"I'm nobody. I'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo. I'm a boxcar and a jug of wine, and a straight razor if you get too close to me" - Charles Manson I don't believe we are divorcing personal responsibility here.
But how do you relate to a person unable to have their own identity? That have masks . . . And we relate to one mask and someone else relates to another.
great question !
and that's what I was getting at in my post:
On 10/22/2021 at 7:14 PM, T-Bone said:
I know it sounds odd for me to say some of that. but I think about a lot of things...to make sense out of it...to try and understand why...sometimes victims or survivors ask "why me?" or "what motivated that person to do this?" ...sometimes there are no answers...hey, I'm not blowing off all that narcissistic stuff you share - - that's great stuff and it does help me understand more about wierwille...and maybe it's my personal scars talking but I don't think he deserves my pity or sympathy - or that he should be viewed as a non-person...but I do believe I owe him (or at least my memory of him ) some empathy... ...sympathy would be from my perspective... ,,,empathy involves me putting myself in his shoes and trying to understanding why... ...again I say sometimes there are no answers...
if we shoot for empathy, that would involve trying to get under their mask...empathy is trying to see things through their eyes. it's to dig deep and try to find out why they see themselves as a nobody, a straight razor, or whatever else Charles Manson said. Look - I'm no psychologist or professional counselor - but do you think people in those capacities tried to help Manson? what did they do? Why don't you find out what therapies, regimens, treatments, etc. they provided for Manson - if any. how about some details? and after you find out all there is to know about what was done to help Manson - or if anything was done - would you please articulate what medical standpoint they administered said therapies from - or if they didn't do anything to or for him while he was incarcerated...
so just to clarify my question - what was the reasoning behind whatever they did or did not do?
Did they view him as a nobody? Did they try to get behind the masks?
Was he offered any type of professional medical and mental health services?
If he was offered any type of professional medical and mental health services - did he refuse them all? or certain ones?
If he accepted any professional medical and mental health services - did he "follow the doctor's orders"? like we do when we go to the doctor with a high blood pressure problem.
was he prescribed any medications for physical or mental health issues? If so - what were they? Did he take his meds?
I think I used the idea of dead because the situation is not curable . . . To try and relate is futile.
To try to empathize as if it would help is dangerous as far as I know.
But the idea they have many masks over a void which the rest if us project onto is important, IMO.
I'm confused - you brought up two different situations there.
if the person is literally dead - then yes the condition is not curable...to try to relate is futile unless you're a necromancer.
if the person is Charles Manson - which I'm assuming you are referring to him when he was alive - I think you should ask any medical professional who has sworn to uphold the Hippocratic oath - ask them how they would view Charles Manson's case - would they say he's not curable? would it be futile for them to try to relate to someone like him?
you said "To try to empathize as if it would help is dangerous as far as I know." - yes that is a distinct possibility - and bearing in mind safety and security protocols that I assume would be in place if we're talking about a legitimate and professional facility - that is something that comes with the territory of the medical profession...for some reason one of my Dad's war stories comes to mind. He was a medic in World War II and received two purple hearts. On one mission, a German sniper was picking off the guy's in my Dad's unit like they were sitting ducks. Our guys finally wounded the German sniper...The captain ordered my Dad to tend to the wounded enemy. The whole time my Dad was patching him up he was handling him so gruffly and growling at him face to face how he was bad for killing and wounding so many of our guys...My Dad would always make me laugh at how overbearing he was to this enemy soldier and treated him like a little wayward schoolboy - the soldiers eyes were as big as cue balls and his facial expression was stiff with fear as my Dad administered some tough medicine -
People relate to the masks, via projection. Unmask them and there's nothing there.
Maybe Sci-Fi might help. Vankin uses Androids and AI. In the future, we may have trouble telling human from non-human. If DATA from Star Trek makes it difficult to define what's human, I mean, an organic being being born of a human but not being human isn't hard to fathom.
People relate to the masks, via projection. Unmask them and there's nothing there. ...Maybe Sci-Fi might help. Vankin uses Androids and AI. In the future, we may have trouble telling human from non-human. If DATA from Star Trek makes it difficult to define what's human, I mean, an organic being being born of a human but not being human isn't hard to fathom.
you're speaking metaphorically - if I put on a mask - say I'm a poser and come on Grease Spot and make like I'm some kind of genius or Bible scholar (we do get people like that here occasionally) - now what happens if Grease Spotters uncover my charade - through various questions and pointing out inaccuracies and contradictions in my little act?
you mean to tell me there's nothing behind my mask?
there is no sentient being putting on airs and interacting with others?
you're speaking metaphorically - if I put on a mask - say I'm a poser and come on Grease Spot and make like I'm some kind of genius or Bible scholar (we do get people like that here occasionally)
Yes I did not mean a literal mask.
Google masks of the narcissist. I didn't claim the term as my own.
But now I'm reminded of the fake smiles of the cult followers. I'm sure these matters relate.
as to who is on first - you were - you started this thread
masks by definition cover something - from the Internet:
"Mask (noun)a covering for all or part of the face, worn as a disguise, or to amuse or terrify other people.
synonyms: disguise · veil · false face · domino · stocking mask · fancy dress · visor · vizard ;a covering worn over the mouth and nose in order to reduce the transmission of infectious agents, or to prevent the inhalation of pollutants and other harmful substances.
synonyms:
matte · photomask · shadow mask · masking · masking tape
a cosmetic preparation spread over the face and left for some time to cleanse and improve the skin.
"this exfoliating mask helps clear your pores and leaves your skin feeling soft and healthy"
a likeness of a person's face in clay or wax, especially one made by taking a mold from the face."
so much for sense and nonsense...night night - I gotta get up early tomorrow
Obviously "mask wearing" is something you, T-Bone, did if you spent time, 12 years?, in TWI. However you had the benefit of calling upon a "before time" in reconnecting with yourself after making the decision to leave.
Obviously "mask wearing" is something you, T-Bone, did if you spent time, 12 years?, in TWI. However you had the benefit of calling upon a "before time" in reconnecting with yourself after making the decision to leave.
Not everyone has that, for various reasons.
Not everyone has what? A before time?
do you mean they were born into TWI?
okay - so instead of reconnecting with who they were before TWI - since they don’t have that before TWI-time - don’t you think it’s possible they can work at discovering their authentic self by looking past the adaptive self - mask - that they assumed ?
I don’t understand the dilemma you’re presenting
never mind my own experience - how is it that a child is raised in a family’s religion but at some point - grows up or simply explores and finds he doesn’t want to follow that anymore?
you’re gonna have to be more specific on “before time” and “ for various reasons” you make it sound like it’s nearly impossible for some people to change their minds…guess what? It happens a lot more than you or I would care to count!
Is was a site I believe by someone raised in a cult. They were quoting another book.
Also this thread points out the walking dead . . . The NPD's excessive fear of death . . . The masks used . . .
I don't know if you are suggesting VPW could have ever changed. The idea he had an authentic self is what I've said is dead. Some call it oscified. Google it.
Is was a site I believe by someone raised in a cult. They were quoting another book.
Also this thread points out the walking dead . . . The NPD's excessive fear of death . . . The masks used . . .
I don't know if you are suggesting VPW could have ever changed. The idea he had an authentic self is what I've said is dead. Some call it oscified. Google it.
Has it ever occurred to you to do the searching and bring what you find to what you try to say so that you can be more clear?
Has it ever occurred to you to do the searching and bring what you find to what you try to say so that you can be more clear?
Of course I have.
Honestly this is starting to feel like taunting.
Some people can't develop a concept of the self. They just can't.
Why does that sound so far out there?
An organization that messes up people's concept of themselves. . . . Because the center of the group lacks a real identity. . . Therefore can't possibly support healthy bonds because it must contrive unhealthy adaptations
Some people can't develop a concept of the self. They just can't.
Why does that sound so far out there?
An organization that messes up people's concept of themselves. . . . Because the center of the group lacks a real identity. . . Therefore can't possibly support healthy bonds because it must contrive unhealthy adaptations
There's a million ways to say it
The center of The Way is death
5 hours ago, Bolshevik said:
Is was a site I believe by someone raised in a cult. They were quoting another book.
Also this thread points out the walking dead . . . The NPD's excessive fear of death . . . The masks used . . .
I don't know if you are suggesting VPW could have ever changed. The idea he had an authentic self is what I've said is dead. Some call it oscified. Google it.
4 hours ago, Bolshevik said:
This "change your mind" stuff is sounding familiar.
Got cancer? Change your mind.
A cult leader is usually a deeply damaged person. So damaged "dead" is an acceptable term in describing them. In a sense it is very literal.
The masks are like putting make up on a corpse.
I haven't said anything in essence that someone else hasn't.
Just applying it here, about a specific cult called The Way, before this specific website disappears in the years to come.
4 hours ago, Bolshevik said:
Death frightens NPDs/cult leaders.
It is the ultimate lack of control.
It is the ultimate change. Which nobody has any control over.
I’ll respond to your last point first:
from the Internet - “Taunting – (adjective) intended to provoke someone in an insulting or contemptuous manner; (verb) provoke or challenge (someone) with insulting remarks; reproach (someone) with something in a contemptuous way.” I've had no intention of insulting you or treating you contemptuously. I apologize if that's the way I come off...I'll try to be more clear in the future.
Then in reverse order:
I’m of the opinion the idea of death frightens most people – since it seems threatens our self-preservation.
Changing your mind is not the same thing as magical thinking / “operating” the law of believing. Changing one’s own mind is a process that occurs innumerable times throughout the day for every human being. That's just how we live, think, react, survive, communicate, learn, express emotions, etc.
Please don’t read anything into my posts or misconstrue my posts to suggest something that they clearly do not say.
This back and forth dialog / one asks and the other responds is how people normally have a conversation. Once again – there’s no taunting going on from my side of the conversation.
Well it looks like we were both up all night posting on the internet so I'll blame it on that.
We're clearly talking past each other.
The concept of self / identity- in the context of a severe personality disorder - which I will assume is not anyone here - is what I am referring to as dead. It took me a 2-3 years to grasp this after first being aware of it. When I find a decent link I will post it.
The narcissist is a False Self, a fictitious character of imagined grandiosity, magnificence and a ‘God like character’ who is above reproach (and all other humans).
There is no ‘real’ human left, because the narcissist deemed his or her inner being as unacceptable, worthless and ineffective to have needs met, hence why the omnipotent character was invented as the replacement.
Tragically for the narcissist this outrageous character created a complete egoic takeover of the disowned, starved, ignored and shrivelled up inner self and is nowcompletelyrunning the show.
Because this fictitious character is not real – it is incredibly fragile, nebular and cracks easily underanypressure. For all its puffed up self-importance, it can’t stand up on its own energy or merits.
Beneath a narcissistic façade, they lacked the sufficient internal structures to maintain cohesiveness, stability, and a positive self-image to provide a stable identity.
Thenarcissist is triple scared of death as compared to the average person.Look at it this way. Narcissists want to be on top of the one who is already on top of the person on top.Death does not discriminate.
Thenarcissist is triple scared of death as compared to the average person.Look at it this way. Narcissists want to be on top of the one who is already on top of the person on top.Death does not discriminate.
Thenarcissist is triple scared of death as compared to the average person.Look at it this way. Narcissists want to be on top of the one who is already on top of the person on top.Death does not discriminate.
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Bolshevik
I did mean "Packages" as a euphemism.
Relating Santa to VPW. VPW had a physical body. How real he was is up for debate.
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T-Bone
great question !
and that's what I was getting at in my post:
if we shoot for empathy, that would involve trying to get under their mask...empathy is trying to see things through their eyes. it's to dig deep and try to find out why they see themselves as a nobody, a straight razor, or whatever else Charles Manson said. Look - I'm no psychologist or professional counselor - but do you think people in those capacities tried to help Manson? what did they do? Why don't you find out what therapies, regimens, treatments, etc. they provided for Manson - if any. how about some details? and after you find out all there is to know about what was done to help Manson - or if anything was done - would you please articulate what medical standpoint they administered said therapies from - or if they didn't do anything to or for him while he was incarcerated...
so just to clarify my question - what was the reasoning behind whatever they did or did not do?
Did they view him as a nobody? Did they try to get behind the masks?
Was he offered any type of professional medical and mental health services?
If he was offered any type of professional medical and mental health services - did he refuse them all? or certain ones?
If he accepted any professional medical and mental health services - did he "follow the doctor's orders"? like we do when we go to the doctor with a high blood pressure problem.
was he prescribed any medications for physical or mental health issues? If so - what were they? Did he take his meds?
Edited by T-Bonetypos and formatting
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Bolshevik
I think I used the idea of dead because the situation is not curable . . . To try and relate is futile.
To try to empathize as if it would help is dangerous as far as I know.
But the idea they have many masks over a void which the rest if us project onto is important, IMO.
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T-Bone
I'm confused - you brought up two different situations there.
if the person is literally dead - then yes the condition is not curable...to try to relate is futile unless you're a necromancer.
if the person is Charles Manson - which I'm assuming you are referring to him when he was alive - I think you should ask any medical professional who has sworn to uphold the Hippocratic oath - ask them how they would view Charles Manson's case - would they say he's not curable? would it be futile for them to try to relate to someone like him?
you said "To try to empathize as if it would help is dangerous as far as I know." - yes that is a distinct possibility - and bearing in mind safety and security protocols that I assume would be in place if we're talking about a legitimate and professional facility - that is something that comes with the territory of the medical profession...for some reason one of my Dad's war stories comes to mind. He was a medic in World War II and received two purple hearts. On one mission, a German sniper was picking off the guy's in my Dad's unit like they were sitting ducks. Our guys finally wounded the German sniper...The captain ordered my Dad to tend to the wounded enemy. The whole time my Dad was patching him up he was handling him so gruffly and growling at him face to face how he was bad for killing and wounding so many of our guys...My Dad would always make me laugh at how overbearing he was to this enemy soldier and treated him like a little wayward schoolboy - the soldiers eyes were as big as cue balls and his facial expression was stiff with fear as my Dad administered some tough medicine -
Edited by T-Bonerevision
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Bolshevik
Onto the mask and behind it?
People relate to the masks, via projection. Unmask them and there's nothing there.
Maybe Sci-Fi might help. Vankin uses Androids and AI. In the future, we may have trouble telling human from non-human. If DATA from Star Trek makes it difficult to define what's human, I mean, an organic being being born of a human but not being human isn't hard to fathom.
Edited by BolshevikWhere's the humanity?
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T-Bone
you're speaking metaphorically - if I put on a mask - say I'm a poser and come on Grease Spot and make like I'm some kind of genius or Bible scholar (we do get people like that here occasionally) - now what happens if Grease Spotters uncover my charade - through various questions and pointing out inaccuracies and contradictions in my little act?
you mean to tell me there's nothing behind my mask?
there is no sentient being putting on airs and interacting with others?
Edited by T-Bonerevision
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Bolshevik
Yes I did not mean a literal mask.
Google masks of the narcissist. I didn't claim the term as my own.
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T-Bone
Yes I know what you meant - I don't need to google masks of a narcissist.
but you said... and I quote "Onto the mask and behind it? People relate to the masks, via projection. Unmask them and there's nothing there. "
so WHO is putting on the mask?!?!
who or what is the mask covering up?!?!
the "projection" has a source - does it not?
you do realize that it takes a sentient being - a real person - in a willful act to project an image...a mask to be seen by others
how do you think FBI and police profilers work to uncover bad guys posing as someone else?
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Bolshevik
Who is on first.
Not sure the mask is actually covering anything.
But now I'm reminded of the fake smiles of the cult followers. I'm sure these matters relate.
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T-Bone
as to who is on first - you were - you started this thread
masks by definition cover something - from the Internet:
"Mask (noun) a covering for all or part of the face, worn as a disguise, or to amuse or terrify other people.
synonyms: disguise · veil · false face · domino · stocking mask · fancy dress · visor · vizard ;a covering worn over the mouth and nose in order to reduce the transmission of infectious agents, or to prevent the inhalation of pollutants and other harmful substances.
synonyms:
matte · photomask · shadow mask · masking · masking tape
a cosmetic preparation spread over the face and left for some time to cleanse and improve the skin.
"this exfoliating mask helps clear your pores and leaves your skin feeling soft and healthy"
a likeness of a person's face in clay or wax, especially one made by taking a mold from the face."
so much for sense and nonsense...night night - I gotta get up early tomorrow
Edited by T-Boneoh well
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Bolshevik
Yeah I'm not following you at all.
Obviously "mask wearing" is something you, T-Bone, did if you spent time, 12 years?, in TWI. However you had the benefit of calling upon a "before time" in reconnecting with yourself after making the decision to leave.
Not everyone has that, for various reasons.
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T-Bone
Not everyone has what? A before time?
do you mean they were born into TWI?
okay - so instead of reconnecting with who they were before TWI - since they don’t have that before TWI-time - don’t you think it’s possible they can work at discovering their authentic self by looking past the adaptive self - mask - that they assumed ?
I don’t understand the dilemma you’re presenting
never mind my own experience - how is it that a child is raised in a family’s religion but at some point - grows up or simply explores and finds he doesn’t want to follow that anymore?
you’re gonna have to be more specific on “before time” and “ for various reasons” you make it sound like it’s nearly impossible for some people to change their minds…guess what? It happens a lot more than you or I would care to count!
Edited by T-BoneRevision
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Bolshevik
Yes T-bone, I read that in a book or website. If I find the source I will post it.
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Bolshevik
Is was a site I believe by someone raised in a cult. They were quoting another book.
Also this thread points out the walking dead . . . The NPD's excessive fear of death . . . The masks used . . .
I don't know if you are suggesting VPW could have ever changed. The idea he had an authentic self is what I've said is dead. Some call it oscified. Google it.
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Bolshevik
This "change your mind" stuff is sounding familiar.
Got cancer? Change your mind.
A cult leader is usually a deeply damaged person. So damaged "dead" is an acceptable term in describing them. In a sense it is very literal.
The masks are like putting make up on a corpse.
I haven't said anything in essence that someone else hasn't.
Just applying it here, about a specific cult called The Way, before this specific website disappears in the years to come.
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Bolshevik
Death frightens NPDs/cult leaders.
It is the ultimate lack of control.
It is the ultimate change. Which nobody has any control over.
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Rocky
Has it ever occurred to you to do the searching and bring what you find to what you try to say so that you can be more clear?
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Bolshevik
Of course I have.
Honestly this is starting to feel like taunting.
Some people can't develop a concept of the self. They just can't.
Why does that sound so far out there?
An organization that messes up people's concept of themselves. . . . Because the center of the group lacks a real identity. . . Therefore can't possibly support healthy bonds because it must contrive unhealthy adaptations
There's a million ways to say it
The center of The Way is death
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T-Bone
I’ll respond to your last point first:
from the Internet - “Taunting – (adjective) intended to provoke someone in an insulting or contemptuous manner; (verb) provoke or challenge (someone) with insulting remarks; reproach (someone) with something in a contemptuous way.” I've had no intention of insulting you or treating you contemptuously. I apologize if that's the way I come off...I'll try to be more clear in the future.
Then in reverse order:
I’m of the opinion the idea of death frightens most people – since it seems threatens our self-preservation.
Changing your mind is not the same thing as magical thinking / “operating” the law of believing. Changing one’s own mind is a process that occurs innumerable times throughout the day for every human being. That's just how we live, think, react, survive, communicate, learn, express emotions, etc.
Please don’t read anything into my posts or misconstrue my posts to suggest something that they clearly do not say.
Edited by T-BoneThis back and forth dialog / one asks and the other responds is how people normally have a conversation. Once again – there’s no taunting going on from my side of the conversation.
typos and formatting
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Bolshevik
Well it looks like we were both up all night posting on the internet so I'll blame it on that.
We're clearly talking past each other.
The concept of self / identity- in the context of a severe personality disorder - which I will assume is not anyone here - is what I am referring to as dead. It took me a 2-3 years to grasp this after first being aware of it. When I find a decent link I will post it.
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Bolshevik
just found this link . . . see not a person . . . "no real human left" . . . like dead
Edited by Bolshevikzombie mode
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Bolshevik
unstable self editing
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Bolshevik
like a vampire, I suck at this
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Bolshevik
https://psychcentral.com/blog/discoveries/2018/05/narcissists-7-weaknesses-reveal#4
Edited by Bolsheviktriple scared like the Trinity
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