I did a little, but could find no tab that said "Who's REALLY in charge here."
I think they still want that a bit of a secret, if it's Craig on zoom.
But I cant find the puppet board members either.
I like getting in touch with them ever several years. At some point I think I can help them.
BTW, after 41 years in business and seeing about 600 different companies, I know that it is OFTEN the case in business where the person REALLY in charge wants to keep that info from easy public access. It's to avoid accountability, and other reasons.
I hope you figured out that the answer to your original question was at the page I supplied the link to for you.
I did a little, but could find no tab that said "Who's REALLY in charge here."
I think they still want that a bit of a secret, if it's Craig on zoom.
But I cant find the puppet board members either.
I like getting in touch with them ever several years. At some point I think I can help them.
BTW, after 41 years in business and seeing about 600 different companies, I know that it is OFTEN the case in business where the person REALLY in charge wants to keep that info from easy public access. It's to avoid accountability, and other reasons.
No, when Craig was ousted he was really ousted. Rosalie was firmly in control all the years she was on the BOD and the silent partner was Donna Martindale. With Rosalie gone they probably just marginalized Donna and she may have lost her influence. Rosalie was voted off the board by Vern, Bill, and John with Vern leading the charge. I mean no offence by what I am about to say to you: You are delusional if you think they will ever want your help. The do not and they will not. They are a closed corporation who only promote from the ranks of the way corps and they are extremely political amongst themselves, especially at the cabinet, officer, director level. They have it all figured out and are extremely arrogant even to the point of demanding special treatment on the most insignificant matters. I was told once by John Rupp that there was YEARS of accumulated wisdom at the diretor level. Im sure a lot of that wisdom comes from their attorneys, BakerHostettler. Rosalie kept herself in the background mostly because she was trying to lose the stigma of the way international being a cult. She started delegating teaching and other public responsibilites because one of the main aspects of a cult is having a central, charismatic leader. She certainly wasn't charismatic by nature and was boring as dry white toast when she spoke publicly, but that's a different matter altogether. Make no mistake, until she was voted off the board she was in charge, and donna was right there with her.
On another note, if it werent for the Allen, and other lawsuits that happened around the year 2000 there would have been no changes. Basically an abusive cult got sued by a ....ed off husband who had his wife victimized by a sexual predator - lloyd craig martindale who learned the tricks of the trade from vistor paul wierwille. In response to the Allen lawsuit, which would have put them out of existance if they hadn't quietly settled...aka...gave them a large sum of money to go away...the way international changed it' many of it's practices as they pertain to paid staff to match human resource and other applicable laws. You know, things like not taking abundant sharing money and spending it for personal use, the board of directors personal use. Not only that but they quit that whole private innurement thing where they were using money/resources that was supposed to be devoted to charitable purposes and using it for private purposes. One example is Rosalie started actually paying to have the grounds department cut her grass instead of having them do it for free. They grudgingly made all the changes they had to for survival.
So if you would like to think that you can help them at some point, that certainly is your privelege.
I did a little, but could find no tab that said "Who's REALLY in charge here."
I think they still want that a bit of a secret, if it's Craig on zoom.
But I cant find the puppet board members either.
I like getting in touch with them ever several years. At some point I think I can help them.
BTW, after 41 years in business and seeing about 600 different companies, I know that it is OFTEN the case in business where the person REALLY in charge wants to keep that info from easy public access. It's to avoid accountability, and other reasons.
“All through my life I've had this strange unaccountable feeling that something was going on in the world, something big, even sinister, and no one would tell me what it was."
"No," said the old man, "that's just perfectly normal paranoia. Everyone in the Universe has that."
"Everyone?" said Arthur.
"Well, if everyone has that perhaps it means something!
Perhaps somewhere outside the Universe we know..."
"Maybe. Who cares?" said Slartibartfast before Arthur got too excited. "Perhaps I'm old and tired," he continued, "but I always think that the chances of finding what out really is going on are so absurdly remote that the only thing to do is to say hang the sense of it and just keep yourself occupied.”
No, when Craig was ousted he was really ousted. Rosalie was firmly in control all the years she was on the BOD and the silent partner was Donna Martindale. With Rosalie gone they probably just marginalized Donna and she may have lost her influence. Rosalie was voted off the board by Vern, Bill, and John with Vern leading the charge. I mean no offence by what I am about to say to you: You are delusional if you think they will ever want your help. The do not and they will not. They are a closed corporation who only promote from the ranks of the way corps and they are extremely political amongst themselves, especially at the cabinet, officer, director level. They have it all figured out and are extremely arrogant even to the point of demanding special treatment on the most insignificant matters. I was told once by John Rupp that there was YEARS of accumulated wisdom at the diretor level. Im sure a lot of that wisdom comes from their attorneys, BakerHostettler. Rosalie kept herself in the background mostly because she was trying to lose the stigma of the way international being a cult. She started delegating teaching and other public responsibilites because one of the main aspects of a cult is having a central, charismatic leader. She certainly wasn't charismatic by nature and was boring as dry white toast when she spoke publicly, but that's a different matter altogether. Make no mistake, until she was voted off the board she was in charge, and donna was right there with her.
On another note, if it werent for the Allen, and other lawsuits that happened around the year 2000 there would have been no changes. Basically an abusive cult got sued by a ....ed off husband who had his wife victimized by a sexual predator - lloyd craig martindale who learned the tricks of the trade from vistor paul wierwille. In response to the Allen lawsuit, which would have put them out of existance if they hadn't quietly settled...aka...gave them a large sum of money to go away...the way international changed it' many of it's practices as they pertain to paid staff to match human resource and other applicable laws. You know, things like not taking abundant sharing money and spending it for personal use, the board of directors personal use. Not only that but they quit that whole private innurement thing where they were using money/resources that was supposed to be devoted to charitable purposes and using it for private purposes. One example is Rosalie started actually paying to have the grounds department cut her grass instead of having them do it for free. They grudgingly made all the changes they had to for survival.
So if you would like to think that you can help them at some point, that certainly is your privelege.
I'm not holding my breath, but things odd things happen at times. I just want to be ready.
“All through my life I've had this strange unaccountable feeling that something was going on in the world, something big, even sinister, and no one would tell me what it was."
"No," said the old man, "that's just perfectly normal paranoia. Everyone in the Universe has that."
"Everyone?" said Arthur.
"Well, if everyone has that perhaps it means something!
Perhaps somewhere outside the Universe we know..."
"Maybe. Who cares?" said Slartibartfast before Arthur got too excited. "Perhaps I'm old and tired," he continued, "but I always think that the chances of finding what out really is going on are so absurdly remote that the only thing to do is to say hang the sense of it and just keep yourself occupied.”
― Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
Wow! That Douglas Adams really NAILED IT, on how things really are! :)
Wow! That Douglas Adams really NAILED IT, on how things really are! :)
"[...] These creatures you call mice, you see, they are not quite as they appear. They are merely the protrusion into our dimension of vast hyperintelligent pandimensional beings. The whole business with the cheese and the squeaking is just a front."
Is it just semantics that you cannot figure out who are currently in charge at TWI? You call them the Board of Trustees and the Way calls them the Board of Directors on their web page. Same difference, no?
"Perhaps I'm old and tired," he continued, "but I always think that the chances of finding what out really is going on are so absurdly remote that the only thing to do is to say hang the sense of it and just keep yourself occupied.”
I have to disagree with this statement. Keeping yourself occupied is good I suppose, but I would say the chances of knowing, finding out, is better than this old guy has put forth. From one old tired person to another. And knowing what I don't know is still knowing, knowing what it's not is still knowing. Just getting a little bit of a glimpse of "the universe" brings more questions as well as some answers. More "universe" comes as it happens.
Rosalie was voted off the board by Vern, Bill, and John with Vern leading the charge. I mean no offence by what I am about to say to you: You are delusional if you think they will ever want your help. The do not and they will not. They are a closed corporation who only promote from the ranks of the way corps and they are extremely political amongst themselves, especially at the cabinet, officer, director level. They have it all figured out and are extremely arrogant even to the point of demanding special treatment on the most insignificant matters. I was told once by John Rupp that there was YEARS of accumulated wisdom at the diretor level. Im sure a lot of that wisdom comes from their attorneys, BakerHostettler. Rosalie kept herself in the background mostly because she was trying to lose the stigma of the way international being a cult. She started delegating teaching and other public responsibilities because one of the main aspects of a cult is having a central, charismatic leader. She certainly wasn't charismatic by nature and was boring as dry white toast when she spoke publicly, but that's a different matter altogether. Make no mistake, until she was voted off the board she was in charge, and donna was right there with her.
OMG!
One of the main aspects of a cult, regarding your point that I highlighted, is that the leader is a malignant narcissist. Of course, I'm not contradicting you, just getting a bit more specific. And in case you haven't seen the thread I just linked, I also embedded this YouTube video which I had put in that thread.
Another key aspect of cults is that they are "high demand" organizations. In that regard, Rosalie can never shake the cult label, IMO.
The first five minutes and 40 seconds of this video presents a good overview of what makes a cult a cult. The interview subject is Rick Alan Ross, author of the book, Cults Inside Out. It has clearly been established that TWI demands, and has demanded since its inception, people tithe and then some. If they don't they are put in fear of losing God's protection. Then there was the sexual demands of the first two presidents. Let's not forget the as near as possible to free labor that the cult has gotten from the way corpse.
Oh, and lets not lose sight of the demand from leaders at all levels to account for one's time down to the minute (15 minute?) increments.
Tying this back to the thread topic, PLAF was ALL about Wierwille defining what was and is right for twi adherents.
I don't know if Vern is one of those. I knew him long ago, not well, and he was a really nice chap, with nothing of the narcissist about him. Quite the opposite, it seemed.
(Jill! I just remembered his wife's name). He'd recently become engaged to Jill, I think; and she was a nice woman. Sad to see her as a sort of wooden doll on their "Staff" video.
Can Vern - or Jill - change to become narcissists? I don't think so.
Though I do suppose he could be swept up by TWI authoritarianism. "I said it, I'm the boss, so you just do it."
I don't know if Vern is one of those. I knew him long ago, not well, and he was a really nice chap, with nothing of the narcissist about him. Quite the opposite, it seemed.
(Jill! I just remembered his wife's name). He'd recently become engaged to Jill, I think; and she was a nice woman. Sad to see her as a sort of wooden doll on their "Staff" video.
Can Vern - or Jill - change to become narcissists? I don't think so.
Though I do suppose he could be swept up by TWI authoritarianism. "I said it, I'm the boss, so you just do it."
I don't doubt your assessment/impression of Vern or Jill.
However, TWI undoubtedly is and has been a cult. Can they ever "grow out of it," as in become a religious group not demanding or exacting high demands of adherents? I don't know, but suppose it's possible.
As OldSkool said (above) in a reply to Mike,
14 hours ago, OldSkool said:
You are delusional if you think they will ever want your help. The do not and they will not. They are a closed corporation who only promote from the ranks of the way corps and they are extremely political amongst themselves, especially at the cabinet, officer, director level. They have it all figured out and are extremely arrogant even to the point of demanding special treatment on the most insignificant matters. I was told once by John Rupp that there was YEARS of accumulated wisdom at the director level.
I've studied institutions and organizations some. I think of MIT professor of management, Peter Senge. I read his book The Fifth Disciple: the Art & Practice of the Learning Organization in the 1990s. The most recent edition is dated 2010. Senge's basic premise is that any organization that can break the bonds of arrogance like what OldSkool described can and must be willing to change. That takes immense humility.
I might believe twi can do that... if I ever see it. But there is SOOOOOO much of Wierwille's "DNA" in the organization I can only default to believe it is all but impossible for them.
Besides reading Senge's really great book, I advocated institutional change in public schools as my children were growing up and during the 1990s when I worked in the largest state government agency in AZ as an accountant.
For TWI to change its stripes IMO is the kind of thing Jesus referred to when he talked about faith moving mountains.
"[...] These creatures you call mice, you see, they are not quite as they appear. They are merely the protrusion into our dimension of vast hyperintelligent pandimensional beings. The whole business with the cheese and the squeaking is just a front."
8 hours ago, Bolshevik said:
That's why I hate them mieces to pieces!
BTW, my hitchiker comment was a Godel's Theorem joke.
I don't doubt your assessment/impression of Vern or Jill.
However, TWI undoubtedly is and has been a cult. Can they ever "grow out of it," as in become a religious group not demanding or exacting high demands of adherents? I don't know, but suppose it's possible.
Wot? Isn't TWI now the softer, gentler, organisation (per RFR)?
TWI changes people - brings out the worst in them. People don't change TWI.
Lawyers have had a go at changing TWI, but they're only tinkering round the edges. Not the core beliefs or structural arrangements.
You can google more. So much yackity smackity about FEAR and constantly needing to bring people in and then thinking of new ways label and divide them or just kick them out.
I have to disagree with this statement. Keeping yourself occupied is good I suppose, but I would say the chances of knowing, finding out, is better than this old guy has put forth. From one old tired person to another. And knowing what I don't know is still knowing, knowing what it's not is still knowing. Just getting a little bit of a glimpse of "the universe" brings more questions as well as some answers. More "universe" comes as it happens.
You're right. While quite informative, Mr. Slartibartfast can be bit of a downer at times. Staying ahead of the monotony would be a better skill.
Another thing to consider that we were taught is that "Fear ruins more men's ministry than anything else."
Yep, and thats total BS. That is probably based on the law of believing, which traces it's roots back to the the new thought metaphysics movement made popular by Phineas Parkhurst Quimby then traces to Mary Eddy Baker (Christian Science Founder) and then to E.W. Kenyon and then to Wierwille. If you wannta get into it on this false doctrine then lets head over to doctrinal. But that quote "Fear ruins more men's ministry than anything else" is BS.
You wanna know what likely ruings more men's ministries? Love of money, raw lust, and greed. If fear were such an all emcompassing factor that can just ruin lives then why wasn't it listed in the bible where the devil tempted Jesus?
- Create bread out of stones to relieve his own hunger (not keeping God as his number one source of sustenance)
- Leap from a pinnacle and rely on angels to break his fall. (tempting God, when God cannot be tempted)
- Kneel before Satan in return for all the kingdoms of the world. (worship the devil and serve him)
Anywho, I'm skating in thin ice here and don't want to derail this topic with doctrinal issues. I am happy to debate the law of believing in-depth. It's already been covered on GSC to the max anyway.
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cman
Thinking back at some of the places I worked, fear was used a lot. Like fear of getting fired or doing something the wrong way, or somehow shamed. TWI went further than that, trying to get deep in you
cman
Funny he said that in the class but promoted fear through the way tree, turning the tree upside down and killing the leaves. As Bolshevik said somewhere back a few posts, fear was institutionalized.
OldSkool
Yep, and thats total BS. That is probably based on the law of believing, which traces it's roots back to the the new thought metaphysics movement made popular by Phineas Parkhurst Quimby then traces t
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Rocky
I hope you figured out that the answer to your original question was at the page I supplied the link to for you.
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OldSkool
No, when Craig was ousted he was really ousted. Rosalie was firmly in control all the years she was on the BOD and the silent partner was Donna Martindale. With Rosalie gone they probably just marginalized Donna and she may have lost her influence. Rosalie was voted off the board by Vern, Bill, and John with Vern leading the charge. I mean no offence by what I am about to say to you: You are delusional if you think they will ever want your help. The do not and they will not. They are a closed corporation who only promote from the ranks of the way corps and they are extremely political amongst themselves, especially at the cabinet, officer, director level. They have it all figured out and are extremely arrogant even to the point of demanding special treatment on the most insignificant matters. I was told once by John Rupp that there was YEARS of accumulated wisdom at the diretor level. Im sure a lot of that wisdom comes from their attorneys, BakerHostettler. Rosalie kept herself in the background mostly because she was trying to lose the stigma of the way international being a cult. She started delegating teaching and other public responsibilites because one of the main aspects of a cult is having a central, charismatic leader. She certainly wasn't charismatic by nature and was boring as dry white toast when she spoke publicly, but that's a different matter altogether. Make no mistake, until she was voted off the board she was in charge, and donna was right there with her.
On another note, if it werent for the Allen, and other lawsuits that happened around the year 2000 there would have been no changes. Basically an abusive cult got sued by a ....ed off husband who had his wife victimized by a sexual predator - lloyd craig martindale who learned the tricks of the trade from vistor paul wierwille. In response to the Allen lawsuit, which would have put them out of existance if they hadn't quietly settled...aka...gave them a large sum of money to go away...the way international changed it' many of it's practices as they pertain to paid staff to match human resource and other applicable laws. You know, things like not taking abundant sharing money and spending it for personal use, the board of directors personal use. Not only that but they quit that whole private innurement thing where they were using money/resources that was supposed to be devoted to charitable purposes and using it for private purposes. One example is Rosalie started actually paying to have the grounds department cut her grass instead of having them do it for free. They grudgingly made all the changes they had to for survival.
So if you would like to think that you can help them at some point, that certainly is your privelege.
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Bolshevik
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Mike
I'm not holding my breath, but things odd things happen at times. I just want to be ready.
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Mike
I figured out your hint to that, but was unsuccessful in finding them on the page. I have eye issues.
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Mike
Wow! That Douglas Adams really NAILED IT, on how things really are! :)
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Bolshevik
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Bolshevik
Wait . . . there's no Board of Trustees.
Sneaky Mike.
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Stayed Too Long
Mike,
Is it just semantics that you cannot figure out who are currently in charge at TWI? You call them the Board of Trustees and the Way calls them the Board of Directors on their web page. Same difference, no?
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Rocky
Bottom of the page. OTC Reading glasses are inexpensive. All of us old farts have eye issues.
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cman
I have to disagree with this statement. Keeping yourself occupied is good I suppose, but I would say the chances of knowing, finding out, is better than this old guy has put forth. From one old tired person to another. And knowing what I don't know is still knowing, knowing what it's not is still knowing. Just getting a little bit of a glimpse of "the universe" brings more questions as well as some answers. More "universe" comes as it happens.
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Rocky
OMG!
One of the main aspects of a cult, regarding your point that I highlighted, is that the leader is a malignant narcissist. Of course, I'm not contradicting you, just getting a bit more specific. And in case you haven't seen the thread I just linked, I also embedded this YouTube video which I had put in that thread.
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Rocky
Another key aspect of cults is that they are "high demand" organizations. In that regard, Rosalie can never shake the cult label, IMO.
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Rocky
The first five minutes and 40 seconds of this video presents a good overview of what makes a cult a cult. The interview subject is Rick Alan Ross, author of the book, Cults Inside Out. It has clearly been established that TWI demands, and has demanded since its inception, people tithe and then some. If they don't they are put in fear of losing God's protection. Then there was the sexual demands of the first two presidents. Let's not forget the as near as possible to free labor that the cult has gotten from the way corpse.
Oh, and lets not lose sight of the demand from leaders at all levels to account for one's time down to the minute (15 minute?) increments.
Tying this back to the thread topic, PLAF was ALL about Wierwille defining what was and is right for twi adherents.
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Twinky
I don't know if Vern is one of those. I knew him long ago, not well, and he was a really nice chap, with nothing of the narcissist about him. Quite the opposite, it seemed.
(Jill! I just remembered his wife's name). He'd recently become engaged to Jill, I think; and she was a nice woman. Sad to see her as a sort of wooden doll on their "Staff" video.
Can Vern - or Jill - change to become narcissists? I don't think so.
Though I do suppose he could be swept up by TWI authoritarianism. "I said it, I'm the boss, so you just do it."
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Rocky
I don't doubt your assessment/impression of Vern or Jill.
However, TWI undoubtedly is and has been a cult. Can they ever "grow out of it," as in become a religious group not demanding or exacting high demands of adherents? I don't know, but suppose it's possible.
As OldSkool said (above) in a reply to Mike,
I've studied institutions and organizations some. I think of MIT professor of management, Peter Senge. I read his book The Fifth Disciple: the Art & Practice of the Learning Organization in the 1990s. The most recent edition is dated 2010. Senge's basic premise is that any organization that can break the bonds of arrogance like what OldSkool described can and must be willing to change. That takes immense humility.
I might believe twi can do that... if I ever see it. But there is SOOOOOO much of Wierwille's "DNA" in the organization I can only default to believe it is all but impossible for them.
Besides reading Senge's really great book, I advocated institutional change in public schools as my children were growing up and during the 1990s when I worked in the largest state government agency in AZ as an accountant.
For TWI to change its stripes IMO is the kind of thing Jesus referred to when he talked about faith moving mountains.
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Mike
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Mike
EXACTLY!
Edited by MikeAnother thing to consider that we were taught is that "Fear ruins more men's ministry than anything else."
I have no doubt that fear is what has made these people monsters. When the fear is removed, miracles can happen.
Still another thing we were taught was "Each one win one." I'm only thinking of one person at a time, not the whole organization... yet.
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Twinky
Wot? Isn't TWI now the softer, gentler, organisation (per RFR)?
TWI changes people - brings out the worst in them. People don't change TWI.
Lawyers have had a go at changing TWI, but they're only tinkering round the edges. Not the core beliefs or structural arrangements.
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waysider
I just saw a pig fly past my window.
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Bolshevik
https://psych2go.net/10-things-narcissists-fear/
https://www.longdom.org/open-access/narcissistic-mortification-shame-and-fear-63949.html
You can google more. So much yackity smackity about FEAR and constantly needing to bring people in and then thinking of new ways label and divide them or just kick them out.
Also, 42.
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T-Bone
another consideration is what observing human nature has taught us:
fear of being found out may have been the only reason a “minister” / predator kept his “inner-monster” on a leash.
Edited by T-Boneexpletively dull
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Bolshevik
You're right. While quite informative, Mr. Slartibartfast can be bit of a downer at times. Staying ahead of the monotony would be a better skill.
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OldSkool
Yep, and thats total BS. That is probably based on the law of believing, which traces it's roots back to the the new thought metaphysics movement made popular by Phineas Parkhurst Quimby then traces to Mary Eddy Baker (Christian Science Founder) and then to E.W. Kenyon and then to Wierwille. If you wannta get into it on this false doctrine then lets head over to doctrinal. But that quote "Fear ruins more men's ministry than anything else" is BS.
You wanna know what likely ruings more men's ministries? Love of money, raw lust, and greed. If fear were such an all emcompassing factor that can just ruin lives then why wasn't it listed in the bible where the devil tempted Jesus?
- Create bread out of stones to relieve his own hunger (not keeping God as his number one source of sustenance)
- Leap from a pinnacle and rely on angels to break his fall. (tempting God, when God cannot be tempted)
- Kneel before Satan in return for all the kingdoms of the world. (worship the devil and serve him)
Anywho, I'm skating in thin ice here and don't want to derail this topic with doctrinal issues. I am happy to debate the law of believing in-depth. It's already been covered on GSC to the max anyway.
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