nounA bittersweet longing for things, persons, or situations of the past.
nounThe condition of being homesick; homesickness.
from The Century Dictionary.
nounMorbid longing to return to one's home or native country; homesickness, especially in its severe forms, producing derangement of mental and physical functions.
Nostalgia......
I'm reminded of a song that spoke of nostalgia, a desire to return to the town where someone grew up, only years later, after everything had changed. This is a translation, so the lyrics don't rhyme in English.
"I sing this zamba to my distant land, warm little town of our interior. Burning land that inspires my love, clay-ey, parched, with a burning sun. Remembering that burning land, my voice echoes, 'How hot!'
I do remember you, my pretty little town, with your damp and dense air by daylight. Warm moonlights from a fantasy, full of magic, of an infinite singing, and the singing of your fresh little stream- except in the ten months of drought.
My beloved town has always been very calm, except that time the hurricane passed by. Old lands, how far away you are. My dear land, my sweet village. I'm afraid you have changed since the lasted volcanic eruption.
Land that, until yesterday, sheltered my childhood, I always remember you with my heart. Even if that sweet little stream today is a boiling torrent of lava that fortunately, sometimes quenches at the arrival of the time of flooding.
The hungry wolves shake while howling, when bitten by fierce mosquitoes. It's impossible to sleep because of the cries of thousands of vultures that darken the sky. Sooner or later, an earthquake will appear, and at sunset, it rains meteors.
If I could only go back to my little town, my old town to which I've never returned, if I could only go back there, to the town that always calls me, that always waits for me, if I could go back to that town....I wouldn't even do it if I was drunk!"
=====================================
I think that song sums up how a lot of people feel about returning to twi for the NOSTALGIA.
A harem is part of a political system where a number of children are born by numerous women and expected to execute each other until one remains for the right to rule.
A harem is part of a political system where a number of children are born by numerous women and expected to execute each other until one remains for the right to rule.
Heh. Pretty sure that's not the same usage of the word.
Although there does seem to be some parallel in them "executing" each other for the right to rule.
Plenty of former Wafers know that there "allegedly" were women in the early years of the "ministry" and then ones in The Way Corps who were Wierwille's "girls." He seduced them. One wrote her story about that in, Losing The Way. Others have told me themselves. This is not a new revelation on GSC.
Not the "good old days," as far as I can tell. It's the current older "leadership" who are nostalgic and think this event will inject energetic new leaders/believers into its withering cause.
Indeed. That's what I was getting at. The decision makers (after having deposed Rosa-lie) trying to figure out what MIGHT work to rejuvenate the dying sect.
Indeed. That's what I was getting at. The decision makers (after having deposed Rosa-lie) trying to figure out what MIGHT work to rejuvenate the dying sect.
In the abuse cycle. . . Idealization switches to devaluation so swiftly by the narcissist that the abused, in shock, desperately cling to the return to the idealization phase. Missing those initial times, thinking those experiences were real, thinking it is something they did wrong, thinking there is something they can do fix the situation. Not understanding the internal world of the narcissist operates to the beat of it's own fantasy drum.
When people cling to hope for change I tend to think they are make themselves open to the hoovering.
And perhaps some are so used the cycle it is the only thing they know.
In the abuse cycle. . . Ideation switches to devaluation so swiftly by the narcissist that the abused, in shock, desperately cling to the return to the ideation phase. Missing those initial times, thinking those experiences were real, thinking it is something they did wrong, thinking there is something they can do fix the situation. Not understanding the internal world of the narcissist operates to the beat of it's own fantasy drum.
When people cling to hope for change I tend to think they are make themselves open to the hoovering.
And perhaps some are so used the cycle it is the only thing they know.
This I think gets back to healing from narcissistic abuse involves confronting ones own narcissism.
VPW told everyone they were superior to Jesus via his teaches . . . God loves you you are the best . . Blah blah blah . . . Idealization idealization idealization.
I just love nostalgia ... it's so cozy and comforting and ... oops ... other stuff that's not so great. In case you missed the article I wrote on this topic (posted here on GSC back in 2009), here you go. Enjoy.
I just love nostalgia ... it's so cozy and comforting and ... oops ... other stuff that's not so great. In case you missed the article I wrote on this topic (posted here on GSC back in 2009), here you go. Enjoy.
It seems fair to surmise the "powers that be" in both the R and R group and in TWI cling to the faulty premises of the good old days of Wierwille's faulty research.
Wayworld delusions of grandeur. Some people just want the attention why else would you do a so called Limb? I know narcissism would be no 1 wanting people to adore you.no.2. A stream of income you can skim from Yeah ya know they did no.3No one is spiritually responsible to someone else that is a lie."They don't own you no matter what they say" Take it still on Google/u tube music.Sums it up
Wayworld delusions of grandeur. Some people just want the attention why else would you do a so called Limb? I know narcissism would be no 1 wanting people to adore you.no.2. A stream of income you can skim from Yeah ya know they did no.3No one is spiritually responsible to someone else that is a lie."They don't own you no matter what they say" Take it still on Google/u tube music.Sums it up
I know first hand the inflated ego that comes with a "major assignment" and all the gassing up that comes with it. My head size grew exponentially the first year or so of my cabinet position and it took me purposefully recodnizing that I was egotistical and purposefully changing my direction. I was never like that but accepted the position with an ungaurded mindset to purposefully avoid that massive ego that they engender. I agree wholeheartedly: Most way corps who take on a so called major assignment are very egotistical and very attention seeking. And the way corps are definately adored as great men of God or whatever....until they go cross purposes to the board of directors...then you aren't even spoken of in public.
Plenty of former Wafers know that there "allegedly" were women in the early years of the "ministry" and then ones in The Way Corps who were Wierwille's "girls." He seduced them. One wrote her story about that in, Losing The Way. Others have told me themselves. This is not a new revelation on GSC.
Some of them were pretty good at hiding it too and lying about it. Not Kris, specifically but there are others who today want to holler back to the hooting' an' tootin' they did then and act as if they didn't get anything in return - I'm not one to name names of people that could be harmed by it and I don't act where I don't have or want permission to - but - the fact is there were both men and women who were as opportunistic as VPW - and if you got caught in their web of bull sh it they were good at hanging you out to dry behind their curtain of deceit. But some of those that came and went and some who stayed got exactly what they wanted out of it.
I came into the Way Corps and working there with a past I was trying to put behind me and grow out of. People often mistook that for innocence. I won't pretend I was some kind of a bad bad man in my day but I'd been around the block already more than once. I had met people like Del D before any of us were ever exposed to PFAL, and I was happy to give a start over to anyone who wanted it - and after a few years post PFAL I wanted to put certain things behind me - I was far from being perfect but I just wanted to build on certain things and it didn't include extra marital sex and the use of drugs, like pot and heavy drinking.
Which made me a "square" to some people, and not to be trusted.
Fukk them. In their graves or wherever they're swilling their bs today - just fukk that and them, twice over. Manipulators who lied and hid what they were doing. No wonder VPW liked them, he knew kindred souls when he saw them. You can use people to your own advantage that are that stupid.
Edited by socks Just a little reminder. They might let us stay here gettin’ old and dusty, but all we are is tools to them. That’s all we’ll ever be.
Some of them were pretty good at hiding it too and lying about it. Not Kris, specifically but there are others who today want to holler back to the hooting' an' tootin' they did then and act as if they didn't get anything in return - I'm not one to name names of people that could be harmed by it and I don't act where I don't have or want permission to - but - the fact is there were both men and women who were as opportunistic as VPW - and if you got caught in their web of bull sh it they were good at hanging you out to dry behind their curtain of deceit. But some of those that came and went and some who stayed got exactly what they wanted out of it.
I came into the Way Corps and working there with a past I was trying to put behind me and grow out of. People often mistook that for innocence. I won't pretend I was some kind of a bad bad man in my day but I'd been around the block already more than once. I had met people like Del D before any of us were ever exposed to PFAL, and I was happy to give a start over to anyone who wanted it - and after a few years post PFAL I wanted to put certain things behind me - I was far from being perfect but I just wanted to build on certain things and it didn't include extra marital sex and the use of drugs, like pot and heavy drinking.
Which made me a "square" to some people, and not to be trusted.
Fukk them. In their graves or wherever they're swilling their bs today - just fukk that and them, twice over. Manipulators who lied and hid what they were doing. No wonder VPW liked them, he knew kindred souls when he saw them. You can use people to your own advantage that are that stupid.
Yes, they (VPW's "girls") hid the fact that they slept with him or rather interpreted their liaison with VPW as "serving the man of God," which really means they slept with him because he intimidated them into doing it, preying on their sympathy. Or did they get brainwashed into believing they were "helping" him? I know some who would answer YES to that question.
I recall a meeting in the fireplace room of VPW's house, which was the basement. It was sometime in 1976 or 1977, during the year I was separated from my then husband who left me there in Nov. 1976. There was a third Corps person who wanted to divorce his wife. VPW, in his chair alongside the fireplace, Drambouie in hand, confronted that person about divorce, stating that his (VPW's) situation served as an example of "staying together no matter what." He said that even though Mrs. Wierwille had had a hysterectomy which debiltated her from enjoying sex, he stayed with her. That was commitment. I did not want to know this. He foisted this information upon us whether or not we wanted to know the intimate details of his marriage.
In hindsight, I realize that telling us this was possibly his ploy to gain our sympathy. Perhaps, I think now, it was his effort to justify his extra marital affairs. But that's just my opinion. We'll never know for sure. I do know I felt VERRRRRY uncomfortable with his telling us this most personal information. Why would a man do that?
Or did they get brainwashed into believing they were "helping" him?
I remember sitting with a 9th corpse gal at a meal one time, she told me of her aspirations to sleep with a man of god. At the time, I had no idea about the context.
42 minutes ago, penworks said:
He foisted this information upon us whether or not we wanted to know the intimate details of his marriage.
In hindsight, I realize that telling us this was possibly his ploy to gain our sympathy. Perhaps, I think now, it was his effort to justify his extra marital affairs. But that's just my opinion. We'll never know for sure.
We will never know by direct disclosure by Vic, but we CAN draw reasonable inferences. IMO, it's not necessarily just your opinion.
VPW, in his chair alongside the fireplace, Drambouie in hand, confronted that person about divorce, stating that his (VPW's) situation served as an example of "staying together no matter what."
His example served as an example of MRS WEIRWILLE staying together no matter what. Maybe she took her vows seriously ("till death us do part...") and doubtless in the 50s, 60s, 70s, it would have been harder and more socially disastrous for her to divorce him, than the other way about. Mrs W's role as enabler/ victim/ abusee/ whatever, has been debated here a few times. We'll never know.
What we do know is that VPW's behaviour is totally out of order and has NO scriptural support whatsoever, but rather, much condemnation.
Any of these ex Corps leaders who played around and had any sexual contact with any woman not his own wife was, and is, completely unsuitable for leadership.
His example served as an example of MRS WEIRWILLE staying together no matter what. Maybe she took her vows seriously ("till death us do part...") and doubtless in the 50s, 60s, 70s, it would have been harder and more socially disastrous for her to divorce him, than the other way about.
That reminds me - my Mom told me about a big fight she had with Dad - and how Dad said something like "ha, you're stuck with me"...to which Mom replied "till death do us part, after that you're on your own."
Yes, they (VPW's "girls") hid the fact that they slept with him or rather interpreted their liaison with VPW as "serving the man of God," which really means they slept with him because he intimidated them into doing it, preying on their sympathy. Or did they get brainwashed into believing they were "helping" him? I know some who would answer YES to that question.
I recall a meeting in the fireplace room of VPW's house, which was the basement. It was sometime in 1976 or 1977, during the year I was separated from my then husband who left me there in Nov. 1976. There was a third Corps person who wanted to divorce his wife. VPW, in his chair alongside the fireplace, Drambouie in hand, confronted that person about divorce, stating that his (VPW's) situation served as an example of "staying together no matter what." He said that even though Mrs. Wierwille had had a hysterectomy which debiltated her from enjoying sex, he stayed with her. That was commitment. I did not want to know this. He foisted this information upon us whether or not we wanted to know the intimate details of his marriage.
In hindsight, I realize that telling us this was possibly his ploy to gain our sympathy. Perhaps, I think now, it was his effort to justify his extra marital affairs. But that's just my opinion. We'll never know for sure. I do know I felt VERRRRRY uncomfortable with his telling us this most personal information. Why would a man do that?
8 hours ago, Rocky said:
I remember sitting with a 9th corpse gal at a meal one time, she told me of her aspirations to sleep with a man of god. At the time, I had no idea about the context.
We will never know by direct disclosure by Vic, but we CAN draw reasonable inferences. IMO, it's not necessarily just your opinion.
Some thoughts out of a zillion theories I have about what really drives a harmful and controlling cult-leader like wierwille…I wanted to chip in my two cents on brainwashing, wierwille’s depravity, and manipulation tactics.
brainwashing - with a push toward licentiousness:
I’ve always wondered about the hypocrisy of wierwille – I took PFAL in 1974 – in the class he taught “The Word means what it says and says what it means” and what’s the greatest sin a person can commit – breaking the 1st great commandment, not loving God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and adds the 2nd is like that, to love your neighbor as yourself – he makes the point that on those two commandments hang the law and the prophets – and then he goes on to say if you love God and love your neighbor you don’t go around breaking the commandments anyway…I got more and more involved with TWI, went WOW, helped run classes, helped start a coffeehouse band, helped start Twigs & run Twigs, helped to put on advances, went in the way corps in 1984 – and got to see another side of wierwille – that the general TWI-follower doesn’t get to see.
I left TWI in 1986 – wierwille had passed away and then the power-grabs commenced. I never realized something the whole time I was in …from 1974 to 1986 – well, actually sometime after ’86 if you factor in my slow-exit-extricating-myself-from-TWI-mindset-and-joining-Grease-Spot…I never realized there were actually two wierwilles:
wierwille one – The Shepherd: The Teacher, respectable, greatly admired, man-of-god-for-this-day-and-time-and-hour…say, that’s a really nice wool suit.
wierwille two – Ravenous wolf: unabashed plagiarist, sexual predator, malignant narcissist, money-grubbing-backbiting-cantankerous-hypocritical-mean-spirited megalomaniac – and besides those 9 obvious “manifestations” there was probably a lot of other really bad habits.
How can you reconcile the two wierwilles into one person? Ok – cue up the Certs it’s like two mints in one commercial - it’s easy, if you know the secret…brainwashing ! Ah yes – the old indoctrination / acclimatization trick ! Brainwash – to indoctrinate someone so as to effect a radical change in beliefs...Acclimatization – the numerous, gradual long-term responses of a person to changes in their environment…
To understand the genius in this brainwashing is to understand how to hide a predator in plain sight...camouflage !!!! a wolf in sheep's clothing..."wait!...what are you talking about? He's the great doctor wierwille - he heard from god - god taught him the word so he could teach it to us"...I think of all those years I was in TWI...there was always a push to review PFAL stuff...get people in the PFAL class...run more PFAL classes...all those years of not stop hype of what wierwille did...what he said about this about that...WWwD What Would wierwille Do...way corps training = eat, sleep, and breathe PFAL.
indoctrination is not an overnight process. Usually, a person does not knowingly join a harmful and controlling cult. The road in may best be described as a subliminal acclimatizing process – where a newcomer finds something - or someone attractive in the group and so they make themselves mentally adjust to the prevailing ideas, attitudes, and behavior to fit in. …it’s like a prolonged seductive intoxicating “romance”…a cult luring neophytes to take bigger and bigger sips of the Kool-Aid…using manipulative tactics like love-bombing, the subtle influence of peer pressure and groupthink...
You know…if I ever told anyone who is unfamiliar with The Way International about some of the things I’ve heard and seen wierwille say and do – among other things they’d probably say “I thought you said you went to a Christian college to learn about the Bible.”
what’s really weird to me now – in 2022 (oh hey, happy new year Grease Spotters! ) reflecting on more recent times of divisiveness, polarization, politicizing of just about anything, some cult-like mindsets, me-too-movement, etc. – I find myself saying “holy $hit…been there, done that.”
…anyway…I have this theory to explain how a supposedly Bible-believing “teacher” could practice and promote a sinful and depraved lifestyle…perhaps he did not see the hypocrisy of it and perhaps even had the best of intentions because of some twisted beliefs.
Our beliefs help us make sense of the world. Our beliefs help form and/or modify a mental model for understanding the world, our self and others. And our beliefs - along with experience, observations, and reason even attempt to predict the future. Bertrand Russell once said, “believing is the most mental thing we do”. It has also been said that our thoughts, feelings, actions, and reactions, respond not to the world as it actually is (for we never know reality directly) but to the world as we believe it to be. Our beliefs tell us who we think we are, mark our place in the world and are essentially an ongoing personal narrative that “anchors” us to various places, situations, and events across our lifetimes. Can you tell I’ve been reading up on philosophy of religion? …it goes along with my never-ending research project of analyzing wierwille-doctrine…
…anyway…
it is my contention that wierwille-doctrine has at least four major elements: signature intuition, fundamentalism, spiritualism, and Gnosticism…the awesome-sauce recipe for wierwille’s brand of Kool-Aid. Down the hatch!
But to spare you the grief and longsuffering of T-Bone-Blather-Puss , I’ll just zero-in on Gnosticism and how it relates to wierwille’s licentiousness…this still is going to be a long post – sorry.
I’ll skip over my resources – but if anyone is interested in where I got this info on Gnosticism, please feel free to private message me and I’ll give you Amazon links to all the books I’ve used – hey instead of sponsoring someone to be brainwashed in the way corps with their wierwille-centric curriculum, over the years I’ve worked on amassing a huge collection of printed books and ebooks that are actually a lot more informative and useful than wierwille’s hodgepodge of twisted theology…and besides - I don’t run a Twig, retired, don’t have to do the 4-Fifteens in the morning – I’ve got a lot of time on my hands…(also, nowadays I purchase more ebooks than printed books cuz Tonto said if I don’t stop buying printed books I’ll either have to build on an addition to the house or go get a job at the library…well… I’m cheap and lazy so yeah Kindle! )
…anyway…
Gnosticism is an elusive and often misunderstood term. A simplified definition of it is to say it is mainly about “salvation” or a way to escape the evil and imperfect materialism of this world through a secret and special knowledge - from the Greek word “gnosis” . Gnosticism is not really a definite homogenous religious system – it is so diverse. It is more along the lines of a mental construct - something existing only in the mind. It is an intellectual fabrication made from ideas and not physical components. It is only conceptual, not real. The ancient Gnostics did not know they were “Gnostics” – that is what others began to call them. Among the many groups that are identified as Gnostics, there was usually a big emphasis on esoteric knowledge.
Some theologians have said Gnosticism is similar to the New Age Movement. The early church was confronted with this diverse and complex movement - it was a prominent heretical movement early on in the Christian Church, but it was partly of a pre-Christian origin. Some scholars also think the driving force behind Gnosticism is theodicy – which means vindication of God – in other words, Gnostics wanted to exonerate God – attempting to answer the question of why a good God permits the manifestation of evil, thus resolving the issue of the problem of evil.
Gnosticism comprises a loosely associated group of teachers, teachings and sects which professed to offer ‘gnosis’ – saving knowledge or enlightenment that was expressed in various myths to explain the origin of the world, the human soul and the destiny of the soul. Everything originated from a transcendent spiritual power. But then corruption set in, and inferior powers emerged – resulting in the creation of the material world in which the human spirit is now imprisoned. Salvation is sought by cultivating the inner life while neglecting the body and social responsibilities that had nothing to do with the cult. It was seen as a rival to orthodox Christianity, though in fact some Gnostic sects were more closely linked with Judaism or with Iranian religions like Zoroastrianism.
Henry Melvill Gwatkin (1844 – 1916) was an English theologian and church historian, said Gnosticism is Christianity perverted by learning and speculation. The intellectual pride of the Gnostics changed the gospel into a philosophy and had a tendency to regard knowledge as superior to faith and that it was something only held by the more enlightened since ordinary Christians did not possess this secret higher doctrine. Also, it was essential to view matter and spirit as distinctly separate – and matter being intrinsically evil and the source from which all evil has arisen.
Some scholars note the impact of Gnosticism in the epistles. The esoteric exclusiveness and asceticism of its adherents had a negative effect on Christian freedom and was derogatory to the idea that the Holy Spirit could dwell in our evil human bodies – see the correlation in passages that correct the error of some seeking spiritual deliverance through philosophy and ascetic practices of self-abasement and severity to the body Colossians 2 - and how knowledge puffs up I Corinthians 13 and Paul warning against myths, speculations and vain discussions in I Timothy 1 . In the epistles of John, we find Gnosticism was distinguished by an unethical, loveless intellectualism and repeatedly condemned antinomianism which is a belief which rejects laws or legalism and argues against moral, religious or social norms.
the core of Gnosticism rests on secret knowledge - which is the big hype of the Advanced Class on Power For Abundant Living; matter, the flesh is evil, sinful, imperfect and the Spirit is good, pure, perfect and there is a clear separation between the material world and the spiritual world. In ancient sectarian texts and in the writings of Christian opponents, heresiologists such as Irenaeus refer to a certain kind of knowledge – which involved understanding one’s original divine nature and its fall and entrapment in the inferior realm of matter. A superior knowledge is the key to escape from this material imprisonment through an awakening. We find in Gnosticism a sophisticated treatment of the doctrines of creation, the Fall of man as well as redemption showing obvious signs of Platonic influence.
Neander, a Greek philosopher of the 2nd century described Gnosticism as the first notable attempt to introduce existing elements of theoretical knowledge from various cultures. It was an amalgam of tendencies that were speculative and elaborate and partly based on the philosophical creed of Greeks and Romans looking for a safe haven after the gradual decline of their own religions, besides the infusion of philosophies, theosophies, and religions of the East, especially those of Persia and India.
Henry Longueville Mansel (1820 – 1871) was an English philosopher and ecclesiastic, summed up the three principal sources of Gnosticism: 1. Platonism – its philosophical form and tendencies.
2. The Dualism of the Persian religion – speculations about the origin of evil and emanations which is an idea in the cosmology - emanation is from the Latin emanare meaning "to flow from" and is the mode by which all things are derived from the first reality, or principle. All things are derived from the first reality or perfect God by steps of degradation to lesser degrees of the first reality or God, and at every step the emanating beings are less pure, less perfect, less divine.
3. Buddhism which had an antagonism between matter and spirit – and the unreality of derived existence – the germ of Docetism which in Gnosticism taught that Christ's body was not human but either a phantasm or of real but celestial substance, and that therefore his sufferings were only apparent.
To package it in modern terms – giving it an Advanced-Class-Grad-New-Age-appeal – you could say esoteric consciousness is the key to unlocking a transcendent understanding, self-realization, and a unity with God. Central to many gnostic beliefs is a dualistic view of the universe in which matter was seen as essentially an illusion while spirit is the only true reality…theory and practice of various gnostic groups can span the whole spectrum from asceticism to antinomianism.
When I speak of wierwille’s theology having Gnostic strains – I don’t mean to suggest he deliberately and formally adopted Gnosticism. I merely want to point out there are elements in wierwille’s ideology that seem to hearken back to a Gnostic mindset:
There is the tendency to lean heavily on speculation and elaborate theories of how the spiritual world works – especially in PFAL and the Advanced Class…and note the arrogant attitude fueled by thinking one has more of "the rightly-divided Word of God than any other ministry"
Practicing situation ethics – being flexible in the application of moral laws according to circumstances - I'm thinking about the goal of the woman Rocky mentioned in his incident.
and lastly
intellectualism having a higher priority than faith, compassion, and altruism in other words, studying or teaching “The Word” is often thought of as doing “The Word” or is thought of as equivalent to exercising faith, selflessness, and goodwill.
In thinking about Gnosticism’s paradigm of disconnecting the material world from the spiritual world, it makes me wonder if that was a factor in wierwille rationalizing his licentious behavior. I recall the many times I’ve heard him teach on the renewed mind and the Christian lifestyle and he often seemed to imply that the spiritual and physical realms had little to do with each other – and he would emphasize we should focus on the spiritual by saying things like “our old man nature is totally corrupt and unsalvageable – but our spiritual nature that we received when we got born again is perfect and needs no improvement”. Nowadays with a mind that is not Kool-Aid drenched, reexamining those kinds of statements he had made – it's obvious to me that wierwille was unmoored from any of the simple moral demands of the Bible.
…if anyone is still awake and you got this far – I’m moving on to
this is me moving on ... ....I use these emojis to keep my young people awake - yikes ! a PFAL-flashback
manipulation via sympathy:
about the incident Penworks talked about - I tend to think wierwille was playing the sympathy card to his audience…I think revealing the most personal information may be a strategic move to soften boundaries – like an initial gesture of goodwill. With shifty folks like wierwille, this move seems almost like a scam to set up a commerce in social situations – an interchange of ideas, feelings, etc. between two or more people. The scam artist uses counterfeit currency to trade on the sympathy, respect, loyalty, admiration, etc. of honest folks.
And another thing…I could see if it was a one-on-one setting and if the person is being genuine, opening themselves up to you, making themselves vulnerable…showing they trust you enough to confide in you: “you know, I’ve never told anyone this but blah blah blah.” Usually when a person is being really honest and open like that, it’s taking a big risk – what if they will be judged harshly, criticized, or emotionally wounded. I think we’ve all have or had friendships like that…anytime I’ve been on the receiving end of someone unloading a burden, I respect their trust in me and try to sense if they’re wanting feedback or just someone to vent to.
But in the group setting you described – I have my doubts about wierwille EVER being open, honest and making himself vulnerable – his narcissistic nature wouldn’t allow it…and I would have felt very uncomfortable as well cuz it’s so inappropriate.
= = = = = = = === = = = = =
Yeah I can understand why TWI wants Seasoned Ex-Corps Leaders to Come Back…they’re already house-broken…trained to regurgitate only inside the “household”.
Edited by T-Bone wanted: Gnostic who is an editing know-it-all
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skyrider
According to someone I trust for reliable information......twi is starting to reach out and solicit/summon ex-corps grads to come back. Apparently, there is a growing demand for Limb coordinators. H
Bolshevik
In what's called the narcissist cycle of abuse, this is an example of hoovering.
penworks
I just love nostalgia ... it's so cozy and comforting and ... oops ... other stuff that's not so great. In case you missed the article I wrote on this topic (posted here on GSC back in 2009), here you
waysider
Hi, Wet Blanket. I'm Stick in the Mud. This is my brother Bump on a Log and this is my other brother Bump on a Log.
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T-Bone
Folks often ask my wife how the Grinch stole Ho Ho Re-Lo ( jabs his thumb at himself) …yeah right , like Debbie Downer is gonna have any good news.
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WordWolf
Nostalgia......
I'm reminded of a song that spoke of nostalgia, a desire to return to the town where someone grew up, only years later, after everything had changed. This is a translation, so the lyrics don't rhyme in English.
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"I sing this zamba to my distant land, warm little town of our interior. Burning land that inspires my love, clay-ey, parched, with a burning sun. Remembering that burning land, my voice echoes, 'How hot!'
I do remember you, my pretty little town, with your damp and dense air by daylight. Warm moonlights from a fantasy, full of magic, of an infinite singing, and the singing of your fresh little stream- except in the ten months of drought.
My beloved town has always been very calm, except that time the hurricane passed by. Old lands, how far away you are. My dear land, my sweet village. I'm afraid you have changed since the lasted volcanic eruption.
Land that, until yesterday, sheltered my childhood, I always remember you with my heart. Even if that sweet little stream today is a boiling torrent of lava that fortunately, sometimes quenches at the arrival of the time of flooding.
The hungry wolves shake while howling, when bitten by fierce mosquitoes. It's impossible to sleep because of the cries of thousands of vultures that darken the sky. Sooner or later, an earthquake will appear, and at sunset, it rains meteors.
If I could only go back to my little town, my old town to which I've never returned, if I could only go back there, to the town that always calls me, that always waits for me, if I could go back to that town....I wouldn't even do it if I was drunk!"
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I think that song sums up how a lot of people feel about returning to twi for the NOSTALGIA.
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waysider
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Rejoice
What??? A secret harem?
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Bolshevik
A harem is part of a political system where a number of children are born by numerous women and expected to execute each other until one remains for the right to rule.
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waysider
Heh. Pretty sure that's not the same usage of the word.
Although there does seem to be some parallel in them "executing" each other for the right to rule.
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penworks
Plenty of former Wafers know that there "allegedly" were women in the early years of the "ministry" and then ones in The Way Corps who were Wierwille's "girls." He seduced them. One wrote her story about that in, Losing The Way. Others have told me themselves. This is not a new revelation on GSC.
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Rocky
Indeed. That's what I was getting at. The decision makers (after having deposed Rosa-lie) trying to figure out what MIGHT work to rejuvenate the dying sect.
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Bolshevik
In the abuse cycle. . . Idealization switches to devaluation so swiftly by the narcissist that the abused, in shock, desperately cling to the return to the idealization phase. Missing those initial times, thinking those experiences were real, thinking it is something they did wrong, thinking there is something they can do fix the situation. Not understanding the internal world of the narcissist operates to the beat of it's own fantasy drum.
When people cling to hope for change I tend to think they are make themselves open to the hoovering.
And perhaps some are so used the cycle it is the only thing they know.
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Bolshevik
This I think gets back to healing from narcissistic abuse involves confronting ones own narcissism.
VPW told everyone they were superior to Jesus via his teaches . . . God loves you you are the best . . Blah blah blah . . . Idealization idealization idealization.
Edited by BolshevikNarcissistic spelling
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T-Bone
Nope ! not going to another Rock of Ages ever again. I’m free !!!!
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penworks
I just love nostalgia ... it's so cozy and comforting and ... oops ... other stuff that's not so great. In case you missed the article I wrote on this topic (posted here on GSC back in 2009), here you go. Enjoy.
Nostalgia article CEdge10-28-09.pdf
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Rocky
It seems fair to surmise the "powers that be" in both the R and R group and in TWI cling to the faulty premises of the good old days of Wierwille's faulty research.
I enjoyed reading your nostalgia piece.
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frank123lol
Wayworld delusions of grandeur. Some people just want the attention why else would you do a so called Limb? I know narcissism would be no 1 wanting people to adore you.no.2. A stream of income you can skim from Yeah ya know they did no.3No one is spiritually responsible to someone else that is a lie."They don't own you no matter what they say" Take it still on Google/u tube music.Sums it up
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OldSkool
I know first hand the inflated ego that comes with a "major assignment" and all the gassing up that comes with it. My head size grew exponentially the first year or so of my cabinet position and it took me purposefully recodnizing that I was egotistical and purposefully changing my direction. I was never like that but accepted the position with an ungaurded mindset to purposefully avoid that massive ego that they engender. I agree wholeheartedly: Most way corps who take on a so called major assignment are very egotistical and very attention seeking. And the way corps are definately adored as great men of God or whatever....until they go cross purposes to the board of directors...then you aren't even spoken of in public.
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socks
Some of them were pretty good at hiding it too and lying about it. Not Kris, specifically but there are others who today want to holler back to the hooting' an' tootin' they did then and act as if they didn't get anything in return - I'm not one to name names of people that could be harmed by it and I don't act where I don't have or want permission to - but - the fact is there were both men and women who were as opportunistic as VPW - and if you got caught in their web of bull sh it they were good at hanging you out to dry behind their curtain of deceit. But some of those that came and went and some who stayed got exactly what they wanted out of it.
Edited by socksI came into the Way Corps and working there with a past I was trying to put behind me and grow out of. People often mistook that for innocence. I won't pretend I was some kind of a bad bad man in my day but I'd been around the block already more than once. I had met people like Del D before any of us were ever exposed to PFAL, and I was happy to give a start over to anyone who wanted it - and after a few years post PFAL I wanted to put certain things behind me - I was far from being perfect but I just wanted to build on certain things and it didn't include extra marital sex and the use of drugs, like pot and heavy drinking.
Which made me a "square" to some people, and not to be trusted.
Fukk them. In their graves or wherever they're swilling their bs today - just fukk that and them, twice over. Manipulators who lied and hid what they were doing. No wonder VPW liked them, he knew kindred souls when he saw them. You can use people to your own advantage that are that stupid.
Just a little reminder. They might let us stay here gettin’ old and dusty, but all we are is tools to them. That’s all we’ll ever be.
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chockfull
Hi Wet Blanket I’m Fire Hydrant.
Nice to meet you lol.
we didn’t mention yet the former harem members with current big way assignments or how people trade on dirt for assignments.
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chockfull
Coincidentally, socks rhymes with rocks. Because his posts rock.
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penworks
Yes, they (VPW's "girls") hid the fact that they slept with him or rather interpreted their liaison with VPW as "serving the man of God," which really means they slept with him because he intimidated them into doing it, preying on their sympathy. Or did they get brainwashed into believing they were "helping" him? I know some who would answer YES to that question.
I recall a meeting in the fireplace room of VPW's house, which was the basement. It was sometime in 1976 or 1977, during the year I was separated from my then husband who left me there in Nov. 1976. There was a third Corps person who wanted to divorce his wife. VPW, in his chair alongside the fireplace, Drambouie in hand, confronted that person about divorce, stating that his (VPW's) situation served as an example of "staying together no matter what." He said that even though Mrs. Wierwille had had a hysterectomy which debiltated her from enjoying sex, he stayed with her. That was commitment. I did not want to know this. He foisted this information upon us whether or not we wanted to know the intimate details of his marriage.
In hindsight, I realize that telling us this was possibly his ploy to gain our sympathy. Perhaps, I think now, it was his effort to justify his extra marital affairs. But that's just my opinion. We'll never know for sure. I do know I felt VERRRRRY uncomfortable with his telling us this most personal information. Why would a man do that?
Edited by penworksspelling fix, year fix
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Rocky
I remember sitting with a 9th corpse gal at a meal one time, she told me of her aspirations to sleep with a man of god. At the time, I had no idea about the context.
We will never know by direct disclosure by Vic, but we CAN draw reasonable inferences. IMO, it's not necessarily just your opinion.
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Twinky
His example served as an example of MRS WEIRWILLE staying together no matter what. Maybe she took her vows seriously ("till death us do part...") and doubtless in the 50s, 60s, 70s, it would have been harder and more socially disastrous for her to divorce him, than the other way about. Mrs W's role as enabler/ victim/ abusee/ whatever, has been debated here a few times. We'll never know.
What we do know is that VPW's behaviour is totally out of order and has NO scriptural support whatsoever, but rather, much condemnation.
Any of these ex Corps leaders who played around and had any sexual contact with any woman not his own wife was, and is, completely unsuitable for leadership.
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T-Bone
That reminds me - my Mom told me about a big fight she had with Dad - and how Dad said something like "ha, you're stuck with me"...to which Mom replied "till death do us part, after that you're on your own."
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T-Bone
Some thoughts out of a zillion theories I have about what really drives a harmful and controlling cult-leader like wierwille…I wanted to chip in my two cents on brainwashing, wierwille’s depravity, and manipulation tactics.
brainwashing - with a push toward licentiousness:
I’ve always wondered about the hypocrisy of wierwille – I took PFAL in 1974 – in the class he taught “The Word means what it says and says what it means” and what’s the greatest sin a person can commit – breaking the 1st great commandment, not loving God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and adds the 2nd is like that, to love your neighbor as yourself – he makes the point that on those two commandments hang the law and the prophets – and then he goes on to say if you love God and love your neighbor you don’t go around breaking the commandments anyway…I got more and more involved with TWI, went WOW, helped run classes, helped start a coffeehouse band, helped start Twigs & run Twigs, helped to put on advances, went in the way corps in 1984 – and got to see another side of wierwille – that the general TWI-follower doesn’t get to see.
I left TWI in 1986 – wierwille had passed away and then the power-grabs commenced. I never realized something the whole time I was in …from 1974 to 1986 – well, actually sometime after ’86 if you factor in my slow-exit-extricating-myself-from-TWI-mindset-and-joining-Grease-Spot…I never realized there were actually two wierwilles:
wierwille one – The Shepherd: The Teacher, respectable, greatly admired, man-of-god-for-this-day-and-time-and-hour…say, that’s a really nice wool suit.
wierwille two – Ravenous wolf: unabashed plagiarist, sexual predator, malignant narcissist, money-grubbing-backbiting-cantankerous-hypocritical-mean-spirited megalomaniac – and besides those 9 obvious “manifestations” there was probably a lot of other really bad habits.
How can you reconcile the two wierwilles into one person? Ok – cue up the Certs it’s like two mints in one commercial - it’s easy, if you know the secret…brainwashing ! Ah yes – the old indoctrination / acclimatization trick ! Brainwash – to indoctrinate someone so as to effect a radical change in beliefs...Acclimatization – the numerous, gradual long-term responses of a person to changes in their environment…
To understand the genius in this brainwashing is to understand how to hide a predator in plain sight...camouflage !!!! a wolf in sheep's clothing..."wait!...what are you talking about? He's the great doctor wierwille - he heard from god - god taught him the word so he could teach it to us"...I think of all those years I was in TWI...there was always a push to review PFAL stuff...get people in the PFAL class...run more PFAL classes...all those years of not stop hype of what wierwille did...what he said about this about that...WWwD What Would wierwille Do...way corps training = eat, sleep, and breathe PFAL.
indoctrination is not an overnight process. Usually, a person does not knowingly join a harmful and controlling cult. The road in may best be described as a subliminal acclimatizing process – where a newcomer finds something - or someone attractive in the group and so they make themselves mentally adjust to the prevailing ideas, attitudes, and behavior to fit in. …it’s like a prolonged seductive intoxicating “romance”…a cult luring neophytes to take bigger and bigger sips of the Kool-Aid…using manipulative tactics like love-bombing, the subtle influence of peer pressure and groupthink...
You know…if I ever told anyone who is unfamiliar with The Way International about some of the things I’ve heard and seen wierwille say and do – among other things they’d probably say “I thought you said you went to a Christian college to learn about the Bible.”
what’s really weird to me now – in 2022 (oh hey, happy new year Grease Spotters!
…anyway…I have this theory to explain how a supposedly Bible-believing “teacher” could practice and promote a sinful and depraved lifestyle…perhaps he did not see the hypocrisy of it and perhaps even had the best of intentions because of some twisted beliefs.
Our beliefs help us make sense of the world. Our beliefs help form and/or modify a mental model for understanding the world, our self and others. And our beliefs - along with experience, observations, and reason even attempt to predict the future. Bertrand Russell once said, “believing is the most mental thing we do”. It has also been said that our thoughts, feelings, actions, and reactions, respond not to the world as it actually is (for we never know reality directly) but to the world as we believe it to be. Our beliefs tell us who we think we are, mark our place in the world and are essentially an ongoing personal narrative that “anchors” us to various places, situations, and events across our lifetimes. Can you tell I’ve been reading up on philosophy of religion?
…anyway…
it is my contention that wierwille-doctrine has at least four major elements: signature intuition, fundamentalism, spiritualism, and Gnosticism…the awesome-sauce recipe for wierwille’s brand of Kool-Aid. Down the hatch!
But to spare you the grief and longsuffering of T-Bone-Blather-Puss
I’ll skip over my resources – but if anyone is interested in where I got this info on Gnosticism, please feel free to private message me and I’ll give you Amazon links to all the books I’ve used – hey instead of sponsoring someone to be brainwashed in the way corps with their wierwille-centric curriculum, over the years I’ve worked on amassing a huge collection of printed books and ebooks that are actually a lot more informative and useful than wierwille’s hodgepodge of twisted theology…and besides - I don’t run a Twig, retired, don’t have to do the 4-Fifteens in the morning – I’ve got a lot of time on my hands…(also, nowadays I purchase more ebooks than printed books cuz Tonto said if I don’t stop buying printed books I’ll either have to build on an addition to the house or go get a job at the library…well… I’m cheap and lazy so yeah Kindle!
…anyway…
Gnosticism is an elusive and often misunderstood term. A simplified definition of it is to say it is mainly about “salvation” or a way to escape the evil and imperfect materialism of this world through a secret and special knowledge - from the Greek word “gnosis” . Gnosticism is not really a definite homogenous religious system – it is so diverse. It is more along the lines of a mental construct - something existing only in the mind. It is an intellectual fabrication made from ideas and not physical components. It is only conceptual, not real. The ancient Gnostics did not know they were “Gnostics” – that is what others began to call them. Among the many groups that are identified as Gnostics, there was usually a big emphasis on esoteric knowledge.
Some theologians have said Gnosticism is similar to the New Age Movement. The early church was confronted with this diverse and complex movement - it was a prominent heretical movement early on in the Christian Church, but it was partly of a pre-Christian origin. Some scholars also think the driving force behind Gnosticism is theodicy – which means vindication of God – in other words, Gnostics wanted to exonerate God – attempting to answer the question of why a good God permits the manifestation of evil, thus resolving the issue of the problem of evil.
Gnosticism comprises a loosely associated group of teachers, teachings and sects which professed to offer ‘gnosis’ – saving knowledge or enlightenment that was expressed in various myths to explain the origin of the world, the human soul and the destiny of the soul. Everything originated from a transcendent spiritual power. But then corruption set in, and inferior powers emerged – resulting in the creation of the material world in which the human spirit is now imprisoned. Salvation is sought by cultivating the inner life while neglecting the body and social responsibilities that had nothing to do with the cult. It was seen as a rival to orthodox Christianity, though in fact some Gnostic sects were more closely linked with Judaism or with Iranian religions like Zoroastrianism.
Henry Melvill Gwatkin (1844 – 1916) was an English theologian and church historian, said Gnosticism is Christianity perverted by learning and speculation. The intellectual pride of the Gnostics changed the gospel into a philosophy and had a tendency to regard knowledge as superior to faith and that it was something only held by the more enlightened since ordinary Christians did not possess this secret higher doctrine. Also, it was essential to view matter and spirit as distinctly separate – and matter being intrinsically evil and the source from which all evil has arisen.
Some scholars note the impact of Gnosticism in the epistles. The esoteric exclusiveness and asceticism of its adherents had a negative effect on Christian freedom and was derogatory to the idea that the Holy Spirit could dwell in our evil human bodies – see the correlation in passages that correct the error of some seeking spiritual deliverance through philosophy and ascetic practices of self-abasement and severity to the body Colossians 2 - and how knowledge puffs up I Corinthians 13 and Paul warning against myths, speculations and vain discussions in I Timothy 1 . In the epistles of John, we find Gnosticism was distinguished by an unethical, loveless intellectualism and repeatedly condemned antinomianism which is a belief which rejects laws or legalism and argues against moral, religious or social norms.
the core of Gnosticism rests on secret knowledge - which is the big hype of the Advanced Class on Power For Abundant Living; matter, the flesh is evil, sinful, imperfect and the Spirit is good, pure, perfect and there is a clear separation between the material world and the spiritual world. In ancient sectarian texts and in the writings of Christian opponents, heresiologists such as Irenaeus refer to a certain kind of knowledge – which involved understanding one’s original divine nature and its fall and entrapment in the inferior realm of matter. A superior knowledge is the key to escape from this material imprisonment through an awakening. We find in Gnosticism a sophisticated treatment of the doctrines of creation, the Fall of man as well as redemption showing obvious signs of Platonic influence.
Neander, a Greek philosopher of the 2nd century described Gnosticism as the first notable attempt to introduce existing elements of theoretical knowledge from various cultures. It was an amalgam of tendencies that were speculative and elaborate and partly based on the philosophical creed of Greeks and Romans looking for a safe haven after the gradual decline of their own religions, besides the infusion of philosophies, theosophies, and religions of the East, especially those of Persia and India.
Henry Longueville Mansel (1820 – 1871) was an English philosopher and ecclesiastic, summed up the three principal sources of Gnosticism:
1. Platonism – its philosophical form and tendencies.
2. The Dualism of the Persian religion – speculations about the origin of evil and emanations which is an idea in the cosmology - emanation is from the Latin emanare meaning "to flow from" and is the mode by which all things are derived from the first reality, or principle. All things are derived from the first reality or perfect God by steps of degradation to lesser degrees of the first reality or God, and at every step the emanating beings are less pure, less perfect, less divine.
3. Buddhism which had an antagonism between matter and spirit – and the unreality of derived existence – the germ of Docetism which in Gnosticism taught that Christ's body was not human but either a phantasm or of real but celestial substance, and that therefore his sufferings were only apparent.
To package it in modern terms – giving it an Advanced-Class-Grad-New-Age-appeal – you could say esoteric consciousness is the key to unlocking a transcendent understanding, self-realization, and a unity with God. Central to many gnostic beliefs is a dualistic view of the universe in which matter was seen as essentially an illusion while spirit is the only true reality…theory and practice of various gnostic groups can span the whole spectrum from asceticism to antinomianism.
When I speak of wierwille’s theology having Gnostic strains – I don’t mean to suggest he deliberately and formally adopted Gnosticism. I merely want to point out there are elements in wierwille’s ideology that seem to hearken back to a Gnostic mindset:
There is the tendency to lean heavily on speculation and elaborate theories of how the spiritual world works – especially in PFAL and the Advanced Class…and note the arrogant attitude fueled by thinking one has more of "the rightly-divided Word of God than any other ministry"
Practicing situation ethics – being flexible in the application of moral laws according to circumstances - I'm thinking about the goal of the woman Rocky mentioned in his incident.
and lastly
intellectualism having a higher priority than faith, compassion, and altruism in other words, studying or teaching “The Word” is often thought of as doing “The Word” or is thought of as equivalent to exercising faith, selflessness, and goodwill.
In thinking about Gnosticism’s paradigm of disconnecting the material world from the spiritual world, it makes me wonder if that was a factor in wierwille rationalizing his licentious behavior. I recall the many times I’ve heard him teach on the renewed mind and the Christian lifestyle and he often seemed to imply that the spiritual and physical realms had little to do with each other – and he would emphasize we should focus on the spiritual by saying things like “our old man nature is totally corrupt and unsalvageable – but our spiritual nature that we received when we got born again is perfect and needs no improvement”. Nowadays with a mind that is not Kool-Aid drenched, reexamining those kinds of statements he had made – it's obvious to me that wierwille was unmoored from any of the simple moral demands of the Bible.
…if anyone is still awake and you got this far – I’m moving on to
this is me moving on ...
....I use these emojis to keep my young people awake - yikes ! a PFAL-flashback
manipulation via sympathy:
about the incident Penworks talked about - I tend to think wierwille was playing the sympathy card to his audience…I think revealing the most personal information may be a strategic move to soften boundaries – like an initial gesture of goodwill. With shifty folks like wierwille, this move seems almost like a scam to set up a commerce in social situations – an interchange of ideas, feelings, etc. between two or more people. The scam artist uses counterfeit currency to trade on the sympathy, respect, loyalty, admiration, etc. of honest folks.
And another thing…I could see if it was a one-on-one setting and if the person is being genuine, opening themselves up to you, making themselves vulnerable…showing they trust you enough to confide in you: “you know, I’ve never told anyone this but blah blah blah.” Usually when a person is being really honest and open like that, it’s taking a big risk – what if they will be judged harshly, criticized, or emotionally wounded. I think we’ve all have or had friendships like that…anytime I’ve been on the receiving end of someone unloading a burden, I respect their trust in me and try to sense if they’re wanting feedback or just someone to vent to.
But in the group setting you described – I have my doubts about wierwille EVER being open, honest and making himself vulnerable – his narcissistic nature wouldn’t allow it…and I would have felt very uncomfortable as well cuz it’s so inappropriate.
= = = = = = = === = = = = =
Edited by T-BoneYeah I can understand why TWI wants Seasoned Ex-Corps Leaders to Come Back…they’re already house-broken…trained to regurgitate only inside the “household”.
wanted: Gnostic who is an editing know-it-all
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