Discourse is a good thing and maybe others will learn and decide for themselves based upon facts.
I totally agree with this sentiment. The thing is, though, over the years it's been talked about here on GSC until the cows came home and left again. Almost any conversation you might find interesting has been preserved in the threads that WW was kind enough to provide links to. Discussing it again is like proving the Pythagorean Theorem over and over and over again before you set out on a math project. Anyhow, the original subject, if I understand correctly, was a discussion of the referenced book. This has devolved into a meta discussion.
A handful of Jews also managed to escape to Australia, because that country was slow and reluctant to accept what was staring it in the face.
"....By the outbreak of World War II in September 1939, more than 7,000 Jewish refugees [who classed as "enemy aliens"] had arrived in Australia....Altogether, 8,200 Jewish refugees reached Australia between 1933 and 1945..." The document doesn't say where these people came from, whether Germany, Austria, Poland, Holland or any other country.
I respectfully disagree with Raf's assertion that there should be zero tolerance for Holocaust denialism at GSC. I think this is an excellent place because it provides a platform to show the contrast of ideas with an understanding of the origins of many of those ideas. It's often not possible to understand a person's view of historical events as many are skewed by confirmation biases. In this instance, we are aware of those origins and are able to compare and contrast the differences based upon facts.
The Holocaust Museum in Washington is not somewhere I had ever "wanted" to go, but felt I must go. Staring reality in the face is not a pleasant experience and is a very humbling insight into the depths of depravity that human nature can descend. One million, six million, eleven million are nebulous numbers because the scale is unimaginable but it does not negate the 70 - 85 million who died as a result of the war, about 3% of the entire world population. Yes, there is real documentation and real numbers, but unless there is an acknowledgement of those resources, there will always be unsubstantiated disagreements.
Discourse is a good thing and maybe others will learn and decide for themselves based upon facts.
Hi Flow7,
Conceptually, I agree with your sentiment. However, like waysider explained it's already been hashed out over and over and over and over... and over again here.
Practically speaking, there is no possibility that on this message board, we're going to successfully expand discussion and overall understanding of this very significant and solemn account of man's inhumanity to man.
As Allan''s "contributions" have already demonstrated, it IS possible for one person in a small group to obscure and distract away from any constructive discussion of the subject.
That's the gist of the why for Raf's declaration about Holocaust denial.
As I mentioned earlier, if people want to explore and challenge the detail of Holocaust research the Wikipedia article on the subject has 461 notes and a bibliography of roughly 100 articles/books written by scholars of the era. That's where Allan can deny and challenge to his heart's content without distracting from the topic of this thread -- One person's experience in the middle of the hell that actually took place.
I understand that this and almost every topic has been discussed on GSC; this particular one ad infinitum for those who have been around for a long time. I'm also aware that almost every discussion with differing opinions usually devolves into a discussion about Hitler and/or the Holocaust and that this happens not only here, but in many conversations every where. This particular topic happens to be about that very thing. But, I'm also aware that the Pythagorean theorem is taught in schools throughout the world every year because the information, while ubiquitous, is certainly not intuitive. Given our association with a cult (and some may still be in denial about that) it may be beneficial to occasionally beat the already dead horse. You may never know who may be lurking in the shadows.
I chose to respond because Rocky's topic is indeed important and merits full consideration. Eyewitnesses are becoming fewer each year and their testimony will be archived by those responsible for the preservation of historical "facts". As we know historical accuracy may not always be accurate and many opinions are spread and cultivated by word of mouth and believed simply because a friend told them it was so. Too many people are willing to "research " a topic based upon preconceived (mis)conceptions and fail to recognize differing relevant facts.
GSC is one of the few places that allows respectful dissent and allows the thread to continue until it dies a natural death of boredom and redundancy. That's a good thing. While most of the ideas, viewpoints, opinions and even pathos can be well anticipated by the actual few posters directly involved in the discussions, there may be some who are not at all familiar with this group. And you've got to admit that the title of this thread doesn't actually apply to a typical "soup question".
All that being said, I appreciate the wisdom, intellect, and dedication of many of the posters here who continue to expose the dark underbelly of the beast that was The Way. Light does expose the darkness but only while the light remains shining.
Rocky can cry wolf all he wants...the fact is HE brought the topic up. He STARTED THE THREAD by posting the book on the holocaust !! I happened to actually read the first dozen or so pages like he encouraged people to do and I asked a simple question about whether the statement from the AUTHOR OF THE BOOK was correct in noting that there were only 300, 000 Jews in Germany at the time of the persecution. It was a simple question because I was just not that interested in poring through a mountain of articles to add up where the other 5,634,000 victims came from. Sorry but I'm just not that terribly interested whether it was 300,000 or 6,000,000...It's just not 'relevant' to me...the same way 60,000 people around the world died last night from car wrecks, murders, disease and old age whilst you and I were sleeping...I don't lose sleep over it and I'll pretty much guarantee you don't either...because it is not RELEVANT to us (unless it was someone we KNOW). Now if the holocaust is 'relevant' to you, I can understand why the dandruff got flying in all directions and the gnashing of the falsies came flying out of the mouth :)
I respectfully disagree with Raf's assertion that there should be zero tolerance for Holocaust denialism at GSC. I think this is an excellent place because it provides a platform to show the contrast of ideas with an understanding of the origins of many of those ideas. It's often not possible to understand a person's view of historical events as many are skewed by confirmation biases. In this instance, we are aware of those origins and are able to compare and contrast the differences based upon facts.
The Holocaust Museum in Washington is not somewhere I had ever "wanted" to go, but felt I must go. Staring reality in the face is not a pleasant experience and is a very humbling insight into the depths of depravity that human nature can descend. One million, six million, eleven million are nebulous numbers because the scale is unimaginable but it does not negate the 70 - 85 million who died as a result of the war, about 3% of the entire world population. Yes, there is real documentation and real numbers, but unless there is an acknowledgement of those resources, there will always be unsubstantiated disagreements.
Discourse is a good thing and maybe others will learn and decide for themselves based upon facts.
We have gotten into this MORE THAN 5 times. I only linked 5 previous discussions on the subject. The GSC is about twi and its spinoffs, NOT Holocaust denial. If it WAS, then obviously we'd keep circling the same points a lot more. Since the Holocaust is completely inrelated to twi- except where people strongly pro-vpw all just HAPPEN to also deny the Holocaust as vpw and lcm did- it is senseless to FOREVER circle the SAME IRRELEVANT discussions, with a handful of people hiding from actual evidence and quoting from tinfoil hat conspiracy mongers. There has to be a point where even we acknowledge that even introducing more evidence is useless, because the conspiracy nuts here were never convinced with actual evidence, so they're COMFORTABLE with contradicting the existing evidence. A handful of twi kids met an actual Holocaust survivor as a GUEST SPEAKER at school. They heckled her, called her a liar, and made her cry.
It's the same mindset that others bring to the table, and they're more about derailing the discussion than actually serious discussions about the evidence.
This has been talked to death more than once. More than once, we've had discussions about large bodies of evidence and so on showing how the Holocaust happened. We've also had a handful of people- always very pro-vpw people, every time- come forward, ignore any posted information from any scholarly source, and insist vpw was right and the Holocaust either didn't happen or was wildly exaggerated.
I would recommend a new thread be started for this new discussion. However, this is NOT a "new" discussion The SAME tired old horse-manure is being peddled AGAIN, and was thoroughly disproved and discredited already. There's no point in another discussion. There's a point in reviewing pages and pages of when this happened before. I see no point in retyping the same information all over again into a new thread.
According to Wikipedia the genocide was carried out not just in Nazi Germany but also across German-occupied Europe and using more than just gas chambers:
"The Holocaust, also known as the Shoah, was the World War II genocide of the European Jews. Between 1941 and 1945, across German-occupied Europe, Nazi Germany and its collaborators systematically murdered some six million Jews, around two-thirds of Europe's Jewish population.The murders were carried out in pogroms and mass shootings; by a policy of extermination through work in concentration camps; and in gas chambers and gas vans in German extermination camps, chiefly Auschwitz, Bełżec, Chełmno, Majdanek, Sobibór, and Treblinka in occupied Poland." from Wikipedia - the Holocaust
If Allan's question was really as innocent as he claimed, he would have just stopped here, when T-Bpne answered him.
Allan's question was- where did 6 million Jews come from if there were less than a million in Nazi Germany?
T-Bone quoted Wikipedia- ALL OVER EUROPE. Germany rolled into Austria, Poland, France......
Seriously, it's EASY to study history online, if one actually cares.
As I've already stated "I do not really care much at all" ...I never bothered to read Ol Vics recommended book on 'the myth of the six million' because ...I don't really care.....what I CARE about is yourself, Raf and Rocky getting semi- hysterical because I asked a question with ABSOLUTELY NO HIDDEN MOTIVE...no hidden motive because again...I don't really care ! and all I got was accusations, criticism and dismissed as a 'nutter' and a 'tin foil hatter'....mate I exited twi in a lot less time than any of you three so whose the 'nutter' and 'tin foil hat wearers' ??
You'd do well by abiding by the three fingers pointing back saying.
You three left a 'hate' group behind, obviously the stench of it's characteristics still cling somewhat.
Rocky can cry wolf all he wants...the fact is HE brought the topic up. He STARTED THE THREAD by posting the book on the holocaust !! I happened to actually read the first dozen or so pages like he encouraged people to do and I asked a simple question about whether the statement from the AUTHOR OF THE BOOK was correct in noting that there were only 300, 000 Jews in Germany at the time of the persecution. It was a simple question because I was just not that interested in poring through a mountain of articles to add up where the other 5,634,000 victims came from. Sorry but I'm just not that terribly interested whether it was 300,000 or 6,000,000...It's just not 'relevant' to me...the same way 60,000 people around the world died last night from car wrecks, murders, disease and old age whilst you and I were sleeping...I don't lose sleep over it and I'll pretty much guarantee you don't either...because it is not RELEVANT to us (unless it was someone we KNOW). Now if the holocaust is 'relevant' to you, I can understand why the dandruff got flying in all directions and the gnashing of the falsies came flying out of the mouth :)
If you're "not interested" in the topic, then I would welcome you to stop participating on the thread. Thank you.
This topic certainly is important regarding the Holocaust because Rocky chose to post it in the OPEN forum. I'm over halfway through the book and very much appreciate his (Rocky's) suggestion to read it. Where the subject matter intersects with the interests of this group - in my opinion - is that it reflects some of the varying mindsets of our shared past and how we have progressed in the evolution of our thinking process.
I'm not trying to justify a position, but rather, trying to further Rocky's point of the importance of gathering and understanding eyewitness accounts of such an atrocious time in our history. History, as does virtually every topic in this site, repeat itself and will continue to do so as long as people are willing to post.
If I'm missing the point of this discussion, then it's because I don't know what other contributions to offer. He stated that his intent was to call attention to an original witness account of a significant era in 20th century history, and I think that he has presented us with a powerful example through the perspective of a actual survivor. I am not seeking resolution to as to whether or not there are Holocaust deniers nor what, if any, rational there is to those beliefs. Simply stated, thank you Rocky for suggesting a good book!
This topic certainly is important regarding the Holocaust because Rocky chose to post it in the OPEN forum. I'm over halfway through the book and very much appreciate his (Rocky's) suggestion to read it. Where the subject matter intersects with the interests of this group - in my opinion - is that it reflects some of the varying mindsets of our shared past and how we have progressed in the evolution of our thinking process.
I'm not trying to justify a position, but rather, trying to further Rocky's point of the importance of gathering and understanding eyewitness accounts of such an atrocious time in our history. History, as does virtually every topic in this site, repeat itself and will continue to do so as long as people are willing to post.
If I'm missing the point of this discussion, then it's because I don't know what other contributions to offer. He stated that his intent was to call attention to an original witness account of a significant era in 20th century history, and I think that he has presented us with a powerful example through the perspective of a actual survivor. I am not seeking resolution to as to whether or not there are Holocaust deniers nor what, if any, rational there is to those beliefs. Simply stated, thank you Rocky for suggesting a good book!
Nope, Flow7, you got the point exactly. Thank you.
Just finished reading the book. it was very easy to follow with a linear one dimensional storyline as well as it should be - a straightforward recounting of subjective events as they happened to one person. There was some, but not much, introspection during the telling of the tale because, for the most part, it wasn't neccessary; but rather the telling of the struggles for survival and mere existence. It's a tale that can only be fully understood by those who endured the horrors, but it's a tale we as humans should take heed.
Reviewing the flow of this thread is a good reminder for me of how easy it is for me to become sidetracked by the minutiae of some extraneous detail or detours. The topic was not about the denial of facts but of the horrors of human cruelty. Rather than chasing some of the tangential comments, I should have stuck to Rocky's stated intent, for that I apologize.
The book is a reminder that each individual has an important story to tell and that each story is as valid anyone elses, provided it is retold and understood from the viewpoint and perspective of the teller. It may not be accurate according to the actual facts, but the subjective opinions cannot be dismissed. It would be interesting to read an account from a guard's perspective of events as they happened. I'm sure most thought they were on the correct side and that they were advancing their cause for noble intentions. Hindsight has disputed that concept, but it's to easy to dismiss and be disgusted by their actions without understanding their motivations and thought processes.
This topic certainly is important regarding the Holocaust because Rocky chose to post it in the OPEN forum. I'm over halfway through the book and very much appreciate his (Rocky's) suggestion to read it. Where the subject matter intersects with the interests of this group - in my opinion - is that it reflects some of the varying mindsets of our shared past and how we have progressed in the evolution of our thinking process.
I'm not trying to justify a position, but rather, trying to further Rocky's point of the importance of gathering and understanding eyewitness accounts of such an atrocious time in our history. History, as does virtually every topic in this site, repeat itself and will continue to do so as long as people are willing to post.
If I'm missing the point of this discussion, then it's because I don't know what other contributions to offer. He stated that his intent was to call attention to an original witness account of a significant era in 20th century history, and I think that he has presented us with a powerful example through the perspective of a actual survivor. I am not seeking resolution to as to whether or not there are Holocaust deniers nor what, if any, rational there is to those beliefs. Simply stated, thank you Rocky for suggesting a good book!
This was ESPECIALLY useful because Rocky posted a link to a free download of the book, meaning it was instantly available for us to read.
Just finished reading the book. it was very easy to follow with a linear one dimensional storyline as well as it should be - a straightforward recounting of subjective events as they happened to one person. There was some, but not much, introspection during the telling of the tale because, for the most part, it wasn't neccessary; but rather the telling of the struggles for survival and mere existence. It's a tale that can only be fully understood by those who endured the horrors, but it's a tale we as humans should take heed.
Reviewing the flow of this thread is a good reminder for me of how easy it is for me to become sidetracked by the minutiae of some extraneous detail or detours. The topic was not about the denial of facts but of the horrors of human cruelty. Rather than chasing some of the tangential comments, I should have stuck to Rocky's stated intent, for that I apologize.
The book is a reminder that each individual has an important story to tell and that each story is as valid anyone else's, provided it is retold and understood from the viewpoint and perspective of the teller. It may not be accurate according to the actual facts, but the subjective opinions cannot be dismissed. It would be interesting to read an account from a guard's perspective of events as they happened. I'm sure most thought they were on the correct side and that they were advancing their cause for noble intentions. Hindsight has disputed that concept, but it's too easy to dismiss and be disgusted by their actions without understanding their motivations and thought processes.
No apology necessary. I appreciate your review of the book. And your thoughtfulness about the experiences of different persons who may have been involved.
Rocky, I took no pleasure in reading “Night” but that’s not to say I don’t appreciate you recommending this book – it is something that I believe is necessary to read. In the bigger picture – some of which was discussed here - the sheer enormity of the Jews murdered…the brutality…the inhumanity…is nothing short of absolutely mind-boggling – and to be honest, when my mind is overwhelmed like that, I sometimes have to stop thinking about it for a while.
But the book has a different and more profound effect. The story is told not from the panorama of the entire Holocaust – but from the perspective of just one 15 year old boy Elie Wiesel. At the start of the read, I had a bad habit of second-guessing or judging how he handled things mentally – so I had to intentionally set aside the comfortable zone of my perspective from a pleasant upbringing and carefree teenage experiences. I’m not saying I could then identify with Elie – but at least I stopped finding some fault in his reactions and thoughts. Maybe we all have a tendency to play Monday morning quarterback sometimes. The older I get and the more experiences I accumulate – I like to think I’d be able to handle some catastrophic event – but the bottom line is I just don’t know.
Oddly enough, I did not want to take a break from the book, like I mentioned above when thinking of the immensity of the Holocaust. Maybe it was simply a thing of Elie’s simple straightforward compelling and engaging narrative of events and me wondering how much more could he take and how he would handle it that so held my interest.
From the book a few things stick out to me: Things held dear – family, faith, dignity, belongings…a gold crown tooth or just the shoes on his feet…even life itself – were upended and devastated…Elie seeing children and babies thrown into the crematorium (I cannot erase that scene from my mind)… The disparity of human behavior – Elie seeing their tough and cruel guards engage in a friendly interaction with some local German girls as they marched the prisoners through the streets to a labor camp…They were forced to look upon other prisoners being hanged for some infraction. While seeing a young child hanged – someone behind Elie asked “where is God?” and Elie replied “there – hanging on the gallows”…At one camp, crammed into very small barracks it was literally people piled on top of one another – some suffocating under the blanket of bodies, dying overnight – Elie digging his nails into unknown faces to move them for an airway – that’s got to be one of the creepiest things that really got to me…another time laying silently in an upper bunk while an SS officer brutally beat his father in the bunk below – fearing he would also get beaten – even when his dying dad called out his name he would not answer – if that was me hearing my dad’s last word of calling out my name - that would haunt me for the rest of my life.
Tonto and I went to the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington D.C. in 2002 – and that was certainly a somber and sacred experience. Reading “Night” was certainly like that but also felt more emotionally immersive - one person’s story is truly a powerful thing.
In the fall of 1972, my only semester at Northern Arizona University, I still recall a Humanities professor discussing Man's Inhumanity to Man. Today, I would change it to Humankind's inhumanity to Humans, or something like that. But that's beside the point.
As a 17-year old, I had no clue at that time what the heck that was. Well, we had reading assignments but 48 years hence, I have a lot more insight than a freshman Humanities book could impart to a kid like I was then.
I very much appreciate your comment. Obviously thoughtful and sobering. Thank you.
Allen, you cancelled me the moment I recognized you worship a fictional character and you fake your secret prayer language magic trick. You don't get to lecture anyone about cancel culture.
The Holocaust happened. Six million Jews, plus millions of others, were systematically slaughtered.
BuT tHeRe WeReN't ThAt MaNy JeWs In GeRmAnY.
Statements like that are talking points among Holocaust deniers. They are not a part of the culture of educated people or even sincere people who admit they don't understand history.
There is a distinction between honest discussion about history and disingenuous "sea lion" tactics intended to bog down discussion rather than facilitate it.
BuT wHaT's A sEa LiOn?
Look it up.
I appreciate the comments regarding my earlier statement, but this one is going to stand. Zero, and I mean ZERO tolerance for Holocaust denial.
you been having a bad week/month Raf? you've gotten a bit prickly there Rafael lol...I don't care one bit whether you stopped believing in the Saviour of mankind and now brush off s.i.t. as 'glossolia'...what I DO care about is yourself and Rocky ATTACKING a poster (moi) in a very personal way !! please desist or I will ask the mods to step in
you been having a bad week/month Raf? you've gotten a bit prickly there Rafael lol...I don't care one bit whether you stopped believing in the Saviour of mankind and now brush off s.i.t. as 'glossolia'...what I DO care about is yourself and Rocky ATTACKING a poster (moi) in a very personal way !! please desist or I will ask the mods to step in
This is completely off-topic and baiting. No one is attacking you, Allan. If you want to discuss the book, feel free to do so. Otherwise, sit this one out.
"you been having a bad week/month Raf? you've gotten a bit prickly there Rafael lol..."
WordWolf: You lashed out with an insult, and he lashed back. If he'd just swung out like that first, I'd have said something.
Allan:
" I don't care one bit whether you stopped believing in the Saviour of mankind and now brush off s.i.t. as 'glossolia'.."
WordWolf: Actually, your posts indicated otherwise, and you're more dismissive of him now as a result- as if, when he posts facts, they don't count now because you and he disagree on religion and that changes the facts. BTW, "glossolia" isn't something any of us said, so you may have made that term up.
Allan: ."what I DO care about is yourself and Rocky ATTACKING a poster (moi) in a very personal way !! please desist or I will ask the mods to step in "
WordWolf: He hit me first- after I hit him back! Your insult was first, he insulted back. Other than that, he didn't "attack" you, and neither did Rocky. If you were consistent, you would just respond to Raf's shot as if it was nothing- since you think yours was nothing. Thinking your insult of him was fine but his insult of you wasn't isn't internally consistent, and there's terms for people who have one set of rules for themselves and a different, stricter set of rules for others.
This is completely off-topic and baiting. No one is attacking you, Allan. If you want to discuss the book, feel free to do so. Otherwise, sit this one out.
Usually, when any one of us can say "I do not really care much at all" about a subject, we post zero posts on the thread. It's rather obvious that Allan's got a reason to post on this thread that he really DOES care about- and it's an odious enough reason that he won't come clean and say what it is. We're getting posts by insinuation, by "innocent questions", cheap shots and other things that are used to distract from a thread's topic or change the subject.
you been having a bad week/month Raf? you've gotten a bit prickly there Rafael lol...I don't care one bit whether you stopped believing in the Saviour of mankind and now brush off s.i.t. as 'glossolia'...what I DO care about is yourself and Rocky ATTACKING a poster (moi) in a very personal way !! please desist or I will ask the mods to step in
WOW! Talk about not knowing about that which you think you're talking.
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Twinky
There is a small number of survivors still alive, and some have written books. Others have died in the last decade or two. There's talk of 6 million people of Jewish extraction. There are also
waysider
Blaming devil spirits for everything was like the Easy Button in Way World. Got cancer?...devil spirits. Depression?... devil spirits. Substance abuse?...devil spirits. . And if you don't understand
WordWolf
We know a loaded question from an "innocent" one.
waysider
I totally agree with this sentiment. The thing is, though, over the years it's been talked about here on GSC until the cows came home and left again. Almost any conversation you might find interesting has been preserved in the threads that WW was kind enough to provide links to. Discussing it again is like proving the Pythagorean Theorem over and over and over again before you set out on a math project. Anyhow, the original subject, if I understand correctly, was a discussion of the referenced book. This has devolved into a meta discussion.
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Twinky
Hmm, @Allan
A handful of Jews also managed to escape to Australia, because that country was slow and reluctant to accept what was staring it in the face.
"....By the outbreak of World War II in September 1939, more than 7,000 Jewish refugees [who classed as "enemy aliens"] had arrived in Australia....Altogether, 8,200 Jewish refugees reached Australia between 1933 and 1945..." The document doesn't say where these people came from, whether Germany, Austria, Poland, Holland or any other country.
Extract from this short document: https://www.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Microsoft Word - 5787.pdf
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Rocky
Hi Flow7,
Conceptually, I agree with your sentiment. However, like waysider explained it's already been hashed out over and over and over and over... and over again here.
Practically speaking, there is no possibility that on this message board, we're going to successfully expand discussion and overall understanding of this very significant and solemn account of man's inhumanity to man.
As Allan''s "contributions" have already demonstrated, it IS possible for one person in a small group to obscure and distract away from any constructive discussion of the subject.
That's the gist of the why for Raf's declaration about Holocaust denial.
As I mentioned earlier, if people want to explore and challenge the detail of Holocaust research the Wikipedia article on the subject has 461 notes and a bibliography of roughly 100 articles/books written by scholars of the era. That's where Allan can deny and challenge to his heart's content without distracting from the topic of this thread -- One person's experience in the middle of the hell that actually took place.
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Flow7
I understand that this and almost every topic has been discussed on GSC; this particular one ad infinitum for those who have been around for a long time. I'm also aware that almost every discussion with differing opinions usually devolves into a discussion about Hitler and/or the Holocaust and that this happens not only here, but in many conversations every where. This particular topic happens to be about that very thing. But, I'm also aware that the Pythagorean theorem is taught in schools throughout the world every year because the information, while ubiquitous, is certainly not intuitive. Given our association with a cult (and some may still be in denial about that) it may be beneficial to occasionally beat the already dead horse. You may never know who may be lurking in the shadows.
I chose to respond because Rocky's topic is indeed important and merits full consideration. Eyewitnesses are becoming fewer each year and their testimony will be archived by those responsible for the preservation of historical "facts". As we know historical accuracy may not always be accurate and many opinions are spread and cultivated by word of mouth and believed simply because a friend told them it was so. Too many people are willing to "research " a topic based upon preconceived (mis)conceptions and fail to recognize differing relevant facts.
GSC is one of the few places that allows respectful dissent and allows the thread to continue until it dies a natural death of boredom and redundancy. That's a good thing. While most of the ideas, viewpoints, opinions and even pathos can be well anticipated by the actual few posters directly involved in the discussions, there may be some who are not at all familiar with this group. And you've got to admit that the title of this thread doesn't actually apply to a typical "soup question".
All that being said, I appreciate the wisdom, intellect, and dedication of many of the posters here who continue to expose the dark underbelly of the beast that was The Way. Light does expose the darkness but only while the light remains shining.
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Allan
Rocky can cry wolf all he wants...the fact is HE brought the topic up. He STARTED THE THREAD by posting the book on the holocaust !! I happened to actually read the first dozen or so pages like he encouraged people to do and I asked a simple question about whether the statement from the AUTHOR OF THE BOOK was correct in noting that there were only 300, 000 Jews in Germany at the time of the persecution. It was a simple question because I was just not that interested in poring through a mountain of articles to add up where the other 5,634,000 victims came from. Sorry but I'm just not that terribly interested whether it was 300,000 or 6,000,000...It's just not 'relevant' to me...the same way 60,000 people around the world died last night from car wrecks, murders, disease and old age whilst you and I were sleeping...I don't lose sleep over it and I'll pretty much guarantee you don't either...because it is not RELEVANT to us (unless it was someone we KNOW). Now if the holocaust is 'relevant' to you, I can understand why the dandruff got flying in all directions and the gnashing of the falsies came flying out of the mouth :)
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WordWolf
We have gotten into this MORE THAN 5 times. I only linked 5 previous discussions on the subject. The GSC is about twi and its spinoffs, NOT Holocaust denial. If it WAS, then obviously we'd keep circling the same points a lot more. Since the Holocaust is completely inrelated to twi- except where people strongly pro-vpw all just HAPPEN to also deny the Holocaust as vpw and lcm did- it is senseless to FOREVER circle the SAME IRRELEVANT discussions, with a handful of people hiding from actual evidence and quoting from tinfoil hat conspiracy mongers. There has to be a point where even we acknowledge that even introducing more evidence is useless, because the conspiracy nuts here were never convinced with actual evidence, so they're COMFORTABLE with contradicting the existing evidence. A handful of twi kids met an actual Holocaust survivor as a GUEST SPEAKER at school. They heckled her, called her a liar, and made her cry.
It's the same mindset that others bring to the table, and they're more about derailing the discussion than actually serious discussions about the evidence.
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WordWolf
We know a loaded question from an "innocent" one.
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WordWolf
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WordWolf
If Allan's question was really as innocent as he claimed, he would have just stopped here, when T-Bpne answered him.
Allan's question was- where did 6 million Jews come from if there were less than a million in Nazi Germany?
T-Bone quoted Wikipedia- ALL OVER EUROPE. Germany rolled into Austria, Poland, France......
Seriously, it's EASY to study history online, if one actually cares.
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Allan
As I've already stated "I do not really care much at all" ...I never bothered to read Ol Vics recommended book on 'the myth of the six million' because ...I don't really care.....what I CARE about is yourself, Raf and Rocky getting semi- hysterical because I asked a question with ABSOLUTELY NO HIDDEN MOTIVE...no hidden motive because again...I don't really care ! and all I got was accusations, criticism and dismissed as a 'nutter' and a 'tin foil hatter'....mate I exited twi in a lot less time than any of you three so whose the 'nutter' and 'tin foil hat wearers' ??
You'd do well by abiding by the three fingers pointing back saying.
You three left a 'hate' group behind, obviously the stench of it's characteristics still cling somewhat.
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Rocky
If you're "not interested" in the topic, then I would welcome you to stop participating on the thread. Thank you.
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Flow7
This topic certainly is important regarding the Holocaust because Rocky chose to post it in the OPEN forum. I'm over halfway through the book and very much appreciate his (Rocky's) suggestion to read it. Where the subject matter intersects with the interests of this group - in my opinion - is that it reflects some of the varying mindsets of our shared past and how we have progressed in the evolution of our thinking process.
I'm not trying to justify a position, but rather, trying to further Rocky's point of the importance of gathering and understanding eyewitness accounts of such an atrocious time in our history. History, as does virtually every topic in this site, repeat itself and will continue to do so as long as people are willing to post.
If I'm missing the point of this discussion, then it's because I don't know what other contributions to offer. He stated that his intent was to call attention to an original witness account of a significant era in 20th century history, and I think that he has presented us with a powerful example through the perspective of a actual survivor. I am not seeking resolution to as to whether or not there are Holocaust deniers nor what, if any, rational there is to those beliefs. Simply stated, thank you Rocky for suggesting a good book!
Edited by Flow7typos
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Rocky
Nope, Flow7, you got the point exactly. Thank you.
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Flow7
Just finished reading the book. it was very easy to follow with a linear one dimensional storyline as well as it should be - a straightforward recounting of subjective events as they happened to one person. There was some, but not much, introspection during the telling of the tale because, for the most part, it wasn't neccessary; but rather the telling of the struggles for survival and mere existence. It's a tale that can only be fully understood by those who endured the horrors, but it's a tale we as humans should take heed.
Reviewing the flow of this thread is a good reminder for me of how easy it is for me to become sidetracked by the minutiae of some extraneous detail or detours. The topic was not about the denial of facts but of the horrors of human cruelty. Rather than chasing some of the tangential comments, I should have stuck to Rocky's stated intent, for that I apologize.
The book is a reminder that each individual has an important story to tell and that each story is as valid anyone elses, provided it is retold and understood from the viewpoint and perspective of the teller. It may not be accurate according to the actual facts, but the subjective opinions cannot be dismissed. It would be interesting to read an account from a guard's perspective of events as they happened. I'm sure most thought they were on the correct side and that they were advancing their cause for noble intentions. Hindsight has disputed that concept, but it's to easy to dismiss and be disgusted by their actions without understanding their motivations and thought processes.
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WordWolf
This was ESPECIALLY useful because Rocky posted a link to a free download of the book, meaning it was instantly available for us to read.
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Rocky
No apology necessary. I appreciate your review of the book. And your thoughtfulness about the experiences of different persons who may have been involved.
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T-Bone
Rocky, I took no pleasure in reading “Night” but that’s not to say I don’t appreciate you recommending this book – it is something that I believe is necessary to read. In the bigger picture – some of which was discussed here - the sheer enormity of the Jews murdered…the brutality…the inhumanity…is nothing short of absolutely mind-boggling – and to be honest, when my mind is overwhelmed like that, I sometimes have to stop thinking about it for a while.
But the book has a different and more profound effect. The story is told not from the panorama of the entire Holocaust – but from the perspective of just one 15 year old boy Elie Wiesel. At the start of the read, I had a bad habit of second-guessing or judging how he handled things mentally – so I had to intentionally set aside the comfortable zone of my perspective from a pleasant upbringing and carefree teenage experiences. I’m not saying I could then identify with Elie – but at least I stopped finding some fault in his reactions and thoughts. Maybe we all have a tendency to play Monday morning quarterback sometimes. The older I get and the more experiences I accumulate – I like to think I’d be able to handle some catastrophic event – but the bottom line is I just don’t know.
Oddly enough, I did not want to take a break from the book, like I mentioned above when thinking of the immensity of the Holocaust. Maybe it was simply a thing of Elie’s simple straightforward compelling and engaging narrative of events and me wondering how much more could he take and how he would handle it that so held my interest.
From the book a few things stick out to me: Things held dear – family, faith, dignity, belongings…a gold crown tooth or just the shoes on his feet…even life itself – were upended and devastated…Elie seeing children and babies thrown into the crematorium (I cannot erase that scene from my mind)… The disparity of human behavior – Elie seeing their tough and cruel guards engage in a friendly interaction with some local German girls as they marched the prisoners through the streets to a labor camp…They were forced to look upon other prisoners being hanged for some infraction. While seeing a young child hanged – someone behind Elie asked “where is God?” and Elie replied “there – hanging on the gallows”…At one camp, crammed into very small barracks it was literally people piled on top of one another – some suffocating under the blanket of bodies, dying overnight – Elie digging his nails into unknown faces to move them for an airway – that’s got to be one of the creepiest things that really got to me…another time laying silently in an upper bunk while an SS officer brutally beat his father in the bunk below – fearing he would also get beaten – even when his dying dad called out his name he would not answer – if that was me hearing my dad’s last word of calling out my name - that would haunt me for the rest of my life.
Tonto and I went to the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington D.C. in 2002 – and that was certainly a somber and sacred experience. Reading “Night” was certainly like that but also felt more emotionally immersive - one person’s story is truly a powerful thing.
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Rocky
Indeed, T-Bone Night is not pleasure reading.
Edited by RockyIn the fall of 1972, my only semester at Northern Arizona University, I still recall a Humanities professor discussing Man's Inhumanity to Man. Today, I would change it to Humankind's inhumanity to Humans, or something like that. But that's beside the point.
As a 17-year old, I had no clue at that time what the heck that was. Well, we had reading assignments but 48 years hence, I have a lot more insight than a freshman Humanities book could impart to a kid like I was then.
I very much appreciate your comment. Obviously thoughtful and sobering. Thank you.
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Raf
OoH yOu ArE pArT pF cAnCeL CuLtUrE.
Allen, you cancelled me the moment I recognized you worship a fictional character and you fake your secret prayer language magic trick. You don't get to lecture anyone about cancel culture.
The Holocaust happened. Six million Jews, plus millions of others, were systematically slaughtered.
BuT tHeRe WeReN't ThAt MaNy JeWs In GeRmAnY.
Statements like that are talking points among Holocaust deniers. They are not a part of the culture of educated people or even sincere people who admit they don't understand history.
There is a distinction between honest discussion about history and disingenuous "sea lion" tactics intended to bog down discussion rather than facilitate it.
BuT wHaT's A sEa LiOn?
Look it up.
I appreciate the comments regarding my earlier statement, but this one is going to stand. Zero, and I mean ZERO tolerance for Holocaust denial.
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Allan
you been having a bad week/month Raf? you've gotten a bit prickly there Rafael lol...I don't care one bit whether you stopped believing in the Saviour of mankind and now brush off s.i.t. as 'glossolia'...what I DO care about is yourself and Rocky ATTACKING a poster (moi) in a very personal way !! please desist or I will ask the mods to step in
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waysider
This is completely off-topic and baiting. No one is attacking you, Allan. If you want to discuss the book, feel free to do so. Otherwise, sit this one out.
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WordWolf
"you been having a bad week/month Raf? you've gotten a bit prickly there Rafael lol..."
WordWolf: You lashed out with an insult, and he lashed back. If he'd just swung out like that first, I'd have said something.
Allan:
" I don't care one bit whether you stopped believing in the Saviour of mankind and now brush off s.i.t. as 'glossolia'.."
WordWolf: Actually, your posts indicated otherwise, and you're more dismissive of him now as a result- as if, when he posts facts, they don't count now because you and he disagree on religion and that changes the facts. BTW, "glossolia" isn't something any of us said, so you may have made that term up.
Allan: ."what I DO care about is yourself and Rocky ATTACKING a poster (moi) in a very personal way !! please desist or I will ask the mods to step in "
WordWolf: He hit me first- after I hit him back! Your insult was first, he insulted back. Other than that, he didn't "attack" you, and neither did Rocky. If you were consistent, you would just respond to Raf's shot as if it was nothing- since you think yours was nothing. Thinking your insult of him was fine but his insult of you wasn't isn't internally consistent, and there's terms for people who have one set of rules for themselves and a different, stricter set of rules for others.
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WordWolf
Usually, when any one of us can say "I do not really care much at all" about a subject, we post zero posts on the thread. It's rather obvious that Allan's got a reason to post on this thread that he really DOES care about- and it's an odious enough reason that he won't come clean and say what it is. We're getting posts by insinuation, by "innocent questions", cheap shots and other things that are used to distract from a thread's topic or change the subject.
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Rocky
WOW! Talk about not knowing about that which you think you're talking.
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