Upon graduation, Way Corps ministers can expect their lives to be full and rewarding. They can be confident that God will continue to enrich their lives and supply their every need as they believe, because God’s Word works every time it is believed.
My first thought (TM) was those words are complete and total bulls*it.
Considering it more fully, two things occur to me. 1) That's undeniably magical thinking; and 2) worded so that if the "minister" encounters real life, i.e. obstacles, sickness, lack of funding, or any other real life trial/tribulation (John 16:33) the NOT TRANSFORMED into no longer being a cult TWI doesn't have to take responsibility for the minister lacking requisite believing to keep from experiencing those problems.
59 minutes ago, T-Bone said:
I wonder how long they can maintain the façade.
Does anyone care?
I bet skyrider could eloquently answer those two questions.
My first thought (TM) was those words are complete and total bulls*it.
Considering it more fully, two things occur to me. 1) That's undeniably magical thinking; and 2) worded so that if the "minister" encounters real life, i.e. obstacles, sickness, lack of funding, or any other real life trial/tribulation (John 16:33) the NOT TRANSFORMED into no longer being a cult TWI doesn't have to take responsibility for the minister lacking requisite believing to keep from experiencing those problems.
......
I bet skyrider could eloquently answer those two questions.
Way Corps "ministers" are put on a short leash to follow twi's inept bod-leadership. Under this arrangement, corps cannot expect to be enriched by God.... or that "God will meet their every need." That corps promo is nothing short of gobbledygook. Restrictions on every hand bring forth the putrid fruit of man. In fact, many corps grads are assigned to work at headquarters and are given a meager bi-monthly paycheck for their work. The Way International is thus..."meeting their need" or lack thereof.
True ministers of the Lord are NOT stuck in the chain-of-command structure. They are independent from bureaucratic constraints. Free to "live and move and have their being" in the Lord, walking with Him. In that context.....yes, God can and will supply. But twi puts people in a box of their own making.....and its a very small box constricting movement, growth and supply. All of twi's classes and programs lead one towards dependence on twi..... NOT dependence on the Lord where he shall be "like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season." [Psalm 1]
The C of E prefers its candidates for ordination to have done other work first, so some undertake a degree in (ay accountancy), practice as an accountant for a few years, then seek selection for ordination. It's not a given, even if someone appears suitable. There are extensive interviews with increasingly more senior ministers within the hierarchy, not to be exclusionary or punitive, but to be sure that the call is properly heard and responded to.
One of our previous curates did exactly this: had wanted to be a priest since a mid-teenager, not accepted and told to apply in a few years but to do something else working with people beforehand, so was an accountant for 4 or 5 years. Stayed with the ambition and has now been a priest for - must be over a decade now. Current curate was a ballerina. Many others have been teachers, youth workers, etc.
Not all those who "feel the call" are accepted, but they still have vital roles to play in the church life.
Training takes several years study, then (as it were) an apprenticeship to an experienced minister. You're looking at 5 or 6 years training before being let loose more or less unsupervised on the public.
My best friend is a Methodist minister. After several years as a lawyer, she too training, after extensive personal discussions with senior Methodist staff to make sure she was really suited to the role. Then, three years or more theological college, then another one or two as a probationer minister, before now being loosed on her own congregations (she's been a qualified minister for well over a decade now).
That's magical thinking, AND the phrasing makes it clear that twi is putting God Almighty on the hook for meeting any needs of their participants.
A) Is every corps grad ordained now? NO. vpw set up the corps as a pseudo- ministerial program (he lacked experience with ANY ministerial program) as a ripoff of existing leadership training from denominations. Corps not only are not ordained, they're kept on a TIGHTER LEASH than the rank-and-file because they've shown twi that twi can exploit them FURTHER than they can exploit Joe Sixpack. No, they won't "lead" anything, nor will they work independently nor in a manner not kow-towing to twi.
B) Is the way corps program accredited? NO. The way corps receive a degree as follows: if they lacked ANY degree, they now have an Associate's in Biblical Studies, and if they already had a Bachelor's or higher, they now ALSO have a Bachelor's in Biblical Studies.
In either case, the degree is worth the paper it's printed on because it's UNACCREDITED. "They have as much authority to issue a degree as Schlotski's Deli!" Yes, the corps is a degree mill, in this respect no better than Pike's Peak.
The denominations that twi so freely mocks have MUCH more comprehensive programs for training their ministers. The vetting process for even STARTING is a lot more scrutinized-and selective- than twi's "you can stay as long as your money holds!"- vpw to lcm about whether he could remain in the corps.
"The denominations that twi so freely mocks have MUCH more comprehensive programs for training their ministers. The vetting process for even STARTING is a lot more scrutinized-and selective- than twi's "you can stay as long as your money holds!"- vpw to lcm about whether he could remain in the corps."
Wierwille was a man of deception. He grew up lazy, aloof and needed his older sisters to tutor him with his homework. While his older siblings carried on the farm work or went into business adventures, young victor didn't have the ability, fortitude or mindset to that end. Seemingly, victor sought to follow in the steps of other church leaders to gain recognition, status in society and an easier path in life.
After some 14 years in denominational church work, wierwille grew discontented in his limited surroundings. He despised the church board having power over his decisions and weekly teachings. For years, he had been attending other bible conventions and seminars in search of answers, a pathway forward. He was an unfulfilled pastor, a searching opportunist and an adulterer. He was adrift in a sea of envy, discontent and temptation.
Others had what wierwille wanted: freedom to move and teach at will. More and more, wierwille plagiarized from others. Whole teachings. Stolen classes. No longer was wierwille tethered to any sense of morality or integrity of heart. He was blatantly stealing from other teachers, other ministers. He had crossed the line in the early 1950s and stayed on this path for the rest of his life. Wierwille was deceptive to the very end.
His corps program, in my opinion.......was built with the pillars of 1) power and 2) control in mind. With each passing year, the corps versus non-corps became a growing chasm in wierwille's ministry, The Way International. Wierwille had stumbled into a formula to DIVIDE the youth.....and CONQUER their allegiance. He became a dictator with power to wield over thousands upon thousands! He had segregated his ministry into two groups: corps and non-corps. The CORPS were to be the mini-leaders over the non-corps. If you didn't get the corps training....indoctrination then you weren't "corps." Go read the corps letters and see the segregation and power-grab.
Wierwille was a man with many pathologies. He had no intention of adhering to the standards of "other denominations".......he had found a pathway that worked to build his kingdom, his power structure. Period. Any corps grads who STILL holds to this elusive and elitist scam of being "special" because they are corps grads..........must live in a little, secluded, self-absorbed world.
My first thought (TM) was those words are complete and total bulls*it...Considering it more fully, two things occur to me. 1) That's undeniably magical thinking; and 2) worded so that if the "minister" encounters real life, i.e. obstacles, sickness, lack of funding, or any other real life trial/tribulation (John 16:33) the NOT TRANSFORMED into no longer being a cult TWI doesn't have to take responsibility for the minister lacking requisite believing to keep from experiencing those problems.
Rocky,
Thanks for your input. I just replied to OldSkool on a thread in doctrinal – and thought I’d mention part of it here since I think it ties in well with your mention of magical thinking and ministers experiencing real life problems.
This first excerpt is about magical thinking – it's interesting on how it's difficult to pin down someone on exactly what is the plausible link of causation and also has some good tips on how we can put magical thinking in check when we find we're leaning in that direction - if interested in the whole article – the link is right below that:
“One of my patients suffers from chronic constipation due to irritable bowel syndrome. During the literally 20 years since she was first diagnosed, her symptom pattern has remained remarkably consistent: She has perhaps 1-2 bowel movements per week, occasionally accompanied by some mild cramping. Even she admits the symptoms are more a bother than a worry.
And yet, every time I prescribe a new medicine for one of her other ailments, within a day or two she calls me up complaining that it's causing her to become constipated. When I ask if she means that while on the new medicine she has fewer bowel movements or more abdominal pain, her answer is always no.
And yet she adamantly refuses to continue with the new medication, insisting it's the cause of a symptom complex she's had for two decades. And no matter how cogently I argue that the new medicine can't be to blame (and I'm always careful to pick medicines not known to cause or exacerbate constipation), she refuses to continue with it.
Though certainly she could be right about 1 or even 2 pills exacerbating her constipation, the likelihood that all 16 pills I've given her have caused the same exact symptom in the context of the symptom already existing is just too far-fetched. A much more likely explanation is that she's indulging in magical thinking.
Magical thinking is defined as believing that one event happens as a result of another without a plausible link of causation. For example: "I got up on the left side of the bed today; therefore it will rain."
The problem with this definition, however, is that exactly what constitutes "a plausible link of causation" can be difficult to pin down. If we were to take this phrase to its logical extreme, we'd have to consider a belief in anything that hasn't been scientifically proven to represent magical thinking. On the other hand, rejecting the use of any and all criteria with which to judge cause and effect leaves us vulnerable to believing that anything can cause anything—or even worse, that an effect can occur without a cause at all.
Perhaps, then, a more nuanced definition of magical thinking would be believing in things more strongly than either evidence or experience justifies. Though I can't prove the sun will rise in the east tomorrow, because it has every day since I've been alive, such a belief couldn't then be said to represent magical thinking. But because every person who's ever jumped off a building or a bridge has gone down and not up, believing that flapping my arms hard enough would enable me to float into the sky certainly would.
Problems with this definition remain, however. For one thing, simply in order to live we have to believe things without proof. If we refused to believe what our doctors, plumbers, electricians, barbers, or nannies told us without first being shown incontrovertible evidence, our lives would come to a grinding halt. For another thing, some questions we burn to answer aren't necessarily provable or disprovable…”
…How can we stop thinking magically?
Magical thinking remains a subtle obstacle to making good decisions. But the more we observe ourselves, the more we can reduce our tendency to indulge in it:
1. Consciously identify your desires and biases. Write them down. Try to identify their cause. Work to free yourself from them to the best of your ability.
2. Demand proof when proof seems demonstrable. Try to remain intellectually "agnostic" toward what hasn't been proven or isn't provable, even if you find yourself emotionally inclined to believe it. Try to regard your belief as just that—an inclination—so that you're not tempted to act with more confidence in your belief than is justified.
3. Beware the tendency to let others think for you. This is as insidious as it is widespread. A journalist presents a position about a topic of the day and has his or her opinion accepted as fact. One friend makes a statement about another and everyone accepts it as true without bothering to investigate themselves. Though I don't agree with many of the principles espoused by Ayn Rand in her book, The Fountainhead, the point she makes about how so many of us subjugate our judgment to others is worth taking to heart (a great read, by the way, which I highly recommend).
We all tend to cling not only to the things we believe but the reasoning that leads us to believe them. Despite all my efforts, I've not yet been able to break through my patient's magical thinking about the cause of her constipation. So I continue to do what I've done: chant to manifest the wisdom to somehow find a way to succeed, having proven to myself many times over that chanting has the power to yield wisdom I didn't know I had—a power, however, that can only ever be proven by someone to themselves.”
From: Psychology Today - magical thinking
= = = = = = = = = = =
Concerning “ministers” of TWI or any other leaders who subscribe to the law of believing/magical thinking – take a tip from me there is no such thing !
About the time that I left TWI, I had a voracious appetite to read anything that challenged me to think outside TWI’s theological box…One way I tried to determine if the law of believing/magical thinking was legit, was to see if Jesus Christ’s example supported or opposed this whole law of believing/magical thinking concept…if there indeed was such a law, principle or force – then Jesus Christ would be one of the most pessimistic-doom-that-came-into-the-room-fatalistic-cynical-defeatist persons you’d ever want to meet …in the book Beyond Seduction: A Return to Biblical Christianity by Dave Hunt it mentions E.W. Kenyon founder of the Word of Faith/positive confession movement and the ridiculous idea of Jesus bringing setbacks and catastrophes on himself and others. From page 33, under the section, What About the “Negative Confessions” of God and Christ? :
“Foundational to the Positive Confession movement is the belief that there is a power inherent within words which causes whatever one says to come to pass, and that one must therefore be extremely careful only to make positive statements. E.W. Kenyon, who is the founder of this movement, taught that Jesus “was always positive in His message.” One need not read very far in the New Testament to prove that statement false. In fact, if it is true that we create what we speak, then we must charge Jesus with bringing disaster not only upon Himself but upon others as well. His numerous “negative confessions,” such as “The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests, but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head” (Matthew 8:20), must have been the cause of the poverty that plagued Him and His disciples. And the same must be said of His frequent statements to His followers that He was going to be crucified, even insisting upon this fact when Peter attempted to urge upon Him a more “positive” attitude (Matthew 16:21 - 23).
If “you get what you say,” then Christ’s numerous “negative confessions” not only brought upon Himself poverty, suffering, and death but brought it upon the entire world as well. Was not His prophecy of the coming destruction of Jerusalem a “negative confession” that caused this very tragedy in 70 A.D.? And are not the prophecies of Jesus and His apostles concerning the great tribulation, the rule of Antichrist, and the coming Battle of Armageddon “negative confessions” that will bring these horrible events upon the world? And what about Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and the many other Old Testament prophets who made repeated “negative confessions” of judgement upon Israel and many other nations?” https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Seduction-Return-Biblical-Christianity/dp/0890815585
Way Corps "ministers" are put on a short leash to follow twi's inept bod-leadership. Under this arrangement, corps cannot expect to be enriched by God.... or that "God will meet their every need." That corps promo is nothing short of gobbledygook. Restrictions on every hand bring forth the putrid fruit of man. In fact, many corps grads are assigned to work at headquarters and are given a meager bi-monthly paycheck for their work. The Way International is thus..."meeting their need" or lack thereof.
True ministers of the Lord are NOT stuck in the chain-of-command structure. They are independent from bureaucratic constraints. Free to "live and move and have their being" in the Lord, walking with Him. In that context.....yes, God can and will supply. But twi puts people in a box of their own making.....and its a very small box constricting movement, growth and supply. All of twi's classes and programs lead one towards dependence on twi..... NOT dependence on the Lord where he shall be "like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season." [Psalm 1]
Skyrider, I always appreciate what you share – it not only gives me a peek inside the inner workings of TWI – but besides the spectacularly unsuccessful and disordered bureaucracy of that hot mess – there’s also the bittersweet fact that there were some good, honest God-loving leaders who probably bore the brunt of the worst of what’s coming down the pike from HQ… …I believe I have met some true ministers like you talked about – who cared a lot about folks – who had probably just as much compassion for people as they had conviction for the truth of The Word of God…they are the ones who made me feel some sense of God’s personal interest in my life.
The C of E prefers its candidates for ordination to have done other work first, so some undertake a degree in (ay accountancy), practice as an accountant for a few years, then seek selection for ordination. It's not a given, even if someone appears suitable. There are extensive interviews with increasingly more senior ministers within the hierarchy, not to be exclusionary or punitive, but to be sure that the call is properly heard and responded to.
One of our previous curates did exactly this: had wanted to be a priest since a mid-teenager, not accepted and told to apply in a few years but to do something else working with people beforehand, so was an accountant for 4 or 5 years. Stayed with the ambition and has now been a priest for - must be over a decade now. Current curate was a ballerina. Many others have been teachers, youth workers, etc.
Not all those who "feel the call" are accepted, but they still have vital roles to play in the church life.
Training takes several years study, then (as it were) an apprenticeship to an experienced minister. You're looking at 5 or 6 years training before being let loose more or less unsupervised on the public.
My best friend is a Methodist minister. After several years as a lawyer, she too training, after extensive personal discussions with senior Methodist staff to make sure she was really suited to the role. Then, three years or more theological college, then another one or two as a probationer minister, before now being loosed on her own congregations (she's been a qualified minister for well over a decade now).
On 9/12/2021 at 8:49 PM, WordWolf said:
That's magical thinking, AND the phrasing makes it clear that twi is putting God Almighty on the hook for meeting any needs of their participants.
A) Is every corps grad ordained now? NO. vpw set up the corps as a pseudo- ministerial program (he lacked experience with ANY ministerial program) as a ripoff of existing leadership training from denominations. Corps not only are not ordained, they're kept on a TIGHTER LEASH than the rank-and-file because they've shown twi that twi can exploit them FURTHER than they can exploit Joe Sixpack. No, they won't "lead" anything, nor will they work independently nor in a manner not kow-towing to twi.
B) Is the way corps program accredited? NO. The way corps receive a degree as follows: if they lacked ANY degree, they now have an Associate's in Biblical Studies, and if they already had a Bachelor's or higher, they now ALSO have a Bachelor's in Biblical Studies.
In either case, the degree is worth the paper it's printed on because it's UNACCREDITED. "They have as much authority to issue a degree as Schlotski's Deli!" Yes, the corps is a degree mill, in this respect no better than Pike's Peak.
The denominations that twi so freely mocks have MUCH more comprehensive programs for training their ministers. The vetting process for even STARTING is a lot more scrutinized-and selective- than twi's "you can stay as long as your money holds!"- vpw to lcm about whether he could remain in the corps.
Twinky and WordWolf, thanks for your input - both your posts got me thinking what a thinly veiled cheapskate scheme the way corps program is, compared to the denominations that wierwille would speak of with such disdain…I think it’s rather obvious the core values of a denomination…or for that matter some two-bit cult, are reflected in the selection, vetting process and education of a minister…I am not familiar with the intensive process like what Twinky described. But unfortunately, I am well-acquainted with wierwille’s cheap-a$$ imitation (the way corps program) …
…it’s obvious to me that the ordination process like what Twinky described and like the ones I gave links to in my first post reveal most denominations have a genuine concern for things like looking into the person’s character, appraising their sense of calling, seeing if the life of a minister is a good fit for them, providing a proper theological education as well as mentoring…to me, all that seems like an honest attempt to approach some biblical standard as mentioned in passages like Romans 12I Corinthians 12Ephesians 4: 11 - 13II Timothy 2 and 3 and Titus 1 and 2 seems like some worthwhile core values to me...
...Now…on the other hand - reflecting on my way corps training - it was a meagerly disguised clone factory. We had to eat, sleep, and breathe PFAL. So, what does that tell you? What was important to TWI was that I would become a little wierwille clone.
Edited by T-Bone the minister of editing: Reverend Typos
"...Now…on the other hand - reflecting on my way corps training - it was a meagerly disguised clone factory. We had to eat, sleep, and breathe PFAL. So, what does that tell you? What was important to TWI was that I would become a little wierwille clone."
Nobody ever seems to be able to remember ANYONE EVER being turned down for the corps. So long as you had your money, you were ok to proceed. In ministerial programs, that's not the case. In fact, some of the time, it sounds like they're trying to convince people NOT to join, reminding the responsibilities and duties involved, and checking that the candidate has indeed thought all of them through.
Does the corps get professional training in counseling? No. Does the corps get professional training in anything? Some corps have reported that the Dale Carnegie SALES course was taught to them. That tells the priorities right there. The Corps is not trained to lead, not trained to counsel, they are trained to SELL- they are seen as revenue generating sources (by "selling" new recruits on twi, thus garnering 15% or more of their income.)
vpw himself complained he thought that some corps were signing up JUST to get the Sales course taught. That's a rather roundabout way to get one sales course that's available commercially. BTW, twi wasn't/ isn't paying for the rights for the course, they're teaching it in-house and not telling the copyright holder they're using their material- just like vpw did with BG Leonard's class, which became all 3 levels of pfal when stretched out. This really shouldn't be a surprise at this point.
My biggest disappointment with the way corps training as well as living as active way corps was learning that the commitment I made in "salting myself to a lifetime of Christian sevice" to the way international was the commitment is one sided. As noted in previous posts on this tread and is encapsulated in the fololowing quote from TWI website:
Quote
They can be confident that God will continue to enrich their lives and supply their every need as they believe, because God’s Word works every time it is believed.
God will have to enrich their lives and supply their every need because the way international will do little to help them. Commitments biblically are typically a two way street. For example, a doulos (bond slave), would commit theirselves to serve their master's household and in turn they would be taken care of for their service and sacrifice. The way international expects the way corps to stay salted to the ministry that taught them the word (barf-ola) while the way international feels it owes nobody anything. The way international has a very long and sordid track record of using people up and tossing them aside when finished. The way international is a fiduciary by the very nature of their salted relationship with the way corps. But that is a one sided commitment. As way corps I salted myself to the way international yet they never salted themselves to me, not ever not once.
Of course if the way would actually follow the bible they wouldn't ask anyone to take a salt commitment ever.
Quote
Matthew 5:33-37
Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
God will have to enrich their lives and supply their every need because the way international will do little to help them. Commitments biblically are typically a two way street. For example, a doulos (bond slave), would commit theirselves to serve their master's household and in turn they would be taken care of for their service and sacrifice.
Where do you think the European concept of slavery came from? How was it practiced?
Mainly from the practices of the East India Company, et al. My illustration of doulos has a very narrow application in how I used it. Metaphorically the emphasis is one who gives himself up to another's will those whose service is used by Christ. This metaphorical meaning emphasizes the willingness of the one to serve the interests of another, and the corresponding fiduciary nature of the one who is being served. In this case way corps serve the interest of the b.o.d. of the way international, except the way international doesn't recipricate the commitment. It's one sided in nature. Yet the way international uses this same metaphor to lillustrate how individuals are to become sold out bond servants to the way international. Yet the way international never talks about their responsibilities to the ones who have committed themselves to the way international because they ignore that responsibility.
Obviously, slavery in it's modern (and not so modern) practices is hideous and loaded with human rights abuseses. The etymology of the word slave emphasizes the many eastern european people from Slavic nations who were taken into slavery by Muslim conquerors.
As way corps I salted myself to the way international yet they never salted themselves to me, not ever not once.
I remember that salt covenant, and after they'd kicked me out (for no good reason) I suffered horribly from guilt.
Later, I re-evaluated that.
You might also remember that there was a pledge of allegiance too - to the US flag or whatever Americans pledge to. Not being American, of course, I never did that, nor would I ever want to. But in my heart I pledged my allegiance to God. Or more specifically, I think: I pledged allegiance to the Way Ministry and to the God for which it stands.
Later, I re-evaluated that, too.
Once I realised that The Way in no way whatsoever stood for God and what God is, wants, does, etc, I realised that my allegiance wasn't to the Way Ministry, because it didn't stand for God at all - but to God as God, directly, without any intervening organisation or person or thing.
I think I always knew and accepted that my salt covenant was to God and not the Way; it took me a while to work my head around that and kick out that induced self-condemnation. So while the salt covenant was a horrible guilt trip at first, later it kept me grounded and safe because instead of feeling as though I was a disgrace to God, I began to remember that God is good and never leaves us or forsakes us, no matter how "bad" we have been.
In fact, happy to tell you that God has well and truly kept his end of the salt covenant. Life has not been as anticipated; but it is full of blessings, amazing things that have happened, and abundant in all good things. Godliness with contentment is great gain. (1 Tim 6 bears re-reading!) (And I have a lot more than food and clothing with which to be content!!)
I remember that salt covenant, and after they'd kicked me out (for no good reason) I suffered horribly from guilt.
I think I always knew and accepted that my salt covenant was to God and not the Way; it took me a while to work my head around that and kick out that induced self-condemnation. So while the salt covenant was a horrible guilt trip at first, later it kept me grounded and safe because instead of feeling as though I was a disgrace to God, I began to remember that God is good and never leaves us or forsakes us, no matter how "bad" we have been.
And this is exactly how they use the salt covenant - as leverage! I actually heard Rosalie say during a cabinet meeting that way corps who had taken the salt covenant andd copped out (and quit being way corps) suffered much greater consequences because they had taken the salt covenant and broken it, which is (not quite but damn near) almost unforgivable from God's perspective. Yet the Bible tells us not to swear an oath of the type that we swore upon graduation into the way corps.
Mainly from the practices of the East India Company, et al. My illustration of doulos has a very narrow application in how I used it. Metaphorically the emphasis is one who gives himself up to another's will those whose service is used by Christ.
THEY got it from the bible, probably not as narrowly defined as yours.
THEY got it from the bible, probably not as narrowly defined as yours.
Oh, no doubt - I'm sure the way international has varying shades of meaning depending on who the presenter is and if they are promoting some damn program...lol
Nobody ever seems to be able to remember ANYONE EVER being turned down for the corps. So long as you had your money, you were ok to proceed.
Other than lack of money, I can only recall one coupled who were turned down. The reason given was a minor medical condition that the wife had. Although not long after he was thrown out and M&A'd and they divorced
The C of E prefers its candidates for ordination to have done other work first, so some undertake a degree in (ay accountancy), practice as an accountant for a few years, then seek selection for ordination. It's not a given, even if someone appears suitable. There are extensive interviews with increasingly more senior ministers within the hierarchy, not to be exclusionary or punitive, but to be sure that the call is properly heard and responded to.
One of our previous curates did exactly this: had wanted to be a priest since a mid-teenager, not accepted and told to apply in a few years but to do something else working with people beforehand, so was an accountant for 4 or 5 years. Stayed with the ambition and has now been a priest for - must be over a decade now. Current curate was a ballerina. Many others have been teachers, youth workers, etc.
Not all those who "feel the call" are accepted, but they still have vital roles to play in the church life.
Training takes several years study, then (as it were) an apprenticeship to an experienced minister. You're looking at 5 or 6 years training before being let loose more or less unsupervised on the public.
My best friend is a Methodist minister. After several years as a lawyer, she too training, after extensive personal discussions with senior Methodist staff to make sure she was really suited to the role. Then, three years or more theological college, then another one or two as a probationer minister, before now being loosed on her own congregations (she's been a qualified minister for well over a decade now).
Makes me wonder what kind of process VPW went through before he went to theological college and then got ordained as a minister in whatever church it was. What sort of selection process did he undergo? Surely at the least, references would have been sought from his home church. And then, interviews, at least one or two, with others in the church hierarchy? Or did he just take himself off to theo college, without church support, and offer his services to a local church afterwards - in some sort of capacity though not necessarily as an ordained person.
As I understand it, he was actually ordained as a church minister and fulfilledthat role for a period. But then - that might be a big lie, too. He tells tales about that church in his film PFAL. But then, he tells many tales. Has anybody actually seen any kind of ordination certificate? Perhaps he was only ever a probationary minister of some kind.
So if he never went through any kind of selection process, not surprising that there was no proper procedure for selecting candidates for Way ministerial roles. Much more than "heart" is required, and very much more than being nice to people a few times and reading the Bible once or twice. Even if one could recite the entire Bible from memory, it wouldn't make for being a good minister. In fact, likely exactly the opposite.
vpw worked for the Evangelical and Reformed Church. It's interesting that- although they had colleges and institutions of learning- that vpw didn't go to any of those for any level of his education.
Ok, according to TWLiL, vpw said that in 1957, Uncle Harry proposed changing the farm to a new headquarters, and that work began on that in 1959, and they moved in Feb 1961. (For reasons never explained, Mrs W said they moved in the middle of a big snowstorm, which I think is wildly impractical.) vpw said he had a BOD meeting for his congregation, and the president thought vpw should move things to Troy rather than out on a farm- probably because that's where the congregation was (Troy.) In 1961, meetings were in the house's basement since that's what was completed and could hold a meeting at the time.
Let's see. Graduated Lakeland College 1937 (Bachelors). Graduated Princeton Theological Seminary 1941 (Masters.) He did "trial sermons" in Payne Ohio for the ERC, 1941. According to his memorial, in 1941 July he began work with his first pastorate, and received his ordination July 29, 1941. This conflicts with TWLiL, where he started his first pastorate anywhere in 1944 in Van Wert, and stayed there until 1957.
According to TWLiL and other sources, he did a radio show in the 1940s and other side jobs not related to his pastorate all through the 1940s and 1950s. In 1952/1953, he encountered/plagiarized Leonard's class and Stiles' book, and peddled both as his own work. vpw's overseas tour was supposedly 1955-1956. In 1957. supposedly, he returned to Van Wert, and cut all ties with the ERC.
In 1957, the ERC as a body merged with the Congregational Christian Churches to form the United Church of Christ.
I don't think it's a coincidence that this was the time vpw jumped ship. The church was going to undergo changes, he'd already sponged some long trip from SOMEBODY, and he had a class and book to sell. He tried to keep his congregation, and tried to move things permanently to the farm.
Strictly speaking, I've never seen an ordination certificate. I think he got SOMETHING, but probably used the easiest path to get it. He found a pretext to be called "Dr", so getting "Reverend" would have been easier. Heck, we can get that now easily enough if we don't sweat the source.
I think that it was true that vpw preached/ did sermons, usually ripping something off of someone else's work. That's been his M.O. all along. So, I think he applied based on his paperwork, showed up, and did the "trial sermons". I think they took him on as a probationary pastor, then made it permanent some time later. I think his story about teaching for a month on tithing was complete fiction- since it would have interfered with getting placed as a permanent pastor. He didn't spend the work to get a pastorate just to have to start all over. He was smart enough not to rock the boat when he could be replaced so quickly and easily. Later, it was easy to lie about that with no consequences, and we got all the versions of the story about how he rocked the boat the first month and fixated on tithing.
Later, it was easy to lie about that with no consequences, and we got all the versions of the story about how he rocked the boat the first month and fixated on tithing.
That rocking the boat element of his fake persona is used to draw parallels to wierwille and Martin Luther and other big names in Christendom. Also ties back to the idea that our father in the word took on the religous establishment....breaking off from the churches oversight and then drawing school of Tyrannus comparisons from Acts.
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Rocky
My first thought (TM) was those words are complete and total bulls*it.
Considering it more fully, two things occur to me. 1) That's undeniably magical thinking; and 2) worded so that if the "minister" encounters real life, i.e. obstacles, sickness, lack of funding, or any other real life trial/tribulation (John 16:33) the NOT TRANSFORMED into no longer being a cult TWI doesn't have to take responsibility for the minister lacking requisite believing to keep from experiencing those problems.
I bet skyrider could eloquently answer those two questions.
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skyrider
Way Corps "ministers" are put on a short leash to follow twi's inept bod-leadership. Under this arrangement, corps cannot expect to be enriched by God.... or that "God will meet their every need." That corps promo is nothing short of gobbledygook. Restrictions on every hand bring forth the putrid fruit of man. In fact, many corps grads are assigned to work at headquarters and are given a meager bi-monthly paycheck for their work. The Way International is thus..."meeting their need" or lack thereof.
True ministers of the Lord are NOT stuck in the chain-of-command structure. They are independent from bureaucratic constraints. Free to "live and move and have their being" in the Lord, walking with Him. In that context.....yes, God can and will supply. But twi puts people in a box of their own making.....and its a very small box constricting movement, growth and supply. All of twi's classes and programs lead one towards dependence on twi..... NOT dependence on the Lord where he shall be "like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season." [Psalm 1]
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Twinky
Anglican church requirements:
Preparing for Ordained Ministry | The Church of England
The C of E prefers its candidates for ordination to have done other work first, so some undertake a degree in (ay accountancy), practice as an accountant for a few years, then seek selection for ordination. It's not a given, even if someone appears suitable. There are extensive interviews with increasingly more senior ministers within the hierarchy, not to be exclusionary or punitive, but to be sure that the call is properly heard and responded to.
One of our previous curates did exactly this: had wanted to be a priest since a mid-teenager, not accepted and told to apply in a few years but to do something else working with people beforehand, so was an accountant for 4 or 5 years. Stayed with the ambition and has now been a priest for - must be over a decade now. Current curate was a ballerina. Many others have been teachers, youth workers, etc.
Not all those who "feel the call" are accepted, but they still have vital roles to play in the church life.
Training takes several years study, then (as it were) an apprenticeship to an experienced minister. You're looking at 5 or 6 years training before being let loose more or less unsupervised on the public.
My best friend is a Methodist minister. After several years as a lawyer, she too training, after extensive personal discussions with senior Methodist staff to make sure she was really suited to the role. Then, three years or more theological college, then another one or two as a probationer minister, before now being loosed on her own congregations (she's been a qualified minister for well over a decade now).
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WordWolf
That's magical thinking, AND the phrasing makes it clear that twi is putting God Almighty on the hook for meeting any needs of their participants.
A) Is every corps grad ordained now? NO. vpw set up the corps as a pseudo- ministerial program (he lacked experience with ANY ministerial program) as a ripoff of existing leadership training from denominations. Corps not only are not ordained, they're kept on a TIGHTER LEASH than the rank-and-file because they've shown twi that twi can exploit them FURTHER than they can exploit Joe Sixpack. No, they won't "lead" anything, nor will they work independently nor in a manner not kow-towing to twi.
B) Is the way corps program accredited? NO. The way corps receive a degree as follows: if they lacked ANY degree, they now have an Associate's in Biblical Studies, and if they already had a Bachelor's or higher, they now ALSO have a Bachelor's in Biblical Studies.
In either case, the degree is worth the paper it's printed on because it's UNACCREDITED. "They have as much authority to issue a degree as Schlotski's Deli!" Yes, the corps is a degree mill, in this respect no better than Pike's Peak.
The denominations that twi so freely mocks have MUCH more comprehensive programs for training their ministers. The vetting process for even STARTING is a lot more scrutinized-and selective- than twi's "you can stay as long as your money holds!"- vpw to lcm about whether he could remain in the corps.
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skyrider
"The denominations that twi so freely mocks have MUCH more comprehensive programs for training their ministers. The vetting process for even STARTING is a lot more scrutinized-and selective- than twi's "you can stay as long as your money holds!"- vpw to lcm about whether he could remain in the corps."
Wierwille was a man of deception. He grew up lazy, aloof and needed his older sisters to tutor him with his homework. While his older siblings carried on the farm work or went into business adventures, young victor didn't have the ability, fortitude or mindset to that end. Seemingly, victor sought to follow in the steps of other church leaders to gain recognition, status in society and an easier path in life.
After some 14 years in denominational church work, wierwille grew discontented in his limited surroundings. He despised the church board having power over his decisions and weekly teachings. For years, he had been attending other bible conventions and seminars in search of answers, a pathway forward. He was an unfulfilled pastor, a searching opportunist and an adulterer. He was adrift in a sea of envy, discontent and temptation.
Others had what wierwille wanted: freedom to move and teach at will. More and more, wierwille plagiarized from others. Whole teachings. Stolen classes. No longer was wierwille tethered to any sense of morality or integrity of heart. He was blatantly stealing from other teachers, other ministers. He had crossed the line in the early 1950s and stayed on this path for the rest of his life. Wierwille was deceptive to the very end.
His corps program, in my opinion.......was built with the pillars of 1) power and 2) control in mind. With each passing year, the corps versus non-corps became a growing chasm in wierwille's ministry, The Way International. Wierwille had stumbled into a formula to DIVIDE the youth.....and CONQUER their allegiance. He became a dictator with power to wield over thousands upon thousands! He had segregated his ministry into two groups: corps and non-corps. The CORPS were to be the mini-leaders over the non-corps. If you didn't get the corps
training....indoctrination then you weren't "corps." Go read the corps letters and see the segregation and power-grab.Wierwille was a man with many pathologies. He had no intention of adhering to the standards of "other denominations".......he had found a pathway that worked to build his kingdom, his power structure. Period. Any corps grads who STILL holds to this elusive and elitist scam of being "special" because they are corps grads..........must live in a little, secluded, self-absorbed world.
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T-Bone
Rocky,
Thanks for your input. I just replied to OldSkool on a thread in doctrinal – and thought I’d mention part of it here since I think it ties in well with your mention of magical thinking and ministers experiencing real life problems.
This first excerpt is about magical thinking – it's interesting on how it's difficult to pin down someone on exactly what is the plausible link of causation and also has some good tips on how we can put magical thinking in check when we find we're leaning in that direction - if interested in the whole article – the link is right below that:
“One of my patients suffers from chronic constipation due to irritable bowel syndrome. During the literally 20 years since she was first diagnosed, her symptom pattern has remained remarkably consistent: She has perhaps 1-2 bowel movements per week, occasionally accompanied by some mild cramping. Even she admits the symptoms are more a bother than a worry.
And yet, every time I prescribe a new medicine for one of her other ailments, within a day or two she calls me up complaining that it's causing her to become constipated. When I ask if she means that while on the new medicine she has fewer bowel movements or more abdominal pain, her answer is always no.
And yet she adamantly refuses to continue with the new medication, insisting it's the cause of a symptom complex she's had for two decades. And no matter how cogently I argue that the new medicine can't be to blame (and I'm always careful to pick medicines not known to cause or exacerbate constipation), she refuses to continue with it.
Though certainly she could be right about 1 or even 2 pills exacerbating her constipation, the likelihood that all 16 pills I've given her have caused the same exact symptom in the context of the symptom already existing is just too far-fetched. A much more likely explanation is that she's indulging in magical thinking.
Magical thinking is defined as believing that one event happens as a result of another without a plausible link of causation. For example: "I got up on the left side of the bed today; therefore it will rain."
The problem with this definition, however, is that exactly what constitutes "a plausible link of causation" can be difficult to pin down. If we were to take this phrase to its logical extreme, we'd have to consider a belief in anything that hasn't been scientifically proven to represent magical thinking. On the other hand, rejecting the use of any and all criteria with which to judge cause and effect leaves us vulnerable to believing that anything can cause anything—or even worse, that an effect can occur without a cause at all.
Perhaps, then, a more nuanced definition of magical thinking would be believing in things more strongly than either evidence or experience justifies. Though I can't prove the sun will rise in the east tomorrow, because it has every day since I've been alive, such a belief couldn't then be said to represent magical thinking. But because every person who's ever jumped off a building or a bridge has gone down and not up, believing that flapping my arms hard enough would enable me to float into the sky certainly would.
Problems with this definition remain, however. For one thing, simply in order to live we have to believe things without proof. If we refused to believe what our doctors, plumbers, electricians, barbers, or nannies told us without first being shown incontrovertible evidence, our lives would come to a grinding halt. For another thing, some questions we burn to answer aren't necessarily provable or disprovable…”
…How can we stop thinking magically?
Magical thinking remains a subtle obstacle to making good decisions. But the more we observe ourselves, the more we can reduce our tendency to indulge in it:
1. Consciously identify your desires and biases. Write them down. Try to identify their cause. Work to free yourself from them to the best of your ability.
2. Demand proof when proof seems demonstrable. Try to remain intellectually "agnostic" toward what hasn't been proven or isn't provable, even if you find yourself emotionally inclined to believe it. Try to regard your belief as just that—an inclination—so that you're not tempted to act with more confidence in your belief than is justified.
3. Beware the tendency to let others think for you. This is as insidious as it is widespread. A journalist presents a position about a topic of the day and has his or her opinion accepted as fact. One friend makes a statement about another and everyone accepts it as true without bothering to investigate themselves. Though I don't agree with many of the principles espoused by Ayn Rand in her book, The Fountainhead, the point she makes about how so many of us subjugate our judgment to others is worth taking to heart (a great read, by the way, which I highly recommend).
We all tend to cling not only to the things we believe but the reasoning that leads us to believe them. Despite all my efforts, I've not yet been able to break through my patient's magical thinking about the cause of her constipation. So I continue to do what I've done: chant to manifest the wisdom to somehow find a way to succeed, having proven to myself many times over that chanting has the power to yield wisdom I didn't know I had—a power, however, that can only ever be proven by someone to themselves.”
From: Psychology Today - magical thinking
= = = = = = = = = = =
Concerning “ministers” of TWI or any other leaders who subscribe to the law of believing/magical thinking – take a tip from me there is no such thing !
About the time that I left TWI, I had a voracious appetite to read anything that challenged me to think outside TWI’s theological box…One way I tried to determine if the law of believing/magical thinking was legit, was to see if Jesus Christ’s example supported or opposed this whole law of believing/magical thinking concept…if there indeed was such a law, principle or force – then Jesus Christ would be one of the most pessimistic-doom-that-came-into-the-room-fatalistic-cynical-defeatist persons you’d ever want to meet …in the book Beyond Seduction: A Return to Biblical Christianity by Dave Hunt it mentions E.W. Kenyon founder of the Word of Faith/positive confession movement and the ridiculous idea of Jesus bringing setbacks and catastrophes on himself and others. From page 33, under the section, What About the “Negative Confessions” of God and Christ? :
“Foundational to the Positive Confession movement is the belief that there is a power inherent within words which causes whatever one says to come to pass, and that one must therefore be extremely careful only to make positive statements. E.W. Kenyon, who is the founder of this movement, taught that Jesus “was always positive in His message.” One need not read very far in the New Testament to prove that statement false. In fact, if it is true that we create what we speak, then we must charge Jesus with bringing disaster not only upon Himself but upon others as well. His numerous “negative confessions,” such as “The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests, but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head” (Matthew 8:20), must have been the cause of the poverty that plagued Him and His disciples. And the same must be said of His frequent statements to His followers that He was going to be crucified, even insisting upon this fact when Peter attempted to urge upon Him a more “positive” attitude (Matthew 16:21 - 23).
Edited by T-BoneIf “you get what you say,” then Christ’s numerous “negative confessions” not only brought upon Himself poverty, suffering, and death but brought it upon the entire world as well. Was not His prophecy of the coming destruction of Jerusalem a “negative confession” that caused this very tragedy in 70 A.D.? And are not the prophecies of Jesus and His apostles concerning the great tribulation, the rule of Antichrist, and the coming Battle of Armageddon “negative confessions” that will bring these horrible events upon the world? And what about Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and the many other Old Testament prophets who made repeated “negative confessions” of judgement upon Israel and many other nations?”
https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Seduction-Return-Biblical-Christianity/dp/0890815585
magical editing
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T-Bone
Skyrider, I always appreciate what you share – it not only gives me a peek inside the inner workings of TWI – but besides the spectacularly unsuccessful and disordered bureaucracy of that hot mess – there’s also the bittersweet fact that there were some good, honest God-loving leaders who probably bore the brunt of the worst of what’s coming down the pike from HQ… …I believe I have met some true ministers like you talked about – who cared a lot about folks – who had probably just as much compassion for people as they had conviction for the truth of The Word of God…they are the ones who made me feel some sense of God’s personal interest in my life.
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T-Bone
Twinky and WordWolf, thanks for your input - both your posts got me thinking what a thinly veiled cheapskate scheme the way corps program is, compared to the denominations that wierwille would speak of with such disdain…I think it’s rather obvious the core values of a denomination…or for that matter some two-bit cult, are reflected in the selection, vetting process and education of a minister…I am not familiar with the intensive process like what Twinky described. But unfortunately, I am well-acquainted with wierwille’s cheap-a$$ imitation (the way corps program) …
…it’s obvious to me that the ordination process like what Twinky described and like the ones I gave links to in my first post reveal most denominations have a genuine concern for things like looking into the person’s character, appraising their sense of calling, seeing if the life of a minister is a good fit for them, providing a proper theological education as well as mentoring…to me, all that seems like an honest attempt to approach some biblical standard as mentioned in passages like Romans 12 I Corinthians 12 Ephesians 4: 11 - 13 II Timothy 2 and 3 and Titus 1 and 2 seems like some worthwhile core values to me...
Edited by T-Bone...Now…on the other hand - reflecting on my way corps training - it was a meagerly disguised clone factory. We had to eat, sleep, and breathe PFAL. So, what does that tell you? What was important to TWI was that I would become a little wierwille clone.
the minister of editing: Reverend Typos
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WordWolf
"...Now…on the other hand - reflecting on my way corps training - it was a meagerly disguised clone factory. We had to eat, sleep, and breathe PFAL. So, what does that tell you? What was important to TWI was that I would become a little wierwille clone."
Nobody ever seems to be able to remember ANYONE EVER being turned down for the corps. So long as you had your money, you were ok to proceed. In ministerial programs, that's not the case. In fact, some of the time, it sounds like they're trying to convince people NOT to join, reminding the responsibilities and duties involved, and checking that the candidate has indeed thought all of them through.
Does the corps get professional training in counseling? No. Does the corps get professional training in anything? Some corps have reported that the Dale Carnegie SALES course was taught to them. That tells the priorities right there. The Corps is not trained to lead, not trained to counsel, they are trained to SELL- they are seen as revenue generating sources (by "selling" new recruits on twi, thus garnering 15% or more of their income.)
vpw himself complained he thought that some corps were signing up JUST to get the Sales course taught. That's a rather roundabout way to get one sales course that's available commercially. BTW, twi wasn't/ isn't paying for the rights for the course, they're teaching it in-house and not telling the copyright holder they're using their material- just like vpw did with BG Leonard's class, which became all 3 levels of pfal when stretched out. This really shouldn't be a surprise at this point.
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OldSkool
My biggest disappointment with the way corps training as well as living as active way corps was learning that the commitment I made in "salting myself to a lifetime of Christian sevice" to the way international was the commitment is one sided. As noted in previous posts on this tread and is encapsulated in the fololowing quote from TWI website:
God will have to enrich their lives and supply their every need because the way international will do little to help them. Commitments biblically are typically a two way street. For example, a doulos (bond slave), would commit theirselves to serve their master's household and in turn they would be taken care of for their service and sacrifice. The way international expects the way corps to stay salted to the ministry that taught them the word (barf-ola) while the way international feels it owes nobody anything. The way international has a very long and sordid track record of using people up and tossing them aside when finished. The way international is a fiduciary by the very nature of their salted relationship with the way corps. But that is a one sided commitment. As way corps I salted myself to the way international yet they never salted themselves to me, not ever not once.
Of course if the way would actually follow the bible they wouldn't ask anyone to take a salt commitment ever.
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Rocky
Perhaps it's time to re-evaluate the biblical concept of a slave. Where do you think the European concept of slavery came from? How was it practiced? The movie 12 Years a Slave illustrates it well. https://www.amazon.com/12-Years-Slave-Benedict-Cumberbatch/dp/B00ICSVLPA
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OldSkool
Mainly from the practices of the East India Company, et al. My illustration of doulos has a very narrow application in how I used it. Metaphorically the emphasis is one who gives himself up to another's will those whose service is used by Christ. This metaphorical meaning emphasizes the willingness of the one to serve the interests of another, and the corresponding fiduciary nature of the one who is being served. In this case way corps serve the interest of the b.o.d. of the way international, except the way international doesn't recipricate the commitment. It's one sided in nature. Yet the way international uses this same metaphor to lillustrate how individuals are to become sold out bond servants to the way international. Yet the way international never talks about their responsibilities to the ones who have committed themselves to the way international because they ignore that responsibility.
Obviously, slavery in it's modern (and not so modern) practices is hideous and loaded with human rights abuseses. The etymology of the word slave emphasizes the many eastern european people from Slavic nations who were taken into slavery by Muslim conquerors.
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Twinky
I remember that salt covenant, and after they'd kicked me out (for no good reason) I suffered horribly from guilt.
Later, I re-evaluated that.
You might also remember that there was a pledge of allegiance too - to the US flag or whatever Americans pledge to. Not being American, of course, I never did that, nor would I ever want to. But in my heart I pledged my allegiance to God. Or more specifically, I think: I pledged allegiance to the Way Ministry and to the God for which it stands.
Later, I re-evaluated that, too.
Once I realised that The Way in no way whatsoever stood for God and what God is, wants, does, etc, I realised that my allegiance wasn't to the Way Ministry, because it didn't stand for God at all - but to God as God, directly, without any intervening organisation or person or thing.
I think I always knew and accepted that my salt covenant was to God and not the Way; it took me a while to work my head around that and kick out that induced self-condemnation. So while the salt covenant was a horrible guilt trip at first, later it kept me grounded and safe because instead of feeling as though I was a disgrace to God, I began to remember that God is good and never leaves us or forsakes us, no matter how "bad" we have been.
In fact, happy to tell you that God has well and truly kept his end of the salt covenant. Life has not been as anticipated; but it is full of blessings, amazing things that have happened, and abundant in all good things. Godliness with contentment is great gain. (1 Tim 6 bears re-reading!) (And I have a lot more than food and clothing with which to be content!!)
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OldSkool
And this is exactly how they use the salt covenant - as leverage! I actually heard Rosalie say during a cabinet meeting that way corps who had taken the salt covenant andd copped out (and quit being way corps) suffered much greater consequences because they had taken the salt covenant and broken it, which is (not quite but damn near) almost unforgivable from God's perspective. Yet the Bible tells us not to swear an oath of the type that we swore upon graduation into the way corps.
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Rocky
THEY got it from the bible, probably not as narrowly defined as yours.
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OldSkool
Oh, no doubt - I'm sure the way international has varying shades of meaning depending on who the presenter is and if they are promoting some damn program...lol
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chockfull
Leave it to the Way to take a mineral substance, an eastern custom, and abusive leadership teachings to produce lifelong self doubt in Christians.
Is that their function in the body of Christ? To lead people to mental problems?
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chockfull
Salt is great. Pink Himalayan sea salt is my favorite. It’s a wonderful seasoning on all food.
As to an obscure eastern custom influencing me to unquestionably follow directives of lunatics, it doesn’t seem to retain that quality for me.
YMMV
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Oakspear
Other than lack of money, I can only recall one coupled who were turned down. The reason given was a minor medical condition that the wife had. Although not long after he was thrown out and M&A'd and they divorced
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T-Bone
Big deal if they have the book of Mormon - we have the PFAL book - and it's orange!!!!
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OldSkool
Yeah baby...spayshul revelation that's blaze orange...u can read it while hunting and be safe from friendly fire
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Twinky
Makes me wonder what kind of process VPW went through before he went to theological college and then got ordained as a minister in whatever church it was. What sort of selection process did he undergo? Surely at the least, references would have been sought from his home church. And then, interviews, at least one or two, with others in the church hierarchy? Or did he just take himself off to theo college, without church support, and offer his services to a local church afterwards - in some sort of capacity though not necessarily as an ordained person.
As I understand it, he was actually ordained as a church minister and fulfilledthat role for a period. But then - that might be a big lie, too. He tells tales about that church in his film PFAL. But then, he tells many tales. Has anybody actually seen any kind of ordination certificate? Perhaps he was only ever a probationary minister of some kind.
So if he never went through any kind of selection process, not surprising that there was no proper procedure for selecting candidates for Way ministerial roles. Much more than "heart" is required, and very much more than being nice to people a few times and reading the Bible once or twice. Even if one could recite the entire Bible from memory, it wouldn't make for being a good minister. In fact, likely exactly the opposite.
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WordWolf
vpw worked for the Evangelical and Reformed Church. It's interesting that- although they had colleges and institutions of learning- that vpw didn't go to any of those for any level of his education.
Ok, according to TWLiL, vpw said that in 1957, Uncle Harry proposed changing the farm to a new headquarters, and that work began on that in 1959, and they moved in Feb 1961. (For reasons never explained, Mrs W said they moved in the middle of a big snowstorm, which I think is wildly impractical.) vpw said he had a BOD meeting for his congregation, and the president thought vpw should move things to Troy rather than out on a farm- probably because that's where the congregation was (Troy.) In 1961, meetings were in the house's basement since that's what was completed and could hold a meeting at the time.
Let's see. Graduated Lakeland College 1937 (Bachelors). Graduated Princeton Theological Seminary 1941 (Masters.) He did "trial sermons" in Payne Ohio for the ERC, 1941. According to his memorial, in 1941 July he began work with his first pastorate, and received his ordination July 29, 1941. This conflicts with TWLiL, where he started his first pastorate anywhere in 1944 in Van Wert, and stayed there until 1957.
According to TWLiL and other sources, he did a radio show in the 1940s and other side jobs not related to his pastorate all through the 1940s and 1950s. In 1952/1953, he encountered/plagiarized Leonard's class and Stiles' book, and peddled both as his own work. vpw's overseas tour was supposedly 1955-1956. In 1957. supposedly, he returned to Van Wert, and cut all ties with the ERC.
In 1957, the ERC as a body merged with the Congregational Christian Churches to form the United Church of Christ.
I don't think it's a coincidence that this was the time vpw jumped ship. The church was going to undergo changes, he'd already sponged some long trip from SOMEBODY, and he had a class and book to sell. He tried to keep his congregation, and tried to move things permanently to the farm.
Strictly speaking, I've never seen an ordination certificate. I think he got SOMETHING, but probably used the easiest path to get it. He found a pretext to be called "Dr", so getting "Reverend" would have been easier. Heck, we can get that now easily enough if we don't sweat the source.
I think that it was true that vpw preached/ did sermons, usually ripping something off of someone else's work. That's been his M.O. all along. So, I think he applied based on his paperwork, showed up, and did the "trial sermons". I think they took him on as a probationary pastor, then made it permanent some time later. I think his story about teaching for a month on tithing was complete fiction- since it would have interfered with getting placed as a permanent pastor. He didn't spend the work to get a pastorate just to have to start all over. He was smart enough not to rock the boat when he could be replaced so quickly and easily. Later, it was easy to lie about that with no consequences, and we got all the versions of the story about how he rocked the boat the first month and fixated on tithing.
It makes sense, and matches the evidence.
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OldSkool
That rocking the boat element of his fake persona is used to draw parallels to wierwille and Martin Luther and other big names in Christendom. Also ties back to the idea that our father in the word took on the religous establishment....breaking off from the churches oversight and then drawing school of Tyrannus comparisons from Acts.
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