I suppose that if we delve much deeper into this "born of the wrong seed" topic.....it becomes a doctrinal issue. But I distinctly remember that when this topic surfaced in the early 90s, many brought up these SAME ISSUES.....i.e. there is no such thing as getting "born of the wrong seed." Whereupon martindale would launch into this analogous description that it was like "a permanent doorstop that kept one's mind open to devil spirit infiltration continuously." Scriptural references were added....."Thou will keep him in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on thee" and others.
Wierwille was known for highlighting his "lockbox" teaching....[probably for a whole different reason, wink/wink]....or "learning how to keep the trapdoor shut" [from devil spirit infestation/infiltration]. So, there is some background to this and how it was slipped into the lexicon of twi-verbiage.
Anywho.....it all seems so far back in my rearview mirror that I can hardly see it anymore.
I sometimes find it fascinating that things that DON'T make sense often had a list of verses appended to them, supposedly to document them, but never actually gone over to make the point. The list wasn't there to answer questions, the list was to BLUFF. Supposedly, if you had doubts, and there's a supposed STACK of verses saying the opposite of what you're saying, the problem is you. Nobody ever actually read through the lists to see if they RELATED. (Some "keys to walking by the spirit" had lists like that after them, never discussed.)
The standard procedure- begun by vpw- was to expound upon a rambling set of analogies and anecdotes, then go fast over some verses that SUPPOSEDLY made the point, go somewhere else with the verses, then act like everything was answered just then.
I sometimes find it fascinating that things that DON'T make sense often had a list of verses appended to them, supposedly to document them, but never actually gone over to make the point. The list wasn't there to answer questions, the list was to BLUFF. Supposedly, if you had doubts, and there's a supposed STACK of verses saying the opposite of what you're saying, the problem is you. Nobody ever actually read through the lists to see if they RELATED. (Some "keys to walking by the spirit" had lists like that after them, never discussed.)
The standard procedure- begun by vpw- was to expound upon a rambling set of analogies and anecdotes, then go fast over some verses that SUPPOSEDLY made the point, go somewhere else with the verses, then act like everything was answered just then.
So true. When you "open the hood" to see what made this vehicle run......you find a cult of personality duct-taped to disjointed verses, plagiarized teachings and cliches, one-liners and claptrap. Sure, the simple verses like John 3:16 stand strong in meaning and context....but the "advanced class" stuff has been tinkered with by this weekend mechanic in his back garage.
Same with Mrs. Wierwille's book. Nobody in twi actually reads this book to see the obvious trail of plagiarized and stolen material. Victor Wierwille patched together a stack of verses and teachings from 12-14 radio and evangelical preachers from the 1930s, 1940s, and 1950s. That's all. And further, when he taught these plagiarized teachings of others..... wierwille DID NOT UNDERSTAND the Greek references and meanings, let alone walk in this spiritual power. Remember when wierwille taught in pfal that "just when they needed power it wasn't there"......that was a truism in wierwille's life.
As regards the AC, I remember nothing of what was taught. I thought it a bit of a disappointment, overrated.
What I do remember is some great fellowship. I was in Indiana for a sort of residential class (perhaps all ACs were residential?) and my twig had a lot of young women my age. We got on well, and had a great time laughing with each other. I remember sitting out in the sunshine and enjoying each other, having fun, and feeling "at home." A number of other people I met there became my SPs. I apologise to them for the waste of their money on the WC program, especially when some of them could probably have used it themselves; but I promise you that I learned things there (and afterwards) that I put into practice today (a lot about how not to treat people).
I went straight on to go in rez, so off to HQ and to do some grunt work helping set up RoA. It was with pleasure that the following year, I welcomed some of those young women from my AC twig as my younger Corps; two I became very good friends with and we stayed friends during Corps training. I wonder what has become of them.
I suppose that if we delve much deeper into this "born of the wrong seed" topic.....it becomes a doctrinal issue. But I distinctly remember that when this topic surfaced in the early 90s, many brought up these SAME ISSUES.....i.e. there is no such thing as getting "born of the wrong seed." Whereupon martindale would launch into this analogous description that it was like "a permanent doorstop that kept one's mind open to devil spirit infiltration continuously." Scriptural references were added....."Thou will keep him in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on thee" and others.
Wierwille was known for highlighting his "lockbox" teaching....[probably for a whole different reason, wink/wink]....or "learning how to keep the trapdoor shut" [from devil spirit infestation/infiltration]. So, there is some background to this and how it was slipped into the lexicon of twi-verbiage.
Anywho.....it all seems so far back in my rearview mirror that I can hardly see it anymore.
You reminded me of the first clear sighting of TWI in my rear view mirror...more like a realization that it was behind me and I was moving away from it. We had already left TWI and were temporarily living with my father-in-law while we were house hunting (how exciting and at the same time nerve-wracking – buying a home for the first time !)
...anyway...
...I was watching the movie Logan's Run on my father-in-law's TV. It's a sci-fi movie about a supposedly utopian life maintained by a computer that takes care of and controls all aspects of life – population and the consumption of resources are maintained in equilibrium. Most residents accept this way of life but there are a few who question things, especially the rebirth ritual called Carousel. Those who attempt to flee the city are called “runners”. Michael York plays Logan 5 and he is part of an elite team of policemen assigned to pursue and terminate any runners. That's all I need to say about the plot for now – I don't want to spoil it if you've never seen it – you'll want to savor every cult-like analogy as the story unfolds – going from a supposed utopia to being revealed as a dystopia...and now to why watching this movie at that particular time in my life is so significant to me.
I think it was the first time in my life while watching a movie that I had such a profound realization of escaping something so destructive by the skin of my teeth...It was a watershed moment that verified and finalized my new relationship to TWI – I am separated from it...funny how a sci-fi movie can have such resonance.
The Advanced Class was one of the major cogs in the machinations of a destructive cult. It reinforces the illusion of a little utopian world known as The Way International – everything in this “life” is under control – under your control, according to your believing, of course. You're safe inside this little world where all your needs should be met – according to your believing, of course. If you run away from this little world you'll find various options of oblivion, according to the believing of the current Bozo-in-charge, of course. After all, the “laws” of this little world are enforced by a cobbled together conglomerate police agency - which again is according to the believing of the current Bozo-in-charge, of course - it's made up (I repeat - it's made up ) of flesh-and-blood wierwille-sycophants, devil spirits, the devil-possessed, the devil-obsessed, the dispossessed who are left with little else to own except for their Advanced Class name tag, the devil wears Prada, the poor devils who need to get a life and a real job, and last but not least the infamous Bigfoot of the baddies – the unicorn of unholy unions, wrong-seed...not to be confused with the seedless grapes of wrath.
The Advanced Class was one of the major cogs in the machinations of a destructive cult. It reinforces the illusion of a little utopian world known as The Way International – everything in this “life” is under control – under your control, according to your believing, of course. You're safe inside this little world where all your needs should be met – according to your believing, of course. If you run away from this little world you'll find various options of oblivion, . . .
An internalized ponzi scheme where you are repeatedly recruiting your own thoughts?
To build a sand castle without water you can't stop moving sand . . .
It's a sci-fi movie about a supposedly utopian life maintained by a computer that takes care of and controls all aspects of life – population and the consumption of resources are maintained in equilibrium. Most residents accept this way of life but there are a few who question things,
Somewhere between The Matrix and Brave New World, then?
I read the book a long time ago. In the movie, the age limit for people was set at 30, in the book it was set at 21 years old.
The idea was that, in the future, the high birth rate (which, really, was addressable directly) meant that the Earth would be completely overrun by people, so each person's age limit was set universally at 21 years old. There were no families. You were born into some sort of structure, and your hand had a device called a "lifeflower" implanted and visible at all times. It had the record of exactly how old you were. From ages 0-7, the "lifeflower" gem was yellow. From ages 7-14, the gem was blue. From 14-21, the gem was red. When you reached within 24 hours of your 21st birthday, the gem began BLINKING- on was red, off was black. You were on Last Day. For Last Day, you tended to get special privileges here and there- anyone could see it was your last day- but you also had 24 hours to report in to some sort of extermination facility. If you failed to report in within 24 hours, your "lifeflower" gem turned black, and an alert went off in the central computer system. Then you were considered a "runner" who had "rejected sleep." Now, the authorities sent their agents to recover you- the DS men, aka "sandmen." Sandmen on duty wore grey uniforms, and people knew to let them pass. They carried revolvers, and each of the 6 chambers had a different specialized bullet loaded (a Sandman could reload, obviously.) There were bullets like Tangler (fired a capture web, useful if you might hit a civilian), Needler, Ripper, Vapor (gas cloud- Sandmen put on nose filters when firing those), Nitro (an explosive) and the dreaded Homer (a heat-seeking bullet, useful in the open, and much feared by the populace "You can't get away from a Homer." )
In this setting, there was an advanced society, and there were a few people lived outside it- like almost-feral gangs of children -"cubs"- who supposedly committed suicide sometime before their Last Day and didn't include any Reds in their number. There were legends that people COULD live much longer, and that supposedly there was a place where they could live out full lives- "Sanctuary." The title character, Logan 5, was a Sandman. Since the last person didn't explain what drives the story, I'll leave that vague as well, to avoid spoilers. You can pm me for as much information as you want.
[lcm had this thing about walking around and having passing thoughts- then making big announcements about his passing thoughts because he was getting super-revelation just like vpw did!
One thing he said after one such walk was "The Word is over the world!" (right after twi lost over 80% of its people- NOW it was MOST successful in spreading "The Word" and had spread it furthest!)
I was still in when this announcement was made. I remember that my first thought was "How does that make ANY sense?". It was so self-evidently wrong, but we were then bombarded with "explanations" of why it was true. At the time my state had less than a handful of anemic twigs in two cities. There was supposedly a twig in Hong, so the Word was over Asia, a handful of twigs in Europe, so the Word was over Europe. How silly
I was still in when this announcement was made. I remember that my first thought was "How does that make ANY sense?". It was so self-evidently wrong, but we were then bombarded with "explanations" of why it was true. At the time my state had less than a handful of anemic twigs in two cities. There was supposedly a twig in Hong, so the Word was over Asia, a handful of twigs in Europe, so the Word was over Europe. How silly
your post brought to mind something I shared of how we deceive ourselves / cognitive dissonance on another thread - see here
"How do we handle the internal conflict that arises when facts or events contradict deeply held beliefs? In his groundbreaking book, When Prophecy Fails (1956), Leon Festinger and his co-authors sought to answer that question by investigating a doomsday cult. The group was led by a Chicago housewife who claimed to channel warnings from the fictitious planet, Clarion.
Through automatic writing she was told that the Earth would be destroyed by a cataclysmic flood before dawn on December 21, 1954. The faithful quit jobs, left spouses, and gave away money and possessions, in preparation for the arrival of a flying saucer that would rescue them.
When the flying saucer did not appear, and the flood did not happen, the cultists changed the narrative, and then changed it again. They convinced themselves that their clocks were wrong. When they recognized that their clocks were correct, they set a new time for the arrival of the spaceship. When that event failed to occur, they convinced themselves that God had chosen to spare the world at the last minute because of their good deeds.
To explain this behavior, Festinger coined the term “cognitive dissonance.” This theory states that when there is discordance between our beliefs and external events or actions, we either change our actions or change our beliefs. Many people are reluctant to change their behavior, so they double down on their belief. In the case of the Clarion cult, so many had sacrificed so much in preparation for Armageddon, they were unwilling to change their actions, so they changed the narrative of their belief."
The Advanced Class was the perfect booster shot that not only renewed but increased the disharmonious effect of PFAL...students found it was easier and quicker to fight off reality...as a bass player with a wooden ear I liken it to a “stupid-natural” ability to be even more out of tune with the state of things as they actually exist.
I was still in when this announcement was made. I remember that my first thought was "How does that make ANY sense?". It was so self-evidently wrong, but we were then bombarded with "explanations" of why it was true. At the time my state had less than a handful of anemic twigs in two cities. There was supposedly a twig in Hong, so the Word was over Asia, a handful of twigs in Europe, so the Word was over Europe. How silly
AKA, why is that bozo's first thought any better than MY first thought?
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Oakspear
That whole "Great Principle" thing made no sense. God can't communicate except to what he is, i.e. spirit? But somehow that spirit that he "created in you" can communicate to your mind?
skyrider
EXACTLY...... And further, when you sit back and think about it.....wierwille, in all his narcissistic glory, attempted to become mediator between God and man. Step aside Jesus Christ and holy s
WordWolf
Anyone notice that "The Great Principle" was based on something that CHANGED? "God is Spirit, and God can only give what He is- which is Spirit." "God is Spirit, and God can only communicat
WordWolf
I sometimes find it fascinating that things that DON'T make sense often had a list of verses appended to them, supposedly to document them, but never actually gone over to make the point. The list wasn't there to answer questions, the list was to BLUFF. Supposedly, if you had doubts, and there's a supposed STACK of verses saying the opposite of what you're saying, the problem is you. Nobody ever actually read through the lists to see if they RELATED. (Some "keys to walking by the spirit" had lists like that after them, never discussed.)
The standard procedure- begun by vpw- was to expound upon a rambling set of analogies and anecdotes, then go fast over some verses that SUPPOSEDLY made the point, go somewhere else with the verses, then act like everything was answered just then.
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skyrider
So true. When you "open the hood" to see what made this vehicle run......you find a cult of personality duct-taped to disjointed verses, plagiarized teachings and cliches, one-liners and claptrap. Sure, the simple verses like John 3:16 stand strong in meaning and context....but the "advanced class" stuff has been tinkered with by this weekend mechanic in his back garage.
Same with Mrs. Wierwille's book. Nobody in twi actually reads this book to see the obvious trail of plagiarized and stolen material. Victor Wierwille patched together a stack of verses and teachings from 12-14 radio and evangelical preachers from the 1930s, 1940s, and 1950s. That's all. And further, when he taught these plagiarized teachings of others..... wierwille DID NOT UNDERSTAND the Greek references and meanings, let alone walk in this spiritual power. Remember when wierwille taught in pfal that "just when they needed power it wasn't there"......that was a truism in wierwille's life.
.
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Twinky
As regards the AC, I remember nothing of what was taught. I thought it a bit of a disappointment, overrated.
What I do remember is some great fellowship. I was in Indiana for a sort of residential class (perhaps all ACs were residential?) and my twig had a lot of young women my age. We got on well, and had a great time laughing with each other. I remember sitting out in the sunshine and enjoying each other, having fun, and feeling "at home." A number of other people I met there became my SPs. I apologise to them for the waste of their money on the WC program, especially when some of them could probably have used it themselves; but I promise you that I learned things there (and afterwards) that I put into practice today (a lot about how not to treat people).
I went straight on to go in rez, so off to HQ and to do some grunt work helping set up RoA. It was with pleasure that the following year, I welcomed some of those young women from my AC twig as my younger Corps; two I became very good friends with and we stayed friends during Corps training. I wonder what has become of them.
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T-Bone
You reminded me of the first clear sighting of TWI in my rear view mirror...more like a realization that it was behind me and I was moving away from it. We had already left TWI and were temporarily living with my father-in-law while we were house hunting (how exciting and at the same time nerve-wracking – buying a home for the first time !)
...anyway...
...I was watching the movie Logan's Run on my father-in-law's TV. It's a sci-fi movie about a supposedly utopian life maintained by a computer that takes care of and controls all aspects of life – population and the consumption of resources are maintained in equilibrium. Most residents accept this way of life but there are a few who question things, especially the rebirth ritual called Carousel. Those who attempt to flee the city are called “runners”. Michael York plays Logan 5 and he is part of an elite team of policemen assigned to pursue and terminate any runners. That's all I need to say about the plot for now – I don't want to spoil it if you've never seen it – you'll want to savor every cult-like analogy as the story unfolds – going from a supposed utopia to being revealed as a dystopia...and now to why watching this movie at that particular time in my life is so significant to me.
I think it was the first time in my life while watching a movie that I had such a profound realization of escaping something so destructive by the skin of my teeth...It was a watershed moment that verified and finalized my new relationship to TWI – I am separated from it...funny how a sci-fi movie can have such resonance.
The Advanced Class was one of the major cogs in the machinations of a destructive cult. It reinforces the illusion of a little utopian world known as The Way International – everything in this “life” is under control – under your control, according to your believing, of course. You're safe inside this little world where all your needs should be met – according to your believing, of course. If you run away from this little world you'll find various options of oblivion, according to the believing of the current Bozo-in-charge, of course. After all, the “laws” of this little world are enforced by a cobbled together conglomerate police agency - which again is according to the believing of the current Bozo-in-charge, of course - it's made up (I repeat - it's made up
) of flesh-and-blood wierwille-sycophants, devil spirits, the devil-possessed, the devil-obsessed, the dispossessed who are left with little else to own except for their Advanced Class name tag,
the devil wears Prada, the poor devils who need to get a life and a real job, and last but not least the infamous Bigfoot of the baddies – the unicorn of unholy unions, wrong-seed...not to be confused with the seedless grapes of wrath.
Edited by T-Bonetypos and formatting
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Bolshevik
An internalized ponzi scheme where you are repeatedly recruiting your own thoughts?
To build a sand castle without water you can't stop moving sand . . .
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Twinky
Somewhere between The Matrix and Brave New World, then?
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T-Bone
Yeah pretty much…
A similar theme in many stories - where the main character has to choose between the real world and an artificial world.
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Twinky
Hey, new episode of The Handmaid's Tale this evening. Haven't watched it yet.
Now we really are way
LOL!
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Bolshevik
I feel like it was the Advanced Class that required more homework.
Reading lists and packets of retemories.
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T-Bone
ah what the hell - since we're way off topic - might as well go the second mile
alternate episode of Handmaid's Tale
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Rocky
Hulu in the US already aired the final episode.
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WordWolf
"Logan's Run" derail....
I read the book a long time ago. In the movie, the age limit for people was set at 30, in the book it was set at 21 years old.
The idea was that, in the future, the high birth rate (which, really, was addressable directly) meant that the Earth would be completely overrun by people, so each person's age limit was set universally at 21 years old. There were no families. You were born into some sort of structure, and your hand had a device called a "lifeflower" implanted and visible at all times. It had the record of exactly how old you were. From ages 0-7, the "lifeflower" gem was yellow. From ages 7-14, the gem was blue. From 14-21, the gem was red. When you reached within 24 hours of your 21st birthday, the gem began BLINKING- on was red, off was black. You were on Last Day. For Last Day, you tended to get special privileges here and there- anyone could see it was your last day- but you also had 24 hours to report in to some sort of extermination facility. If you failed to report in within 24 hours, your "lifeflower" gem turned black, and an alert went off in the central computer system. Then you were considered a "runner" who had "rejected sleep." Now, the authorities sent their agents to recover you- the DS men, aka "sandmen." Sandmen on duty wore grey uniforms, and people knew to let them pass. They carried revolvers, and each of the 6 chambers had a different specialized bullet loaded (a Sandman could reload, obviously.) There were bullets like Tangler (fired a capture web, useful if you might hit a civilian), Needler, Ripper, Vapor (gas cloud- Sandmen put on nose filters when firing those), Nitro (an explosive) and the dreaded Homer (a heat-seeking bullet, useful in the open, and much feared by the populace "You can't get away from a Homer." )
In this setting, there was an advanced society, and there were a few people lived outside it- like almost-feral gangs of children -"cubs"- who supposedly committed suicide sometime before their Last Day and didn't include any Reds in their number. There were legends that people COULD live much longer, and that supposedly there was a place where they could live out full lives- "Sanctuary." The title character, Logan 5, was a Sandman. Since the last person didn't explain what drives the story, I'll leave that vague as well, to avoid spoilers. You can pm me for as much information as you want.
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Twinky
Some weird stuff out there.
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Oakspear
Probably they were better at unjustified self-confidence...
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Oakspear
I was still in when this announcement was made. I remember that my first thought was "How does that make ANY sense?". It was so self-evidently wrong, but we were then bombarded with "explanations" of why it was true. At the time my state had less than a handful of anemic twigs in two cities. There was supposedly a twig in Hong, so the Word was over Asia, a handful of twigs in Europe, so the Word was over Europe. How silly
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T-Bone
your post brought to mind something I shared of how we deceive ourselves / cognitive dissonance on another thread - see here
"How do we handle the internal conflict that arises when facts or events contradict deeply held beliefs? In his groundbreaking book, When Prophecy Fails (1956), Leon Festinger and his co-authors sought to answer that question by investigating a doomsday cult. The group was led by a Chicago housewife who claimed to channel warnings from the fictitious planet, Clarion.
Through automatic writing she was told that the Earth would be destroyed by a cataclysmic flood before dawn on December 21, 1954. The faithful quit jobs, left spouses, and gave away money and possessions, in preparation for the arrival of a flying saucer that would rescue them.
When the flying saucer did not appear, and the flood did not happen, the cultists changed the narrative, and then changed it again. They convinced themselves that their clocks were wrong. When they recognized that their clocks were correct, they set a new time for the arrival of the spaceship. When that event failed to occur, they convinced themselves that God had chosen to spare the world at the last minute because of their good deeds.
To explain this behavior, Festinger coined the term “cognitive dissonance.” This theory states that when there is discordance between our beliefs and external events or actions, we either change our actions or change our beliefs. Many people are reluctant to change their behavior, so they double down on their belief. In the case of the Clarion cult, so many had sacrificed so much in preparation for Armageddon, they were unwilling to change their actions, so they changed the narrative of their belief."
From: Psychology Today: 5 Faces of Deception in a post fact world
== == == === =
The Advanced Class was the perfect booster shot that not only renewed but increased the disharmonious effect of PFAL...students found it was easier and quicker to fight off reality...as a bass player with a wooden ear I liken it to a “stupid-natural” ability to be even more out of tune with the state of things as they actually exist.
Edited by T-Bonetypos and formatting
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Twinky
Tbone, your extract above brings to mind a certain other current political cult.
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Bolshevik
Pffft.
Foxes don't eat grapes!
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T-Bone
eeeeesh...you know how squeamish I am about that stuff...let's pretend it doesn't.
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Rocky
As in "fake it till you make it?" But did they ever make it?
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Rocky
AKA, why is that bozo's first thought any better than MY first thought?
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Bolshevik
Learned helplessness?
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waysider
Blasphemy! How dare you doubt The Word of Aesop.
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Bolshevik
The fireflies are getting thicker here in the cornfields. I associate that with the Advanced Class time but I thought it wasn't until August.
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