Nephesh chai was taken out of context to give license to terminate pregnancies out of wedlock by VPW, and likely Martindale too, though I do not know that about Martindale. I can only speculate that people who were full time way corps and had a child that was against the way international's pregnancy policy were very likely counselled to terminate the pregnancy. Other's here can verify.
Now, putting the past aside, it's great to biblically distinguish sould from spirit since two seperate words are used and it certainly adds a lot of understanding to the scope of scripture.
A lot of religions make a big deal out of 'soul', the term is tossed around a lot.
I find that among my non-TWI friends the words 'soul' and 'spirit' are often interchangeable. Visiting other churches the words do not carry any specific meaning.
I enjoy studying the Bible, because in the Bible these words do have specific meanings, and they are not confused or interchangeable.
I have been fairly active within FreeMasonry for a few decades, within their doctrine the word soul gets mangled pretty badly.
Whether they did it with a sincere motive is highly questionable.
But the only scripture that specifically deals with abortion, explicitly, tells you how to perform one.
It's bull**** of course, but still. It's hard to argue the God of the OT is a pro-lifer when he tells his clergy how to perform a ritual that results in the miscarriage of a baby conceived in adultery.
Whether they did it with a sincere motive is highly questionable.
But the only scripture that specifically deals with abortion, explicitly, tells you how to perform one.
It's bull**** of course, but still. It's hard to argue the God of the OT is a pro-lifer when he tells his clergy how to perform a ritual that results in the miscarriage of a baby conceived in adultery.
Numbers 5.
To be clear, as far as TWI getting Biblical abortion right -- I've never really worked it in depth in over 10 years. My inclination is to agree that Biblically it's not murder. I think the issue that seems most egregious with TWI's PRACTICE based on the Bible is using it as an excuse for leadership seducing young women or another man's wife and then sending them off for an abortion to cover their tracks. Same with the practice of counseling someone to abort a baby to keep in line with the pregnancy policy. They used what seems to be Biblical truth as a license to sin, but what's new about that?
My inclination is to agree that Biblically it's not murder. I think the issue that seems most egregious with TWI's PRACTICE based on the Bible is using it as an excuse for leadership seducing young women or another man's wife and then sending them off for an abortion to cover their tracks.
In the New Testament, vpw hung his "explanation" on a single, mistranslated verse, where Jesus Christ, before his birth, was supposedly called a "holy THING." An honest look shows that this word "thing" was only translated "thing" in that spot, and was a person everywhere else - a "holy one." It's obvious if you check the Greek. It's obvious if you check all the other usages of the same word with a Concordance. It's obvious if you check ALL THE OTHER ENGLISH VERSIONS. Even the NEW KJV doesn't use the word "thing" there.
As for what we DO know, in Luke 1, we have a 3rd trimester ( 6 months in development) "BABY" (check the Greek, it's clearly "baby"-but usually "infant" or "young child" in other usages) who has EMOTIONS and responses.
It's incredibly rare to see people trying to push this "first breath" doctrine of vpw, and, as we all know, it was remarkably self-serving. To vpw, children were an inconvenience on many levels. First, believers with kids weren't free to move if he told them to move, because they had a responsibility. Second, kids cost money, and vpw wanted all that money to come to him (indirectly to him via twi, from which he could raid the slush fund if it couldn't be untraceable cash in his hand- which it often WAS!) So, just like in his own life where he passed off raising children AND dogs for others to do the work, vpw didn't want twi'ers to have kids, especially if they weren't good little robots.
This isn't meant to be a doctrinal thread. Whether or not abortion itself is always murder is mostly beside the point. But it is an emotionally charged topic for a reason. There should be some deep feelings associated with the topic, IMO.
The Abortion Doctrine was there to be made common among leaders and non-leaders alike.
The Cult leader ultimately wants you to literally take your life and those you care about in worship of them.
The Abortion Doctrine in TWI is a step in that direction of self destruction, IMO. That's the sickening part. Take these decisions lightly so that future to-be-determined decisions can be taken lightly as well. How far has no limit.
The Abortion Doctrine highlights the depth of evil that is latent within The Way International.
I think there is a time and a place for abortions. When my eldest son's wife was pregnant, an ultrasound noticed that inside the fetus' head there was no detectable brain.
My immediate thought was, Oh no, if you give birth to a turnip, you need to care for this drooling child for years with no hope that they will ever become a self-sufficient adult. Please, this is the proper time to abort a fetus.
His wife refused to have an abortion. "The fetus is living and growing it deserves a chance at life".
She gave birth to a son with cerebral palsy [hydrocephalus]. My grandson is now four years old. He can not blink, nor swallow, his heart pumps and he can breath. He can not move his eyes, nor lift his head, or raise a finger. He is fed through a tube, and he will be for the rest of his life. Every week he gets bigger, Fortunately during the week of his birth, he qualified for life-long SSDI. The burden of care is huge for his mother. Soon he will be too big for his mother to lift him.
We do what we can to offer our Daughter-in-law support and encouragement. But the stress was too much for their marriage.
I am sorry to hear that, Galen. It's almost surprising that the pregnancy continued and didn't naturally abort.
Such a child is a huge burden on not just parents, but all the extended family and friends of the family. Not to mention on wider medical resources, which might be otherwise used for children who could truly benefit.
You didn't say if there were other children; I assume not. I am sure this one is dearly loved by at least his mother. And you too, by the sound of it.
Suppose such a child was born and there were two or three other children. Those children find themselves without any life, because all the effort goes into looking after the ultra-needy one. I know of one family where the disabled child (some sort of ultra-spine-bending illness and tightness of all muscles) had to be fostered out on a 1:1 basis, so that the other children could live a normal life. It was the most loving thing to do in all the circumstances. The foster-mother was very caring and the family visited regularly. The child lived until about the age of 7. I don't know if the illness could have been foreseen.
I do not know if there is a single right answer in this debate.
I do know there are many wrong answers, and a blanket "No abortion under any circumstances" is one of those. As also is, "You must abort!"
It seems doubtful that any cogent argument can be made for TWI's stance, except that unplanned pregnancies, especially by women not the spouses of the head honchos, would be very embarrassing (cough) for them, would blow the lid off their lewdness and bullying - and worse! (horror!) could involve some of those head honchos in providing financial maintenance for the children for many years.
Glad to see you all again here. Among the x wayvers here, some have taken the opposite opinion. I was recently accused of being a Fetus Killer, only because I agreed to pay my share fair of taxes.. how the pendulum swings..
Interesting topic though. We claimed abortion was not murder. But when it came to my second child, unplanned.. at that moment, I felt that abortion would be murder. Abortion was not even an option. TWI's stance just kind of melted away like butter on a hot stove on a warm day..
I like Ken Kesey's take on abortion. Too many regrets if you choose that path..
My daughter hadn't married her daughter's father when she realized she was pregnant. Still didn't for a couple of years but I'm glad she didn't abort either the pregnancy or the relationship. Later they had a son.
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Nathan_Jr
Throughout all (without exception) of victor’s writings and sermons, hundreds, even thousands, of contradictions like this are NOT merely apparent. They literally leap off the page to stand unassailab
waysider
"The Word" said whatever Wierwille wanted it to say. Problem solved.
waysider
Speaking only for myself, I believe this is the salient point of this thread.
Rocky
Was it not really about the self-justification VP and Loy and others needed when they got someone pregnant out of wedlock?
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Bolshevik
Far as I understand.
They wanted the rest of us to do the same.
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Galen
I do not recall ever hearing anyone 'scream' about it.
Many times I have shared with our non-TWI friends the usages of 'nephesh chay'
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OldSkool
Oh, Martindale screamed vigoursly. Not sure about VPW, he was before my time.
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Galen
Okay, yeah he screamed a lot, about everything.
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OldSkool
Nephesh chai was taken out of context to give license to terminate pregnancies out of wedlock by VPW, and likely Martindale too, though I do not know that about Martindale. I can only speculate that people who were full time way corps and had a child that was against the way international's pregnancy policy were very likely counselled to terminate the pregnancy. Other's here can verify.
Now, putting the past aside, it's great to biblically distinguish sould from spirit since two seperate words are used and it certainly adds a lot of understanding to the scope of scripture.
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Galen
A lot of religions make a big deal out of 'soul', the term is tossed around a lot.
I find that among my non-TWI friends the words 'soul' and 'spirit' are often interchangeable. Visiting other churches the words do not carry any specific meaning.
I enjoy studying the Bible, because in the Bible these words do have specific meanings, and they are not confused or interchangeable.
I have been fairly active within FreeMasonry for a few decades, within their doctrine the word soul gets mangled pretty badly.
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Raf
I actually think TWI got Biblical abortion right.
Whether they did it with a sincere motive is highly questionable.
But the only scripture that specifically deals with abortion, explicitly, tells you how to perform one.
It's bull**** of course, but still. It's hard to argue the God of the OT is a pro-lifer when he tells his clergy how to perform a ritual that results in the miscarriage of a baby conceived in adultery.
Numbers 5.
Edited by RafLink to comment
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OldSkool
To be clear, as far as TWI getting Biblical abortion right -- I've never really worked it in depth in over 10 years. My inclination is to agree that Biblically it's not murder. I think the issue that seems most egregious with TWI's PRACTICE based on the Bible is using it as an excuse for leadership seducing young women or another man's wife and then sending them off for an abortion to cover their tracks. Same with the practice of counseling someone to abort a baby to keep in line with the pregnancy policy. They used what seems to be Biblical truth as a license to sin, but what's new about that?
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Raf
You said it well
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Rocky
Exactly.
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WordWolf
BTW, Biblically, the idea that it's not "alive" or "a baby" until 9 months in, when he takes his first breath, is off by at least 3 months.
https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/24071-when-is-it-a-person-when-is-it-alive/
"When is it a person? When is it alive?"
In the New Testament, vpw hung his "explanation" on a single, mistranslated verse, where Jesus Christ, before his birth, was supposedly called a "holy THING." An honest look shows that this word "thing" was only translated "thing" in that spot, and was a person everywhere else - a "holy one." It's obvious if you check the Greek. It's obvious if you check all the other usages of the same word with a Concordance. It's obvious if you check ALL THE OTHER ENGLISH VERSIONS. Even the NEW KJV doesn't use the word "thing" there.
As for what we DO know, in Luke 1, we have a 3rd trimester ( 6 months in development) "BABY" (check the Greek, it's clearly "baby"-but usually "infant" or "young child" in other usages) who has EMOTIONS and responses.
It's incredibly rare to see people trying to push this "first breath" doctrine of vpw, and, as we all know, it was remarkably self-serving. To vpw, children were an inconvenience on many levels. First, believers with kids weren't free to move if he told them to move, because they had a responsibility. Second, kids cost money, and vpw wanted all that money to come to him (indirectly to him via twi, from which he could raid the slush fund if it couldn't be untraceable cash in his hand- which it often WAS!) So, just like in his own life where he passed off raising children AND dogs for others to do the work, vpw didn't want twi'ers to have kids, especially if they weren't good little robots.
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Galen
Are you suggesting that a baby takes its first breath sometime before it is born?
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Raf
That's not what he said, Galen.
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Bolshevik
This isn't meant to be a doctrinal thread. Whether or not abortion itself is always murder is mostly beside the point. But it is an emotionally charged topic for a reason. There should be some deep feelings associated with the topic, IMO.
The Abortion Doctrine was there to be made common among leaders and non-leaders alike.
The Cult leader ultimately wants you to literally take your life and those you care about in worship of them.
The Abortion Doctrine in TWI is a step in that direction of self destruction, IMO. That's the sickening part. Take these decisions lightly so that future to-be-determined decisions can be taken lightly as well. How far has no limit.
The Abortion Doctrine highlights the depth of evil that is latent within The Way International.
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Galen
I think there is a time and a place for abortions. When my eldest son's wife was pregnant, an ultrasound noticed that inside the fetus' head there was no detectable brain.
My immediate thought was, Oh no, if you give birth to a turnip, you need to care for this drooling child for years with no hope that they will ever become a self-sufficient adult. Please, this is the proper time to abort a fetus.
His wife refused to have an abortion. "The fetus is living and growing it deserves a chance at life".
She gave birth to a son with cerebral palsy [hydrocephalus]. My grandson is now four years old. He can not blink, nor swallow, his heart pumps and he can breath. He can not move his eyes, nor lift his head, or raise a finger. He is fed through a tube, and he will be for the rest of his life. Every week he gets bigger, Fortunately during the week of his birth, he qualified for life-long SSDI. The burden of care is huge for his mother. Soon he will be too big for his mother to lift him.
We do what we can to offer our Daughter-in-law support and encouragement. But the stress was too much for their marriage.
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Twinky
I am sorry to hear that, Galen. It's almost surprising that the pregnancy continued and didn't naturally abort.
Such a child is a huge burden on not just parents, but all the extended family and friends of the family. Not to mention on wider medical resources, which might be otherwise used for children who could truly benefit.
You didn't say if there were other children; I assume not. I am sure this one is dearly loved by at least his mother. And you too, by the sound of it.
Suppose such a child was born and there were two or three other children. Those children find themselves without any life, because all the effort goes into looking after the ultra-needy one. I know of one family where the disabled child (some sort of ultra-spine-bending illness and tightness of all muscles) had to be fostered out on a 1:1 basis, so that the other children could live a normal life. It was the most loving thing to do in all the circumstances. The foster-mother was very caring and the family visited regularly. The child lived until about the age of 7. I don't know if the illness could have been foreseen.
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Twinky
I do not know if there is a single right answer in this debate.
I do know there are many wrong answers, and a blanket "No abortion under any circumstances" is one of those. As also is, "You must abort!"
It seems doubtful that any cogent argument can be made for TWI's stance, except that unplanned pregnancies, especially by women not the spouses of the head honchos, would be very embarrassing (cough) for them, would blow the lid off their lewdness and bullying - and worse! (horror!) could involve some of those head honchos in providing financial maintenance for the children for many years.
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Ham
Glad to see you all again here. Among the x wayvers here, some have taken the opposite opinion. I was recently accused of being a Fetus Killer, only because I agreed to pay my share fair of taxes.. how the pendulum swings..
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Ham
Interesting topic though. We claimed abortion was not murder. But when it came to my second child, unplanned.. at that moment, I felt that abortion would be murder. Abortion was not even an option. TWI's stance just kind of melted away like butter on a hot stove on a warm day..
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Ham
I like Ken Kesey's take on abortion. Too many regrets if you choose that path..
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OldSkool
Ham!!!! Whats happening my friend?! Glad you are back.
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Ham
been too many other places.. life is weird like that..
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Rocky
My daughter hadn't married her daughter's father when she realized she was pregnant. Still didn't for a couple of years but I'm glad she didn't abort either the pregnancy or the relationship. Later they had a son.
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