I have deleted *some* off topic posts by both Allan and Raf, and a couple of others where the deleted posts were quoted. Obviously there are some I didn’t bother with for now at least.
This stuff needs to stop and posts need to stay on topic, which is the story referenced in Rocky’s original post on the thread.
Further posting which is off-topic, political or personal attacks in nature may result in the offender’s future posts needing moderator review in order to appear on GSC.
Thank you.
I've just started reading this. I'm struck by (chapter 1) how Moishe the Beadle escaped being murdered and got back to the village to tell all exactly what was happening. Nobody believed him. Nobody thought such horrific treatment could be true.
I'm struck by the fact that there were many who warned us that TWI wasn't a safe place to be. "It's a cult. It's not good Bible teaching." Did we listen? No, we continued, thinking all was well and would be well. We ploughed on into our own wonderland that became increasingly horrific year after year. And now, we who have escaped on our own or in droves - are not believed, not listened to, are mocked, by those who choose to remain.
Bold speakers like Moishe the Beadle, and some of the people here - and of course many of the OT prophets - have ever been ignored and told that the bad thing foretold isn't going to happen.
Excellent points Twinky. There is a fallacy in the saying that hindsight is 20/20. I believe that history is recorded or remembered through the "corrective" lens of those viewing the event. The accuracy of the account depends upon the viewpoint of the observer and the veracity of the event depends upon the viewpoint of the listener. All of which could be completely true or completely false, but more likely will fall somewhere along the continuum of facts. The rewriting of history is a favorite passion of historians.
I have always thought of the expression, "Hindsight is 20/20." as being a way to express regret for a decision to do something or not do something. For example, "When I interviewed for the job, there were subtle warning signs I chose to ignore. Now, after a year, I have a clearer picture and regret the decision. Hindsight is 20/20.". That's just the way I've always interpreted it. I could be wrong, though.
I have always thought of the expression, "Hindsight is 20/20." as being a way to express regret for a decision to do something or not do something. For example, "When I interviewed for the job, there were subtle warning signs I chose to ignore. Now, after a year, I have a clearer picture and regret the decision. Hindsight is 20/20.". That's just the way I've always interpreted it. I could be wrong, though.
That's a reasonable interpretation, but it IS a subjective/idiomatic expression so I don't see yours as necessarily contradictory to what Twinky and Flow7 said about it.
8 hours ago, Flow7 said:
Excellent points Twinky. There is a fallacy in the saying that hindsight is 20/20. I believe that history is recorded or remembered through the "corrective" lens of those viewing the event. The accuracy of the account depends upon the viewpoint of the observer and the veracity of the event depends upon the viewpoint of the listener. All of which could be completely true or completely false, but more likely will fall somewhere along the continuum of facts. The rewriting of history is a favorite passion of historians.
Yes, history is recorded through the subjective lens of those writing the record. There's also the expression, "history is written by the winners." Knowing some historians and archivists, I'll disagree with you about what their passion might be. They want to get it right, generally speaking. But they still have the filter of their education and experience.
17 hours ago, Twinky said:
I'm struck by (chapter 1) how Moishe the Beadle escaped being murdered and got back to the village to tell all exactly what was happening. Nobody believed him. Nobody thought such horrific treatment could be true.
I'm struck by the fact that there were many who warned us that TWI wasn't a safe place to be. "It's a cult. It's not good Bible teaching." Did we listen? No, we continued, thinking all was well and would be well.
That's a reasonable comparison even though the danger faced in the two scenarios was, for the most part not comparable. It strikes me that so many people have had the records of pandemic history, notably the 1918 Spanish Flu (might be labeled differently in records in other countries), and that it's clear that social distancing, wearing masks and frequent hand washing were established as effective practices to protect people during that pandemic. Yet, it's troubling that so many people in 2020 are oblivious and defiant... with far too many from their ranks ending up dead.
In March, right after it became widely understood that we faced a deadly pandemic, I was able to read a book about the 1918 Spanish Flu.
My point is that Moishe's experience was hardly unique, as was ours with TWI. It seems to be human nature.
Excellent points Twinky. There is a fallacy in the saying that hindsight is 20/20.
I believe that history is recorded or remembered through the "corrective" lens of those viewing the event.
The accuracy of the account depends upon the viewpoint of the observer and the veracity of the event depends upon the viewpoint of the listener. All of which could be completely true or completely false, but more likely will fall somewhere along the continuum of facts.
The rewriting of history is a favorite passion of historians.
What you said seems to reflect a skepticism that does not see the importance of historians’ efforts to investigate the events, records, documents, facts, and human affairs of the past – and basically sounds like you are denying it’s possible to access the past. Did I get that right? Is that what you are saying?
Also, I think you may be conflating “20/20 hindsight” with what historians actually do. “Hindsight is 20/20 is a proverb that means it is easy to understand something after it has already happened. The expression hindsight is 20/20 is usually said in answer to an admonishment that the person should have known something would happen, or that the person made a bad decision. It is easy to see what someone should have done, after the situation is already finished.” (from grammarist.com )…So basically 20/20 hindsight is a way of thinking about events or decisions that have already happened…in other words history. And implicit in the proverb of 20/20 hindsight is that there is no need for a corrective lens – the answer is obviously crystal clear.
Could you please clarify what you mean by “rewriting of history is a favorite passion of historians.” Are you talking about historical revisionism?
I believe there is such a thing as legitimate historical revisionism which “entails the refinement of existing knowledge about a historical event, not a denial of the event, itself; that such refinement of history emerges from the examination of new, empirical evidence, and a re-examination, and consequent re-interpretation of the existing documentary evidence. That legitimate historical revisionism acknowledges the existence of a "certain body of irrefutable evidence" and the existence of a "convergence of evidence", which suggest that an event – such as the Black Death, American slavery, and the Holocaust – did occur; whereas the denialism of history rejects the entire foundation of historical evidence, which is a form of historical negationism.” (From Wikipedia - historical revisionism )
legitimate historical revisionism which “entails the refinement of existing knowledge about a historical event, not a denial of the event, itself; that such refinement of history emerges from the examination of new, empirical evidence, and a re-examination, and consequent re-interpretation of the existing documentary evidence. That legitimate historical revisionism acknowledges the existence of a "certain body of irrefutable evidence" and the existence of a "convergence of evidence", which suggest that an event – such as the Black Death, American slavery, and the Holocaust – did occur; whereas the denialism of history rejects the entire foundation of historical evidence, which is a form of historical negationism.
My reference to the 20/20 hindsight was initially in response to the specific portion of the book that Twinky was referencing - namely that no one in the village believed Moishe the Beadle regarding the horrors that he was warning them about. It was very much along the lines of Waysiders train of thought and is reflected in the remainder of the book by the consequences of the decisions made by the writer during those early warnings. If only he had listened and believed and left the village, all would have been different.
I think that as a colloquialism, the phrase is used primarily in a non-scholarly context, and as such is more of a linguistic idiom and does not reflect the dedication and efforts of true historians. It's always easier to ask "what ifs" in hindsight than to predict probable outcomes. On a personal level, as Waysider mentioned, it's easier for an individual to review specific decisions and moments in time where certain events would have differt outcomes if different choices were made. I totally agree that the definition T-Bone supplied is correctly applied to learning from our mistakes.
My last phrase about rewriting of history was made tongue in cheek and I was thinking along the lines of Monday night armchair quarterbacks critiquing the minutiae of Sunday's football games.
Given the gravity of the subject matter of the book "Night", I guess that was a bad time for attempting to inject humor. History and its preservation is a very important aspect of our lives and should always be considered within the context of the evidence as stated in T-Bone's post. No skepticism was intended nor meant to be implied.
Given the gravity of the subject matter of the book "Night", I guess that was a bad time for attempting to inject humor. History and its preservation is a very important aspect of our lives and should always be considered within the context of the evidence as stated in George's post. No skepticism was intended nor meant to be implies.
I appreciate the clarification. All I would say is that it is often difficult to effectively communicate humor, hence, why folks didn't pick up on it.
I just finished the audio book. It is well suited to an audio narration.
The book is powerful and moving. It really opens one's eyes to the sheer magnitude of what happened. I kept finding myself wishing it would end a bit differently but real life has a tendency to do that.
I read the online version. So hard to grasp that such should happen. Such cruelty - and yet occasional great moments of compassion and kindness between father and son. And other moments of hideous greed.
I too wished that it would be a different ending... so sad that Eliezer and his father were parted, at (as it were) one minute to midnight - just before their release.
And yet this sad story is just one of - of millions.
A local high school English teacher and I connected on FB a few days ago. I didn't tell her about Wierwille's obsession with a book called the Myth of the Six Million. But had I mentioned it, she would have known what I was referring to.
She recommended a book to me, Night by Elie Wiesel. It's the record of a witness. Mr. Wiesel was a child when he was taken to a concentration camp with his family.
This is not a discussion of politics then or now. My intent is simply to call attention to an original witness account of a significant era in 20th Century history.
It is available as a pdf file for no charge at the link above.
If you believe that history repeats itself, or at least rhymes, this book may interest you.
After I finish reading it, I might post a synopsis here.
Rocky, wow!! I read that book several years ago. What a great book, but it isn't an easy read. EW won the Nobel Peace Prize, in 1988(?). His books often portray his time spent in concentration camps, during WWII. I don't think I could have ever forgiven my captors, for all the horrendous things, they did to me, let alone what they did to my family. I think VPW, was a coward, for dodging the draft during WWII. My father served in the Army, during that war. And then, VPW had the nerve, to teach that the Holocaust never happened!! Boy, was I upset, when I heard his teaching on this in the AC in 1985!! Not only, was he a coward, but he was also Anti-Semitic. Six Million died because most of them were Jewish. I think he denied the Holocaust, because his family was German. He claimed he didn't fight in the war, because he didn't want to fight the Fatherland. Bulls--t!! He was a coward, and knew it. The military is a hard life, but VPW wanted to take the easy, and safe way out, by staying out of the war. When I found out that he was a Draft-Dodger, I lost what little respect, I ever had for him. And when, he claimed the Holocaust, never happened, I stopped listening to whatever he said.
And figuratively speaking I don’t think there will ever be a wide-scale cure for the cancer of hatred. But I’m a believer in the “treatment of love” - - practicing empathy and compassionand inspiring the same in others. Treating the cancer of hate one heart at a time.
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Twinky
There is a small number of survivors still alive, and some have written books. Others have died in the last decade or two. There's talk of 6 million people of Jewish extraction. There are also
waysider
Blaming devil spirits for everything was like the Easy Button in Way World. Got cancer?...devil spirits. Depression?... devil spirits. Substance abuse?...devil spirits. . And if you don't understand
WordWolf
We know a loaded question from an "innocent" one.
Twinky
Play nice, people. Everyone.
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Bolshevik
Henry Ford was the only American mentioned by name in Mein Kampf.
Ironic.
Doing things at an industrial scale. Numbers matter. Yes?
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Bolshevik
"I watched helplessly as language became an obstacle"
Anyone actually reading this?
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waysider
Does audio book count?
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Modgellan
I have deleted *some* off topic posts by both Allan and Raf, and a couple of others where the deleted posts were quoted. Obviously there are some I didn’t bother with for now at least.
This stuff needs to stop and posts need to stay on topic, which is the story referenced in Rocky’s original post on the thread.
Further posting which is off-topic, political or personal attacks in nature may result in the offender’s future posts needing moderator review in order to appear on GSC.
Thank you.
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Raf
Well that was fun
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Twinky
I've just started reading this. I'm struck by (chapter 1) how Moishe the Beadle escaped being murdered and got back to the village to tell all exactly what was happening. Nobody believed him. Nobody thought such horrific treatment could be true.
I'm struck by the fact that there were many who warned us that TWI wasn't a safe place to be. "It's a cult. It's not good Bible teaching." Did we listen? No, we continued, thinking all was well and would be well. We ploughed on into our own wonderland that became increasingly horrific year after year. And now, we who have escaped on our own or in droves - are not believed, not listened to, are mocked, by those who choose to remain.
Bold speakers like Moishe the Beadle, and some of the people here - and of course many of the OT prophets - have ever been ignored and told that the bad thing foretold isn't going to happen.
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Flow7
Excellent points Twinky. There is a fallacy in the saying that hindsight is 20/20. I believe that history is recorded or remembered through the "corrective" lens of those viewing the event. The accuracy of the account depends upon the viewpoint of the observer and the veracity of the event depends upon the viewpoint of the listener. All of which could be completely true or completely false, but more likely will fall somewhere along the continuum of facts. The rewriting of history is a favorite passion of historians.
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waysider
I have always thought of the expression, "Hindsight is 20/20." as being a way to express regret for a decision to do something or not do something. For example, "When I interviewed for the job, there were subtle warning signs I chose to ignore. Now, after a year, I have a clearer picture and regret the decision. Hindsight is 20/20.". That's just the way I've always interpreted it. I could be wrong, though.
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Rocky
That's a reasonable interpretation, but it IS a subjective/idiomatic expression so I don't see yours as necessarily contradictory to what Twinky and Flow7 said about it.
Yes, history is recorded through the subjective lens of those writing the record. There's also the expression, "history is written by the winners." Knowing some historians and archivists, I'll disagree with you about what their passion might be. They want to get it right, generally speaking. But they still have the filter of their education and experience.
That's a reasonable comparison even though the danger faced in the two scenarios was, for the most part not comparable. It strikes me that so many people have had the records of pandemic history, notably the 1918 Spanish Flu (might be labeled differently in records in other countries), and that it's clear that social distancing, wearing masks and frequent hand washing were established as effective practices to protect people during that pandemic. Yet, it's troubling that so many people in 2020 are oblivious and defiant... with far too many from their ranks ending up dead.
In March, right after it became widely understood that we faced a deadly pandemic, I was able to read a book about the 1918 Spanish Flu.
My point is that Moishe's experience was hardly unique, as was ours with TWI. It seems to be human nature.
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T-Bone
What you said seems to reflect a skepticism that does not see the importance of historians’ efforts to investigate the events, records, documents, facts, and human affairs of the past – and basically sounds like you are denying it’s possible to access the past. Did I get that right? Is that what you are saying?
Also, I think you may be conflating “20/20 hindsight” with what historians actually do. “Hindsight is 20/20 is a proverb that means it is easy to understand something after it has already happened. The expression hindsight is 20/20 is usually said in answer to an admonishment that the person should have known something would happen, or that the person made a bad decision. It is easy to see what someone should have done, after the situation is already finished.” (from grammarist.com )…So basically 20/20 hindsight is a way of thinking about events or decisions that have already happened…in other words history. And implicit in the proverb of 20/20 hindsight is that there is no need for a corrective lens – the answer is obviously crystal clear.
Could you please clarify what you mean by “rewriting of history is a favorite passion of historians.” Are you talking about historical revisionism?
I believe there is such a thing as legitimate historical revisionism which “entails the refinement of existing knowledge about a historical event, not a denial of the event, itself; that such refinement of history emerges from the examination of new, empirical evidence, and a re-examination, and consequent re-interpretation of the existing documentary evidence. That legitimate historical revisionism acknowledges the existence of a "certain body of irrefutable evidence" and the existence of a "convergence of evidence", which suggest that an event – such as the Black Death, American slavery, and the Holocaust – did occur; whereas the denialism of history rejects the entire foundation of historical evidence, which is a form of historical negationism.” (From Wikipedia - historical revisionism )
Edited by T-Boneformatting and typos
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Rocky
YES!
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Flow7
My reference to the 20/20 hindsight was initially in response to the specific portion of the book that Twinky was referencing - namely that no one in the village believed Moishe the Beadle regarding the horrors that he was warning them about. It was very much along the lines of Waysiders train of thought and is reflected in the remainder of the book by the consequences of the decisions made by the writer during those early warnings. If only he had listened and believed and left the village, all would have been different.
I think that as a colloquialism, the phrase is used primarily in a non-scholarly context, and as such is more of a linguistic idiom and does not reflect the dedication and efforts of true historians. It's always easier to ask "what ifs" in hindsight than to predict probable outcomes. On a personal level, as Waysider mentioned, it's easier for an individual to review specific decisions and moments in time where certain events would have differt outcomes if different choices were made. I totally agree that the definition T-Bone supplied is correctly applied to learning from our mistakes.
My last phrase about rewriting of history was made tongue in cheek and I was thinking along the lines of Monday night armchair quarterbacks critiquing the minutiae of Sunday's football games.
Given the gravity of the subject matter of the book "Night", I guess that was a bad time for attempting to inject humor. History and its preservation is a very important aspect of our lives and should always be considered within the context of the evidence as stated in T-Bone's post. No skepticism was intended nor meant to be implied.
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Rocky
I appreciate the clarification. All I would say is that it is often difficult to effectively communicate humor, hence, why folks didn't pick up on it.
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T-Bone
thanks for the clarification, Flow7
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waysider
I just finished the audio book. It is well suited to an audio narration.
The book is powerful and moving. It really opens one's eyes to the sheer magnitude of what happened. I kept finding myself wishing it would end a bit differently but real life has a tendency to do that.
Thanks for recommending it.
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Twinky
I read the online version. So hard to grasp that such should happen. Such cruelty - and yet occasional great moments of compassion and kindness between father and son. And other moments of hideous greed.
I too wished that it would be a different ending... so sad that Eliezer and his father were parted, at (as it were) one minute to midnight - just before their release.
And yet this sad story is just one of - of millions.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Rocky, wow!! I read that book several years ago. What a great book, but it isn't an easy read. EW won the Nobel Peace Prize, in 1988(?). His books often portray his time spent in concentration camps, during WWII. I don't think I could have ever forgiven my captors, for all the horrendous things, they did to me, let alone what they did to my family. I think VPW, was a coward, for dodging the draft during WWII. My father served in the Army, during that war. And then, VPW had the nerve, to teach that the Holocaust never happened!! Boy, was I upset, when I heard his teaching on this in the AC in 1985!! Not only, was he a coward, but he was also Anti-Semitic. Six Million died because most of them were Jewish. I think he denied the Holocaust, because his family was German. He claimed he didn't fight in the war, because he didn't want to fight the Fatherland. Bulls--t!! He was a coward, and knew it. The military is a hard life, but VPW wanted to take the easy, and safe way out, by staying out of the war. When I found out that he was a Draft-Dodger, I lost what little respect, I ever had for him. And when, he claimed the Holocaust, never happened, I stopped listening to whatever he said.
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Rocky
Thanks T-Bone.
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Rocky
Last spring I read Valarie Kaur's memoir and manifesto of revolutionary love, See No Stranger. It's life changing (in a good way), especially for people emerging from fundamentalist cults.
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Stayed Too Long
I thought politics was off limits?
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Rocky
Stayed too long,
This is a discussion of history. Only the context is politics. I figure if it stays civil, it might not get deleted.
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Twinky
Well, I did write something about cult leadership, but pressed the wrong key by mistake and ended up losing the post. I'll write it again later.
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modcat5
It is.
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