Mike, I think T-Bone asked you a very specific question.
But based on your reply, I'll rephrase it a little.
In what way are 99% of people not loving? And how do you square that with people being a mixed bag, who can be very loving in one situation and (seemingly) a little less loving in another situation? Who got what wrong? Be specific.
Mike, I think T-Bone asked you a very specific question.
But based on your reply, I'll rephrase it a little.
In what way are 99% of people not loving? And how do you square that with people being a mixed bag, who can be very loving in one situation and (seemingly) a little less loving in another situation? Who got what wrong? Be specific.
Twinky, I answered T-Bone in a very specific way. And one that focuses on the love and not on what might need covered. In other words, I didn't fall for his bait.
Instead of T-Bone and others here learning from me and my impressions on this,
he and you should go to the scriptures I listed and ask God to be specific
as to what sins He had in mind.
Love energizes believing and casts out fear. We, as a group, didn't do so well there in the 80s, compared to how some localities did in the 70s. After 1986, I was shocked at the lack of love everywhere I looked in the exploding ministry.
On the off-chance you're reading what I'm writing at the moment (the odds aren't so hot by now)...
You posted something VAGUE. T-Bone asked what you-the person who posted- meant with your VAGUE comment when you posted it. You're replying that they should ask God.
The thing is....
God isn't the one who posted it. You posted it, and were asked a simple question. The idea that even SIMPLE questions, to you, are TRAPS shows an inability and unwillingness to communicate clearly, and perhaps a lack of confidence in what you're posting. A refusal to discuss what you yourself posted shows a disinterest in discussion in a discussion forum. We've had plenty of that from everybody else who came here solely to advertise.
You're sending a message rather clearly- whether intentionally or not.
Sorry I haven’t got back to you sooner…it seems others have already pointed out you’re up to your sidestepping antics again…you don’t have to play stupid – I asked YOU to clarify a statement that YOU had made…your “answers” are so funny…and pathetic too…pathetically funny…
I will humor you for a moment on this one verse - just so I can show our viewers at home the “greatness” of your shenanigans…anyway - I Peter 4:8 NASB
Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins.
You know, your little game reminds me of the devil tempting Jesus in Matthew 4
Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted[a] by the devil. 2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”
4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’
5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written: “‘He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’
7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.
Have you no shame…trying to protect that wascally weasel wierwille by finagling Scripture. I’ll take a cue from Jesus Christ and answer Scripture with Scripture.
James 5:20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
The NLT puts it this way
you can be sure that whoever brings the sinner back from wandering will save that person from death and bring about the forgiveness of many sins.
In light of James 5:20 and in the broad context of sin – the idea expressed in I Peter 4:8 does NOT preclude the discipline of a sinning unrepentant church member – compare
please read Matthew 18 and I Corinthians 5 – I made it easy for you – just click on the hyperlinks – if you’re not suffering from some wierwille induced brain fog – those passages should answer your question about what kinds of sins God had in mind when He inspired Peter to write his epistle…from what I gather reading in Matt. 18 & I Cor. 5 - it appears God had ALL KINDS of SINS in mind....that's ALL WITHOUT EXCEPTION
= = == =
So…let’s try it again
On 5/6/2021 at 11:04 AM, Mike said: I am convinced that 99% of all the woes reported here are due to us all NOT GETTING IT RIGHT the first times.
~ ~ ~ ~
Hi Mike,
what are “the Woes” that standout the most?
what was/were the thing/things that people didn’t get right the first time?
Twinky, I answered T-Bone in a very specific way. And one that focuses on the love and not on what might need covered. In other words, I didn't fall for his bait.
Instead of T-Bone and others here learning from me and my impressions on this,
he and you should go to the scriptures I listed and ask God to be specific
as to what sins He had in mind.
Love energizes believing and casts out fear. We, as a group, didn't do so well there in the 80s, compared to how some localities did in the 70s. After 1986, I was shocked at the lack of love everywhere I looked in the exploding ministry.
Love covers a multitude of sins.
I'm for love.
You know this logic sounds remarkably like the logic that VPW used to excuse his adulterous actions. Some people weren't mature enough to handle that kind of love or some such rationalization.
If only people had more love.
Free love.
That's how the sickness gets transmitted like a virus into another sick soul. Sick logic.
Telling people that they are not loving enough is not a loving thing to say. That was always said in twi, not loving enough - not believing enough, and other such non-sense. Adding stress is not an answer.
Leaving twi was a great stress relief. Leaving twi doctrine wasn't as easy but it finally happened. I admit that some of it is still in me, and I think it's the good that happened. For long held beliefs to die brings an awakening that cannot be denied.
Mike: Here's the rule book. You go away and find out what you did wrong!
Great Scott, Twinky!
How wrong can you get !!??
Here is the rule book.
You go find out how to cover the sins of those who wronged YOU.
Hint: It's called love.
I don't have the time, nor the desire to debate details of ALL what went wrong, except for those who wronged me and those whom I wronged.
There comes a time when we all need to take the Light we were given and love those who have never had the chance to hear it.
All this focus on past sins is preventing your spiritual growth. If you are wondering why you are not a spiritual superman like Jesus, THIS is the reason: sin focus.
There comes a time when you should grow your own tree,
and see how much good fruit you can harvest from it.
All this focus on past sins is preventing your spiritual growth. If you are wondering why you are not a spiritual superman like Jesus, THIS is the reason: sin focus.
Wow, thanks for that very perceptive comment, Mike.
If you mean "your" as in my own individual "spiritual growth," hahaha, I'd invite you to come and see the things that I do.
If you mean "your" as in this or some other group collectively, well, try really reading what people post. You will see much "spiritual growth."
And if you mean "your" as in your own spiritual growth, I'd suggest you get your head out of the Orange book and start reading then living the Grace highway made available to us by the love of the Lord Jesus Christ (remember him?). You could also try reading and thinking about some of your own posts - ideally, before you press the Submit button.
Mike, I think T-Bone asked you a very specific question.
But based on your reply, I'll rephrase it a little.
In what way are 99% of people not loving? And how do you square that with people being a mixed bag, who can be very loving in one situation and (seemingly) a little less loving in another situation? Who got what wrong? Be specific.
By the way, you still didn't answer this. But that's no surprise.
Here is the rule book.
You go find out how to cover the sins of those who wronged YOU.
Hint: It's called love.
I don't have the time, nor the desire to debate details of ALL what went wrong, except for those who wronged me and those whom I wronged.
There comes a time when we all need to take the Light we were given and love those who have never had the chance to hear it.
All this focus on past sins is preventing your spiritual growth. If you are wondering why you are not a spiritual superman like Jesus, THIS is the reason: sin focus.
There comes a time when you should grow your own tree,
and see how much good fruit you can harvest from it.
All this focus on past sins is preventing your spiritual growth. If you are wondering why you are not a spiritual superman like Jesus, THIS is the reason: sin focus.
...Here is the rule book.
You go find out how to cover the sins of those who wronged YOU.
Hint: It's called love.
I don't have the time, nor the desire to debate details of ALL what went wrong, except for those who wronged me and those whom I wronged.
There comes a time when we all need to take the Light we were given and love those who have never had the chance to hear it.
All this focus on past sins is preventing your spiritual growth. If you are wondering why you are not a spiritual superman like Jesus, THIS is the reason: sin focus.
There comes a time when you should grow your own tree,
and see how much good fruit you can harvest from it.
Time is short.
Trying a different format - I have numbered Mike’s statements and then I will respond to each number – maybe it will make for an easier read…
Mike said:
…Here is the rule book. 1.) You go find out how to cover the sins of those who wronged YOU. Hint: It's called love.
2.) I don't have the time, nor the desire to debate details of ALL what went wrong, except for those who wronged me and those whom I wronged.
3.) There comes a time when we all need to take the Light we were given and love those who have never had the chance to hear it.
4.) All this focus on past sins is preventing your spiritual growth. If you are wondering why you are not a spiritual superman like Jesus, THIS is the reason: sin focus.
5.) There comes a time when you should grow your own tree, and see how much good fruit you can harvest from it.
6.) Time is short.
= = = = =
T-Bone’s reply to each of the above points:
1.) Please clarify what you mean by “cover the sins of those who wronged YOU”…the word “cover” has several meanings – a quick internet search shows the following appear to be the most common usage: 1. put something on top of or in front of (something), especially in order to protect or conceal it. 2. something, such as darkness, that screens, conceals, or disguises. 3. extend over (an area) 4. deal with (a subject) by describing or analyzing its most important aspects or events 5. In music a recording or performance of a song that was previously recorded or popularized by another.
Perhaps we’re all thinking differently on this…going on how much you defend wierwille and PFAL, it seems to me you utilize # 1, 2, and 5 – 1. to cover, protect or conceal the sins/shortcomings/insidious nature of wierwille/PFAL…2. and how you dodge questions or confuse the issues provides darkness…conceals or disguises your extreme admiration for wierwille/PFAL…and 5. it’s the same song and dance that wierwille performed to lead people astray – except your cover of it is some next-level-obfuscating-bull$hit...as weird as it sounds for me to say this - I prefer the original wierwille/PFAL over your Bizarro version...excuse me for bringing up the past - I told you before that you make wierwille/PFAL sound worse than it really is...I didn't know that was possible...you've exceeded my expectations
My intent has been to cover the sins/shortcomings/insidious nature of wierwille/PFAL also – but my "cover" is usage 4 – dealing with many issues and problematic ideas by describing and analyzing the most important aspects…don’t mean to brag but I have done that NUMEROUS times just on this thread.
2.) Your not wanting to debate details of ALL what went wrong – pretty much answers my questions earlier (“what are “the Woes” that standout the most? what was/were the thing/things that people didn’t get right the first time?”). So I won’t expect anything further from you on that…I appreciate your roundabout response…better than nothing I suppose...I'd have a little respect for you if you'd just be honest - and reply with something like "I don't know"
3.) You said: “There comes a time when we all need to take the Light we were given and love those who have never had the chance to hear it.” Amen to that! And I hope you will try to understand that may mean different things to different people…For instance – I am so thankful for the light that entered my soul when I broke free of the harmful and controlling mindset of a harmful and controlling cult like The Way International. There is something that so compels me to share my experience on Grease Spot…you’re right... it has to be love – and I so appreciate Grease Spot – that it’s a tremendous platform of freedom’s voice! it's great how folks who have been ripped off by a harmful and controlling cult like The Way International now have a chance to hear the other side of the story on Grease Spot Cafe.
4.) Now you’ve got me a little confused on this point – you said “All this focus on past sins is preventing your spiritual growth. If you are wondering why you are not a spiritual superman like Jesus.” Whose past sins are you talking about? And who put you in charge of my spiritual growth? Maybe you should stay in your own lane…by the way, I’ve never wondered why I’m not a spiritual superman like Jesus. Probably cuz I still retain some old Roman Catholic habits – I usually feel guilty for what an a$$hole I am to God and people – but I’m glad Jesus loves me anyway…and believe it or not I’m working on trying to be less of an a$$hole to God and others.
5.) You said “There comes a time when you should grow your own tree, and see how much good fruit you can harvest from it.” Amen to that! Don’t mean to brag – but I’ve got a big orchard going…something I’ve done even before I got in TWI was write down goals and issues I’m concerned with – it’s something I keep in the back of my At-A-Glance Weekly/Monthly Appointment Book…yeah – I’m an organizational nerd…that stuff is good for reminders – gets me to focus but also to look at the overall picture – covers stuff like my relationships with my wife, kids and friends…music theory, composition, playing bass…reading projects…Bible studies…philosophical and psychological studies…world history…military warfare…science and technology…art appreciation and creativity – I still like to draw…anyway – you get the idea.
Besides other outlets - some of the fruit of my labor I have shared on Grease Spot too.
6.) “Time is short”…yes it is…but something I’ve always wondered about – for someone who says they never have the time to read or discuss the deep analysis of wierwille/PFAL - you sure do spend a lot of time writing posts about how you never have the time to read or discuss the deep analysis of wierwille/PFAL .
that's all for now - have a good evening
Edited by T-Bone a six-point editing job - oh yeah !
" From 2002-2008 I was an advocate here that we return to PFAL to see how much we missed the first time(s), and to see how much we forgot or drifted from. I am convinced that 99% of all the woes reported here are due to us all NOT GETTING IT RIGHT the first times.
Now, on Feb 16, 2022 I am adding:
Yeah, and let me clarify that GETTING IT RIGHT means in it's fullness, AND with enough depth to withstand the onslaughts of the adversary to tear us away from the good we DID get partially right for a time."
"We did absorb SOME of what we were taught, and at times and wit some of us it worked VERY well. That's why proPFAL people are tenacious about the good, when they successfully resist focusing on sin and failures. That's why they are coming back."
===================
T-Bone, Feb 16, 2022.
"T-Bone’s reply to that:
Please be more specific. You can break it down point by point. What is the stuff that you think we missed, forgot, or drifted from the first time? Keep it simple. Let’s discuss one item at a time.
Also can you elaborate on EXACTLY what are the “99% of all the woes reported here are due to us all NOT GETTING IT RIGHT the first times.”
===========================
Mike, page 10, Feb 27, 2022.
"
I had posted much earlier:
On 5/6/2021 at 9:04 AM, Mike said:
I am convinced that 99% of all the woes reported here are due to us all NOT GETTING IT RIGHT the first times.
*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*
T-Bone, you ask about the woes that stand out TO WHOM the most?
I suggest you ask the same question of God, when He talks about these kinds of things. What kinds of multitudinous sins do you think God had in mind when He inspired Peter to write the following?
1 Peter 4:8 NIV
Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.
If we had gotten the LOVE part right, things would have gone better. How badly do you crave seeing a multitude of sins covered over with love? Do you think much on this verse, in this GreaseSpot atmosphere of exposing sins?"
"T-Bone, please let me know what you learn from all these verses, and about what specific kinds of woes we could have avoided, had we gotten down better the love part. "
===============================
Twinky, page 11, February 27, 2022.
"
Mike, I think T-Bone asked you a very specific question.
But based on your reply, I'll rephrase it a little.
In what way are 99% of people not loving? And how do you square that with people being a mixed bag, who can be very loving in one situation and (seemingly) a little less loving in another situation? Who got what wrong? Be specific."
=============================
Mike, page 11, Feb 27, 2022.
"Twinky, I answered T-Bone in a very specific way. And one that focuses on the love and not on what might need covered. In other words, I didn't fall for his bait."
==========================
T-Bone, page 11, Feb 27, 2022.
"
Hi Mike,
what are “the Woes” that standout the most?
what was/were the thing/things that people didn’t get right the first time?
here's your second chance "
---------------------------------------
Mike, page 11, Feb 27, 2022.
"All this focus on past sins is preventing your spiritual growth. If you are wondering why you are not a spiritual superman like Jesus, THIS is the reason: sin focus. "
So. what was Mike thinking of and trying not to say?
His claim is that "99%" of all the problems posted HERE (on the GSC) are because nobody's giving vpw a free pass on plagiarism, rape, simony, grand larceny, battery, menacing, and everything else I left out. If we want to see results on the same scale as The Lord Jesus Christ, we need to give vpw a free pass on all his crimes and the lives he ruined. If we don't stop posting about vpw's sins and crimes, then our spiritual growth will be STUNTED.
So, the "after" in this "before and after" is to get results on the same scale as Mike, who, having done that, must be demonstrating comparable results (i.e. Jesus Christ-class results.) Sadly, Mike has remained evasive all through the thread when asked about the results he's actually gotten, so we only have the INFERRED results.
In other words, Mike went on for pages, speaking in circumlocutions, refusing to get specific. What was it ALL about?
"Have you no shame…trying to protect that wascally weasel wierwille by finagling Scripture."
When it comes to trying to salvage the reputation of the plagiarizing rapist wierwille, Mike does NOT have any shame. He will finagle Scripture and anything else. By now, he's determined to go to the grave like this.
Sorry I haven’t got back to you sooner…it seems others have already pointed out you’re up to your sidestepping antics again…you don’t have to play stupid – I asked YOU to clarify a statement that YOU had made…your “answers” are so funny…and pathetic too…pathetically funny…
I will humor you for a moment on this one verse - just so I can show our viewers at home the “greatness” of your shenanigans…anyway - I Peter 4:8 NASB
Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins.
You know, your little game reminds me of the devil tempting Jesus in Matthew 4
Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted[a] by the devil. 2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”
4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’
5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written: “‘He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’
7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.
Have you no shame…trying to protect that wascally weasel wierwille by finagling Scripture. I’ll take a cue from Jesus Christ and answer Scripture with Scripture.
James 5:20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
The NLT puts it this way
you can be sure that whoever brings the sinner back from wandering will save that person from death and bring about the forgiveness of many sins.
In light of James 5:20 and in the broad context of sin – the idea expressed in I Peter 4:8 does NOT preclude the discipline of a sinning unrepentant church member – compare
please read Matthew 18 and I Corinthians 5 – I made it easy for you – just click on the hyperlinks – if you’re not suffering from some wierwille induced brain fog – those passages should answer your question about what kinds of sins God had in mind when He inspired Peter to write his epistle…from what I gather reading in Matt. 18 & I Cor. 5 - it appears God had ALL KINDS of SINS in mind....that's ALL WITHOUT EXCEPTION
= = == =
So…let’s try it again
On 5/6/2021 at 11:04 AM, Mike said: I am convinced that 99% of all the woes reported here are due to us all NOT GETTING IT RIGHT the first times.
~ ~ ~ ~
Hi Mike,
what are “the Woes” that standout the most?
what was/were the thing/things that people didn’t get right the first time?
here's your second chance
that's all for now
The only thing Mike wants us to change is to stop exposing victor paul wierwille's capital crimes, and how he should have been caught and put in jail- but avoided that by setting up a BRILLIANT network of spies and cronies around himself to catch anyone ready to expose him- and destroy that person's reputation first. It's all about forgiveness- of wierwille's crimes and nothing else.
Once again, there's that convenient fiction that everybody at the GSC spends all their free time throwing darts at photos of vpw, and that they never seem to leave the house and do ANYTHING constructive. It's a convenient fiction for those looking to fog the issues and throw up smokescreens. It's also easy to spot.
The only thing Mike wants us to change is to stop exposing victor paul wierwille's capital crimes, and how he should have been caught and put in jail- but avoided that by setting up a BRILLIANT network of spies and cronies around himself to catch anyone ready to expose him- and destroy that person's reputation first. It's all about forgiveness- of wierwille's crimes and nothing else.
Once again, there's that convenient fiction that everybody at the GSC spends all their free time throwing darts at photos of vpw, and that they never seem to leave the house and do ANYTHING constructive. It's a convenient fiction for those looking to fog the issues and throw up smokescreens. It's also easy to spot.
WordWolf,
that’s got to be one of the best summaries of Mike’s modus operandi by which crimes against logic, morality, social norms, and biblical hermeneutics are committed.
I can imagine this thread as a printed book titled
“The 2nd Wave of returning to PFAL has started...and Other Obfuscating Myths”
A compendium of the befuddling and self-righteous nonsense of a wierwille/PFAL fanatic with thoughtful analysis by other patrons of Grease Spot Café.
...and I think your summary should be prominently displayed on the dust cover jacket as a tease to whet the appetite of the curious reader…for now I have the next best thing – I constantly copy and paste each post on this thread into a Word doc – it’s currently at 114 pages – and I’ve been using a small font size of 10.5 to conserve space.
So. what was Mike thinking of and trying not to say?
His claim is that "99%" of all the problems posted HERE (on the GSC) are because nobody's giving vpw a free pass on plagiarism, rape, simony, grand larceny, battery, menacing, and everything else I left out. If we want to see results on the same scale as The Lord Jesus Christ, we need to give vpw a free pass on all his crimes and the lives he ruined. If we don't stop posting about vpw's sins and crimes, then our spiritual growth will be STUNTED.
On 3/1/2022 at 1:12 AM, WordWolf said:
In other words, Mike went on for pages, speaking in circumlocutions, refusing to get specific. What was it ALL about?
"Have you no shame…trying to protect that wascally weasel wierwille by finagling Scripture."
When it comes to trying to salvage the reputation of the plagiarizing rapist wierwille, Mike does NOT have any shame. He will finagle Scripture and anything else. By now, he's determined to go to the grave like this.
On 3/1/2022 at 1:15 AM, WordWolf said:
The only thing Mike wants us to change is to stop exposing victor paul wierwille's capital crimes, and how he should have been caught and put in jail- but avoided that by setting up a BRILLIANT network of spies and cronies around himself to catch anyone ready to expose him- and destroy that person's reputation first. It's all about forgiveness- of wierwille's crimes and nothing else.
Once again, there's that convenient fiction that everybody at the GSC spends all their free time throwing darts at photos of vpw, and that they never seem to leave the house and do ANYTHING constructive. It's a convenient fiction for those looking to fog the issues and throw up smokescreens. It's also easy to spot.
Those tactics along with another typical response that goes along the lines of " we're-all-sinners-here-so-what-gives-you-the-right-to-judge" brings to mind several logical fallacies used to derail a thoughtful discussion and distract from the main points of a dialog:
1.An appeal to hypocrisy also known as tu quoqe (a Latin term for 'you too', meaning a counter-accusation). Focuses on the hypocrisy of an opponent. The tu quoque fallacy deflects criticism away from oneself by accusing the other person of the same problem or something comparable. The tu quoque fallacy is an attempt to divert blame. The fallacy usually occurs when the arguer uses apparent hypocrisy to neutralize criticism and distract from the issue. From: 15 logical fallacies and Wikipedia – Tu quoque
2. Whataboutism – from a logical and argumentative point of view it is considered a variant of the Tu-quoque pattern, which is a subtype of the Ad-hominem argument. Whataboutism or whataboutery (as in "what about…?") denotes in a pejorative sense a procedure in which a critical question or argument is not answered or discussed but retorted with a critical counter-question which expresses a counter-accusation. The communication intent here is often to distract from the content of a topic (red herring). The goal may also be to question the justification for criticism, the legitimacy, integrity, and fairness of the critic, which can take on the character of discrediting the criticism, which may or may not be justified. Common accusations include double standards, and hypocrisy. From Wiki - whataboutism
3. Ad-hominem - (Latin for 'to the person'), short for argumentum ad hominem (Latin for 'argument to the person'), refers to several types of arguments, some but not all of which are fallacious. Typically, this term refers to a rhetorical strategy where the speaker attacks the character, motive, or some other attribute of the person making an argument rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself. The most common form of ad hominem is "A makes a claim x, B asserts that A holds a property that is unwelcome, and hence B concludes that argument x is wrong". From Wiki - Ad hominem
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Twinky
Hello Mike. I've kinda missed you round here. Could always rely on you to make a point that would stir up Cafe denizens. Was wondering what had happened to you. You went away to study PFAL more de
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Am I the only one who thinks Bullinger's Figures of Speech sound a WHOLE LOT like Harry Potter spells? Condescensio! Hypocatastasis! Asyndeton! Polysyndeton! Expecto-Runaroundem!
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Twinky
Mike, I think T-Bone asked you a very specific question.
But based on your reply, I'll rephrase it a little.
In what way are 99% of people not loving? And how do you square that with people being a mixed bag, who can be very loving in one situation and (seemingly) a little less loving in another situation? Who got what wrong? Be specific.
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waysider
Soooo...there were no people in The Way capable of love.
OKaaaay.
Got it.
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Mike
Twinky, I answered T-Bone in a very specific way. And one that focuses on the love and not on what might need covered. In other words, I didn't fall for his bait.
Instead of T-Bone and others here learning from me and my impressions on this,
he and you should go to the scriptures I listed and ask God to be specific
as to what sins He had in mind.
Love energizes believing and casts out fear. We, as a group, didn't do so well there in the 80s, compared to how some localities did in the 70s. After 1986, I was shocked at the lack of love everywhere I looked in the exploding ministry.
Love covers a multitude of sins.
I'm for love.
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WordWolf
On the off-chance you're reading what I'm writing at the moment (the odds aren't so hot by now)...
You posted something VAGUE. T-Bone asked what you-the person who posted- meant with your VAGUE comment when you posted it. You're replying that they should ask God.
The thing is....
God isn't the one who posted it. You posted it, and were asked a simple question. The idea that even SIMPLE questions, to you, are TRAPS shows an inability and unwillingness to communicate clearly, and perhaps a lack of confidence in what you're posting. A refusal to discuss what you yourself posted shows a disinterest in discussion in a discussion forum. We've had plenty of that from everybody else who came here solely to advertise.
You're sending a message rather clearly- whether intentionally or not.
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T-Bone
Hi Mike,
Sorry I haven’t got back to you sooner…it seems others have already pointed out you’re up to your sidestepping antics again…you don’t have to play stupid – I asked YOU to clarify a statement that YOU had made…your “answers” are so funny…and pathetic too…pathetically funny…
I will humor you for a moment on this one verse - just so I can show our viewers at home the “greatness” of your shenanigans…anyway - I Peter 4:8 NASB
Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins.
You know, your little game reminds me of the devil tempting Jesus in Matthew 4
Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted[a] by the devil. 2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”
4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’
5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written: “‘He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’
7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.
Have you no shame…trying to protect that wascally weasel wierwille by finagling Scripture. I’ll take a cue from Jesus Christ and answer Scripture with Scripture.
James 5:20
remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
The NLT puts it this way
you can be sure that whoever brings the sinner back from wandering will save that person from death and bring about the forgiveness of many sins.
In light of James 5:20 and in the broad context of sin – the idea expressed in I Peter 4:8 does NOT preclude the discipline of a sinning unrepentant church member – compare
Matthew 18:15-18 and I Corinthians 5
please read Matthew 18 and I Corinthians 5 – I made it easy for you – just click on the hyperlinks – if you’re not suffering from some wierwille induced brain fog – those passages should answer your question about what kinds of sins God had in mind when He inspired Peter to write his epistle…from what I gather reading in Matt. 18 & I Cor. 5 - it appears God had ALL KINDS of SINS in mind....that's ALL WITHOUT EXCEPTION
= = == =
So…let’s try it again
On 5/6/2021 at 11:04 AM, Mike said:
I am convinced that 99% of all the woes reported here are due to us all NOT GETTING IT RIGHT the first times.
~ ~ ~ ~
Hi Mike,
what are “the Woes” that standout the most?
what was/were the thing/things that people didn’t get right the first time?
here's your second chance
that's all for now
Edited by T-Bonerevision
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chockfull
You know this logic sounds remarkably like the logic that VPW used to excuse his adulterous actions. Some people weren't mature enough to handle that kind of love or some such rationalization.
If only people had more love.
Free love.
That's how the sickness gets transmitted like a virus into another sick soul. Sick logic.
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Twinky
Mike: You did wrong! You broke the rules!
Everyone else: What did we do wrong?
Mike: Here's the rule book. You go away and find out what you did wrong!
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cman
Telling people that they are not loving enough is not a loving thing to say. That was always said in twi, not loving enough - not believing enough, and other such non-sense. Adding stress is not an answer.
Leaving twi was a great stress relief. Leaving twi doctrine wasn't as easy but it finally happened. I admit that some of it is still in me, and I think it's the good that happened. For long held beliefs to die brings an awakening that cannot be denied.
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Mike
Great Scott, Twinky!
How wrong can you get !!??
Here is the rule book.
You go find out how to cover the sins of those who wronged YOU.
Hint: It's called love.
I don't have the time, nor the desire to debate details of ALL what went wrong, except for those who wronged me and those whom I wronged.
There comes a time when we all need to take the Light we were given and love those who have never had the chance to hear it.
All this focus on past sins is preventing your spiritual growth. If you are wondering why you are not a spiritual superman like Jesus, THIS is the reason: sin focus.
There comes a time when you should grow your own tree,
and see how much good fruit you can harvest from it.
Time is short.
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Twinky
Wow, thanks for that very perceptive comment, Mike.
If you mean "your" as in my own individual "spiritual growth," hahaha, I'd invite you to come and see the things that I do.
If you mean "your" as in this or some other group collectively, well, try really reading what people post. You will see much "spiritual growth."
And if you mean "your" as in your own spiritual growth, I'd suggest you get your head out of the Orange book and start reading then living the Grace highway made available to us by the love of the Lord Jesus Christ (remember him?). You could also try reading and thinking about some of your own posts - ideally, before you press the Submit button.
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Twinky
By the way, you still didn't answer this. But that's no surprise.
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Rocky
I can't imagine you expected him to (be able to) answer it.
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waysider
I'm fascinated, fascinated, I tell you.
Pray tell, do expound on the good fruit you've harvested from your own tree.
Time may be short, but I don't mind waiting.
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WordWolf
I TImothy 1:19-20
19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
II Timothy 4: 14-15
14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:
15 Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words.
==========================
Paul, baby?
All this focus on past sins is preventing your spiritual growth. If you are wondering why you are not a spiritual superman like Jesus, THIS is the reason: sin focus.
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T-Bone
Trying a different format - I have numbered Mike’s statements and then I will respond to each number – maybe it will make for an easier read…
Mike said:
…Here is the rule book.
1.) You go find out how to cover the sins of those who wronged YOU. Hint: It's called love.
2.) I don't have the time, nor the desire to debate details of ALL what went wrong, except for those who wronged me and those whom I wronged.
3.) There comes a time when we all need to take the Light we were given and love those who have never had the chance to hear it.
4.) All this focus on past sins is preventing your spiritual growth. If you are wondering why you are not a spiritual superman like Jesus, THIS is the reason: sin focus.
5.) There comes a time when you should grow your own tree, and see how much good fruit you can harvest from it.
6.) Time is short.
= = = = =
T-Bone’s reply to each of the above points:
1.) Please clarify what you mean by “cover the sins of those who wronged YOU”…the word “cover” has several meanings – a quick internet search shows the following appear to be the most common usage: 1. put something on top of or in front of (something), especially in order to protect or conceal it. 2. something, such as darkness, that screens, conceals, or disguises. 3. extend over (an area) 4. deal with (a subject) by describing or analyzing its most important aspects or events 5. In music a recording or performance of a song that was previously recorded or popularized by another.
Perhaps we’re all thinking differently on this…going on how much you defend wierwille and PFAL, it seems to me you utilize # 1, 2, and 5 – 1. to cover, protect or conceal the sins/shortcomings/insidious nature of wierwille/PFAL…2. and how you dodge questions or confuse the issues provides darkness…conceals or disguises your extreme admiration for wierwille/PFAL…and 5. it’s the same song and dance that wierwille performed to lead people astray – except your cover of it is some next-level-obfuscating-bull$hit...as weird as it sounds for me to say this - I prefer the original wierwille/PFAL over your Bizarro version...excuse me for bringing up the past - I told you before that you make wierwille/PFAL sound worse than it really is...I didn't know that was possible...you've exceeded my expectations
My intent has been to cover the sins/shortcomings/insidious nature of wierwille/PFAL also – but my "cover" is usage 4 – dealing with many issues and problematic ideas by describing and analyzing the most important aspects…don’t mean to brag but I have done that NUMEROUS times just on this thread.
2.) Your not wanting to debate details of ALL what went wrong – pretty much answers my questions earlier (“what are “the Woes” that standout the most? what was/were the thing/things that people didn’t get right the first time?”). So I won’t expect anything further from you on that…I appreciate your roundabout response…better than nothing I suppose...I'd have a little respect for you if you'd just be honest - and reply with something like "I don't know"
3.) You said: “There comes a time when we all need to take the Light we were given and love those who have never had the chance to hear it.” Amen to that! And I hope you will try to understand that may mean different things to different people…For instance – I am so thankful for the light that entered my soul when I broke free of the harmful and controlling mindset of a harmful and controlling cult like The Way International. There is something that so compels me to share my experience on Grease Spot…you’re right... it has to be love – and I so appreciate Grease Spot – that it’s a tremendous platform of freedom’s voice! it's great how folks who have been ripped off by a harmful and controlling cult like The Way International now have a chance to hear the other side of the story on Grease Spot Cafe.
4.) Now you’ve got me a little confused on this point – you said “All this focus on past sins is preventing your spiritual growth. If you are wondering why you are not a spiritual superman like Jesus.” Whose past sins are you talking about? And who put you in charge of my spiritual growth? Maybe you should stay in your own lane…by the way, I’ve never wondered why I’m not a spiritual superman like Jesus. Probably cuz I still retain some old Roman Catholic habits – I usually feel guilty for what an a$$hole I am to God and people – but I’m glad Jesus loves me anyway…and believe it or not I’m working on trying to be less of an a$$hole to God and others.
5.) You said “There comes a time when you should grow your own tree, and see how much good fruit you can harvest from it.” Amen to that! Don’t mean to brag – but I’ve got a big orchard going…something I’ve done even before I got in TWI was write down goals and issues I’m concerned with – it’s something I keep in the back of my At-A-Glance Weekly/Monthly Appointment Book…yeah – I’m an organizational nerd…that stuff is good for reminders – gets me to focus but also to look at the overall picture – covers stuff like my relationships with my wife, kids and friends…music theory, composition, playing bass…reading projects…Bible studies…philosophical and psychological studies…world history…military warfare…science and technology…art appreciation and creativity – I still like to draw…anyway – you get the idea.
Besides other outlets - some of the fruit of my labor I have shared on Grease Spot too.
6.) “Time is short”…yes it is…but something I’ve always wondered about – for someone who says they never have the time to read or discuss the deep analysis of wierwille/PFAL - you sure do spend a lot of time writing posts about how you never have the time to read or discuss the deep analysis of wierwille/PFAL .
that's all for now - have a good evening
Edited by T-Bonea six-point editing job - oh yeah !
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WordWolf
Ok, let's see. Time for a recap.
Page 1, Mike, opening post. May 6, 2021.
"I am convinced that 99% of all the woes reported here are due to us all NOT GETTING IT RIGHT the first times."
==================================================
Page 9, Mike, February 16, 2022.
" From 2002-2008 I was an advocate here that we return to PFAL to see how much we missed the first time(s), and to see how much we forgot or drifted from. I am convinced that 99% of all the woes reported here are due to us all NOT GETTING IT RIGHT the first times.
Now, on Feb 16, 2022 I am adding:
Yeah, and let me clarify that GETTING IT RIGHT means in it's fullness, AND with enough depth to withstand the onslaughts of the adversary to tear us away from the good we DID get partially right for a time."
"We did absorb SOME of what we were taught, and at times and wit some of us it worked VERY well. That's why proPFAL people are tenacious about the good, when they successfully resist focusing on sin and failures. That's why they are coming back."
===================
T-Bone, Feb 16, 2022.
"T-Bone’s reply to that:
Please be more specific. You can break it down point by point. What is the stuff that you think we missed, forgot, or drifted from the first time? Keep it simple. Let’s discuss one item at a time.
Also can you elaborate on EXACTLY what are the “99% of all the woes reported here are due to us all NOT GETTING IT RIGHT the first times.”
===========================
Mike, page 10, Feb 27, 2022.
"
I had posted much earlier:
On 5/6/2021 at 9:04 AM, Mike said:
I am convinced that 99% of all the woes reported here are due to us all NOT GETTING IT RIGHT the first times.
*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*
T-Bone, you ask about the woes that stand out TO WHOM the most?
I suggest you ask the same question of God, when He talks about these kinds of things. What kinds of multitudinous sins do you think God had in mind when He inspired Peter to write the following?
1 Peter 4:8 NIV
Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.
If we had gotten the LOVE part right, things would have gone better. How badly do you crave seeing a multitude of sins covered over with love? Do you think much on this verse, in this GreaseSpot atmosphere of exposing sins?"
"T-Bone, please let me know what you learn from all these verses, and about what specific kinds of woes we could have avoided, had we gotten down better the love part. "
===============================
Twinky, page 11, February 27, 2022.
"
Mike, I think T-Bone asked you a very specific question.
But based on your reply, I'll rephrase it a little.
In what way are 99% of people not loving? And how do you square that with people being a mixed bag, who can be very loving in one situation and (seemingly) a little less loving in another situation? Who got what wrong? Be specific."
=============================
Mike, page 11, Feb 27, 2022.
"Twinky, I answered T-Bone in a very specific way. And one that focuses on the love and not on what might need covered. In other words, I didn't fall for his bait."
==========================
T-Bone, page 11, Feb 27, 2022.
"
Hi Mike,
what are “the Woes” that standout the most?
what was/were the thing/things that people didn’t get right the first time?
here's your second chance "
---------------------------------------
Mike, page 11, Feb 27, 2022.
"All this focus on past sins is preventing your spiritual growth. If you are wondering why you are not a spiritual superman like Jesus, THIS is the reason: sin focus. "
=========================================================
So. what was Mike thinking of and trying not to say?
His claim is that "99%" of all the problems posted HERE (on the GSC) are because nobody's giving vpw a free pass on plagiarism, rape, simony, grand larceny, battery, menacing, and everything else I left out. If we want to see results on the same scale as The Lord Jesus Christ, we need to give vpw a free pass on all his crimes and the lives he ruined. If we don't stop posting about vpw's sins and crimes, then our spiritual growth will be STUNTED.
So, the "after" in this "before and after" is to get results on the same scale as Mike, who, having done that, must be demonstrating comparable results (i.e. Jesus Christ-class results.) Sadly, Mike has remained evasive all through the thread when asked about the results he's actually gotten, so we only have the INFERRED results.
Edited by WordWolfweird formatting
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WordWolf
In other words, Mike went on for pages, speaking in circumlocutions, refusing to get specific. What was it ALL about?
"Have you no shame…trying to protect that wascally weasel wierwille by finagling Scripture."
When it comes to trying to salvage the reputation of the plagiarizing rapist wierwille, Mike does NOT have any shame. He will finagle Scripture and anything else. By now, he's determined to go to the grave like this.
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WordWolf
The only thing Mike wants us to change is to stop exposing victor paul wierwille's capital crimes, and how he should have been caught and put in jail- but avoided that by setting up a BRILLIANT network of spies and cronies around himself to catch anyone ready to expose him- and destroy that person's reputation first. It's all about forgiveness- of wierwille's crimes and nothing else.
Once again, there's that convenient fiction that everybody at the GSC spends all their free time throwing darts at photos of vpw, and that they never seem to leave the house and do ANYTHING constructive. It's a convenient fiction for those looking to fog the issues and throw up smokescreens. It's also easy to spot.
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T-Bone
WordWolf,
that’s got to be one of the best summaries of Mike’s modus operandi by which crimes against logic, morality, social norms, and biblical hermeneutics are committed.
I can imagine this thread as a printed book titled
“The 2nd Wave of returning to PFAL has started...and Other Obfuscating Myths”
A compendium of the befuddling and self-righteous nonsense of a wierwille/PFAL fanatic with thoughtful analysis by other patrons of Grease Spot Café.
...and I think your summary should be prominently displayed on the dust cover jacket as a tease to whet the appetite of the curious reader…for now I have the next best thing – I constantly copy and paste each post on this thread into a Word doc – it’s currently at 114 pages – and I’ve been using a small font size of 10.5 to conserve space.
Edited by T-Bone2nd edit job has started
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T-Bone
Those tactics along with another typical response that goes along the lines of " we're-all-sinners-here-so-what-gives-you-the-right-to-judge" brings to mind several logical fallacies used to derail a thoughtful discussion and distract from the main points of a dialog:
1. An appeal to hypocrisy also known as tu quoqe (a Latin term for 'you too', meaning a counter-accusation). Focuses on the hypocrisy of an opponent. The tu quoque fallacy deflects criticism away from oneself by accusing the other person of the same problem or something comparable. The tu quoque fallacy is an attempt to divert blame. The fallacy usually occurs when the arguer uses apparent hypocrisy to neutralize criticism and distract from the issue. From: 15 logical fallacies and Wikipedia – Tu quoque
2. Whataboutism – from a logical and argumentative point of view it is considered a variant of the Tu-quoque pattern, which is a subtype of the Ad-hominem argument. Whataboutism or whataboutery (as in "what about…?") denotes in a pejorative sense a procedure in which a critical question or argument is not answered or discussed but retorted with a critical counter-question which expresses a counter-accusation. The communication intent here is often to distract from the content of a topic (red herring). The goal may also be to question the justification for criticism, the legitimacy, integrity, and fairness of the critic, which can take on the character of discrediting the criticism, which may or may not be justified. Common accusations include double standards, and hypocrisy. From Wiki - whataboutism
3. Ad-hominem - (Latin for 'to the person'), short for argumentum ad hominem (Latin for 'argument to the person'), refers to several types of arguments, some but not all of which are fallacious. Typically, this term refers to a rhetorical strategy where the speaker attacks the character, motive, or some other attribute of the person making an argument rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself. The most common form of ad hominem is "A makes a claim x, B asserts that A holds a property that is unwelcome, and hence B concludes that argument x is wrong". From Wiki - Ad hominem
Edited by T-Bonewhat about that editor
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