Yeah, but, Doctor said "Fear is sand in the machinery of life."
Funny he said that in the class but promoted fear through the way tree, turning the tree upside down and killing the leaves. As Bolshevik said somewhere back a few posts, fear was institutionalized.
The no fear thing was all about getting you through the 12th session anyway. After that you were fair game.
Thinking back at some of the places I worked, fear was used a lot. Like fear of getting fired or doing something the wrong way, or somehow shamed. TWI went further than that, trying to get deep in your mind and life and be afraid of every thought.
The narcissist loves the reflection of themselves that others show them. However, there is no true self to fellowship with. They must draw people in for supply and in time discard when those same people get too close.
The organization reflects its founder. By definition it cannot be transparent. By definition it cannot change. It only exists on a reflection of a reflection. Even when the founder lived there was no center.
I don't speak for all spinoffs, but mine seems to regard pfal as an "old wineskin" There is a list of 16 points of doctrine pfal was wrong about. Richard Thomas had a guy in the area tell him he was running pfal classes. He called the guy a thief and a dinosaur.
I'm sure that it is possible to get possessed by going to a trinitarian church. Where do you think twi got half its people? I listened to Terry Riley's 'A rainbow in curved air' Yesterday. I don't FEEL possessed! (in the same spirit as David Lee Roth's "I don't FEEL tardy!" from 'Hot for teacher' BTW Back in the day, I would have felt perfectly safe doing TWO hits of acid while listening to that song. (Rainbow...not Hot)
I'm sure that it is possible to get possessed by going to a trinitarian church. Where do you think twi got half its people?
I long ago came to the conclusion that neither God nor the Lord Jesus cares about trinitarianism or otherwise. They've had 2000 years to correct the error if it's important to them. But no, if anything, trinis are getting more aggressive in pushing their PoV.
Its seems to me that they'd rather you believed God in whatever form - trini or otherwise - and whether JC=G or JCNG doesn't matter. To trinis, he is God. To non-trinis, JC is the embodiment or encapsulation of all of God's goodness and righteousness, whilst being fully and only human.
I go to a church that's really quite trini, but it's not really a discussed matter. What is discussed, preached and practised is kindness, trusting God, honouring God, believing God, and looking at Jesus as the model and the loving carer for the church. And far from being possessed, the congregation in general and the leadership in particular are working very actively to combat poverty, loneliness, and to bring the love of God and Jesus to a neighbourhood where many don't know at all, and who have daily problems that need practical help (which is given as much as possible). I have never heard a condemning word - "You've got these problems? It's your believing at fault. Your problems are your fault. Are you sure you're abundantly sharing?" Abundantly sharing? Heck, it goes the other way: the church supports with free meals and food parcels those who for whatever reason have the choice between "heat," "eat" and "feet" - paying for their gas/electricity, food for the kids, and clothing and other necessaries.
Does that sound like "possessed" to you, Mike?
Or does looking poverty or any type of distress in the face, quoting Bible verses and offering to pray but not otherwise doing anything - does that sound more "possessed"?
I don't speak for all spinoffs, but mine seems to regard pfal as an "old wineskin" There is a list of 16 points of doctrine pfal was wrong about. Richard Thomas had a guy in the area tell him he was running pfal classes. He called the guy a thief and a dinosaur.
I'm sure that it is possible to get possessed by going to a trinitarian church. Where do you think twi got half its people? I listened to Terry Riley's 'A rainbow in curved air' Yesterday. I don't FEEL possessed! (in the same spirit as David Lee Roth's "I don't FEEL tardy!" from 'Hot for teacher' BTW Back in the day, I would have felt perfectly safe doing TWO hits of acid while listening to that song. (Rainbow...not Hot)
"Getting possessed" is a projection of the narcissist's self-hatred onto you. You got too close to reality. Unacceptable.
You'll accept this "possessed" nonsense onto yourself and others in order to get closer to the leadership. Protect the absent ego at all costs. You chose this arrangement because. . . .
Couple scriptures come to mind...avoid foolish and unlearned questions...don't cast pearls before swine...
I think you're being disingenuous with me. You don't care what led me to this or any conclusion. You're just trying to lure me into an argument. Not going there, but I will attempt to answer your question.
IMO the MOST perpetual sign of God's love to mankind is...that he gave us, by creation, the capacity to make our own choices. Nobody is really a robot. We all process life in our own ways. Our minds, again by creation, all have the capacity to formulate thoughts. 95 plus percent of our thoughts are from our own minds, but that isn't the only possibility. God can directly put thoughts in our minds, especially those of us who are born again of His spirit. So can the devil.
We learned in the 'dealing with the adversary' class that the devil has 4 fronts. 4 ways of disseminating info to us.
1) society 2) religion (source of the trinity, wink, wink) 3 other people and 4) ourselves. It works like this...not every word from those 4 are directly from the devil, but some are. If an individual believes and meditates on words directly from the devil from the first 3 of those, then ultimately, that's what will enable the devil to put thoughts directly into that individual's mind. That's basically how ANYBODY can get possessed. Comprende? Didn't think so.
You could get possessed anywhere. Jack the Ripper was from the royal family. You don't think he was possessed? You could be raised in Barbie's dream house and still get possessed.
The most strict laws in the OT were attempting to keep devil spirits out of Israel. Worshipping other gods was number 1 concern. The trinity is another god. VP did, in advanced class 79, make the distinction between being adamant about the trinity and not being adamant, saying that those who were adamant were possessed. I met people like that. Creeeeepeeeee!
Process this post any way you wish, but that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
That's exactly what it is, an opinion. One that's not based on any sort of credible evidence. If there is anything in the Bible (not a Way class) to support your claim, you are more than welcome to present it. You make statements like this: "The most strict laws in the OT were attempting to keep devil spirits out of Israel." Is there any basis for this assertion? Please feel free to enlighten me.
"I'm sure that it is possible to get possessed by going to a trinitarian church. Where do you think twi got half its people? "
Half of twi's people were possessed people who came possessed from trinitarian churches?
Interesting how it's only "trinitarian churches" that are a risk for getting possessed, here. Other cults, no. Groups demanding blind loyalty, no. Actual occult practices, no. Actual devil/demon worship, no. No worries about practicing Satanists, but that Franciscan Order RCC that's feeding the hungry and helping people get jobs and housing are hazardous to your spiritual health!
"You could get possessed anywhere. Jack the Ripper was from the royal family. You don't think he was possessed? You could be raised in Barbie's dream house and still get possessed. "
Ah, but you didn't mention ANYTHING else until called on it. But places teaching Christ as best they can are certainly hard ground to try to get people possessed, rather than, say, some kid listening to death metal and torturing animals.
"We learned in the 'dealing with the adversary' class that the devil has 4 fronts. 4 ways of disseminating info to us.
1) society 2) religion (source of the trinity, wink, wink) 3 other people and 4) ourselves."
Those categories are highly arbitrary- Categories 1 and 2 overlap, since religion is in society. Categories 1 and 2 overlap in Category 3, because people don't exist apart from society. Finally, we disseminate information to OURSELVES?
Rather than just parroting back what someone taught you, really think about it sometime.
"The trinity is another god."
The Trinity is how your fellow Christians- for whom Christ died- try to understand God and Christ and serve both. Ganesha is "another god." Odin is "another god." Zeus is "another god."
" VP did, in advanced class 79, make the distinction between being adamant about the trinity and not being adamant, saying that those who were adamant were possessed. I met people like that. Creeeeepeeeee! "
News flash- anyone really adamant about ANYTHING, whose life revolves around ANYTHING- religious, poltical, etc, is CREEPY (providing you're not in full 100% agreement with them.) You don't have to be possessed to be creepy, any more than you have to be possessed to be a creep.
"Process this post any way you wish, but that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. "
Actually, that was vpw's opinion that you're sticking to, but that's hardly news at this point.
John 8:12 - the pharisees therefore said unto him, thou bearest record of thyself, thy record is not true.
In other words, hey, Jesus, that's just your opinion. Same self righteous tone as in WWs and Waysider's last posts.
I recall one encounter with a person who was adamant about the trinity. I tried to point out 1 Tim 1:5, one God...one mediator between God and men...the man Christ Jesus. Not the God/man, the man. The idiot came back with...a mediator has to be fully partaker of both. Not correct. A mediator, by definition, is a third party, agreed on by the other 2 parties to resolve a dispute. For example, in major league baseball at times, a player will demand X amount of money, but the team says no, we'll give you less than X. So a mediator is hired to resolve the dispute. The mediator in this case is called an arbitrator. This arbitrator is not a player or an owner. He/she cannot be full or any percent partaker of either. If he/she was, it would be a conflict of interests.
Jesus is not any percent partaker of God. He is a man, but all other humans are sinners. Jesus was tempted in all points, yet without sin (Heb 4:15). (Pssst...God cannot be tempted Jas 1:13) This is the ONLY thing which qualifies Jesus to be a mediator between God and man.
Just like the adamant trinitarian, you must think you are smarter than God if you disagree. You claim you are "trying to understand God"???? Not trying very hard. God says thou shalt have NO OTHER GODS before Him. What part of no other Gods don't you understand??? Again, you think you are smarter than God. 'No other Gods' is perfectly understandable.
BTW God sees me as holy. No one approaches God without holiness. Check out Lev 10:1-3 if you want to see what happens to people who try to approach God without holiness. Christ accomplished holiness for us (Eph 1:4). But, of course, you still think you are smarter than God, so that can't be right.
"John 8:12 - the pharisees therefore said unto him, thou bearest record of thyself, thy record is not true.
In other words, hey, Jesus, that's just your opinion. Same self righteous tone as in WWs and Waysider's last posts."
[It's fascinating when vpw apologists resort both to strawmen and insults when replying to me. They can't refute my points, so they change the subject and pretend they did refute them. In this case, pointing out blatant errors in vpw's classes- which I did= was equated with Pharisees dismissing Jesus. Wow, equating Jesus' in-person teaching with vpw's classes! That's amazing.]
"I recall one encounter with a person who was adamant about the trinity. I tried to point out 1 Tim 1:5, one God...one mediator between God and men...the man Christ Jesus. Not the God/man, the man. The idiot came back with...a mediator has to be fully partaker of both. Not correct. A mediator, by definition, is a third party, agreed on by the other 2 parties to resolve a dispute. For example, in major league baseball at times, a player will demand X amount of money, but the team says no, we'll give you less than X. So a mediator is hired to resolve the dispute. The mediator in this case is called an arbitrator. This arbitrator is not a player or an owner. He/she cannot be full or any percent partaker of either. If he/she was, it would be a conflict of interests. "
[I'd certainly agree that a mediator is supposed to be impartial, and thus neither of the parties between whom he is mediating, and not a member of EITHER party or of BOTH parties. The concept of the conflict of interest isn't terribly modern even if the term is modern. (The same is true of power of attorney- an ancient concept with a modern name.]
"Jesus is not any percent partaker of God. He is a man, but all other humans are sinners. Jesus was tempted in all points, yet without sin (Heb 4:15). (Pssst...God cannot be tempted Jas 1:13) This is the ONLY thing which qualifies Jesus to be a mediator between God and man. "
[I'd agree, obviously, that Hebrews 4:15 and James 1:!3 contrast Jesus with God quite neatly- God CANNOT be tempted, and Jesus WAS tempted, therefore, at the very least, they can't be the same being and are not the same being.]
"Just like the adamant trinitarian, you must think you are smarter than God if you disagree."
[Where did I disagree with that? Oh, that's right- in your imagination I disagreed with that. I didn't say the doctrine of the Trinity was CORRECT, nor did I imply it. On a different subject, is there a verse that says that if you're a Trinitarian, "you must think you are smarter than God"? There's plenty of Trinitarians who are sure that God is amazingly smarter than them, and believe in the Trinity. Pope Francis seems to be a humble man of compassion and piety, very much the kind of Christian to minister to the sick and poor and so on- and he's a Trinitarian and quite certain of his position. According to your previous post, adamant Trinitarians are supposedly possessed. (vpw said it, that settles it...) ]
"You claim you are "trying to understand God"???? Not trying very hard. God says thou shalt have NO OTHER GODS before Him. What part of no other Gods don't you understand??? "
{b[Poor reading comprehension is showing here. I posted that the Trinitarians are trying to understand God. I never even suggested I agreed with their conclusions. I disagree with your unsupported assertion that people who believe in the Trinity are believing in "other gods." I already posted about that- Zeus, Ganesha and Odin are "other gods." Trinitarians are worshiping the God of the Old Testament and the New Testament, they pray in Jesus' name, they try to follow Jesus' example, and they show "Christian morality" in their behavior often. If they're incorrect in how they view Jesus' relation to his Father, they understand behaving like they were told to behave. They're the ones who put forth a hand of compassion to help others. I've seen plenty of non-Trinitarians who think the only important behavior is to condemn Trinitarians for errant doctrine, and care nothing about helping others. I'm sure you're certain it's far more important to eschew the Trinity than to help others, and I'm certain the opposite is true. God's tendency to answer the prayers of Trinitarians and Unitarians with identical alacrity seem the strongest statement on how God feels about it. If it was that important, one side would get their prayers answered, and the other would get lots of visions about how they'd have to mend their doctrine before He'd answer. The Trinitarians, for whom Christ died, are just as sincere and devout as you- I'd argue a number are moreso. I'm not prepared to see them do the right thing and get prayers answered, and still condemn them for errant doctrine. If you are, then perhaps it's really YOU that think you're smarter than God, since you sound like you'd take Him to task for answering their prayers as fast as He answers yours. Or, more to the point, you may think vpw was smarter than God, if adhering to his doctrine means God's off the ball for answering the prayers of the Trinitarians.
If you actually believed I thought I was smarter than God, or even in His ballpark, it would demonstrate an inability to understand my posts. I'm not convinced that's a genuine conclusion based on what I've posted rather than what you've imagined I've posted (like imaging I was talking about myself when I said "the Trinitarians."][/b]
"You could get possessed anywhere. Jack the Ripper was from the royal family. You don't think he was possessed? You could be raised in Barbie's dream house and still get possessed. "
Ah, but you didn't mention ANYTHING else until called on it. But places teaching Christ as best they can are certainly hard ground to try to get people possessed, rather than, say, some kid listening to death metal and torturing animals.
"We learned in the 'dealing with the adversary' class that the devil has 4 fronts. 4 ways of disseminating info to us.
1) society 2) religion (source of the trinity, wink, wink) 3 other people and 4) ourselves."
Those categories are highly arbitrary- Categories 1 and 2 overlap, since religion is in society. Categories 1 and 2 overlap in Category 3, because people don't exist apart from society. Finally, we disseminate information to OURSELVES?
Rather than just parroting back what someone taught you, really think about it sometime.
"The trinity is another god."
The Trinity is how your fellow Christians- for whom Christ died- try to understand God and Christ and serve both. Ganesha is "another god." Odin is "another god." Zeus is "another god."
" VP did, in advanced class 79, make the distinction between being adamant about the trinity and not being adamant, saying that those who were adamant were possessed. I met people like that. Creeeeepeeeee! "
News flash- anyone really adamant about ANYTHING, whose life revolves around ANYTHING- religious, poltical, etc, is CREEPY (providing you're not in full 100% agreement with them.) You don't have to be possessed to be creepy, any more than you have to be possessed to be a creep.
"Process this post any way you wish, but that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. "
Actually, that was vpw's opinion that you're sticking to, but that's hardly news at this point.
This was the post that, apparently, was enough of a problem that distractions had to be made to draw attention away from it.
It shows some obvious, blatant errors by vpw when he taught DWA and advanced class 79. It also refuted the ridiculous claims that fellow Christians who are Trinitarians are following another god (and not following God but being mistaken how to do so). and that one had to be possessed to be an ideological creep or creepy.
BTW, for those out there who never took it, these are some of the results of pfal and twi- if you dedicate yourself to pfal or twi ideology, posts like this are one expected result. Lots of name-calling, self-righteousness, calling people possessed, and clinging to doctrines that are easy to refute.
I long ago came to the conclusion that neither God nor the Lord Jesus cares about trinitarianism or otherwise. They've had 2000 years to correct the error if it's important to them. But no, if anything, trinis are getting more aggressive in pushing their PoV.
Its seems to me that they'd rather you believed God in whatever form - trini or otherwise - and whether JC=G or JCNG doesn't matter. To trinis, he is God. To non-trinis, JC is the embodiment or encapsulation of all of God's goodness and righteousness, whilst being fully and only human.
I go to a church that's really quite trini, but it's not really a discussed matter. What is discussed, preached and practised is kindness, trusting God, honouring God, believing God, and looking at Jesus as the model and the loving carer for the church. And far from being possessed, the congregation in general and the leadership in particular are working very actively to combat poverty, loneliness, and to bring the love of God and Jesus to a neighbourhood where many don't know at all, and who have daily problems that need practical help (which is given as much as possible). I have never heard a condemning word - "You've got these problems? It's your believing at fault. Your problems are your fault. Are you sure you're abundantly sharing?" Abundantly sharing? Heck, it goes the other way: the church supports with free meals and food parcels those who for whatever reason have the choice between "heat," "eat" and "feet" - paying for their gas/electricity, food for the kids, and clothing and other necessaries.
Does that sound like "possessed" to you, Mike John?
Or does looking poverty or any type of distress in the face, quoting Bible verses and offering to pray but not otherwise doing anything - does that sound more "possessed"?
There are some very good points here, but you were responding to John and not Mike, so I adjusted it in the quote.
That's exactly what it is, an opinion. One that's not based on any sort of credible evidence. If there is anything in the Bible (not a Way class) to support your claim, you are more than welcome to present it. You make statements like this: "The most strict laws in the OT were attempting to keep devil spirits out of Israel." Is there any basis for this assertion? Please feel free to enlighten me.
Just for the record, Walter Cummins taught DWA, not VP.
quote:
"I'm sure that it is possible to get possessed by going to a trinitarian church. Where do you think twi got half its people? "
Half of twi's people were possessed people who came possessed from trinitarian churches?
Interesting how it's only "trinitarian churches" that are a risk for getting possessed, here. Other cults, no. Groups demanding blind loyalty, no. Actual occult practices, no. Actual devil/demon worship, no. No worries about practicing Satanists, but that Franciscan Order RCC that's feeding the hungry and helping people get jobs and housing are hazardous to your spiritual health!
Where did I say "only"? Also...quote: Half of twi's people were possessed people who came possessed from trinitarian churches? - That's not what I posted. All you ever do is misrepresent anything you don't like. I don't have to give you a straight answer. (Prov. 26:4 - answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him)
Hey, Waysider? I guess you succeeded in luring me into an argument after all.
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cman
Thinking back at some of the places I worked, fear was used a lot. Like fear of getting fired or doing something the wrong way, or somehow shamed. TWI went further than that, trying to get deep in you
cman
Funny he said that in the class but promoted fear through the way tree, turning the tree upside down and killing the leaves. As Bolshevik said somewhere back a few posts, fear was institutionalized.
OldSkool
Yep, and thats total BS. That is probably based on the law of believing, which traces it's roots back to the the new thought metaphysics movement made popular by Phineas Parkhurst Quimby then traces t
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cman
Funny he said that in the class but promoted fear through the way tree, turning the tree upside down and killing the leaves. As Bolshevik said somewhere back a few posts, fear was institutionalized.
The no fear thing was all about getting you through the 12th session anyway. After that you were fair game.
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cman
Thinking back at some of the places I worked, fear was used a lot. Like fear of getting fired or doing something the wrong way, or somehow shamed. TWI went further than that, trying to get deep in your mind and life and be afraid of every thought.
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Bolshevik
The narcissist loves the reflection of themselves that others show them. However, there is no true self to fellowship with. They must draw people in for supply and in time discard when those same people get too close.
The organization reflects its founder. By definition it cannot be transparent. By definition it cannot change. It only exists on a reflection of a reflection. Even when the founder lived there was no center.
PLAF is an invitation to a house of mirrors.
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johniam
I don't speak for all spinoffs, but mine seems to regard pfal as an "old wineskin" There is a list of 16 points of doctrine pfal was wrong about. Richard Thomas had a guy in the area tell him he was running pfal classes. He called the guy a thief and a dinosaur.
I'm sure that it is possible to get possessed by going to a trinitarian church. Where do you think twi got half its people? I listened to Terry Riley's 'A rainbow in curved air' Yesterday. I don't FEEL possessed! (in the same spirit as David Lee Roth's "I don't FEEL tardy!" from 'Hot for teacher' BTW Back in the day, I would have felt perfectly safe doing TWO hits of acid while listening to that song. (Rainbow...not Hot)
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waysider
May I ask what led you to this conclusion?
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Twinky
I long ago came to the conclusion that neither God nor the Lord Jesus cares about trinitarianism or otherwise. They've had 2000 years to correct the error if it's important to them. But no, if anything, trinis are getting more aggressive in pushing their PoV.
Its seems to me that they'd rather you believed God in whatever form - trini or otherwise - and whether JC=G or JCNG doesn't matter. To trinis, he is God. To non-trinis, JC is the embodiment or encapsulation of all of God's goodness and righteousness, whilst being fully and only human.
I go to a church that's really quite trini, but it's not really a discussed matter. What is discussed, preached and practised is kindness, trusting God, honouring God, believing God, and looking at Jesus as the model and the loving carer for the church. And far from being possessed, the congregation in general and the leadership in particular are working very actively to combat poverty, loneliness, and to bring the love of God and Jesus to a neighbourhood where many don't know at all, and who have daily problems that need practical help (which is given as much as possible). I have never heard a condemning word - "You've got these problems? It's your believing at fault. Your problems are your fault. Are you sure you're abundantly sharing?" Abundantly sharing? Heck, it goes the other way: the church supports with free meals and food parcels those who for whatever reason have the choice between "heat," "eat" and "feet" - paying for their gas/electricity, food for the kids, and clothing and other necessaries.
Does that sound like "possessed" to you, Mike?
Or does looking poverty or any type of distress in the face, quoting Bible verses and offering to pray but not otherwise doing anything - does that sound more "possessed"?
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Bolshevik
"Getting possessed" is a projection of the narcissist's self-hatred onto you. You got too close to reality. Unacceptable.
You'll accept this "possessed" nonsense onto yourself and others in order to get closer to the leadership. Protect the absent ego at all costs. You chose this arrangement because. . . .
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Bolshevik
The Word takes the place of the absent Christ.
Grandiosity takes the place of the absent ego.
Self entertained mode: ON
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Rocky
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johniam
quote: May I ask what led you to this conclusion?
Couple scriptures come to mind...avoid foolish and unlearned questions...don't cast pearls before swine...
I think you're being disingenuous with me. You don't care what led me to this or any conclusion. You're just trying to lure me into an argument. Not going there, but I will attempt to answer your question.
IMO the MOST perpetual sign of God's love to mankind is...that he gave us, by creation, the capacity to make our own choices. Nobody is really a robot. We all process life in our own ways. Our minds, again by creation, all have the capacity to formulate thoughts. 95 plus percent of our thoughts are from our own minds, but that isn't the only possibility. God can directly put thoughts in our minds, especially those of us who are born again of His spirit. So can the devil.
We learned in the 'dealing with the adversary' class that the devil has 4 fronts. 4 ways of disseminating info to us.
1) society 2) religion (source of the trinity, wink, wink) 3 other people and 4) ourselves. It works like this...not every word from those 4 are directly from the devil, but some are. If an individual believes and meditates on words directly from the devil from the first 3 of those, then ultimately, that's what will enable the devil to put thoughts directly into that individual's mind. That's basically how ANYBODY can get possessed. Comprende? Didn't think so.
You could get possessed anywhere. Jack the Ripper was from the royal family. You don't think he was possessed? You could be raised in Barbie's dream house and still get possessed.
The most strict laws in the OT were attempting to keep devil spirits out of Israel. Worshipping other gods was number 1 concern. The trinity is another god. VP did, in advanced class 79, make the distinction between being adamant about the trinity and not being adamant, saying that those who were adamant were possessed. I met people like that. Creeeeepeeeee!
Process this post any way you wish, but that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
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waysider
That's exactly what it is, an opinion. One that's not based on any sort of credible evidence. If there is anything in the Bible (not a Way class) to support your claim, you are more than welcome to present it. You make statements like this: "The most strict laws in the OT were attempting to keep devil spirits out of Israel." Is there any basis for this assertion? Please feel free to enlighten me.
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cman
Wow johniam or is it johnboy (Richard Thomas).
Do you really think someone here hasn't heard all that and comprehended it?
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Bolshevik
Crazymaking language. Word Salad.
Chaos for the sake of chaos. Disorienting. The point is there is no point.
A backdoor for supply.
Or Twigleader 101.
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WordWolf
"I'm sure that it is possible to get possessed by going to a trinitarian church. Where do you think twi got half its people? "
Half of twi's people were possessed people who came possessed from trinitarian churches?
Interesting how it's only "trinitarian churches" that are a risk for getting possessed, here. Other cults, no. Groups demanding blind loyalty, no. Actual occult practices, no. Actual devil/demon worship, no. No worries about practicing Satanists, but that Franciscan Order RCC that's feeding the hungry and helping people get jobs and housing are hazardous to your spiritual health!
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WordWolf
"You could get possessed anywhere. Jack the Ripper was from the royal family. You don't think he was possessed? You could be raised in Barbie's dream house and still get possessed. "
Ah, but you didn't mention ANYTHING else until called on it. But places teaching Christ as best they can are certainly hard ground to try to get people possessed, rather than, say, some kid listening to death metal and torturing animals.
"We learned in the 'dealing with the adversary' class that the devil has 4 fronts. 4 ways of disseminating info to us.
1) society 2) religion (source of the trinity, wink, wink) 3 other people and 4) ourselves."
Those categories are highly arbitrary- Categories 1 and 2 overlap, since religion is in society. Categories 1 and 2 overlap in Category 3, because people don't exist apart from society. Finally, we disseminate information to OURSELVES?
Rather than just parroting back what someone taught you, really think about it sometime.
"The trinity is another god."
The Trinity is how your fellow Christians- for whom Christ died- try to understand God and Christ and serve both. Ganesha is "another god." Odin is "another god." Zeus is "another god."
" VP did, in advanced class 79, make the distinction between being adamant about the trinity and not being adamant, saying that those who were adamant were possessed. I met people like that. Creeeeepeeeee! "
News flash- anyone really adamant about ANYTHING, whose life revolves around ANYTHING- religious, poltical, etc, is CREEPY (providing you're not in full 100% agreement with them.) You don't have to be possessed to be creepy, any more than you have to be possessed to be a creep.
"Process this post any way you wish, but that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. "
Actually, that was vpw's opinion that you're sticking to, but that's hardly news at this point.
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johniam
John 8:12 - the pharisees therefore said unto him, thou bearest record of thyself, thy record is not true.
In other words, hey, Jesus, that's just your opinion. Same self righteous tone as in WWs and Waysider's last posts.
I recall one encounter with a person who was adamant about the trinity. I tried to point out 1 Tim 1:5, one God...one mediator between God and men...the man Christ Jesus. Not the God/man, the man. The idiot came back with...a mediator has to be fully partaker of both. Not correct. A mediator, by definition, is a third party, agreed on by the other 2 parties to resolve a dispute. For example, in major league baseball at times, a player will demand X amount of money, but the team says no, we'll give you less than X. So a mediator is hired to resolve the dispute. The mediator in this case is called an arbitrator. This arbitrator is not a player or an owner. He/she cannot be full or any percent partaker of either. If he/she was, it would be a conflict of interests.
Jesus is not any percent partaker of God. He is a man, but all other humans are sinners. Jesus was tempted in all points, yet without sin (Heb 4:15). (Pssst...God cannot be tempted Jas 1:13) This is the ONLY thing which qualifies Jesus to be a mediator between God and man.
Just like the adamant trinitarian, you must think you are smarter than God if you disagree. You claim you are "trying to understand God"???? Not trying very hard. God says thou shalt have NO OTHER GODS before Him. What part of no other Gods don't you understand??? Again, you think you are smarter than God. 'No other Gods' is perfectly understandable.
BTW God sees me as holy. No one approaches God without holiness. Check out Lev 10:1-3 if you want to see what happens to people who try to approach God without holiness. Christ accomplished holiness for us (Eph 1:4). But, of course, you still think you are smarter than God, so that can't be right.
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Bolshevik
Ok. So. There's a strawman . . . plus bordering on covert to overt aggression.
Real hatred for these Trinitarians. Plus hatred who disagrees with
Godyou. Because they are like theTrinitarians. . ..not you .. . not VPW.So either you hate the Trinitarians or Doc Vic hated them therefore you hate them. Anyone who doesn't hate the Trinitarians hates VPW.
GodVPW sees you as holy. You'd want to protect that.Echo is a neat name. Reminds me of rumination. Which is a word related to cows. Holy Cow.
Bow before the Holy Cow.
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OldSkool
Oh here's something totally new...not! johniam takes over a thread on staff with his usual craziness.
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WordWolf
"John 8:12 - the pharisees therefore said unto him, thou bearest record of thyself, thy record is not true.
In other words, hey, Jesus, that's just your opinion. Same self righteous tone as in WWs and Waysider's last posts."
[It's fascinating when vpw apologists resort both to strawmen and insults when replying to me. They can't refute my points, so they change the subject and pretend they did refute them. In this case, pointing out blatant errors in vpw's classes- which I did= was equated with Pharisees dismissing Jesus. Wow, equating Jesus' in-person teaching with vpw's classes! That's amazing.]
"I recall one encounter with a person who was adamant about the trinity. I tried to point out 1 Tim 1:5, one God...one mediator between God and men...the man Christ Jesus. Not the God/man, the man. The idiot came back with...a mediator has to be fully partaker of both. Not correct. A mediator, by definition, is a third party, agreed on by the other 2 parties to resolve a dispute. For example, in major league baseball at times, a player will demand X amount of money, but the team says no, we'll give you less than X. So a mediator is hired to resolve the dispute. The mediator in this case is called an arbitrator. This arbitrator is not a player or an owner. He/she cannot be full or any percent partaker of either. If he/she was, it would be a conflict of interests. "
[I'd certainly agree that a mediator is supposed to be impartial, and thus neither of the parties between whom he is mediating, and not a member of EITHER party or of BOTH parties. The concept of the conflict of interest isn't terribly modern even if the term is modern. (The same is true of power of attorney- an ancient concept with a modern name.]
"Jesus is not any percent partaker of God. He is a man, but all other humans are sinners. Jesus was tempted in all points, yet without sin (Heb 4:15). (Pssst...God cannot be tempted Jas 1:13) This is the ONLY thing which qualifies Jesus to be a mediator between God and man. "
[I'd agree, obviously, that Hebrews 4:15 and James 1:!3 contrast Jesus with God quite neatly- God CANNOT be tempted, and Jesus WAS tempted, therefore, at the very least, they can't be the same being and are not the same being.]
"Just like the adamant trinitarian, you must think you are smarter than God if you disagree."
[Where did I disagree with that? Oh, that's right- in your imagination I disagreed with that. I didn't say the doctrine of the Trinity was CORRECT, nor did I imply it. On a different subject, is there a verse that says that if you're a Trinitarian, "you must think you are smarter than God"? There's plenty of Trinitarians who are sure that God is amazingly smarter than them, and believe in the Trinity. Pope Francis seems to be a humble man of compassion and piety, very much the kind of Christian to minister to the sick and poor and so on- and he's a Trinitarian and quite certain of his position. According to your previous post, adamant Trinitarians are supposedly possessed. (vpw said it, that settles it...) ]
"You claim you are "trying to understand God"???? Not trying very hard. God says thou shalt have NO OTHER GODS before Him. What part of no other Gods don't you understand??? "
{b[Poor reading comprehension is showing here. I posted that the Trinitarians are trying to understand God. I never even suggested I agreed with their conclusions. I disagree with your unsupported assertion that people who believe in the Trinity are believing in "other gods." I already posted about that- Zeus, Ganesha and Odin are "other gods." Trinitarians are worshiping the God of the Old Testament and the New Testament, they pray in Jesus' name, they try to follow Jesus' example, and they show "Christian morality" in their behavior often. If they're incorrect in how they view Jesus' relation to his Father, they understand behaving like they were told to behave. They're the ones who put forth a hand of compassion to help others. I've seen plenty of non-Trinitarians who think the only important behavior is to condemn Trinitarians for errant doctrine, and care nothing about helping others. I'm sure you're certain it's far more important to eschew the Trinity than to help others, and I'm certain the opposite is true. God's tendency to answer the prayers of Trinitarians and Unitarians with identical alacrity seem the strongest statement on how God feels about it. If it was that important, one side would get their prayers answered, and the other would get lots of visions about how they'd have to mend their doctrine before He'd answer. The Trinitarians, for whom Christ died, are just as sincere and devout as you- I'd argue a number are moreso. I'm not prepared to see them do the right thing and get prayers answered, and still condemn them for errant doctrine. If you are, then perhaps it's really YOU that think you're smarter than God, since you sound like you'd take Him to task for answering their prayers as fast as He answers yours. Or, more to the point, you may think vpw was smarter than God, if adhering to his doctrine means God's off the ball for answering the prayers of the Trinitarians.
If you actually believed I thought I was smarter than God, or even in His ballpark, it would demonstrate an inability to understand my posts. I'm not convinced that's a genuine conclusion based on what I've posted rather than what you've imagined I've posted (like imaging I was talking about myself when I said "the Trinitarians."][/b]
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WordWolf
This was the post that, apparently, was enough of a problem that distractions had to be made to draw attention away from it.
It shows some obvious, blatant errors by vpw when he taught DWA and advanced class 79. It also refuted the ridiculous claims that fellow Christians who are Trinitarians are following another god (and not following God but being mistaken how to do so). and that one had to be possessed to be an ideological creep or creepy.
BTW, for those out there who never took it, these are some of the results of pfal and twi- if you dedicate yourself to pfal or twi ideology, posts like this are one expected result. Lots of name-calling, self-righteousness, calling people possessed, and clinging to doctrines that are easy to refute.
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WordWolf
There are some very good points here, but you were responding to John and not Mike, so I adjusted it in the quote.
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WordWolf
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Bolshevik
Behind narcissistic rage is typically envy, or some perceived attack on the absent self.
The Trinity, Dead are not Alive, and Abortion always seemed to be the Big 3 in inciting rage. (When they're not yelling about money).
Just an observation.
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johniam
Just for the record, Walter Cummins taught DWA, not VP.
quote:
"I'm sure that it is possible to get possessed by going to a trinitarian church. Where do you think twi got half its people? "
Half of twi's people were possessed people who came possessed from trinitarian churches?
Interesting how it's only "trinitarian churches" that are a risk for getting possessed, here. Other cults, no. Groups demanding blind loyalty, no. Actual occult practices, no. Actual devil/demon worship, no. No worries about practicing Satanists, but that Franciscan Order RCC that's feeding the hungry and helping people get jobs and housing are hazardous to your spiritual health!
Where did I say "only"? Also...quote: Half of twi's people were possessed people who came possessed from trinitarian churches? - That's not what I posted. All you ever do is misrepresent anything you don't like. I don't have to give you a straight answer. (Prov. 26:4 - answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him)
Hey, Waysider? I guess you succeeded in luring me into an argument after all.
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