Soy Francisco tengo 32 años y desde que tengo memoria mi familia participa en twi, yo abandoné esta secta hace unos 7 años mas menos cuando me topé con la página de John Juedes, con quien también he podido hablar por teléfono y quien me dirigió a un Centro de Investigaciones Religiosas.
Desde ese entonces he estado investigando, comprando algunos libros y aprendiendo de twi y del desastre teológico y abusos cometidos por el alto mando.
Mi pregunta es la siguiente
Como puedo ayudar a que mi familia abandone esta secta?, llevan casi 40 años envueltos en esto, obviamente desconocen que es lo que ocurrió con LCM y las demandas, o el plagio de VPW, mi intención es poder sacarlos del culto. Alguna idea de como empezar?
It sounds to me like you’ve really done your homework, and now hopefully you can boil all that down to bite-size digestible nuggets of truth and facts. If you can manage English (with or without the help of a translator) you might find useful some threads on Grease Spot for historical, timeline or topic-specific references – to help organize your thoughts and prepare you to help your family.
Recently another newcomer to Grease Spot talked about a similar concern – dating someone who is involved in TWI. One of Grease Spot’s “old timers” (WordWolf) replied to them saying you can’t really understand TWI without trying to understand the founder and its first president victor paul wierwille. Below I have provided a few links to WordWolf’s posts – which in themselves have a bunch more links for you to peruse. I think he does a great job of chronicling all things TWI.
I was involved in The Way International for some 12 years – I left the cult in 1986. I went through their missionary program (W.O.W.) and their leadership training program (the way corps). My reasons for leaving are many – and it all was on a “slow simmer” for several years while I was in – but it boiled over in 1986 – all my questions and doubts came to a head. That was when the founding president (wierwille) passed away and the power-struggles of some upper leadership ensued – which made me reevaluate what they taught me and got me to look more into their true nature from a variety of perspectives – which sounds like what you did (checking out books and John Juedes) kudos to you my friend.
From my own experience I’ve found that helping someone else escape a rabbit hole will involve a lot of patience, understanding, empathy, honesty and respect on your part (as one who has already escaped the rabbit hole). I believe it’s important to promote critical thinking. I am still a Christian even after leaving TWI…and sometimes on Grease Spot I like to express the idea that TWI is essentially parasitic – relying on exploiting others – whether it’s plagiarism, twisting Scripture to suit their own agenda and moral depravity or taking advantage of followers in so many ways. Even at its most basic level, TWI is indeed a parasite of lies that NEEDS some truth in order to survive. Check out Jesus Christ exercising critical thinking in Luke 4 to counter the devil’s twisted use of Scripture. We often can help others escape TWI when we point out some obvious difference between a truth and a lie…some obvious difference between some fact and TWI’s fictionalized version of it.
Rather than throw everything all at once at your family – take some time to analyze your own journey out of TWI. What stuff, teachings or experiences caused you to question or doubt? Bottom line is that you really can’t force anyone to see through the religious façade of TWI. But you can point out some chinks in their supposed armor of credibility – like going over the plagiarism or fabrications and embellishments of events (using the details from threads listed below) – hopefully that will lodge some questions and doubts in their minds – which may act like an electrical charge to stimulate the atrophied critical thinking "muscles"…People base their beliefs on what they think is a trusted source. Your task is to offer reasons why TWI should NOT be trusted.
Good luck Francisco - you asked some great questions – and welcome to Grease Spot
Love & peace
T-Bone
== == == ==
These links below may help you investigate further (the links below are to posts that have a bunch more links); also take advantage of the search engine in the top right section of the webpage – just type in a topic and get familiar with how this website is laid out.
Sorry I don’t speak your language…btw, I really enjoyed watching Toy Story 3 with my daughter the other day. There’s one scene where they press a factory reset button for too long on the back of Buzz Lightyear and he started talking in Spanish – and fortunately for me the movie had subtitles when he talked – I loved it! They even had the Toy Story theme song “You’ve Got A Friend in Me” in Spanish at the end of the movie.
Here is the original post as Translated by Google since I do not know who here might be fluent enough in Spanish.
Hello everyone I am Francisco I am 32 years old and since I can remember my family participates in Twi, I left this sect about 7 years ago less when I came across the page of John Juedes, with whom I have also been able to speak by phone and who directed me to a Religious Research Center.
Since then I have been researching, buying some books and learning about Twi and the theological disaster and abuses committed by the high command.
My question is this:
How can I help my family to leave this sect? They have been involved in this for almost 40 years, obviously they do not know what happened with LCM and the lawsuits, or the plagiarism of VPW, my intention is to get them out of the cult. Any idea how to start?
If your family has been in TWI for almost 40 years, they lived thtough all the lawsuits with LCM, and the plagiarism of VPW. LCM has only been gone for 20 years or so, and they have had ample time to evaluate all that has been going on. What is your relationship with your family? What do they think about you leaving TWI? How do you correspond with them? Do you get together with them physically?
i wouldn’t rush into trying to enlighten them about all you know. Talk to them and see if there are small things they maybe questioning about TWI? This might be a way to introduce light into the situation.
Welcome to the cafe. There plenty of people here willing to help you out.
I would be happy to help you- by directing you to more information, and by answering questions and things like that. Before I start that whole process, I think it's important to know how good your English is. Are you able to read pages of English text without a translator? Are you only able to read them with Google Translate or something similar? I can give you much more help in English than I can in Spanish. Feel free to contact me privately with a "private message" ("pm"). (You can click on my name, then on the "message" button on my information page to do that.)
Just in case none of that was understood.....
Buenas noches, Señor Orostegui.
Puedo ayudarle alegremente. Puedo dirigirle a más información, y puedo responder preguntas y otras cosas. Ante todo, yo creo que es importante saber su nivel de Ingles. Puede leer paginas de texto en Ingles sin un traductor? Puede leer Ingles solamente con la ayuda de un programa como Google Translate? Puedo ayudarle más facilmente y con más informacion en Ingles que en Español (o castellano). Puede contactarme privadamente con un "mensaje privado" ("pm") cuando quiera. (Haga un "clic" sobre mi nombre, y luego un clic en "message" en la pagina con mi informacion.)
If your family has been in TWI for almost 40 years, they lived thtough all the lawsuits with LCM, and the plagiarism of VPW. LCM has only been gone for 20 years or so, and they have had ample time to evaluate all that has been going on. What is your relationship with your family? What do they think about you leaving TWI? How do you correspond with them? Do you get together with them physically?
i wouldn’t rush into trying to enlighten them about all you know. Talk to them and see if there are small things they maybe questioning about TWI? This might be a way to introduce light into the situation.
Welcome to the cafe. There plenty of people here willing to help you out.
Hello, that they have been 40 years old is a way of saying, they were disconnected from twi from 96-97 until 2012, since there was a problem with the representative of the Country (I think the guy stole some land and money), And as a result of this, many people left for Twi in Chile, but my parents and uncles kept the Twi style, making twigs, that's why they don't know about lcm, they learned something about Chriss Gere's letter, but nothing in detail, the Senior Twi commanders in my country hid a lot of information, so my relatives do not know all these things, nor about the cases of abuse of lcm.
Then in 2012, unfortunately it was me who contacted the Twi people in my country again (believing that I was bringing my family closer to God again), since my parents do not understand they do not have much contact with technology or the internet. As an adult I managed to take the Fundamental Class, when then I started researching vpw and its teachings and came across this whole iceberg of things.
I would be happy to help you- by directing you to more information, and by answering questions and things like that. Before I start that whole process, I think it's important to know how good your English is. Are you able to read pages of English text without a translator? Are you only able to read them with Google Translate or something similar? I can give you much more help in English than I can in Spanish. Feel free to contact me privately with a "private message" ("pm"). (You can click on my name, then on the "message" button on my information page to do that.)
Just in case none of that was understood.....
Buenas noches, Señor Orostegui.
Puedo ayudarle alegremente. Puedo dirigirle a más información, y puedo responder preguntas y otras cosas. Ante todo, yo creo que es importante saber su nivel de Ingles. Puede leer paginas de texto en Ingles sin un traductor? Puede leer Ingles solamente con la ayuda de un programa como Google Translate? Puedo ayudarle más facilmente y con más informacion en Ingles que en Español (o castellano). Puede contactarme privadamente con un "mensaje privado" ("pm") cuando quiera. (Haga un "clic" sobre mi nombre, y luego un clic en "message" en la pagina con mi informacion.)
Hola WordWolf, My level of English is not very advanced but I can read and understand (sometimes I help myself with the translator and I am able to distinguish when the translator changes the meaning of the sentences) I greatly appreciate your help with this.
Soy Francisco tengo 32 años y desde que tengo memoria mi familia participa en twi, yo abandoné esta secta hace unos 7 años mas menos cuando me topé con la página de John Juedes, con quien también he podido hablar por teléfono y quien me dirigió a un Centro de Investigaciones Religiosas.
Desde ese entonces he estado investigando, comprando algunos libros y aprendiendo de twi y del desastre teológico y abusos cometidos por el alto mando.
Mi pregunta es la siguiente
Como puedo ayudar a que mi familia abandone esta secta?, llevan casi 40 años envueltos en esto, obviamente desconocen que es lo que ocurrió con LCM y las demandas, o el plagio de VPW, mi intención es poder sacarlos del culto. Alguna idea de como empezar?
I forgot to mention that I am from Chile, South America.
It sounds to me like you’ve really done your homework, and now hopefully you can boil all that down to bite-size digestible nuggets of truth and facts. If you can manage English (with or without the help of a translator) you might find useful some threads on Grease Spot for historical, timeline or topic-specific references – to help organize your thoughts and prepare you to help your family.
Recently another newcomer to Grease Spot talked about a similar concern – dating someone who is involved in TWI. One of Grease Spot’s “old timers” (WordWolf) replied to them saying you can’t really understand TWI without trying to understand the founder and its first president victor paul wierwille. Below I have provided a few links to WordWolf’s posts – which in themselves have a bunch more links for you to peruse. I think he does a great job of chronicling all things TWI.
I was involved in The Way International for some 12 years – I left the cult in 1986. I went through their missionary program (W.O.W.) and their leadership training program (the way corps). My reasons for leaving are many – and it all was on a “slow simmer” for several years while I was in – but it boiled over in 1986 – all my questions and doubts came to a head. That was when the founding president (wierwille) passed away and the power-struggles of some upper leadership ensued – which made me reevaluate what they taught me and got me to look more into their true nature from a variety of perspectives – which sounds like what you did (checking out books and John Juedes) kudos to you my friend.
From my own experience I’ve found that helping someone else escape a rabbit hole will involve a lot of patience, understanding, empathy, honesty and respect on your part (as one who has already escaped the rabbit hole). I believe it’s important to promote critical thinking. I am still a Christian even after leaving TWI…and sometimes on Grease Spot I like to express the idea that TWI is essentially parasitic – relying on exploiting others – whether it’s plagiarism, twisting Scripture to suit their own agenda and moral depravity or taking advantage of followers in so many ways. Even at its most basic level, TWI is indeed a parasite of lies that NEEDS some truth in order to survive. Check out Jesus Christ exercising critical thinking in Luke 4 to counter the devil’s twisted use of Scripture. We often can help others escape TWI when we point out some obvious difference between a truth and a lie…some obvious difference between some fact and TWI’s fictionalized version of it.
Rather than throw everything all at once at your family – take some time to analyze your own journey out of TWI. What stuff, teachings or experiences caused you to question or doubt? Bottom line is that you really can’t force anyone to see through the religious façade of TWI. But you can point out some chinks in their supposed armor of credibility – like going over the plagiarism or fabrications and embellishments of events (using the details from threads listed below) – hopefully that will lodge some questions and doubts in their minds – which may act like an electrical charge to stimulate the atrophied critical thinking "muscles"…People base their beliefs on what they think is a trusted source. Your task is to offer reasons why TWI should NOT be trusted.
Good luck Francisco - you asked some great questions – and welcome to Grease Spot
Love & peace
T-Bone
== == == ==
These links below may help you investigate further (the links below are to posts that have a bunch more links); also take advantage of the search engine in the top right section of the webpage – just type in a topic and get familiar with how this website is laid out.
Sorry I don’t speak your language…btw, I really enjoyed watching Toy Story 3 with my daughter the other day. There’s one scene where they press a factory reset button for too long on the back of Buzz Lightyear and he started talking in Spanish – and fortunately for me the movie had subtitles when he talked – I loved it! They even had the Toy Story theme song “You’ve Got A Friend in Me” in Spanish at the end of the movie.
Incredible testimony, I will take a look at the links you left, thank you very much for supporting me and answering my questions.
The Toy Story thing was very funny since here in Latin America they give Buzz a Spanish accent in that part of the movie, which is as different as the English accent from the American accent.
If your family has been in TWI for almost 40 years, they lived thtough all the lawsuits with LCM, and the plagiarism of VPW. LCM has only been gone for 20 years or so, and they have had ample time to evaluate all that has been going on. What is your relationship with your family? What do they think about you leaving TWI? How do you correspond with them? Do you get together with them physically?
i wouldn’t rush into trying to enlighten them about all you know. Talk to them and see if there are small things they maybe questioning about TWI? This might be a way to introduce light into the situation.
Welcome to the cafe. There plenty of people here willing to help you out.
I get along with my family, I see them quite a lot, but the twi people, some friends stopped talking to me (especially when I let some of them about vpw plagiarism).
When I left Twi my parents thought it was horrible, they got mad at me for a while, especially when the representatives of Twi came to my country to accuse me that I wrote on Facebook that they were a cult (my immaturity error).
I get along well with my family but we don't talk about religion.
"The Giver and His Gifts" is probably worthwhile reading and keeping. It is a written work stolen by Wierwille and more or less reproduced by him as Receiving the Holy Spirit Today ("the White Book"). Likewise "The Gift of the Holy Spirit" is likely worthwhile: JE Stiles is who VWP stole his "Foundational Class" from. Your concordance is probably worthwhile, TWI wouldn't have interfered with that too much.
The other books are well worthy of the incinerator In other words: worthless.
On 1/29/2021 at 2:07 PM, Fco Orostegui said:
Como puedo ayudar a que mi familia abandone esta secta?, llevan casi 40 años envueltos en esto, obviamente desconocen que es lo que ocurrió con LCM y las demandas, o el plagio de VPW, mi intención es poder sacarlos del culto. Alguna idea de como empezar?
Be very patient. Be kind and not confrontational. Do not let them browbeat or be confrontational: just present what facts you knwow.
And pray for them, pray that they be enlightened. If they have a genuine desire to know God, God can show them where they are wrong in their beliefs.
God is bigger than any of us can begin to imagine. I am sure God is working in their hearts to show them a different path; they just need help to see that different path.
God bless you and keep you peaceful in your endeavours to release your family from the bondage of TWI. Pray for them; but it is not you who will release them from bondage, it is the Lord.
I have these books, I sent them to the US and they have helped me a lot (even though I'm not that good in English)
Hi Francisco,
Wow – you’ve done some serious reading! I have a few other books by E.W. Bullinger , including The Companion Bible - something I still refer to on occasion. . Another Bullinger book I have is How to Enjoy the Bible , and btw, wierwille plagiarized from that book quite a bit! Since I left TWI, I’ve come to a different opinion of Bullinger’s body of work – though it all may sometimes have some helpful technical details, I don’t agree with his ultra-dispensationalism or his sometimes mystical interpretation methods.
Also I think Bullinger got so fixated on some ideas he couldn’t see the forest for the trees – for example in appendix 164 “The “Others” Crucified with the Lord” in The Companion Bible (again, one of the many things wierwille plagiarized), Bullinger presents a case that there were 4 crucified with Jesus. Something I now find tone deaf to the most important aspect of the crucifixion – that Jesus Christ the Son of God was crucified and died for our sins.
Besides the fact that Bullinger confuses and confabulates the narrative and vocabulary of several different witnesses (the four Gospels) – I tend to think Bullinger presents a false dilemma – something that wierwille also capitalized on – to entice people to follow them so that readers will know what “The Word” really says – thus making their “services” seem necessary.
Besides a simple internet searching of the earliest art depictions of the crucifixion scene (which I’ve found go back to about the 3rd century) and if they do show others crucified with Jesus - it's only two; Even a thorough reading of each Gospel (take your pick of any language, version or translation) and assuming the Gospel writers had the word “four” in their vocabulary, as well as being familiar with the mathematical concept of four - there is nothing in the complete narrative of each Gospel to suggest the idea of four people being crucified with Jesus. I think Bullinger’s case is laughable.
John Juedes (whom you’re familiar with) has a couple of good brief articles analyzing Bullinger’s and wierwille’s contrived solution to an imaginary problem - click on links here contradictory definitions of allos & heteros and here Were Four Men Crucified with Christ? You may have already read those – so I’ll list them here anyway for the benefit of others...
I think Bullinger and wierwille may have had some dubious notion that God hid certain details and was waiting for biblical cryptologists to decipher the code. yeah right - I think they ignored the fact that the Gospels were compiled – which means they were assembled from several sources – this is clearly indicated in Luke 1 “Since many have undertaken to compile an account of the things accomplished among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word…” Here are some interesting articles that speculate on how the Gospels were formed - click on links herehere and here
And one more thing – when I first took the PFAL class in 1974, I fell for wierwille’s argument that there must be four crucified because both thieves mocked Jesus in Matthew 27: 44 but in Luke 23: 39 - 42 one of the malefactors repents – so must be four people crucified with Jesus, right? Nope ! Besides “thieves” and “malefactors” being just about similar in N.T. Greek as in English (“malefactor” is a criminal, wrongdoer, lawbreaker…”thief” is a criminal, robber, burglar) and each individual eyewitness might in their own words describe the same incident a little differently than someone else ,
one should also consider the possibility that one of the thieves who mocked Jesus in Matthew 27 was also the malefactor who had a change of heart in Luke 23. Sometimes people do that when they’re lying at death’s door.
If you need something to cinch this straight forward interpretation of there being only two crucified with Jesus then you might find helpful The NIV Integrated Study Bible: A New Chronological Approach for Exploring Scripture, John R. Kohlenberger III editor , which offers a parallel or “synoptic” approach to the Gospels – all four Gospels are arranged parallel across the pages to retain the unique structure and context of each Gospel. In my opinion it reads much more naturally and logically than the piecemeal nonlinear narrative that Bullinger (and wierwille) offered. If I had to bring up some important side issue of who else was crucified with Jesus, I would cite Galatians 2: 20 and say I was!
Like I said I have some of Bullinger’s books. And believe it or not I still have all of wierwille’s books. I’m not one to tell people what books to read or ignore. But I do encourage people to read with their critical thinking skills fully engaged. I’ve also found that wierwille’s body of work does not hold up very well upon closer scrutiny.
Getting back to the biggest issue - it’s important to point out to TWI followers the seriousness of wierwille’s plagiarism (some of those threads I gave links to in my previous post touch on the many aspects of that).
The two biggest takeaways that should shock any TWI follower who would care to listen to reason - are that
wierwille claimed all the plagiarized material was the result of his own hard work, diligent study, research and experience
and that if you saw any semblance of material “borrowed” from other authors, wierwille would claim that it was actually sanctioned by God who personally taught him how to accurately piece together the work of others to produce the integrity and accuracy of “The Word”.
Needless to say, it is ironic to point out that if God sanctioned that – He basically gave wierwille a free pass to break two of the commandments – thou shall not lie and thou shall not steal. That makes wierwille a charlatan and a hypocrite.
As I mentioned in my previous post, people base their beliefs on what they think is a trusted source and so your task is to offer reasons why TWI should NOT be trusted. And probably a preliminary step to that might be easing your family member toward the ideas that there are false prophets and teachers in the world, how to identify them, and how good unsuspecting Christians can be fooled by them. One of the toughest pills to swallow is the realization that one has been duped.As I said earlier, helping someone else escape a rabbit hole will involve a lot of patience, understanding, empathy, honesty and respect on your part - so walk softly and carry a big heart when someone is willing to listen and open up to you.
I’ll give you a couple of passages from the Bible Gateway website – the first reference is the NIV English translation, the other one is in a Spanish translation. You might find this website helpful in your studies – you type in the book or passage in the upper left window and click on the pulldown box on the right for the version you want. So, to go along with the warnings of false prophets and teachers, identifying them and how TWI has ravaged followers see:
There’s a few other books I would recommend – books by people who left TWI:
Undertow by Charlene Edge - the author goes by Penworks here on Grease Spot; she worked in TWI's research department and her book is a firsthand account of wierwille's tactics of control - even to the point of pressuring the research department to twist the interpretation of a verse to suit his agenda.
Question
Fco Orostegui
Hola a todos
Soy Francisco tengo 32 años y desde que tengo memoria mi familia participa en twi, yo abandoné esta secta hace unos 7 años mas menos cuando me topé con la página de John Juedes, con quien también he podido hablar por teléfono y quien me dirigió a un Centro de Investigaciones Religiosas.
Desde ese entonces he estado investigando, comprando algunos libros y aprendiendo de twi y del desastre teológico y abusos cometidos por el alto mando.
Mi pregunta es la siguiente
Como puedo ayudar a que mi familia abandone esta secta?, llevan casi 40 años envueltos en esto, obviamente desconocen que es lo que ocurrió con LCM y las demandas, o el plagio de VPW, mi intención es poder sacarlos del culto. Alguna idea de como empezar?
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T-Bone
Hi Francisco,
It sounds to me like you’ve really done your homework, and now hopefully you can boil all that down to bite-size digestible nuggets of truth and facts. If you can manage English (with or without the help of a translator) you might find useful some threads on Grease Spot for historical, timeline or topic-specific references – to help organize your thoughts and prepare you to help your family.
Recently another newcomer to Grease Spot talked about a similar concern – dating someone who is involved in TWI. One of Grease Spot’s “old timers” (WordWolf) replied to them saying you can’t really understand TWI without trying to understand the founder and its first president victor paul wierwille. Below I have provided a few links to WordWolf’s posts – which in themselves have a bunch more links for you to peruse. I think he does a great job of chronicling all things TWI.
I was involved in The Way International for some 12 years – I left the cult in 1986. I went through their missionary program (W.O.W.) and their leadership training program (the way corps). My reasons for leaving are many – and it all was on a “slow simmer” for several years while I was in – but it boiled over in 1986 – all my questions and doubts came to a head. That was when the founding president (wierwille) passed away and the power-struggles of some upper leadership ensued – which made me reevaluate what they taught me and got me to look more into their true nature from a variety of perspectives – which sounds like what you did (checking out books and John Juedes) kudos to you my friend.
From my own experience I’ve found that helping someone else escape a rabbit hole will involve a lot of patience, understanding, empathy, honesty and respect on your part (as one who has already escaped the rabbit hole). I believe it’s important to promote critical thinking. I am still a Christian even after leaving TWI…and sometimes on Grease Spot I like to express the idea that TWI is essentially parasitic – relying on exploiting others – whether it’s plagiarism, twisting Scripture to suit their own agenda and moral depravity or taking advantage of followers in so many ways. Even at its most basic level, TWI is indeed a parasite of lies that NEEDS some truth in order to survive. Check out Jesus Christ exercising critical thinking in Luke 4 to counter the devil’s twisted use of Scripture. We often can help others escape TWI when we point out some obvious difference between a truth and a lie…some obvious difference between some fact and TWI’s fictionalized version of it.
Rather than throw everything all at once at your family – take some time to analyze your own journey out of TWI. What stuff, teachings or experiences caused you to question or doubt? Bottom line is that you really can’t force anyone to see through the religious façade of TWI. But you can point out some chinks in their supposed armor of credibility – like going over the plagiarism or fabrications and embellishments of events (using the details from threads listed below) – hopefully that will lodge some questions and doubts in their minds – which may act like an electrical charge to stimulate the atrophied critical thinking "muscles"…People base their beliefs on what they think is a trusted source. Your task is to offer reasons why TWI should NOT be trusted.
Good luck Francisco - you asked some great questions – and welcome to Grease Spot
Love & peace
T-Bone
== == == ==
These links below may help you investigate further (the links below are to posts that have a bunch more links); also take advantage of the search engine in the top right section of the webpage – just type in a topic and get familiar with how this website is laid out.
understanding TWI by understanding vpw
vpw’s failed promises, plagiarism, timelines and eyewitnesses
more info from eyewitnesses.
== == ==
Sorry I don’t speak your language…btw, I really enjoyed watching Toy Story 3 with my daughter the other day. There’s one scene where they press a factory reset button for too long on the back of Buzz Lightyear and he started talking in Spanish – and fortunately for me the movie had subtitles when he talked – I loved it! They even had the Toy Story theme song “You’ve Got A Friend in Me” in Spanish at the end of the movie.
end of Toy Story 3 - song "You've Got A Friend in Me" in Spanish
Edited by T-Boneformatting and typos
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Stayed Too Long
If your family has been in TWI for almost 40 years, they lived thtough all the lawsuits with LCM, and the plagiarism of VPW. LCM has only been gone for 20 years or so, and they have had ample time to evaluate all that has been going on. What is your relationship with your family? What do they think about you leaving TWI? How do you correspond with them? Do you get together with them physically?
i wouldn’t rush into trying to enlighten them about all you know. Talk to them and see if there are small things they maybe questioning about TWI? This might be a way to introduce light into the situation.
Welcome to the cafe. There plenty of people here willing to help you out.
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WordWolf
Good evening, Mister Orostegui.
I would be happy to help you- by directing you to more information, and by answering questions and things like that. Before I start that whole process, I think it's important to know how good your English is. Are you able to read pages of English text without a translator? Are you only able to read them with Google Translate or something similar? I can give you much more help in English than I can in Spanish. Feel free to contact me privately with a "private message" ("pm"). (You can click on my name, then on the "message" button on my information page to do that.)
Just in case none of that was understood.....
Buenas noches, Señor Orostegui.
Puedo ayudarle alegremente. Puedo dirigirle a más información, y puedo responder preguntas y otras cosas. Ante todo, yo creo que es importante saber su nivel de Ingles. Puede leer paginas de texto en Ingles sin un traductor? Puede leer Ingles solamente con la ayuda de un programa como Google Translate? Puedo ayudarle más facilmente y con más informacion en Ingles que en Español (o castellano). Puede contactarme privadamente con un "mensaje privado" ("pm") cuando quiera. (Haga un "clic" sobre mi nombre, y luego un clic en "message" en la pagina con mi informacion.)
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Fco Orostegui
Hello, that they have been 40 years old is a way of saying, they were disconnected from twi from 96-97 until 2012, since there was a problem with the representative of the Country (I think the guy stole some land and money), And as a result of this, many people left for Twi in Chile, but my parents and uncles kept the Twi style, making twigs, that's why they don't know about lcm, they learned something about Chriss Gere's letter, but nothing in detail, the Senior Twi commanders in my country hid a lot of information, so my relatives do not know all these things, nor about the cases of abuse of lcm.
Then in 2012, unfortunately it was me who contacted the Twi people in my country again (believing that I was bringing my family closer to God again), since my parents do not understand they do not have much contact with technology or the internet. As an adult I managed to take the Fundamental Class, when then I started researching vpw and its teachings and came across this whole iceberg of things.
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Fco Orostegui
Hola WordWolf, My level of English is not very advanced but I can read and understand (sometimes I help myself with the translator and I am able to distinguish when the translator changes the meaning of the sentences) I greatly appreciate your help with this.
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Fco Orostegui
I forgot to mention that I am from Chile, South America.
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Fco Orostegui
Incredible testimony, I will take a look at the links you left, thank you very much for supporting me and answering my questions.
The Toy Story thing was very funny since here in Latin America they give Buzz a Spanish accent in that part of the movie, which is as different as the English accent from the American accent.
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Fco Orostegui
I get along with my family, I see them quite a lot, but the twi people, some friends stopped talking to me (especially when I let some of them about vpw plagiarism).
When I left Twi my parents thought it was horrible, they got mad at me for a while, especially when the representatives of Twi came to my country to accuse me that I wrote on Facebook that they were a cult (my immaturity error).
I get along well with my family but we don't talk about religion.
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Fco Orostegui
I have these books, I sent them to the US and they have helped me a lot (even though I'm not that good in English)
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Twinky
"The Giver and His Gifts" is probably worthwhile reading and keeping. It is a written work stolen by Wierwille and more or less reproduced by him as Receiving the Holy Spirit Today ("the White Book"). Likewise "The Gift of the Holy Spirit" is likely worthwhile: JE Stiles is who VWP stole his "Foundational Class" from. Your concordance is probably worthwhile, TWI wouldn't have interfered with that too much.
The other books are well worthy of the incinerator In other words: worthless.
Be very patient. Be kind and not confrontational. Do not let them browbeat or be confrontational: just present what facts you knwow.
And pray for them, pray that they be enlightened. If they have a genuine desire to know God, God can show them where they are wrong in their beliefs.
God is bigger than any of us can begin to imagine. I am sure God is working in their hearts to show them a different path; they just need help to see that different path.
God bless you and keep you peaceful in your endeavours to release your family from the bondage of TWI. Pray for them; but it is not you who will release them from bondage, it is the Lord.
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T-Bone
Hi Francisco,
Wow – you’ve done some serious reading! I have a few other books by E.W. Bullinger , including The Companion Bible - something I still refer to on occasion. . Another Bullinger book I have is How to Enjoy the Bible , and btw, wierwille plagiarized from that book quite a bit! Since I left TWI, I’ve come to a different opinion of Bullinger’s body of work – though it all may sometimes have some helpful technical details, I don’t agree with his ultra-dispensationalism or his sometimes mystical interpretation methods.
Also I think Bullinger got so fixated on some ideas he couldn’t see the forest for the trees – for example in appendix 164 “The “Others” Crucified with the Lord” in The Companion Bible (again, one of the many things wierwille plagiarized), Bullinger presents a case that there were 4 crucified with Jesus. Something I now find tone deaf to the most important aspect of the crucifixion – that Jesus Christ the Son of God was crucified and died for our sins.
Besides the fact that Bullinger confuses and confabulates the narrative and vocabulary of several different witnesses (the four Gospels) – I tend to think Bullinger presents a false dilemma – something that wierwille also capitalized on – to entice people to follow them so that readers will know what “The Word” really says – thus making their “services” seem necessary.
Besides a simple internet searching of the earliest art depictions of the crucifixion scene (which I’ve found go back to about the 3rd century) and if they do show others crucified with Jesus - it's only two; Even a thorough reading of each Gospel (take your pick of any language, version or translation) and assuming the Gospel writers had the word “four” in their vocabulary, as well as being familiar with the mathematical concept of four - there is nothing in the complete narrative of each Gospel to suggest the idea of four people being crucified with Jesus. I think Bullinger’s case is laughable.
John Juedes (whom you’re familiar with) has a couple of good brief articles analyzing Bullinger’s and wierwille’s contrived solution to an imaginary problem - click on links here contradictory definitions of allos & heteros and here Were Four Men Crucified with Christ? You may have already read those – so I’ll list them here anyway for the benefit of others...
I think Bullinger and wierwille may have had some dubious notion that God hid certain details and was waiting for biblical cryptologists to decipher the code. yeah right -
I think they ignored the fact that the Gospels were compiled – which means they were assembled from several sources – this is clearly indicated in Luke 1 “Since many have undertaken to compile an account of the things accomplished among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word…” Here are some interesting articles that speculate on how the Gospels were formed - click on links here here and here
And one more thing – when I first took the PFAL class in 1974, I fell for wierwille’s argument that there must be four crucified because both thieves mocked Jesus in Matthew 27: 44 but in Luke 23: 39 - 42 one of the malefactors repents – so must be four people crucified with Jesus, right? Nope ! Besides “thieves” and “malefactors” being just about similar in N.T. Greek as in English (“malefactor” is a criminal, wrongdoer, lawbreaker…”thief” is a criminal, robber, burglar) and each individual eyewitness might in their own words describe the same incident a little differently than someone else ,
one should also consider the possibility that one of the thieves who mocked Jesus in Matthew 27 was also the malefactor who had a change of heart in Luke 23. Sometimes people do that when they’re lying at death’s door.
If you need something to cinch this straight forward interpretation of there being only two crucified with Jesus then you might find helpful The NIV Integrated Study Bible: A New Chronological Approach for Exploring Scripture, John R. Kohlenberger III editor , which offers a parallel or “synoptic” approach to the Gospels – all four Gospels are arranged parallel across the pages to retain the unique structure and context of each Gospel. In my opinion it reads much more naturally and logically than the piecemeal nonlinear narrative that Bullinger (and wierwille) offered. If I had to bring up some important side issue of who else was crucified with Jesus, I would cite Galatians 2: 20 and say I was!
Like I said I have some of Bullinger’s books. And believe it or not I still have all of wierwille’s books. I’m not one to tell people what books to read or ignore. But I do encourage people to read with their critical thinking skills fully engaged. I’ve also found that wierwille’s body of work does not hold up very well upon closer scrutiny.
Getting back to the biggest issue - it’s important to point out to TWI followers the seriousness of wierwille’s plagiarism (some of those threads I gave links to in my previous post touch on the many aspects of that).
The two biggest takeaways that should shock any TWI follower who would care to listen to reason - are that
wierwille claimed all the plagiarized material was the result of his own hard work, diligent study, research and experience
and that if you saw any semblance of material “borrowed” from other authors, wierwille would claim that it was actually sanctioned by God who personally taught him how to accurately piece together the work of others to produce the integrity and accuracy of “The Word”.
Needless to say, it is ironic to point out that if God sanctioned that – He basically gave wierwille a free pass to break two of the commandments – thou shall not lie and thou shall not steal. That makes wierwille a charlatan and a hypocrite.
I would also recommend another book – which I found helpful in my continued study of the Bible and in deconstructing some of the deceptive tactics of TWI’s doctrine – it’s Scripture Twisting: 20 Ways the Cults Misread the Bible by James Sire .
As I mentioned in my previous post, people base their beliefs on what they think is a trusted source and so your task is to offer reasons why TWI should NOT be trusted. And probably a preliminary step to that might be easing your family member toward the ideas that there are false prophets and teachers in the world, how to identify them, and how good unsuspecting Christians can be fooled by them. One of the toughest pills to swallow is the realization that one has been duped. As I said earlier, helping someone else escape a rabbit hole will involve a lot of patience, understanding, empathy, honesty and respect on your part - so walk softly and carry a big heart when someone is willing to listen and open up to you.
I’ll give you a couple of passages from the Bible Gateway website – the first reference is the NIV English translation, the other one is in a Spanish translation. You might find this website helpful in your studies – you type in the book or passage in the upper left window and click on the pulldown box on the right for the version you want. So, to go along with the warnings of false prophets and teachers, identifying them and how TWI has ravaged followers see:
Matthew 7 and Mateo 7 .... II Peter 2 and 2 Pedro 2
There’s a few other books I would recommend – books by people who left TWI:
Undertow by Charlene Edge - the author goes by Penworks here on Grease Spot; she worked in TWI's research department and her book is a firsthand account of wierwille's tactics of control - even to the point of pressuring the research department to twist the interpretation of a verse to suit his agenda.
Losing the Way: A Memoir of Spiritual Longing, Manipulation, Abuse, and Escape by Kristen Skedgell
The Cult That Snapped: A Journey Into The Way International by Karl Kahler (currently unavailable) - I listed this book as well in case it becomes available again in the future
i wish you and your family the best
love and peace
T-Bone
Edited by T-Boneformatting and typos
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