Sorry. There is no reasoning . . . I just don't like him. Have you seen his forehead? Wanting to be an athlete of da spurt. Didn't make the team it seems. Showed us the path . . . narrow is the way.**********
Sorry. There is no reasoning . . . I just don't like him. Have you seen his forehead? Wanting to be an athlete of da spurt. Didn't make the team it seems. Showed us the path . . . narrow is the way.**********
Okay, I understand you don't like him. Let's try this. What's the connection with your wikipedia link?
Well, the YouTube video obviously connects with the Wikipedia link. The movie line in the first post.
Do you remember LCM's Both Guns Blazing? About stoning Stephan was it?
He's kinda fading into the Elven realm instead.
Honestly, I have no problem with you ranting about Loy. He's certainly not a protagonist around here. But I don't see your connection of stories about that traitor as being at all related to the About Twi forum.
Honestly, I have no problem with you ranting about Loy. He's certainly not a protagonist around here. But I don't see your connection of stories about that traitor as being at all related to the About Twi forum.
How did you feel when it changed? From a MOG format to the new, hidden WOG puppet show format? Or how would it feel? Does the psychology of the wayfer change?
How did you feel when it changed? From a MOG format to the new, hidden WOG puppet show format? Or how would it feel? Does the psychology of the wayfer change?
I was long gone by then. 1986. 35 years. I have no direct, first hand knowledge of how things changed.
Perhaps it would be good for you, since you put this thread in the About the Way forum, to connect the dots for readers.
lcm was one of vpw's victims, also. Think about it. lcm was this very average jock in college, with some connections to other Christians on campus. vpw was sold to him as the greatest thing since sliced bread. lcm bought it hook, line and sinker. lcm at graduation went straight from college into full-time twi, thus ensuring he NEVER had the experiences most people have of actually WORKING, paying rent, paying taxes, etc. He was groomed to do things in twi, and to imitate vpw all the time, convinced vpw actually had a connection to God Almighty. When it came time for vpw's successor, vpw made sure it was lcm because lcm never questioned vpw no matter what. (vpw wanted to make sure he always had his successor in his pocket.) Imagine vpw's surprise when lcm thought he had Papal Infallibility once he ascended twi's throne. He thought vpw had had a special connection to God- which HE now had as twi's Grand Poobah.
All the draconian measures lcm took were because of various delusions vpw placed on him- a few of them accidentally. Worse, he was also the front-man (Read that "figurehead") when Donna and Rosalie wanted to do things and let him get the credit/ take the blame. When he got caught, they threw him under the bus, made it out as if they had NO IDEA he ever did wrong (even when they ARRANGED IT), and sent him away. In every other case, when a husband was kicked out of twi, the wife was kicked out as well. Donna remained comfortably ensconced at HQ because she and Rosalie made all the decisions and she wasn't going to kick herself out no matter how much of a double-standard that was.
To this very day, I'm sure he has NO IDEA how badly he was played by all 3 people.
Like it or not, he knew what he was doing when he assaulted women. When he messed with other men's wives. Even the most thick among us know that messing around with other people's spouses isn't a good look (as it were).
His incandescent, vitriolic rants and rages were beyond imagining. Lunchtime "sharings" could last 1.5 hrs and he raged against everyone and everything. Very scary. (For you older people here, be glad you didn't endure them.) He was manipulative, sweet one moment and foulmouthed the next (perhaps learned from VPW, but he certainly "made that his own.") I had never sworn before, but came out of TWI with a marked ability to use language that most people find unacceptable (still working on getting rid of that). Corps Nights were more ranting and raving and foulmouthedness, with lurid descriptions of (in particular) alleged homosexual act.
On 8/21/2021 at 12:53 AM, Bolshevik said:
In my mind L. Craig Martindale is The Way International.
I have to agree with Bolshy One on this. I never knew VPW, had recently died before I got involved. What I'd seen of him in the PFAL videos wasn't impressive, and I was aware of numerous errors he made. But it was still, despite errors, holding out the bible in more depth than I'd encountered before.
What I knew of TWI was this thick, ugly, man who thought he was God's gift to the world. The SNS tapes, to begin with, were okay. I went in rez and met him and his "teachings" in person. I am amazed, now, that I stayed around at all. But I never saw that side before I went in rez. And it had cost me a lot in non-monetary terms, to go in rez. Yeah, he taught things. Mostly, what Christian service is not.
I can agree with WW that LCM is a victim too: sought out and groomed by VPW, who by his behaviour demonstrated "what it was not." How to be a bad leader, how to bully and scare people. There must have been that within LCM to enable that to develop to the level it did: perhaps the college jock desire for adulation.
Wherever he is in life now, I hope he's repented of his nastiness, his behaviour to others, and has learned to lie peaceably and politely with other people. Has he learned humility? Service? Integrity? He has devastated many lives (mine included). An open apology to all those he hurt, males and females, would be nice, but I'm not holding my breath for that. I forgive him and don 't wish him any ill - but I don't forget what he has done to so many.
"Like it or not, he knew what he was doing when he assaulted women. When he messed with other men's wives. Even the most thick among us know that messing around with other people's spouses isn't a good look (as it were). "
Yes, but this isn't a matter of how thick lcm was. When he was at university, he had no trouble recognizing that. This one goes back to vpw again. vpw specifically went out of his way to teach lcm that infidelity was fine if he could get away with it. He taught him his usual bs excuses, and even told him that he wouldn't make much of a leader until he got over his resistance to cheating on his wife. ("Loosening up in this category" was how he phrased it.) So, yes, fresh out of university, lcm knew that. After vpw was done indoctrinating him, he was ok when he assaulted women, and messed with other men's wives. I'm sure that-at that point- he no longer recognized that as obviously wrong.
There's an old story. Someone asked some tribal elder what a conscience was. He said it was a 3-cornered thing in here (he signalled to his chest). When he did wrong, it spun, and the corners hurt him. But if he KEPT doing wrong, then the corners would wear down and it wouldn't hurt any more.
lcm ONCE knew right from wrong. After vpw was done with him, he often confused one for the other and thought right was wrong and vice versa. I don't know if he's seeing the same reality as the rest of us even to this day. I hope he is, for his own sake.
lcm was one of vpw's victims, also. Think about it.
. . .
My limited understanding of VPW and psychology indicate VPW was a Cluster B personality type. Meaning he likely suffered significant emotional/psychological trauma as an infant or toddler. He was Victim #1.
Lacking the ability now to form a stable sense of self they (cluster Bs) outsource this problem to others. They can be copycats . . . like toddlers copy others to learn . . . VPW fancied himself a minister so he copied others . . . he plagiarized . . . and thought it not robbery because that's what children do.
Infants and children require that the adults adapt their lives to the infant's care. They cry and make demands - or act cute. That's all they can do for the time being. VPW, stuck in that state of schizoid core identity and in the form of an authority figure was a singularity that naturally induced the cult structure around HIM.
VPW's latent, instinctive behavior conditioned others around him like infants condition their parents to respond. LCM was caught up as many were as a young adult to care for Baby Victor.
I am still inclined to throw uneaten food at LCM though.
Edited by Bolshevik past tense - present tense - time is relative
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lcm was one of vpw's victims, also. Think about it. lcm was this very average jock in college, with some connections to other Christians on campus. vpw was sold to him as the greatest thing since s
Bolshevik
I can remember back in the 90s being yelled at "You're speaking in tongues in your head while I'm talking to you!" by non-wayfers. The opposite of what The Way encourages. How does that filt
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Twinky
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephialtes_of_Trachis
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Rocky
Please explain your reasoning.
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Bolshevik
Sorry. There is no reasoning . . . I just don't like him. Have you seen his forehead? Wanting to be an athlete of da spurt. Didn't make the team it seems. Showed us the path . . . narrow is the way.**********
Edited by Bolsheviktoning it down
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Rocky
Okay, I understand you don't like him. Let's try this. What's the connection with your wikipedia link?
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Bolshevik
Well, the YouTube video obviously connects with the Wikipedia link. The movie line in the first post.
Do you remember LCM's Both Guns Blazing? About stoning Stephan was it?
He's kinda fading into the Elven realm instead.
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Bolshevik
One little lawsuit . . . and he just ran away.
The identity of the wayfer is in the MOG . . . you heard and asked the question afterwards . . . when's he coming back? Did he die?
Let not The Ministry be blamed . . . can a wayfer handle a corporation over a person? Legally same thing, right?
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OldSkool
He got sidelined by Donna and Rosie ... He wanted to stay but the lawyers weren't having that
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Bolshevik
Aw! See they were two by two - he forgot put his mind on the turd that day - he forgot the *cough* blocking scheme
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Rocky
Honestly, I have no problem with you ranting about Loy. He's certainly not a protagonist around here. But I don't see your connection of stories about that traitor as being at all related to the About Twi forum.
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Bolshevik
How did you feel when it changed? From a MOG format to the new, hidden WOG puppet show format? Or how would it feel? Does the psychology of the wayfer change?
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Rocky
I was long gone by then. 1986. 35 years. I have no direct, first hand knowledge of how things changed.
Perhaps it would be good for you, since you put this thread in the About the Way forum, to connect the dots for readers.
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Bolshevik
In my mind L. Craig Martindale is The Way International. That's why I chose this forum.
I don't know how not to see him as the centerpiece. Understanding VPW is to help understand LCM.
If he belongs in a different forum fine.
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Rocky
It seems the only thing this thread has to do with TWI is your "I don't like him."
Is there more that I'm not seeing?
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Bolshevik
Hey LCM!
Remember that time everyone started talking about you on the internet?
Then non-wayfers were able to print stuff off and target children?
When was that? The 90s maybe?
Jerk.
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Bolshevik
This website is your fault LCM.
You fathead.
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WordWolf
lcm was one of vpw's victims, also. Think about it. lcm was this very average jock in college, with some connections to other Christians on campus. vpw was sold to him as the greatest thing since sliced bread. lcm bought it hook, line and sinker. lcm at graduation went straight from college into full-time twi, thus ensuring he NEVER had the experiences most people have of actually WORKING, paying rent, paying taxes, etc. He was groomed to do things in twi, and to imitate vpw all the time, convinced vpw actually had a connection to God Almighty. When it came time for vpw's successor, vpw made sure it was lcm because lcm never questioned vpw no matter what. (vpw wanted to make sure he always had his successor in his pocket.) Imagine vpw's surprise when lcm thought he had Papal Infallibility once he ascended twi's throne. He thought vpw had had a special connection to God- which HE now had as twi's Grand Poobah.
All the draconian measures lcm took were because of various delusions vpw placed on him- a few of them accidentally. Worse, he was also the front-man (Read that "figurehead") when Donna and Rosalie wanted to do things and let him get the credit/ take the blame. When he got caught, they threw him under the bus, made it out as if they had NO IDEA he ever did wrong (even when they ARRANGED IT), and sent him away. In every other case, when a husband was kicked out of twi, the wife was kicked out as well. Donna remained comfortably ensconced at HQ because she and Rosalie made all the decisions and she wasn't going to kick herself out no matter how much of a double-standard that was.
To this very day, I'm sure he has NO IDEA how badly he was played by all 3 people.
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Twinky
Like it or not, he knew what he was doing when he assaulted women. When he messed with other men's wives. Even the most thick among us know that messing around with other people's spouses isn't a good look (as it were).
His incandescent, vitriolic rants and rages were beyond imagining. Lunchtime "sharings" could last 1.5 hrs and he raged against everyone and everything. Very scary. (For you older people here, be glad you didn't endure them.) He was manipulative, sweet one moment and foulmouthed the next (perhaps learned from VPW, but he certainly "made that his own.") I had never sworn before, but came out of TWI with a marked ability to use language that most people find unacceptable (still working on getting rid of that). Corps Nights were more ranting and raving and foulmouthedness, with lurid descriptions of (in particular) alleged homosexual act.
I have to agree with Bolshy One on this. I never knew VPW, had recently died before I got involved. What I'd seen of him in the PFAL videos wasn't impressive, and I was aware of numerous errors he made. But it was still, despite errors, holding out the bible in more depth than I'd encountered before.
What I knew of TWI was this thick, ugly, man who thought he was God's gift to the world. The SNS tapes, to begin with, were okay. I went in rez and met him and his "teachings" in person. I am amazed, now, that I stayed around at all. But I never saw that side before I went in rez. And it had cost me a lot in non-monetary terms, to go in rez. Yeah, he taught things. Mostly, what Christian service is not.
I can agree with WW that LCM is a victim too: sought out and groomed by VPW, who by his behaviour demonstrated "what it was not." How to be a bad leader, how to bully and scare people. There must have been that within LCM to enable that to develop to the level it did: perhaps the college jock desire for adulation.
Wherever he is in life now, I hope he's repented of his nastiness, his behaviour to others, and has learned to lie peaceably and politely with other people. Has he learned humility? Service? Integrity? He has devastated many lives (mine included). An open apology to all those he hurt, males and females, would be nice, but I'm not holding my breath for that. I forgive him and don 't wish him any ill - but I don't forget what he has done to so many.
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Rocky
I wouldn't bet on that having happened yet.
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Rocky
I too am confident such is the case.
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WordWolf
"Like it or not, he knew what he was doing when he assaulted women. When he messed with other men's wives. Even the most thick among us know that messing around with other people's spouses isn't a good look (as it were). "
Yes, but this isn't a matter of how thick lcm was. When he was at university, he had no trouble recognizing that. This one goes back to vpw again. vpw specifically went out of his way to teach lcm that infidelity was fine if he could get away with it. He taught him his usual bs excuses, and even told him that he wouldn't make much of a leader until he got over his resistance to cheating on his wife. ("Loosening up in this category" was how he phrased it.) So, yes, fresh out of university, lcm knew that. After vpw was done indoctrinating him, he was ok when he assaulted women, and messed with other men's wives. I'm sure that-at that point- he no longer recognized that as obviously wrong.
There's an old story. Someone asked some tribal elder what a conscience was. He said it was a 3-cornered thing in here (he signalled to his chest). When he did wrong, it spun, and the corners hurt him. But if he KEPT doing wrong, then the corners would wear down and it wouldn't hurt any more.
lcm ONCE knew right from wrong. After vpw was done with him, he often confused one for the other and thought right was wrong and vice versa. I don't know if he's seeing the same reality as the rest of us even to this day. I hope he is, for his own sake.
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Bolshevik
My limited understanding of VPW and psychology indicate VPW was a Cluster B personality type. Meaning he likely suffered significant emotional/psychological trauma as an infant or toddler. He was Victim #1.
Lacking the ability now to form a stable sense of self they (cluster Bs) outsource this problem to others. They can be copycats . . . like toddlers copy others to learn . . . VPW fancied himself a minister so he copied others . . . he plagiarized . . . and thought it not robbery because that's what children do.
Infants and children require that the adults adapt their lives to the infant's care. They cry and make demands - or act cute. That's all they can do for the time being. VPW, stuck in that state of schizoid core identity and in the form of an authority figure was a singularity that naturally induced the cult structure around HIM.
VPW's latent, instinctive behavior conditioned others around him like infants condition their parents to respond. LCM was caught up as many were as a young adult to care for Baby Victor.
I am still inclined to throw uneaten food at LCM though.
Edited by Bolshevikpast tense - present tense - time is relative
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Bolshevik
I can understand VPW passing the mantle to a doofus because . . . self destruction would be in his nature. I don't think legacy was in his sites.
You are suggesting the Oklahoma Overlord was a puppet from Day 1?
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Bolshevik
Found old photo from the Green Room LCM . . .
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