How do you define someone, newly coming on the scene? Is the someone newly coming on the scene from outer space, raised by wolves, created in a lab? I am not making fun – you pose an interesting scenario. Or did you have some other hypothetical situation in mind?
Not sure what you’re looking for – so I decided to reflect on my own journey and share a few thoughts – hopefully it brings something to the table and touches a few relevant points of your thought provoking post.
I first came into this world I viewed my mother – and gradually my father as gods – they were all powerful – they were everything to me – and maybe I was not even aware I was separate from them...eventually I figured out somehow I was distinct from them...I followed in the belief system of my parents (Roman Catholic) – their belief system attempted to explain how the world works...as a teenager I got caught up in the counterculture of the 60s and 70s, got into the arts and music, experimented with drugs, looked into Eastern religions, E.S.P., dated a girl who went to Twig, took the PFAL class, yada yada yada WOW, Way Corps, discovered wierwille was a thief, liar and sexual predator so I escaped from crazy town…this began my crisis of faith and loosed me into uncharted waters.
I took everything back to square one and asked myself do I believe there is a God? To put it another way I asked myself do I believe this whole thing is an accident or is there a creator? Being a technical minded person it seemed logical and now also learning to be more intuitive it felt comforting to imagine there was some intelligence or higher power behind it all...so going forward from my crisis of faith in 1986, I’ll relate some of my journey thus far to your scenarios of repairing an engine and finding a PFAL book and determining if it had any validity or not.
When I first got married I had a Ford 3-speed Econoline Van and my wife had a VW Beetle. Having a good mechanical aptitude (and learned a lot helping my Dad, older brother and friends work on their cars) – and also out of necessity – I did all the maintenance and repairs on both vehicles. Back then we didn’t have a handy thing like the Internet and You Tube – but there was The Bible of auto repairs – The Chilton’s Auto Repair Manuals with editions that were specific to your year, make and model...I’ve replaced clutches, rebuilt carburetors, replaced timing chains, done tune-ups, replaced brakes, and a lot of electrical troubleshooting.
Now a flimsy attempt to tie this all together with what you brought up.
I think we all have an innate desire to make sense of the world and figure out how best to negotiate our way through life. From an early age we learn so many valuable and practical things about life – wherever we’re from. Depending on how much we pay attention we learn to sort through what works and what doesn’t work. Like my experiences with working on cars. Like the first time I changed the oil on my 67 Chevy Malibu. I was in a hurry and didn’t tighten the bolt that goes through the oil filter - - oops - so I left a thick trail of oil in the driveway and down the block – good thing my brother flagged me down...Some shortcuts don't work out so good .
So lets say I find a PFAL book. I know nothing about the author and I know very little about the Bible. Which describes what I was like when I first took PFAL. One red flag would be the stuff on the law of believing. Reality doesn’t work like that – magical thinking is a phony shortcut to success - and I’m assuming there’s no aggressive snake oil salesmen around to convince me otherwise...other issues might pop up if and when my technical nature would kick in and I decide to study up on the biblical languages and other “technical references” such as systematic theologies, commentaries, Bible studies, etc. and use good analytical skills to spot logical fallacies...you know, any book by itself might seem okay. But in the grand scheme of things - how does it fit in? How big is "the grand scheme"? What's the big picture? My idea of the big picture seems to be getting bigger all the time.
well...anyway...that’s just me – and as I said I’m on a journey through uncharted waters – and I’m a lot more open minded to other belief systems now...Reading (and re-reading) Jean Shinoda Bolen's short but insightful book "The Tao of Psychology: Synchronicity and the Self" got me into wanting to understand not only more about Taoism but also Jungian psychology. Carl Jung was a research scientist fascinated with the similar concerns found in many religions and the nature of the self...the guiding principles of my journey are partly intuitive and partly analytical. I am still inspired by the Word of God but I’m seeing things on a broader spectrum now after reading Rob Bell’s "Love Wins". After reading that book - God seems so much more relatable...Jesus Christ seems much more ...pervasive...expansive..."Love Wins" is probably one of the most thought provoking and thought challenging books I've read in a long time!
As far as what criteria would I use to choose a religion - I would look at how they deal with the human condition - if they seemed fair, practical and above all compassionate. I would choose the one that came closest to doing those things extremely well.
thanks for your thoughtful post - it really got me thinking about a lot of things
How do you define someone, newly coming on the scene? Is the someone newly coming on the scene from outer space, raised by wolves, created in a lab? I am not making fun – you pose an interesting scenario. Or did you have some other hypothetical situation in mind?
Newly coming on the scene: This would be a person who had never heard anything at all about The Way. They were never exposed to all the negative or positive information about the group. They were starting a new in their quest to figure out which of the 41,000 Christian groups was the one for them. Many currently today dismiss the teachings of the Way because they were plagiarized, or the because founder used women sexually, or the Way demanded tithes many could not afford. But if the new seeker had no knowledge of any of this, and only read the 10 page booklet, where would their beliefs fall amoung the other 39,999? Would Jesus Christ is Not God seem an acceptable doctrine? Would speaking in tongues be high or low the acceptable beliefs? What have the other 39,999 religions taught on this. My point is if we judged the teachings of the Way strictly on their doctrines and not the character of its leaders, would it rate in the top 15,000?
We judge the teaching of the Way from the perspective of the major Christian religions in the West. What about all the other Christian religions we are not aware of?
Quote
Not sure what you’re looking for – so I decided to reflect on my own journey and share a few thoughts – hopefully it brings something to the table and touches a few relevant points of your thought provoking post.
I first came into this world I viewed my mother – and gradually my father as gods – they were all powerful – they were everything to me – and maybe I was not even aware I was separate from them...eventually I figured out somehow I was distinct from them...I followed in the belief system of my parents (Roman Catholic) – their belief system attempted to explain how the world works...as a teenager I got caught up in the counterculture of the 60s and 70s, got into the arts and music, experimented with drugs, looked into Eastern religions, E.S.P., dated a girl who went to Twig, took the PFAL class, yada yada yada WOW, Way Corps, discovered wierwille was a thief, liar and sexual predator so I escaped from crazy town…this began my crisis of faith and loosed me into uncharted waters.
I took everything back to square one and asked myself do I believe there is a God? To put it another way I asked myself do I believe this whole thing is an accident or is there a creator? Being a technical minded person it seemed logical and now also learning to be more intuitive it felt comforting to imagine there was some intelligence or higher power behind it all...so going forward from my crisis of faith in 1986, I’ll relate some of my journey thus far to your scenarios of repairing an engine and finding a PFAL book and determining if it had any validity or not.
When I first got married I had a Ford 3-speed Econoline Van and my wife had a VW Beetle. Having a good mechanical aptitude (and learned a lot helping my Dad, older brother and friends work on their cars) – and also out of necessity – I did all the maintenance and repairs on both vehicles. Back then we didn’t have a handy thing like the Internet and You Tube – but there was The Bible of auto repairs – The Chilton’s Auto Repair Manuals with editions that were specific to your year, make and model...I’ve replaced clutches, rebuilt carburetors, replaced timing chains, done tune-ups, replaced brakes, and a lot of electrical troubleshooting. We judge it from the perspective of
My point about the the auto repair is there is only one way to replace a clutch or rebuild a carburator. But there are unlimited ways to get to heaven according to different religions. Which one is absolutely correct? Are you sure your way is really right? What if you die and find your way us wrong? Catholics say you better not have a mortal sin or you are doomed. Some say you confess once and you have no worries. Others go back and pray for their dead ancestors so they can sneak in. Others say you will come back reincarnated.
What the other major religions teach I have no idea, but what if the religion practiced in the rain forest is the actual one God setup to get you to heaven? We all have missed the boat. See you in hell.
Now a flimsy attempt to tie this all together with what you brought up.
I think we all have an innate desire to make sense of the world and figure out how best to negotiate our way through life. From an early age we learn so many valuable and practical things about life – wherever we’re from. Depending on how much we pay attention we learn to sort through what works and what doesn’t work. Like my experiences with working on cars. Like the first time I changed the oil on my 67 Chevy Malibu. I was in a hurry and didn’t tighten the bolt that goes through the oil filter - - oops - so I left a thick trail of oil in the driveway and down the block – good thing my brother flagged me down...Some shortcuts don't work out so good .
So lets say I find a PFAL book. I know nothing about the author and I know very little about the Bible. Which describes what I was like when I first took PFAL. One red flag would be the stuff on the law of believing. Reality doesn’t work like that – magical thinking is a phony shortcut to success - and I’m assuming there’s no aggressive snake oil salesmen around to convince me otherwise...other issues might pop up if and when my technical nature would kick in and I decide to study up on the biblical languages and other “technical references” such as systematic theologies, commentaries, Bible studies, etc. and use good analytical skills to spot logical fallacies...you know, any book by itself might seem okay. But in the grand scheme of things - how does it fit in? How big is "the grand scheme"? What's the big picture? My idea of the big picture seems to be getting bigger all the time.
There are people who profess that believing in God is nothing more than magical thinking. As we grew up we realized santa clause, tooth fairy, and Easter bunny do not exist. But we will just not let go of god. We can prove there is no tooth fairy by putting a tooth under our pillow, and observing it all night. In the morning the rotting tooth will still be under the pillow. How can you prove because Jesus Christ lived you have the opportunity to go to heaven? Other than it being taught through the ages how do you know for sure?
Quote
well...anyway...that’s just me – and as I said I’m on a journey through uncharted waters – and I’m a lot more open minded to other belief systems now...Reading (and re-reading) Jean Shinoda Bolen's short but insightful book "The Tao of Psychology: Synchronicity and the Self" got me into wanting to understand not only more about Taoism but also Jungian psychology. Carl Jung was a research scientist fascinated with the similar concerns found in many religions and the nature of the self...the guiding principles of my journey are partly intuitive and partly analytical. I am still inspired by the Word of God but I’m seeing things on a broader spectrum now after reading Rob Bell’s "Love Wins". After reading that book - God seems so much more relatable...Jesus Christ seems much more ...pervasive...expansive..."Love Wins" is probably one of the most thought provoking and thought challenging books I've read in a long time!
As far as what criteria would I use to choose a religion - I would look at how they deal with the human condition - if they seemed fair, practical and above all compassionate. I would choose the one that came closest to doing those things extremely well.
thanks for your thoughtful post - it really got me thinking about a lot of things
Newly coming on the scene: This would be a person who had never heard anything at all about The Way. They were never exposed to all the negative or positive information about the group. They were starting a new in their quest to figure out which of the 41,000 Christian groups was the one for them. Many currently today dismiss the teachings of the Way because they were plagiarized, or the because founder used women sexually, or the Way demanded tithes many could not afford. But if the new seeker had no knowledge of any of this, and only read the 10 page booklet, where would their beliefs fall amoung the other 39,999? Would Jesus Christ is Not God seem an acceptable doctrine? Would speaking in tongues be high or low the acceptable beliefs? What have the other 39,999 religions taught on this. My point is if we judged the teachings of the Way strictly on their doctrines and not the character of its leaders, would it rate in the top 15,000?
We judge the teaching of the Way from the perspective of the major Christian religions in the West.
What about all the other Christian religions we are not aware of?
Well now that you’ve clarified what you’re looking for, I can cut to the chase – it’s a three part answer.
Part A - doctrine: The Way International’s window-dressing-doctrine is a somewhat innocuous blend of fundamentalism, ultradispensationalism, spiritualism and Gnosticism. Probably no different than some of the other groups out there…now their inner sanctum stuff of dubious teachings like the law of believing/health and wealth scam and all that whacked out $hit in the advanced class may distinguish them somewhat in a who’s who of nonsense-to-waste-your-time-and-money-groups….but overall none of that is my cup of tea now anyway - so TWI wouldn’t be very high on my preference list. But that’s just me.
Part B - practice: What makes The Way International a harmful exploitative cult and a really bad choice out of the list of Christian groups are their methods. Their hypocrisy, secrecy and money grubbing practices indicates a serious disconnect from their window-dressing-doctrine.
( * and it's debatable if they should even be considered a Christian group )
Part C - spiritual journey in progress: I've already expressed in my previous post I haven't figured it all out and I continue to check out a lot of things.
Quote
There are people who profess that believing in God is nothing more than magical thinking. As we grew up we realized santa clause, tooth fairy, and Easter bunny do not exist. But we will just not let go of god. We can prove there is no tooth fairy by putting a tooth under our pillow, and observing it all night. In the morning the rotting tooth will still be under the pillow. How can you prove because Jesus Christ lived you have the opportunity to go to heaven? Other than it being taught through the ages how do you know for sure?
Technically there is a difference between a faith in God and magical thinking.
Faith in God simply means God is the OBJECT of our faith – our thoughts, our feelings are directed toward him. Faith is a strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof...I mean it's faith - what more do you want ?
With magical thinking, thoughts and feelings are directed toward some event or future event, object or person:
“Magical thinking, or superstitious thinking, is the belief that unrelated events are causally connected despite the absence of any plausible causal link between them, particularly as a result of supernatural effects…Examples include the idea that personal thoughts can influence the external world without acting on them...In psychology, magical thinking is the belief that one's thoughts by themselves can bring about effects in the world or that thinking something corresponds with doing it. “
Well now that you’ve clarified what you’re looking for, I can cut to the chase – it’s a three part answer.
Part A - doctrine: The Way International’s window-dressing-doctrine is a somewhat innocuous blend of fundamentalism, ultradispensationalism, spiritualism and Gnosticism. Probably no different than some of the other groups out there…now their inner sanctum stuff of dubious teachings like the law of believing/health and wealth scam and all that whacked out $hit in the advanced class may distinguish them somewhat in a who’s who of nonsense-to-waste-your-time-and-money-groups….but overall none of that is my cup of tea now anyway - so TWI wouldn’t be very high on my preference list. But that’s just me.
Part B - practice: What makes The Way International a harmful exploitative cult and a really bad choice out of the list of Christian groups are their methods. Their hypocrisy, secrecy and money grubbing practices indicates a serious disconnect from their window-dressing-doctrine.
( * and it's debatable if they should even be considered a Christian group )
Part C - spiritual journey in progress: I've already expressed in my previous post I haven't figured it all out and I continue to check out a lot of things.
Technically there is a difference between a faith in God and magical thinking.
Faith in God simply means God is the OBJECT of our faith – our thoughts, our feelings are directed toward him. Faith is a strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof...I mean it's faith - what more do you want ?
With magical thinking, thoughts and feelings are directed toward some event or future event, object or person:
“Magical thinking, or superstitious thinking, is the belief that unrelated events are causally connected despite the absence of any plausible causal link between them, particularly as a result of supernatural effects…Examples include the idea that personal thoughts can influence the external world without acting on them...In psychology, magical thinking is the belief that one's thoughts by themselves can bring about effects in the world or that thinking something corresponds with doing it. “
Let’s take the return of Jesus as an example. It fits perfectly with “the belief that unrelated events are casually connected despite the absence of any plausible casual link betweem them.” What plausible casual link can you provide it is going to happen, other than being proposed in a book written thousands of years ago? Is there scientific evidence it will take place?
Let’s exam Moses parting the Dead Sea. Other than it being declared in the bible, is there any other proof it took place? Has anything of that magnitude been seen by anyone in the last century?
What of Jesus being raised from the dead? Again, other than the bible, has anyone witnessed others being brought back to life after being entombed for three days?
I have not heard of anyone saying that when their boat capsized, they walked to shore. What evidence can you present that this happened? These are all stories that have been passed along, just like the one of Santa leaving gifts to all good boys and girls on Dec 24. No evidence they have happened, or will happen, sometime in the future.
from the perspective of faith, a person acknowledges they are not God and in fact need God’s help.
With magical thinking, God is not needed. It’s all up to you and you alone.
Let’s take the return of Jesus as an example. It fits perfectly with “the belief that unrelated events are casually connected despite the absence of any plausible casual link betweem them.”
What plausible casual link can you provide it is going to happen, other than being proposed in a book written thousands of years ago? Is there scientific evidence it will take place?
Let’s exam Moses parting the Dead Sea. Other than it being declared in the bible, is there any other proof it took place? Has anything of that magnitude been seen by anyone in the last century?
What of Jesus being raised from the dead? Again, other than the bible, has anyone witnessed others being brought back to life after being entombed for three days?
I have not heard of anyone saying that when their boat capsized, they walked to shore. What evidence can you present that this happened?
These are all stories that have been passed along, just like the one of Santa leaving gifts to all good boys and girls on Dec 24. No evidence they have happened, or will happen, sometime in the future.
you are confusing an article of faith – which is a firmly held belief (like the belief in the return of Jesus Christ) with magical thinking.
I will address your request for a plausible link that JC’s return is going to happen after a few preparatory remarks by way of review...
So...let’s review (from my previous post):
Faith: Faith in God simply means God is the OBJECT of our faith – our thoughts, our feelings are directed toward him. Faith is a strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof
magical thinking: “Magical thinking, or superstitious thinking, is the belief that unrelated events are causally connected despite the absence of any plausible causal link between them, particularly as a result of supernatural effects…Examples include the idea that personal thoughts can influence the external world without acting on them...In psychology, magical thinking is the belief that one's thoughts by themselves can bring about effects in the world or that thinking something corresponds with doing it. “
Now to address your question I will first need to straighten out the confusion.
Is there a causal connection between my behavior, action, inaction or thoughts and the return of Jesus Christ? The answer is no. I have nothing to do with making it happen (if indeed it really is going to happen).
Do I have any proof that it is going to happen? Again no.
Do I have any proof that Jesus Christ ever existed, was born, walked the Earth, suffered and died on the cross? Once again no.
Do I have any proof that Jesus Christ was raised from the dead and ascended into heaven? No...
and to complete the rest of your inquisition I have no proof of Moses parting the Red Sea ( you said The Dead Sea ) , I’m not aware of any extra-biblical evidence of that, I’m not aware of anything of that magnitude happening or being witnessed in the last century. I have not heard of any capsized boats and the survivors walking to shore – I’m assuming you mean in deep water – cuz I have just the story of being on a canoe with my drunk friends – and Steve who didn’t have his sea legs - - I mean river legs – tried to bust a move to impress some girls on the river bank – wound up tipping the canoe over...river was only 3 feet deep...and of course we walked through the water and not on it to drag the canoe ashore. Don’t think the girls were impressed.
I just have to say, the title of this thread and your first and second post were a little misleading. I’m not complaining just making an observation. I know I can go all over the map (and I often do ...and be forewarned it might happen again because I'm easily distracted ) but it doesn’t help when I’m confused on what direction you want to go. First I thought you were wanting to talk about the 41,000 Christian groups and how does one decide on which group, beliefs, etc...then it was what about all the other religions...then how do you know there even is a God...then can you judge TWI doctrine apart from their modus operandi...then back to what proof do you have that anything mentioned in the Bible really happened...okay – I get it now, you really wanted to have a philosophical discussion about “why do you believe in a God at all?” (quoting from your first post). I thought I answered that in my first post but I will reiterate my reason here – because I want to.
you are confusing an article of faith – which is a firmly held belief (like the belief in the return of Jesus Christ) with magical thinking.
I will address your request for a plausible link that JC’s return is going to happen after a few preparatory remarks by way of review...
So...let’s review (from my previous post):
Faith: Faith in God simply means God is the OBJECT of our faith – our thoughts, our feelings are directed toward him. Faith is a strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof
magical thinking: “Magical thinking, or superstitious thinking, is the belief that unrelated events are causally connected despite the absence of any plausible causal link between them, particularly as a result of supernatural effects…Examples include the idea that personal thoughts can influence the external world without acting on them...In psychology, magical thinking is the belief that one's thoughts by themselves can bring about effects in the world or that thinking something corresponds with doing it. “
Now to address your question I will first need to straighten out the confusion.
Is there a causal connection between my behavior, action, inaction or thoughts and the return of Jesus Christ? The answer is no. I have nothing to do with making it happen (if indeed it really is going to happen).
Do I have any proof that it is going to happen? Again no.
Do I have any proof that Jesus Christ ever existed, was born, walked the Earth, suffered and died on the cross? Once again no.
Do I have any proof that Jesus Christ was raised from the dead and ascended into heaven? No...
and to complete the rest of your inquisition I have no proof of Moses parting the Red Sea ( you said The Dead Sea ) , I’m not aware of any extra-biblical evidence of that, I’m not aware of anything of that magnitude happening or being witnessed in the last century. I have not heard of any capsized boats and the survivors walking to shore – I’m assuming you mean in deep water – cuz I have just the story of being on a canoe with my drunk friends – and Steve who didn’t have his sea legs - - I mean river legs – tried to bust a move to impress some girls on the river bank – wound up tipping the canoe over...river was only 3 feet deep...and of course we walked through the water and not on it to drag the canoe ashore. Don’t think the girls were impressed.
The belief of the Easter bunny is debunked because it falls into the catagory of superstition. And the religious critetia mentioned above also fall into the catagory of superstition. But now has been put into the catagory of faith, which allows it to be “unsuperstitioned” and allowed to stand as a valid belief.
That is like saying a student must have a 3.0 gpa to attend graduate school, but somehow a 2.5 gpa is acceptable to a patticular student because a new catagory has been created just for them.
I just have to say, the title of this thread and your first and second post were a little misleading. I’m not complaining just making an observation. I know I can go all over the map (and I often do ...and be forewarned it might happen again because I'm easily distracted ) but it doesn’t help when I’m confused on what direction you want to go. First I thought you were wanting to talk about the 41,000 Christian groups and how does one decide on which group, beliefs, etc...then it was what about all the other religions...then how do you know there even is a God...then can you judge TWI doctrine apart from their modus operandi...then back to what proof do you have that anything mentioned in the Bible really happened...okay – I get it now, you really wanted to have a philosophical discussion about “why do you believe in a God at all?” (quoting from your first post). I thought I answered that in my first post but I will reiterate my reason here – because I want to.
Being there are 41,000 Christian religions, I did present how almost impossible it would be to rifle through 410,000 pages, (10 pages allowed per religion to document their beliefs), to help determine which one is correct to follow. Then after you have done that, study the other major religions of the world to include them in your decision.
It is an impossible task to undertake in a lifetime. Therefore, how did you determine, if you do practice a relgion, it declares the real beliefs of God?
The belief of the Easter bunny is debunked because it falls into the catagory of superstition. And the religious critetia mentioned above also fall into the catagory of superstition. But now has been put into the catagory of faith, which allows it to be “unsuperstitioned” and allowed to stand as a valid belief.
Okay I follow you there...I found this on Wikidiff and I think I understand what you’re saying...from Wikidiff:
"Faith: A feeling, conviction, or belief that something is true or real, not contingent upon reason or justification.
Superstition: A belief, not based on human reason or scientific knowledge, that future events may be influenced by one's behaviour in some magical or mystical way. "
"Theories and facts about religion and superstition have really been fought over since those two words were coined. Some might say the other is more credible while the other is not. Others might prove the other as truth while the other a lie. However, this write-up is not about proving and disproving but to give a list of differences between the two...While religion centers on the belief of a supreme being called God or god, superstition centers on the supernatural phenomena of this world.”
soooooo...okay – you debunked religion I guess...big deal woo whoo
1 hour ago, Stayed Too Long said:
Being there are 41,000 Christian religions, I did present how almost impossible it would be to rifle through 410,000 pages, (10 pages allowed per religion to document their beliefs), to help determine which one is correct to follow. Then after you have done that, study the other major religions of the world to include them in your decision. It is an impossible task to undertake in a lifetime. Therefore, how did you determine, if you do practice a relgion, it declares the real beliefs of God?
I’m not interested in undertaking your impossible task – nor do I think it’s necessary – and because I've already stated in my first post (which I’m reminding you of that for the second time...tap tap tap...is this mic on? ) how I determine the faith I practice….geez Louise talk about beating a dead post...uhm err..where was I? oh yeah - faith...religion...superstition...I get it, I get it - you think they’re the same thing...I tend to think there’s a nuanced difference (as I expressed in my previous post...tap tap tap...cymbalince cymbalince...1, 2, 1, 2 mic check) but anyway who cares? I don’t.
Edited by T-Bone hey kids, wanna hear a secret? computers work by magic - and mine just up and disappeared
Since the great majority of the over 41,000 ‘Christian’ denominations declare the resurrection of Jesus Christ, I will risk 'resurrecting' this dormant thread.
One of the great reasons there are so many gospels(or denominations as many people call them) is that very few people are willing to put up with God as He reveals Himself in the Bible, so they form Him to suit their desires. This involves adding to, subtracting from, changing, or just misunderstanding, the scriptures.
It is interesting that ‘faith vs superstition’ is under discussion here, because the reason I first ‘made a ripple’ here was to post a link on a thread about Acts 17 To the unknown God.Coincidentally(yeah right), Paul begins his discourse to the Athenians with superstition(v. 22), and ends with faith(v. 31).Superstition is how man makes the gods he wants, and faith is what God gives a man to allow or cause him to believe in the resurrection.
The Bible also says(Rom. 10:17) that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.A person may hear enough to have faith, but deviations in doctrines after the basic faith in the resurrection of Jesus Christ are abundant, mostly because few people are happy with God as He describes Himself, so they change Him into something else. There are also obviously some who spend time, perhaps a lifetime, in church(es) without ever being sure of the resurrection, because that's what those around them are doing.
The really good news(which is rarely preached or believed) is that Jesus Christ has been tasked with reconciling all of creation unto himself, and thereby to God. He always does the Father’s will, so we can rest assured he will not leave us hanging.
In the grand scheme of things therefore, no matter what ‘flavor’ of Christianity we end up with(or without), God’s loving arms are long enough and strong enough to catch us and hold us close.
The really good news(which is rarely preached or believed) is that Jesus Christ has been tasked with reconciling all of creation unto himself, and thereby to God. He always does the Father’s will, so we can rest assured he will not leave us hanging.
In the grand scheme of things therefore, no matter what ‘flavor’ of Christianity we end up with(or without), God’s loving arms are long enough and strong enough to catch us and hold us close.
Very good and I give you a grade of A for your post. However, God and Jesus Christ could instead give you a grade of A+. That is God's goal through his Son Jesus Christ to reconcile all, especially all of humanity under Jesus Christ his Son. And the biblical teaching book, Our Loving Savior Jesus Christ, that I wrote points this out perhaps as the main theme of the book. As an example in quoting from this book is the following in chapter 12 named "1 Corinthians 15 Resurrection from the Dead Through Jesus Christ ".
Quote
1 Corinthians 15:24-28
24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies (echthros) under his feet. 26 The last enemy (echthros) to be destroyed is death. 27 For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. (NIV®)
God has delegated all things pertaining to spiritual authority and lordship under Jesus Christ his Son. When Jesus Christ finally reaches his goal of all under his authority and rulership, then Jesus Christ will turn back this authority to God his Father, so that God may be all in all, while having a godly moral character, with obedience to God. The original Greek word for enemy, which is (echthros) or Strong’s number 2190 is used 32 times in the New Testament. It is a negative hateful word. However, there are usages of this same Greek word as stated by Jesus Christ that says to even “love your enemies (echthros)” (ASV). This is seen in Matthew 5:44, Luke 6:27 and Luke 6:35. The same usage of enemy is also in Romans 12:20, “If therefore thine enemy (echthros) should hunger, feed him; if he should thirst, give him drink;” (Darby). In Romans 12:21, “Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good”. (NIV®)
Recommended Posts
T-Bone
How do you define someone, newly coming on the scene? Is the someone newly coming on the scene from outer space, raised by wolves, created in a lab? I am not making fun – you pose an interesting scenario. Or did you have some other hypothetical situation in mind?
Not sure what you’re looking for – so I decided to reflect on my own journey and share a few thoughts – hopefully it brings something to the table and touches a few relevant points of your thought provoking post.
I first came into this world I viewed my mother – and gradually my father as gods – they were all powerful – they were everything to me – and maybe I was not even aware I was separate from them...eventually I figured out somehow I was distinct from them...I followed in the belief system of my parents (Roman Catholic) – their belief system attempted to explain how the world works...as a teenager I got caught up in the counterculture of the 60s and 70s, got into the arts and music, experimented with drugs, looked into Eastern religions, E.S.P., dated a girl who went to Twig, took the PFAL class, yada yada yada WOW, Way Corps, discovered wierwille was a thief, liar and sexual predator so I escaped from crazy town…this began my crisis of faith and loosed me into uncharted waters.
I took everything back to square one and asked myself do I believe there is a God? To put it another way I asked myself do I believe this whole thing is an accident or is there a creator? Being a technical minded person it seemed logical and now also learning to be more intuitive it felt comforting to imagine there was some intelligence or higher power behind it all...so going forward from my crisis of faith in 1986, I’ll relate some of my journey thus far to your scenarios of repairing an engine and finding a PFAL book and determining if it had any validity or not.
When I first got married I had a Ford 3-speed Econoline Van and my wife had a VW Beetle. Having a good mechanical aptitude (and learned a lot helping my Dad, older brother and friends work on their cars) – and also out of necessity – I did all the maintenance and repairs on both vehicles. Back then we didn’t have a handy thing like the Internet and You Tube – but there was The Bible of auto repairs – The Chilton’s Auto Repair Manuals with editions that were specific to your year, make and model...I’ve replaced clutches, rebuilt carburetors, replaced timing chains, done tune-ups, replaced brakes, and a lot of electrical troubleshooting.
Now a flimsy attempt
to tie this all together with what you brought up.
I think we all have an innate desire to make sense of the world and figure out how best to negotiate our way through life. From an early age we learn so many valuable and practical things about life – wherever we’re from. Depending on how much we pay attention we learn to sort through what works and what doesn’t work. Like my experiences with working on cars. Like the first time I changed the oil on my 67 Chevy Malibu. I was in a hurry and didn’t tighten the bolt that goes through the oil filter - - oops - so I left a thick trail of oil in the driveway and down the block – good thing my brother flagged me down...Some shortcuts don't work out so good
.
So lets say I find a PFAL book. I know nothing about the author and I know very little about the Bible. Which describes what I was like when I first took PFAL. One red flag would be the stuff on the law of believing. Reality doesn’t work like that – magical thinking is a phony shortcut to success - and I’m assuming there’s no aggressive snake oil salesmen around to convince me otherwise...other issues might pop up if and when my technical nature would kick in and I decide to study up on the biblical languages and other “technical references” such as systematic theologies, commentaries, Bible studies, etc. and use good analytical skills to spot logical fallacies...you know, any book by itself might seem okay. But in the grand scheme of things - how does it fit in? How big is "the grand scheme"? What's the big picture? My idea of the big picture seems to be getting bigger all the time.
well...anyway...that’s just me – and as I said I’m on a journey through uncharted waters – and I’m a lot more open minded to other belief systems now...Reading (and re-reading) Jean Shinoda Bolen's short but insightful book "The Tao of Psychology: Synchronicity and the Self" got me into wanting to understand not only more about Taoism but also Jungian psychology. Carl Jung was a research scientist fascinated with the similar concerns found in many religions and the nature of the self...the guiding principles of my journey are partly intuitive and partly analytical. I am still inspired by the Word of God but I’m seeing things on a broader spectrum now after reading Rob Bell’s "Love Wins". After reading that book - God seems so much more relatable...Jesus Christ seems much more ...pervasive...expansive..."Love Wins" is probably one of the most thought provoking and thought challenging books I've read in a long time!
As far as what criteria would I use to choose a religion - I would look at how they deal with the human condition - if they seemed fair, practical and above all compassionate. I would choose the one that came closest to doing those things extremely well.
thanks for your thoughtful post - it really got me thinking about a lot of things
peace !
Edited by T-Boneformatting & typos & rethinking
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Stayed Too Long
Newly coming on the scene: This would be a person who had never heard anything at all about The Way. They were never exposed to all the negative or positive information about the group. They were starting a new in their quest to figure out which of the 41,000 Christian groups was the one for them. Many currently today dismiss the teachings of the Way because they were plagiarized, or the because founder used women sexually, or the Way demanded tithes many could not afford. But if the new seeker had no knowledge of any of this, and only read the 10 page booklet, where would their beliefs fall amoung the other 39,999? Would Jesus Christ is Not God seem an acceptable doctrine? Would speaking in tongues be high or low the acceptable beliefs? What have the other 39,999 religions taught on this. My point is if we judged the teachings of the Way strictly on their doctrines and not the character of its leaders, would it rate in the top 15,000?
We judge the teaching of the Way from the perspective of the major Christian religions in the West. What about all the other Christian religions we are not aware of?
There are people who profess that believing in God is nothing more than magical thinking. As we grew up we realized santa clause, tooth fairy, and Easter bunny do not exist. But we will just not let go of god. We can prove there is no tooth fairy by putting a tooth under our pillow, and observing it all night. In the morning the rotting tooth will still be under the pillow. How can you prove because Jesus Christ lived you have the opportunity to go to heaven? Other than it being taught through the ages how do you know for sure?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
Well now that you’ve clarified what you’re looking for, I can cut to the chase – it’s a three part answer.
Part A - doctrine: The Way International’s window-dressing-doctrine is a somewhat innocuous blend of fundamentalism, ultradispensationalism, spiritualism and Gnosticism. Probably no different than some of the other groups out there…now their inner sanctum stuff of dubious teachings like the law of believing/health and wealth scam and all that whacked out $hit in the advanced class may distinguish them somewhat in a who’s who of nonsense-to-waste-your-time-and-money-groups
….but overall none of that is my cup of tea now anyway - so TWI wouldn’t be very high on my preference list. But that’s just me.
Part B - practice: What makes The Way International a harmful exploitative cult and a really bad choice out of the list of Christian groups are their methods. Their hypocrisy, secrecy and money grubbing practices indicates a serious disconnect from their window-dressing-doctrine.
( * and it's debatable if they should even be considered a Christian group
)
Part C - spiritual journey in progress: I've already expressed in my previous post I haven't figured it all out and I continue to check out a lot of things.
Technically there is a difference between a faith in God and magical thinking.
Faith in God simply means God is the OBJECT of our faith – our thoughts, our feelings are directed toward him. Faith is a strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof...I mean it's faith - what more do you want ?
With magical thinking, thoughts and feelings are directed toward some event or future event, object or person:
“Magical thinking, or superstitious thinking, is the belief that unrelated events are causally connected despite the absence of any plausible causal link between them, particularly as a result of supernatural effects…Examples include the idea that personal thoughts can influence the external world without acting on them...In psychology, magical thinking is the belief that one's thoughts by themselves can bring about effects in the world or that thinking something corresponds with doing it. “
from Wikipedia - magical thinking
from the perspective of faith, a person acknowledges they are not God and in fact need God’s help.
With magical thinking, God is not needed. It’s all up to you and you alone.
Edited by T-Boneformatting & typos
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Stayed Too Long
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
you are confusing an article of faith – which is a firmly held belief (like the belief in the return of Jesus Christ) with magical thinking.
I will address your request for a plausible link that JC’s return is going to happen after a few preparatory remarks by way of review...
So...let’s review (from my previous post):
Faith: Faith in God simply means God is the OBJECT of our faith – our thoughts, our feelings are directed toward him. Faith is a strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof
magical thinking: “Magical thinking, or superstitious thinking, is the belief that unrelated events are causally connected despite the absence of any plausible causal link between them, particularly as a result of supernatural effects…Examples include the idea that personal thoughts can influence the external world without acting on them...In psychology, magical thinking is the belief that one's thoughts by themselves can bring about effects in the world or that thinking something corresponds with doing it. “
Now to address your question I will first need to straighten out the confusion.
Is there a causal connection between my behavior, action, inaction or thoughts and the return of Jesus Christ? The answer is no. I have nothing to do with making it happen (if indeed it really is going to happen).
Do I have any proof that it is going to happen? Again no.
Do I have any proof that Jesus Christ ever existed, was born, walked the Earth, suffered and died on the cross? Once again no.
Do I have any proof that Jesus Christ was raised from the dead and ascended into heaven? No...
and to complete the rest of your inquisition I have no proof of Moses parting the Red Sea ( you said The Dead Sea ) , I’m not aware of any extra-biblical evidence of that, I’m not aware of anything of that magnitude happening or being witnessed in the last century. I have not heard of any capsized boats and the survivors walking to shore – I’m assuming you mean in deep water – cuz I have just the story of being on a canoe with my drunk friends – and Steve who didn’t have his
sea legs- - I mean river legs – tried to bust a move to impress some girls on the river bank – wound up tipping the canoe over...river was only 3 feet deep...and of course we walked through the water and not on it to drag the canoe ashore. Don’t think the girls were impressed.I just have to say, the title of this thread and your first and second post were a little misleading. I’m not complaining just making an observation. I know I can go all over the map (and I often do
...and be forewarned it might happen again because I'm easily distracted 
) but it doesn’t help when I’m confused on what direction you want to go. First I thought you were wanting to talk about the 41,000 Christian groups and how does one decide on which group, beliefs, etc...then it was what about all the other religions...then how do you know there even is a God...then can you judge TWI doctrine apart from their modus operandi...then back to what proof do you have that anything mentioned in the Bible really happened...okay – I get it now, you really wanted to have a philosophical discussion about “why do you believe in a God at all?” (quoting from your first post). I thought I answered that in my first post but I will reiterate my reason here – because I want to.
Edited by T-Boneformatting & typos
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Stayed Too Long
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
Okay I follow you there...I found this on Wikidiff and I think I understand what you’re saying...from Wikidiff:
"Faith: A feeling, conviction, or belief that something is true or real, not contingent upon reason or justification.
Superstition: A belief, not based on human reason or scientific knowledge, that future events may be influenced by one's behaviour in some magical or mystical way. "
And on another website ( difference between.net ) I found this:
"Theories and facts about religion and superstition have really been fought over since those two words were coined. Some might say the other is more credible while the other is not. Others might prove the other as truth while the other a lie. However, this write-up is not about proving and disproving but to give a list of differences between the two...While religion centers on the belief of a supreme being called God or god, superstition centers on the supernatural phenomena of this world.”
soooooo...okay – you debunked religion I guess...big deal woo whoo
I’m not interested in undertaking your impossible task – nor do I think it’s necessary – and because I've already stated in my first post (which I’m reminding you of that for the second time...tap tap tap...is this mic on? ) how I determine the faith I practice….geez Louise talk about beating a dead post...uhm err..where was I? oh yeah - faith...religion...superstition...I get it, I get it - you think they’re the same thing...I tend to think there’s a nuanced difference (as I expressed in my previous post...tap tap tap...cymbalince cymbalince...1, 2, 1, 2 mic check) but anyway who cares? I don’t.
Edited by T-Bonehey kids, wanna hear a secret? computers work by magic - and mine just up and disappeared
Link to comment
Share on other sites
fredgrant
Since the great majority of the over 41,000 ‘Christian’ denominations declare the resurrection of Jesus Christ, I will risk 'resurrecting' this dormant thread.
One of the great reasons there are so many gospels(or denominations as many people call them) is that very few people are willing to put up with God as He reveals Himself in the Bible, so they form Him to suit their desires. This involves adding to, subtracting from, changing, or just misunderstanding, the scriptures.
It is interesting that ‘faith vs superstition’ is under discussion here, because the reason I first ‘made a ripple’ here was to post a link on a thread about Acts 17 To the unknown God. Coincidentally(yeah right), Paul begins his discourse to the Athenians with superstition(v. 22), and ends with faith(v. 31). Superstition is how man makes the gods he wants, and faith is what God gives a man to allow or cause him to believe in the resurrection.
The Bible also says(Rom. 10:17) that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. A person may hear enough to have faith, but deviations in doctrines after the basic faith in the resurrection of Jesus Christ are abundant, mostly because few people are happy with God as He describes Himself, so they change Him into something else. There are also obviously some who spend time, perhaps a lifetime, in church(es) without ever being sure of the resurrection, because that's what those around them are doing.
The really good news(which is rarely preached or believed) is that Jesus Christ has been tasked with reconciling all of creation unto himself, and thereby to God. He always does the Father’s will, so we can rest assured he will not leave us hanging.
In the grand scheme of things therefore, no matter what ‘flavor’ of Christianity we end up with(or without), God’s loving arms are long enough and strong enough to catch us and hold us close.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mark Sanguinetti
Very good and I give you a grade of A for your post. However, God and Jesus Christ could instead give you a grade of A+. That is God's goal through his Son Jesus Christ to reconcile all, especially all of humanity under Jesus Christ his Son. And the biblical teaching book, Our Loving Savior Jesus Christ, that I wrote points this out perhaps as the main theme of the book. As an example in quoting from this book is the following in chapter 12 named "1 Corinthians 15 Resurrection from the Dead Through Jesus Christ ".
Edited by Mark SanguinettiLink to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.