Never mind a 2nd wave or even a 1st wave. Why do we need PFAL?
I’ve been on a kick of researching Gnosticism and reading certain New Testament “letters” in light of the problems they address. The epistles of John and Colossians are probably the most notable letters to deal directly with a dangerous heresy that arose. Gnosticism wasn’t even a thing at that point - “Gnostics” didn’t call themselves that - it was a label that critics put on them - cuz they were all about having “gnosis” - a secret KNOWLEDGE.
Think about the early days of the 1st century church. They didn’t have little New Testaments to pass out for witnessing or to follow along with while in church. They didn’t have a complicated theological system and didn’t need to teach converts the keys to the interpretation of The Word - they Experienced and SHARED about the Living Word - Jesus Christ. Mark 16:20 says they simply went forth and preached everywhere, the Lord WORKING WITH them.
Why do we need PFAL?
Honestly - I’m asking all PFAL-fans, why does ANYONE need PFAL?
Paul’s goal in writing the Colossians was that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments. (See Colossians 2)
Some scholars have said the issues that Paul addresses in certain letters are probably an incipient form of what later became known as Gnosticism; at its early stage it was essentially a religious-philosophical fused attitude, not a well-defined system of thought. The esoteric exclusiveness and asceticism of its adherents had a negative effect on Christian freedom and was derogatory to the idea that the Holy Spirit could dwell in our evil human bodies – see the correlation in passages that correct the error of some seeking spiritual deliverance through philosophy and ascetic practices of self-abasement and severity to the body Colossians 2 - and how knowledge puffs up I Corinthians 13 and Paul warning against myths, speculations and vain discussions in I Timothy 1 .
In the epistles of John, we find Gnosticism was distinguished by an unethical, loveless intellectualism and repeatedly condemned antinomianism which is a belief which rejects laws or legalism and argues against moral, religious or social norms. It’s not that hard to see how one gets from the asceticism of Gnosticism to libertarianism that advocates total freedom – especially in thought and conduct. If one views spirit as good and matter as evil then it’s possible one can slip into an indifference toward anything done in the physical realm.
wierwille’s theology in PFAL and expanded in the Advanced Class has virulent Gnostic strains – I don’t mean to suggest he deliberately and formally adopted Gnosticism. I merely want to point out there is an element of wierwille’s ideology that seems to hearken back to a Gnostic mindset. There is the tendency to lean heavily on speculation – especially in PFAL and the Advanced Class, the arrogant attitude fueled by thinking one has more of "the rightly-divided Word of God than any other ministry", practicing situation ethics – being flexible in the application of moral laws according to circumstances, and lastly intellectualism having a higher priority than faith, compassion, and altruism in other words, studying or teaching “The Word” is often thought of as doing “The Word” or is thought of as equivalent to exercising faith, selflessness and goodwill.
Since one way to define Gnosticism as being a religious-philosophical fused attitude makes me think of Matthew 6:24 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.” And that makes me think of the four biggies of importance and success that any of us can get caught up in – the relentless pursuit of fame, fortune, power, and pleasure.
It would be impossible to determine what led wierwille to feel he had a superior knowledge or the fact that he lacked good moral principles; I have this two-bit-interpretation of Matthew 6:24 that people can make a religion out of just about anything – if you define religion by theory and practice then it could be really anything one is extremely devoted to, a belief system that involves worship of whatever – which means it’s the ultimate pursuit or of the utmost interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance; in that regard it could be based on self-interest, one’s own imagination and might even include one’s personal preferences even a predilection against what is good or proper. We’ve heard of “the self-made man” which refers to one who became successful and/or wealthy through hard work - not by inheritance or help from others. I don’t think it’s too far-fetched that people can subscribe to a self-made religion. Which would probably be fascinating studies on idolatry and hypocrisy – both Biblical and secular.
It’s ridiculous to argue about “the good stuff” in PFAL - whether it’s plagiarized homogenized pasteurized or immortalized. It just doesn’t matter. We don’t need PFAL. We don’t need anyone’s poor substitute or additions to what we already have with Christ. We don’t need keys to unlock a supposed secret knowledge.
We don’t need PFAL and its pseudo-Christian support systems (TWI and offshoots) and for that matter we don’t need any of PFAL’s rogue flunkies either.
That’s all for now folks!
Actually I believe Timothy is one of the main places Paul confronted 'Gnosticism'....one of their beliefs was that Eve (was the mother of all living), created first and then Adam. They also believed that if women were not 'grounded' to the earth through the Gnostic 'secrets' they risked dying in child birth.
1 Timothy 2:12-15
ButI suffernota womanto teach,norto usurp authorityover the man,butto beinsilence. ForAdamwasfirstformed,thenEve. AndAdamwasnotdeceived,butthe womanbeing deceivedwasinthe transgression. Notwithstandingshe shall be savedinchildbearing,ifthey continueinfaithandcharityandholinesswithsobriety.
Actually I believe Timothy is one of the main places Paul confronted 'Gnosticism'....one of their beliefs was that Eve (was the mother of all living), created first and then Adam. They also believed that if women were not 'grounded' to the earth through the Gnostic 'secrets' they risked dying in child birth.
A large percentage of Biblical scholars are of the opinion that I Timothy, II Timothy and Titus were authored by someone other than Paul. Paul is thought to have died in about 65 CE. These books appear to have been written about 35 years later.
Waysider, I'm so glad I can do it, and enjoy it so much. In TIP Excellors' Sessions I'd teach how much fun SIT is and is even a little like dance. Now that I've RECENTLY gotten heavily into dance, I can say it's extremely verified. The mechanics of speech in SIT are similar to the mechanics of dance. Oddly, I've discovered that dance is like a forced smile.
A forced smile can confuse a depression for about 3 seconds. But DANCE is like a forced smile on the whole body, and it obliterates depression, sometimes for hours. It is massive fun, especially when mixing in the social interactions.
I've also ignited on the adventure of witnessing EARLY about SIT, rather than building up to it slowly. There's a whole generation that has never heard of it. It can be a cool way to show people something tangible, that's not abstract.
I've also been reaching out to grads who still have not developed much fluency in SIT. I used to deal with that in Excellors' Sessions long ago, also.
If you're just playing with forcible smiling as a fun way to get an emotional boost, that's one thing. But if you're using those smiles as a way to mask anxiety or pretend depression symptoms aren't present, that's entirely different.7
I am guessing someone who puts on the TWIG face too long forgets it's a MASK. It's an act. That little mental engineering must have consequences.
In the AUTHORIZED book on TWI, titled “The Way Living in Love” (by Elena S. Whiteside, co 1972, American Christian Press, Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 72-89132), on page 178 Whiteside quotes wierwille as he talked about his long search for definitive answers…wierwille stated “I was praying. And I told Father outright that He could have the whole thing, unless there were real genuine answers that I wouldn't ever have to back up on. And that's when He spoke to me audibly, just like I'm talking to you now. He said He would teach me the Word as it had not been known since the first century if I would teach it to others. Well, I nearly flew off my chair. I couldn't believe that God would talk to me.”
Expanding on what I said in my previous post: “Think about the early days of the 1st century church. They didn’t have little New Testaments to pass out for witnessing or to follow along with while in church. They didn’t have a complicated theological system and didn’t need to teach converts the keys to the interpretation of The Word - they EXPERIENCED and SHARED about the Living Word - Jesus Christ. Mark 16:20 says they simply went forth and preached everywhere, the Lord WORKING WITH them.” I add the following...
Contrary to wierwille’s IMAGINATION of how HE THOUGHT “The Word” was made known in the first century – there is scriptural evidence to indicate Jesus as well as famous preachers like Paul had to rely on whatever scrolls were available in local synagogues… Acts 17:1-4 ESV mentions a typical means used by Paul: ‘Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ.” And some of them were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a great many of the devout Greeks and not a few of the leading women.”
The only “Bible” in Jesus’ and Paul’s day were copies of scrolls of what we’ve come to know as the Old Testament see Bible Hub - The Bible in the Days of Jesus Christ - and it’s not like every synagogue or other repository for religious / sacred writings had the ENTIRE Old Testament. An interesting side study is the formation of the Old Testament…”It was during the reign of Hezekiah of Judah in the 8th century B.C. that historians believe what would become the Old Testament began to take form, the result of royal scribes recording royal history and heroic legends. During the reign of Josiah in the 6th century B.C., the books of Deuteronomy and Judges were compiled and added. The final form of the Hebrew Bible developed over the next 200 years when Judah was swallowed up by the expanding Persian Empire.” ( from History website - how the Bible was formed ).
According to one answer offered on the internet:
“…Your average synagogue in Jesus’ day would likely have no scrolls at all, and not even a building.
Please remember that Jesus lived during the Second Temple Era. Rabbinical Judaism centered around synagogues did not develop until after the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple some four decades after Jesus’ death. During Jesus’ lifetime, the typical synagogue was just a group of villagers who met to decide local matters according to what they knew of the law, much of which would have been transmitted orally in the rural area of Galilee where Jesus lived, where there weren’t even any Roman roads.
In the larger towns/cities the synagogue would have met indoors, and would likely have had scrolls containing the Law. But the Hebrew Bible or Tanakh (which Christians call the “Old Testament”) containing the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings had not yet been established as a canon. Various groups used various collections of scrolls, not all of which agreed with the official scrolls held at the Temple in Jerusalem. And at the time of Jesus, when the legitimate Zadokite priests had been replaced by Rome with Idumean priests, who had no scriptural authority to hold their positions in the first place, many groups considered the current Temple leadership to be illegitimate. The followers of Jesus, for example, were into the Enoch traditions, which were relatively recent and generally not considered authoritative.
In short, a synagogue at the time of Jesus was nothing at all like a modern synagogue. It was not involved in worship, which was centralized in Jerusalem officially but also still took place in various rural “high places” where there were altars and in homes. Rather, the synagogue was more like a local court which decided what to do about all the minutiae contained in the Law, such as divorces, how to compensate someone whose livestock had been allegedly harmed by someone else, what punishment to mete out to a thief, and so forth. Whether or not an actual Torah scroll was available depended on how large and wealthy the place was.”
Even a quick search on the internet of WHEN The Bible was written will give you a wide variety of answers – NONE of which will support wierwille’s FANTASY that God would teach him the Word as it had not been known SINCE the FIRST CENTURY…wierwille’s ABSURD, RIDICULOUSLYFANTASTIC CLAIM makes God look like an idiot who never paid attention at a college or seminary (whether accredited or not ) when curriculum got into the history on how we got the book known as The Bible.
There were a lot of reasons...but I’ll mention the one that best relates to this and my previous post. I was looking for some definitive answers. The claims of benefits on the back of the green PFAL sign-up card seemed to me to be the ticket to definitive answers. Little did I know it was wierwille’s idea of definitive answers – which is PFAL - an insidious fourfold mix of 1. his signature intuition... 2.dogmatic fundamentalism... 3.pontificating demonology / spiritualism i.e., the “mechanics” of EXACTLY HOW stuff works in the spiritual realm... and 4. Gnosticism – the secret knowledge - “the keys” to the interpretation of “The Word” and experiencing the same knowledge and power of the first century church in our day and time and hour.” oh well, live and learn...I was young and naive...It all sounded good to me at the time...
A really good con man will sell you the shirt off your own back...I think I’ve learned more about the Bible and experienced more of what life and freedom should be about since I left TWI.
Interesting lines in the song Tin Man by America:
“Sometimes late when things are real
And people share the gift of gab between themselves
Some are quick to take the bait
And catch the perfect prize that waits among the shells
But Oz never did give nothing to the Tin Man
That he didn't, didn't already have”
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Why do we need PFAL?
I don't...we don't
That’s all for now, folks ! (<that is my first wave)
That’s all for now, folks ! (< and that is my second wave)
(but if you you're reckoning from my previous post - I guess these are the second and third waves...I dunno I'm confused now... .... ok that's it for now... yikes - a fourth wave ?!?! ...or is it? ...oh W.O.W. the fifth wave... alright - bonus question for extra points: who was the fifth Beatle? )
Edited by T-Bone The Editor takes the place of the absent T-Bone
It is interesting discussing PFAL how research as a topic comes up. Regarding research and the Way I absolutely have to recommend Charlene Edges book Undertow: My Escape From the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International as fundamental to understanding how VPW and research worked in the history of the Way.
True research involves evaluating commentary to get an idea of thought patterns in modern Christianity and evaluating ancient artifacts called critical textualism.
Posts like T Bones touch on these areas.
The Way has a different idea of research, based on laziness and claiming revelation.
They have also abandoned research and dissolved the research department. A president claimed research was not necessary as they already have the present truth, I guess referring to VPWs revelation TBone talks about.
As Jesus taught, you know people by their fruit, not external facade.
It is interesting discussing PFAL how research as a topic comes up. Regarding research and the Way I absolutely have to recommend Charlene Edges book Undertow: My Escape From the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International as fundamental to understanding how VPW and research worked in the history of the Way.
True research involves evaluating commentary to get an idea of thought patterns in modern Christianity and evaluating ancient artifacts called critical textualism.
Posts like T Bones touch on these areas.
The Way has a different idea of research, based on laziness and claiming revelation.
They have also abandoned research and dissolved the research department. A president claimed research was not necessary as they already have the present truth, I guess referring to VPWs revelation TBone talks about.
As Jesus taught, you know people by their fruit, not external facade.
I thought some more about what wierwille said – so copying a section of my previous post I highlighted in bold red what got my curiosity up:
In the AUTHORIZED book on TWI, titled “The Way Living in Love” (by Elena S. Whiteside, co 1972, American Christian Press, Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 72-89132), on page 178 Whiteside quotes wierwille as he talked about his long search for definitive answers…wierwille stated “I was praying. And I told Father outright that He could have the whole thing, unless there werereal genuine answersthat I wouldn't ever have to back up on. And that's when He spoke to me audibly, just like I'm talking to you now. He said He would teach me the Word as it had not been known since the first century if I would teach it to others. Well, I nearly flew off my chair. I couldn't believe that God would talk to me.”
“real genuine answers that I wouldn't ever have to back up on” – was he worried about losing a debate? When someone must backpedal – they’re reversing their previous action or opinion – a hasty backward move…But it hits me more like a shady salesman in search of something to sell...like he was searching for the ultimate product...something "guaranteed" to work - "uhm - got to work on that part though...come up with some kind of disclaimer...yeah that's the ticket."
And sell he does! The name of the class is Power For ABUNDANT Living. One of the claims of the class is that it “increases prosperity” – it’s in writing even – on the back of the green PFAL signup card…In the class wierwille says there are over 900 promises in God’s Word. But he stipulates you can’t benefit from that UNLESS you KNOW what’s available and HOW to receive them…now here’s the rub. It all depends on YOUR believing…because wierwille teaches the law of believing - that works for saint and sinner alike (some folks tend to confuse it withThe Force in Star Wars…but nope- this is slightly different and began a long time ago – well before 1977 anyway…in a cult far far away)…in case you haven’t realized it by now, this law-of-believing-nonsense was part of the “real genuine answer” to wierwille’s prayer that he “wouldn't ever have to back up on” – the equivalent of a disclaimer - a statement that denies responsibility. Only this disclaimer is not in fine print at the end of an extremely long and complicated legal document. That it-all-depends-on-YOUR-believing disclaimer is repeated over and over again throughout an extremely long and convoluted class of plagiarized material – called Power For Abundant Living.
Ephesians 3:20 should relieve us of any concerns that God is limited by our believing – for he is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we could ask or think…I wonder if wierwille could be one of the forerunners of the health & wealth gospel. I don’t know…doesn’t matter to me now anyway…I’m done with being a sucker in that con game. It’s really weird to see Christianity as a warm market for “righteous soft-sell” tactics. What if the only thing that Christianity offers is Jesus Christ. I wonder how many PFAL-fans would be interested in something like that…One of the first really thought-provoking books I read after leaving TWI was Beyond Seduction: A Return to Biblical Christianity by Dave Hunt .
WHY was PFAL made?
I remember the excitement I felt when I first took the class in New York. There was even some things wierwille said in the class early on that got me thinking I couldn’t wait to share this stuff with family and friends. And share I did! I was a walking talking PFAL brochure. I’d share all kinds of stuff from the class…but then came buzzkill from my new Twig coordinator – when I’d brag about my mass-marketing campaign – several times he’d put the kibosh on my efforts by “advising” me to get them to our Twig so we could sign them up for the next PFAL class. "You just don't go giving all this stuff away."
Being a newbie that hit me as kind of odd – so I guess the truth will set you free BUT the truth itself is NOT free. Oh well, live and learn. Maybe that’s WHY PFAL was made.
That’s all for now folks. (depending on when you started counting that’s either the fifth or sixth wave)
Edited by T-Bone editing works for saint and sinners alike
real genuine answers that I wouldn't ever have to back up on
But later, in PFAL, he says: "The Word of God is true whether or not you see it come to pass" or some such. Was that in context of prophets of old looking centuries into the future for the coming of the Saviour, the Promised Seed, the Lamb of God? We know that many of those OT prophets thought they were forsaken by God, at times. They despaired of their own lives. They must have thought God was backing off from his promises.
And yet - God saw them through and continued to guide them - and give them prophecies that in no way would they ever see.
With God, it's not necessarily instant gratification, which is what it sounds like Weirwille wanted (at least, instant as in the next very few years). Sometimes we only see the blessings of God well in hindsight.
may prosper εὐοδοῦσθαι(euodousthai) Verb - Present Infinitive Middle or Passive Strong's Greek 2137:From a compound of eu and hodos; to help on the road ...
You could say, on the road.
Or you could say, "on the way." Who, or what, is the way? Well, don't you know Who is the Way, the Truth and the Life? The one who embodies God's abundance in all things? The epitome and example of the One God who prepared a handbook of what to do (and not do) in order to thrive? To do well in society, and to be in good standing with not only God but with one's fellow human beings?
Now read that Book again. How much does it talk about the pursuit of money? And how much, in contrast, of the pursuit of a righteous and well-lived life?
Think again of how many examples there are of those who are, or want to be, rich, and the downfall of those folks. Again, in contrast, how many of those who live a righteous and well-lived life succeed financially as a by-product of that life? Some, certainly; but many who live a righteous and well-lived life don't seem to do well financially (Paul and all the apostles, for just a few) - yet they deem their lives immensely rich in the Lord.
For goodness sake. Get rid of this damned "health and wealth" heresy. Develop health and godliness. Then, maybe, the wealth will come. Or not.
THRIVE, people. THRIVE.
1 Timothy 6:9-11, 6
9 But they that will be rich [and chase prosperity doctrines]fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows [the exact opposite of thriving].
11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after[get on the road, the way of holiness] righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
6 But godliness with contentment [God's idea of prosperity] is great gain.
real genuine answers that I wouldn't ever have to back up on
But later, in PFAL, he says: "The Word of God is true whether or not you see it come to pass" or some such. Was that in context of prophets of old looking centuries into the future for the coming of the Saviour, the Promised Seed, the Lamb of God? We know that many of those OT prophets thought they were forsaken by God, at times. They despaired of their own lives. They must have thought God was backing off from his promises.
And yet - God saw them through and continued to guide them - and give them prophecies that in no way would they ever see.
With God, it's not necessarily instant gratification, which is what it sounds like Weirwille wanted (at least, instant as in the next very few years). Sometimes we only see the blessings of God well in hindsight.
1 hour ago, Twinky said:
increases prosperity
All about context, isn't it. And knowing what the words meant at the time.
"Prosper" doesn't mean "get a load of money." It means more, THRIVE. To do well for oneself as a whole.
may prosper εὐοδοῦσθαι(euodousthai) Verb - Present Infinitive Middle or Passive Strong's Greek 2137:From a compound of eu and hodos; to help on the road ...
You could say, on the road.
Or you could say, "on the way." Who, or what, is the way? Well, don't you know Who is the Way, the Truth and the Life? The one who embodies God's abundance in all things? The epitome and example of the One God who prepared a handbook of what to do (and not do) in order to thrive? To do well in society, and to be in good standing with not only God but with one's fellow human beings?
Now read that Book again. How much does it talk about the pursuit of money? And how much, in contrast, of the pursuit of a righteous and well-lived life?
Think again of how many examples there are of those who are, or want to be, rich, and the downfall of those folks. Again, in contrast, how many of those who live a righteous and well-lived life succeed financially as a by-product of that life? Some, certainly; but many who live a righteous and well-lived life don't seem to do well financially (Paul and all the apostles, for just a few) - yet they deem their lives immensely rich in the Lord.
For goodness sake. Get rid of this damned "health and wealth" heresy. Develop health and godliness. Then, maybe, the wealth will come. Or not.
THRIVE, people. THRIVE.
1 Timothy 6:9-11, 6
9 But they that will be rich [and chase prosperity doctrines]fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows [the exact opposite of thriving].
11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after[get on the road, the way of holiness] righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
6 But godliness with contentment [God's idea of prosperity] is great gain.
Maybe I’m old school…and I mean real old school…that’s what I was talking about in an earlier post – what were they preaching about in the first century…going by what I read in the book of Acts, it seems to be just the gospel - - the basic tenets of Christianity was the essence of their preaching – Jesus Christ is the promised Messiah, died for our sins/fulfilled all the requirements of the law for our justification, was raised from the dead, etc.. I don’t see any of them presenting the gospel as a cure-all for every problem or as the key to health and wealth – as PFAL and other prosperity preachers do.
Like I said before if all that Christianity offered was Jesus Christ, I wonder how many PFAL-fans would be interested.
Why does PFAL use the trappings of Christianity like bait to lure folks in?
In to what?
Increased prosperity?
More harmony in the home?
Make life meaningful?
Enable you to separate truth from error?
nope !!!! suckers fork over their MONEY for those promises/claims/benefits of PFAL – or rather the CHANCE TO SIT IN A CHAIR FOR HOURS AND LISTEN TO wierwille hawking those promises/claims/benefits of PFAL and HOW to receive them – and if the local TWI-leadership are good facilitators for an exploitative organization like TWI, I bet they can string some folks along for at least 4 or 5 years before they get frustrated and tired of the organization mooching off them.
after 12 years of TWI mooching off me - do you know what I told them? That's all folks
It is interesting discussing PFAL how research as a topic comes up. Regarding research and the Way I absolutely have to recommend Charlene Edges book Undertow: My Escape From the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International as fundamental to understanding how VPW and research worked in the history of the Way...
Great recommendation, Chockfull !
And yes, her book is a great exposé on some of the atrocious and unconscionable ways in which wierwille coerced the research department to distort the translation of a Greek word so it would agree with wierwille’s theology…The first time I read that in Undertow: My Escape from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International I was shell-shocked ! …I mean this was the same guy who in PFAL would make such a big deal about “The Word means what it says and says what it means” – and all that drama of his in session 6 (I think) – the one where he gets into the fall of mankind in Genesis 3 – and the road down with Eve because wierwille emphasized if you CHANGE - - ADD - - DELETE even JUST ONE LITTLE WORD – “then you no longer have God’s Word”…but I guess it’s okay if wierwille does it, huh …I’ll say one good thing about wierwille, though. What an actor! He sure had me fooled.
But you know, even with books like Undertow revealing such dark and unscrupulous traits of wierwille – it still blows my mind when I come across someone who refuses to believe the truth…I’m just stunned when I can’t understand the reasoning behind someone’s adamancy. On March 27th, 2018 I asked a certain Grease Spotter if he had a chance to read Penworks’ book…and just 23 minutes later he said this:
“I have it and am slowly reading it.
My first objection, though, is how she objected to the idea that "the Bible interprets itself." I find that objection very dim witted, even when pumped up with detail like with the posters that attacked it 15 years ago here. It slowed down my reading, but I still intend to finish it. That interpretation issue lowered my expectations and the book's priority in my schedule.
In a nutshell: Imagine how quirky it is for God to issue His Word to communicate to us, but then He FAILS to put cues, keys, and signposts in there to guide sincere seekers. That sounds like a bad way to get a message out. It's like Him saying "I want you to know something but I will not help you understand it."
The phrase "The Bible interprets itself" is an extreme abbreviation of a complex idea. She did not do that justice IMO. The criticism this idea got here 15 years ago I thought was similarly lacking. My impression was that she was leading uninformed readers into thinking God is supposed to be mysterious, an old Catholic idea. Maybe her book will get better later.
If you can recommend a spot to skip ahead to I would appreciate seeing what you feel is an section important to me.”
You can read their post as well as my response to what he said by this link > Plagiarism on the road to success – T-Bone’s post on Jan 7th, 2022 …alright - so my response was some 1382 days later – but time does not matter when you have a time machine…(well, I don’t have a time machine perse – but I did use an online calendar calculator to figure out how many days between two dates ).
as you can imagine I was bowled over by his dismissive tone and absurd arguments…in a last-ditch attempt to get through to another human being lost in the awesome sauce of a cult-leader,
and noting his preference for something less cerebral and that cuts to the chase – I recommended he skip ahead to pages 117 to 120 of her book – where Kristen relates an incident of wierwille sexually molesting her in the Coachman Suite at the Rome City campus – and afterwards wierwille says “It’s the lockbox, honey. You have to keep this in the lockbox of your soul. Many of God’s people wouldn’t understand what we’ve just done.” …no kidding – I certainly don’t understand how a supposed minister…president and founder of a biblical research, teaching and fellowship ministry could do something like that to a Christian woman in his own congregation.
...True research involves evaluating commentary to get an idea of thought patterns in modern Christianity and evaluating ancient artifacts called critical textualism...The Way has a different idea of research, based on laziness and claiming revelation...They have also abandoned research and dissolved the research department. A president claimed research was not necessary as they already have the present truth, I guess referring to VPWs revelation TBone talks about.
Some great points on biblical criticism, Chockfull !
and again what comes to mind in the context of this thread is the sloppy and superficial pretense of wierwille’s concern for supposedly getting back to “the authentic prophecy which was given when holy men of God spoke”.
On another thread - Is PLAF theopneustos, god-breathed? - I quoted from the PFAL book, page 128 in chapter 11, “The Translations of the Word of God”, wierwille states:
“Since we have no originals and the oldest manuscripts that we have date back to the fifth century A.D., how can we get back to the authentic prophecy which was given when holy men of God spoke? To get the Word of God out of any translation or out of any version, we have to compare one word with another and one verse with another verse. We have to study the context of all verses.”
Okay – just stop and think about that for a minute…now I ask you – how does comparing one word with another, one verse with another and studying the context of all verses in any translation or version of the Bible get you back to “the authentic prophecy which was given when holy men of God spoke” ?
What wierwille is describing is how second-hand information is compiled. It is just information received from others, rather than personally experienced or witnessed. wierwille is NOT looking at any actual ancient manuscript – but rather he’s looking at a TRANSLATION or VERSION of ancient manuscripts – that could be The King James Version, The New American Standard Bible, The New International Version, etc…
So big deal – anyone can do that!
Matter of fact, I have over 60 Bibles – actual printed Bibles on several shelves – various translations, study Bibles, critical Greek texts, The Hebrew Bible - the Tanakh, interlinears of Old & New Test., besides digital Bibles (ebooks) – I’m a little bit of a bookworm and study-bug…besides stuff you can find online – like John 1 ESV - go ahead click on that link, and then look to the right of where it has “John 1” – you’ll see “English Standard Version (ESV)” in a pulldown box…you can use that to change to other versions pretty cool huh…here’s another cool one John 1:1 - go ahead and click on that one – you’ll see that one verse in several different versions, great site for research tools too…So, let’s be honest about this - wierwille was NOT examining or analyzing the actual texts himself....something fishy about that - don't you think ?
On that Is PLAF theopneustos, god-breathed? thread I asked a certain PFAL-fan “specifically what errors are there in the KJV - or in other translations, for that matter - that need to be addressed because it is mission critical to the church and/or one’s Christian faith? Or to put it another way - what errors does your manifesto confront and resolve to make your unique creed a better version of Christianity?” I never did get a straight answer.
In that same post I also gave a reference to support my argument for the accuracy…authenticity…honesty of the ancient documents that still exist – I said “ I think we can shorten the discussion by just getting right to the heart of the matter; two notable scholars F.F. Bruce and Sir Frederic Kenyon – both with expertise in the historical reliability of the New Testament have stated that very little has been lost as to what was originally written in The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable? By F.F.Bruce ... it says on pages 14 and 15:
“The study of the kind of attestation found in MSS and quotations in later writers is connected with the approach known as Textual Criticism. This is a most important and fascinating branch of study, its object being to determine as exactly as possible from the available evidence the original words of the documents in question.
It is easily proved by experiment that it is difficult to copy out a passage of any considerable length without making one or two slips at least. When we have documents like our New Testament writings copied and recopied thousands of times, the scope for copyists’ errors is so enormously increased that it is surprising there are no more than there actually are. Fortunately, if the great number of MSS increases the number of scribal errors, it increases proportionately the means of correcting such errors, so that the margin of doubt left in the process of recovering the exact original wording is not so large as might be feared; it is in truth remarkably small.
The variant readings about which any doubt remains among textual critics of the New Testament affect no material question of historic fact or of Christian faith and practice.
To sum up, we may quote the verdict of the late Sir Frederic Kenyon, a scholar whose authority to make pronouncements on ancient MSS was second to none:
‘The Interval then between the dates of original composition and the earliest extant evidence becomes so small as to be in fact negligible, and the last foundation for any doubt that the Scriptures have come down to us substantially as they were written has now been removed. Both the authenticity and the general integrity of the books of the New Testament may be regarded as finally established.’ “
I remember how wierwille spoke with such disdain for the higher criticism of ancient texts in PFAL..He didn’t know what he was talking about. Here’s one website that might explain the various types of textual criticism – and how it’s a good thing:
“The Academic Study of the Bible and its Textual Content. In the academic discipline of biblical criticism the word "criticism" is not to be taken in the negative sense of attempting to denigrate the Bible. Technically, biblical criticism simply refers to the scholarly approach of studying, evaluating and critically assessing the Bible as literature in order to better understand its origins and the original intentions of its authors.
It is the task of biblical criticism to collect and study various writings in which a text has been preserved, determine the changes that have occurred in the wording and arrangement of the text, assess the significance of such changes, and restore, if possible, the original wording, teachings or form of the text.”
From : The Nazarene Way - biblical criticism
What a scam wierwille concocted – and executed through PFAL. Convince the young and naïve there are no original manuscripts…make like he knows better than Bible scholars and qualified translators who actually understand the biblical languages and study the existing manuscripts…but somehow wierwille can figure out what God originally said via the authors - by using nothing more than the King James Version…that is absolutely mind-blowing. more like mind-numbing.
For a guy that went on and on about "the accuracy and integrity ofthe Word of God is always at stake"– he sure showed little concern for honesty or for the actual data in the existing manuscripts. Makes me wonder what his definition is of “The Word of God” yeah - time and time again his sloppy research and inept analysis was on full display – and there’s some real damning evidence in Undertow – if you haven’t read it yet – well…maybe it’s time you should.
But you know, even with books like Undertow revealing such dark and unscrupulous traits of wierwille – it still blows my mind when I come across someone who refuses to believe the truth…I’m just stunned when I can’t understand the reasoning behind someone’s adamancy.
With study (and I believe you study stuff that will eventually lead you to some understanding), I believe it's available in a more literal sense to understand... but it's NOT reasoning that's behind it at all. It's other, very human, tendencies. Like tribalism and deep emotionalism.
But very much is not any kind of logic or reasoning. I read people saying on social media that they can't understand the logic/reasoning behind certain political beliefs that are causing polarization and division all over the world these days. That's what spurred me to ask myself and in some of the experts' books that I've read similar questions.
As a figure of speech however, I believe your question/statement is very TRUE and rational.
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Twinky
Hello Mike. I've kinda missed you round here. Could always rely on you to make a point that would stir up Cafe denizens. Was wondering what had happened to you. You went away to study PFAL more de
Raf
Am I the only one who thinks Bullinger's Figures of Speech sound a WHOLE LOT like Harry Potter spells? Condescensio! Hypocatastasis! Asyndeton! Polysyndeton! Expecto-Runaroundem!
cman
So the idea is that if specific things come together than things happen. And these things that contribute to the outcome, and the outcome itself, are, or can be known. Some kind of scientific or philo
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Allan
Actually I believe Timothy is one of the main places Paul confronted 'Gnosticism'....one of their beliefs was that Eve (was the mother of all living), created first and then Adam. They also believed that if women were not 'grounded' to the earth through the Gnostic 'secrets' they risked dying in child birth.
1 Timothy 2:12-15
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waysider
A large percentage of Biblical scholars are of the opinion that I Timothy, II Timothy and Titus were authored by someone other than Paul. Paul is thought to have died in about 65 CE. These books appear to have been written about 35 years later.
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Bolshevik
Gnosticism is a hunt for secret knowledge to defend yourself against some unseen enemy, yes?
Assuming something or someone is out to get you is a form of narcissism.
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Bolshevik
Mike, you're a gold mine.
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waysider
A well executed relevé can lift you closer to God.
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Bolshevik
https://www.verywellmind.com/news-science-shows-smiling-really-does-make-us-feel-better-5075811
I am guessing someone who puts on the TWIG face too long forgets it's a MASK. It's an act. That little mental engineering must have consequences.
Edited by BolshevikForced editing
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waysider
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Bolshevik
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T-Bone
Why do we need PFAL?
In the AUTHORIZED book on TWI, titled “The Way Living in Love” (by Elena S. Whiteside, co 1972, American Christian Press, Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 72-89132), on page 178 Whiteside quotes wierwille as he talked about his long search for definitive answers…wierwille stated “I was praying. And I told Father outright that He could have the whole thing, unless there were real genuine answers that I wouldn't ever have to back up on. And that's when He spoke to me audibly, just like I'm talking to you now. He said He would teach me the Word as it had not been known since the first century if I would teach it to others. Well, I nearly flew off my chair. I couldn't believe that God would talk to me.”
Expanding on what I said in my previous post: “Think about the early days of the 1st century church. They didn’t have little New Testaments to pass out for witnessing or to follow along with while in church. They didn’t have a complicated theological system and didn’t need to teach converts the keys to the interpretation of The Word - they EXPERIENCED and SHARED about the Living Word - Jesus Christ. Mark 16:20 says they simply went forth and preached everywhere, the Lord WORKING WITH them.” I add the following...
Contrary to wierwille’s IMAGINATION of how HE THOUGHT “The Word” was made known in the first century – there is scriptural evidence to indicate Jesus as well as famous preachers like Paul had to rely on whatever scrolls were available in local synagogues… Acts 17:1-4 ESV mentions a typical means used by Paul:
‘Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ.” And some of them were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a great many of the devout Greeks and not a few of the leading women.”
The only “Bible” in Jesus’ and Paul’s day were copies of scrolls of what we’ve come to know as the Old Testament see Bible Hub - The Bible in the Days of Jesus Christ - and it’s not like every synagogue or other repository for religious / sacred writings had the ENTIRE Old Testament. An interesting side study is the formation of the Old Testament…”It was during the reign of Hezekiah of Judah in the 8th century B.C. that historians believe what would become the Old Testament began to take form, the result of royal scribes recording royal history and heroic legends. During the reign of Josiah in the 6th century B.C., the books of Deuteronomy and Judges were compiled and added. The final form of the Hebrew Bible developed over the next 200 years when Judah was swallowed up by the expanding Persian Empire.” ( from History website - how the Bible was formed ).
According to one answer offered on the internet:
“…Your average synagogue in Jesus’ day would likely have no scrolls at all, and not even a building.
Please remember that Jesus lived during the Second Temple Era. Rabbinical Judaism centered around synagogues did not develop until after the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple some four decades after Jesus’ death. During Jesus’ lifetime, the typical synagogue was just a group of villagers who met to decide local matters according to what they knew of the law, much of which would have been transmitted orally in the rural area of Galilee where Jesus lived, where there weren’t even any Roman roads.
In the larger towns/cities the synagogue would have met indoors, and would likely have had scrolls containing the Law. But the Hebrew Bible or Tanakh (which Christians call the “Old Testament”) containing the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings had not yet been established as a canon. Various groups used various collections of scrolls, not all of which agreed with the official scrolls held at the Temple in Jerusalem. And at the time of Jesus, when the legitimate Zadokite priests had been replaced by Rome with Idumean priests, who had no scriptural authority to hold their positions in the first place, many groups considered the current Temple leadership to be illegitimate. The followers of Jesus, for example, were into the Enoch traditions, which were relatively recent and generally not considered authoritative.
In short, a synagogue at the time of Jesus was nothing at all like a modern synagogue. It was not involved in worship, which was centralized in Jerusalem officially but also still took place in various rural “high places” where there were altars and in homes. Rather, the synagogue was more like a local court which decided what to do about all the minutiae contained in the Law, such as divorces, how to compensate someone whose livestock had been allegedly harmed by someone else, what punishment to mete out to a thief, and so forth. Whether or not an actual Torah scroll was available depended on how large and wealthy the place was.”
From Quora - During Jesus' time, would the average synagogue have had all the Old Testament scrolls?
Even a quick search on the internet of WHEN The Bible was written will give you a wide variety of answers – NONE of which will support wierwille’s FANTASY that God would teach him the Word as it had not been known SINCE the FIRST CENTURY…wierwille’s ABSURD, RIDICULOUSLY FANTASTIC CLAIM makes God look like an idiot who never paid attention at a college or seminary (whether accredited or not
) when curriculum got into the history on how we got the book known as The Bible.
Wikipedia – Dating the Bible
Wikipedia – The New Testament
Bible Gateway Blog - When Was Each Book of the Bible Written?
Grace To You.org - When were the Bible books written?
Biblical Archaeology.org – When was the Bible written?
United Church of God.org - When were the books of the Bible written?
CARM.org - When was the Bible written and who wrote it? By Matt Slick
The International Bible Society - When was the Bible written?
Why did I take the PFAL class?
Good question…
There were a lot of reasons...but I’ll mention the one that best relates to this and my previous post. I was looking for some definitive answers. The claims of benefits on the back of the green PFAL sign-up card seemed to me to be the ticket to definitive answers. Little did I know it was wierwille’s idea of definitive answers – which is PFAL - an insidious fourfold mix of 1. his signature intuition... 2. dogmatic fundamentalism... 3. pontificating demonology / spiritualism i.e., the “mechanics” of EXACTLY HOW stuff works in the spiritual realm... and 4. Gnosticism – the secret knowledge - “the keys” to the interpretation of “The Word” and experiencing the same knowledge and power of the first century church in our day and time and hour.” oh well, live and learn...I was young and naive...It all sounded good to me at the time...
A really good con man will sell you the shirt off your own back...I think I’ve learned more about the Bible and experienced more of what life and freedom should be about since I left TWI.
Interesting lines in the song Tin Man by America:
“Sometimes late when things are real
And people share the gift of gab between themselves
Some are quick to take the bait
And catch the perfect prize that waits among the shells
But Oz never did give nothing to the Tin Man
That he didn't, didn't already have”
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Why do we need PFAL?
I don't...we don't
That’s all for now, folks !
That’s all for now, folks !
(< and that is my second wave)
(but if you you're reckoning from my previous post - I guess these are the second and third waves...I dunno I'm confused now...
.... ok that's it for now... 
yikes - a fourth wave ?!?! ...or is it? 
...oh W.O.W. the fifth wave... alright - bonus question for extra points: who was the fifth Beatle? )
Edited by T-BoneThe Editor takes the place of the absent T-Bone
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Twinky
You might be interested in this book. It's a really interesting read. Available s/hand for a very modest amount on Ebay and Amazon.
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T-Bone
Looks interesting- I’ll have to check it out - thanks Twinky !
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chockfull
It is interesting discussing PFAL how research as a topic comes up. Regarding research and the Way I absolutely have to recommend Charlene Edges book Undertow: My Escape From the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International as fundamental to understanding how VPW and research worked in the history of the Way.
True research involves evaluating commentary to get an idea of thought patterns in modern Christianity and evaluating ancient artifacts called critical textualism.
Posts like T Bones touch on these areas.
The Way has a different idea of research, based on laziness and claiming revelation.
They have also abandoned research and dissolved the research department. A president claimed research was not necessary as they already have the present truth, I guess referring to VPWs revelation TBone talks about.
As Jesus taught, you know people by their fruit, not external facade.
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chockfull
It is interesting discussing PFAL how research as a topic comes up. Regarding research and the Way I absolutely have to recommend Charlene Edges book Undertow: My Escape From the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International as fundamental to understanding how VPW and research worked in the history of the Way.
True research involves evaluating commentary to get an idea of thought patterns in modern Christianity and evaluating ancient artifacts called critical textualism.
Posts like T Bones touch on these areas.
The Way has a different idea of research, based on laziness and claiming revelation.
They have also abandoned research and dissolved the research department. A president claimed research was not necessary as they already have the present truth, I guess referring to VPWs revelation TBone talks about.
As Jesus taught, you know people by their fruit, not external facade.
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T-Bone
WHY was PFAL made?
I thought some more about what wierwille said – so copying a section of my previous post I highlighted in bold red what got my curiosity up:
In the AUTHORIZED book on TWI, titled “The Way Living in Love” (by Elena S. Whiteside, co 1972, American Christian Press, Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 72-89132), on page 178 Whiteside quotes wierwille as he talked about his long search for definitive answers…wierwille stated “I was praying. And I told Father outright that He could have the whole thing, unless there were real genuine answers that I wouldn't ever have to back up on. And that's when He spoke to me audibly, just like I'm talking to you now. He said He would teach me the Word as it had not been known since the first century if I would teach it to others. Well, I nearly flew off my chair. I couldn't believe that God would talk to me.”
“real genuine answers that I wouldn't ever have to back up on” – was he worried about losing a debate? When someone must backpedal – they’re reversing their previous action or opinion – a hasty backward move…But it hits me more like a shady salesman in search of something to sell...like he was searching for the ultimate product...something "guaranteed" to work - "uhm - got to work on that part though...come up with some kind of disclaimer...yeah that's the ticket."
And sell he does! The name of the class is Power For ABUNDANT Living. One of the claims of the class is that it “increases prosperity” – it’s in writing even – on the back of the green PFAL signup card…In the class wierwille says there are over 900 promises in God’s Word. But he stipulates you can’t benefit from that UNLESS you KNOW what’s available and HOW to receive them…now here’s the rub. It all depends on YOUR believing…because wierwille teaches the law of believing - that works for saint and sinner alike (some folks tend to confuse it with The Force in Star Wars…but nope- this is slightly different and began a long time ago – well before 1977 anyway…in a cult far far away)…in case you haven’t realized it by now, this law-of-believing-nonsense was part of the “real genuine answer” to wierwille’s prayer that he “wouldn't ever have to back up on” – the equivalent of a disclaimer - a statement that denies responsibility. Only this disclaimer is not in fine print at the end of an extremely long and complicated legal document. That it-all-depends-on-YOUR-believing disclaimer is repeated over and over again throughout an extremely long and convoluted class of plagiarized material – called Power For Abundant Living.
Ephesians 3:20 should relieve us of any concerns that God is limited by our believing – for he is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we could ask or think…I wonder if wierwille could be one of the forerunners of the health & wealth gospel. I don’t know…doesn’t matter to me now anyway…I’m done with being a sucker in that con game. It’s really weird to see Christianity as a warm market for “righteous soft-sell” tactics. What if the only thing that Christianity offers is Jesus Christ. I wonder how many PFAL-fans would be interested in something like that…One of the first really thought-provoking books I read after leaving TWI was Beyond Seduction: A Return to Biblical Christianity by Dave Hunt .
WHY was PFAL made?
I remember the excitement I felt when I first took the class in New York. There was even some things wierwille said in the class early on that got me thinking I couldn’t wait to share this stuff with family and friends. And share I did! I was a walking talking PFAL brochure. I’d share all kinds of stuff from the class…but then came buzzkill from my new Twig coordinator – when I’d brag about my mass-marketing campaign – several times he’d put the kibosh on my efforts by “advising” me to get them to our Twig so we could sign them up for the next PFAL class. "You just don't go giving all this stuff away."
Being a newbie that hit me as kind of odd – so I guess the truth will set you free BUT the truth itself is NOT free.
Oh well, live and learn. Maybe that’s WHY PFAL was made.
That’s all for now folks.
(depending on when you started counting that’s either the fifth or sixth wave)
Edited by T-Boneediting works for saint and sinners alike
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Twinky
real genuine answers that I wouldn't ever have to back up on
But later, in PFAL, he says: "The Word of God is true whether or not you see it come to pass" or some such. Was that in context of prophets of old looking centuries into the future for the coming of the Saviour, the Promised Seed, the Lamb of God? We know that many of those OT prophets thought they were forsaken by God, at times. They despaired of their own lives. They must have thought God was backing off from his promises.
And yet - God saw them through and continued to guide them - and give them prophecies that in no way would they ever see.
With God, it's not necessarily instant gratification, which is what it sounds like Weirwille wanted (at least, instant as in the next very few years). Sometimes we only see the blessings of God well in hindsight.
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Twinky
increases prosperity
All about context, isn't it. And knowing what the words meant at the time.
"Prosper" doesn't mean "get a load of money." It means more, THRIVE. To do well for oneself as a whole.
3 John 1:2 Parallel: Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth. (biblehub.com)
may prosper
εὐοδοῦσθαι (euodousthai)
Verb - Present Infinitive Middle or Passive
Strong's Greek 2137: From a compound of eu and hodos; to help on the road ...
You could say, on the road.
Or you could say, "on the way." Who, or what, is the way? Well, don't you know Who is the Way, the Truth and the Life? The one who embodies God's abundance in all things? The epitome and example of the One God who prepared a handbook of what to do (and not do) in order to thrive? To do well in society, and to be in good standing with not only God but with one's fellow human beings?
Now read that Book again. How much does it talk about the pursuit of money? And how much, in contrast, of the pursuit of a righteous and well-lived life?
Think again of how many examples there are of those who are, or want to be, rich, and the downfall of those folks. Again, in contrast, how many of those who live a righteous and well-lived life succeed financially as a by-product of that life? Some, certainly; but many who live a righteous and well-lived life don't seem to do well financially (Paul and all the apostles, for just a few) - yet they deem their lives immensely rich in the Lord.
For goodness sake. Get rid of this damned "health and wealth" heresy. Develop health and godliness. Then, maybe, the wealth will come. Or not.
THRIVE, people. THRIVE.
11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after [get on the road, the way of holiness] righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
6 But godliness with contentment [God's idea of prosperity] is great gain.
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T-Bone
Maybe I’m old school…and I mean real old school…that’s what I was talking about in an earlier post – what were they preaching about in the first century…going by what I read in the book of Acts, it seems to be just the gospel - - the basic tenets of Christianity was the essence of their preaching – Jesus Christ is the promised Messiah, died for our sins/fulfilled all the requirements of the law for our justification, was raised from the dead, etc.. I don’t see any of them presenting the gospel as a cure-all for every problem or as the key to health and wealth – as PFAL and other prosperity preachers do.
Like I said before if all that Christianity offered was Jesus Christ, I wonder how many PFAL-fans would be interested.
Why does PFAL use the trappings of Christianity like bait to lure folks in?
In to what?
Increased prosperity?
More harmony in the home?
Make life meaningful?
Enable you to separate truth from error?
nope !!!! suckers fork over their MONEY for those promises/claims/benefits of PFAL – or rather the CHANCE TO SIT IN A CHAIR FOR HOURS
AND LISTEN TO wierwille hawking those promises/claims/benefits of PFAL and HOW to receive them – and if the local TWI-leadership are good facilitators for an exploitative organization like TWI, I bet they can string some folks along for at least 4 or 5 years before they get frustrated and tired of the organization mooching off them. 
after 12 years of TWI mooching off me - do you know what I told them? That's all folks
Edited by T-Bonemakes editing meaningful
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Rocky
YESSSS!
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chockfull
There's my second wave of PFAL.
Goodbye PFAL.
Goodbye imitation replacement PFAL.
Goodbye imitation replacement cult leaders.
That is the only wave a rational person is going to make
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Bolshevik
And now, Ted Philips will lead the choir in "One Man Awake Awakens Another". Please Nod in approval.
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waysider
Please don't wake me up too late.....
Edited by waysider2x post won't delete....sorry
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T-Bone
Great recommendation, Chockfull !
And yes, her book is a great exposé on some of the atrocious and unconscionable ways in which wierwille coerced the research department to distort the translation of a Greek word so it would agree with wierwille’s theology…The first time I read that in Undertow: My Escape from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International I was shell-shocked ! …I mean this was the same guy who in PFAL would make such a big deal about “The Word means what it says and says what it means” – and all that drama of his in session 6 (I think) – the one where he gets into the fall of mankind in Genesis 3 – and the road down with Eve because wierwille emphasized if you CHANGE - - ADD - - DELETE even JUST ONE LITTLE WORD – “then you no longer have God’s Word”…but I guess it’s okay if wierwille does it, huh
But you know, even with books like Undertow revealing such dark and unscrupulous traits of wierwille – it still blows my mind when I come across someone who refuses to believe the truth…I’m just stunned when I can’t understand the reasoning behind someone’s adamancy. On March 27th, 2018 I asked a certain Grease Spotter if he had a chance to read Penworks’ book…and just 23 minutes later he said this:
“I have it and am slowly reading it.
My first objection, though, is how she objected to the idea that "the Bible interprets itself." I find that objection very dim witted, even when pumped up with detail like with the posters that attacked it 15 years ago here. It slowed down my reading, but I still intend to finish it. That interpretation issue lowered my expectations and the book's priority in my schedule.
In a nutshell: Imagine how quirky it is for God to issue His Word to communicate to us, but then He FAILS to put cues, keys, and signposts in there to guide sincere seekers. That sounds like a bad way to get a message out. It's like Him saying "I want you to know something but I will not help you understand it."
The phrase "The Bible interprets itself" is an extreme abbreviation of a complex idea. She did not do that justice IMO. The criticism this idea got here 15 years ago I thought was similarly lacking. My impression was that she was leading uninformed readers into thinking God is supposed to be mysterious, an old Catholic idea. Maybe her book will get better later.
If you can recommend a spot to skip ahead to I would appreciate seeing what you feel is an section important to me.”
You can read their post as well as my response to what he said by this link > Plagiarism on the road to success – T-Bone’s post on Jan 7th, 2022 …alright - so my response was some 1382 days later – but time does not matter when you have a time machine…(well, I don’t have a time machine perse – but I did use an online calendar calculator to figure out how many days between two dates
as you can imagine I was bowled over by his dismissive tone and absurd arguments…in a last-ditch attempt to get through to another human being lost in the awesome sauce of a cult-leader,
I recommended another book Losing the Way: A Memoir of Spiritual Longing, Manipulation, Abuse, and Escape by Kristen Skedgell
and noting his preference for something less cerebral and that cuts to the chase – I recommended he skip ahead to pages 117 to 120 of her book – where Kristen relates an incident of wierwille sexually molesting her in the Coachman Suite at the Rome City campus – and afterwards wierwille says “It’s the lockbox, honey. You have to keep this in the lockbox of your soul. Many of God’s people wouldn’t understand what we’ve just done.” …no kidding – I certainly don’t understand how a supposed minister…president and founder of a biblical research, teaching and fellowship ministry could do something like that to a Christian woman in his own congregation.
that's all for now, folks
Edited by T-Bonetexts, texts, and more texts
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T-Bone
Some great points on biblical criticism, Chockfull !
and again what comes to mind in the context of this thread is the sloppy and superficial pretense of wierwille’s concern for supposedly getting back to “the authentic prophecy which was given when holy men of God spoke”.
On another thread - Is PLAF theopneustos, god-breathed? - I quoted from the PFAL book, page 128 in chapter 11, “The Translations of the Word of God”, wierwille states:
“Since we have no originals and the oldest manuscripts that we have date back to the fifth century A.D., how can we get back to the authentic prophecy which was given when holy men of God spoke? To get the Word of God out of any translation or out of any version, we have to compare one word with another and one verse with another verse. We have to study the context of all verses.”
Okay – just stop and think about that for a minute…now I ask you – how does comparing one word with another, one verse with another and studying the context of all verses in any translation or version of the Bible get you back to “the authentic prophecy which was given when holy men of God spoke” ?
What wierwille is describing is how second-hand information is compiled. It is just information received from others, rather than personally experienced or witnessed. wierwille is NOT looking at any actual ancient manuscript – but rather he’s looking at a TRANSLATION or VERSION of ancient manuscripts – that could be The King James Version, The New American Standard Bible, The New International Version, etc…
So big deal – anyone can do that!
Matter of fact, I have over 60 Bibles – actual printed Bibles on several shelves – various translations, study Bibles, critical Greek texts, The Hebrew Bible - the Tanakh, interlinears of Old & New Test., besides digital Bibles (ebooks) – I’m a little bit of a bookworm and study-bug…besides stuff you can find online – like John 1 ESV - go ahead click on that link, and then look to the right of where it has “John 1” – you’ll see “English Standard Version (ESV)” in a pulldown box…you can use that to change to other versions pretty cool huh…here’s another cool one John 1:1 - go ahead and click on that one – you’ll see that one verse in several different versions, great site for research tools too…So, let’s be honest about this - wierwille was NOT examining or analyzing the actual texts himself....something fishy about that - don't you think ?
On that Is PLAF theopneustos, god-breathed? thread I asked a certain PFAL-fan “specifically what errors are there in the KJV - or in other translations, for that matter - that need to be addressed because it is mission critical to the church and/or one’s Christian faith? Or to put it another way - what errors does your manifesto confront and resolve to make your unique creed a better version of Christianity?” I never did get a straight answer.
In that same post I also gave a reference to support my argument for the accuracy…authenticity…honesty of the ancient documents that still exist – I said “ I think we can shorten the discussion by just getting right to the heart of the matter; two notable scholars F.F. Bruce and Sir Frederic Kenyon – both with expertise in the historical reliability of the New Testament have stated that very little has been lost as to what was originally written in The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable? By F.F.Bruce ... it says on pages 14 and 15:
“The study of the kind of attestation found in MSS and quotations in later writers is connected with the approach known as Textual Criticism. This is a most important and fascinating branch of study, its object being to determine as exactly as possible from the available evidence the original words of the documents in question.
It is easily proved by experiment that it is difficult to copy out a passage of any considerable length without making one or two slips at least. When we have documents like our New Testament writings copied and recopied thousands of times, the scope for copyists’ errors is so enormously increased that it is surprising there are no more than there actually are. Fortunately, if the great number of MSS increases the number of scribal errors, it increases proportionately the means of correcting such errors, so that the margin of doubt left in the process of recovering the exact original wording is not so large as might be feared; it is in truth remarkably small.
The variant readings about which any doubt remains among textual critics of the New Testament affect no material question of historic fact or of Christian faith and practice.
To sum up, we may quote the verdict of the late Sir Frederic Kenyon, a scholar whose authority to make pronouncements on ancient MSS was second to none:
‘The Interval then between the dates of original composition and the earliest extant evidence becomes so small as to be in fact negligible, and the last foundation for any doubt that the Scriptures have come down to us substantially as they were written has now been removed. Both the authenticity and the general integrity of the books of the New Testament may be regarded as finally established.’ “
I remember how wierwille spoke with such disdain for the higher criticism of ancient texts in PFAL..He didn’t know what he was talking about. Here’s one website that might explain the various types of textual criticism – and how it’s a good thing:
“The Academic Study of the Bible and its Textual Content. In the academic discipline of biblical criticism the word "criticism" is not to be taken in the negative sense of attempting to denigrate the Bible. Technically, biblical criticism simply refers to the scholarly approach of studying, evaluating and critically assessing the Bible as literature in order to better understand its origins and the original intentions of its authors.
It is the task of biblical criticism to collect and study various writings in which a text has been preserved, determine the changes that have occurred in the wording and arrangement of the text, assess the significance of such changes, and restore, if possible, the original wording, teachings or form of the text.”
From : The Nazarene Way - biblical criticism
See also
Wikipedia – Biblical manuscripts
Preservation of the Bible
Faith Facts.org – manuscript evidence
What a scam wierwille concocted – and executed through PFAL. Convince the young and naïve there are no original manuscripts…make like he knows better than Bible scholars and qualified translators who actually understand the biblical languages and study the existing manuscripts…but somehow wierwille can figure out what God originally said via the authors - by using nothing more than the King James Version…that is absolutely mind-blowing.
more like mind-numbing.
For a guy that went on and on about "the accuracy and integrity of the Word of God is always at stake"– he sure showed little concern for honesty or for the actual data in the existing manuscripts. Makes me wonder what his definition is of “The Word of God” yeah - time and time again his sloppy research and inept analysis was on full display – and there’s some real damning evidence in Undertow – if you haven’t read it yet – well…maybe it’s time you should.
That’s all for now, folks
Edited by T-Bonetext-of-the-day
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Rocky
With study (and I believe you study stuff that will eventually lead you to some understanding), I believe it's available in a more literal sense to understand... but it's NOT reasoning that's behind it at all. It's other, very human, tendencies. Like tribalism and deep emotionalism.
Edited by RockyBut very much is not any kind of logic or reasoning. I read people saying on social media that they can't understand the logic/reasoning behind certain political beliefs that are causing polarization and division all over the world these days. That's what spurred me to ask myself and in some of the experts' books that I've read similar questions.
As a figure of speech however, I believe your question/statement is very TRUE and rational.
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