Johniam:
""I'm sure that it is possible to get possessed by going to a trinitarian church. Where do you think twi got half its people? "
WordWolf:
"Half of twi's people were possessed people who came possessed from trinitarian churches? "
WordWolf:
"Interesting how it's only "trinitarian churches" that are a risk for getting possessed, here. Other cults, no. Groups demanding blind loyalty, no. Actual occult practices, no. Actual devil/demon worship, no. No worries about practicing Satanists, but that Franciscan Order RCC that's feeding the hungry and helping people get jobs and housing are hazardous to your spiritual health!"
///////////////////////////////////////////////////
Eventually, John responded to that wirh:
"Where did I say "only"? Also...quote: Half of twi's people were possessed people who came possessed from trinitarian churches? - That's not what I posted. All you ever do is misrepresent anything you don't like."
WW responds: [Actually, that's right out of vpw's playbook. Instead of saying things outright, make implications to misdirect people. IMPLY something, then deny you ever actually said it because you left it by implication. However, the rest of us know that what an average person is supposed to get from what you posted is the idea you wanted to express-
that Roman Catholics get possessed all the time because they're Trinitarians-
and that patting yourself on the back for not posting that phrase in exactly those words doesn't mean you've fooled the rest of us. When asked for a clarification, you flat-out refused.]
John:
"I don't have to give you a straight answer. "
WW answers: [No, you don't have to communicate clearly at all with anyone. That doesn't mean you've FOOLED anyone, but you don't have to let your yeah be yeah nor your nay be nay. People who actually care about the Bible might find that a problem, however.]
Johniam:
"You could get possessed anywhere. Jack the Ripper was from the royal family. You don't think he was possessed? You could be raised in Barbie's dream house and still get possessed. "
WW:
"Ah, but you didn't mention ANYTHING else until called on it. But places teaching Christ as best they can are certainly hard ground to try to get people possessed, rather than, say, some kid listening to death metal and torturing animals. "
Johniam:
"We learned in the 'dealing with the adversary' class that the devil has 4 fronts. 4 ways of disseminating info to us.
1) society 2) religion (source of the trinity, wink, wink) 3 other people and 4) ourselves."
WW:
"Those categories are highly arbitrary- Categories 1 and 2 overlap, since religion is in society. Categories 1 and 2 overlap in Category 3, because people don't exist apart from society. Finally, we disseminate information to OURSELVES?
Rather than just parroting back what someone taught you, really think about it sometime."
Johniam:
"The trinity is another god."
WW:
"The Trinity is how your fellow Christians- for whom Christ died- try to understand God and Christ and serve both. Ganesha is "another god." Odin is "another god." Zeus is "another god."
Johniam:
" VP did, in advanced class 79, make the distinction between being adamant about the trinity and not being adamant, saying that those who were adamant were possessed. I met people like that. Creeeeepeeeee! "
WW:
"News flash- anyone really adamant about ANYTHING, whose life revolves around ANYTHING- religious, poltical, etc, is CREEPY (providing you're not in full 100% agreement with them.) You don't have to be possessed to be creepy, any more than you have to be possessed to be a creep. "
Johniam;
""Just like the adamant trinitarian, you must think you are smarter than God if you disagree."
WW;
"[Where did I disagree with that? Oh, that's right- in your imagination I disagreed with that. I didn't say the doctrine of the Trinity was CORRECT, nor did I imply it. On a different subject, is there a verse that says that if you're a Trinitarian, "you must think you are smarter than God"? There's plenty of Trinitarians who are sure that God is amazingly smarter than them, and believe in the Trinity. Pope Francis seems to be a humble man of compassion and piety, very much the kind of Christian to minister to the sick and poor and so on- and he's a Trinitarian and quite certain of his position. According to your previous post, adamant Trinitarians are supposedly possessed. (vpw said it, that settles it...) ]
Johniam:
"You claim you are "trying to understand God"???? Not trying very hard. God says thou shalt have NO OTHER GODS before Him. What part of no other Gods don't you understand??? "
Johniam;
"John 8:12 - the pharisees therefore said unto him, thou bearest record of thyself, thy record is not true.
In other words, hey, Jesus, that's just your opinion. Same self righteous tone as in WWs and Waysider's last posts."
WW:
[It's fascinating when vpw apologists resort both to strawmen and insults when replying to me. They can't refute my points, so they change the subject and pretend they did refute them. In this case, pointing out blatant errors in vpw's classes- which I did= was equated with Pharisees dismissing Jesus. Wow, equating Jesus' in-person teaching with vpw's classes! That's amazing.]
Johniam:
"I recall one encounter with a person who was adamant about the trinity. I tried to point out 1 Tim 1:5, one God...one mediator between God and men...the man Christ Jesus. Not the God/man, the man. The idiot came back with...a mediator has to be fully partaker of both. Not correct. A mediator, by definition, is a third party, agreed on by the other 2 parties to resolve a dispute. For example, in major league baseball at times, a player will demand X amount of money, but the team says no, we'll give you less than X. So a mediator is hired to resolve the dispute. The mediator in this case is called an arbitrator. This arbitrator is not a player or an owner. He/she cannot be full or any percent partaker of either. If he/she was, it would be a conflict of interests. "
WW:
[I'd certainly agree that a mediator is supposed to be impartial, and thus neither of the parties between whom he is mediating, and not a member of EITHER party or of BOTH parties. The concept of the conflict of interest isn't terribly modern even if the term is modern. (The same is true of power of attorney- an ancient concept with a modern name.]
Johniam:
"Jesus is not any percent partaker of God. He is a man, but all other humans are sinners. Jesus was tempted in all points, yet without sin (Heb 4:15). (Pssst...God cannot be tempted Jas 1:13) This is the ONLY thing which qualifies Jesus to be a mediator between God and man. "
WW:
[I'd agree, obviously, that Hebrews 4:15 and James 1:!3 contrast Jesus with God quite neatly- God CANNOT be tempted, and Jesus WAS tempted, therefore, at the very least, they can't be the same being and are not the same being.]
Johniam:
"Just like the adamant trinitarian, you must think you are smarter than God if you disagree."
WW:
[Where did I disagree with that? Oh, that's right- in your imagination I disagreed with that. I didn't say the doctrine of the Trinity was CORRECT, nor did I imply it.
On a different subject, is there a verse that says that if you're a Trinitarian, "you must think you are smarter than God"? There's plenty of Trinitarians who are sure that God is amazingly smarter than them, and believe in the Trinity. Pope Francis seems to be a humble man of compassion and piety, very much the kind of Christian to minister to the sick and poor and so on- and he's a Trinitarian and quite certain of his position. According to your previous post, adamant Trinitarians are supposedly possessed. (vpw said it, that settles it...)"]
Johniam:
"You claim you are "trying to understand God"???? Not trying very hard. God says thou shalt have NO OTHER GODS before Him. What part of no other Gods don't you understand??? "
WW;
{b][Poor reading comprehension is showing here. I posted that the Trinitarians are trying to understand God. I never even suggested I agreed with their conclusions. I disagree with your unsupported assertion that people who believe in the Trinity are believing in "other gods." I already posted about that- Zeus, Ganesha and Odin are "other gods." Trinitarians are worshiping the God of the Old Testament and the New Testament, they pray in Jesus' name, they try to follow Jesus' example, and they show "Christian morality" in their behavior often. If they're incorrect in how they view Jesus' relation to his Father, they understand behaving like they were told to behave. They're the ones who put forth a hand of compassion to help others. I've seen plenty of non-Trinitarians who think the only important behavior is to condemn Trinitarians for errant doctrine, and care nothing about helping others. I'm sure you're certain it's far more important to eschew the Trinity than to help others, and I'm certain the opposite is true. God's tendency to answer the prayers of Trinitarians and Unitarians with identical alacrity seem the strongest statement on how God feels about it. If it was that important, one side would get their prayers answered, and the other would get lots of visions about how they'd have to mend their doctrine before He'd answer. The Trinitarians, for whom Christ died, are just as sincere and devout as you- I'd argue a number are moreso. I'm not prepared to see them do the right thing and get prayers answered, and still condemn them for errant doctrine. If you are, then perhaps it's really YOU that think you're smarter than God, since you sound like you'd take Him to task for answering their prayers as fast as He answers yours. Or, more to the point, you may think vpw was smarter than God, if adhering to his doctrine means God's off the ball for answering the prayers of the Trinitarians.
If you actually believed I thought I was smarter than God, or even in His ballpark, it would demonstrate an inability to understand my posts. I'm not convinced that's a genuine conclusion based on what I've posted rather than what you've imagined I've posted (like imaging I was talking about myself when I said "the Trinitarians."][/b]
Wow, I looked away for a few days, and come back to same-old same-old.
I was intrigued by Mike's claim that he has encountered thousands of PFAL grads who want to know more. He must live in a football stadium, or similar.
I wonder how many of these enlightened (?) people he has actually met, actually encountered - in person, in the flesh, as human beings - and not as online whoevers? Might a dozen be a good estimate? Or would that too be an over-estimate?
My city has a population of about 80,000. I doubt whether I have met even a tenth of them, even fleetingly, and certainly not enough to have deep conversations about theological issues.
I really had no idea that Mike had such a huge circle of friends - nay, deep conversational companions, with whom he can freely discuss PFAL. And that's without the casuals that he get into conversation with, and the people at the dance place he attends (if you're dancing, you're not talking). I got the idea he was a little reclusive. Well done, Mike! You've really taken on the boldness that PFAL has imbued you with.
I was specifically avoiding mentioning him to avoid debate, but I see him in the phrase I used "ministry leaders"
First John Epistle told me long ago that VPW was no goodie goodie. He said it too, many times, many ways.
I'm sure glad you folks aren't anybody's final judge. You all need a chill pill sometimes I think. But I;m not a doctor, I just look like one on the radio.
This is a rephrase of the "ya but Doc is the one who put it all together".
Don't care what he did. Don't care how he got there. The end justifies the means. . . . . And to what end???
Heard this so many times at HQ . . . (yes YOU . . . and you . . . and you too)
It's a posturing, silly attempt at transcending the issue.
You are a willing participant in VPW's malignant shared fantasy.
Wow, I looked away for a few days, and come back to same-old same-old.
I was intrigued by Mike's claim that he has encountered thousands of PFAL grads who want to know more. He must live in a football stadium, or similar.
I wonder how many of these enlightened (?) people he has actually met, actually encountered - in person, in the flesh, as human beings - and not as online whoevers? Might a dozen be a good estimate? Or would that too be an over-estimate?
My city has a population of about 80,000. I doubt whether I have met even a tenth of them, even fleetingly, and certainly not enough to have deep conversations about theological issues.
I really had no idea that Mike had such a huge circle of friends - nay, deep conversational companions, with whom he can freely discuss PFAL. And that's without the casuals that he get into conversation with, and the people at the dance place he attends (if you're dancing, you're not talking). I got the idea he was a little reclusive. Well done, Mike! You've really taken on the boldness that PFAL has imbued you with.
It is not my circle of friends I was referring to.
The vast majority of my friends now are Deadheads, musicians of all sorts, and a spectrum of brain scientists, ranging from well informed amateur such as me, to serious students of the brain, psychology, and philosophy; then grad students and professors in neuroscience.
What I was referring to is the growing number of Facebook groups that are PFAL friendly. A number of current members of TWI have joined it. From them I saw posted pictures of the PFAL Camp this thread started with. Then they had an AC Camp.
Why does everyone WANT to think I'm BSing? I saw these many groups spring up in the past 5 or so years. Some have a lot of members? How many? Go look yourselves.
I think that all of you have finished exposing the worst of TWI. Many out there only want to think of the great benefits they received. Whenever I mention GreasSpot to them they are SO disinterested in getting all negative, so I learned to not mention this place.
I think you all need some closure, after this many decades.
You did the job you felt urged to do. Now you just seem to be helping each other maintain a great state of negativity.
Why not turn to those things that are right in your lives and that generate GREAT JOY in your lives? I refuse to believe your lives are over or incapable of finally putting to rest the negatives of the past.
Take what you have right in you heads about the gentle, true, loving God and MAGNIFY it for some other people.
How many young people are you teaching the goodness of God to? Are THEY interested in all the negativity that you have saturated your lives with? I doubt that more than the numbers you doubt from me.
Why not turn to those things that are right in your lives and that generate GREAT JOY in your lives?
Mike, I have shared a number of great positives in my life, that generate great joy - including on this thread.
Have you acknowledged even one of them? No. And no surprise there.
Do you look at other threads on this site? There are active threads in Open and in the Music one. Do you follow any of those? You said you wanted to engage in different ways. Well, go ahead. Engage.
I think that all of you have finished exposing the worst of TWI.
Many out there only want to think of the great benefits they received. Whenever I mention GreasSpot to them they are SO disinterested in getting all negative, so I learned to not mention this place.
I think you all need some closure, after this many decades.
You did the job you felt urged to do. Now you just seem to be helping each other maintain a great state of negativity.
Why not turn to those things that are right in your lives and that generate GREAT JOY in your lives? I refuse to believe your lives are over or incapable of finally putting to rest the negatives of the past.
Take what you have right in you heads about the gentle, true, loving God and MAGNIFY it for some other people.
How many young people are you teaching the goodness of God to? Are THEY interested in all the negativity that you have saturated your lives with? I doubt that more than the numbers you doubt from me.
Mike – you said :“I think that all of you have finished exposing the worst of TWI.”
you make it sound like there's plenty of good that's been ignored...but you mischaracterize what Grease Spot does and you ignore the real problem ...TWI is a cult of personality – that revolves around their delusional narcissistic morally corrupt founder victor paul wierwille; though he has passed away, the life-sucking organization barely survives living on the remnants of his “estate” which was built on a precarious foundation of twisted doctrines, delusions of grandeur, cognitive dissonance and shady practices...
...If there's any good of TWI that should not be ignored it's all the good, honest and kind folks who were or are still in it and think they are involved in a Christian ministry...whether they realize it or not they are being exploited for their dedication, finances, energy, talents, and misplaced faith...
And lest any of you wierwille-defenders get your panties in a wad may I remind you I have consistently kept my focus on actions, things that were said and done, observations, experiences, events, situations. I have never attempted to play God and peer into his heart and speculate on his intentions. I have no doubt that he believed he served God and God's people....that was probably part of his delusion...and considering how much he would publicly criticize just about every other group out there he probably thought his ministry was the one and only genuine Christian ministry.
As the old saying goes “the road to hell is paved with good intentions” - wrong or evil actions are often undertaken with good intentions – and sometimes acting upon good intentions may even have unintended consequences. What are intentions? They are merely guiding principles for our thoughts, attitudes, choices, and actions. Usually our intentions make us feel good about the beliefs we have. But intentions become irrelevant if they are not aligned with actions.
I look at how well wierwille's publicly stated intentions and any mission statements align with Christian ideology. I believe Jesus Christ set forth the two highest priorities for his followers in Matthew 22: 37 – 40 - to love God and love your neighbor as yourself. ..It seems obvious to me that how we treat people matters to God...so it makes sense that we should judge ourselves on how we actually deal with people rather than judging ourselves on why we think we serve God's people... I think it's important to be honest in evaluating our actions to see if they are in tune with our ideology.
...there is a key to proper discernment as described by Jesus Christ in Matthew 7:
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”
I think for the most part many folks in TWI believed it was a genuine Christian organization; and as I already said above - as much as wierwille bad-mouthed other groups he more than likely thought his ministry was the only truly genuine Christian ministry; sadly, with a charismatic delusional narcissist like wierwille at the helm - and even if he had the best of intentions - the organization was doomed to be adrift in a sea of his dark fantasy; having survived this cult experience one of the many lessons I've learned is that unless a ministry or church is truly Christ-centered (in word and deed) – it's just a ship of fools...Jesus provided the key to proper discernment in the parables of Matthew 7 - warning of false prophets who come in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. Jesus said you will recognize them by their fruit; fruit is something you can see; it's something the tree produces; The fruit of one's labor is something one makes from components or raw materials or even by just plagiarizing other people's work, often adulterating their work with his incompetency and twisted viewpoints ; fruit of one's labor is something one causes to happen or brings into existence - like creating the way corps program, the WOW program.
Fruit is not the mission statement or pious platitudes - that's just labeling on products or services...that's just words...The Fair Packaging and Labeling Act , enacted in 1967, directs the Federal Trade Commission and the Food and Drug Administration to issue regulations requiring that all "consumer commodities" be labeled to disclose net contents, identity of commodity, and name and place of business of the product's manufacturer, packer, or distributor...Too bad there's not something like that for religious “commodities” – but then again who would be in charge of overseeing that? What would qualify them to be in charge? I guess that's why it's best to leave it up to each and every individual Christian “consumer” to think deeply on Jesus' criteria and let honesty and conscience be their own guide....
Jesus spoke of these religious charlatans as a diseased tree that bears bad fruit, and every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. He did not say the diseased tree should be healed, salvaged or reformed...
The passages following the bad tree imagery seem to speak to pseudo-Christian groups, led by false prophets and ravenous wolves incognito. Jesus' words particularize who the phonies are within this group – they call Jesus Lord, they talk the talk, they're Bible thumpers but they do not walk the talk – they do not do what the Lord says to do. Ultimately the last nail in the coffin for such hypocrites is when their personal storms come – their lives collapse for they were built on the foundation of a cult leader.
...There was a strange duality during my involvement with an exploitative cult. There I was in a supposedly Christian organization and yet it seemed like their agenda and their way of doing things brought on most of my hardships, frustrations, heartaches and resentment. Since I left I have thought about Psalm 23: 4 many times - “Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me...” Being in TWI was like being in a Twilight-Zone-soap-opera called “Daze of Our Lives”. We were all preoccupied - staying busy with doing “the work of the ministry”, disconnected from reality, and usually in an unfocused state of mind...maybe it could be called the fog of cults - since "brain cloud" was already taken in Joe versus the Volcano
A bizarre soap opera indeed that emphasized the priority of your "spiritual family" - "the household" (translation: those who stood with the "Man of God" / The Way Ministry), contrived interpersonal relationships, with lots of sexual scandals, and emotional and moral conflicts. ..in this cultic subculture mix of good people and some bad apples (certain folks in the hierarchy of wierwille-sycophants) I believe God often helped me through tough times in spite of what some bad people did; on the flip side I also believe God helped me during some tough spots through what some good people did. Hooray for the good folks!
The work of exposing a pseudo-Christian exploitative cult is never done as long as there are potential “customers” out there who could be lured in by their bait.
Another reason that's just as important for sounding the alarm on these religious charlatans is for those poor souls already ensnared in the darkness - a supermassive black hole of wierwille's delusions...I was one of those poor souls...My hope is that manywill wake up - come to their senses - heed Jesus' warnings - and get the hell out of TWI !!!!
I think it's a good approximation for the tone here and the energy, time per day, and years.
Is there good fruit coming out of all these efforts?
Fifteen years ago there was godly fruit coming from some efforts: grad re-connections, PFAL review, and super-PFAL supporters magnet, that helped me intensely. I made all sorts of connections and new friends, many I work the Word and move it to this day. I also think a lot happened to assist people in sorting out the good from the bad they we absorbed.
But my friends and I here chose to focus on the good things, and my blanket judgement of MOST of what happens here is a strong, repetitive re-kindling of past grievances and focus on negatives that happened.
Notice that is NOT a judgement of the people here, just what goes on here. Maybe other forums here are better and lighter. Maybe.
Mike, I have shared a number of great positives in my life, that generate great joy - including on this thread.
Have you acknowledged even one of them? No. And no surprise there.
Do you look at other threads on this site? There are active threads in Open and in the Music one. Do you follow any of those? You said you wanted to engage in different ways. Well, go ahead. Engage.
It's the intensely tone I believe is making your good works less effective.
I think the tone of this being a Mighty Fighter of the Evil Forces is a counterfeit. Any good counterfeit is going to be camouflaged with lots of good.
Hey, that's just my opinion, and we'll someday find out EXACTLY what gets burned away and what is rewarded.
Why does everyone WANT to think I'm BSing? I saw these many groups spring up in the past 5 or so years. Some have a lot of members? How many? Go look yourselves.
Because you overgeneralize, exaggerate, and make easily debunked claims.
YOU can alleviate that problem by being specific and linking to verifiable sources. YOU can count the number of members of such FB groups (they generally say how many members there are) and list the names of the groups.
"Ruminate about PFAL stolen by Doc, a codependent that enables without hesitation, always updating your mind to the whim of the narcissist. But shun the non-believer. Shun shun shuuuun . . . For allowing reality into your shared fantasy will mortify his wounded inner child. And he will be mad at YOU."
It doesn't bother me that any of pfal was taken from someone else.
I do and will point out that pfal was off the mark in many ways, in a positive manner that someone might hear, from the first session through the advanced class and more. I'm glad that GSC is here as a forum to voice these matters. And I am not alone, without these other members, including mike, things would not be said that need to be said.
"What I was referring to is the growing number of Facebook groups that are PFAL friendly. A number of current members of TWI have joined it. From them I saw posted pictures of the PFAL Camp this thread started with. Then they had an AC Camp.
Why does everyone WANT to think I'm BSing? I saw these many groups spring up in the past 5 or so years. Some have a lot of members? How many? Go look yourselves."
{The thing is, Mike, it's not that you're BSíng- because that's intentional. You're honestly mistaken. It's the same as anyone who tries to do statistics with an insufficient background. You're going to end up with the wrong numbers no matter how sincere you are. Facebook groups OVERLAP. If you have 5 groups with the same, OBSCURE interest, they're going to be composed of almost identical member lists. In the case of Facebook extwi groups, there's going to be a LOT of overlap. Further, you'll probably find a bunch of US in some of those lists- because just being signed up for one group doesn't make you a "fan" necessarily. Yes, there's extwi "fans" of their twi experience and pfal and the way corps, but their numbers aren't a fraction of what you'd like to think they are- and yes, they're aging out.]
"I think that all of you have finished exposing the worst of TWI. Many out there only want to think of the great benefits they received. Whenever I mention GreasSpot to them they are SO disinterested in getting all negative, so I learned to not mention this place. "
[A) No, as others already said, there's important light that STILL needs to be shined on things, especially while there's people who insist on whitewashing the worst of so much of it. I'm sure a FEW want ONLY to focus on happy memories from there. We've all discussed them, I've posted about them before- in addition to the bad times. It's PERCEPTION that it's ALL we've talked about here because here is the ONLY place anyone seems to be ALLOWED to talk about the bad times. People trying to hide from the worst of it will avoid us like the plague because they're trying to make nostalgia about a place that had no down side- which only exists in their imaginations and in their scrubbed memories of HALF the story. And that's fewer people than you'd like to admit.(You've supposedly extrapolated THOUSANDS from the handfuls you've communicated with.) ]
"I think you all need some closure, after this many decades.
You did the job you felt urged to do. Now you just seem to be helping each other maintain a great state of negativity.
Why not turn to those things that are right in your lives and that generate GREAT JOY in your lives? I refuse to believe your lives are over or incapable of finally putting to rest the negatives of the past.
Take what you have right in you heads about the gentle, true, loving God and MAGNIFY it for some other people.
How many young people are you teaching the goodness of God to? Are THEY interested in all the negativity that you have saturated your lives with? I doubt that more than the numbers you doubt from me."
[There's this persistent FICTION that exists in your mind and in the minds of a handful of people. To try to make yourselves feel better, you've all imagined that we spend all our lives focused on negative things, that all you know is what you've read on SOME of the posts we've made. Some of us have posted on some of the positive things, but you've skipped over them rather completely. Some of us have started ENTIRE THREADS about them- but since they don't match your fantasy of how dark our lives are, you can't even seem to FIND those threads. ]
It's the intensely tone I believe is making your good works less effective.
I think the tone of this being a Mighty Fighter of the Evil Forces is a counterfeit. Any good counterfeit is going to be camouflaged with lots of good.
Hey, that's just my opinion, and we'll someday find out EXACTLY what gets burned away and what is rewarded.
I have no idea what this post means. "The intensely tone"? "Mighty Fighter of the Evil Forces"?
"Any good counterfeit is going to be camouflaged with lots of good." That sounds straight from the PFAL playbook. Without you even reasoning that actually, that's what TWI attempted. Except that the "lots of good" appears to have evaporated very, very early in the piece.
. . .
I think that all of you have finished exposing the worst of TWI. Many out there only want to think of the great benefits they received. Whenever I mention GreasSpot to them they are SO disinterested in getting all negative, so I learned to not mention this place.
I think you all need some closure, after this many decades.
You did the job you felt urged to do. Now you just seem to be helping each other maintain a great state of negativity.
Why not turn to those things that are right in your lives and that generate GREAT JOY in your lives? I refuse to believe your lives are over or incapable of finally putting to rest the negatives of the past.
. . .
I remember persistently being told to act on the thankfulness of what I've been given and give back. Never got answer as to what I was given but I was still told what I should feel.
The cycle is
1. love-bomb
2. devalue
3. discard
4. hoover
5. Repeat.
People are always going to be aware of the hoover. Attempts will be made to remind folks of the love-bomb phase. Steps 2 and 3 are all in your head.
I assume a flying monkey is unaware of the purpose of any of these steps.
It's the intensely tone I believe is making your good works less effective.
By the way, Mike, if you're ever in the UK you are welcome to come to my church or any of the associated churches, see what we do, spend time with any one of our ministers or staff, ask any questions you want about the work we carry out. I'm sure your practical help would also be welcome in cooking meals, distributing food parcels, StACCtion days (service within the community), sitting with the lonely and dispossessed and chatting to them. Hey, you could even pray with people from time to time.
The church financial accounts are also easily accessible and any questions you want can be asked of our Treasurer about those.
We've found our good works very effective. But come and see !
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cman
Thinking back at some of the places I worked, fear was used a lot. Like fear of getting fired or doing something the wrong way, or somehow shamed. TWI went further than that, trying to get deep in you
cman
Funny he said that in the class but promoted fear through the way tree, turning the tree upside down and killing the leaves. As Bolshevik said somewhere back a few posts, fear was institutionalized.
OldSkool
Yep, and thats total BS. That is probably based on the law of believing, which traces it's roots back to the the new thought metaphysics movement made popular by Phineas Parkhurst Quimby then traces t
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WordWolf
Johniam:
""I'm sure that it is possible to get possessed by going to a trinitarian church. Where do you think twi got half its people? "
WordWolf:
"Half of twi's people were possessed people who came possessed from trinitarian churches? "
WordWolf:
"Interesting how it's only "trinitarian churches" that are a risk for getting possessed, here. Other cults, no. Groups demanding blind loyalty, no. Actual occult practices, no. Actual devil/demon worship, no. No worries about practicing Satanists, but that Franciscan Order RCC that's feeding the hungry and helping people get jobs and housing are hazardous to your spiritual health!"
///////////////////////////////////////////////////
Eventually, John responded to that wirh:
"Where did I say "only"? Also...quote: Half of twi's people were possessed people who came possessed from trinitarian churches? - That's not what I posted. All you ever do is misrepresent anything you don't like."
WW responds:
[Actually, that's right out of vpw's playbook. Instead of saying things outright, make implications to misdirect people. IMPLY something, then deny you ever actually said it because you left it by implication. However, the rest of us know that what an average person is supposed to get from what you posted is the idea you wanted to express-
that Roman Catholics get possessed all the time because they're Trinitarians-
and that patting yourself on the back for not posting that phrase in exactly those words doesn't mean you've fooled the rest of us. When asked for a clarification, you flat-out refused.]
John:
"I don't have to give you a straight answer. "
WW answers:
[No, you don't have to communicate clearly at all with anyone. That doesn't mean you've FOOLED anyone, but you don't have to let your yeah be yeah nor your nay be nay. People who actually care about the Bible might find that a problem, however.]
Johniam:
"You could get possessed anywhere. Jack the Ripper was from the royal family. You don't think he was possessed? You could be raised in Barbie's dream house and still get possessed. "
WW:
"Ah, but you didn't mention ANYTHING else until called on it. But places teaching Christ as best they can are certainly hard ground to try to get people possessed, rather than, say, some kid listening to death metal and torturing animals. "
Johniam:
"We learned in the 'dealing with the adversary' class that the devil has 4 fronts. 4 ways of disseminating info to us.
1) society 2) religion (source of the trinity, wink, wink) 3 other people and 4) ourselves."
WW:
"Those categories are highly arbitrary- Categories 1 and 2 overlap, since religion is in society. Categories 1 and 2 overlap in Category 3, because people don't exist apart from society. Finally, we disseminate information to OURSELVES?
Rather than just parroting back what someone taught you, really think about it sometime."
Johniam:
"The trinity is another god."
WW:
"The Trinity is how your fellow Christians- for whom Christ died- try to understand God and Christ and serve both. Ganesha is "another god." Odin is "another god." Zeus is "another god."
Johniam:
" VP did, in advanced class 79, make the distinction between being adamant about the trinity and not being adamant, saying that those who were adamant were possessed. I met people like that. Creeeeepeeeee! "
WW:
"News flash- anyone really adamant about ANYTHING, whose life revolves around ANYTHING- religious, poltical, etc, is CREEPY (providing you're not in full 100% agreement with them.) You don't have to be possessed to be creepy, any more than you have to be possessed to be a creep. "
Johniam;
""Just like the adamant trinitarian, you must think you are smarter than God if you disagree."
WW;
"[Where did I disagree with that? Oh, that's right- in your imagination I disagreed with that. I didn't say the doctrine of the Trinity was CORRECT, nor did I imply it. On a different subject, is there a verse that says that if you're a Trinitarian, "you must think you are smarter than God"? There's plenty of Trinitarians who are sure that God is amazingly smarter than them, and believe in the Trinity. Pope Francis seems to be a humble man of compassion and piety, very much the kind of Christian to minister to the sick and poor and so on- and he's a Trinitarian and quite certain of his position. According to your previous post, adamant Trinitarians are supposedly possessed. (vpw said it, that settles it...) ]
Johniam:
"You claim you are "trying to understand God"???? Not trying very hard. God says thou shalt have NO OTHER GODS before Him. What part of no other Gods don't you understand??? "
Johniam;
"John 8:12 - the pharisees therefore said unto him, thou bearest record of thyself, thy record is not true.
In other words, hey, Jesus, that's just your opinion. Same self righteous tone as in WWs and Waysider's last posts."
WW:
[It's fascinating when vpw apologists resort both to strawmen and insults when replying to me. They can't refute my points, so they change the subject and pretend they did refute them. In this case, pointing out blatant errors in vpw's classes- which I did= was equated with Pharisees dismissing Jesus. Wow, equating Jesus' in-person teaching with vpw's classes! That's amazing.]
Johniam:
"I recall one encounter with a person who was adamant about the trinity. I tried to point out 1 Tim 1:5, one God...one mediator between God and men...the man Christ Jesus. Not the God/man, the man. The idiot came back with...a mediator has to be fully partaker of both. Not correct. A mediator, by definition, is a third party, agreed on by the other 2 parties to resolve a dispute. For example, in major league baseball at times, a player will demand X amount of money, but the team says no, we'll give you less than X. So a mediator is hired to resolve the dispute. The mediator in this case is called an arbitrator. This arbitrator is not a player or an owner. He/she cannot be full or any percent partaker of either. If he/she was, it would be a conflict of interests. "
WW:
[I'd certainly agree that a mediator is supposed to be impartial, and thus neither of the parties between whom he is mediating, and not a member of EITHER party or of BOTH parties. The concept of the conflict of interest isn't terribly modern even if the term is modern. (The same is true of power of attorney- an ancient concept with a modern name.]
Johniam:
"Jesus is not any percent partaker of God. He is a man, but all other humans are sinners. Jesus was tempted in all points, yet without sin (Heb 4:15). (Pssst...God cannot be tempted Jas 1:13) This is the ONLY thing which qualifies Jesus to be a mediator between God and man. "
WW:
[I'd agree, obviously, that Hebrews 4:15 and James 1:!3 contrast Jesus with God quite neatly- God CANNOT be tempted, and Jesus WAS tempted, therefore, at the very least, they can't be the same being and are not the same being.]
Johniam:
"Just like the adamant trinitarian, you must think you are smarter than God if you disagree."
WW:
[Where did I disagree with that? Oh, that's right- in your imagination I disagreed with that. I didn't say the doctrine of the Trinity was CORRECT, nor did I imply it.
On a different subject, is there a verse that says that if you're a Trinitarian, "you must think you are smarter than God"? There's plenty of Trinitarians who are sure that God is amazingly smarter than them, and believe in the Trinity. Pope Francis seems to be a humble man of compassion and piety, very much the kind of Christian to minister to the sick and poor and so on- and he's a Trinitarian and quite certain of his position. According to your previous post, adamant Trinitarians are supposedly possessed. (vpw said it, that settles it...)"]
Johniam:
"You claim you are "trying to understand God"???? Not trying very hard. God says thou shalt have NO OTHER GODS before Him. What part of no other Gods don't you understand??? "
WW;
{b][Poor reading comprehension is showing here. I posted that the Trinitarians are trying to understand God. I never even suggested I agreed with their conclusions. I disagree with your unsupported assertion that people who believe in the Trinity are believing in "other gods." I already posted about that- Zeus, Ganesha and Odin are "other gods." Trinitarians are worshiping the God of the Old Testament and the New Testament, they pray in Jesus' name, they try to follow Jesus' example, and they show "Christian morality" in their behavior often. If they're incorrect in how they view Jesus' relation to his Father, they understand behaving like they were told to behave. They're the ones who put forth a hand of compassion to help others. I've seen plenty of non-Trinitarians who think the only important behavior is to condemn Trinitarians for errant doctrine, and care nothing about helping others. I'm sure you're certain it's far more important to eschew the Trinity than to help others, and I'm certain the opposite is true. God's tendency to answer the prayers of Trinitarians and Unitarians with identical alacrity seem the strongest statement on how God feels about it. If it was that important, one side would get their prayers answered, and the other would get lots of visions about how they'd have to mend their doctrine before He'd answer. The Trinitarians, for whom Christ died, are just as sincere and devout as you- I'd argue a number are moreso. I'm not prepared to see them do the right thing and get prayers answered, and still condemn them for errant doctrine. If you are, then perhaps it's really YOU that think you're smarter than God, since you sound like you'd take Him to task for answering their prayers as fast as He answers yours. Or, more to the point, you may think vpw was smarter than God, if adhering to his doctrine means God's off the ball for answering the prayers of the Trinitarians.
If you actually believed I thought I was smarter than God, or even in His ballpark, it would demonstrate an inability to understand my posts. I'm not convinced that's a genuine conclusion based on what I've posted rather than what you've imagined I've posted (like imaging I was talking about myself when I said "the Trinitarians."][/b]
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waysider
Delusionando
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Twinky
Wow, I looked away for a few days, and come back to same-old same-old.
I was intrigued by Mike's claim that he has encountered thousands of PFAL grads who want to know more. He must live in a football stadium, or similar.
I wonder how many of these enlightened (?) people he has actually met, actually encountered - in person, in the flesh, as human beings - and not as online whoevers? Might a dozen be a good estimate? Or would that too be an over-estimate?
My city has a population of about 80,000. I doubt whether I have met even a tenth of them, even fleetingly, and certainly not enough to have deep conversations about theological issues.
I really had no idea that Mike had such a huge circle of friends - nay, deep conversational companions, with whom he can freely discuss PFAL. And that's without the casuals that he get into conversation with, and the people at the dance place he attends (if you're dancing, you're not talking). I got the idea he was a little reclusive. Well done, Mike! You've really taken on the boldness that PFAL has imbued you with.
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Twinky
That's FoS "realistico" or maybe "cold-waterio."
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cman
lol, pretty obvious that someone thinks it's all about him
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Bolshevik
God is not a man, that he should walk.
This "walk" with God stuff sounds like a friendly introduction to "walk the line or get whacked".
Have you revised the letter yet?
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T-Bone
wasn't that a Spanish pop star from the 80s?
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Bolshevik
This is a rephrase of the "ya but Doc is the one who put it all together".
Don't care what he did. Don't care how he got there. The end justifies the means. . . . . And to what end???
Heard this so many times at HQ . . . (yes YOU . . . and you . . . and you too)
It's a posturing, silly attempt at transcending the issue.
You are a willing participant in VPW's malignant shared fantasy.
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Mike
It is not my circle of friends I was referring to.
The vast majority of my friends now are Deadheads, musicians of all sorts, and a spectrum of brain scientists, ranging from well informed amateur such as me, to serious students of the brain, psychology, and philosophy; then grad students and professors in neuroscience.
What I was referring to is the growing number of Facebook groups that are PFAL friendly. A number of current members of TWI have joined it. From them I saw posted pictures of the PFAL Camp this thread started with. Then they had an AC Camp.
Why does everyone WANT to think I'm BSing? I saw these many groups spring up in the past 5 or so years. Some have a lot of members? How many? Go look yourselves.
I think that all of you have finished exposing the worst of TWI. Many out there only want to think of the great benefits they received. Whenever I mention GreasSpot to them they are SO disinterested in getting all negative, so I learned to not mention this place.
I think you all need some closure, after this many decades.
You did the job you felt urged to do. Now you just seem to be helping each other maintain a great state of negativity.
Why not turn to those things that are right in your lives and that generate GREAT JOY in your lives? I refuse to believe your lives are over or incapable of finally putting to rest the negatives of the past.
Take what you have right in you heads about the gentle, true, loving God and MAGNIFY it for some other people.
How many young people are you teaching the goodness of God to? Are THEY interested in all the negativity that you have saturated your lives with? I doubt that more than the numbers you doubt from me.
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cman
Yup, that's what you were taught mike.
A blanket judgement on an entire group of people.
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Twinky
Mike, I have shared a number of great positives in my life, that generate great joy - including on this thread.
Have you acknowledged even one of them? No. And no surprise there.
Do you look at other threads on this site? There are active threads in Open and in the Music one. Do you follow any of those? You said you wanted to engage in different ways. Well, go ahead. Engage.
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Bolshevik
"Walk with God"
NPDs are hypervigiliant . . . OCD I guess . . .
"Walk with God" . . . Sounds like simple believing. . . . So simple to blow it it's easier than falling off a log backwards
Unless we can get some simple clarification
(A log from a fallen way tree. . . He he he he . . . Sorry)
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T-Bone
Mike – you said :“I think that all of you have finished exposing the worst of TWI.”
you make it sound like there's plenty of good that's been ignored...but you mischaracterize what Grease Spot does and you ignore the real problem ...TWI is a cult of personality – that revolves around their delusional narcissistic morally corrupt founder victor paul wierwille; though he has passed away, the life-sucking organization barely survives living on the remnants of his “estate” which was built on a precarious foundation of twisted doctrines, delusions of grandeur, cognitive dissonance and shady practices...
...If there's any good of TWI that should not be ignored it's all the good, honest and kind folks who were or are still in it and think they are involved in a Christian ministry...whether they realize it or not they are being exploited for their dedication, finances, energy, talents, and misplaced faith...
And lest any of you wierwille-defenders get your panties in a wad may I remind you I have consistently kept my focus on actions, things that were said and done, observations, experiences, events, situations. I have never attempted to play God and peer into his heart and speculate on his intentions. I have no doubt that he believed he served God and God's people....that was probably part of his delusion...and considering how much he would publicly criticize just about every other group out there he probably thought his ministry was the one and only genuine Christian ministry.
As the old saying goes “the road to hell is paved with good intentions” - wrong or evil actions are often undertaken with good intentions – and sometimes acting upon good intentions may even have unintended consequences. What are intentions? They are merely guiding principles for our thoughts, attitudes, choices, and actions. Usually our intentions make us feel good about the beliefs we have. But intentions become irrelevant if they are not aligned with actions.
I look at how well wierwille's publicly stated intentions and any mission statements align with Christian ideology. I believe Jesus Christ set forth the two highest priorities for his followers in Matthew 22: 37 – 40 - to love God and love your neighbor as yourself. ..It seems obvious to me that how we treat people matters to God...so it makes sense that we should judge ourselves on how we actually deal with people rather than judging ourselves on why we think we serve God's people... I think it's important to be honest in evaluating our actions to see if they are in tune with our ideology.
...there is a key to proper discernment as described by Jesus Christ in Matthew 7 :
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”
I think for the most part many folks in TWI believed it was a genuine Christian organization; and as I already said above - as much as wierwille bad-mouthed other groups he more than likely thought his ministry was the only truly genuine Christian ministry; sadly, with a charismatic delusional narcissist like wierwille at the helm - and even if he had the best of intentions - the organization was doomed to be adrift in a sea of his dark fantasy; having survived this cult experience one of the many lessons I've learned is that unless a ministry or church is truly Christ-centered (in word and deed) – it's just a ship of fools...Jesus provided the key to proper discernment in the parables of Matthew 7 - warning of false prophets who come in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. Jesus said you will recognize them by their fruit; fruit is something you can see; it's something the tree produces; The fruit of one's labor is something one makes from components or raw materials or even by just plagiarizing other people's work, often adulterating their work with his incompetency and twisted viewpoints
Fruit is not the mission statement or pious platitudes - that's just labeling on products or services...that's just words...The Fair Packaging and Labeling Act , enacted in 1967, directs the Federal Trade Commission and the Food and Drug Administration to issue regulations requiring that all "consumer commodities" be labeled to disclose net contents, identity of commodity, and name and place of business of the product's manufacturer, packer, or distributor...Too bad there's not something like that for religious “commodities” – but then again who would be in charge of overseeing that? What would qualify them to be in charge? I guess that's why it's best to leave it up to each and every individual Christian “consumer” to think deeply on Jesus' criteria and let honesty and conscience be their own guide....
Jesus spoke of these religious charlatans as a diseased tree that bears bad fruit, and every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. He did not say the diseased tree should be healed, salvaged or reformed...
The passages following the bad tree imagery seem to speak to pseudo-Christian groups, led by false prophets and ravenous wolves incognito. Jesus' words particularize who the phonies are within this group – they call Jesus Lord, they talk the talk, they're Bible thumpers but they do not walk the talk – they do not do what the Lord says to do. Ultimately the last nail in the coffin for such hypocrites is when their personal storms come – their lives collapse for they were built on the foundation of a cult leader.
...There was a strange duality during my involvement with an exploitative cult. There I was in a supposedly Christian organization and yet it seemed like their agenda and their way of doing things brought on most of my hardships, frustrations, heartaches and resentment. Since I left I have thought about Psalm 23: 4 many times - “Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me...” Being in TWI was like being in a Twilight-Zone-soap-opera called “Daze of Our Lives”. We were all preoccupied - staying busy with doing “the work of the ministry”, disconnected from reality, and usually in an unfocused state of mind...maybe it could be called the fog of cults - since "brain cloud" was already taken in Joe versus the Volcano
A bizarre soap opera indeed that emphasized the priority of your "spiritual family" - "the household" (translation: those who stood with the "Man of God" / The Way Ministry), contrived interpersonal relationships, with lots of sexual scandals, and emotional and moral conflicts. ..in this cultic subculture mix of good people and some bad apples (certain folks in the hierarchy of wierwille-sycophants) I believe God often helped me through tough times in spite of what some bad people did; on the flip side I also believe God helped me during some tough spots through what some good people did. Hooray for the good folks!
The work of exposing a pseudo-Christian exploitative cult is never done as long as there are potential “customers” out there who could be lured in by their bait.
Another reason that's just as important for sounding the alarm on these religious charlatans is for those poor souls already ensnared in the darkness - a supermassive black hole of wierwille's delusions...I was one of those poor souls...My hope is that many will wake up - come to their senses - heed Jesus' warnings - and get the hell out of TWI !!!!
Edited by T-BoneTypos the sequel
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Mike
I think it's a good approximation for the tone here and the energy, time per day, and years.
Is there good fruit coming out of all these efforts?
Fifteen years ago there was godly fruit coming from some efforts: grad re-connections, PFAL review, and super-PFAL supporters magnet, that helped me intensely. I made all sorts of connections and new friends, many I work the Word and move it to this day. I also think a lot happened to assist people in sorting out the good from the bad they we absorbed.
But my friends and I here chose to focus on the good things, and my blanket judgement of MOST of what happens here is a strong, repetitive re-kindling of past grievances and focus on negatives that happened.
Notice that is NOT a judgement of the people here, just what goes on here. Maybe other forums here are better and lighter. Maybe.
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Mike
It's the intensely tone I believe is making your good works less effective.
I think the tone of this being a Mighty Fighter of the Evil Forces is a counterfeit. Any good counterfeit is going to be camouflaged with lots of good.
Hey, that's just my opinion, and we'll someday find out EXACTLY what gets burned away and what is rewarded.
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Rocky
Because you overgeneralize, exaggerate, and make easily debunked claims.
YOU can alleviate that problem by being specific and linking to verifiable sources. YOU can count the number of members of such FB groups (they generally say how many members there are) and list the names of the groups.
That was too easy of a question, Mike.
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cman
This is the same cry-baby thing you have done before.
Your accusations are false, not true, lies.
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Bolshevik
"Work the word and move it"
Implying actual work is being done.
2nd Timothy stuff?
"Ruminate about PFAL stolen by Doc, a codependent that enables without hesitation, always updating your mind to the whim of the narcissist. But shun the non-believer. Shun shun shuuuun . . . For allowing reality into your shared fantasy will mortify his wounded inner child. And he will be mad at YOU."
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cman
It doesn't bother me that any of pfal was taken from someone else.
I do and will point out that pfal was off the mark in many ways, in a positive manner that someone might hear, from the first session through the advanced class and more. I'm glad that GSC is here as a forum to voice these matters. And I am not alone, without these other members, including mike, things would not be said that need to be said.
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Bolshevik
That he stole PFAL I think distinguishes VPW as NPD versus a psychopath. Too stupid to come up with his own crap.
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WordWolf
"What I was referring to is the growing number of Facebook groups that are PFAL friendly. A number of current members of TWI have joined it. From them I saw posted pictures of the PFAL Camp this thread started with. Then they had an AC Camp.
Why does everyone WANT to think I'm BSing? I saw these many groups spring up in the past 5 or so years. Some have a lot of members? How many? Go look yourselves."
{The thing is, Mike, it's not that you're BSíng- because that's intentional. You're honestly mistaken. It's the same as anyone who tries to do statistics with an insufficient background. You're going to end up with the wrong numbers no matter how sincere you are. Facebook groups OVERLAP. If you have 5 groups with the same, OBSCURE interest, they're going to be composed of almost identical member lists. In the case of Facebook extwi groups, there's going to be a LOT of overlap. Further, you'll probably find a bunch of US in some of those lists- because just being signed up for one group doesn't make you a "fan" necessarily. Yes, there's extwi "fans" of their twi experience and pfal and the way corps, but their numbers aren't a fraction of what you'd like to think they are- and yes, they're aging out.]
"I think that all of you have finished exposing the worst of TWI. Many out there only want to think of the great benefits they received. Whenever I mention GreasSpot to them they are SO disinterested in getting all negative, so I learned to not mention this place. "
[A) No, as others already said, there's important light that STILL needs to be shined on things, especially while there's people who insist on whitewashing the worst of so much of it. I'm sure a FEW want ONLY to focus on happy memories from there. We've all discussed them, I've posted about them before- in addition to the bad times. It's PERCEPTION that it's ALL we've talked about here because here is the ONLY place anyone seems to be ALLOWED to talk about the bad times. People trying to hide from the worst of it will avoid us like the plague because they're trying to make nostalgia about a place that had no down side- which only exists in their imaginations and in their scrubbed memories of HALF the story. And that's fewer people than you'd like to admit.(You've supposedly extrapolated THOUSANDS from the handfuls you've communicated with.) ]
"I think you all need some closure, after this many decades.
You did the job you felt urged to do. Now you just seem to be helping each other maintain a great state of negativity.
Why not turn to those things that are right in your lives and that generate GREAT JOY in your lives? I refuse to believe your lives are over or incapable of finally putting to rest the negatives of the past.
Take what you have right in you heads about the gentle, true, loving God and MAGNIFY it for some other people.
How many young people are you teaching the goodness of God to? Are THEY interested in all the negativity that you have saturated your lives with? I doubt that more than the numbers you doubt from me."
[There's this persistent FICTION that exists in your mind and in the minds of a handful of people. To try to make yourselves feel better, you've all imagined that we spend all our lives focused on negative things, that all you know is what you've read on SOME of the posts we've made. Some of us have posted on some of the positive things, but you've skipped over them rather completely. Some of us have started ENTIRE THREADS about them- but since they don't match your fantasy of how dark our lives are, you can't even seem to FIND those threads. ]
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Twinky
I have no idea what this post means. "The intensely tone"? "Mighty Fighter of the Evil Forces"?
"Any good counterfeit is going to be camouflaged with lots of good." That sounds straight from the PFAL playbook. Without you even reasoning that actually, that's what TWI attempted. Except that the "lots of good" appears to have evaporated very, very early in the piece.
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Bolshevik
I remember persistently being told to act on the thankfulness of what I've been given and give back. Never got answer as to what I was given but I was still told what I should feel.
The cycle is
1. love-bomb
2. devalue
3. discard
4. hoover
5. Repeat.
People are always going to be aware of the hoover. Attempts will be made to remind folks of the love-bomb phase. Steps 2 and 3 are all in your head.
I assume a flying monkey is unaware of the purpose of any of these steps.
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Twinky
By the way, Mike, if you're ever in the UK you are welcome to come to my church or any of the associated churches, see what we do, spend time with any one of our ministers or staff, ask any questions you want about the work we carry out. I'm sure your practical help would also be welcome in cooking meals, distributing food parcels, StACCtion days (service within the community), sitting with the lonely and dispossessed and chatting to them. Hey, you could even pray with people from time to time.
The church financial accounts are also easily accessible and any questions you want can be asked of our Treasurer about those.
We've found our good works very effective. But come and see
!
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