Some of them got an entire ocean for their final domain while VPW just got a stinkin' little fountain. Seems about right.
A place for dead folks has living waters. Something weird about that. Particularly if the dead are not alive in that fantasy world.
Scattering ashes into ocean I believe was mentioned as a way to prevent followers from . . . following more . . .
VPW is trying to extract supply from beyond the grave??
Might have to have ask greasespot to illuminate on the fountain's history . . . I remember there was a whole video about it once. Not-Your-Uncle Fuzzy Wuzzy died and VPW showed his bravery and strength by crying while giving orders for plans for the fountain?
VPW being buried at or under a fountain in/by/near a pond made me think of those (worse) cult leaders who got dumped in the ocean. See, VPW even plagiarised a dead cult leader buried at sea - had to have his own little sea to be buried in.
A place for dead folks has living waters. Something weird about that. Particularly if the dead are not alive in that fantasy world.
Scattering ashes into ocean I believe was mentioned as a way to prevent followers from . . . following more . . .
VPW is trying to extract supply from beyond the grave??
Might have to have ask greasespot to illuminate on the fountain's history . . . I remember there was a whole video about it once. Not-Your-Uncle Fuzzy Wuzzy died and VPW showed his bravery and strength by crying while giving orders for plans for the fountain?
3 hours ago, T-Bone said:
maybe that's the complete answer to the question asked in one of his books "Are The Dead Alive Now?"...so the complete answer is no - just wierwille.
3 hours ago, Bolshevik said:
NPDs can be viewed as dead. Their true self died long, long ago leaving the false self, which requires mirrors and supply to maintain.
They also maintain a heightened fear of death . . . it would seem natural VPW would gravitate toward that topic.
I didn't see VPW in person, but if you look at the video of the other cult leaders you have a range of faces to see, a range of narcissist masks.
1 hour ago, T-Bone said:
Are you saying that the cult followers are maintaining it?
36 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:
That wasn't the emphasis. The false self being unstable was.
But no, the cult leader can't thrive without followers attention. That's why there is a cult.
Sorry my mistake. I thought you were talking about cult followers maintaining the “spirit” of the cult leader after he or she has died.
maybe that's the complete answer to the question asked in one of his books "Are The Dead Alive Now?"...so the complete answer is no - just wierwille.
I guess we can get more macabre. Cults often die with the leader. At times the leaders take the followers with them --> Kind of the attitude "If I can't have these followers, no one can". NPD hates you and needs you at the same time, and doesn't want you happily following someone else.
What did VPW want with an aqueous shrine and vague epitaph? For people to cry to death over him?
Later followers argue who's fault it was VPW died (POOP), LCM and others often screams "The dead are NOT alive" . . . because . . .
The video mentioned the idea od preventing "carrying on the spirit" yes.
Sorry I was more focused on the cult leader's interior.
But it does always come back to the followers too, because what are they following? As close to real zombies as you can get.
It's frightening because people are relating to a being that isn't really there.
The cult leader is the living dead, and followers are enamoured with this empty being. Just wrapping my head around that.
Maybe the concept of "carrying on the spirit" is more elementary than it might seem. I don't think we're talking about "spirit" in a so-called spiritual sense so much as carrying on the leaders ideology. When the leader is alive, they can actively enforce the existence of that ideology. Once they are dead, unless the ideology was deeply ingrained in its adherents, it will eventually die out. Sometimes, zealous followers will continue to promote and advance said ideology. This is what I would call "carrying on the spirit". The fountain, in a tangible way, keeps the memory of what it represents in the conscious/subconscious thinking of Way followers. This is just my opinion.
Maybe the concept of "carrying on the spirit" is more elementary than it might seem. I don't think we're talking about "spirit" in a so-called spiritual sense so much as carrying on the leaders ideology. When the leader is alive, they can actively enforce the existence of that ideology. Once they are dead, unless the ideology was deeply ingrained in its adherents, it will eventually die out. Sometimes, zealous followers will continue to promote and advance said ideology. This is what I would call "carrying on the spirit". The fountain, in a tangible way, keeps the memory of what it represents in the conscious/subconscious thinking of Way followers. This is just my opinion.
I agree "spirit" is being used in the sense of group identity here, nothing ethereal meant.
I mentioned in the first post the body language of the cult leaders. NPDs wear masks. There's no man behind the curtain . . . there's a void instead. The followers are in a way, interacting with, worshiping, adoring, . . . nothing.
Like realizing there is no Santa Claus or Tooth Fairy?
Christmas was a curse word and Santa was to point out how lucky one is to be raised in a cult. Other children are lied too, but not us.
I do have to imagine what you mean.
I think LCM would rage "Christ-MASS . . Christ-MASS" . . . associated it with death along with the crucifix by his reasoning . . . again the preoccupation with death.
Edited by Bolshevik LCM . . . when gotta rant you gotta rant
Well I don't think Santa delivered packages to the Motor Coach.
More like a body on life support. Like brain-dead. But identity dead. Personality dead.
A corpse is not a person. VPW was not a person. Animated, but non-existent.
Don’t think I follow you…if you’re speaking metaphorically I might understand that…maybe I'm reading you wrong but it seems to me the way you put that sort of divorces the person from any responsibility...i think it would be odd to say "a non-person did this to me" or "investigators at the crime scene have said apparently a non-existent broke into the apartment and stabbed the victim nineteen times - then used the victim's own blood to paint a message on the wall - ' No One Did it'."
i think usually most justice systems acknowledge personal culpability - - and some systems reflect the principles of justice and equity in the Ten Commandments and many of the O.T. civil by-laws; and in that regard each person is viewed as a volitional being. wierwille may have been an enigma personality-wise to many folks but - if there is a higher power that resolves inequity and injustices, then he will be held accountable someday for what he did as a person (created in God's image) while existing in our world.
I’m no psychologist nor a mental health expert - but I think we're missing something - we're missing what it is to be a human being (created in God's image) and to treat others as human beings (created in God's image) - if we refer to - or treat someone like they are a non-person. That’s dehumanizing in my opinion - it's degrading - we deprive someone of human qualities, personality...dignity.
Sure, we can vilify and demonize cult-leaders for the horrendous things they've done - but I don’t write off anyone like there's no hope or help for them - like those cult-leaders did - God forbid you were a Trinitarian or anyone outside TWI - wierwille or LCM would spin some conspiratorial yarn about the god of this world and his five-Star generals and hierarchy of devil spirits and wrong-seed folks …so they often labeled movers and shakers of the world as wrong-seed...or for any other folks they didn't like - they were possessed, tricked by the devil or totally lost in oblivion because they "no longer stand on the Word" like wierwille and LCM use to pontificate about anytime someone crossed them or didn't fit into their screwy self-centered ideology….after reading Rob Bell’s book “Love Wins” - my views on how to handle evildoers is going through some changes…with God there is always hope…
I’ve watched several videos of Vaknin speaking about narcissistic personality disorders and he has spoken and wrote a bunch of self-help stuff…that leads me to think that there’s hope for even narcissists.
…and in this life we never really know what goes on deep down inside of someone…maybe if wierwille wasn’t held in such high regard by everyone - which afforded him many insulating layers of protection , and with mind-tricks like “the lockbox” , character assassinations and labeling any of his victims as being possessed and trying to attack his “ministry”... Just imagine if all those cloaking "devices" were removed... there was no internet or me-too movement back then! ...imagine if he did get exposed for the megalomaniac predatory narcissistic hypocrite that he was ...who knows what would follow - besides prison time and many civil lawsuits - maybe he would have had access to professional mental health services.
One of the justice reforms I hear about in some cities is that they are looking into getting mental health professionals involved to work with police on certain calls .
mental health issues are no excuse for bad behavior - but a reason to seek professional medical help.
I’m not trying to argue with you - but sometimes this talk seems like we’re being cold and clinical morticians discussing how the “stiff” died - we forget the “stiff” was a person…and something about divorcing the person from responsibility makes me think of a funny thing comedian Jake Johanssen said “ guns don’t kill people…it’s the bullets inside those guns that kill people. Now, give me all your money or I’ll shove these bullets into your head.”
NPDs can be viewed as dead. Their true self died long, long ago leaving the false self, which requires mirrors and supply to maintain.
They also maintain a heightened fear of death . . . it would seem natural VPW would gravitate toward that topic.
I didn't see VPW in person, but if you look at the video of the other cult leaders you have a range of faces to see, a range of narcissist masks.
I have interacted with wierwille many times when he visited our campus in Rome City...and please don't take this the wrong way...but no matter how much you may analyze and dissect someone's false-self versus their former true-self - for me it still doesn't negate the fact that he affected me in a really big way ...mentally...emotionally...on so many levels...I'm talking deeply personal stuff - from direct interaction - person to person! And that's just from my experience as a guy. I can't even imagine what it's like being a woman and dealing with wierwille as a sexual predator...what little I know of psychology I understand that our sexuality is one of the most intimate and possibly more vulnerable aspects of our being - and some predatory creep messing with that can really traumatize a person...and him supposedly being "a man of god" - what a number that must do to someone's head...emotions...faith... ...I mean a sexual predator masquerading as a man of the cloth ...that's some next-level-$hit !
I don't hate the man...There's even things I liked about him and have some funny memories when I interacted with him...and maybe that's why a betrayal is so hurtful, I guess... when someone you admire...respect...love...trust... but then they wind up stabbing you in the back.
I know it sounds odd for me to say some of that. but I think about a lot of things...to make sense out of it...to try and understand why...sometimes victims or survivors ask "why me?" or "what motivated that person to do this?" ...sometimes there are no answers...hey, I'm not blowing off all that narcissistic stuff you share - - that's great stuff and it does help me understand more about wierwille...and maybe it's my personal scars talking but I don't think he deserves my pity or sympathy - or that he should be viewed as a non-person...but I do believe I owe him (or at least my memory of him ) some empathy...
...sympathy would be from my perspective...
,,,empathy involves me putting myself in his shoes and trying to understanding why... ...again I say sometimes there are no answers...
when dealing with big trauma, crime or senseless violence people deal with it in so many different ways...put up more defenses...disconnect...become activists...develop new safety and security measures...make new laws...for me, some big takeaways from my 12 years of being in a harmful and controlling cult: learning to think for myself in matters of faith, being brave enough to voice my dissent in matters of morality, justice or any conscientious objections, to avoid the seduction of groupthink and to be more attentive to red flags that pop up when charlatans and fanatics cross my path...I'm done with cult-leaders (dead or alive) and harmful and controlling cults.
and maybe that's why a betrayal is so hurtful, I guess... when someone you admire...respect...love...trust... but then they wind up stabbing you in the back.
After some thought, I wanted to revise this “…that's why a betrayal is so hurtful, I guess... when someone you admire...respect...love...trust... but then they wind up stabbing you in the back.” I don’t think backstabbing really expresses the truly methodical and insidious nature of wierwille’s betrayal. It was more like a slow-acting poison – as I sipped…drank…guzzled down the Kool-Aid (wierwille’s twisted ideology) – more of my personhood was compromised…this gets into that malignant narcissism stuff that Bolshevik has shared about…the malignant narcissist cult-leader undermines the cognitive and interpersonal functions of starry-eyed followers – basically dehumanizing them.
I don't think calling someone dead is dehumanizing. They are dead and lack the abilities of the living. That's why they become so capable at behaviors many wouldn't fathom.
To unmask them. To see behind the mask, is too see the void.
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Bolshevik
Maybe you're in this situation and this video can be somewhat of a helpful guide. . . . .Cremate and spread into the ocean.
I thought seeing the body language of these guys and gals is often intriguing. I had not heard of some of them.
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waysider
Kinda scary that I remember all of them and yet, somehow, I got duped into a cult, myself.
Some of them got an entire ocean for their final domain while VPW just got a stinkin' little fountain. Seems about right.
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Bolshevik
This guy also got tossed into the sea.
Irrational Acts.
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Bolshevik
Well this guy is dead too, if you like math, you're in a cult, I guess.
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waysider
Beans, beans the sacred fruit.
The more you eat,
The more you .......gnaw on the heads of your dead ancestors.
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Bolshevik
A place for dead folks has living waters. Something weird about that. Particularly if the dead are not alive in that fantasy world.
Scattering ashes into ocean I believe was mentioned as a way to prevent followers from . . . following more . . .
VPW is trying to extract supply from beyond the grave??
Might have to have ask greasespot to illuminate on the fountain's history . . . I remember there was a whole video about it once. Not-Your-Uncle Fuzzy Wuzzy died and VPW showed his bravery and strength by crying while giving orders for plans for the fountain?
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T-Bone
maybe that's the complete answer to the question asked in one of his books "Are The Dead Alive Now?"...so the complete answer is no - just wierwille.
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Bolshevik
NPDs can be viewed as dead. Their true self died long, long ago leaving the false self, which requires mirrors and supply to maintain.
They also maintain a heightened fear of death . . . it would seem natural VPW would gravitate toward that topic.
I didn't see VPW in person, but if you look at the video of the other cult leaders you have a range of faces to see, a range of narcissist masks.
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T-Bone
Are you saying that the cult followers are maintaining it?
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Twinky
VPW being buried at or under a fountain in/by/near a pond made me think of those (worse) cult leaders who got dumped in the ocean. See, VPW even plagiarised a dead cult leader buried at sea - had to have his own little sea to be buried in.
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Bolshevik
That wasn't the emphasis. The false self being unstable was.
But no, the cult leader can't thrive without followers attention. That's why there is a cult.
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T-Bone
Sorry my mistake. I thought you were talking about cult followers maintaining the “spirit” of the cult leader after he or she has died.
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Bolshevik
The video mentioned the idea od preventing "carrying on the spirit" yes.
Sorry I was more focused on the cult leader's interior.
But it does always come back to the followers too, because what are they following? As close to real zombies as you can get.
It's frightening because people are relating to a being that isn't really there.
The cult leader is the living dead, and followers are enamoured with this empty being. Just wrapping my head around that.
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Bolshevik
I guess we can get more macabre. Cults often die with the leader. At times the leaders take the followers with them --> Kind of the attitude "If I can't have these followers, no one can". NPD hates you and needs you at the same time, and doesn't want you happily following someone else.
What did VPW want with an aqueous shrine and vague epitaph? For people to cry to death over him?
Later followers argue who's fault it was VPW died (POOP), LCM and others often screams "The dead are NOT alive" . . . because . . .
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waysider
Maybe the concept of "carrying on the spirit" is more elementary than it might seem. I don't think we're talking about "spirit" in a so-called spiritual sense so much as carrying on the leaders ideology. When the leader is alive, they can actively enforce the existence of that ideology. Once they are dead, unless the ideology was deeply ingrained in its adherents, it will eventually die out. Sometimes, zealous followers will continue to promote and advance said ideology. This is what I would call "carrying on the spirit". The fountain, in a tangible way, keeps the memory of what it represents in the conscious/subconscious thinking of Way followers. This is just my opinion.
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Bolshevik
I agree "spirit" is being used in the sense of group identity here, nothing ethereal meant.
I mentioned in the first post the body language of the cult leaders. NPDs wear masks. There's no man behind the curtain . . . there's a void instead. The followers are in a way, interacting with, worshiping, adoring, . . . nothing.
To realize that I think can be shocking.
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waysider
Like realizing there is no Santa Claus or Tooth Fairy?
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Bolshevik
Well I don't think Santa delivered packages to the Motor Coach.
More like a body on life support. Like brain-dead. But identity dead. Personality dead.
A corpse is not a person. VPW was not a person. Animated, but non-existent.
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Bolshevik
Christmas was a curse word and Santa was to point out how lucky one is to be raised in a cult. Other children are lied too, but not us.
I do have to imagine what you mean.
I think LCM would rage "Christ-MASS . . Christ-MASS" . . . associated it with death along with the crucifix by his reasoning . . . again the preoccupation with death.
Edited by BolshevikLCM . . . when gotta rant you gotta rant
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Rocky
Are you sure about that? My understanding is he delivered very young, pretty packages, not limited to the winter solstice festival.
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T-Bone
Don’t think I follow you…if you’re speaking metaphorically I might understand that…maybe I'm reading you wrong but it seems to me the way you put that sort of divorces the person from any responsibility...i think it would be odd to say "a non-person did this to me" or "investigators at the crime scene have said apparently a non-existent broke into the apartment and stabbed the victim nineteen times - then used the victim's own blood to paint a message on the wall - ' No One Did it' ."
i think usually most justice systems acknowledge personal culpability - - and some systems reflect the principles of justice and equity in the Ten Commandments and many of the O.T. civil by-laws; and in that regard each person is viewed as a volitional being. wierwille may have been an enigma personality-wise to many folks but - if there is a higher power that resolves inequity and injustices, then he will be held accountable someday for what he did as a person (created in God's image) while existing in our world.
I’m no psychologist nor a mental health expert - but I think we're missing something - we're missing what it is to be a human being (created in God's image) and to treat others as human beings (created in God's image) - if we refer to - or treat someone like they are a non-person. That’s dehumanizing in my opinion - it's degrading - we deprive someone of human qualities, personality...dignity.
Sure, we can vilify and demonize cult-leaders for the horrendous things they've done - but I don’t write off anyone like there's no hope or help for them - like those cult-leaders did - God forbid you were a Trinitarian or anyone outside TWI - wierwille or LCM would spin some conspiratorial yarn about the god of this world and his five-Star generals and hierarchy of devil spirits and wrong-seed folks …so they often labeled movers and shakers of the world as wrong-seed...or for any other folks they didn't like - they were possessed, tricked by the devil or totally lost in oblivion because they "no longer stand on the Word" like wierwille and LCM use to pontificate about anytime someone crossed them or didn't fit into their screwy self-centered ideology….after reading Rob Bell’s book “Love Wins” - my views on how to handle evildoers is going through some changes…with God there is always hope…
I’ve watched several videos of Vaknin speaking about narcissistic personality disorders and he has spoken and wrote a bunch of self-help stuff…that leads me to think that there’s hope for even narcissists.
…and in this life we never really know what goes on deep down inside of someone…maybe if wierwille wasn’t held in such high regard by everyone - which afforded him many insulating layers of protection , and with mind-tricks like “the lockbox” , character assassinations and labeling any of his victims as being possessed and trying to attack his “ministry”... Just imagine if all those cloaking "devices" were removed... there was no internet or me-too movement back then! ...imagine if he did get exposed for the megalomaniac predatory narcissistic hypocrite that he was ...who knows what would follow - besides prison time and many civil lawsuits - maybe he would have had access to professional mental health services.
One of the justice reforms I hear about in some cities is that they are looking into getting mental health professionals involved to work with police on certain calls .
mental health issues are no excuse for bad behavior - but a reason to seek professional medical help.
I’m not trying to argue with you - but sometimes this talk seems like we’re being cold and clinical morticians discussing how the “stiff” died - we forget the “stiff” was a person…and something about divorcing the person from responsibility makes me think of a funny thing comedian Jake Johanssen said “ guns don’t kill people…it’s the bullets inside those guns that kill people. Now, give me all your money or I’ll shove these bullets into your head.”
Edited by T-BoneRevision
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T-Bone
I have interacted with wierwille many times when he visited our campus in Rome City...and please don't take this the wrong way...but no matter how much you may analyze and dissect someone's false-self versus their former true-self - for me it still doesn't negate the fact that he affected me in a really big way ...mentally...emotionally...on so many levels...I'm talking deeply personal stuff - from direct interaction - person to person! And that's just from my experience as a guy. I can't even imagine what it's like being a woman and dealing with wierwille as a sexual predator...what little I know of psychology I understand that our sexuality is one of the most intimate and possibly more vulnerable aspects of our being - and some predatory creep messing with that can really traumatize a person...and him supposedly being "a man of god" - what a number that must do to someone's head...emotions...faith... ...I mean a sexual predator masquerading as a man of the cloth ...that's some next-level-$hit !
I don't hate the man...There's even things I liked about him and have some funny memories when I interacted with him...and maybe that's why a betrayal is so hurtful, I guess... when someone you admire...respect...love...trust... but then they wind up stabbing you in the back.
I know it sounds odd for me to say some of that. but I think about a lot of things...to make sense out of it...to try and understand why...sometimes victims or survivors ask "why me?" or "what motivated that person to do this?" ...sometimes there are no answers...hey, I'm not blowing off all that narcissistic stuff you share - - that's great stuff and it does help me understand more about wierwille...and maybe it's my personal scars talking but I don't think he deserves my pity or sympathy - or that he should be viewed as a non-person...but I do believe I owe him (or at least my memory of him ) some empathy...
...sympathy would be from my perspective...
,,,empathy involves me putting myself in his shoes and trying to understanding why... ...again I say sometimes there are no answers...
when dealing with big trauma, crime or senseless violence people deal with it in so many different ways...put up more defenses...disconnect...become activists...develop new safety and security measures...make new laws...for me, some big takeaways from my 12 years of being in a harmful and controlling cult: learning to think for myself in matters of faith, being brave enough to voice my dissent in matters of morality, justice or any conscientious objections, to avoid the seduction of groupthink and to be more attentive to red flags that pop up when charlatans and fanatics cross my path...I'm done with cult-leaders (dead or alive) and harmful and controlling cults.
Edited by T-Bonerevision
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T-Bone
After some thought, I wanted to revise this “…that's why a betrayal is so hurtful, I guess... when someone you admire...respect...love...trust... but then they wind up stabbing you in the back.” I don’t think backstabbing really expresses the truly methodical and insidious nature of wierwille’s betrayal. It was more like a slow-acting poison – as I sipped…drank…guzzled down the Kool-Aid (wierwille’s twisted ideology) – more of my personhood was compromised…this gets into that malignant narcissism stuff that Bolshevik has shared about…the malignant narcissist cult-leader undermines the cognitive and interpersonal functions of starry-eyed followers – basically dehumanizing them.
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Bolshevik
I don't think calling someone dead is dehumanizing. They are dead and lack the abilities of the living. That's why they become so capable at behaviors many wouldn't fathom.
To unmask them. To see behind the mask, is too see the void.
And when you stare to long into the void . . .
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