Discussion on the "Vaccine"

[T-Bone]

16 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

I removed the video if it detracts from the thread but I am interested in how we can obtain rights and freedom.

 

I didn’t say anything about it detracting from the thread – I was just wondering how it tied into your safety/comfort vs freedom argument. 

As far as the second half of your statement:
“I am interested in how we can obtain rights and freedom.”

I believe one way to answer your question is to refer back to the definition of a Democracy that I gave in my previous post:

Democracy - a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives; control of an organization or group by the majority of its members; a form of government in which people choose leaders by voting. The nation has chosen democracy over monarchy.

Of course there are other ways to obtain rights and freedom - we'll have to define the context. I'm most familiar with a democracy - that's why I mentioned it. 
 

[Bolshevik]

11 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

I didn’t say anything about it detracting from the thread – I was just wondering how it tied into your safety/comfort vs freedom argument. 

As far as the second half of your statement:
“I am interested in how we can obtain rights and freedom.”

I believe one way to answer your question is to refer back to the definition of a Democracy that I gave in my previous post:

Democracy - a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives; control of an organization or group by the majority of its members; a form of government in which people choose leaders by voting. The nation has chosen democracy over monarchy.

Of course there are other ways to obtain rights and freedom - we'll have to define the context. I'm most familiar with a democracy - that's why I mentioned it. 
 

I'm not sure I follow you at all.

The curiosity of this thread is that the traffic is here and not about the way.

"God-given" immune system.  What are they talking about?  I just don't.

God-given.  . . God Given rights?  They don't get the vaccine because they are self reliant and others are not?

So maybe the video had something to do with conformity?  Then they would explain?

[Allan]

3 hours ago, Bolshevik said:

Well you just used religious jargon as a shield. 

 

your opinion

[Allan]

2 hours ago, Rocky said:

Really? Somebody has been trying to coerce you into becoming Dr Frankenstein's lab subject?

That's just silly.

IF your bottom line is that you don't want the vax, then just say so. You don't have to confabulate ridiculous arguments if that's all you want to accomplish.

Um, er, well done Sherlock lol

[Rocky]

1 minute ago, Allan said:

your opinion

Are you sure it wasn't analysis?

[Allan]

So we're all good to get into 'politics' side of it then ?

[Allan]

1 minute ago, Rocky said:

Are you sure it wasn't analysis?

no, simply an opinion

[Rocky]

2 minutes ago, Allan said:

no, simply an opinion

Oh, okay. Whatever you say. 

[T-Bone]

30 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

I'm not sure I follow you at all.

The curiosity of this thread is that the traffic is here and not about the way.

"God-given" immune system.  What are they talking about?  I just don't.

God-given.  . . God Given rights?  They don't get the vaccine because they are self reliant and others are not?

So maybe the video had something to do with conformity?  Then they would explain?

At this point I doubt if I can answer any of your questions. It doesn’t matter. It’s just a conversation. And besides due to inflation my two cents isn’t even worth two cents anymore…why just the other day a Grease Spotter said to me “a penny for your thoughts” and I had to give them an I.O.U. …perhaps some other folks will chime in and answer your questions.

[waysider]

9 hours ago, Allan said:

15 hours ago, waysider said:

You're still missing the point, Allan.

1.) Children with the virus are vectors. They spread the disease to others who can suffer severe disease and death. Remember Typhoid Mary? She unknowingly infected 53 people. Three of them died. She, herself, was asymptomatic.

 

2.) Children can appear to be unaffected, only to develop MIS-C weeks later. If left untreated, it can be life threatening. No one wants to knowingly subject their kids to that possibility.

 

3.) The risks you can face from getting the disease are greater than the risks from the vaccine. Pericarditis is a good example. Your chance of developing pericarditis from the disease, itself, is several times higher than from the vaccine.

 

All the vaccine does is teach the body's immune system what the virus looks like so when it sees it, it can launch an immune response. Your immune system does the heavy lifting, not the vaccine. You are correct when you say we don't know how long your immune system will fight off infection. Not enough time has passed to really know yet.

 

Immunity is multifaceted. When your body senses a foreign substance (virus), it begins to produce antibodies. Our bodies encounter foreign invaders all the time so they are constantly producing some form or other of antibodies. They are too numerous for your body to retain on a long term basis. That's why efficacy wanes. There is good news, though. Once your immune system knows what a particular virus looks like, it starts producing special cells (T-Cells and B-Cells) that are specifically tasked with sensing the presence of invaders and subsequently making a new batch of antibodies.  People who were infected with SARS-1 in 2003 have long since lost any antibodies they developed. Recent tests, however, have revealed they still have at least some T and B cells, 18 years after the fact. SARS-1 is similar to the current SARS-2 that is causing Covid. With that in mind, it's reasonable to assume that some T and B cells for SARS-2 may last for years, as well. We don't know that for a fact, though, because not enough time has passed. In the meantime we can use the vaccine to tell the body to make  T and B cells and keep the arsenal full just in case .

Expand  

Unless you realise vaccinated people ALSO shed virus, you've missed the point, so that excuse for vaccinating kids is moot.

Being vaccinated makes you less likely to become infected in the first place. If you're not infected, you're not contagious. That seems like it should be an easy enough concept to grasp.

[Allan]

12 minutes ago, waysider said:

Being vaccinated makes you less likely to become infected in the first place. If you're not infected, you're not contagious. That seems like it should be an easy enough concept to grasp.

ummmm....you better check if the vaccination makes one immune from catching covid ?? Peer reviwed papers would suggest not... you're running round in circles here...

[Modgellan]

This topic was locked to comments while it was under review. Numerous posts by several people were removed or edited due to either political content, falsehoods, or personal attacks.

This thread has walked a fine line since the day it began, but for the most part people stayed within the bounds. When you perceive (rightly or wrongly) that someone steps over the line, it is NOT necessary, funny nor wise, for you to leap over it yourself. You know better. Report it and move on.

[Rocky]

5 hours ago, Allan said:

So we're all good to get into 'politics' side of it then ?

Again, since your bottom line is that you refuse to get vaxxed, why do you need to justify that position to anyone other than yourself?

 

[Allan]

1 hour ago, Rocky said:

Again, since your bottom line is that you refuse to get vaxxed, why do you need to justify that position to anyone other than yourself?

 

Um, perhaps because this is a forum and after Oldiesman contributed the first post, people started jumping in with their 'justification' as to WHY THEY got vaxxed and why everyone else should as well...if we all kept our 'opinions' to ourselves, well, it wouldn't be much of a forum...would it ? The door of public discourse swings both ways dude.

[skyrider]

1 hour ago, Allan said:

Um, perhaps because this is a forum and after Oldiesman contributed the first post, people started jumping in with their 'justification' as to WHY THEY got vaxxed and why everyone else should as well...if we all kept our 'opinions' to ourselves, well, it wouldn't be much of a forum...would it ? The door of public discourse swings both ways dude.

 

Thanks Allan.......you have every right to your position.

THIS is what an *open discussion forum* should be.......1) discourse about the subject, 2) each bringing their perspective, opinion and position into view, 3) no personal attacks, 4) no politics, 5) facts, statistics and one's discernment of that analysis, 6) new studies, new data, new treatments, 7) etc.

Around the world.....vaccines, mandates and passports are being discussed (and challenged) by nearly everyone, right?  This topic affects everyone!  We will see the topic headlined for the next decade or two.  This is the stuff that fuels civil rights discussions and personal sovereignty.  Doctors, nurses, first-responders, police officers, firefighters, employers, employees, schools and universities, parents, children, etc. etc........this discussion is a touchstone for everyone.

Thank you GSC for allowing this discussion in open forum while others places, here and around the world, censor the free-flow of information and personal opinion.  Thanks to the moderators.  

 

 

 

[Bolshevik]

Before the vaccine and mandates I wore a mask because I knew it made others more comfortable.  Minor inconvenience in exchange for people being more open.

I didn't like the mask because it was annoying to wear and because it made it much harder to read people's faces.  Communication was made more difficult.  Were they smiling?  Scowling?  Mouth breathing?  It did hide anything in your teeth.  

The shutdowns affecting the economy, pushing people into poverty.  Poverty kills.  So we had stimulus.  Now we are hyper aware that fiat currency is a means for control.  And that touches everything.

Getting the vaccine helps open up the world.  There's bigger threats to life than the virus and fear of a silly needle.

 

 

 

[waysider]

10 hours ago, Allan said:

ummmm....you better check if the vaccination makes one immune from catching covid ?? Peer reviwed papers would suggest not... you're running round in circles here...

Vaccines do not make you immune. Your immune system does that. Vaccines teach your immune system what to look for so it can launch a defensive. In this particular instance, we're talking about the SARS-2 virus that causes the COVID-19 disease. A natural infection will also teach your immune system what the virus looks like. There are problems with this approach. First, you run the risk of becoming seriously ill or dying in the process. The vaccine eliminates that from the equation since the body is reacting to something that is not really a pathogen. Your body only thinks it is. In addition, the immunity you receive from a natural infection is, for the most part, unpredictable because it's unknown how much virus you were exposed to. With the vaccine, it's mostly predictable because the strength and dosage is controlled. This is why studies have been able to assign efficacy values. And, recent studies have strongly suggested that the immunity you receive from a natural infection does not last as long as immunity gained through vaccination. If you are serious about guarding against becoming infected with SARS-2, vaccination is clearly a better choice than taking a chance on a naturally occurring exposure to infect you.

Edited November 9, 2021 by waysider

[Raf]

The vaccine does not grant 100 percent effective immunity. What it DOES do is reduce the risk of developing covid if exposed, just like the chickenpox vaccine, the measles vaccine and the flu vaccine, none of which get anywhere near the amount of pushback.

And yes, some people DO get covid even though they are vaccinated. The vaccine reduces the severity of the disease in most cases..

No one is saying it never happens.. and the fact that it DOES happen is not proof the vaccine doesn't work.

It works.

[Raf]

The vaccine does not grant 100 percent effective immunity. What it DOES do is reduce the risk of developing covid if exposed, just like the chickenpox vaccine, the measles vaccine and the flu vaccine, none of which get anywhere near the amount of pushback.

And yes, some people DO get covid even though they are vaccinated. The vaccine reduces the severity of the disease in most cases..

No one is saying it never happens.. and the fact that it DOES happen is not proof the vaccine doesn't work.

It works.

[Bolshevik]

13 hours ago, T-Bone said:

I didn’t say anything about it detracting from the thread – I was just wondering how it tied into your safety/comfort vs freedom argument. 

As far as the second half of your statement:
“I am interested in how we can obtain rights and freedom.”

I believe one way to answer your question is to refer back to the definition of a Democracy that I gave in my previous post:

Democracy - a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives; control of an organization or group by the majority of its members; a form of government in which people choose leaders by voting. The nation has chosen democracy over monarchy.

Of course there are other ways to obtain rights and freedom - we'll have to define the context. I'm most familiar with a democracy - that's why I mentioned it. 
 

Okay I'm awake now

I was originally trying to get under why others refuse the vaccine as they appeared to me to point to independence/self-reliance as a reason . . . I'm not getting the vaccine in order to assert my individual rights which I feel are threatened.  I depend on me and me alone.  I grow my own food and dig my own latrine.

Safety/comfort vs freedom didn't come from a political angle in my view . . . but I think I can see now how it often does.

We often use the word democracy but are technically a type of republic.

In this context, with the virus, the vaccine would increase freedom.   Many economic systems have been disrupted.  There is still fear of the virus.  We are interdependent.  Each person getting the vaccine would free others to move forward and start dealing with other matters.  Getting the vaccine affects others.  Not getting the vaccine affects others.

 

[T-Bone]

1 hour ago, Bolshevik said:

Okay I'm awake now

I was originally trying to get under why others refuse the vaccine as they appeared to me to point to independence/self-reliance as a reason . . . I'm not getting the vaccine in order to assert my individual rights which I feel are threatened.  I depend on me and me alone.  I grow my own food and dig my own latrine.

Safety/comfort vs freedom didn't come from a political angle in my view . . . but I think I can see now how it often does.

We often use the word democracy but are technically a type of republic.

In this context, with the virus, the vaccine would increase freedom.   Many economic systems have been disrupted.  There is still fear of the virus.  We are interdependent.  Each person getting the vaccine would free others to move forward and start dealing with other matters.  Getting the vaccine affects others.  Not getting the vaccine affects others.

 

"Okay I'm awake now  " does that mean you got some sleep or were you sleep-posting ? 

= = = = = = =

"I was originally trying to get under why others refuse the vaccine as they appeared to me to point to independence/self-reliance as a reason . . . I'm not getting the vaccine in order to assert my individual rights which I feel are threatened.  I depend on me and me alone.  I grow my own food and dig my own latrine.

Safety/comfort vs freedom didn't come from a political angle in my view . . . but I think I can see now how it often does."   

I agree – a change in the context might mean that a different set of “rules” are necessary: a hermit living on a remote deserted island would have to fend for himself  versus  a group of people living together in one place. Which brings to mind a book I had to read in high school “Lord of the Flies”    “ a 1954 novel by Nobel Prize-winning British author William Golding. The book focuses on a group of British boys stranded on an uninhabited island and their disastrous attempt to govern themselves. Themes include the tension between groupthink and individuality, between rational and emotional reactions, and between morality and immorality.”

from : Wikipedia - Lord of the Flies

I think most of the time when we hear the term “political angle” – it relates to the ideas or strategies of a particular party or group in politics - - but I understood your comment as referring to the bigger picture - relating to the government or the public affairs of a country – assuming that most countries have some form of government – political science gets into stuff like that:

“Political science is the scientific study of politics. It is a social science dealing with systems of governance and power, and the analysis of political activities, political thought, political behavior, and associated constitutions and laws.

Modern political science can generally be divided into the three subdisciplines of comparative politics, international relations, and political theory. Other notable subdisciplines are public policy and administration, domestic politics and government (often studied within comparative politics), political economy, and political methodology. Furthermore, political science is related to, and draws upon, the fields of economics, law, sociology, history, philosophy, human geography, journalism, political anthropology, psychology, and social policy.

Political science is methodologically diverse and appropriates many methods originating in psychology, social research, and cognitive neuroscience. Approaches include positivism, interpretivism, rational choice theory, behaviouralism, structuralism, post-structuralism, realism, institutionalism, and pluralism. Political science, as one of the social sciences, uses methods and techniques that relate to the kinds of inquiries sought: primary sources, such as historical documents and official records, secondary sources, such as scholarly journal articles, survey research, statistical analysis, case studies, experimental research, and model building."

from: Wiki - political science 
 

= = = = = =

"We often use the word democracy but are technically a type of republic."

 

You are correct !!!!

“Founding Father James Madison may have best described the difference between a democracy and a republic:

“It [the difference] is that in a democracy, the people meet and exercise the government in person: in a republic, they assemble and administer it by their representatives and agents. A democracy, consequently, must be confined to a small spot. A republic may be extended over a large region.”

The fact that the Founders intended that the United States should function as a representative democracy, rather than a pure democracy is illustrated in Alexander Hamilton’s letter of May 19, 1777, to Gouverneur Morris.

“But a representative democracy, where the right of election is well secured and regulated & the exercise of the legislative, executive and judiciary authorities, is vested in select persons, chosen really and not nominally by the people, will in my opinion be most likely to be happy, regular and durable.”

from: thought co - democracy vs republic
 

Edited November 9, 2021 by T-Bone
typos and formatting

[Raf]

I don't know where the shock is coming from that we're allowing this discussion. 

We allowed a discussion on people claiming to produce foreign languages through magic.

We allowed a discussion on the health benefits of superoxygenated water.

The one relevant rule we have on GSC is no politics. This topic skirts the line. When it has been crossed, we have deleted posts without warning or apology. Based on the feedback, we are content that we are striking the right balance in making sure this conversation can proceed without crossing that line.

[Bolshevik]

I'm just gonna leave this right here.  This is what I learned today.

 

[Allan]

How about actually reading past the headlines Bolshe, that's the way to get a better informed opinion :)

Ivermectin: Can People Take a Drug for Horses and Cows To Treat a Deadly Virus? (scitechdaily.com)

[Bolshevik]

6 minutes ago, Allan said:

How about actually reading past the headlines Bolshe, that's the way to get a better informed opinion :)

Ivermectin: Can People Take a Drug for Horses and Cows To Treat a Deadly Virus? (scitechdaily.com)

Let's not horse around.  The vaccine neigh-sayers will do anything to worm their way out of this one.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Bolshevik
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