Discussion on the "Vaccine"

[Bolshevik]

Can we be more specific?

 

This guy is celebrated all over social media for contrarianism.  At the center of that was a malignant narcissist/borderline.

 

Edited November 8, 2021 by Bolshevik

[Rocky]

8 hours ago, Bolshevik said:

It is also going to be hard to convince folks cars drive safer without a person behind the wheel.  New technology will dominate the roads someday.  That may not feel right.  But it is logical.

That's a whole different subject, not simply an example to illustrate something for this thread. It might seem logical to you but for multiple reasons it is not rational.

[Rocky]

15 hours ago, Allan said:

Vax now for 5 year olds and under !! People were never told the vax was only good for six months, then you'd need a second...then you'd need a booster...they cant even tell yet HOW LONG the BOOSTER IS GOOD FOR !! They're making it up as they damn well go along.

Science is ALL about figuring things out. Science and scientific discovery is not static. When new information is discovered, the best guidance changes. That's basic.

"Science is the pursuit and application of knowledge and understanding of the natural and social world following a systematic methodology based on evidence."

That's exactly the opposite of "making it up as they damn well go along." And as far as your arguments on covid19 and vaccination goes, your use of that expression completely undermines EVERY bit of what you have claimed to be true.

[Bolshevik]

9 minutes ago, Rocky said:

That's a whole different subject, not simply an example to illustrate something for this thread. It might seem logical to you but for multiple reasons it is not rational.

Allan's position remains unclear to me.

[Rocky]

2 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

Allan's position remains unclear to me.

I'm not surprised. I don't think it's clear to him. The bottom line to his position seems to be that he's fighting against some malicious "entity" (his word, not mine) that, as he said, is making it up as the damn well go along.

 

5 minutes ago, Rocky said:

"...They're making it up as they damn well go along..."

Btw, the self-driving automobile subject ignores the human drive for control. I don't believe that's going to happen in our lifetime.

[Bolshevik]

18 minutes ago, Rocky said:

I'm not surprised. I don't think it's clear to him. The bottom line to his position seems to be that he's fighting against some malicious "entity" (his word, not mine) that, as he said, is making it up as the damn well go along.

 

Btw, the self-driving automobile subject ignores the human drive for control. I don't believe that's going to happen in our lifetime.

I don't think the self driving ignores the human need for control - it highlights it.  Whatever lifetime it does happen in- that generation will have that discussion and eventually people won't think about it.  I was postulating fear and resistance to change.

An entity might be felt . . . Hence the "God-given" phrase two posters have brought up.  Perhaps they feel controlled by the social shaming.

[Allan]

3 hours ago, Bolshevik said:

 

I would agree a time a fear is a great opportunity for implementing social controls. 

 

Here's a video.

 

There you go , Twinky and Rocky simmered things down a bit, now Bolshes got me all fired up again....bastido !! lol

[Allan]

2 hours ago, Bolshevik said:

Can we be more specific?

 

This guy is celebrated all over social media for contrarianism.  At the center of that was a malignant narcissist/borderline.

 

Hey, that's my Grandad !! Must get my genes from him lol

[Allan]

3 hours ago, Raf said:

Of all the...

You know what's dangerously close to cultism? Denying what the experts in a given field say because you read an old piece of literature that convinces you that you know better.

Contrarianism, the belief that an iconoclastic view must be the correct view. THAT'S cultism. 

The rejection of expertise in favor of "special knowledge." 

That's cultism.

Wierwille, Martindale, Fort were your experts in a given field at one time yeah ? Most people don't realise they're in a cult whilst they're still swallowing the blue pills :)

[Allan]

48 minutes ago, Rocky said:

Science is ALL about figuring things out. Science and scientific discovery is not static. When new information is discovered, the best guidance changes. That's basic.

"Science is the pursuit and application of knowledge and understanding of the natural and social world following a systematic methodology based on evidence."

That's exactly the opposite of "making it up as they damn well go along." And as far as your arguments on covid19 and vaccination goes, your use of that expression completely undermines EVERY bit of what you have claimed to be true.

well, they can figure it out on your body, not mine, comprende ?

[Allan]

48 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

Allan's position remains unclear to me.

Waysider "

Thanks Allan......for stating your position.

THiS is what a *discussion forum* is all about.  Something that twi NEVER allowed. "

Perhaps ask Waysider if yourself and Rocky are still struggling to grasp a fairly simple concept.

 

[Allan]

17 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

I don't think the self driving ignores the human need for control - it highlights it.  Whatever lifetime it does happen in- that generation will have that discussion and eventually people won't think about it.  I was postulating fear and resistance to change.

An entity might be felt . . . Hence the "God-given" phrase two posters have brought up.  Perhaps they feel controlled by the social shaming.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel (Grace admin is our 'gospel' today)...so.no. I'm not feeling controlled by anything :)

[skyrider]

48 minutes ago, Rocky said:

Btw, the self-driving automobile subject ignores the human drive for control. I don't believe that's going to happen in our lifetime.

 

Also.....the self-driving automobile subject ignores the human drive for pleasure.  

Why would someone want to sit as a passive passenger when they could drive a MASERATI.

 

[Bolshevik]

4 minutes ago, Allan said:

For I am not ashamed of the gospel (Grace admin is our 'gospel' today)...so.no. I'm not feeling controlled by anything :)

Well you just used religious jargon as a shield. 

 

[skyrider]

42 minutes ago, Rocky said:

Btw, the self-driving automobile subject ignores the human drive for control. I don't believe that's going to happen in our lifetime.

 

Also.....the self-driving automobile subject ignores the human drive for pleasure.  

Why would someone want to sit as a passive passenger when they could drive a MASERATI.

 

[Rocky]

28 minutes ago, Allan said:

well, they can figure it out on your body, not mine, comprende ?

Really? Somebody has been trying to coerce you into becoming Dr Frankenstein's lab subject?

That's just silly.

IF your bottom line is that you don't want the vax, then just say so. You don't have to confabulate ridiculous arguments if that's all you want to accomplish.

[Bolshevik]

4 minutes ago, Rocky said:

Sorry, I was actually trying to NOT derail the thread. Obviously, I failed.

The car stuff was about the "vaccine".  Just an illustration.  

[Bolshevik]

https://www.businessinsider.com/vaccine-hesitancy-us-compared-other-countries-chart-2021-9

Edited November 9, 2021 by Bolshevik
Conspiracies. . . Conspiracies EVERYWHERE

[T-Bone]

On 11/7/2021 at 4:30 PM, Bolshevik said:

 

Are you saying getting the vaccine is equivalent or analogous to joining a cult?  

 

Awhile ago you were bragging about your God-given immunity abilities.  As predestination was involved.

 

 

On 11/7/2021 at 7:43 PM, Allan said:

I'm thinking (not saying) that the hysteria and rhetoric around it and the 'group think' is resoundingly close to cultism.

This seems to be faulty reasoning -  a straw man argument - the real subject of the argument (the facts and stats of covid deaths and effective vaccines and effective safety protocols) is not addressed or refuted,

but instead

replaced with a false one – alleging there is “hysteria and rhetoric around it and the 'group think'  is resoundingly close to cultism.”   

Can you explain why you think people who follow the science and get the vaccine are caught up in hysteria? ( hysteria - exaggerated or uncontrollable emotion or excitement, an old-fashioned term for a disorder characterized by neurological symptoms often accompanied by exaggeratedly or inappropriately emotional behavior)    

and engage in rhetoric (rhetoric - language designed to have a persuasive or impressive effect on its audience, but often regarded as lacking in sincerity or meaningful content). could you point out some specific examples you've noticed?
 

[T-Bone]

5 hours ago, Bolshevik said:

 

I would agree a time a fear is a great opportunity for implementing social controls. 

 

Here's a video.

 

I am puzzled why you posted this you tube – the official title is “MASS PSYCHOSIS - How an Entire Population Becomes MENTALLY ILL”  …it opens with a quote from Gustave Le Bon defining Mass Psychosis as  “an epidemic of madness & it occurs when a large portion of society loses touch with reality & descends into madness”. The speaker then gives as examples the American and European witch hunts of the 16th & 17th century and in the 20th century with the rise of totalitarianism ( which according to Internet dictionary  is a system of government that is centralized and dictatorial and requires complete subservience to the state).

The you tube narrator also  quotes  Joost Meerloo (a Dutch/American Doctor of Medicine and psychoanalyst, author of  Rape of the Mind, an analysis of brainwashing techniques and thought control in totalitarian states) “Logic can be met with logic, while illogic cannot. It confuses those who think straight. The Big Lie monotonously repeated nonsense have more of an emotional appeal…than logic & reason. While the people are still searching for a reasonable counter-argument to the first lie, the totalitarians can assault them with another.”  The you tube narrator goes on to say “Never before in history have such effective means to manipulate a society into the psychosis of totalitarianism.” 

I don’t see how the you tube video relates to this discussion on Covid-19, vaccines, safety protocols and mandates. Maybe you could explain connection with the Mass Psychosis video.

the video has some interesting points – and I was tickled to read a comment Adam B posted a month ago “I imagine people on both sides are watching this and thinking it applies to the other side and not theirs.” 
 

 

Is this a follow up from an earlier post of yours?

On 11/6/2021 at 10:25 AM, Bolshevik said:

Like when I mentioned helmets earlier because we have skulls?

I think this is a safety/comfort vs freedom argument.  What the hell does god-given mean?

Yes the vaccine will save lives.  

 

 

Which I responded to by saying:

On 11/6/2021 at 12:01 PM, T-Bone said:

Your statements brought to mind a couple of things.

From the Declaration of Independence:
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”

 

 

And something I read in an article that redefines the “safety/comfort vs freedom argument” as more like a working relationship or well-balanced formula:

“People who say that freedom and safety have no correlations, and that safety is more important than freedom or freedom is more important that safety, have not considered it’s daily applications. In society today, people demand both freedom and safety. While more and more Americans demand freedom to do things as they please, they want the feeling of protection and safety.

Safety is needed when more freedom is given. An example of this lies in our homes. As children have later curfews as they grow older, their parents demand for more of their own protection for their children. Ultimately, curfews are reasonable guidelines and should be followed. It is important to maintain respect for your parents and the rules they set throughout your adolescent years. “While it may seem unfair or unreasonable at the time, you will eventually realize how beneficial such rules were and will thank your parents for looking out for your well-being. ” (Why Curfews Should Be Enforced).

This correlation is evidence that with more freedom, people need more safety to keep them in check and to keep people in line. Freedom in this case cannot exist without the need for safety and safety is not necessary if there is no freedom. Freedom and safety are desired by everyone. However, unlike popular belief, they cannot be separated. Like a well-balanced formula, freedom and safety intertwine in a well-defined system. In this contemporary society, freedom is important for the liberties of the people; however, safety is important for the security of the people. Both freedom and safety are important factors for people today.”
 

excerpts from  PHD Essay safety versus freedom

The article I quoted redefines the “safety/comfort vs freedom argument” as more like a working relationship or well-balanced formula. To put it another way – you present a false dichotomy – an “either-or” type of argument. Two choices are presented, when more might exist, and the claim is made that one is false and one is true - or one is acceptable and the other is not…

Rather than an either-or   -   do you think it can be a both/and ? could there be laws in a particular society that ensure both our safety and our freedom?

The Second Amendment to the United States Constitution protects the right to keep and bear arms. So, do you think you have the right to carry a gun into a bar in Texas? Answer = “You cannot carry a gun open or concealed in a bar if 51% of their business comes from the sale of alcohol . You can carry in a place that serves food and alcohol as long as the greatest part of the business is the sale of food… All ‘bars’ in Texas post “51%” signs to warn licensed firearm carry permit holders of the restrictions.” From: https://www.quora.com/Is-open-carry-of-guns-permitted-in-bars-in-Texas . So, one could argue that a bar in Texas is infringing upon their 2nd amendment rights. But I’m of the opinion not allowing guns in a bar is a good thing – and hopefully it helps prevent a law-abiding-drunken-hothead from shooting up the joint…both / and  tries to address both safety and freedom - in the above case by more than one law.

I’m confused… By posting the you tube that gets into totalitarianism you seem to be suggesting that a democratic society’s concern for safety/comfort, wanting to implement laws and mandates for their own safety/comfort is somehow fear and a great opportunity for implementing social controls and totalitarianism. Maybe you can clarify what you meant to say.

 

btw
I am using dictionary definitions to establish terms:
Democracy - a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives; control of an organization or group by the majority of its members; a form of government in which people choose leaders by voting The nation has chosen democracy over monarchy.

Totalitarianism - a system of government that is centralized and dictatorial and requires complete subservience to the state; Totalitarianism is a form of government and a political system that prohibits all opposition parties, outlaws individual opposition to the State and its claims, and exercises an extremely high degree of control and regulation over public and private life. It is regarded as the most extreme and complete form of authoritarianism. In totalitarian states, political power is often held by autocrats, such as dictators and absolute monarchs, who employ all-encompassing campaigns in which propaganda is broadcast by state-controlled mass media in order to control the citizenry.
 

Edited November 9, 2021 by T-Bone

[Bolshevik]

I posted it in hopes of getting clarity from Allan on his thinking.  Like I said.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Bolshevik

[Twinky]

Well, instead of piling onto Allan, whose views this group is unlikely to change, does anyone want to discuss what they understand of the relative efficiencies of the different vaccines? 

You US folks probably don't get any of the AstraZeneca stuff (being as it's not made in the US, patriotism and all that).  I think you go for Pfizer and Moderna.  There are Russian vaccines as well, but their effectiveness has been questioned.  Nonetheless, "Sputnik" is in use in dozens of countries.  China has developed two vaccines.

Some are single-dose; most are double-dose; some must be kept very cold, others kept at fridge temperature or maybe even room temp, which make them more suitable for developing countries with less reliable cooling/freezing abilities.  Single dose might be good for very scattered populations where it takes days to walk to a vax centre.

I found this graph, showing situation at July 2021, which I found rather interesting.  Didn't know there were so many different types.  Don't know if they are all WHO approved; doubtful.

[Bolshevik]

I got the comfort/nomad argument from Nomads.  Living in a van.  Give up comfort, you have more freedom to move.

[Bolshevik]

Just now, Rocky said:

Good luck with that. 

Well throwing science articles at him seemed odd 

[Bolshevik]

35 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

I am puzzled why you posted this you tube – the official title is “MASS PSYCHOSIS - How an Entire Population Becomes MENTALLY ILL”  …it opens with a quote from Gustave Le Bon defining Mass Psychosis as  “an epidemic of madness & it occurs when a large portion of society loses touch with reality & descends into madness”. The speaker then gives as examples the American and European witch hunts of the 16th & 17th century and in the 20th century with the rise of totalitarianism ( which according to Internet dictionary  is a system of government that is centralized and dictatorial and requires complete subservience to the state).

The you tube narrator also  quotes  Joost Meerloo (a Dutch/American Doctor of Medicine and psychoanalyst, author of  Rape of the Mind, an analysis of brainwashing techniques and thought control in totalitarian states) “Logic can be met with logic, while illogic cannot. It confuses those who think straight. The Big Lie monotonously repeated nonsense have more of an emotional appeal…than logic & reason. While the people are still searching for a reasonable counter-argument to the first lie, the totalitarians can assault them with another.”  The you tube narrator goes on to say “Never before in history have such effective means to manipulate a society into the psychosis of totalitarianism.” 

I don’t see how the you tube video relates to this discussion on Covid-19, vaccines, safety protocols and mandates. Maybe you could explain connection with the Mass Psychosis video.

the video has some interesting points – and I was tickled to read a comment Adam B posted a month ago “I imagine people on both sides are watching this and thinking it applies to the other side and not theirs.” 
 

 

Is this a follow up from an earlier post of yours?

 

Which I responded to by saying:

The article I quoted redefines the “safety/comfort vs freedom argument” as more like a working relationship or well-balanced formula. To put it another way – you present a false dichotomy – an “either-or” type of argument. Two choices are presented, when more might exist, and the claim is made that one is false and one is true - or one is acceptable and the other is 

I’m confused… By posting the you tube that gets into totalitarianism you seem to be suggesting that a democratic society’s concern for safety/comfort, wanting to implement laws and mandates for their own safety/comfort is somehow fear and a great opportunity for implementing social controls and totalitarianism. Maybe you can clarify what you meant to say.

 

I removed the video if it detracts from the thread but I am interested in how we can obtain rights and freedom.