Bolshevik mentioned something about how atheists value life. I try not to quantify such things, but economics 101 tells you scarcity increases value.
No atheist ever flew a plane into a building with the expectation of a reward in paradise.
But that works both ways. The flip side is, unless an atheist has an independent reason to believe a "sin" is wrong, there's nothing to stop him from committing it. Good news, in most cases there are plenty of independent reasons to believe a sin is wrong. Like murder. Rape. Stealing. Slavery. Executing people for shtupping the wrong person with consent. You know, things we can all agree is wrong.
You know what sins are stupid?
Sabbath breaking. TF?
Shellfish.
Bacon.
Turning around because the city you've called home is being consumed by literal fire and brimstone and, I don't know, you're maybe worried about your house or your pets or an actual friend.
Cooking a baby goat in its mother's milk.
Not saying Yahweh unless you mean it.
Those are stupid sins.
My point?
I'm sure it's around here somewhere.
Oh, yeah: I think "who values life more?" would be an interesting thread. But even if I have made statements to the contrary, I can honestly say they are presumptuous. I do not believe there is a simple answer to that question.
Mourning is different when you're an atheist. Goodbye really is goodbye. I think I mourn the deaths of children more painfully than believers do. You believe they'll get the fulness of life they deserved. I don't. You think they'll awaken in perfect bodies that will never know pain. I don't.
Does that mean I place a greater value on their lives? No. But I put a greater price tag on their deaths.
I disagree. A change in VALUES and beliefs can be a "seismic" event. Changing a thought, not necessarily.
At minimum, a change in values and beliefs would, imo, require changing more than a thought. Rather, changing how one interprets or gives meaning to a series of thoughts.
I disagree. A change in VALUES and beliefs can be a "seismic" event. Changing a thought, not necessarily.
At minimum, a change in values and beliefs would, imo, require changing more than a thought. Rather, changing how one interprets or gives meaning to a series of thoughts.
I don't see this as quibbling.
This is trying to accurately relate subjective experience. I gave a simple flow chart as I understood how events relate to experience. (Event --> thought --> emotion). There's certainly more to grasp with relating beliefs and meaning and thoughts.
Can a true believer truly change his mind and truly become an unbeliever.
Irrefutably, the answer is yes. But a lot of folks think it's more complicated than that. I am automatically suspicious of anyone who says "I was an atheist, but the evidence changed my mind." Reason being, a lot of believers like to claim they were atheist when they really weren't. They were believers all along.
But some people really were.
And some people really were Christians, baptized speaking in tongues hallelujah singing crying at the right times, praying in private not to show off genuinely Christians, only to later change their minds. I'm sure you suspect they weren't really, but no, really, we were.
So for those of us having trouble coming to grips with either change, what are your questions? How can believers and unbelievers help you understand that real change is possible, and it's not your place to deny us our journey?
22 hours ago, Bolshevik said:
I'm assuming everyone here has shifted a major worldview at least once or twice in their lifetime. Probably more.
It is my understanding events are neutral. Our interpretation of them, our beliefs about them, our thinking of them . . . then lead to emotions, or emotional trauma.
There are many ways to view prayer. Your mind either came wired or you wired it at some point to not assign meaning to prayer. You have consciously chosen that it is a practice that is not in your best interest.
You believe your view of death and mortality gives a greater appreciation, a greater experience, of life.
16 hours ago, Rocky said:
I disagree. A change in VALUES and beliefs can be a "seismic" event. Changing a thought, not necessarily.
At minimum, a change in values and beliefs would, imo, require changing more than a thought. Rather, changing how one interprets or gives meaning to a series of thoughts.
I think there may have been some confusion over defining a “true believer”; here's one definition I found:
2.What makes someone a true believer?
What marks a true believer is something that happens in the heart, because a true believer has been born again, regenerated, transformed, gone through a complete metamorphosis. And if we ask the question: what marks that transformation? Then we're getting to the reality of who is a true believer.
From: https://www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/43-70/traits-of-a-true-believer-part-1#
and here's yet a third 3.What does it mean to be a believer?
Believer (noun) one who believes; one who is persuaded of the truth or reality of some doctrine, person, or thing. Believer (noun) one who gives credit to the truth of the Scriptures, as a revelation from God; a Christian; -- in a more restricted sense, one who receives Christ as his Savior, and accepts the way of salvation unfolded in the gospel.
From: https://www.definitions.net/definition/believer#
There's more definitions on the internet – just wanted to post a few samples and say that my viewpoint has been addressing the question using definition #1.
And in light of the first definition being my reference point, I tend to look at the question “Can a true believer truly change his mind and truly become an unbeliever” in more of a physical way rather than a spiritual way (which would be more along the lines of definition #2). And in thinking of this in a physical way, I think in terms of a hardware versus software analogy of how a person functions.
Modern medicine has come a long way in understanding how our bodies work (hardware) – and they keep making incredible advances on how to help, heal and maintain our health... and furthermore it's commonly accepted that the health of the mind (software) affects the health of the body (hardware). Mind-body medicine works with practices that can improve health, such as relaxation, meditation, yoga, etc. - I recently shared on another thread how transcranial magnetic stimulation has helped my daughter manage clinical depression and relieve catatonia.
The field of psychology studies the mind - and often gets into "software issues"...Now me – I'm a hardware guy myself – if you've ever read my thread in computer questions you'll find out I'm pretty good at fixing equipment but not so good at understanding or fixing computers. Because machines, components, wiring and such are easier to troubleshoot – because you're not having to think in the abstract - Abstract thinking is the ability to think about things that are not actually present. People who think in an abstract way look at the broader significance of ideas and information rather than the concrete details. ..So as a technician I use my observation skills – for example – this pump motor doesn't work...Is the pump getting power? Is there power present at the outlet? Is there something funky about this electrical cord to the pump? A volt/ohm meter will diagnose the issue quickly...aha! There's power at the outlet. How about the electrical cord to the pump? Maybe there's either a short, open or ground on one or more of the wires of the cord... investigate...isolate...eliminate...problem solved...
but software? Aye yi yi !!!! 3 days ago, Windows 10 started acting glitchy after I just installed the latest iTunes update to backup my iPhone to my PC... I didn't have a clue! I spent over an hour on the phone with Apple support to find out how to sync and use other features and had to change a few option settings. Tech support lady told me they've gotten a lot of calls after the latest rollout...by the way, iTunes still not working 100% – why do these IT engineers constantly change layout and functionality?!?! and oh yeah, after I'm done with “fixing” iTunes, my laptop gives me an alert to run scandisk to fix errors...Did that – took 4 hours and at least Windows 10 is back to “normal”....I'm to the point I find all my computer and device problems kinda funny...the Apple tech support lady was putting me on hold a few times...then she says she's reading through some tech support notes she has on the latest update...we're dealing with the invisible here !!!!! - you can't run it through an x-ray machine and see that my computer swallowed a dog whistle or something (I don't know if that's even possible). ... ..the moral of the story.? Use tin cups and string for communication and learn to enjoy vinyl records played on a turntable... just kidding ...I mean how this ties in to this thread is that talking about beliefs and the mind gets into a very elusive and intangible subject – something we usually have to speculate about – how the mind works.
From what I’ve read online, some experts think our beliefs are somewhat like a software program always running in the background as we take in information and examine its source – checking for compatibility or conflicts with our existing beliefs. Our beliefs help form and/or modify a mental model for understanding the world, our self and others. ..As Rocky was saying “a change in values and beliefs would, imo, require changing more than a thought. Rather, changing how one interprets or gives meaning to a series of thoughts. “ The Psychology Today reference in my first post likens our beliefs to being a shortcut – a template. The parameters of the template or framework is something we use regularly...sometimes adjust or change.
My two-bit psychological imagination sees our belief system as an open architecture program. “Open architecture is a type of computer architecture or software architecture intended to make adding, upgrading, and swapping components with other computers easy”
from; Wikipedia open architecture
So however you want to look at it – if the brain (hardware) was created this way – or it just evolved this way – or however our brains came to be – for instance another option is presented in Prometheus 2012 film - a movie I thoroughly really enjoyed --- - but I was annoyed at one promo line “all your questions will be answered” - nope ! The movie triggered a ton of other questions about “the engineers” – maybe they'll get answered in the sequel...hmmmm that's how they got me hooked in PFAL ….but anyway – to clarify I love the movie Prometheus...and no longer love PFAL...
the flexibility...adaptability...creativity...exhibited in how we use our minds may indicate that even though some features and functionality is hardwired or has “default programming”, there are a lot of mysterious attributes and activities that enable us to change...adapt...grow...what's amazing is just the supposedly simple process of self-reflection – we observe and analyze ourselves – the convergence of hardware and software... “Metacognition is an awareness of one's own thought processes and an understanding of the patterns behind them.”
from: Wikipedia - metacognition
This awareness and understanding affords us options like being analytical, corrective, adaptive and even creative.
Flow chart is usually EVENT --> THOUGHT --> EMOTION
I would think BELIEF = THOUGHTS Or changing thinking different than changing belief?
Rocky, I chose not to quibble with this summary of my position. The idea is what was important here, not the word choice.
If you would like to be more precise in recognizing that changing a worldview is far more complex than a "thought," I would certainly agree with you.
But I don't need to parse that in order to make my overall point: changing your [word we're arguing about here] can BE the significant emotional event rather than BEING CAUSED/PRECIPITATED BY such an event.
I think my main point was that beliefs, worldviews, etc. can all fall under the general category of "thought" without damaging the point I was trying to make.
T-Bone, thank you.
Rocky, in the Law of Believing thread there was an implication that "truth be known" people who walk away from Christianity probably were never really believers to begin with. This thread was supposed to explore what it takes to change your mind. Your contribution has been priceless.
I was raised a Wayfer. Hated for it. I was told I was born again before I can remember, as a toddler probably. I walked away from everything I knew, people, places, and beliefs. It was traumatic. Physically shook.
I was atheist for awhile and now am *shrugs*
We are often told what we are. Is what I was saying earlier.
Our emotional reaction as I understand is based on what goes on in our heads.
Some of the idea of cognitive dissonance on this website I get confused by.
I know the feeling of being split in two and operating as two people. Because of the high pressure situation. The chaos (I still have questions about in VPW's work - the contradictions - chaos).
Getting those people to collapse into one is the goal.
Only it's not like those people are split evenly. They are on different planes of existence so to speak.
Values and beliefs are one of the tools to keep people from splitting.
Raf is describing a "conversion experience" . . . is my understanding.
Yes, Bolshevik. That is correct. But there's a subtlety to it.
There are those who believe a conversion experience is only possible in one direction. "Oh sure, you can go from atheist to Christian, because that's how it's supposed to work. But to go from Christian to atheist? No way! I have no choice but to question the genuineness of your Christian faith. No true Christian could ever turn away."
That's nonsense. More accurately, it's a defense mechanism to protect people of faith from even having to consider whether the departing Christian might have a point. Easier to shrug off the loss of a not-true-believer than it is to weigh the argument he presents and put your own faith to the test. Why, "the test" itself is anathema!
And yes, it goes the same in reverse: Some atheists can't stand the idea that a real atheist might be persuaded that there is a God, that His name is Yahweh, and that He was incarnated/represented/expressed/whatevered as the man Christ Jesus. Not a real atheist.
Except, of COURSE a real atheist could come to that conclusion.
The question in each case is HOW?
And let me add, there are WAY too many Christians who like to say "I was an atheist too" when, in fact, they were not. You can hear it in their testimonies. They'll say things like "I hated God because He allowed such and such to happen." That's not how atheists would talk about it. We don't hate God anymore than Christians hate Odin. But "I was an atheist" makes a much better testimony than "I always believed in God because my parents told me He was real but they didn't teach me how to worship Him the way THIS COOL CHURCH GROUP did!"
I can tell you that my earliest memories relate to the Kingdom Hall and the conviction that there is a God, Jesus is His Son and that the Bible is His Word. To me, until who knows when, the ONLY question about God was not whether He existed, but who got the Bible right! Had I started my quest with the mental ability to even consider whether this God story was fundamentally true, it might have changed my life. I thought critical thinking meant comparing what people said about God to what God said about Himself. It never even occurred to me that "what God said about Himself" was the mother of all presuppositions resulting in reasoning that circled and circled and circled until the tank refilled.
But none of that means an atheist can't convert to Christianity, or vice versa. Of course they can. It happens all the time.
Sometimes the change is precipitated by a "significant emotional event."
Sometimes the change precipitates significant emotional events.
I humbly submit that significant emotional events are too ubiquitous to identify as either a cause or effect of such a change, and it's probably more accurate to say the relationships between changes and events is symbiotic.
Then again, Rocky may be completely, 100 percent right without equivocation. After all, he did allow for exceptions, and our only disagreement is over how prevalent those exceptions are.
When I was a kid, I believed in Santa Claus. I don't recall if it was an epiphany or an evolutionary process, but I no longer do. Nothing anyone could ever say or do could make me believe in his existence again. Maybe there's some sort of parallel there to the discussion at hand. I don't know. All I know is change is real and it happens, sometimes even when we don't want it to.
I can tell you that my earliest memories relate to the Kingdom Hall and the conviction that there is a God, Jesus is His Son and that the Bible is His Word. To me, until who knows when, the ONLY question about God was not whether He existed, but who got the Bible right! Had I started my quest with the mental ability to even consider whether this God story was fundamentally true, it might have changed my life. I thought critical thinking meant comparing what people said about God to what God said about Himself. It never even occurred to me that "what God said about Himself" was the mother of all presuppositions resulting in reasoning that circled and circled and circled until the tank refilled.
But none of that means an atheist can't convert to Christianity, or vice versa. Of course they can. It happens all the time.
Sometimes the change is precipitated by a "significant emotional event."
Sometimes the change precipitates significant emotional events.
I humbly submit that significant emotional events are too ubiquitous to identify as either a cause or effect of such a change, and it's probably more accurate to say the relationships between changes and events is symbiotic.
Have you ever considered writing a screenplay, or even the script for a stage production to illustrate what you have described above?
This should bean easy question with an obvious answer, i.e. of course some can change a deeply held belief, but there's those who employ the "No True Scotsman" fallacy by claiming that the ex-Christian was never really a Christian, or the ex-Atheist was never actually an Atheist. To be fair, there are likely those who outwardly conformed to Christian practice, went to church, "witnessed" etc, but never really believed it all and changing their mind was just admitting that they never truly believed what they said they believed. But you can't reflexively assume that anyone who changes their mind in this manner falls into that category. I think you have to believe people when they say that they believed. And the path from belief to disbelief is going to be different for everyone. For some it might be an trauma, for others it might involve realizing the inconsistency within the Bible, for still others it might be the lack of any evidence that might support belief.
The change from Atheism to Christianity is similar. There might be people who say they're Atheists, but who are really just people who either have rejected organized religion, or simply don't know the fine points of Christian doctrine but still retain an unfocussed belief that there is a god who somewhat resembles the god of the Bible. For people like that, it's not that great a jump from being a "none" to a Bible believer. There may even be people who truly were Atheists, but something caused them to change their minds. I can only speculate (but won't) on what that might be.
And let me add, there are WAY too many Christians who like to say "I was an atheist too" when, in fact, they were not. You can hear it in their testimonies. They'll say things like "I hated God because He allowed such and such to happen." That's not how atheists would talk about it. We don't hate God anymore than Christians hate Odin. But "I was an atheist" makes a much better testimony than "I always believed in God because my parents told me He was real but they didn't teach me how to worship Him the way THIS COOL CHURCH GROUP did!"
I missed this before I posted by last reply.
While I will contingently believe anyone who tells me what their belief/disbelief status is, often their own words contradict their self-identification. No Atheist will say that they hated God, because you can't hate something that you don't believe exists. In my own experience, a lot of people who converted to Christianity came not from Atheism, but from a reaction against a straw man version of God, or just an ignorance of Christian doctrine.
Mourning is different when you're an atheist. Goodbye really is goodbye. I think I mourn the deaths of children more painfully than believers do. You believe they'll get the fulness of life they deserved. I don't. You think they'll awaken in perfect bodies that will never know pain. I don't.
Does that mean I place a greater value on their lives? No. But I put a greater price tag on their deaths.
I'm not an Atheist, but for the most part function as one. I have seen no evidence that there is life after death. If there is, fine, but I'm not holding my breath.
One of the hardest things I had to do in the last few years was attend the wake & funeral of my youngest brother, who died around this time last year after a long battle against cancer. With the exception of our dad, he was the most religious person that I know. He believed that he was going to be with Jesus, most of the family gathered around believed the same thing. I didn't. To me he was just gone.
Let me add something from a more positive approach:
You know all those people who believe they could never have improved their lives, conquered their demons, achieved their goals and ambitions, quit drugs, quit being violent, quit drinking, reformed, renounced a life of crime, ALL those people who say they could NEVER have fixed their lives without God?
Atheists believe you fixed your life without God. And we're f-ing proud of you in a way that we cannot express without picking a fight. But when you give God the glory for the change YOU made happen, we might nod politely, but in our hearts we're thinking: You Rock!
P.S. You found your own damn keys and parking spot.
and if I may add some more positive stuff ...if it wasn't for all the atheists, agnostics, as well as any other viewpoint that is different from TWI – I would probably still harbor a fundamentalism/spiritualism/Gnosticism mindset – even though I was out of TWI and didn't get involved with another ministry or church. I would be a burnt-out-believer-without-a-Twig – and probably would never have gotten into reevaluating TWI-doctrine....or going on to checking out philosophy of religion.
My hat goes off to all the atheists and agnostics that I have debated with for keeping it real – which inspired me to try and be more honest and open...helping me unravel the nature of a belief system...and many times forcing me to stay grounded in the plain and simple interpretation of Scripture...another thing I really admire is their bare-bones approach to life...to appreciate life right now and those you know and love and to do things just because it's the right thing to do and not because you're going to get some eternal reward...Sometimes I've said to my daughter you won't have down syndrome when you're in heaven – and though I continue to hope in a heaven, there is a part of me that doubts - and I think that's what really fuels my desire to see to it that she experiences as full a life as possible. And when I have thoughts like that which take God and heaven out of the picture – it's actually not as scary as I used to imagine while in TWI – there's often some sense of urgency to appreciate what I have right now.
in my weird sense of humor I sometimes wonder if there just might be some higher power that I am as yet unfamiliar with – who had the wisdom and benevolence to synchronize me with Grease Spot.
Hi guys, just got caught up on this thread a little bit. From my personal experiences I say absolutely yes that a true believer can change their mind and in fact change it back. Id did. I will say honestly and openly you wouldn't have found too many more zealous young wayfers than myself. I really believed what they taught and I really believed the facade they put out there for the general public and average home fellowship attendee. It's when I had major problems in life that the law of believing garbage gave me a serious reality check. Again, I followed the law of doctrine to the letter as well as my former wife. IT DOES NOT WORK. And that's where it all came crashing down for me. I was so hurt and disillusioned I just said screw it. It's taken me a slow process during a 13 span to get where I am today. Where am I today you may ask? Very secure in my faith in Christ.
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T-Bone
oh you can take a lot of credit my friend – you are definitely in the small handful of articulate, thoughtful and thought-provoking Grease Spotters that have had a huge influence on me...I appreciate
Raf
Ok, first, we're looking at two things here that are very different. One: Can a person with a deeply held belief change his mind about it? Second: What would be the consequence of such a cha
Raf
Bolshevik mentioned something about how atheists value life. I try not to quantify such things, but economics 101 tells you scarcity increases value. No atheist ever flew a plane into a building
Raf
Bolshevik mentioned something about how atheists value life. I try not to quantify such things, but economics 101 tells you scarcity increases value.
No atheist ever flew a plane into a building with the expectation of a reward in paradise.
But that works both ways. The flip side is, unless an atheist has an independent reason to believe a "sin" is wrong, there's nothing to stop him from committing it. Good news, in most cases there are plenty of independent reasons to believe a sin is wrong. Like murder. Rape. Stealing. Slavery. Executing people for shtupping the wrong person with consent. You know, things we can all agree is wrong.
You know what sins are stupid?
Sabbath breaking. TF?
Shellfish.
Bacon.
Turning around because the city you've called home is being consumed by literal fire and brimstone and, I don't know, you're maybe worried about your house or your pets or an actual friend.
Cooking a baby goat in its mother's milk.
Not saying Yahweh unless you mean it.
Those are stupid sins.
My point?
I'm sure it's around here somewhere.
Oh, yeah: I think "who values life more?" would be an interesting thread. But even if I have made statements to the contrary, I can honestly say they are presumptuous. I do not believe there is a simple answer to that question.
Mourning is different when you're an atheist. Goodbye really is goodbye. I think I mourn the deaths of children more painfully than believers do. You believe they'll get the fulness of life they deserved. I don't. You think they'll awaken in perfect bodies that will never know pain. I don't.
Does that mean I place a greater value on their lives? No. But I put a greater price tag on their deaths.
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Raf
We're quibbling over words. Let's not.
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Rocky
So don't quibble. But you know that words have meanings. Or at least I thought you did.
I'll bypass some of the quibbling and simply ask what are you attempting to accomplish with the question(s) you posed to start the topic?
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Raf
Read the law of believing thread. Then come back here.
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Bolshevik
I don't think I called out atheists specifically. Or any group or philosophy. If I did I will clarify.
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Raf
You're correct. I think you said ME specifically and I thought it was safe to extrapolate.
You might not even have meant me, come to think of it.
But my observation is off what you said, not who it was directed at.
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Bolshevik
I don't see this as quibbling.
This is trying to accurately relate subjective experience. I gave a simple flow chart as I understood how events relate to experience. (Event --> thought --> emotion). There's certainly more to grasp with relating beliefs and meaning and thoughts.
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Bolshevik
Scarcity could lead one to let go, too. I generally assume we all seek to reduce pain and suffering.
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T-Bone
I think there may have been some confusion over defining a “true believer”; here's one definition I found:
1. Definition of true believer. 1 : a person who professes absolute belief in something. 2 : a zealous supporter of a particular cause.
From: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/true believer
and here's another
2. What makes someone a true believer?
What marks a true believer is something that happens in the heart, because a true believer has been born again, regenerated, transformed, gone through a complete metamorphosis. And if we ask the question: what marks that transformation? Then we're getting to the reality of who is a true believer.
From: https://www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/43-70/traits-of-a-true-believer-part-1#
and here's yet a third
3. What does it mean to be a believer?
Believer (noun) one who believes; one who is persuaded of the truth or reality of some doctrine, person, or thing. Believer (noun) one who gives credit to the truth of the Scriptures, as a revelation from God; a Christian; -- in a more restricted sense, one who receives Christ as his Savior, and accepts the way of salvation unfolded in the gospel.
From: https://www.definitions.net/definition/believer#
There's more definitions on the internet – just wanted to post a few samples and say that my viewpoint has been addressing the question using definition #1.
And in light of the first definition being my reference point, I tend to look at the question “Can a true believer truly change his mind and truly become an unbeliever” in more of a physical way rather than a spiritual way (which would be more along the lines of definition #2). And in thinking of this in a physical way, I think in terms of a hardware versus software analogy of how a person functions.
Modern medicine has come a long way in understanding how our bodies work (hardware) – and they keep making incredible advances on how to help, heal and maintain our health... and furthermore it's commonly accepted that the health of the mind (software) affects the health of the body (hardware). Mind-body medicine works with practices that can improve health, such as relaxation, meditation, yoga, etc. - I recently shared on another thread how transcranial magnetic stimulation has helped my daughter manage clinical depression and relieve catatonia.
The field of psychology studies the mind - and often gets into "software issues"...Now me – I'm a hardware guy myself – if you've ever read my thread in computer questions you'll find out I'm pretty good at fixing equipment but not so good at understanding or fixing computers. Because machines, components, wiring and such are easier to troubleshoot – because you're not having to think in the abstract - Abstract thinking is the ability to think about things that are not actually present. People who think in an abstract way look at the broader significance of ideas and information rather than the concrete details. ..So as a technician I use my observation skills – for example – this pump motor doesn't work...Is the pump getting power? Is there power present at the outlet? Is there something funky about this electrical cord to the pump? A volt/ohm meter will diagnose the issue quickly...aha! There's power at the outlet. How about the electrical cord to the pump? Maybe there's either a short, open or ground on one or more of the wires of the cord... investigate...isolate...eliminate...problem solved...
but software? Aye yi yi !!!! 3 days ago, Windows 10 started acting glitchy after I just installed the latest iTunes update to backup my iPhone to my PC... I didn't have a clue! I spent over an hour on the phone with Apple support to find out how to sync and use other features and had to change a few option settings. Tech support lady told me they've gotten a lot of calls after the latest rollout...by the way, iTunes still not working 100% – why do these IT engineers constantly change layout and functionality?!?! and oh yeah, after I'm done with “fixing” iTunes, my laptop gives me an alert to run scandisk to fix errors...Did that – took 4 hours and at least Windows 10 is back to “normal”....I'm to the point I find all my computer and device problems kinda funny...the Apple tech support lady was putting me on hold a few times...then she says she's reading through some tech support notes she has on the latest update...we're dealing with the invisible here !!!!!
- you can't run it through an x-ray machine and see that my computer swallowed a dog whistle or something (I don't know if that's even possible). 
... ..the moral of the story.? Use tin cups and string for communication and learn to enjoy vinyl records played on a turntable... just kidding ...I mean how this ties in to this thread is that talking about beliefs and the mind gets into a very elusive and intangible subject – something we usually have to speculate about – how the mind works.
From what I’ve read online, some experts think our beliefs are somewhat like a software program always running in the background as we take in information and examine its source – checking for compatibility or conflicts with our existing beliefs. Our beliefs help form and/or modify a mental model for understanding the world, our self and others. ..As Rocky was saying “a change in values and beliefs would, imo, require changing more than a thought. Rather, changing how one interprets or gives meaning to a series of thoughts. “ The Psychology Today reference in my first post likens our beliefs to being a shortcut – a template. The parameters of the template or framework is something we use regularly...sometimes adjust or change.
My two-bit psychological imagination sees our belief system as an open architecture program. “Open architecture is a type of computer architecture or software architecture intended to make adding, upgrading, and swapping components with other computers easy”
from; Wikipedia open architecture
So however you want to look at it – if the brain (hardware) was created this way – or it just evolved this way – or however our brains came to be – for instance another option is presented in Prometheus 2012 film - a movie I thoroughly really enjoyed --- - but I was annoyed at one promo line “all your questions will be answered” - nope ! The movie triggered a ton of other questions about “the engineers” – maybe they'll get answered in the sequel...hmmmm that's how they got me hooked in PFAL
the flexibility...adaptability...creativity...exhibited in how we use our minds may indicate that even though some features and functionality is hardwired or has “default programming”, there are a lot of mysterious attributes and activities that enable us to change...adapt...grow...what's amazing is just the supposedly simple process of self-reflection – we observe and analyze ourselves – the convergence of hardware and software... “Metacognition is an awareness of one's own thought processes and an understanding of the patterns behind them.”
from: Wikipedia - metacognition
This awareness and understanding affords us options like being analytical, corrective, adaptive and even creative.
Edited by T-Bonetypos and formatting
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Raf
Rocky, I chose not to quibble with this summary of my position. The idea is what was important here, not the word choice.
If you would like to be more precise in recognizing that changing a worldview is far more complex than a "thought," I would certainly agree with you.
But I don't need to parse that in order to make my overall point: changing your [word we're arguing about here] can BE the significant emotional event rather than BEING CAUSED/PRECIPITATED BY such an event.
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Bolshevik
I believe it was one of Robert C. Solomon's works I am alluding to. I will keep looking.
He discussed emotions as judgements and are rational. The intelligence of emotions and what they are judging.
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Raf
I think my main point was that beliefs, worldviews, etc. can all fall under the general category of "thought" without damaging the point I was trying to make.
T-Bone, thank you.
Rocky, in the Law of Believing thread there was an implication that "truth be known" people who walk away from Christianity probably were never really believers to begin with. This thread was supposed to explore what it takes to change your mind. Your contribution has been priceless.
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Bolshevik
I was never a Christian.
I was raised a Wayfer. Hated for it. I was told I was born again before I can remember, as a toddler probably. I walked away from everything I knew, people, places, and beliefs. It was traumatic. Physically shook.
I was atheist for awhile and now am *shrugs*
We are often told what we are. Is what I was saying earlier.
Our emotional reaction as I understand is based on what goes on in our heads.
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Bolshevik
Some of the idea of cognitive dissonance on this website I get confused by.
I know the feeling of being split in two and operating as two people. Because of the high pressure situation. The chaos (I still have questions about in VPW's work - the contradictions - chaos).
Getting those people to collapse into one is the goal.
Only it's not like those people are split evenly. They are on different planes of existence so to speak.
Values and beliefs are one of the tools to keep people from splitting.
Raf is describing a "conversion experience" . . . is my understanding.
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Raf
Yes, Bolshevik. That is correct. But there's a subtlety to it.
There are those who believe a conversion experience is only possible in one direction. "Oh sure, you can go from atheist to Christian, because that's how it's supposed to work. But to go from Christian to atheist? No way! I have no choice but to question the genuineness of your Christian faith. No true Christian could ever turn away."
That's nonsense. More accurately, it's a defense mechanism to protect people of faith from even having to consider whether the departing Christian might have a point. Easier to shrug off the loss of a not-true-believer than it is to weigh the argument he presents and put your own faith to the test. Why, "the test" itself is anathema!
And yes, it goes the same in reverse: Some atheists can't stand the idea that a real atheist might be persuaded that there is a God, that His name is Yahweh, and that He was incarnated/represented/expressed/whatevered as the man Christ Jesus. Not a real atheist.
Except, of COURSE a real atheist could come to that conclusion.
The question in each case is HOW?
And let me add, there are WAY too many Christians who like to say "I was an atheist too" when, in fact, they were not. You can hear it in their testimonies. They'll say things like "I hated God because He allowed such and such to happen." That's not how atheists would talk about it. We don't hate God anymore than Christians hate Odin. But "I was an atheist" makes a much better testimony than "I always believed in God because my parents told me He was real but they didn't teach me how to worship Him the way THIS COOL CHURCH GROUP did!"
I can tell you that my earliest memories relate to the Kingdom Hall and the conviction that there is a God, Jesus is His Son and that the Bible is His Word. To me, until who knows when, the ONLY question about God was not whether He existed, but who got the Bible right! Had I started my quest with the mental ability to even consider whether this God story was fundamentally true, it might have changed my life. I thought critical thinking meant comparing what people said about God to what God said about Himself. It never even occurred to me that "what God said about Himself" was the mother of all presuppositions resulting in reasoning that circled and circled and circled until the tank refilled.
But none of that means an atheist can't convert to Christianity, or vice versa. Of course they can. It happens all the time.
Sometimes the change is precipitated by a "significant emotional event."
Sometimes the change precipitates significant emotional events.
I humbly submit that significant emotional events are too ubiquitous to identify as either a cause or effect of such a change, and it's probably more accurate to say the relationships between changes and events is symbiotic.
Then again, Rocky may be completely, 100 percent right without equivocation. After all, he did allow for exceptions, and our only disagreement is over how prevalent those exceptions are.
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waysider
When I was a kid, I believed in Santa Claus. I don't recall if it was an epiphany or an evolutionary process, but I no longer do. Nothing anyone could ever say or do could make me believe in his existence again. Maybe there's some sort of parallel there to the discussion at hand. I don't know. All I know is change is real and it happens, sometimes even when we don't want it to.
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Rocky
Have you ever considered writing a screenplay, or even the script for a stage production to illustrate what you have described above?
I think it could be very compelling.
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Rocky
Btw, HBD Raf!
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Oakspear
This should be an easy question with an obvious answer, i.e. of course some can change a deeply held belief, but there's those who employ the "No True Scotsman" fallacy by claiming that the ex-Christian was never really a Christian, or the ex-Atheist was never actually an Atheist. To be fair, there are likely those who outwardly conformed to Christian practice, went to church, "witnessed" etc, but never really believed it all and changing their mind was just admitting that they never truly believed what they said they believed. But you can't reflexively assume that anyone who changes their mind in this manner falls into that category. I think you have to believe people when they say that they believed. And the path from belief to disbelief is going to be different for everyone. For some it might be an trauma, for others it might involve realizing the inconsistency within the Bible, for still others it might be the lack of any evidence that might support belief.
The change from Atheism to Christianity is similar. There might be people who say they're Atheists, but who are really just people who either have rejected organized religion, or simply don't know the fine points of Christian doctrine but still retain an unfocussed belief that there is a god who somewhat resembles the god of the Bible. For people like that, it's not that great a jump from being a "none" to a Bible believer. There may even be people who truly were Atheists, but something caused them to change their minds. I can only speculate (but won't) on what that might be.
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Oakspear
I missed this before I posted by last reply.
While I will contingently believe anyone who tells me what their belief/disbelief status is, often their own words contradict their self-identification. No Atheist will say that they hated God, because you can't hate something that you don't believe exists. In my own experience, a lot of people who converted to Christianity came not from Atheism, but from a reaction against a straw man version of God, or just an ignorance of Christian doctrine.
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Oakspear
I'm not an Atheist, but for the most part function as one. I have seen no evidence that there is life after death. If there is, fine, but I'm not holding my breath.
One of the hardest things I had to do in the last few years was attend the wake & funeral of my youngest brother, who died around this time last year after a long battle against cancer. With the exception of our dad, he was the most religious person that I know. He believed that he was going to be with Jesus, most of the family gathered around believed the same thing. I didn't. To me he was just gone.
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Raf
Thank you for the input, all.
Let me add something from a more positive approach:
You know all those people who believe they could never have improved their lives, conquered their demons, achieved their goals and ambitions, quit drugs, quit being violent, quit drinking, reformed, renounced a life of crime, ALL those people who say they could NEVER have fixed their lives without God?
Atheists believe you fixed your life without God. And we're f-ing proud of you in a way that we cannot express without picking a fight. But when you give God the glory for the change YOU made happen, we might nod politely, but in our hearts we're thinking: You Rock!
P.S. You found your own damn keys and parking spot.
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T-Bone
and if I may add some more positive stuff ...if it wasn't for all the atheists, agnostics, as well as any other viewpoint that is different from TWI – I would probably still harbor a fundamentalism/spiritualism/Gnosticism mindset – even though I was out of TWI and didn't get involved with another ministry or church. I would be a burnt-out-believer-without-a-Twig – and probably would never have gotten into reevaluating TWI-doctrine....or going on to checking out philosophy of religion.
My hat goes off to all the atheists and agnostics that I have debated with for keeping it real – which inspired me to try and be more honest and open...helping me unravel the nature of a belief system...and many times forcing me to stay grounded in the plain and simple interpretation of Scripture...another thing I really admire is their bare-bones approach to life...to appreciate life right now and those you know and love and to do things just because it's the right thing to do and not because you're going to get some eternal reward...Sometimes I've said to my daughter you won't have down syndrome when you're in heaven – and though I continue to hope in a heaven, there is a part of me that doubts - and I think that's what really fuels my desire to see to it that she experiences as full a life as possible. And when I have thoughts like that which take God and heaven out of the picture – it's actually not as scary as I used to imagine while in TWI – there's often some sense of urgency to appreciate what I have right now.
in my weird sense of humor I sometimes wonder if there just might be some higher power that I am as yet unfamiliar with – who had the wisdom and benevolence to synchronize me with Grease Spot.
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OldSkool
Hi guys, just got caught up on this thread a little bit. From my personal experiences I say absolutely yes that a true believer can change their mind and in fact change it back. Id did. I will say honestly and openly you wouldn't have found too many more zealous young wayfers than myself. I really believed what they taught and I really believed the facade they put out there for the general public and average home fellowship attendee. It's when I had major problems in life that the law of believing garbage gave me a serious reality check. Again, I followed the law of doctrine to the letter as well as my former wife. IT DOES NOT WORK. And that's where it all came crashing down for me. I was so hurt and disillusioned I just said screw it. It's taken me a slow process during a 13 span to get where I am today. Where am I today you may ask? Very secure in my faith in Christ.
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