Such righteous anti-plagarism is really a joke to me. Has your mission in life really descended to fight for "Scholars' Rights" and Proper Crediting. Are you able to think outside that box? It reveals to me a level of desperation in wanting to criticize VPW.
If I didn't think this was a terrible affliction that limits you in life, I'd consider it as hilarious as what happens to Flat Earthers.
I think you and others here have whipped yourself into a 25 year fit of righteous anti-plagarism, and lost track of real priorities in life and living.
But it's your life and you choose what is really important to you.
I care not one bit about copyrights on these things. I'm sorry to see it bog down people the way it does. It looks very contrived and artificial to me.
Let's talk about more important issues, OK.
How's Speaking in Tongues doing for you these days?
Wow Mike I did a double take reading your post!
And here’s why:
instead of your typical beating around the bush on the plagiarism issue – you talked about it directly, revealing your true feelings – and for that I thank you !!!!!
I sincerely mean that – I’m not being sarcastic.
You said “I care not one bit about copyrights on these things. I'm sorry to see it bog down people the way it does. It looks very contrived and artificial to me.
Let's talk about more important issues, OK.”
Now it’s crystal clear to me what your opinion is of copyrights, plagiarism, proper citation, real scholars and what's due them – and I’m sorry you have such a low opinion of all that – but I will respect your opinion and hopefully you will understand I have a much higher opinion on them than you do.
As far as us talking about more important issues – we’ll have to come to some agreement on what is more important. As I’ve already indicated there will be some differences of opinion as to what matters have greater significance or value – hopefully we can amicably figure that out...since your last words were “How's Speaking in Tongues doing for you these days?” I figure we can start there...I’m not sure if you said that sarcastically or if you are indicating that is the first of the more important issues you want to talk about...if you intended to convey contempt...well, let’s just leave it at that. If you really do want to talk about speaking in tongues maybe that would warrant a new thread – I’ve already expressed my opinion on speaking in tongues on a few threads already but I always enjoy the opportunity to reiterate my views.
In closing, I wanted to clarify my intentions and the thought behind my posts. I was not making fun of you. My target is usually wierwille and all the deceitful tactics he utilized. That is an important issue to me because in my opinion lying and stealing on a grand scale is wrong. Obviously, you have a different opinion on that.
1. It would take too long to document for everyone's micro examination. Besides you all are poised to reject whatever I say here on my personal benefits. I suspect, but would love to be wrong, that you and others will be totally unimpressed with most of my reports. The subtle things you'll say (I predict) that they aren't substantial enough, and the substantial things you'll find another way to write off. Please tell me your motivation in asking me this is not to play another 100 rounds of "Gotcha" like in previous years.
One of the biggest learning things for me was the expounding in two collateral chapters on “Be anxious for nothing” verse in Philippians. I worked those two chapters for many months and could mentally see them as a very large context for that one verse. Now when I repeat the verse to myself, a whole barrage of blessings and associations rain down on my head. I understand now HOW to not be anxious, how to turn it off when it comes on.
2. In addition to my Deadhead friends, the Geer Group here has dropped Geer and are on their own. We started getting along again 10 years ago. I often clean windows with one of their ministers, and we have rich fellowship for hours. I attend a meeting about twice a year, so far.
I’m also getting to know (and re-know) lots of pro-PFAL grads on Facebook.
I’ve been to several TWI meetings in the past few years, and have connected well with at least one leader there. The old guard there is getting old, frail, and dying. I find the new leaders very approachable. They know things went wrong there, and they are trying to make it change faster.
3. You, Ken Kesey, and I all agree that Jack Nicholson was the WRONG actor to play McMurphy. Those who read the book REALLY know this. The book is 10 times richer than the movie.
Nurse Rachet played the Pharasees. The doctor played the Romans… It’s been 25 years since I read it, so I may have that wrong.
The thing is McMurphy sacrificed his life for his lowly friends. Kesey was secretly teaching this to the godless Beatniks he was hanging out with at Stanford in 1961.
I’ve studied this Kesey connection to Christianity since 1987. It is not well known, and usually suppressed.
Kesey prepared the hippies with this book to later become the light-bearers of PFAL. If it weren’t for hippies vouching for VPW I’d have never given him 5 whole minutes of my attention.
#Bullspit, Mike. As internet vernacular has progressed in the three years since you last "graced" us with your insight, "pictures or it didn't happen." I doubt anyone here would care whether you have pictures or not. But if you have no claims to make, you have no claims to make.
In your case, it just didn't happen. If you're so excited about getting results by applying PFLAP in your life, you wouldn't care if people didn't believe you (or, as you put it, rejected your claims).
1. It would take too long to document for everyone's micro examination. Besides you all are poised to reject whatever I say here on my personal benefits. I suspect, but would love to be wrong, that you and others will be totally unimpressed with most of my reports.
Only posers would care whether anyone believes them or not. Are you a poser? Are you a faker? Or are you "excited about your ambassadorship?"
So Mike, how do you "act him out" when you're witnessing (exercising your ambassadorship)?
Do you hmmm and ummm like you do with us? Do you obfuscate like you do with us? Or do you boldly proclaim what God and Jesus Christ (and Wierwille and his PFLAP class) mean to you? Do you tell them how you apply the principles and what happens as a result? Or do you shrink into meaningless words like you do with us?
Mike said, in JohnJ's thread,
I was taught that Jesus' current spiritual presence is within us, spiritually as the mind of Christ, and we're supposed to "act him out" into the open for others to see while they can't see him physically. This is what ambassadorship means to me.
Am I the only one who thinks Bullinger's Figures of Speech sound a WHOLE LOT like Harry Potter spells?
I think he invented a lot of his FoS - not all of them.
I have talked with academicians, one a very respected, genuinely published theologian with mighty tomes to his name, and questioned them about whether xxx FoS fits with what they're saying about yyy in the Bible. Guaranteed blank looks; they've never heard of the FoS xxx.
"pictures or it didn't happen." I doubt anyone here would care whether you have pictures or not. But if you have no claims to make, you have no claims to make.
I think he invented a lot of his FoS - not all of them.
I have talked with academicians, one a very respected, genuinely published theologian with mighty tomes to his name, and questioned them about whether xxx FoS fits with what they're saying about yyy in the Bible. Guaranteed blank looks; they've never heard of the FoS xxx.
I think VPW predicted the reaction you describe on FoS. The academicians are way behind on that.
Instead of looking at that academician's "heavy tome" as a credential, you should have asked those who read the book if it helped them.
I'm not trying to keep track of all that's said in this thread, but I think you asked about SIT. I remembered another benefit I've noticed in highlights lately. When pulling my hair out dealing with difficult believer personalities, I find great rest in SIT. Instead of my English "self talk" chatter trying to come up with the right words to help this difficult person next time I see them,,, instead of that scene, I now revert to SIT which is perfect prayer for the same difficult person.
instead of your typical beating around the bush on the plagiarism issue – you talked about it directly, revealing your true feelings – and for that I thank you !!!!!
I sincerely mean that – I’m not being sarcastic.
You said “I care not one bit about copyrights on these things. I'm sorry to see it bog down people the way it does. It looks very contrived and artificial to me.
Let's talk about more important issues, OK.”
Now it’s crystal clear to me what your opinion is of copyrights, plagiarism, proper citation, real scholars and what's due them – and I’m sorry you have such a low opinion of all that – but I will respect your opinion and hopefully you will understand I have a much higher opinion on them than you do.
As far as us talking about more important issues – we’ll have to come to some agreement on what is more important. As I’ve already indicated there will be some differences of opinion as to what matters have greater significance or value – hopefully we can amicably figure that out...since your last words were “How's Speaking in Tongues doing for you these days?” I figure we can start there...I’m not sure if you said that sarcastically or if you are indicating that is the first of the more important issues you want to talk about...if you intended to convey contempt...well, let’s just leave it at that. If you really do want to talk about speaking in tongues maybe that would warrant a new thread – I’ve already expressed my opinion on speaking in tongues on a few threads already but I always enjoy the opportunity to reiterate my views.
In closing, I wanted to clarify my intentions and the thought behind my posts. I was not making fun of you. My target is usually wierwille and all the deceitful tactics he utilized. That is an important issue to me because in my opinion lying and stealing on a grand scale is wrong. Obviously, you have a different opinion on that.
T-Bone, I though it was always my position that FOR REVELATIONS from God, there can be no legitimate owner or copywrite owner. It is in this category I look at the priorities attached to copyrights and judicial law as PUNY by comparison to the real ownership God claims to His own revelations.
I think copyrights are fine for worldly matters. When two jurisdictions conflict (God's and man's) then I care nothing about man's.
Enjoying it daily. Favorite is speaking in tongues during worship time at church. (Music is So loud no one can hear)
That's great to hear. Think of how many THOUSANDS of others have SIT now to enjoy! We were a part of a huge move from God. God used flawed ministers (like us) to make this available around the world.
I like singing in tongues to loud Rock music while I dance.
So Mike, how do you "act him out" when you're witnessing (exercising your ambassadorship)?
Do you hmmm and ummm like you do with us? Do you obfuscate like you do with us? Or do you boldly proclaim what God and Jesus Christ (and Wierwille and his PFLAP class) mean to you? Do you tell them how you apply the principles and what happens as a result? Or do you shrink into meaningless words like you do with us?
Mike said, in JohnJ's thread,
Rocky, if you really don't know what I mean by acting him out I feel sorry for you. I hope you actually DO know the answer to this, and that you can do it also.
If you really are impoverished in this area, and are seeking my help, then your first job is to convince me that you really want my help, and you are not playing "Gotchya" here. That may be at task too big for you.
Meanwhile, do you think the Padres have a crack at the Pennant this year?
Hi Mike ! If you can explain what the four things are in Proverbs 30:18,19 that Solomon couldn't understand, you might get my attention :)
That's an interesting "tipping point" you are perched on, Allan. You sound a little like Columbo stalking his suspect.
Actually, in recent years I have latched on bigtime to HOW sailboats work. It utterly fascinates me, the way they can move AGAINST the wind, and to be able to travel FASTER than the wind. It has inspired me to work out a whole theory on free will mechanisms in the human brain.
If I continue in this vein, will that get one quarter of your attention?
Are you currently working any or all four of those items? You have my attention if you have any light on them.
This might be a good time FOR ME to apologize to all of GSC for SOOOOOO much wasted time.
This might also be a good time to point out that, in view of today's current global situation, the expression "second wave" doesn't exactly conjure up any positive thoughts.
T-Bone, I though it was always my position that FOR REVELATIONS from God, there can be no legitimate owner or copywrite owner. It is in this category I look at the priorities attached to copyrights and judicial law as PUNY by comparison to the real ownership God claims to His own revelations.
I think copyrights are fine for worldly matters. When two jurisdictions conflict (God's and man's) then I care nothing about man's.
Plagiarism is the practice of taking someone else's work or ideas and passing them off as one's own. That is bothstealingand lying.
There are numerous passages throughout the Bible that indicatebothstealingandlyingare wrong. Obviously copyrights and judicial law concur with the Bible on this matter.
Are you going for an Alan-Desrshowitz-for-the-defense-of-unabashed-plagiarism-and-other-con-jobs move? you might want to consider a different strategy to defend your admiration of wierwille…
...And actually you don’t need to defend your admiration for wierwille. You can admire whoever you want for whatever reasons you want to admire the person. But don’t kid yourself into thinking you can sell others on “the greatness of wierwille”. ...Been there done that…I escaped that nonsense years ago.
But don’t be dismayed...
There is hope! there is a way out of the rabbit hole, Mike!
Maybe it’s time to suck it up and deal with self-deception.
some food for thought:
We deceive ourselves because we don’t have enough psychological strength to admit the truth and deal with the consequences that will follow. ..by Courtney Warren
Self-deception is a process of denying or rationalizing away the relevance, significance, or importance of opposing evidence and logical argument. Self-deception involves convincing oneself of a truth (or lack of truth) so that one does not reveal any self-knowledge of the deception….from Wikipedia
Plagiarism is the practice of taking someone else's work or ideas and passing them off as one's own. That is bothstealingand lying.
There are numerous passages throughout the Bible that indicatebothstealingandlyingare wrong. Obviously copyrights and judicial law concur with the Bible on this matter.
Are you going for an Alan-Desrshowitz-for-the-defense-of-unabashed-plagiarism-and-other-con-jobs move? you might want to consider a different strategy to defend your admiration of wierwille…
...And actually you don’t need to defend your admiration for wierwille. You can admire whoever you want for whatever reasons you want to admire the person. But don’t kid yourself into thinking you can sell others on “the greatness of wierwille”. ...Been there done that…I escaped that nonsense years ago.
But don’t be dismayed...
There is hope! there is a way out of the rabbit hole, Mike!
Maybe it’s time to suck it up and deal with self-deception.
some food for thought:
We deceive ourselves because we don’t have enough psychological strength to admit the truth and deal with the consequences that will follow. ..by Courtney Warren
Self-deception is a process of denying or rationalizing away the relevance, significance, or importance of opposing evidence and logical argument. Self-deception involves convincing oneself of a truth (or lack of truth) so that one does not reveal any self-knowledge of the deception….from Wikipedia
T-Bone, one of the most extensively covered topics I handled in my active years here was this plagiarism issue. You and most others rejected all my points then, and probably can't remember all of them. I do; most of them. I feel no need to continue with you on this. What would be the point?
I am thankful that I had the chance to put all my ducks in a row, and in writing, here. What I don't remember I can look up in my private GreaseSpot archive. But I remember enough usually to help grads perplexed by this issue, thanks to all the practice I got here.
I'm sure God will generously reward all those writers who served as sources for VPW, and He will reward VPW for all his actions that were right in heart as he served others, just as He will reward you for all those people you help to see that God is love. So, relax. Everyone will get paid, properly.
I doubt if you can count on any rewards for you crusade against plagiarism, though. I'm Lolling Out Loud.
I think VPW predicted the reaction you describe on FoS. The academicians are way behind on that.
Instead of looking at that academician's "heavy tome" as a credential, you should have asked those who read the book if it helped them.
I know some seriously smart people, Mike. Like, seriously. Theologians (and yes, he's a respected international expert), linguists and English teachers, and others whose livelihood depends on words.
Bullinger had some serious creds, too, and an intense background in Hebrew and Greek. I don't know if he made up these FoS, but if nobody else has heard of them... I wonder...
Of course, if a clever preacher from Ohio (and a non-academician) knows better... I'd have more confidence in that preacher if he understood tenses in English verbs, even the more simple English tenses that I know I learned in primary school and developed an understanding of in secondary school... but that preacher doesn't understand simple verb construction at all so I genuinely doubt his comprehension of more complex FoS.
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Twinky
Hello Mike. I've kinda missed you round here. Could always rely on you to make a point that would stir up Cafe denizens. Was wondering what had happened to you. You went away to study PFAL more de
Raf
Am I the only one who thinks Bullinger's Figures of Speech sound a WHOLE LOT like Harry Potter spells? Condescensio! Hypocatastasis! Asyndeton! Polysyndeton! Expecto-Runaroundem!
cman
So the idea is that if specific things come together than things happen. And these things that contribute to the outcome, and the outcome itself, are, or can be known. Some kind of scientific or philo
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T-Bone
Wow Mike I did a double take reading your post!
And here’s why:
instead of your typical beating around the bush on the plagiarism issue – you talked about it directly, revealing your true feelings – and for that I thank you !!!!!
I sincerely mean that – I’m not being sarcastic.
You said “I care not one bit about copyrights on these things. I'm sorry to see it bog down people the way it does. It looks very contrived and artificial to me.
Let's talk about more important issues, OK.”
Now it’s crystal clear to me what your opinion is of copyrights, plagiarism, proper citation, real scholars and what's due them – and I’m sorry you have such a low opinion of all that – but I will respect your opinion and hopefully you will understand I have a much higher opinion on them than you do.
As far as us talking about more important issues – we’ll have to come to some agreement on what is more important. As I’ve already indicated there will be some differences of opinion as to what matters have greater significance or value – hopefully we can amicably figure that out...since your last words were “How's Speaking in Tongues doing for you these days?” I figure we can start there...I’m not sure if you said that sarcastically or if you are indicating that is the first of the more important issues you want to talk about...if you intended to convey contempt...well, let’s just leave it at that. If you really do want to talk about speaking in tongues maybe that would warrant a new thread – I’ve already expressed my opinion on speaking in tongues on a few threads already but I always enjoy the opportunity to reiterate my views.
In closing, I wanted to clarify my intentions and the thought behind my posts. I was not making fun of you. My target is usually wierwille and all the deceitful tactics he utilized. That is an important issue to me because in my opinion lying and stealing on a grand scale is wrong. Obviously, you have a different opinion on that.
Edited by T-Boneformatting & typos
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penguin2
Enjoying it daily. Favorite is speaking in tongues during worship time at church. (Music is So loud no one can hear)
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Rocky
#Bullspit, Mike. As internet vernacular has progressed in the three years since you last "graced" us with your insight, "pictures or it didn't happen." I doubt anyone here would care whether you have pictures or not. But if you have no claims to make, you have no claims to make.
In your case, it just didn't happen. If you're so excited about getting results by applying PFLAP in your life, you wouldn't care if people didn't believe you (or, as you put it, rejected your claims).
Only posers would care whether anyone believes them or not. Are you a poser? Are you a faker? Or are you "excited about your ambassadorship?"
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Rocky
So Mike, how do you "act him out" when you're witnessing (exercising your ambassadorship)?
Do you hmmm and ummm like you do with us? Do you obfuscate like you do with us? Or do you boldly proclaim what God and Jesus Christ (and Wierwille and his PFLAP class) mean to you? Do you tell them how you apply the principles and what happens as a result? Or do you shrink into meaningless words like you do with us?
Mike said, in JohnJ's thread,
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Twinky
I think he invented a lot of his FoS - not all of them.
I have talked with academicians, one a very respected, genuinely published theologian with mighty tomes to his name, and questioned them about whether xxx FoS fits with what they're saying about yyy in the Bible. Guaranteed blank looks; they've never heard of the FoS xxx.
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Allan
Hi Mike ! If you can explain what the four things are in Proverbs 30:18,19 that Solomon couldn't understand, you might get my attention :)
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Rocky
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Mike
I think VPW predicted the reaction you describe on FoS. The academicians are way behind on that.
Instead of looking at that academician's "heavy tome" as a credential, you should have asked those who read the book if it helped them.
I'm not trying to keep track of all that's said in this thread, but I think you asked about SIT. I remembered another benefit I've noticed in highlights lately. When pulling my hair out dealing with difficult believer personalities, I find great rest in SIT. Instead of my English "self talk" chatter trying to come up with the right words to help this difficult person next time I see them,,, instead of that scene, I now revert to SIT which is perfect prayer for the same difficult person.
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Mike
T-Bone, I though it was always my position that FOR REVELATIONS from God, there can be no legitimate owner or copywrite owner. It is in this category I look at the priorities attached to copyrights and judicial law as PUNY by comparison to the real ownership God claims to His own revelations.
I think copyrights are fine for worldly matters. When two jurisdictions conflict (God's and man's) then I care nothing about man's.
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Mike
That's great to hear. Think of how many THOUSANDS of others have SIT now to enjoy! We were a part of a huge move from God. God used flawed ministers (like us) to make this available around the world.
I like singing in tongues to loud Rock music while I dance.
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Mike
Rocky, if you really don't know what I mean by acting him out I feel sorry for you. I hope you actually DO know the answer to this, and that you can do it also.
Edited by MikeIf you really are impoverished in this area, and are seeking my help, then your first job is to convince me that you really want my help, and you are not playing "Gotchya" here. That may be at task too big for you.
Meanwhile, do you think the Padres have a crack at the Pennant this year?
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Mike
That's an interesting "tipping point" you are perched on, Allan. You sound a little like Columbo stalking his suspect.
Actually, in recent years I have latched on bigtime to HOW sailboats work. It utterly fascinates me, the way they can move AGAINST the wind, and to be able to travel FASTER than the wind. It has inspired me to work out a whole theory on free will mechanisms in the human brain.
If I continue in this vein, will that get one quarter of your attention?
Are you currently working any or all four of those items? You have my attention if you have any light on them.
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Raf
This might be a good time FOR ME to apologize to all of GSC for SOOOOOO much wasted time.
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waysider
No need to apologize. Just put on some Phish, crank up the volume and dance around the room. I hear it's quite a spiritual experience.
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Raf
Make it the Bodeans and you've got a deal.
P.S. Everyone fakes tongues.
Every. Last. One.
;)
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waysider
This might also be a good time to point out that, in view of today's current global situation, the expression "second wave" doesn't exactly conjure up any positive thoughts.
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T-Bone
Plagiarism is the practice of taking someone else's work or ideas and passing them off as one's own. That is both stealing and lying.
There are numerous passages throughout the Bible that indicate both stealing and lying are wrong. Obviously copyrights and judicial law concur with the Bible on this matter.
Are you going for an Alan-Desrshowitz-for-the-defense-of-unabashed-plagiarism-and-other-con-jobs move? you might want to consider a different strategy to defend your admiration of wierwille…
...And actually you don’t need to defend your admiration for wierwille. You can admire whoever you want for whatever reasons you want to admire the person. But don’t kid yourself into thinking you can sell others on “the greatness of wierwille”. ...Been there done that…I escaped that nonsense years ago.
But don’t be dismayed...
There is hope! there is a way out of the rabbit hole, Mike!
Maybe it’s time to suck it up and deal with self-deception.
some food for thought:
We deceive ourselves because we don’t have enough psychological strength to admit the truth and deal with the consequences that will follow. ..by Courtney Warren
Self-deception is a process of denying or rationalizing away the relevance, significance, or importance of opposing evidence and logical argument. Self-deception involves convincing oneself of a truth (or lack of truth) so that one does not reveal any self-knowledge of the deception….from Wikipedia
Edited by T-Boneformatting & typos
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Raf
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T-Bone
true that...
And don't get cornered into a conversation
Edited by T-BoneRevision
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Mike
T-Bone, one of the most extensively covered topics I handled in my active years here was this plagiarism issue. You and most others rejected all my points then, and probably can't remember all of them. I do; most of them. I feel no need to continue with you on this. What would be the point?
Edited by MikeI am thankful that I had the chance to put all my ducks in a row, and in writing, here. What I don't remember I can look up in my private GreaseSpot archive. But I remember enough usually to help grads perplexed by this issue, thanks to all the practice I got here.
I'm sure God will generously reward all those writers who served as sources for VPW, and He will reward VPW for all his actions that were right in heart as he served others, just as He will reward you for all those people you help to see that God is love. So, relax. Everyone will get paid, properly.
I doubt if you can count on any rewards for you crusade against plagiarism, though. I'm Lolling Out Loud.
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Twinky
I know some seriously smart people, Mike. Like, seriously. Theologians (and yes, he's a respected international expert), linguists and English teachers, and others whose livelihood depends on words.
Bullinger had some serious creds, too, and an intense background in Hebrew and Greek. I don't know if he made up these FoS, but if nobody else has heard of them... I wonder...
Of course, if a clever preacher from Ohio (and a non-academician) knows better... I'd have more confidence in that preacher if he understood tenses in English verbs, even the more simple English tenses that I know I learned in primary school and developed an understanding of in secondary school... but that preacher doesn't understand simple verb construction at all so I genuinely doubt his comprehension of more complex FoS.
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T-Bone
Exposing the lies of wierwille and helping folks overcome self-deception is its own reward.
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Raf
Plagiarism was his way of letting you know he thought you were stupid.
Copyrighting his work was his way of letting you know, no, really, he thought you were stupid.
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Mike
I can testify to the factuality of this! Except I do it to Grateful Dead recordings in my earbuds.
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