Some years ago, we had active discussions on each of those things you mentioned! They are all archived around these fora somewhere.
Yes, once witnessing was done that hardcore. Why has it cooled off?
twi has lost almost 100% of its membership- from a one-time high of about 48,000 to possibly 480 adults by now. Different purges cleared out everyone who wasn't willing to march off a cliff if lcm commanded it or whatever, so all the quality Christians left sooner or left later. The remaining people are too few to risk, and Rosa-lie's leadership was too phlegmatic to inspire people to ridiculous and dangerous feats.
There were those who witnessed because they were excited. They all left and twi is BORING.
I think this is a serious question, but not quite the one posed.
What is witnessing? I don't think it's going around banging on people's doors, and harassing them in parking lots and shopping malls. I don't know who has ever been "won to the Lord" by such means. More, it's likely to turn them off and certainly make the "witnessee" regard the witnesser with a cautious look.
Witnessing is more like "living it" and letting your life show what you believe. "...beready always togivean answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you..." (1 Pet 3:15), is what we were taught. But the wider context is this (1 Pet 3:8-16):
Do No Evil
8Now finally, all of you should be like-minded and sympathetic, should love believers, and be compassionate and humble, 9not paying back evil for evil or insult for insult but, on the contrary, giving a blessing, since you were called for this, so that you can inherit a blessing.
10For the one who wants to love life and to see good days must keep his tongue from evil and his lips from speaking deceit, and he must turn away from evil and do what is good. He must seek peace and pursue it12because the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and His ears are open to their request.
But the face of the Lord is against those who do what is evil.
Undeserved Suffering
13And who will harm you if you are deeply committed to what is good? 14But even if you should suffer for righteousness, you are blessed. Do not fear what they fear or be disturbed, 15but honor the •Messiah as Lord in your hearts. Always be ready to give a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you. 16However, do this with gentleness and respect, keeping your conscience clear, so that when you are accused, those who denounce your Christian life will be put to shame.
So: witnessing is, among other things, being kind, loving, compassionate and humble; blessing others, guarding one's tongue, watching what you say at all times, seeking peace, etc. This theme is common throughout the epistles. You will see that Jesus spoke kindly to those who sought him for the truth, but quick to perceive those who were being dishonest in their questioning of him. He confused crowds with his parables, but spoke plainly to those who were prepared to listen.
You will not see Jesus going from house to house, but going about his own business and speaking to people he encountered on the way, people also often going about their business and daily tasks. You will see he sent his disciples out in pairs to speak, but not to harass: if they themselves were harassed, they were to move on without regret. Because of the lifestyle Jesus lived, he didn't have to hammer on doors; rather, those behind the doors came hammering on the doors of places where he was.
Early Christians were known for their community lifestyle: sharing food, sharing financial abundance, non-discrimination, generosity of heart, looking out for each other. That's what got them noticed; that's why people wanted to join them. I'm sure they were asked many times, "Why do you do this?" And additionally then, naysayers came in also, accusing, being divisive, and that's where the Christians' answer of truth, the defence of the gospel, came in.
I loved the passion of the young believers I met when I first got "witnessed to" - enthusiasm for God; knowledge of parts of the Bible, ability to open a bible and find verses. I met the person who witnessed to me at a party; there seemed to be a glow about him, a real light and charisma. Not everyone has charisma; but we can all have passion and a commitment to speak truth in all circumstances.
And we can all be kind, loving, compassionate, watch what we say, and seek peace. That will still catch people's attention.
480 adults? That is unbelievable. Imagine thinking that this is the only real/best? I mean, come on. It's so good and accurate that it's a secret? lol
I am also surprised, but shouldn't be, that they peaked at 48,000. I was once told that the rock of A had 100,000 people.
It's a trip to continue to find out that your childhood was even more of a lie than I thought.
Thanks for the reply.
We don't have EXACT stats because twi has been hiding their numbers all along, and kept doubling-down on it every time a mass exodus hit (1985, 1989, etc). The 1989 purge cleared out 4 out of every 5 members overall, which was the biggest percentage drop in one year of which I'm aware.
The most reliable method of numbers has always been headcounts at the ROA. The rule of thumb was that 1/2 the people attended. So, the highest attendance was, IIRC, for ROA 79 or 82 or something, and it was 24,000 people. Doubling that for the 1/2 who stayed home gave us 48,000 twi members at the time. Yes, twi bled members from 1985 to 1989, but it was only after lcm drew his line in the sand, DEMANDED AN OATH OF LOYALTY TO HIM PERSONALLY, and fired any leader who gave any other answer like "I vow to serve God". So, between ROA 88 and ROA 89, the ROA attendance collapsed to 1/5 the 88 attendance. Of course, some people waited until the end of ROA 89 to leave for good, so ROA 90 was even SMALLER.
In case you're wondering what lcm meant about the oath of loyalty, one twi'er phoned and spoke to him personally- they knew each other. He told lcm it sounded like he wanted everyone in twi to follow him BLINDLY. lcm replied that he (the caller) was already doing that. The caller disagreed ("I told him that if that's what he thought, he could kiss my @$$ and hung up.") Since then, some people have tried to excuse lcm for this, and kept imagining what lcm meant. None of them ever defended his claim that lcm insisted twi was to follow him BLINDLY.
The number you were quoted was an error. vpw claimed that there were 100,000 names in "the book of life"- that is, a total of 100,000 people had ever signed up for pfal. The implications that 100,000 people ever were in twi were dishonest. With all classes, some people never turned up for Session 1. Some people who did never turned up for Session 12. And some people vanished either right after Session 12 or in their first month thereafter. When I took pfal, we had 8 people on the roll, with 7 attending the first session, and THREE completing Session 12- myself, a coordinator's wife, and a different coordinator's son. So, claiming the 100,000 who ever signed up was deceptive.
When it comes to twi, it is amazing how many levels of lie there were. Every time I think I've heard it all, I find out something else.
480 adults? That is unbelievable. Imagine thinking that this is the only real/best? I mean, come on. It's so good and accurate that it's a secret? lol
I am also surprised, but shouldn't be, that they peaked at 48,000. I was once told that the rock of A had 100,000 people.
It's a trip to continue to find out that your childhood was even more of a lie than I thought.
Thanks for the reply.
I love your post! What a bunch of self-inflating blowhards we all hitched our wagons to! You’ve touched on one of the “greatest mysteries “ that use to bug me like crazy in the latter days of my TWI involvement - but I’d have to keep it in check thinking it was our poor believing that caused such low turnout of new people signing up for the class. .. I have a fuzzy memory of - - Elaina Whiteside (?) saying something like we were plunged midstream into the greatest adventure ever conceived...and I often thought if this class...this ministry was the real deal and as exciting, satisfying, fulfilling, life-changing and wonderful as they all hyped it up to be - then people ought to be coming out of the woodwork to get in on the action...
Like you said about realizing the big lie - what a mind-blowing realization it was to figure out that I got sucked into a supermassive black hole that trapped all the time, matter and energy of an “alternate universe “ (actual “breadth and length and depth and height “ of this other-worldly anomaly depends on how TWI calculates the number of members/followers/suckers)...but on the bright side I’ve solved one of the greatest mysteries that use to bug the $hit out of me!
Edited by T-Bone Superstring theory: what are Clark Kent’s shoe laces made of
The way international really uses the pyramid marketing scheme for their expansion efforts. You get the new guy roped in and start that person to work winning new people. Thats exactly what happened to me and thats exactly what they taught us to do at every level from household fellowship coordinator to presidents cabinet. Slogans out the wazoo, such as each one win one. And of course they focus in on the new recruits friends family and fellow workers. The push to win new people never stops. Not only do the way international kinda suck at winning new recruits, but they are even worse at holding long standing grads. They treat people like gold one day and the next like trash.
In the Way of the late 60's, 70's witnessing was a mixed bag of helping people, making friends, sharing and teaching what the Bible says and specifically sharing "salvation through Christ". The primary tool of choice for teaching the Bible was PFAL and The Way 'Nash was the "church" that wasn't a church but a teaching ministry providing the structural pinnings for fellowship, worship, and social life - but hold that thought....
PFAL was not intended to be a tool to "just" do that - it was intended to be a tool to teach "the accuracy of God's Word", specifically the array of Dr. Weirwille's critical need-to-know topics that were being "rightly divided" in PFAL. Many if not all of the fundamental creeds of Christian faith were redefined by this teaching - similar in face and look to some degree but fundamentally very different, to the degree that VPW didn't even want to call those who took PFAL "Christians", he socialized the term "Believers" into the Way's vernacular. His "students" BELIEVED, they lambano'd that stuff. (but it's smart to remember - the first "believers" to be called Christians were a Gentile congregation in Antioch, evangelized and taught by Paul and his team and according to VPW were probably taught much the same things and ways as he himself was doing..... VPW liked to say it was because they were always talking about the "Christ in them" and did a kind of word-mash to get the term Christian buuuut...yeah. Anyway, he balked at the term to distance himself from the great unwashed masses of non grads of PFAL and did so at great harm to any effort to actually help others, IMO.)
So "witnessing" was essentially signing people up for PFAL classes. And I would argue it's not the worse time I ever spent in a metal chair, speaking for myself. PFAL establishes several things upfront - that the Bible needs to be viewed as a revelation from God, a product of inspired writing and expression. For the person who wants to know God and His intentions for mankind it is not just a book of myths and stories with a few parables thrown in. That with some rudimentary tools and guidelines (historical context, cultural context, language interpretation, chronology amongst others) the meaning of most of it can be understood, and much of that from reading it on face value. PFAL taught me that Jesus Christ once said He came to give life, "abundant" life, that life is beset by thieves who steal, kill and destroy - Christ came to give us Life, real life, and real Love. I learned about the spiritual gifts and "manifestations" and most importantly that God works and wills in us today no differently than He did when Christ was alive and His followers lived. I learned about prayer and the value of a strong Christian social life with real relationships. I learned about Grace, and Mercy, through what Christ did. I learned how loving and kind Jesus Christ was to nearly everyone He dealt with and that even those who wanted to kill him answered to a greater God, just as He did.
Now - PFAL taught a lot of stuff and after a few times and some study, I pretty much "got it". It's not a hard set of materials to master. The subjects, the contents, could and will take a lifetime to learn and apply and grow in - and I'd contend that the purpose of what we're taught in the Bible New Testament isn't to make us lifelong students who must be incessantly reminded of what we've learned lest we forget - and sure we all need to be refreshed and reminded of things - but the intention is for us to live the LIFE that God gives us through Christ and insodoing - live. Learn, grow and enjoy. The best way to stay on track in our new life is to mmmm......live in it. I don't look at it and want to be more like it - I'm "it". I just need to remember to be the Me God has made me.
Now then to the question of witnessing - for me it was
1. share the knowledge of who Christ is and what He means
2. share specifics of how God wants us to live and what that life means and looks like
3. Guide people to the Bible which is where they'll learn more about all this
4. Sign 'em up! for PFAL!
As time went on I do think the goal of ONLY signing people up became part of the problem - yet even then all the years I was involved in the Way including the early years, the Corps and working there on Staff after, I was always compelled to HELP PEOPLE through my direct contact.
Still and all, when I travelled with the Way the number one measure of success was the 'signed green card' - and unlike many of the more loud mouthed swaggering "leaders" in the Way who never left the comfort of a well organized meeting lectern or living room where they could pontificate and bloviate all night - I did sign up people for PFAL. LOTS of people and by traveling throughout the entire country, every major city and every place the Way had people large and small, over several years, I put my money where my mouth was and didn't just tell people what THEY should be doing and blaming them when they failed for not "BELIEVING BIG ENOUGH".
My prayer is that in that effort they got enough of the love and learned what to do with it. It's been a long haul.
Edited by socks You've come a long way, Pilgrim!...."Feels like far"......Were it worth the trouble!?....."Ahuh? What trouble....?"
II Cor. 4:5: For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your servants for Jesus's sake.
To me, this is the heart of witnessing. Sadly, witnessing in TWI became preaching ourselves. Instead of reaching out to the person on the street to show him how Christ can meet his needs, we just invited him to come to our fellowship. If he came, he might learn something useful; but if not, we missed a chance to change his life.
In the Way of the late 60's, 70's witnessing was a mixed bag of helping people, making friends, sharing and teaching what the Bible says and specifically sharing "salvation through Christ". The primary tool of choice for teaching the Bible was PFAL and The Way 'Nash was the "church" that wasn't a church but a teaching ministry providing the structural pinnings for fellowship, worship, and social life - but hold that thought....
PFAL was not intended to be a tool to "just" do that - it was intended to be a tool to teach "the accuracy of God's Word", specifically the array of Dr. Weirwille's critical need-to-know topics that were being "rightly divided" in PFAL. Many if not all of the fundamental creeds of Christian faith were redefined by this teaching - similar in face and look to some degree but fundamentally very different, to the degree that VPW didn't even want to call those who took PFAL "Christians", he socialized the term "Believers" into the Way's vernacular. His "students" BELIEVED, they lambano'd that stuff. (but it's smart to remember - the first "believers" to be called Christians were a Gentile congregation in Antioch, evangelized and taught by Paul and his team and according to VPW were probably taught much the same things and ways as he himself was doing..... VPW liked to say it was because they were always talking about the "Christ in them" and did a kind of word-mash to get the term Christian buuuut...yeah. Anyway, he balked at the term to distance himself from the great unwashed masses of non grads of PFAL and did so at great harm to any effort to actually help others, IMO.)
So "witnessing" was essentially signing people up for PFAL classes. And I would argue it's not the worse time I ever spent in a metal chair, speaking for myself. PFAL establishes several things upfront - that the Bible needs to be viewed as a revelation from God, a product of inspired writing and expression. For the person who wants to know God and His intentions for mankind it is not just a book of myths and stories with a few parables thrown in. That with some rudimentary tools and guidelines (historical context, cultural context, language interpretation, chronology amongst others) the meaning of most of it can be understood, and much of that from reading it on face value. PFAL taught me that Jesus Christ once said He came to give life, "abundant" life, that life is beset by thieves who steal, kill and destroy - Christ came to give us Life, real life, and real Love. I learned about the spiritual gifts and "manifestations" and most importantly that God works and wills in us today no differently than He did when Christ was alive and His followers lived. I learned about prayer and the value of a strong Christian social life with real relationships. I learned about Grace, and Mercy, through what Christ did. I learned how loving and kind Jesus Christ was to nearly everyone He dealt with and that even those who wanted to kill him answered to a greater God, just as He did.
Now - PFAL taught a lot of stuff and after a few times and some study, I pretty much "got it". It's not a hard set of materials to master. The subjects, the contents, could and will take a lifetime to learn and apply and grow in - and I'd contend that the purpose of what we're taught in the Bible New Testament isn't to make us lifelong students who must be incessantly reminded of what we've learned lest we forget - and sure we all need to be refreshed and reminded of things - but the intention is for us to live the LIFE that God gives us through Christ and insodoing - live. Learn, grow and enjoy. The best way to stay on track in our new life is to mmmm......live in it. I don't look at it and want to be more like it - I'm "it". I just need to remember to be the Me God has made me.
Now then to the question of witnessing - for me it was
1. share the knowledge of who Christ is and what He means
2. share specifics of how God wants us to live and what that life means and looks like
3. Guide people to the Bible which is where they'll learn more about all this
4. Sign 'em up! for PFAL!
As time went on I do think the goal of ONLY signing people up became part of the problem - yet even then all the years I was involved in the Way including the early years, the Corps and working there on Staff after, I was always compelled to HELP PEOPLE through my direct contact.
Still and all, when I travelled with the Way the number one measure of success was the 'signed green card' - and unlike many of the more loud mouthed swaggering "leaders" in the Way who never left the comfort of a well organized meeting lectern or living room where they could pontificate and bloviate all night - I did sign up people for PFAL. LOTS of people and by traveling throughout the entire country, every major city and every place the Way had people large and small, over several years, I put my money where my mouth was and didn't just tell people what THEY should be doing and blaming them when they failed for not "BELIEVING BIG ENOUGH".
My prayer is that in that effort they got enough of the love and learned what to do with it. It's been a long haul.
I always felt like it was high pressure sales with quotas. Even in the 70's. Our hearts might have been in the right place but we would be in "trouble", especially as a WOW (twice) if we weren't constantly running classes. Hence the homeless, addicts and others who were there for the food and kisses. But that was my experience.
I always felt like it was high pressure sales with quotas. Even in the 70's. Our hearts might have been in the right place but we would be in "trouble", especially as a WOW (twice) if we weren't constantly running classes. Hence the homeless, addicts and others who were there for the food and kisses. But that was my experience.
Yes, there was plenty of that.
For me it boiled down to this - Just as salvation was personal for me it will be personal for others. It can't be mass produced, we're all a crowd of "one's
Jesus is "the way", described as the door, the gate, the means by which...
Like a door, everyone can't go through at once, all the pushing and shoving in the world will only create a bottleneck. Everyone goes through singly and then everyone can get through. And in that way there's plenty of access, even as we do find ourselves in the arc of a timeline. Time is of the essence but it doesn't control the rules or God's intentions and plan.
It's personal, individual - me and Jesus Christ, us and God.
It's kind of an anachronism now but lest I forget Corps training (by and around the 4th Corps) included a sales course and a public speaking course, both taught by Bill Maize. Bill was a certified Dale Carnegie instructor, a PFAL grad and taught the Carnegie material with a specific eye on what we were doing which included teaching, witnessing and of course, signing people up for PFAL.
Over time I think Bill's teaching and overall approach were excellent and have held up. I've continued my education in general business and some specific technical fields, completed 100's of hours of CE - continuing education - to increase and refresh my skills and knowledge, facilitated 100's more in my career work and specialized at times in training others in topics like Workflows & Analysis and UXP testing (user experience) related to client-side application development. Plus I've got 1000's of hours of public speaking under my belt teaching on the Bible, Christianity, "sermonizing" and otherwise pontificating on any number of related topics and as a musician taught music and performed all my life (less so these last 30 years or so). For my time and money, Bill Maize taught material that I've used over and over throughout the years and been able to build on. At one time I did fairly well in sales related fields and jobs and the Carnegie concepts served me as did many of the specific methods when they were reapplied and tailored to other settings. For me the combination of Sales and Public Speaking gave me something I think others might have ignored - an approach to communicating with others that helped me learn about others and understand them. The "sales" part for me was defined immediately by the statement we learned - "a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still".....so I took the idea of "selling something" through manipulation off the table....I could see that even the most needy person would only go along with something they didn't really want for so long and by continuing expose themselves to possible damage....anything close to full valid acceptance requires more than just accommodating a weakness or need with promises....
And for many the promise of a group of people who suddenly liked you or at the least put up with you, wanted you to hang with them and who were interested in you and what you did and what you needed was pretty heady stuff. And that alone can be a healing balm, to be accepted for who you are - and in Christian thinking for who God wants you to be, but without the the emotional and physical debt of guilt, judgment and condemnation. Free - "free at last!" to be ourselves in God's creation.
The Carnegie material is still represented and offered in varying formats by many training and trade groups and the content is refreshed of course. For me years ago, was it really necessary? No, not really. Any caring person willing to take the time to meet others and get to know them with the intent to help them with their friendship and what they know will do most of the important stuff - invest their time, listen, be patient, try to understand, etc. etc. BUT it did something very important for me personally, gave me time and methods to help me learn to communicate and express myself better with others, and start that lifelong journey of doing so.
Where all this went south IMO was taking any of it and pushing it into some pre-fab format of quotas and measurements to "get people in the Class".....even if it's vacuums there's always going to be a report of "how many did you sell" but from the human side the report will really say "how many people were helped with the products"?.....
Even writing this it sickens me to remember sitting with some of the fk-tard "leaders" sitting on someone else's couch in their home drinking their coffee and yelling at them for not "getting enough signups to start a CLASS!!!!"
Sad.
But it's all blue skies and berry pies today! PTL! Free!!! Free at last!!!!
Speaking of Bill Maize - I still remember the memory peg system (uhm some of it anyway): 1 run, 2 zoo...and I agree on the useful stuff of what he taught - for me it wasn’t sales but in public speaking and technical training - I used to train installers and service technicians and sometimes had to make short instruction videos for end-users and sometimes “technically inept“ CEOs.
Well, we called it "witnessing", but what we were really doing was not too different than what the vinyl siding guy does when he knocks on your door to tell you about the sale of a lifetime that you can't afford to miss. The only difference is the siding guy actually gets a commission.
For a number of years, I'm aware that twi's way corps taught their students the entire contents of the Dale Carnegie Sales Training course without paying any licensing fees to the company- nor any other fee, for that matter. Does anyone know if they still cheat Dale Carnegie to this day?
For a number of years, I'm aware that twi's way corps taught their students the entire contents of the Dale Carnegie Sales Training course without paying any licensing fees to the company- nor any other fee, for that matter. Does anyone know if they still cheat Dale Carnegie to this day?
Never heard of that, where'd you become aware of that? It may have been after they opened Emporia, and/or after Bill Maize taught the classes at the Way Nash. His son was also a certified Carnegie instructor and I believe Bill Sr's territory continued through to his son. There wasn't any such conflict with the material that Bill Maize taught. I've worked with other licensed/certified instructors of licensed course work who customized courses for companies and developed offerings for them.
Edited by socks I always like to double check my work, just to see if - you know, there's anything I missed the first time.
I'd heard that here, with no names attached to the story. I'd heard that some graduate of the DC course had been reteaching the material without notifying DC nor paying royalties, at vpw's order. Since this was completely how vpw did things, it didn't surprise me one bit- except, possibly, that it was still known by the name of the originating material and not some new program vpw and God concocted together in a church basement while vpw ate grapes while miraculous snow fell, or something. Then again, too many people knew that's where the material was from, so he couldn't hide the name without making it obvious he was doing that- which would reveal he was capable of plagiarizing the work of others, and he didn't WANT to get caught or even suspected. I also know lcm said that vpw complained that too many corps weren't REALLY committed, and were just in it to learn the DC course material (lcm said so in "vp and me.") It's amazing how many things vpw found to complain about when it came to the wc students while he had them on-grounds and paying and doing manual labor- but never found any reason to make the program more selective, drawing fewer numbers but also less tuition and fewer bodies to perform manual labor while paying for the privilege.
I did a little checking in some of the old threads. Without checking everything, it appears that the way corps incorporated DC early on, in different versions. Forst, DC's famous book was required reading. Then some techniques from there were taught to be used for "witnessing." Then a grad of DC's course was in twi, and he began teaching a twi "version" of the material (again, with neither credit nor licensing fees nor notice given to the organization that owned all the rights.) HCW made a passing comment about having actual DC trainers show up on grounds, but I've found technical problems with some of his accounts before, so perhaps he was misinformed about twi actually paying for a DC trainer to show up and train. On the other hand, it is POSSIBLE they did. It is inconsistent with twi policy, however. (Plagiarize what you can, use without paying anything you can.) Having seen they were already using DC material and getting away with doing it for free, I have a hard time picturing vpw deciding to do the morally-responsible- and EXPENSIVE- thing and giving both due credit AND MONEY to DC. IF it happened, there would have to be one HECK of a story behind it- something elaborate with wc people setting it all up in secret, or something.
I did a little checking in some of the old threads. Without checking everything, it appears that the way corps incorporated DC early on, in different versions. Forst, DC's famous book was required reading. Then some techniques from there were taught to be used for "witnessing." Then a grad of DC's course was in twi, and he began teaching a twi "version" of the material (again, with neither credit nor licensing fees nor notice given to the organization that owned all the rights.) HCW made a passing comment about having actual DC trainers show up on grounds, but I've found technical problems with some of his accounts before, so perhaps he was misinformed about twi actually paying for a DC trainer to show up and train. On the other hand, it is POSSIBLE they did. It is inconsistent with twi policy, however. (Plagiarize what you can, use without paying anything you can.) Having seen they were already using DC material and getting away with doing it for free, I have a hard time picturing vpw deciding to do the morally-responsible- and EXPENSIVE- thing and giving both due credit AND MONEY to DC. IF it happened, there would have to be one HECK of a story behind it- something elaborate with wc people setting it all up in secret, or something.
I'm not sure what that's all about, so perhaps is someone else's memory of something else. There may have been something that went on before the Corps course offerings, perhaps that was even what brought Maize into the picture, although his history with PFAL wasn't a secret to at that time.
The Dale Carnegie courses I received taught by Bill Maize were when he was a licensed/certified to instruct Carnegie courses in a territory in Ohio where he could offer the Carnegie courses as a Carnegie instructor. None of the materials or the class in toto were relabeled Wayfer versions under different names and presenters, and we got copies of the Carnegie books and materials. (my wife recently crossed professional paths with an educational/trade organization that offers some current work by the Carnegie group and I found a copy of a small Carnegie Booklet we still have from 1973, that she had signed her name inside of, and it gave them quite a chuckle to hear that)
I understood Bill's courses on Public Speaking and Sales Techniques were based fully on his material which was based of course on the original books and material of Carnegie. It began with the First Corps and were offered in each Corps thereafter, to the 4th I was in. I believe it was offered then to at least the 5th and "Family Corps" at the Way Nash, under Bill's teaching but I wasn't in the "residence" program at that time, I was on staff in the first iteration of the "interim" year. It may have then been offered after in whatever forms, but I wasn't there attending any of them so can't say what they did first hand.
Whatever financial arrangements the Way had with Bill Maize I don't know, his expenses were likely covered and he probably received a fee or honorarium of some sort per student, but he may have also done it gratis or at a reduced fee. Guys like John Somerville who began TFI (The Total Fitness Institute) in the 70's arranged with VPW to have Way Corps come in for outdoor climbing, survival and "leadership" training classes and he received a fee for each Corps person in the early groups that went to help with expenses (he told us when the 4th Corps had the option to go) and he also got at least a day or so of work/labor out of each person to help doing odd chores and tasks for building his camp and cabin, although it was a pretty disorganized affair at times that I was there over two weeks. I mention that to say that over the years VPW cut arrangements with lots of people to barter/trade, that I know and there's probably many others too I'm not, of course. But with Bill Maize it was a straightforward class he taught on prem, one night a week over several weeks, with exercises and assignments we were required to complete successfully. I remember this even more specifically because one of my wife's speeches/presentations was selected to be included in a Sunday Night Service, it was about 5 minutes I believe and was one of two that were picked that week that exemplified the stuff we were learning. She even remembers that to this day.
Wuddelse - so, Maize's courses with us weren't secret or anything remotely clandestine. The finances weren't an additional fee for the Corps as we paid tuition/sponsorship to be in the live/work program as it was outlined that year, and whatever Bill and VPW had arranged was between them.
Edited by socks That doesn't really work, does it?...did you try...shouldn't it be a bit more...or this?...This...! Yes...better? What do you think?
Old thread but good one. Dale Carnegie materials continued to be used through Way Corps 2 training (I think they are labeling it Way 4 now). Nobody was certified, Martindale plagiarized and re taught the material as Corps training.
Witnessing as a term in the way is the exact same cult construct as the Jehovahs Witnesses. Members are required to provide service. Through direct leadership messaging and peer pressure. Service is door to door witnessing inviting people to a class presentation usually.
Leaders are trained in getting people witnessing and signing people up for classes.
Totally different concept from the one on the Bible of people living their faith and that garnering attention, but that concept was always gaslighted. Leaders said that was what they were doing.
Okay then why the need for full coverage vacuum cleaner sales tactics?
Really life becomes much more free in Christ when people stop looking at others as a means to an end.
In fact if you notice lurkers in cars in your neighborhoods mapping out addresses you can be assured they are either vacuum or magazine sales, Jehovahs Witnesses, or Way Corpse.
Except the percentages for Way Corpse have kind of dropped a tad over the years.
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WordWolf
Some years ago, we had active discussions on each of those things you mentioned! They are all archived around these fora somewhere.
Yes, once witnessing was done that hardcore. Why has it cooled off?
twi has lost almost 100% of its membership- from a one-time high of about 48,000 to possibly 480 adults by now. Different purges cleared out everyone who wasn't willing to march off a cliff if lcm commanded it or whatever, so all the quality Christians left sooner or left later. The remaining people are too few to risk, and Rosa-lie's leadership was too phlegmatic to inspire people to ridiculous and dangerous feats.
There were those who witnessed because they were excited. They all left and twi is BORING.
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Junior Corps Surviver
480 adults? That is unbelievable. Imagine thinking that this is the only real/best? I mean, come on. It's so good and accurate that it's a secret? lol
I am also surprised, but shouldn't be, that they peaked at 48,000. I was once told that the rock of A had 100,000 people.
It's a trip to continue to find out that your childhood was even more of a lie than I thought.
Thanks for the reply.
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Twinky
I think this is a serious question, but not quite the one posed.
What is witnessing? I don't think it's going around banging on people's doors, and harassing them in parking lots and shopping malls. I don't know who has ever been "won to the Lord" by such means. More, it's likely to turn them off and certainly make the "witnessee" regard the witnesser with a cautious look.
Witnessing is more like "living it" and letting your life show what you believe. "...be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you..." (1 Pet 3:15), is what we were taught. But the wider context is this (1 Pet 3:8-16):
Do No Evil
8Now finally, all of you should be like-minded and sympathetic, should love believers, and be compassionate and humble, 9not paying back evil for evil or insult for insult but, on the contrary, giving a blessing, since you were called for this, so that you can inherit a blessing.
10For the one who wants to love life and to see good days must keep his tongue from evil and his lips from speaking deceit, and he must turn away from evil and do what is good. He must seek peace and pursue it12because the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and His ears are open to their request.
But the face of the Lord is against those who do what is evil.
Undeserved Suffering
13And who will harm you if you are deeply committed to what is good? 14But even if you should suffer for righteousness, you are blessed. Do not fear what they fear or be disturbed, 15but honor the •Messiah as Lord in your hearts. Always be ready to give a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you. 16However, do this with gentleness and respect, keeping your conscience clear, so that when you are accused, those who denounce your Christian life will be put to shame.
So: witnessing is, among other things, being kind, loving, compassionate and humble; blessing others, guarding one's tongue, watching what you say at all times, seeking peace, etc. This theme is common throughout the epistles. You will see that Jesus spoke kindly to those who sought him for the truth, but quick to perceive those who were being dishonest in their questioning of him. He confused crowds with his parables, but spoke plainly to those who were prepared to listen.
You will not see Jesus going from house to house, but going about his own business and speaking to people he encountered on the way, people also often going about their business and daily tasks. You will see he sent his disciples out in pairs to speak, but not to harass: if they themselves were harassed, they were to move on without regret. Because of the lifestyle Jesus lived, he didn't have to hammer on doors; rather, those behind the doors came hammering on the doors of places where he was.
Early Christians were known for their community lifestyle: sharing food, sharing financial abundance, non-discrimination, generosity of heart, looking out for each other. That's what got them noticed; that's why people wanted to join them. I'm sure they were asked many times, "Why do you do this?" And additionally then, naysayers came in also, accusing, being divisive, and that's where the Christians' answer of truth, the defence of the gospel, came in.
I loved the passion of the young believers I met when I first got "witnessed to" - enthusiasm for God; knowledge of parts of the Bible, ability to open a bible and find verses. I met the person who witnessed to me at a party; there seemed to be a glow about him, a real light and charisma. Not everyone has charisma; but we can all have passion and a commitment to speak truth in all circumstances.
And we can all be kind, loving, compassionate, watch what we say, and seek peace. That will still catch people's attention.
Not banging on their doors!
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WordWolf
We don't have EXACT stats because twi has been hiding their numbers all along, and kept doubling-down on it every time a mass exodus hit (1985, 1989, etc). The 1989 purge cleared out 4 out of every 5 members overall, which was the biggest percentage drop in one year of which I'm aware.
The most reliable method of numbers has always been headcounts at the ROA. The rule of thumb was that 1/2 the people attended. So, the highest attendance was, IIRC, for ROA 79 or 82 or something, and it was 24,000 people. Doubling that for the 1/2 who stayed home gave us 48,000 twi members at the time. Yes, twi bled members from 1985 to 1989, but it was only after lcm drew his line in the sand, DEMANDED AN OATH OF LOYALTY TO HIM PERSONALLY, and fired any leader who gave any other answer like "I vow to serve God". So, between ROA 88 and ROA 89, the ROA attendance collapsed to 1/5 the 88 attendance. Of course, some people waited until the end of ROA 89 to leave for good, so ROA 90 was even SMALLER.
In case you're wondering what lcm meant about the oath of loyalty, one twi'er phoned and spoke to him personally- they knew each other. He told lcm it sounded like he wanted everyone in twi to follow him BLINDLY. lcm replied that he (the caller) was already doing that. The caller disagreed ("I told him that if that's what he thought, he could kiss my @$$ and hung up.") Since then, some people have tried to excuse lcm for this, and kept imagining what lcm meant. None of them ever defended his claim that lcm insisted twi was to follow him BLINDLY.
The number you were quoted was an error. vpw claimed that there were 100,000 names in "the book of life"- that is, a total of 100,000 people had ever signed up for pfal. The implications that 100,000 people ever were in twi were dishonest. With all classes, some people never turned up for Session 1. Some people who did never turned up for Session 12. And some people vanished either right after Session 12 or in their first month thereafter. When I took pfal, we had 8 people on the roll, with 7 attending the first session, and THREE completing Session 12- myself, a coordinator's wife, and a different coordinator's son. So, claiming the 100,000 who ever signed up was deceptive.
When it comes to twi, it is amazing how many levels of lie there were. Every time I think I've heard it all, I find out something else.
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T-Bone
I love your post! What a bunch of self-inflating blowhards we all hitched our wagons to! You’ve touched on one of the “greatest mysteries “ that use to bug me like crazy in the latter days of my TWI involvement - but I’d have to keep it in check thinking it was our poor believing that caused such low turnout of new people signing up for the class. .. I have a fuzzy memory of - - Elaina Whiteside (?) saying something like we were plunged midstream into the greatest adventure ever conceived...and I often thought if this class...this ministry was the real deal and as exciting, satisfying, fulfilling, life-changing and wonderful as they all hyped it up to be - then people ought to be coming out of the woodwork to get in on the action...
Like you said about realizing the big lie - what a mind-blowing realization it was to figure out that I got sucked into a supermassive black hole that trapped all the time, matter and energy of an “alternate universe “ (actual “breadth and length and depth and height “ of this other-worldly anomaly depends on how TWI calculates the number of members/followers/suckers)...but on the bright side I’ve solved one of the greatest mysteries that use to bug the $hit out of me!
Edited by T-BoneSuperstring theory: what are Clark Kent’s shoe laces made of
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OldSkool
The way international really uses the pyramid marketing scheme for their expansion efforts. You get the new guy roped in and start that person to work winning new people. Thats exactly what happened to me and thats exactly what they taught us to do at every level from household fellowship coordinator to presidents cabinet. Slogans out the wazoo, such as each one win one. And of course they focus in on the new recruits friends family and fellow workers. The push to win new people never stops. Not only do the way international kinda suck at winning new recruits, but they are even worse at holding long standing grads. They treat people like gold one day and the next like trash.
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socks
In the Way of the late 60's, 70's witnessing was a mixed bag of helping people, making friends, sharing and teaching what the Bible says and specifically sharing "salvation through Christ". The primary tool of choice for teaching the Bible was PFAL and The Way 'Nash was the "church" that wasn't a church but a teaching ministry providing the structural pinnings for fellowship, worship, and social life - but hold that thought....
PFAL was not intended to be a tool to "just" do that - it was intended to be a tool to teach "the accuracy of God's Word", specifically the array of Dr. Weirwille's critical need-to-know topics that were being "rightly divided" in PFAL. Many if not all of the fundamental creeds of Christian faith were redefined by this teaching - similar in face and look to some degree but fundamentally very different, to the degree that VPW didn't even want to call those who took PFAL "Christians", he socialized the term "Believers" into the Way's vernacular. His "students" BELIEVED, they lambano'd that stuff. (but it's smart to remember - the first "believers" to be called Christians were a Gentile congregation in Antioch, evangelized and taught by Paul and his team and according to VPW were probably taught much the same things and ways as he himself was doing..... VPW liked to say it was because they were always talking about the "Christ in them" and did a kind of word-mash to get the term Christian buuuut...yeah. Anyway, he balked at the term to distance himself from the great unwashed masses of non grads of PFAL and did so at great harm to any effort to actually help others, IMO.)
So "witnessing" was essentially signing people up for PFAL classes. And I would argue it's not the worse time I ever spent in a metal chair, speaking for myself. PFAL establishes several things upfront - that the Bible needs to be viewed as a revelation from God, a product of inspired writing and expression. For the person who wants to know God and His intentions for mankind it is not just a book of myths and stories with a few parables thrown in. That with some rudimentary tools and guidelines (historical context, cultural context, language interpretation, chronology amongst others) the meaning of most of it can be understood, and much of that from reading it on face value. PFAL taught me that Jesus Christ once said He came to give life, "abundant" life, that life is beset by thieves who steal, kill and destroy - Christ came to give us Life, real life, and real Love. I learned about the spiritual gifts and "manifestations" and most importantly that God works and wills in us today no differently than He did when Christ was alive and His followers lived. I learned about prayer and the value of a strong Christian social life with real relationships. I learned about Grace, and Mercy, through what Christ did. I learned how loving and kind Jesus Christ was to nearly everyone He dealt with and that even those who wanted to kill him answered to a greater God, just as He did.
Now - PFAL taught a lot of stuff and after a few times and some study, I pretty much "got it". It's not a hard set of materials to master. The subjects, the contents, could and will take a lifetime to learn and apply and grow in - and I'd contend that the purpose of what we're taught in the Bible New Testament isn't to make us lifelong students who must be incessantly reminded of what we've learned lest we forget - and sure we all need to be refreshed and reminded of things - but the intention is for us to live the LIFE that God gives us through Christ and insodoing - live. Learn, grow and enjoy. The best way to stay on track in our new life is to mmmm......live in it. I don't look at it and want to be more like it - I'm "it". I just need to remember to be the Me God has made me.
Now then to the question of witnessing - for me it was
1. share the knowledge of who Christ is and what He means
2. share specifics of how God wants us to live and what that life means and looks like
3. Guide people to the Bible which is where they'll learn more about all this
4. Sign 'em up! for PFAL!
As time went on I do think the goal of ONLY signing people up became part of the problem - yet even then all the years I was involved in the Way including the early years, the Corps and working there on Staff after, I was always compelled to HELP PEOPLE through my direct contact.
Still and all, when I travelled with the Way the number one measure of success was the 'signed green card' - and unlike many of the more loud mouthed swaggering "leaders" in the Way who never left the comfort of a well organized meeting lectern or living room where they could pontificate and bloviate all night - I did sign up people for PFAL. LOTS of people and by traveling throughout the entire country, every major city and every place the Way had people large and small, over several years, I put my money where my mouth was and didn't just tell people what THEY should be doing and blaming them when they failed for not "BELIEVING BIG ENOUGH".
My prayer is that in that effort they got enough of the love and learned what to do with it. It's been a long haul.
Edited by socksYou've come a long way, Pilgrim!...."Feels like far"......Were it worth the trouble!?....."Ahuh? What trouble....?"
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GeorgeStGeorge
II Cor. 4:5: For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your servants for Jesus's sake.
To me, this is the heart of witnessing. Sadly, witnessing in TWI became preaching ourselves. Instead of reaching out to the person on the street to show him how Christ can meet his needs, we just invited him to come to our fellowship. If he came, he might learn something useful; but if not, we missed a chance to change his life.
George
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Junior Corps Surviver
I always felt like it was high pressure sales with quotas. Even in the 70's. Our hearts might have been in the right place but we would be in "trouble", especially as a WOW (twice) if we weren't constantly running classes. Hence the homeless, addicts and others who were there for the food and kisses. But that was my experience.
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socks
Yes, there was plenty of that.
For me it boiled down to this - Just as salvation was personal for me it will be personal for others. It can't be mass produced, we're all a crowd of "one's
Jesus is "the way", described as the door, the gate, the means by which...
Like a door, everyone can't go through at once, all the pushing and shoving in the world will only create a bottleneck. Everyone goes through singly and then everyone can get through. And in that way there's plenty of access, even as we do find ourselves in the arc of a timeline. Time is of the essence but it doesn't control the rules or God's intentions and plan.
It's personal, individual - me and Jesus Christ, us and God.
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socks
It's kind of an anachronism now but lest I forget Corps training (by and around the 4th Corps) included a sales course and a public speaking course, both taught by Bill Maize. Bill was a certified Dale Carnegie instructor, a PFAL grad and taught the Carnegie material with a specific eye on what we were doing which included teaching, witnessing and of course, signing people up for PFAL.
Over time I think Bill's teaching and overall approach were excellent and have held up. I've continued my education in general business and some specific technical fields, completed 100's of hours of CE - continuing education - to increase and refresh my skills and knowledge, facilitated 100's more in my career work and specialized at times in training others in topics like Workflows & Analysis and UXP testing (user experience) related to client-side application development. Plus I've got 1000's of hours of public speaking under my belt teaching on the Bible, Christianity, "sermonizing" and otherwise pontificating on any number of related topics
and as a musician taught music and performed all my life (less so these last 30 years or so). For my time and money, Bill Maize taught material that I've used over and over throughout the years and been able to build on. At one time I did fairly well in sales related fields and jobs and the Carnegie concepts served me as did many of the specific methods when they were reapplied and tailored to other settings. For me the combination of Sales and Public Speaking gave me something I think others might have ignored - an approach to communicating with others that helped me learn about others and understand them. The "sales" part for me was defined immediately by the statement we learned - "a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still".....so I took the idea of "selling something" through manipulation off the table....I could see that even the most needy person would only go along with something they didn't really want for so long and by continuing expose themselves to possible damage....anything close to full valid acceptance requires more than just accommodating a weakness or need with promises....
And for many the promise of a group of people who suddenly liked you or at the least put up with you, wanted you to hang with them and who were interested in you and what you did and what you needed was pretty heady stuff. And that alone can be a healing balm, to be accepted for who you are - and in Christian thinking for who God wants you to be, but without the the emotional and physical debt of guilt, judgment and condemnation. Free - "free at last!" to be ourselves in God's creation.
The Carnegie material is still represented and offered in varying formats by many training and trade groups and the content is refreshed of course. For me years ago, was it really necessary? No, not really. Any caring person willing to take the time to meet others and get to know them with the intent to help them with their friendship and what they know will do most of the important stuff - invest their time, listen, be patient, try to understand, etc. etc. BUT it did something very important for me personally, gave me time and methods to help me learn to communicate and express myself better with others, and start that lifelong journey of doing so.
Where all this went south IMO was taking any of it and pushing it into some pre-fab format of quotas and measurements to "get people in the Class".....even if it's vacuums there's always going to be a report of "how many did you sell" but from the human side the report will really say "how many people were helped with the products"?.....
Even writing this it sickens me to remember sitting with some of the fk-tard "leaders" sitting on someone else's couch in their home drinking their coffee and yelling at them for not "getting enough signups to start a CLASS!!!!"
Sad.
But it's all blue skies and berry pies today! PTL! Free!!! Free at last!!!!
Edited by socksTo edit.
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T-Bone
Speaking of Bill Maize - I still remember the memory peg system (uhm some of it anyway): 1 run, 2 zoo...and I agree on the useful stuff of what he taught - for me it wasn’t sales but in public speaking and technical training - I used to train installers and service technicians and sometimes had to make short instruction videos for end-users and sometimes “technically inept“ CEOs.
Edited by T-BoneRevision
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waysider
Well, we called it "witnessing", but what we were really doing was not too different than what the vinyl siding guy does when he knocks on your door to tell you about the sale of a lifetime that you can't afford to miss. The only difference is the siding guy actually gets a commission.
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WordWolf
For a number of years, I'm aware that twi's way corps taught their students the entire contents of the Dale Carnegie Sales Training course without paying any licensing fees to the company- nor any other fee, for that matter. Does anyone know if they still cheat Dale Carnegie to this day?
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socks
Never heard of that, where'd you become aware of that? It may have been after they opened Emporia, and/or after Bill Maize taught the classes at the Way Nash. His son was also a certified Carnegie instructor and I believe Bill Sr's territory continued through to his son. There wasn't any such conflict with the material that Bill Maize taught. I've worked with other licensed/certified instructors of licensed course work who customized courses for companies and developed offerings for them.
Edited by socksI always like to double check my work, just to see if - you know, there's anything I missed the first time.
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WordWolf
I'd heard that here, with no names attached to the story. I'd heard that some graduate of the DC course had been reteaching the material without notifying DC nor paying royalties, at vpw's order. Since this was completely how vpw did things, it didn't surprise me one bit- except, possibly, that it was still known by the name of the originating material and not some new program vpw and God concocted together in a church basement while vpw ate grapes while miraculous snow fell, or something. Then again, too many people knew that's where the material was from, so he couldn't hide the name without making it obvious he was doing that- which would reveal he was capable of plagiarizing the work of others, and he didn't WANT to get caught or even suspected. I also know lcm said that vpw complained that too many corps weren't REALLY committed, and were just in it to learn the DC course material (lcm said so in "vp and me.") It's amazing how many things vpw found to complain about when it came to the wc students while he had them on-grounds and paying and doing manual labor- but never found any reason to make the program more selective, drawing fewer numbers but also less tuition and fewer bodies to perform manual labor while paying for the privilege.
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WordWolf
I did a little checking in some of the old threads. Without checking everything, it appears that the way corps incorporated DC early on, in different versions. Forst, DC's famous book was required reading. Then some techniques from there were taught to be used for "witnessing." Then a grad of DC's course was in twi, and he began teaching a twi "version" of the material (again, with neither credit nor licensing fees nor notice given to the organization that owned all the rights.) HCW made a passing comment about having actual DC trainers show up on grounds, but I've found technical problems with some of his accounts before, so perhaps he was misinformed about twi actually paying for a DC trainer to show up and train. On the other hand, it is POSSIBLE they did. It is inconsistent with twi policy, however. (Plagiarize what you can, use without paying anything you can.) Having seen they were already using DC material and getting away with doing it for free, I have a hard time picturing vpw deciding to do the morally-responsible- and EXPENSIVE- thing and giving both due credit AND MONEY to DC. IF it happened, there would have to be one HECK of a story behind it- something elaborate with wc people setting it all up in secret, or something.
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socks
I'm not sure what that's all about, so perhaps is someone else's memory of something else. There may have been something that went on before the Corps course offerings, perhaps that was even what brought Maize into the picture, although his history with PFAL wasn't a secret to at that time.
The Dale Carnegie courses I received taught by Bill Maize were when he was a licensed/certified to instruct Carnegie courses in a territory in Ohio where he could offer the Carnegie courses as a Carnegie instructor. None of the materials or the class in toto were relabeled Wayfer versions under different names and presenters, and we got copies of the Carnegie books and materials. (my wife recently crossed professional paths with an educational/trade organization that offers some current work by the Carnegie group and I found a copy of a small Carnegie Booklet we still have from 1973, that she had signed her name inside of, and it gave them quite a chuckle to hear that)
I understood Bill's courses on Public Speaking and Sales Techniques were based fully on his material which was based of course on the original books and material of Carnegie. It began with the First Corps and were offered in each Corps thereafter, to the 4th I was in. I believe it was offered then to at least the 5th and "Family Corps" at the Way Nash, under Bill's teaching but I wasn't in the "residence" program at that time, I was on staff in the first iteration of the "interim" year. It may have then been offered after in whatever forms, but I wasn't there attending any of them so can't say what they did first hand.
Whatever financial arrangements the Way had with Bill Maize I don't know, his expenses were likely covered and he probably received a fee or honorarium of some sort per student, but he may have also done it gratis or at a reduced fee. Guys like John Somerville who began TFI (The Total Fitness Institute) in the 70's arranged with VPW to have Way Corps come in for outdoor climbing, survival and "leadership" training classes and he received a fee for each Corps person in the early groups that went to help with expenses (he told us when the 4th Corps had the option to go) and he also got at least a day or so of work/labor out of each person to help doing odd chores and tasks for building his camp and cabin, although it was a pretty disorganized affair at times that I was there over two weeks. I mention that to say that over the years VPW cut arrangements with lots of people to barter/trade, that I know and there's probably many others too I'm not, of course. But with Bill Maize it was a straightforward class he taught on prem, one night a week over several weeks, with exercises and assignments we were required to complete successfully. I remember this even more specifically because one of my wife's speeches/presentations was selected to be included in a Sunday Night Service, it was about 5 minutes I believe and was one of two that were picked that week that exemplified the stuff we were learning. She even remembers that to this day.
Wuddelse - so, Maize's courses with us weren't secret or anything remotely clandestine. The finances weren't an additional fee for the Corps as we paid tuition/sponsorship to be in the live/work program as it was outlined that year, and whatever Bill and VPW had arranged was between them.
Edited by socksThat doesn't really work, does it?...did you try...shouldn't it be a bit more...or this?...This...! Yes...better? What do you think?
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frank123lol
Now?Possibly not as this city fellowship is the same of 21 years ago.Family corp 6th corp and some ole ground maintaince guy and his fam.
I speak but it is like freely give freely share.
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chockfull
Old thread but good one. Dale Carnegie materials continued to be used through Way Corps 2 training (I think they are labeling it Way 4 now). Nobody was certified, Martindale plagiarized and re taught the material as Corps training.
Witnessing as a term in the way is the exact same cult construct as the Jehovahs Witnesses. Members are required to provide service. Through direct leadership messaging and peer pressure. Service is door to door witnessing inviting people to a class presentation usually.
Leaders are trained in getting people witnessing and signing people up for classes.
Totally different concept from the one on the Bible of people living their faith and that garnering attention, but that concept was always gaslighted. Leaders said that was what they were doing.
Okay then why the need for full coverage vacuum cleaner sales tactics?
Really life becomes much more free in Christ when people stop looking at others as a means to an end.
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chockfull
In fact if you notice lurkers in cars in your neighborhoods mapping out addresses you can be assured they are either vacuum or magazine sales, Jehovahs Witnesses, or Way Corpse.
Except the percentages for Way Corpse have kind of dropped a tad over the years.
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Rocky
Great point.
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