I believe there are people who cannot develop an authentic self. They have to mimic those around them. You could say they lack a soul. They lack a stable identity. . . . They are parasitic in order to survive because they can't "talk to them selves" . . they can't relate to themselves. Thus you can't relate to them, because they are not there to relate to. When they are off their game you can feel a void looking into their eyes. You could call call that unmasking.
Am I speaking metaphorically? If the soul is a metaphor, if the self concept is a metaphor, if identity is a metaphor, then yes.
1 hour ago, T-Bone said:
. . . I kept asking if YOU were speaking metaphorically …figuratively about there being no one behind the mask. I never got a straight answer from you. . . .
Answering in reverse order:
I was not up all night; yesterday I was working on updating my GSC about me profile off and on from about 2:30pm to about 12:45am CST – it just so happened while I was online I got a notification you quoted me on this thread; I decided to make a few replies to you after which I went to bed about 1:32am; I was not sleep-posting !
Also I take issue with your statement “We're clearly talking past each other.”
From the internet – “talk past each other” – “an idiom meaning: A situation where two or more people talk about different subjects while believing they are talking about the same thing.”
Maybe that’s how you think it’s going. I have been following what points you’re trying to make – which necessitated me asking you very specific questions to give you a chance to clarify what you’re talking about…why don’t you review all our posts so far and see how many times I kept asking if YOU were speaking metaphorically …figuratively about there being no one behind the mask. I never got a straight answer from you. Don’t bother giving me homework and expect me to click on links or Google more about it – I’m having a discussion with YOU – not some teacher that I have to check back with periodically to make sure I’m correctly following this week’s assignment.
And besides that, what doesn’t really help is the fact that if and when you respond to a question – it’s usually a brief cryptic one liner and/or you just post another link or toss out some reference to what Vanknin said.
May I make a suggestion – quote him or anyone else all you want – but in doing so, would you also please put more of your own thoughts, opinions, analysis, critiques, extrapolations, etc. in the post. Then, it won’t be like some fifth-grade book report that merely quotes and mentions highlights of a book.
back to the last idea I’d like to revisit – you wondered if I was suggesting that VPW could change, and in a broader sense you seem to being saying that a malignant narcissist is no longer a person…thus incapable of changing or finding their authentic self since it evidently has “died” or gone away…so if you could – in your own words – elaborate on what I just mentioned from YOUR OWN VIEWPOINT – without sending me off on a great Googling adventure…by elaborate I mean you can respond by clarifying – refuting what I said – or correcting the way I phrased something – or filling in the gaps of my understanding – whatever – you are free to gab away – let’s pretend we’re having a conversation in person and don’t have any devices so we can’t look up something on the Internet – we’ll have to just go with what’s already in our heads.
You reminded me of something in relation to this whole topic, maybe, I think - (and I liked that Love Winner-Chicken Dinner book too)....hold on, story time -
I was once interviewed by HR at a company I worked for regarding a complaint two employees had made against another employee, who was the manager of both of them and up a link in the food chain, mine also. I knew and had worked with all involved and in fact had been in teams managed by both. I did have some specific insight into the complaint and a first hand opinion of it's validity. So they asked me a series of questions in a phone interview about it all and I was very honest in my feedback and the understanding I had, which supported the view of those making the complaint.
The last question I was asked was - did I think the person getting the complaint "could change"......I answered in 2 parts - 1. I can't speak to that, I think that's outside my ability to judge even from a professional standpoint ... and 2. Realistically, "But".....based on my experience with that specific person - no, they likely will not, not without some intervention and guidance...why expect different results if the person has no reason to change, might not see any advantage to changing, and unless a path to change is laid out and agreed to...?
So there's some responsibility in judgment - if I were to say someone HAD to change, if there a path forward? Is there a penalty component to it? Etc. Etc.
When I think of real people and real incidents and things done and the effect it all has on everyone, past events are the easiest - and the hardest - to work through - and EVERYthing is past. EVERYone can have a different perspective and viewpoint of the same event in the past and everyone does, even when it's "the same". It's the nature of reality, as the individual living it understands it to be.
But - we can come to an agreement on it. Like the example of Charles Manson - I could get my Armchair PsychoAnalyst Certificate renewed every year doing a paper on why HE was a nut case.
But that's easy and made all the easier because the entire case history of Manson is - over. He's dead. I'm sifting through the grains of facts in a reality that are like the pixels in a multi million color scan, they can be completely laid out and searched both for what and where they are but also for what they mean in an ongoing PRESENT REALITY.
Anyway, on a practical level I can say with 100 per cent confidence and without the slightest doubt, and with all the gravitas it deserves - V P Weirwille isn't going to change. He's dead. Wha that meant, means and the effects in an ongoing experience with those of us hmmm, affected by him and what he did, well that will continue as long as there's people who care, wind blows and grass grows.
Me, I change all the time, and take my word for it - always for the better. Smarter, faster, better, older, wiser. You can take my word for it. : )
Edited by socks Did you just say he contacts you through a bird? .... Did I just hear you say that?
I believe there are people who cannot develop an authentic self. They have to mimic those around them. You could say they lack a soul. They lack a stable identity. . . . They are parasitic in order to survive because they can't "talk to them selves" . . they can't relate to themselves. Thus you can't relate to them, because they are not there to relate to. When they are off their game you can feel a void looking into their eyes. You could call call that unmasking.
Am I speaking metaphorically? If the soul is a metaphor, if the self concept is a metaphor, if identity is a metaphor, then yes.
Great post, Bolshevik – now we’re getting somewhere!
I don’t have a problem with anything you just said – other than I would like to define some terms a little better and maybe we could find some more common ground.
Authentic self – this is how I understand it when I think of authentic self – it’s basically the you that can be found at your absolute core. It is that part of you that cannot be defined by some job, hobbies, whether you’re married or single, whether you’re a parent or not. It’s a unique blend of your skills, experiences, wisdom, perceptions – stuff that makes you unique and may even drive you to seek ways of making known your thoughts and feelings – rather than what you believe you are supposed to be – going that route, gets into your adaptive self – what you do to survive in an environment that may actually challenge or threaten your authentic self. Example – I put on “Twig-face” when I go to fellowship, I’m all smiles and pleasant to others and say nothing about the elephant in the room – which happens to be squishing the $hit out of my expensive sofa, but it’s rumored he’s interested in the class so mum’s the word….I know, I know The Bible is “The Word”…oh never mind... smoking is outside and if you got ‘em smoke ‘em. Did anyone bring more Postum to Twig?
…where was I ? oh yeah - this gets into psychological stuff like identity and my amateur understand of that is how that relates to our self-image, self-esteem and individuation, and how I as an individual sees myself both as a person and in relation to others…I understand what you’re saying “I believe there are people who cannot develop an authentic self” and I think the operative word in your statement is “develop” – which implies there's some work or effort involved on your part– …a process…change...growth…which necessitates there has to be something there to begin with.
I remember from reading books on psychology about the study of personality – and I re-checked the idea on the Internet and found it mentioned on Wikipedia:
“Personality psychology is a branch of psychology that studies personality and its variation among individuals. It aims to show how people are individually different due to psychological forces. "Personality" is a dynamic and organized set of characteristics possessed by a person that uniquely influences their environment, cognition, emotions, motivations, and behaviors in various situations. The word personality originates from the Latin persona, which means "mask".”
From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_psychology
And you may be pleased to note that “mask” was mentioned in that…Steven Pinker has a fascinating book “The Blank Slate” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blank_Slate – that addresses traditional concepts of human nature and how that effects every aspect of our lives – how we live, how we interact with others, raise our kids, embrace or oppose certain ideologies, etc. One of the main ideas I got from the book is that we are NOT blank slates – but rather we become who we are now through an intertwining process of nature AND nurture.
To back up and revisit vpw, Charles Manson and other tangents like can people like that change – I’ll offer three personal opinions.
1. This first opinion of mine reflects the reality of human nature, some 67 years of interacting with people and also goes along the lines of what Socks talked about – and so honestly in my opinion folks like vpw and Charles Mansion while they were ALIVE – I doubt if they would have changed…
2. My second opinion is from the professional-mental-health-wannabe-part-of me (yeah – in my dreams - I know, I know ) that thinks I should never give up on people – but to always offer help and hope…
3. My third opinion comes from my religious beliefs – from what I understand of the immediate and final picture of the redemptive plans of God. In the “here and now” we have the moral demands of the Bible to guide us in reconciling ourselves to God and to each other…and I’m not shy in admitting how shortsighted I was of God’s ultimate plan and gargantuan love – I’m still processing some ideas of Bell’s book “Love Wins” but you can get some idea of God’s freewill-honoring redemptive plan if you read my comments of the book in the link of my previous post.
So, to sum it up – I think everyone has an authentic self – a core of what makes them who they are – this can be a composite of good and bad stuff – lovely healthy fruit bearing trees and some choking weeds and thorns – actual quantities of each will vary person to person depending on how they “managed” their “garden”. Is there a point of no-return when and where someone neglects self-examination, self-improvement, etc. and they are a lost cause – no authentic self? Not sure – on a practical level, from what I’ve witnessed in life so far – I think so – but I gotta remind myself about Saul’s / Paul’s 180 degree turnaround…It can happen.
The soul: I no longer follow TWI’s trichotomy of humans being body, soul, and spirit – and if you’re an unbeliever you’re just body and soul – an “empty floating by" as LCM put it. To counter what TWI taught, I would have to get into what is the biblical definition of death and the fact that people are still referred to as bearing the image of God in the Old and New Test., long after the fall of man in Genesis 3…I believe the soul is the spiritual part of a person that is believed to give life to the body and in many religions besides Christianity is believed to live forever. So I believe everyone has a soul. It is the image of God - whatever that is - - and because of our fallen nature, it is a tarnished image of God.
When I hear someone say “I looked into his eyes and it’s like he had no soul” – I interpret that as a figure of speech – not to be taken literally – but to simply indicate that the person appears to lack the ability to feel kindness, sympathy and empathy for others or maybe just meaning that person has no qualms about doing whatever the hell they want regardless of how it may impact others.
well...that's my two cents on the subject...ain't sayin' it's right or wrong...just sayin' it's only worth about two cents...in Canadian money it's more or less.
If a person is missing a leg . . . they can acquire a prosthetic. Effort is not going to replace it with a real one.
In dealing with living forms of these personality disorder . . . pretending like there's a possibility of change is dangerous and naïve. They are dead . . . there is no possibility of change.
(Dialectic Behavior Therapy might help some . . . good luck)
You can read body language . . . and see the mask . . . which should fall under critical thinking skills?
If a person is missing a leg . . . they can acquire a prosthetic. Effort is not going to replace it with a real one.
In dealing with living forms of these personality disorder . . . pretending like there's a possibility of change is dangerous and naïve. They are dead . . . there is no possibility of change.
(Dialectic Behavior Therapy might help some . . . good luck)
You can read body language . . . and see the mask . . . which should fall under critical thinking skills?
Well, you’re talking about stuff way out of my league… I am not a mental health specialist – maybe you are (I don’t recall if you’ve mentioned that elsewhere). but if you want to rehash the issues that we’ve already discussed thus far of dealing with people with personality disorders, I lean toward what seems to be (from what I’ve read so far, anyway) a well-founded consensus in psychology that there are incurable personality disorders.
That being said, I would also add that I’ve read about helpful and hopeful research, therapies and medicines in the mental health services (you mentioned one yourself - DBT) . I would not be so callous as to tell someone “There is no possibility of change for you”.
If indeed the mental health specialists say a personality disorder is incurable, but they still continue to do research and develop therapies and medicines – that leads me to think they are reframing the problem – instead of curing the condition, they are creating ways for the patient to deal with it. That is helpful…hopeful…maybe not the kind of change you were expecting but it does change the experience for the patient - hopefully for the better -and for friends and family they interact with as well…maybe daily life becomes more tolerable for all involved.
Mental health specialists reframing a problem is certainly a lot more comprehensive than someone like me dabbling in pat answers from the Bible or spewing out my tidbits of pop-psychology - - and what THEY do is so much more helpful because it’s from a different perspectives and specific knowledge and training - depending on the “assortment of specialties” in a scientific or medical team. Maybe it’s like a bunch of MacGyver-types trying to help someone get through or around an immoveable object in their pathway of the route they must take every day. They’re going to try and help the person move on…either go through or get around the immoveable object. Crawl / climb over it? Walk all the way around it? Burrow through it? Buy an ATV and go off-roading around it? Offer to be a friend and walk and talk with them on the detour? Maybe now the person doesn’t feel stuck…or as confused…overwhelmed…something has changed.
I am not going to entertain the idea that they can change without evidence. Not maybe hopefully. The cult leader is void around which many gather. Looking at them with hope is just stupid.
Dead Cult Leaders, hmmmm. Well, I supposed they are supposed to be like the last few Jedi, just dissolve into the Force, no final expenses incurred by the followers. No burial or cremation necessary. No memorial either.
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Bolshevik
I believe there are people who cannot develop an authentic self. They have to mimic those around them. You could say they lack a soul. They lack a stable identity. . . . They are parasitic in order to survive because they can't "talk to them selves" . . they can't relate to themselves. Thus you can't relate to them, because they are not there to relate to. When they are off their game you can feel a void looking into their eyes. You could call call that unmasking.
Am I speaking metaphorically? If the soul is a metaphor, if the self concept is a metaphor, if identity is a metaphor, then yes.
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socks
You reminded me of something in relation to this whole topic, maybe, I think - (and I liked that Love Winner-Chicken Dinner book too)....hold on, story time -
I was once interviewed by HR at a company I worked for regarding a complaint two employees had made against another employee, who was the manager of both of them and up a link in the food chain, mine also. I knew and had worked with all involved and in fact had been in teams managed by both. I did have some specific insight into the complaint and a first hand opinion of it's validity. So they asked me a series of questions in a phone interview about it all and I was very honest in my feedback and the understanding I had, which supported the view of those making the complaint.
The last question I was asked was - did I think the person getting the complaint "could change"......I answered in 2 parts - 1. I can't speak to that, I think that's outside my ability to judge even from a professional standpoint ... and 2. Realistically, "But".....based on my experience with that specific person - no, they likely will not, not without some intervention and guidance...why expect different results if the person has no reason to change, might not see any advantage to changing, and unless a path to change is laid out and agreed to...?
So there's some responsibility in judgment - if I were to say someone HAD to change, if there a path forward? Is there a penalty component to it? Etc. Etc.
When I think of real people and real incidents and things done and the effect it all has on everyone, past events are the easiest - and the hardest - to work through - and EVERYthing is past. EVERYone can have a different perspective and viewpoint of the same event in the past and everyone does, even when it's "the same". It's the nature of reality, as the individual living it understands it to be.
But - we can come to an agreement on it. Like the example of Charles Manson - I could get my Armchair PsychoAnalyst Certificate renewed every year doing a paper on why HE was a nut case.
But that's easy and made all the easier because the entire case history of Manson is - over. He's dead. I'm sifting through the grains of facts in a reality that are like the pixels in a multi million color scan, they can be completely laid out and searched both for what and where they are but also for what they mean in an ongoing PRESENT REALITY.
Anyway, on a practical level I can say with 100 per cent confidence and without the slightest doubt, and with all the gravitas it deserves - V P Weirwille isn't going to change. He's dead. Wha that meant, means and the effects in an ongoing experience with those of us hmmm, affected by him and what he did, well that will continue as long as there's people who care, wind blows and grass grows.
Me, I change all the time, and take my word for it - always for the better. Smarter, faster, better, older, wiser. You can take my word for it. : )
Edited by socksDid you just say he contacts you through a bird? .... Did I just hear you say that?
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T-Bone
Great post, Bolshevik – now we’re getting somewhere!
I don’t have a problem with anything you just said – other than I would like to define some terms a little better and maybe we could find some more common ground.
Authentic self – this is how I understand it when I think of authentic self – it’s basically the you that can be found at your absolute core. It is that part of you that cannot be defined by some job, hobbies, whether you’re married or single, whether you’re a parent or not. It’s a unique blend of your skills, experiences, wisdom, perceptions – stuff that makes you unique and may even drive you to seek ways of making known your thoughts and feelings – rather than what you believe you are supposed to be – going that route, gets into your adaptive self – what you do to survive in an environment that may actually challenge or threaten your authentic self. Example – I put on “Twig-face” when I go to fellowship, I’m all smiles and pleasant to others and say nothing about the elephant in the room – which happens to be squishing the $hit out of my expensive sofa, but it’s rumored he’s interested in the class so mum’s the word….I know, I know The Bible is “The Word”…oh never mind... smoking is outside and if you got ‘em smoke ‘em. Did anyone bring more Postum to Twig?
…where was I ? oh yeah - this gets into psychological stuff like identity and my amateur understand of that is how that relates to our self-image, self-esteem and individuation, and how I as an individual sees myself both as a person and in relation to others…I understand what you’re saying “I believe there are people who cannot develop an authentic self” and I think the operative word in your statement is “develop” – which implies there's some work or effort involved on your part– …a process…change...growth…which necessitates there has to be something there to begin with.
I remember from reading books on psychology about the study of personality – and I re-checked the idea on the Internet and found it mentioned on Wikipedia:
“Personality psychology is a branch of psychology that studies personality and its variation among individuals. It aims to show how people are individually different due to psychological forces. "Personality" is a dynamic and organized set of characteristics possessed by a person that uniquely influences their environment, cognition, emotions, motivations, and behaviors in various situations. The word personality originates from the Latin persona, which means "mask".”
From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_psychology
And you may be pleased to note that “mask” was mentioned in that…Steven Pinker has a fascinating book “The Blank Slate” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blank_Slate – that addresses traditional concepts of human nature and how that effects every aspect of our lives – how we live, how we interact with others, raise our kids, embrace or oppose certain ideologies, etc. One of the main ideas I got from the book is that we are NOT blank slates – but rather we become who we are now through an intertwining process of nature AND nurture.
To back up and revisit vpw, Charles Manson and other tangents like can people like that change – I’ll offer three personal opinions.
1. This first opinion of mine reflects the reality of human nature, some 67 years of interacting with people and also goes along the lines of what Socks talked about – and so honestly in my opinion folks like vpw and Charles Mansion while they were ALIVE – I doubt if they would have changed…
2. My second opinion is from the professional-mental-health-wannabe-part-of me (yeah – in my dreams - I know, I know
) that thinks I should never give up on people – but to always offer help and hope…
3. My third opinion comes from my religious beliefs – from what I understand of the immediate and final picture of the redemptive plans of God. In the “here and now” we have the moral demands of the Bible to guide us in reconciling ourselves to God and to each other…and I’m not shy in admitting how shortsighted I was of God’s ultimate plan and gargantuan love – I’m still processing some ideas of Bell’s book “Love Wins” but you can get some idea of God’s freewill-honoring redemptive plan if you read my comments of the book in the link of my previous post.
So, to sum it up – I think everyone has an authentic self – a core of what makes them who they are – this can be a composite of good and bad stuff – lovely healthy fruit bearing trees and some choking weeds and thorns – actual quantities of each will vary person to person depending on how they “managed” their “garden”. Is there a point of no-return when and where someone neglects self-examination, self-improvement, etc. and they are a lost cause – no authentic self? Not sure – on a practical level, from what I’ve witnessed in life so far – I think so – but I gotta remind myself about Saul’s / Paul’s 180 degree turnaround…It can happen.
The soul: I no longer follow TWI’s trichotomy of humans being body, soul, and spirit – and if you’re an unbeliever you’re just body and soul – an “empty floating by" as LCM put it. To counter what TWI taught, I would have to get into what is the biblical definition of death and the fact that people are still referred to as bearing the image of God in the Old and New Test., long after the fall of man in Genesis 3…I believe the soul is the spiritual part of a person that is believed to give life to the body and in many religions besides Christianity is believed to live forever. So I believe everyone has a soul. It is the image of God - whatever that is - - and because of our fallen nature, it is a tarnished image of God.
When I hear someone say “I looked into his eyes and it’s like he had no soul” – I interpret that as a figure of speech – not to be taken literally – but to simply indicate that the person appears to lack the ability to feel kindness, sympathy and empathy for others or maybe just meaning that person has no qualms about doing whatever the hell they want regardless of how it may impact others.
well...that's my two cents on the subject...ain't sayin' it's right or wrong...just sayin' it's only worth about two cents...in Canadian money it's more or less.
Edited by T-Bonetypos and formatting
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Bolshevik
If a person is missing a leg . . . they can acquire a prosthetic. Effort is not going to replace it with a real one.
In dealing with living forms of these personality disorder . . . pretending like there's a possibility of change is dangerous and naïve. They are dead . . . there is no possibility of change.
(Dialectic Behavior Therapy might help some . . . good luck)
You can read body language . . . and see the mask . . . which should fall under critical thinking skills?
Edited by BolshevikLink to comment
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T-Bone
Well, you’re talking about stuff way out of my league… I am not a mental health specialist – maybe you are (I don’t recall if you’ve mentioned that elsewhere). but if you want to rehash the issues that we’ve already discussed thus far of dealing with people with personality disorders, I lean toward what seems to be (from what I’ve read so far, anyway) a well-founded consensus in psychology that there are incurable personality disorders.
That being said, I would also add that I’ve read about helpful and hopeful research, therapies and medicines in the mental health services (you mentioned one yourself - DBT) . I would not be so callous as to tell someone “There is no possibility of change for you”.
If indeed the mental health specialists say a personality disorder is incurable, but they still continue to do research and develop therapies and medicines – that leads me to think they are reframing the problem – instead of curing the condition, they are creating ways for the patient to deal with it. That is helpful…hopeful…maybe not the kind of change you were expecting but it does change the experience for the patient - hopefully for the better -and for friends and family they interact with as well…maybe daily life becomes more tolerable for all involved.
Edited by T-BoneMental health specialists reframing a problem is certainly a lot more comprehensive than someone like me dabbling in pat answers from the Bible or spewing out my tidbits of pop-psychology - - and what THEY do is so much more helpful because it’s from a different perspectives and specific knowledge and training - depending on the “assortment of specialties” in a scientific or medical team. Maybe it’s like a bunch of MacGyver-types trying to help someone get through or around an immoveable object in their pathway of the route they must take every day. They’re going to try and help the person move on…either go through or get around the immoveable object. Crawl / climb over it? Walk all the way around it? Burrow through it? Buy an ATV and go off-roading around it? Offer to be a friend and walk and talk with them on the detour? Maybe now the person doesn’t feel stuck…or as confused…overwhelmed…something has changed.
typos and formatting
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Bolshevik
I am not going to entertain the idea that they can change without evidence. Not maybe hopefully. The cult leader is void around which many gather. Looking at them with hope is just stupid.
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Bolshevik
Perhaps if there are video of Loser Paul Wierwille his mannerisms could be looked at. I don't have any. Someone once hinted to me they saw his mask.
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Ham
Dead Cult Leaders, hmmmm. Well, I supposed they are supposed to be like the last few Jedi, just dissolve into the Force, no final expenses incurred by the followers. No burial or cremation necessary. No memorial either.
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