Yeah, and let me clarify that GETTING IT RIGHT means in it's fullness, AND with enough depth to withstand the onslaughts of the adversary to tear us away from the good we DID get partially right for a time.
. . .
Precisely.
Wait, what? . . . *googles fullness*
noun
noun:fullness;noun:fulness
1.
the state of being filled to capacity.
"scores of cans in different states of fullness"
the state of having eaten enough or more than enough and feeling full.
"the feeling of fullness you acquire from eating brown rice"
the state of being complete or whole.
"the honesty and fullness of the information they provide"
(in or alluding to biblical use) all that is contained in the world.
"God's green earth in all its fullness is for the people"
2.
(of a person's body or part of it) the state of being filled out so as to produce a rounded shape.
"the childish fullness of his cheeks"
(of a garment or the hair) the condition of having been cut or designed to give a full shape.
"hair was cut with a high crown and fullness"
richness or intensity of flavor, sound, or color.
"the coffee is of a luxurious fullness"
Fullness like a hand in a glove?
Then we are back to us versus them using Da Adversary. This is a simple form of thinking we all experience especially under pressure. Looking for simpler, happier times. Making the Reich Punny Also.
Sorry Bolshevik and T-Bone. I botched the buttons here, and meant to respond to this:
And then Bolshevic quoted me from an earlier post of mine here:
On 5/6/2021 at 9:04 AM, Mike said:
. .
From 2002-2008 I was an advocate here that we return to PFAL to see how much we missed the first time(s), and to see how much we forgot or drifted from. I am convinced that 99% of all the woes reported here are due to us all NOT GETTING IT RIGHT the first times.
Now, on Feb 16, 2022 I am adding:
Yeah, and let me clarify that GETTING IT RIGHT means in it's fullness, AND with enough depth to withstand the onslaughts of the adversary to tear us away from the good we DID get partially right for a time.
The ministry and people's lives all resembled marble cake: light spots and dark spots and all swirling about in time and geography. You can see the same thing in Acts.
Some of us started getting into the realm of doing all the things that Jesus Christ did and greater, and that threatened the adversary's grip on the world big-time.
We did absorb SOME of what we were taught, and at times and wit some of us it worked VERY well. That's why proPFAL people are tenacious about the good, when they successfully resist focusing on sin and failures. That's why they are coming back.
We did absorb SOME of what was taught, but lots of it was too much for us to absorb or use back then, AND some of it got lost in the shuffle of distractions.
But there are lots of happy grads coming back to PFAL now, and in lots of ways.
Hi Mike!
I’m laying this out in the hope that you’ll find it easier to quote one section at a time…maybe it will work out better if we converse in bite-sized pieces…so here goes…
Mike said:
From 2002-2008 I was an advocate here that we return to PFAL to see how much we missed the first time(s), and to see how much we forgot or drifted from. I am convinced that 99% of all the woes reported here are due to us all NOT GETTING IT RIGHT the first times.
T-Bone’s reply to that:
Please be more specific. You can break it down point by point. What is the stuff that you think we missed, forgot, or drifted from the first time? Keep it simple. Let’s discuss one item at a time.
Also can you elaborate on EXACTLY what are the “99% of all the woes reported here are due to us all NOT GETTING IT RIGHT the first times.”
~ ~ ~
Mike also said:
Now, on Feb 16, 2022 I am adding: Yeah, and let me clarify that GETTING IT RIGHT means in it's fullness, AND with enough depth to withstand the onslaughts of the adversary to tear us away from the good we DID get partially right for a time.
T-Bone’s reply to that:
In my opinion, it’s okay to be a PFAL-fan if it’s kept in perspective…but that’s just my opinion. if we look at the whole picture, seeing things in their proper relation/proportion to everything else in our lives – mentally stepping back from the thing or things we are concerned about so we can see other things too…
But in your case, there’s very little credibility that you’ve kept things in perspective – because your posts sound more like a hyped-up sales promotion for a product that most former customers here at Grease Spot KNOW is seriously defective and should have been recalled ages ago. When you make these claims about the wonderful benefits of PFAL – it hardly ever rings true – maybe because…and I’m just guessing here…your claims OFTEN sound like a nostalgic time capsule and/or a romanticized version of what you WISHED happened or HOPE can still happen.
By the way that boogeyman-fear-of-the-devil stuff doesn’t work on me anymore. That’s something wierwille did to keep us trapped inside his theological box. We didn’t need to fear what the adversary could steal from us since wierwille already stole our greatest asset – the ability to THINK and CHOOSE.
What I share on Grease Spot Café is about my TOTAL experience which is STILL UNFOLDING…so it’s about PFAL and BEYOND.
When I took PFAL back in 1974 – at the time, I thought it was the greatest thing in the world – cuz it SUPPOSEDLY (or I was led to believe that) got into how the Bible was written and how to interpret it. I still appreciate the class cuz it demystified the Bible for me – being raised Roman Catholic, I looked at a lot of the Bible as incomprehensible, ancient, and weird.
For as much as you hear me criticize wierwille and PFAL on Grease Spot that probably seems odd – but wierwille pointed me in a particular direction of developing a faith I grew up in...He got me started on the road to deep Bible study, checking out systematic theology and hermeneutics and even sparking an interest in philosophy of religion… BUT … when I left in ’86 – over disillusionments and disappointments that had been brewing for a long time – I had one of those differentiating but simple moments of clarity where I thought to myself “I can do better myself at personal Bible study and living the Christian lifestyle than what TWI tried show me.”
Mike, to put it to you bluntly – the way you refer to PFAL and often double down on some of its most dubious points leads me to think you view PFAL as THE gold standard - a model of excellence…a paragon, the supreme example of something against which any other theological stuff is judged or measured.
We need to be careful of who we admire and try to emulate – cuz of
Luke 6:40 NLT “Students are not greater than their teacher. But the student who is fully trained will become like the teacher.”
Speaking of teachers, as Christians we need to remember
I John 2:27 NIV “As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.”
FYI – click on the hyperlink of the above scripture references – you’ll see alternate translations of the verse !
To be perfectly frank with you, I am not a fan of PFAL or wierwille because of the way he tried to micromanage the development of my faith…basically during my time of TWI involvement wierwille usurped the teaching-role of The Holy Spirit in my life. If you want to deny that wierwille did that – fine – but realize your disclaimer means CA CA to ME. I have expressed a number of times on Grease Spot besides on this particular thread – how PFAL was considered the gold standard in the way corps…and wierwille and his flunkies micromanaged us to death – PFAL was held up as THE model of Biblical excellence…a paragon, the supreme example to hold our attempts at doing research, preaching, and teaching against… as a means of being judged…measured…evaluated in comparison to PFAL "PERFECTION".
Here's some other definitions of micromanage: “It means when one is employing or supervising another person, the manager provides such continuing, detailed direction as to what to do and how to do it, that it results in both a loss of efficiency and a lessening of job satisfaction for the person being managed.”
“A good manager/leader will tell their employees what to do but not necessarily how to do it, unless it requires detailed specific knowledge. When a manager tries to closely control and manage every aspect of an employee’s work, they are micromanaging them.”
Mike – I don’t know if you realize how phony your claims sound…it’s almost like you audited the PFAL class but never actually tried to apply it in real life situations to see if it actually worked. Whereas I committed to pursuing a "degree" in PFAL. What I figured out during my “education” in the 12-year extended curriculum of all Way-classes / way corps training and in life – is that most of it was nonsense…so impractical for me…BUT - to look on the dark side - it did allow TWI to suck a lot of money, effort, time, and creativity out of me.
FYI – on referencing wierwille’s works…I try to practice what I preach…I often refer to theological works that are non-TWI in origin – but I don’t admire them all out of proportion. Nobody is perfect. We all make mistakes, biases, lapses in logic, etc. But I do tend to trust a theological work when I find the author appears to be honest and logical and I can see their points jive with what I know is clearly and simply stated in the Bible. I have mentioned a number of reputable theological works on this thread – feel free to review my other posts at your convenience.
If you have any more questions like the one about plenary verbal inspiration or you’d care to challenge any works I used to support my criticism of PFAL – please quote the post – or form a simple question to challenge it – and let’s help make your thread something we can all learn from.
~ ~ ~ ~
Mike said:
The ministry and people's lives all resembled marble cake: light spots and dark spots and all swirling about in time and geography. You can see the same thing in Acts.
T-Bone’s reply to that: Chapter and verse please. What are you talking about? Your statement needs LOTS of clarification – besides the appropriate references from the book of Acts to support your points – whatever they are.
~ ~ ~
Mike said:
Some of us started getting into the realm of doing all the things that Jesus Christ did and greater, and that threatened the adversary's grip on the world big-time.
T-Bone’s reply to that:
Can you be more specific, please? Who are the “Some of us” and what were the “doing all the things that Jesus Christ did and greater” ?
~ ~ ~ ~
Mike said:
We did absorb SOME of what we were taught, and at times and wit some of us it worked VERY well.
T-Bone’s response to that:
Can you be more specific – who are the “WE did absorb SOME of what we were taught” ? and can you please be specific on “and wit(h) some of us it worked VERY well”.
~ ~ ~
Mike said:
That's why proPFAL people are tenacious about the good, when they successfully resist focusing on sin and failures. That's why they are coming back.
We did absorb SOME of what was taught, but lots of it was too much for us to absorb or use back then, AND some of it got lost in the shuffle of distractions.
But there are lots of happy grads coming back to PFAL now, and in lots of ways.
T-Bone’s reply to that:
you make another leap in logic by saying “That's why proPFAL people are tenacious about the good, when they successfully resist focusing on sin and failures.” Who are these “proPFAL people”? You make it sound like it’s more than JUST YOU…Is that what you want us to assume? And I hate to burst your bubble on feelings of success, but I think your scale of values is way off.
You stubbornly resist when someone challenges PFAL for its superficiality, insanity, flippancy, inaccuracies, interpolations, and twisting Scripture - - I mean… usually Grease Spotters have zero-chance of having a LOGICAL conversation with you over any errors in PFAL…You also stubbornly resist when Grease Spotters point out the sins and failures of wierwille – and for that stuff we’ve got evidence - documented – and witnessed by the person or people present – we’ve got evidence coming out the wazoo!
You seem to have the false assumption that denying or ignoring wierwille’s bad behavior will let wierwille’s erroneous doctrines shine.
Mike, it’s two different categories of faults. wierwille’s bad behavior was bad for other Christians – because it hurt them as sheep in the flock and it also elevated wierwille as an example to leadership-in-training, i.e., shepherds-in-training (the way corps program) on how to abuse and exploit sheep like a predatory wolf.
wierwille’s erroneous doctrines did not deserve to be loftily exalted to be equal to the authority of Scripture. That empowered him to be a powerful, harmful and controlling cult-leader! for all practical purposes - in the minds of many - wierwille took the place of the "absent Christ" - and that's the "genius" of brainwashing - - cult-followers did not realize that wierwille took the place of Christ's presence...authority...lordship... wierwille lorded it over our faith.
If you consider PFAL to be light – when it actually darkens a simple and clear understanding of the Scriptures – how great is that darkness! In the hierarchy of the power structure of TWI – from the top down – wierwille and the rest of TWI-leadership – it’s the blind leading the blind! see Matthew 6 - hey Bible fans here's another nifty study tool - click on the Matthew 6 link and you can change the translation with the pulldown box at the top right...enjoy!
That’s all for now
Edited by T-Bone My gold standard for editing is using a lead pipe
PFAL should only be a step in the journey of knowing God and knowing the Lord Jesus Christ, more fully. Not one of us can attain complete knowledge, so why should a mere stepping stone (just one) be the only thing? Stepping stones are meant to lead somewhere. There is sooooo much more to learn - from gospels to epistles and beyond - and from commentaries and research from appropriately qualified experts (of which wierwille was not one).
If someone dithers on a single stepping stone, eventually others who want to go further will either push the ditherer in, or he'll have to go back.
This?
Or this?
I like the way people are helping others along in this picture. But there does seem to be a ditherer at the back.
Yeah, sure. It's all our own fault. Could it have been the way we were dressed?
It's sadistic.
When "a grad" tries to follow all the "rules" and, predictably fails, "the leader" is getting pleasure from that futility.
When "a grad" realizes they are on a fools errand and speaks out, "the leader" gets a kick out of that, too. . . Cause there will be no remorse.
The slippery (pun filled) language is chaos for chaos sake. There is no desire to communicate anything of substance. Just generate something that looks like a conversation . . . For the sake of angst, frustration, suffering.
Hi Mike!
I’m laying this out in the hope that you’ll find it easier to quote one section at a time…maybe it will work out better if we converse in bite-sized pieces…so here goes…
T-Bone, what makes you think I have time to even READ all that, let alone respond to it?
You are like a survey that goes on too long, and deserves a control-alt-del.
You are like a nightmare High School teacher who thinks students go home in order to do hours worth of homework at a time.
Of all those reams of obvious traps you are setting for me, which ONE is the least trapiest, and the most conducive to ONE bite sized heartfelt conversation?
We're getting old and are going to die soon, so make it good.
Which one would help you find closure for your Way woes?
Or do you want closure? Would closure mean you would have to abandon your home here full of complainers and sin focus experts?
Is it worth the daily rush of negativity you get here.
If you can turn off the crap, we can talk.
Hit me with ONE heartfelt bite size item from that scroll of mostly junk, I am sure.
If your heart is rotten in this, I will spot it and ignore your response.
Oh, so negative thinking means a independent thinking. That's probably what was meant in the original.
Mike brought up death. Doesn't seem that is something a Pro-PFALer would be concerned about at all. It's just sleeping in their world. They've got infinite time in the prison of the renewed mind. No need to live this life when there's an escape clause, right?
T-Bone, what makes you think I have time to even READ all that, let alone respond to it?
You are like a survey that goes on too long, and deserves a control-alt-del.
You are like a nightmare High School teacher who thinks students go home in order to do hours worth of homework at a time.
Of all those reams of obvious traps you are setting for me, which ONE is the least trapiest, and the most conducive to ONE bite sized heartfelt conversation?
We're getting old and are going to die soon, so make it good.
Which one would help you find closure for your Way woes?
Or do you want closure? Would closure mean you would have to abandon your home here full of complainers and sin focus experts?
Is it worth the daily rush of negativity you get here.
If you can turn off the crap, we can talk.
Hit me with ONE heartfelt bite size item from that scroll of mostly junk, I am sure.
If your heart is rotten in this, I will spot it and ignore your response.
So clean up your heart and let's talk.
What makes me think you have time is that you brought up all the points he is addressing.
Now that you are being called out to answer each point instead of discipline and mental control you display laziness and attacking others.
Congrats, you are more like your “father in the Word” than you realize.
Twinky, thanks for that encouraging post! Great stimulus for reflection!
Especially the 2nd picture of 6 people carefully working their way across the steppingstones…I love the idea of helping others on our journey…sometimes I’m the ditherer…sometimes I take huge strides when I’m confident…sometimes I’m like a child and need a helping hand from someone more experienced.
So I was playing around with this idea that each person in the picture represents different phases of my journey…or maybe different cycles of my intellectual and emotional journey – repeated - maybe in more or less the same order – the different stages of a growth process…
….so, in your group shot of people walking across the steppingstones…from left to right:
1. the ditherer – I’m indecisive…when I’m unsettled about something I have to remember to cut myself some slack…do some deep reflection…in TWI I was taught indecisiveness, sitting on the fence, inaction was bad…In TWI I was encouraged…nay I was PRODDED to jump on anything TWI said I should be doing – and their prompts…motivational techniques…manipulations tended to squelch my cognitive skills and intuition. What I thought or felt was unimportant…but NOW – being a ditherer isn’t so bad as long as I’m actually using my cognitive skills and intuition to determine my next move...and maybe my next move is just hitting "the dither button" for a little while longer...I mean what's the rush? If your house is on fire - okay quit dithering and get the hell out! Otherwise – if it’s not time-sensitive - then give it the appropriate think-and-feel-time – sleep on it. go over your personal preferences, long-range goals, etc. …here’s an example of what NOT to do: When I got off the WOW field, I debated going back to school and finish getting a degree in fine arts. But I let myself get caught up in TWI’s priorities – starting a Twig in this college town. In my mental debate - I had this vague notion I was being selfish for thinking about what I wanted to do.
2. childlike faith – I made it a little farther by thinking some things through. I mulled everything over as “the ditherer” …now I’m relishing my success thus far - taking stock of where I am now…processing…processing…
3. confident – taking bigger steps – I can do this! Confidence comes from accomplishments. Looking back – I see I’ve traversed 6 rocks and going on the 7th…I’m getting somewhere – hooray!
4. Old hand – alright – so now I’ve got a lot of experience using these steppingstones...I sort of know what I'm doing.
5. Humility – think young! you're never too old to learn...Drop the pride from lots of experiences and let others help you if you need help – I have an expanded idea of the Psalm that says God fills my life with good things – I believe that includes good people too … Psalm 103:5 NLT He fills my life with good things. My youth is renewed like the eagle’s!
6. Help others – it’s the 2nd greatest priority for Christians- Mark 12:31 NLT “The second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ No other commandment is greater than these.”
Edited by T-Bone A dictionary and a thesaurus are only two of the many steppingstones to the final edit
One of the Mathew 6 private translations was "Let them eat Marbled Cake". Looks wavy, any way you slice it. Is this how you get fullness, Right?
I am convinced that 99% of all the baker’s woes reported here are due to the bakers NOT GETTING IT RIGHT their very first time in the kitchen.
All the pro-Marbled Cake bakers swear by Dr. Marie Antoinette’s Flour For Abundant Fullness class (or FFAF for 'shortening' )…for just a “petite” required donation of 87.97 Euros anyone can take the class. Supposedly that’s how she made all her dough…By session twelve all new students experience one hell of a sugar-crash and are drained of energy and say dumb things like “Let them eat Marbled Cake.” Any new students who fail to do so are shot and then asked to leave the country.
I vaguely remember something in the news about a live class on cakes that fell (apart) in the middle ( of the class)…uhm yes...now I remember...while she was doing a live FFAF'77, she lost her composure and acted very emotional and irrational – the newspapers ran a headline Dr. Marie Antoinette Loses Her Head …a lot of bad press…a lot of very bad press…But there are lots and lots and lots and lots of happy FFAF grads bringing back FFAF in lots of plagiaristic and old switcheroo ways.
One FFAF grad, named Little Debbie -now an ordained baker from Doc Marie’s Wavy Gravy Program – and yes - the baker-ship training program was named after THE Wavy Gravy who was part of the Woodstock Movement and believed in free flour for everyone – he is noted for the miraculous feeding of the 400,000 with breakfast cakes while still in bed…just to be clear, Wavy was the one still in bed – he had his Lesser Wavy Gravies (wavy-gravies-in-training )do the feeding of the 400,000 …culinary historians believe that was probably the golden opportunity for Dr. Marie Antoinette to sneak into his motorcoach and hijack-flap-jack-knick-knack-paddy-whack Wavy Gravy’s recipe book that was covered in orange peels, because he always left it on the night stand. And Wavy Gravy was always dead to the world after having a lot of Rum or Drambuie Cakes the night before…and it was daytime …and there was flour on the gas stove…
Are you still awake….. zzzzZZZZ ZZZzzzz …well okay …you can catch up later…
Rev. Little Debbie started an offshoot (which began as a bake-off) when she GOT IT RIGHT - in its fullness, AND with enough depth of calories to withstand the onslaught of dieticians and lawyers for the estate of FFAF.
many loyal FFAF-fans marked and avoided Rev Deb – labeling her “the adversary” who would tear FFAF-fans away from their “mother in The Flour” or just "Mother Flour"…most Easy-Bake Oven scholars believe that’s what inspired Rev. Little Debbie to call her FFAF knockoff cakes “Devil Squares”...
The oddest thing...Devil Squares looked nothing like - nor tasted nothing like Doc Marie's Marbled Cakes - but for some reason old diehard FFAF-fans called Rev Lil' Deb's cakes The Challenging Counterfeit.
You need more sleep, T-Bone. And to stop eating those "special" brownies.
20 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:
There's an idea . Maybe heavy whipping cream? Sometimes I just use yogurt.
Don’t be ridiculous, Twinky…I’ve been reviewing…and I mean reviewing…again and again the Leviathan posts and having a few Irish Coffees…mmmm how many?...lost count…maybe I should review the Math posts, huh…Bolshevik has the right idea though – so I’m sticking with my Irish Coffee regimen and adding some heavy Cream too
We may have some common ground there…my wife follows football more than I do…I do enjoy the super bowl commercials…I like Multi-Grain Cheerios the best…but the past few years I’ve had some bouts of diverticulitis and so I usually choose cereals with higher fiber content like Grape-Nuts, Grain Berry, Raisin Bran…in an old search I found one cereal that really hypes the fiber content by its name Poop Like A Champion Healthy Choice Ultra High Fiber Cereal …haven’t seen it in local stores…so I think I’m gonna order some from Amazon soon
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Twinky
Hello Mike. I've kinda missed you round here. Could always rely on you to make a point that would stir up Cafe denizens. Was wondering what had happened to you. You went away to study PFAL more de
Raf
Am I the only one who thinks Bullinger's Figures of Speech sound a WHOLE LOT like Harry Potter spells? Condescensio! Hypocatastasis! Asyndeton! Polysyndeton! Expecto-Runaroundem!
cman
So the idea is that if specific things come together than things happen. And these things that contribute to the outcome, and the outcome itself, are, or can be known. Some kind of scientific or philo
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Bolshevik
Precisely.
Wait, what? . . . *googles fullness*
Fullness like a hand in a glove?
Then we are back to us versus them using Da Adversary. This is a simple form of thinking we all experience especially under pressure. Looking for simpler, happier times. Making the Reich Punny Also.
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Bolshevik
In the fullness of lunchtime, I'm pondering whether one can have their marbles and lose them too?
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T-Bone
Hi Mike!
I’m laying this out in the hope that you’ll find it easier to quote one section at a time…maybe it will work out better if we converse in bite-sized pieces…so here goes…
Mike said:
From 2002-2008 I was an advocate here that we return to PFAL to see how much we missed the first time(s), and to see how much we forgot or drifted from. I am convinced that 99% of all the woes reported here are due to us all NOT GETTING IT RIGHT the first times.
T-Bone’s reply to that:
Please be more specific. You can break it down point by point. What is the stuff that you think we missed, forgot, or drifted from the first time? Keep it simple. Let’s discuss one item at a time.
Also can you elaborate on EXACTLY what are the “99% of all the woes reported here are due to us all NOT GETTING IT RIGHT the first times.”
~ ~ ~
Mike also said:
Now, on Feb 16, 2022 I am adding: Yeah, and let me clarify that GETTING IT RIGHT means in it's fullness, AND with enough depth to withstand the onslaughts of the adversary to tear us away from the good we DID get partially right for a time.
T-Bone’s reply to that:
In my opinion, it’s okay to be a PFAL-fan if it’s kept in perspective…but that’s just my opinion. if we look at the whole picture, seeing things in their proper relation/proportion to everything else in our lives – mentally stepping back from the thing or things we are concerned about so we can see other things too…
But in your case, there’s very little credibility that you’ve kept things in perspective – because your posts sound more like a hyped-up sales promotion for a product that most former customers here at Grease Spot KNOW is seriously defective and should have been recalled ages ago. When you make these claims about the wonderful benefits of PFAL – it hardly ever rings true – maybe because…and I’m just guessing here…your claims OFTEN sound like a nostalgic time capsule and/or a romanticized version of what you WISHED happened or HOPE can still happen.
By the way that boogeyman-fear-of-the-devil stuff doesn’t work on me anymore. That’s something wierwille did to keep us trapped inside his theological box. We didn’t need to fear what the adversary could steal from us since wierwille already stole our greatest asset – the ability to THINK and CHOOSE.
What I share on Grease Spot Café is about my TOTAL experience which is STILL UNFOLDING…so it’s about PFAL and BEYOND.
When I took PFAL back in 1974 – at the time, I thought it was the greatest thing in the world – cuz it SUPPOSEDLY (or I was led to believe that) got into how the Bible was written and how to interpret it. I still appreciate the class cuz it demystified the Bible for me – being raised Roman Catholic, I looked at a lot of the Bible as incomprehensible, ancient, and weird.
For as much as you hear me criticize wierwille and PFAL on Grease Spot that probably seems odd – but wierwille pointed me in a particular direction of developing a faith I grew up in...He got me started on the road to deep Bible study, checking out systematic theology and hermeneutics and even sparking an interest in philosophy of religion… BUT … when I left in ’86 – over disillusionments and disappointments that had been brewing for a long time – I had one of those differentiating but simple moments of clarity where I thought to myself “I can do better myself at personal Bible study and living the Christian lifestyle than what TWI tried show me.”
Mike, to put it to you bluntly – the way you refer to PFAL and often double down on some of its most dubious points leads me to think you view PFAL as THE gold standard - a model of excellence…a paragon, the supreme example of something against which any other theological stuff is judged or measured.
We need to be careful of who we admire and try to emulate – cuz of
Luke 6:40 NLT
“Students are not greater than their teacher. But the student who is fully trained will become like the teacher.”
Speaking of teachers, as Christians we need to remember
I John 2:27 NIV
“As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.”
FYI – click on the hyperlink of the above scripture references – you’ll see alternate translations of the verse !
To be perfectly frank with you, I am not a fan of PFAL or wierwille because of the way he tried to micromanage the development of my faith…basically during my time of TWI involvement wierwille usurped the teaching-role of The Holy Spirit in my life. If you want to deny that wierwille did that – fine – but realize your disclaimer means CA CA to ME. I have expressed a number of times on Grease Spot besides on this particular thread – how PFAL was considered the gold standard in the way corps…and wierwille and his flunkies micromanaged us to death – PFAL was held up as THE model of Biblical excellence…a paragon, the supreme example to hold our attempts at doing research, preaching, and teaching against… as a means of being judged…measured…evaluated in comparison to PFAL "PERFECTION".
Here's some other definitions of micromanage:
“It means when one is employing or supervising another person, the manager provides such continuing, detailed direction as to what to do and how to do it, that it results in both a loss of efficiency and a lessening of job satisfaction for the person being managed.”
“A good manager/leader will tell their employees what to do but not necessarily how to do it, unless it requires detailed specific knowledge. When a manager tries to closely control and manage every aspect of an employee’s work, they are micromanaging them.”
From: Quora - what does it mean to micromanage
Mike – I don’t know if you realize how phony your claims sound…it’s almost like you audited the PFAL class but never actually tried to apply it in real life situations to see if it actually worked. Whereas I committed to pursuing a "degree" in PFAL. What I figured out during my “education” in the 12-year extended curriculum of all Way-classes / way corps training and in life – is that most of it was nonsense…so impractical for me…BUT - to look on the dark side - it did allow TWI to suck a lot of money, effort, time, and creativity out of me.
FYI – on referencing wierwille’s works…I try to practice what I preach…I often refer to theological works that are non-TWI in origin – but I don’t admire them all out of proportion. Nobody is perfect. We all make mistakes, biases, lapses in logic, etc. But I do tend to trust a theological work when I find the author appears to be honest and logical and I can see their points jive with what I know is clearly and simply stated in the Bible. I have mentioned a number of reputable theological works on this thread – feel free to review my other posts at your convenience.
If you have any more questions like the one about plenary verbal inspiration or you’d care to challenge any works I used to support my criticism of PFAL – please quote the post – or form a simple question to challenge it – and let’s help make your thread something we can all learn from.
~ ~ ~ ~
Mike said:
The ministry and people's lives all resembled marble cake: light spots and dark spots and all swirling about in time and geography. You can see the same thing in Acts.
T-Bone’s reply to that:
Chapter and verse please. What are you talking about? Your statement needs LOTS of clarification – besides the appropriate references from the book of Acts to support your points – whatever they are.
~ ~ ~
Mike said:
Some of us started getting into the realm of doing all the things that Jesus Christ did and greater, and that threatened the adversary's grip on the world big-time.
T-Bone’s reply to that:
Can you be more specific, please? Who are the “Some of us” and what were the “doing all the things that Jesus Christ did and greater” ?
~ ~ ~ ~
Mike said:
We did absorb SOME of what we were taught, and at times and wit some of us it worked VERY well.
T-Bone’s response to that:
Can you be more specific – who are the “WE did absorb SOME of what we were taught” ? and can you please be specific on “and wit(h) some of us it worked VERY well”.
~ ~ ~
Mike said:
That's why proPFAL people are tenacious about the good, when they successfully resist focusing on sin and failures. That's why they are coming back.
We did absorb SOME of what was taught, but lots of it was too much for us to absorb or use back then, AND some of it got lost in the shuffle of distractions.
But there are lots of happy grads coming back to PFAL now, and in lots of ways.
T-Bone’s reply to that:
you make another leap in logic by saying “That's why proPFAL people are tenacious about the good, when they successfully resist focusing on sin and failures.” Who are these “proPFAL people”? You make it sound like it’s more than JUST YOU…Is that what you want us to assume? And I hate to burst your bubble on feelings of success, but I think your scale of values is way off.
You stubbornly resist when someone challenges PFAL for its superficiality, insanity, flippancy, inaccuracies, interpolations, and twisting Scripture - - I mean… usually Grease Spotters have zero-chance of having a LOGICAL conversation with you over any errors in PFAL…You also stubbornly resist when Grease Spotters point out the sins and failures of wierwille – and for that stuff we’ve got evidence - documented – and witnessed by the person or people present – we’ve got evidence coming out the wazoo!
You seem to have the false assumption that denying or ignoring wierwille’s bad behavior will let wierwille’s erroneous doctrines shine.
Mike, it’s two different categories of faults. wierwille’s bad behavior was bad for other Christians – because it hurt them as sheep in the flock and it also elevated wierwille as an example to leadership-in-training, i.e., shepherds-in-training (the way corps program) on how to abuse and exploit sheep like a predatory wolf.
wierwille’s erroneous doctrines did not deserve to be loftily exalted to be equal to the authority of Scripture. That empowered him to be a powerful, harmful and controlling cult-leader! for all practical purposes - in the minds of many - wierwille took the place of the "absent Christ" - and that's the "genius" of brainwashing - - cult-followers did not realize that wierwille took the place of Christ's presence...authority...lordship... wierwille lorded it over our faith.
If you consider PFAL to be light – when it actually darkens a simple and clear understanding of the Scriptures – how great is that darkness! In the hierarchy of the power structure of TWI – from the top down – wierwille and the rest of TWI-leadership – it’s the blind leading the blind! see Matthew 6 - hey Bible fans here's another nifty study tool - click on the Matthew 6 link and you can change the translation with the pulldown box at the top right...enjoy!
That’s all for now
Edited by T-BoneMy gold standard for editing is using a lead pipe
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Twinky
PFAL should only be a step in the journey of knowing God and knowing the Lord Jesus Christ, more fully. Not one of us can attain complete knowledge, so why should a mere stepping stone (just one) be the only thing? Stepping stones are meant to lead somewhere. There is sooooo much more to learn - from gospels to epistles and beyond - and from commentaries and research from appropriately qualified experts (of which wierwille was not one).
If someone dithers on a single stepping stone, eventually others who want to go further will either push the ditherer in, or he'll have to go back.
This?
Or this?
I like the way people are helping others along in this picture. But there does seem to be a ditherer at the back.
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waysider
Yeah, sure. It's all our own fault. Could it have been the way we were dressed?
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Bolshevik
It's sadistic.
When "a grad" tries to follow all the "rules" and, predictably fails, "the leader" is getting pleasure from that futility.
When "a grad" realizes they are on a fools errand and speaks out, "the leader" gets a kick out of that, too. . . Cause there will be no remorse.
The slippery (pun filled) language is chaos for chaos sake. There is no desire to communicate anything of substance. Just generate something that looks like a conversation . . . For the sake of angst, frustration, suffering.
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Mike
T-Bone, what makes you think I have time to even READ all that, let alone respond to it?
You are like a survey that goes on too long, and deserves a control-alt-del.
You are like a nightmare High School teacher who thinks students go home in order to do hours worth of homework at a time.
Edited by MikeOf all those reams of obvious traps you are setting for me, which ONE is the least trapiest, and the most conducive to ONE bite sized heartfelt conversation?
We're getting old and are going to die soon, so make it good.
Which one would help you find closure for your Way woes?
Or do you want closure? Would closure mean you would have to abandon your home here full of complainers and sin focus experts?
Is it worth the daily rush of negativity you get here.
If you can turn off the crap, we can talk.
Hit me with ONE heartfelt bite size item from that scroll of mostly junk, I am sure.
If your heart is rotten in this, I will spot it and ignore your response.
So clean up your heart and let's talk.
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Rocky
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T-Bone
Who were you rooting for in the super bowl?
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Bolshevik
Oh, so negative thinking means a independent thinking. That's probably what was meant in the original.
Mike brought up death. Doesn't seem that is something a Pro-PFALer would be concerned about at all. It's just sleeping in their world. They've got infinite time in the prison of the renewed mind. No need to live this life when there's an escape clause, right?
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waysider
Talking to yourself again, Mike?
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chockfull
What makes me think you have time is that you brought up all the points he is addressing.
Now that you are being called out to answer each point instead of discipline and mental control you display laziness and attacking others.
Congrats, you are more like your “father in the Word” than you realize.
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T-Bone
Twinky, thanks for that encouraging post! Great stimulus for reflection!
Especially the 2nd picture of 6 people carefully working their way across the steppingstones…I love the idea of helping others on our journey…sometimes I’m the ditherer…sometimes I take huge strides when I’m confident…sometimes I’m like a child and need a helping hand from someone more experienced.
So I was playing around with this idea that each person in the picture represents different phases of my journey…or maybe different cycles of my intellectual and emotional journey – repeated - maybe in more or less the same order – the different stages of a growth process…
….so, in your group shot of people walking across the steppingstones…from left to right:
1. the ditherer – I’m indecisive…when I’m unsettled about something I have to remember to cut myself some slack…do some deep reflection…in TWI I was taught indecisiveness, sitting on the fence, inaction was bad…In TWI I was encouraged…nay I was PRODDED to jump on anything TWI said I should be doing – and their prompts…motivational techniques…manipulations tended to squelch my cognitive skills and intuition. What I thought or felt was unimportant…but NOW – being a ditherer isn’t so bad as long as I’m actually using my cognitive skills and intuition to determine my next move...and maybe my next move is just hitting "the dither button" for a little while longer...I mean what's the rush? If your house is on fire - okay quit dithering and get the hell out! Otherwise – if it’s not time-sensitive - then give it the appropriate think-and-feel-time – sleep on it. go over your personal preferences, long-range goals, etc. …here’s an example of what NOT to do: When I got off the WOW field, I debated going back to school and finish getting a degree in fine arts. But I let myself get caught up in TWI’s priorities – starting a Twig in this college town. In my mental debate - I had this vague notion I was being selfish for thinking about what I wanted to do.
2. childlike faith – I made it a little farther by thinking some things through. I mulled everything over as “the ditherer” …now I’m relishing my success thus far - taking stock of where I am now…processing…processing…
3. confident – taking bigger steps – I can do this! Confidence comes from accomplishments. Looking back – I see I’ve traversed 6 rocks and going on the 7th…I’m getting somewhere – hooray!
4. Old hand – alright – so now I’ve got a lot of experience using these steppingstones...I sort of know what I'm doing.
5. Humility – think young! you're never too old to learn...Drop the pride from lots of experiences and let others help you if you need help – I have an expanded idea of the Psalm that says God fills my life with good things – I believe that includes good people too … Psalm 103:5 NLT He fills my life with good things. My youth is renewed like the eagle’s!
Edited by T-Bone6. Help others – it’s the 2nd greatest priority for Christians - Mark 12:31 NLT “The second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ No other commandment is greater than these.”
A dictionary and a thesaurus are only two of the many steppingstones to the final edit
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Bolshevik
One of the Mathew 6 private translations was "Let them eat Marbled Cake". Looks wavy, any way you slice it. Is this how you get fullness, Right?
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Mike
Edited by MikeThe only super bowl I care about is Cheerios.
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Bolshevik
Honey Nut and not that plain stuff. Pour in milk rapidly so it spills a bit. It's an act of libation.
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Mike
...and use Half n Half instead of milk!
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T-Bone
I am convinced that 99% of all the baker’s woes reported here are due to the bakers NOT GETTING IT RIGHT their very first time in the kitchen.
All the pro-Marbled Cake bakers swear by Dr. Marie Antoinette’s Flour For Abundant Fullness class (or FFAF for 'shortening'
)…for just a “petite” required donation of 87.97 Euros anyone can take the class. Supposedly that’s how she made all her dough…By session twelve all new students experience one hell of a sugar-crash and are drained of energy and say dumb things like “Let them eat Marbled Cake.” Any new students who fail to do so are shot and then asked to leave the country.
I vaguely remember something in the news about a live class on cakes that fell (apart) in the middle ( of the class)…uhm yes...now I remember...while she was doing a live FFAF '77, she lost her composure and acted very emotional and irrational – the newspapers ran a headline Dr. Marie Antoinette Loses Her Head …a lot of bad press…a lot of very bad press…But there are lots and lots and lots and lots of happy FFAF grads bringing back FFAF in lots of plagiaristic and old switcheroo ways.
One FFAF grad, named Little Debbie -now an ordained baker from Doc Marie’s Wavy Gravy Program – and yes - the baker-ship training program was named after THE Wavy Gravy who was part of the Woodstock Movement and believed in free flour for everyone – he is noted for the miraculous feeding of the 400,000 with breakfast cakes while still in bed…just to be clear, Wavy was the one still in bed – he had his Lesser Wavy Gravies (wavy-gravies-in-training )do the feeding of the 400,000 …culinary historians believe that was probably the golden opportunity for Dr. Marie Antoinette to sneak into his motorcoach and hijack-flap-jack-knick-knack-paddy-whack Wavy Gravy’s recipe book that was covered in orange peels, because he always left it on the night stand. And Wavy Gravy was always dead to the world after having a lot of Rum or Drambuie Cakes the night before…and it was daytime …and there was flour on the gas stove…
Are you still awake….. zzzzZZZZ
ZZZzzzz …well okay …you can catch up later…
Rev. Little Debbie started an offshoot (which began as a bake-off) when she GOT IT RIGHT - in its fullness, AND with enough depth of calories to withstand the onslaught of dieticians and lawyers for the estate of FFAF.
many loyal FFAF-fans marked and avoided Rev Deb – labeling her “the adversary” who would tear FFAF-fans away from their “mother in The Flour” or just "Mother Flour"…most Easy-Bake Oven scholars believe that’s what inspired Rev. Little Debbie to call her FFAF knockoff cakes “Devil Squares”...
The oddest thing...Devil Squares looked nothing like - nor tasted nothing like Doc Marie's Marbled Cakes - but for some reason old diehard FFAF-fans called Rev Lil' Deb's cakes The Challenging Counterfeit.
Edited by T-BoneFlour to the people right on!
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Twinky
You need more sleep, T-Bone. And to stop eating those "special" brownies.
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Bolshevik
T-Bone brought up The Challenging Counterfeit
. A book about how you're overspiritualizing wrong. . . .
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Bolshevik
There's an idea
. Maybe heavy whipping cream? Sometimes I just use yogurt.
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T-Bone
Don’t be ridiculous, Twinky…I’ve been reviewing…and I mean reviewing…again and again the Leviathan posts and having a few Irish Coffees…mmmm how many?...lost count…maybe I should review the Math posts, huh…Bolshevik has the right idea though – so I’m sticking with my Irish Coffee regimen and adding some heavy Cream too
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T-Bone
We may have some common ground there…my wife follows football more than I do…I do enjoy the super bowl commercials…I like Multi-Grain Cheerios the best…but the past few years I’ve had some bouts of diverticulitis and so I usually choose cereals with higher fiber content like Grape-Nuts, Grain Berry, Raisin Bran…in an old search I found one cereal that really hypes the fiber content by its name Poop Like A Champion Healthy Choice Ultra High Fiber Cereal …haven’t seen it in local stores…so I think I’m gonna order some from Amazon soon
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Bolshevik
Colossians 3:12 - referring to an emotional experience of said diet
Dueteronomy 23:13 - . . . Did you think the fun would last?
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