Okay, you guys have considered whether an atheist can truly become a (Christian) believer, or vice versa.
Now what of the (let's say) atheist, who converts to Christianity, then reconverts to (let's say) Islam. Or Buddhism. Or some Indian religion requiring worship of multiple gods. Has that person changed his/her mind? Had a true conversion experience? Still exploring, but never been truly convinced of anything?
Geez Twinky you don’t have to talk about me in code - I’m an adult - I can take it
Okay, you guys have considered whether an atheist can truly become a (Christian) believer, or vice versa.
Now what of the (let's say) atheist, who converts to Christianity, then reconverts to (let's say) Islam. Or Buddhism. Or some Indian religion requiring worship of multiple gods. Has that person changed his/her mind? Had a true conversion experience? Still exploring, but never been truly convinced of anything?
It depends
I'd guess there are some people who flit from one belief or disbelief system with out any real grounding, just sampling and exploring. But I wouldn't dismiss the possibility of someone having a series of sincerely held beliefs.
I think this may be a hard concept for an ex-Wayfer to grasp, simply because it was droned into us that salvation is supposedly permanent..."You're going to Heaven and all Hell can't stop you."
I remember talking about how non-Trinitarians could learn from Trinitarians about the reverence that is Biblically due to Jesus Christ, while Trinitarians could learn from non-Trinitarians about Christ's obedience, commitment and sacrifice. Each side holds a position that can enhance the other side's appreciation for the truth!
I thought about that reading T-Bone's post, and I am so glad that my perspective (not taking credit for it, just that I agree with it) can help you appreciate the quality and value of life in the now, or as you called it, the urgency to appreciate life right now.
I guess on the flip side of that, while I can't say to my kid "in heaven you won't have autism," I can "think big" in terms of finding something, some hope beyond hope that there's a solution that we can have here and now. The analogy doesn't quite hold up, but the heart does. Believers see a future free of heartache and pain. I see the urgency of bringing it to pass sooner rather than later.
Love it.
And sometimes that desire to see things from a perspective you do not share is the first step to changing your mind, your mindset, your worldview... your thought.
I guess on the flip side of that, while I can't say to my kid "in heaven you won't have autism," I can "think big" in terms of finding something, some hope beyond hope that there's a solution that we can have here and now. The analogy doesn't quite hold up, but the heart does. Believers see a future free of heartache and pain. I see the urgency of bringing it to pass sooner rather than later.
Maybe in heaven - we'll all be autistic. Maybe "neuro-typicals" are in fact the oddities in the long scheme of things? Maybe that's why neuro-typicals make such a mess of things, are disobedient, and don't follow clear rules; whereas autistic people take things more literally and don't argue with themselves and their imaginations all the time?
Yes, Bolshevik. That is correct. But there's a subtlety to it.
There are those who believe a conversion experience is only possible in one direction. "Oh sure, you can go from atheist to Christian, because that's how it's supposed to work. But to go from Christian to atheist? No way! I have no choice but to question the genuineness of your Christian faith. No true Christian could ever turn away."
That's nonsense. More accurately, it's a defense mechanism to protect people of faith from even having to consider whether the departing Christian might have a point. Easier to shrug off the loss of a not-true-believer than it is to weigh the argument he presents and put your own faith to the test. Why, "the test" itself is anathema!
And yes, it goes the same in reverse: Some atheists can't stand the idea that a real atheist might be persuaded that there is a God, that His name is Yahweh, and that He was incarnated/represented/expressed/whatevered as the man Christ Jesus. Not a real atheist.
Except, of COURSE a real atheist could come to that conclusion.
The question in each case is HOW?
And let me add, there are WAY too many Christians who like to say "I was an atheist too" when, in fact, they were not. You can hear it in their testimonies. They'll say things like "I hated God because He allowed such and such to happen." That's not how atheists would talk about it. We don't hate God anymore than Christians hate Odin. But "I was an atheist" makes a much better testimony than "I always believed in God because my parents told me He was real but they didn't teach me how to worship Him the way THIS COOL CHURCH GROUP did!"
I can tell you that my earliest memories relate to the Kingdom Hall and the conviction that there is a God, Jesus is His Son and that the Bible is His Word. To me, until who knows when, the ONLY question about God was not whether He existed, but who got the Bible right! Had I started my quest with the mental ability to even consider whether this God story was fundamentally true, it might have changed my life. I thought critical thinking meant comparing what people said about God to what God said about Himself. It never even occurred to me that "what God said about Himself" was the mother of all presuppositions resulting in reasoning that circled and circled and circled until the tank refilled.
But none of that means an atheist can't convert to Christianity, or vice versa. Of course they can. It happens all the time.
Sometimes the change is precipitated by a "significant emotional event."
Sometimes the change precipitates significant emotional events.
I humbly submit that significant emotional events are too ubiquitous to identify as either a cause or effect of such a change, and it's probably more accurate to say the relationships between changes and events is symbiotic.
Then again, Rocky may be completely, 100 percent right without equivocation. After all, he did allow for exceptions, and our only disagreement is over how prevalent those exceptions are.
Kinda shooting fish in a barrell. Yes you can go back and forth. Many are pressured into it by coercion or violence. The experience is painful for a reason. Why does it hurt?
Something is happening in those "conversions" . . . and I think it happens with people who have never heard of atheism or Jesus. Because it is real and (god) stories are there to describe it.
Casting off God doesn't negate the reason the stories were written.
Maybe religion is just a way of connecting people. In our modern world, we don't need each other as much as we used to. Atheism is logical.
I remember talking about how non-Trinitarians could learn from Trinitarians about the reverence that is Biblically due to Jesus Christ, while Trinitarians could learn from non-Trinitarians about Christ's obedience, commitment and sacrifice. Each side holds a position that can enhance the other side's appreciation for the truth!
I thought about that reading T-Bone's post, and I am so glad that my perspective (not taking credit for it, just that I agree with it) can help you appreciate the quality and value of life in the now, or as you called it, the urgency to appreciate life right now.
I guess on the flip side of that, while I can't say to my kid "in heaven you won't have autism," I can "think big" in terms of finding something, some hope beyond hope that there's a solution that we can have here and now. The analogy doesn't quite hold up, but the heart does. Believers see a future free of heartache and pain. I see the urgency of bringing it to pass sooner rather than later.
Love it.
And sometimes that desire to see things from a perspective you do not share is the first step to changing your mind, your mindset, your worldview... your thought.
oh you can take a lot of credit my friend – you are definitely in the small handful of articulate, thoughtful and thought-provoking Grease Spotters that have had a huge influence on me...I appreciate your patience and “tutelage” ! Another person in that handful that I truly miss is Garth P.
Hey on the flip side of the flip side – I believe I'm more in tune with your sentiment than I used to be. I think there's some serious drawbacks to a mentality that has a firm grip on a heavenly hope of resolution and perfection. Another stumbling block is the tendency to put on the back burner any big problem that can't be fixed pretty quick with a miracle (yeah, like that's gonna happen) or “managed” by “operating some biblical principle” (yeah, like “the law of believing”). ..oh the utter lack of practicality with the TWI-mindset.
Our daughter is so fortunate that we are not in The Way anymore. In TWI, people with special needs have such an inferior status....One corps night craig made a comment about the Special Olympics referring to the athletes as freaks of nature... our daughter was born just a couple of years after we left TWI....so I still had a lot of the TWI-mindset in me...you don't know how many times craig's words came back to haunt me.... ...not to worry – it took a while - but I've inspected, dissected, pulverized and rejected a lot of those thought patterns....TWI folks won't come right out and say anything – but I've heard enough innuendos from some TWI-folks that know our family that reveals an utter lack of empathy and compassion in the guise of having more important things to do, like moving “The Word”...talk about can a person truly change their mind – how about TWI folks changing their minds on how they look at people with special needs. Here's a tip – strike out the last three words – as follows “changing their minds on how they look at people with special needs.” They are people !!!! come to think of it – TWI-folks need to change their minds on how they look at people in general – but that's another story.
I heard something at a down syndrome conference one time that took me a long time to process and understand. One of the gifts that people with special needs give is that they draw out the best in us. I've learned more about genuine love and to enjoy the simple pleasures of life from my daughter than in the 12 years of TWI...can an ex-TWI-believer change his mind – you betcha !!!!
Our daughter is so fortunate that we are not in The Way anymore. In TWI, people with special needs have such an inferior status....One corps night craig made a comment about the Special Olympics referring to the athletes as freaks of nature..
Your daughter is a freak of nature to precisely the same extent that all of us are. And just like the rest of us, she is fearfully and wonderfully made. Made a little differently, perhaps, but still wonderfully. She's probably kind, loving, compassionate, and is clearly able to give joy to you, Tonto and many others.
Which is unlike that aberration of nature, LCM, whose ability to be all those things is sadly impaired, and who left a trail of destruction rippling through many people's lives.
T-Bone, have you read works by Henri Nouwen, in particular "Adam: Life of the Beloved"?
Your daughter is a freak of nature to precisely the same extent that all of us are. And just like the rest of us, she is fearfully and wonderfully made. Made a little differently, perhaps, but still wonderfully. She's probably kind, loving, compassionate, and is clearly able to give joy to you, Tonto and many others.
Which is unlike that aberration of nature, LCM, whose ability to be all those things is sadly impaired, and who left a trail of destruction rippling through many people's lives.
T-Bone, have you read works by Henri Nouwen, in particular "Adam: Life of the Beloved"?
thanks Twinky
I never heard of Nouwen until you mentioned him...I looked him up on the internet and like what I'm reading about him...I put his book Adam: God's Beloved on my wish list...thanks again!
I've felt inclined, at several points during this thread, to ask: "What do you think God is?" (note, that's a What, not a Who).
It's not really the subject of this thread, so if you have any thoughts, just hold them for the time being.
Oh, I think it's connected. It's been my observation that people who "believe in" God have various mind pictures of what God is and what God does that may have nothing to do with the doctrinal positions of the church that they belong to, or Christianity in general. One of my sisters and I were having a discussion a few years ago about how she was mad at God because of several things that had gone wrong in her life, things that, in my opinion, were the direct result of her own choices (in particular, she lost custody of her children to her ex-husband because she was in prison). She just couldn't understand why "God allowed it to happen". My response to her was "maybe God isn't what you think he is". Not as a suggestion that God didn't exist, but that she was viewing God, not as he was, or even how he was described in the Bible, but as a creation of her own mind.
Oh, I think it's connected. It's been my observation that people who "believe in" God have various mind pictures of what God is and what God does that may have nothing to do with the doctrinal positions of the church that they belong to, or Christianity in general. One of my sisters and I were having a discussion a few years ago about how she was mad at God because of several things that had gone wrong in her life, things that, in my opinion, were the direct result of her own choices (in particular, she lost custody of her children to her ex-husband because she was in prison). She just couldn't understand why "God allowed it to happen". My response to her was "maybe God isn't what you think he is". Not as a suggestion that God didn't exist, but that she was viewing God, not as he was, or even how he was described in the Bible, but as a creation of her own mind.
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T-Bone
oh you can take a lot of credit my friend – you are definitely in the small handful of articulate, thoughtful and thought-provoking Grease Spotters that have had a huge influence on me...I appreciate
Raf
Ok, first, we're looking at two things here that are very different. One: Can a person with a deeply held belief change his mind about it? Second: What would be the consequence of such a cha
Raf
Bolshevik mentioned something about how atheists value life. I try not to quantify such things, but economics 101 tells you scarcity increases value. No atheist ever flew a plane into a building
waysider
Is that all there is?
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T-Bone
Geez Twinky you don’t have to talk about me in code - I’m an adult - I can take it
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Oakspear
It depends
I'd guess there are some people who flit from one belief or disbelief system with out any real grounding, just sampling and exploring. But I wouldn't dismiss the possibility of someone having a series of sincerely held beliefs.
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waysider
I think this may be a hard concept for an ex-Wayfer to grasp, simply because it was droned into us that salvation is supposedly permanent..."You're going to Heaven and all Hell can't stop you."
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Raf
I really love the direction this thread went in.
I remember talking about how non-Trinitarians could learn from Trinitarians about the reverence that is Biblically due to Jesus Christ, while Trinitarians could learn from non-Trinitarians about Christ's obedience, commitment and sacrifice. Each side holds a position that can enhance the other side's appreciation for the truth!
I thought about that reading T-Bone's post, and I am so glad that my perspective (not taking credit for it, just that I agree with it) can help you appreciate the quality and value of life in the now, or as you called it, the urgency to appreciate life right now.
I guess on the flip side of that, while I can't say to my kid "in heaven you won't have autism," I can "think big" in terms of finding something, some hope beyond hope that there's a solution that we can have here and now. The analogy doesn't quite hold up, but the heart does. Believers see a future free of heartache and pain. I see the urgency of bringing it to pass sooner rather than later.
Love it.
And sometimes that desire to see things from a perspective you do not share is the first step to changing your mind, your mindset, your worldview... your thought.
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Twinky
Maybe in heaven - we'll all be autistic. Maybe "neuro-typicals" are in fact the oddities in the long scheme of things? Maybe that's why neuro-typicals make such a mess of things, are disobedient, and don't follow clear rules; whereas autistic people take things more literally and don't argue with themselves and their imaginations all the time?
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Twinky
I've felt inclined, at several points during this thread, to ask: "What do you think God is?" (note, that's a What, not a Who).
It's not really the subject of this thread, so if you have any thoughts, just hold them for the time being.
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Rocky
Hmmm... please expound on that thought.
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Bolshevik
Kinda shooting fish in a barrell. Yes you can go back and forth. Many are pressured into it by coercion or violence. The experience is painful for a reason. Why does it hurt?
Something is happening in those "conversions" . . . and I think it happens with people who have never heard of atheism or Jesus. Because it is real and (god) stories are there to describe it.
Casting off God doesn't negate the reason the stories were written.
Maybe religion is just a way of connecting people. In our modern world, we don't need each other as much as we used to. Atheism is logical.
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T-Bone
oh you can take a lot of credit my friend – you are definitely in the small handful of articulate, thoughtful and thought-provoking Grease Spotters that have had a huge influence on me...I appreciate your patience and “tutelage” ! Another person in that handful that I truly miss is Garth P.
Hey on the flip side of the flip side – I believe I'm more in tune with your sentiment than I used to be. I think there's some serious drawbacks to a mentality that has a firm grip on a heavenly hope of resolution and perfection. Another stumbling block is the tendency to put on the back burner any big problem that can't be fixed pretty quick with a miracle (yeah, like that's gonna happen) or “managed” by “operating some biblical principle” (yeah, like “the law of believing”). ..oh the utter lack of practicality with the TWI-mindset.
Our daughter is so fortunate that we are not in The Way anymore. In TWI, people with special needs have such an inferior status....One corps night craig made a comment about the Special Olympics referring to the athletes as freaks of nature... our daughter was born just a couple of years after we left TWI....so I still had a lot of the TWI-mindset in me...you don't know how many times craig's words came back to haunt me.... ...not to worry – it took a while - but I've inspected, dissected, pulverized and rejected a lot of those thought patterns....TWI folks won't come right out and say anything – but I've heard enough innuendos from some TWI-folks that know our family that reveals an utter lack of empathy and compassion in the guise of having more important things to do, like moving “The Word”...talk about can a person truly change their mind – how about TWI folks changing their minds on how they look at people with special needs. Here's a tip – strike out the last three words – as follows “changing their minds on how they look at people
with special needs.” They are people !!!! come to think of it – TWI-folks need to change their minds on how they look at people in general – but that's another story.I heard something at a down syndrome conference one time that took me a long time to process and understand. One of the gifts that people with special needs give is that they draw out the best in us. I've learned more about genuine love and to enjoy the simple pleasures of life from my daughter than in the 12 years of TWI...can an ex-TWI-believer change his mind – you betcha !!!!
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Twinky
Your daughter is a freak of nature to precisely the same extent that all of us are. And just like the rest of us, she is fearfully and wonderfully made. Made a little differently, perhaps, but still wonderfully. She's probably kind, loving, compassionate, and is clearly able to give joy to you, Tonto and many others.
Which is unlike that aberration of nature, LCM, whose ability to be all those things is sadly impaired, and who left a trail of destruction rippling through many people's lives.
T-Bone, have you read works by Henri Nouwen, in particular "Adam: Life of the Beloved"?
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Bolshevik
Facebook and YouTube will change your mind for you. The all powerful algorithm helps this. Billions of minds are connected to their will.
You don't even need to be aware you change your mind. Do you?
VPW used trappings of Christianity for his game.
Here we are, discussing religion vs atheism . . But how does it relate to VPW more than his red herring?
He needed people . . . People felt they needed him.
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T-Bone
thanks Twinky
I never heard of Nouwen until you mentioned him...I looked him up on the internet and like what I'm reading about him...I put his book Adam: God's Beloved on my wish list...thanks again!
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Oakspear
Oh, I think it's connected. It's been my observation that people who "believe in" God have various mind pictures of what God is and what God does that may have nothing to do with the doctrinal positions of the church that they belong to, or Christianity in general. One of my sisters and I were having a discussion a few years ago about how she was mad at God because of several things that had gone wrong in her life, things that, in my opinion, were the direct result of her own choices (in particular, she lost custody of her children to her ex-husband because she was in prison). She just couldn't understand why "God allowed it to happen". My response to her was "maybe God isn't what you think he is". Not as a suggestion that God didn't exist, but that she was viewing God, not as he was, or even how he was described in the Bible, but as a creation of her own mind.
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Twinky
D'yall want me to start a thread on this?
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Raf
Good idea. Not that I don't love the topic, but yeah, it is different
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Bolshevik
Is God/gods a personal image or a shared one?
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T-Bone
Twinky I'm surprised at you. Is it proper for Brits to stray from the Queen's English and resort to using Southern American English? I trow not !
My apologies to all on this thread – I can't help it if I'm a cheeky monkey.
Edited by T-Boneedited by Sir Cheeky Monkey
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Raf
Sounds like the thread's run its course and is now officially about anything.
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Bolshevik
Maybe the thread changed its mind.
You're opening posts suggests it's completely subjective. But I don't know.
Is changing your mind a logical, cognitive decision?
Is it an emotional, cognitive decision?
Is it unconscious/subconscious? How easily is it changed by an outside force?
What is the decision being made anyway? People can say anything.
It is always traumatic? Is it never? Why?
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Rocky
stream of consciousness
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Bolshevik
I hated every minute of wayferdom but it is still part of my identity.
The Courts of Ohio have recently reminded me that it is Hotel California.
It is a label given by others.
I wish I were told I was never really a wayfer. How does one escape?
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waysider
Minus the warm smell of colitas, rising up through the air.
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Bolshevik
Heh heh
What good is belief without power?
You can change your mind all day, who cares?
VPW called it Power For Abundant Living.
THEN he brought in the self flagellation of The LAW of Believing
Almost genius
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