photos). No doubt a few corps pad the numbers in some way when they pass them uphill. "Believing" often means living in fairy land. twi still has an inflated self image, still following vpw's narcissistic example
they seem to be heavily promoting gunnison as a destination, mostly via various "camps." it keeps money flowing in
I expect the "Christian music" at the young rock will be as regimented and programmed as anything way productions does. it seems to me everybody at twi dresses, walks and talks alike, in suits and dresses. kind of like the Agents in suits in the matrix
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johnj
from T-bone/ Mike: "The aim of the way corps program was to create little clones of wierwille… come to think of it, Mike maybe that sounds like something you would have been interested in since you’re a big fan of PFAL and wierwille…but as for me, I was really dissatisfied and frustrated. There was always such hype about the way corps program being lots of in-depth learning of the Bible and biblical principles – but it was just a wierwille-clone factory. What a letdown! "
This is mostly true- people were supposed to think, dress, teach like vpw. Clones. With one exception- people were supposed to worship him, not want people to worship them (as vpw did). But the irony is that many upper level leaders DID become completely like vpw. This came out after vp died, when many of them wanted to be "the man of God" (not necessarily using that title), acting in the power of holy spirit. Hence, splinter groups each with a clone of vpw at the head, scrambling for followers, claiming they're different from craig & twi - while producing clones of pfal and the way tree.
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T-Bone
Mike: “I was never in the Corps, and always deliberately opposed to joining, and often in disgust of it's attitudes. I thought it was mismanaged, and one of VPW's bigger mistakes.” Believe it or not, I’m in agreement with you on that…and I tend to think wierwille probably made A LOT OF BLUNDERS in thought, word, and deed – and shame on all of us who enabled him, facilitated his blunderous directives and heaped upon him googobs of respect and admiration.
The fact that you were smart enough to sense there was something amiss makes me think of I Thessalonians 5:21 " but test everything; hold fast what is good" – and what you said in a previous post “In my experience, I did not really trust what VPW taught until I could see it in my KJV”…and it bears repeating what I said to you in response, because it relates to what you said here – I said “you did a lot better than I did – if we’re comparing just our experiences as TWI-followers. I swallowed the whole thing hook, line and sinker for most of my time in TWI - 1974 up to 1984 when I went into the way corps. Then my experience stepped behind the curtain - I got to be a part of “the show” – the inner workings – that’s the parts that are only known by the people who work on it.”
For me it took going into the way corps to witness firsthand a lot of incongruities - the failure of TWI / PFAL / wierwille / the way corps program to fulfill their declared goals was an ever-growing blister of disappointment…and to see the inconsistencies between the actions of wierwille / LCM / corps coordinators and the ideals they supposedly represent.
I think it’s difficult for some TWI-followers who love God and enjoy reading the Bible to be able to stand back and recognize a counterfeit leader – and to deny their existence is being naïve – since they are clearly pointed out in the Bible:
The harsh, brutal and exploitative shepherds of Ezekiel 34
The hypocrites of Matthew 23
The false prophets and teachers of II Peter 2
Well…enough about me and my reasons for leaving TWI. I can sum it up with my own biggest mistake – I was looking for all of those wonderful things promised in PFAL, other classes, WOW program and the way corps program, when I should have seen the glaringly obvious signs of a cult-leader like wierwille.
Edited by T-Boneedited with you the viewer in mind
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Bolshevik
I don't know how anyone could come up with what VPW came up with by reading the KJV. I don't know how many times I asked, at age 11, where did this come from? I don't see the connection? . . . the response was always "take The Class, take The Class". Those who took the class decades ago couldn't explain anything. Biblical keys couldn't unlock new research because they couldn't unlock an open door. . . . only The Class could explain The Class. Lack of understanding meant retake The Class.
VPW himself said he didn't come up with his interpretation until sniffing fumes off the gas pumps, voices and all. Then he jotted down some notes off someone else's works . . .
Reading the Bible in TWI is the same as interpretation of tongues. You were told prior what to think. You acted and thought and spoke according to someone else's dictates.
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