There is a small number of survivors still alive, and some have written books. Others have died in the last decade or two.
There's talk of 6 million people of Jewish extraction. There are also millions more of other groups: gypsies, darker skinned people, homosexuals, disabled people - and intellectuals. Some estimate these others at about 4 million; they're often completely overlooked. Even now, the true numbers murdered by the regime are unknown.
For this reason, I'm very alarmed when any bunch of people start demonizing any other group. It starts somewhere. Let's demonize ... hmm, Muslims. Yeah, they look different. Let's focus blame for all our problems on them, they're different. NO!!!!! Some are bad people and/or extremists. Most are not. Deal with the hate, inequality, privilege, issues. (I won't say any more, or this could become too political, and my intent is not that but to get people to examine their own prejudices.)
And go and visit some of the cities in Europe that were emptied of their Jewish populations. See where they were forced to live, work. See the lists of names in the remains of synagogues; and the records in other locations.
I only have to look around at the suffering in the world, the inspired acts of depravity, the insatiable thirst for unspeakable acts, the 'inhumanity' of humanity WITHOUT even having to believe in the Bible to recognize there is indeed some type of evil, malignant force....and by default there must be a countering love, wisdom, pureness, innocence. When I read THE Word of God it lays it out for me.
Reading Rocky's post on the new version of the Jewish witness of the Holocaust book, the first few pages began to answer questions I have had for years, such as WHY did the Jews not take heed of the warnings to them (some of which had to have been Divine interference and miracle working) to get out...long story short...they did not heed the warnings...they ridiculed and lampooned the messenger(s)...man does that sound familiar !!
Then, when it was too late and they were on their way to the gas chambers why did 99% of them just walk there like lambs to the slaughter without fighting back ? ? I'm beginning to wonder if their belief and practising of the 'Kabbalah', mysticism and being in a 'spiritual slumber' played a big part...carrying on reading it, GREAT READ, thanks again Rocky (star) :)
NEVER jump IMMEDIATELY to the conclusion that something is supernatural. Examine the more common, more mundane reasons FIRST. If they don't work, then you can consider that among the possibilities
Why wouldn't the Jews have taken heed and flee Germany, etc?
1) A lot of them DID. There's a few big cities in the world who got a surge of Jewish immigrants at that time.
2) Hindsight is 20/20. Honestly, how likely would you consider the idea that someone would come to power over your country, take it over, declare you and yours ILLEGAL and order everyone to round you up and then confiscate your possessions? I'm sure a number of them thought that was too crazy to happen.
3) Lots of non-Jews were rounded up, most of whom had no idea they were on the rounding-up list. I met one, once. I still don't know why he was ever rounded up, but they grabbed him, imprisoned him, and so on. Yes, he had the number tattoo.
4) Why didn't they fight on the way to the gas chambers? Be thankful you don't know why! These are people whose lives were destroyed, who were placed in a prison having never committed a crime,. starved, watched their friends executed or killed in lab experiments, and led everywhere by threat of violence. They were likely in shock as well as suffering from malnutrition. It's hard to THINK, much less FIGHT, under those conditions. Should they have just shuffled forward and gotten shot rather than walked into the chambers? Possibly. Hard to come to that conclusion under the circumstances.
Then again, it's "human nature" to try to survive. They may not have understood that they were being rounded up specifically to be killed- especially since they hadn't been killed yet.
I know NOTHING about their suffering. I can work it out on paper, but that's nothing compared to actually living it.
I hope those were meant as honest questions and not just an attempt to Monday-morning quarterback, because I answered them with that in mind.
I only have to look around at the suffering in the world, the inspired acts of depravity, the insatiable thirst for unspeakable acts, the 'inhumanity' of humanity WITHOUT even having to believe in the Bible to recognize there is indeed some type of evil, malignant force....
and by default there must be a countering love, wisdom, pureness, innocence. When I read THE Word of God it lays it out for me.
Reading Rocky's post on the new version of the Jewish witness of the Holocaust book, the first few pages began to answer questions I have had for years,
such as WHY did the Jews not take heed of the warnings to them (some of which had to have been Divine interference and miracle working) to get out...long story short...they did not heed the warnings...they ridiculed and lampooned the messenger(s)...man does that sound familiar !!
Then, when it was too late and they were on their way to the gas chambers why did 99% of them just walk there like lambs to the slaughter without fighting back ? ?
I'm beginning to wonder if their belief and practising of the 'Kabbalah', mysticism and being in a 'spiritual slumber' played a big part...carrying on reading it, GREAT READ, thanks again Rocky (star) :)
I tend to be very skeptical of attempts to spiritualize a situation past or present. It seems to me that there is usually an assumption that undergirds these attempts – the assumption being that this outlook dubbed “spiritual” is the real, true or correct perspective – and I think this will always obfuscate the matter…Even though the Bible does mention spiritual entities (God, Satan, angels, demons) when it comes to attributing evil to a responsible party – I think Jesus’ words were plain and clear on this:
18 “But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20 These are what defile a person; but eating with unwashed hands does not defile them.”…Matthew 15: 18-20 NIV
6 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come!”...Matthew 18:6, 7 NIV
The other thing I wanted to say about your post is that it seems to find fault with or blame the victim. Maybe that’s not what you meant.
Since your ideas spanned two forums I brought this quote over from the Atheists FAQ forum, to add one more thing that’s wrong about “spiritualizing” events.
13 hours ago, Allan said:
Hey WW...thanks for your input, however if I want to surmise there was a 'spiritual' reason for a lot that went on I presume I'm allowed to ?? You can look at it from your angle...I am posting my view after READING the first dozen pages and yes, the actual author said they WERE WARNED in a 'miraculous way'. They're the actual author so I'm assuming they're not making it up.! Perhaps and my train of thought was "if the author and his WHOLE town of Jews were warned...perhaps they were not the only ones."
As for not realising what was going on at the time, I would have thought coming from you that is a tad short sighted considering what is still going on in the USA at the present time. Is what is happening right now in the USA (in particular) a 'spiritual' event or just a bunch of legit angry protesters ??
Without getting into a lot of politics here – if you were referencing the recent protestors and the Black Lives Matter movement which actually began several years ago – to suggest there is something spiritual behind it is to trivialize it all (trivialize = make it seem less important, less significant, or less complex than it really is). And as I said above it tends to obfuscate the matter (obfuscate = render obscure, unclear, or unintelligible) which means it prevents any meaningful conversation from taking place.
actually after looking at actual footage of the BEHAVIOR of a number of the protesters especially the ones yelling and screaming IN THE FACES of people, including police officers and the 'building up' of boldness and aggressiveness when more and more protesters surround ONE individual that has pi$$ed them off...I believe it is a very pertinent question. As one who believes those same mob spirits that incited the crowd towards Jesus have not been taking an extended vacation in Key Largo or some such place, smoking 50 cent cigars and congratulating each other on a job well done 2000 years ago, I believe they are very much active at present.
actually after looking at actual footage of the BEHAVIOR of a number of the protesters especially the ones yelling and screaming IN THE FACES of people, including police officers and the 'building up' of boldness and aggressiveness when more and more protesters surround ONE individual that has pi$$ed them off...I believe it is a very pertinent question. As one who believes those same mob spirits that incited the crowd towards Jesus have not been taking an extended vacation in Key Largo or some such place, smoking 50 cent cigars and congratulating each other on a job well done 2000 years ago, I believe they are very much active at present.
It also moves us very far into the realm of political discussion, which I clearly intended to avoid.
Perhaps it's worth noting that NONE of us is or will be in a position to parse your question or possible answers thereto Allan.
It may very well be a pertinent question for personal reflection, but I just don't see how it could foster any kind of meaningful discussion on this thread.
Blaming devil spirits for everything was like the Easy Button in Way World. Got cancer?...devil spirits. Depression?... devil spirits. Substance abuse?...devil spirits. . And if you don't understand something... just S.I.T. more. This need for easy answers was probably a big draw for people who were searching for meaning, myself included. But guess what, life is complex and sometimes the answers are complicated. Other times, there simply aren't any answers. Life is an endless search for answers but sometimes that's what makes the journey so exciting and rewarding. Never stop searching and questioning.
O.k. so none of you 'believe' anymore, that's fine, I do and I'm giving my perspective from a biblical view point...all good, your points (although mooted) are noted :)
Blaming devil spirits for everything was like the Easy Button in Way World. Got cancer?...devil spirits. Depression?... devil spirits. Substance abuse?...devil spirits. . And if you don't understand something... just S.I.T. more. This need for easy answers was probably a big draw for people who were searching for meaning, myself included. But guess what, life is complex and sometimes the answers are complicated. Other times, there simply aren't any answers. Life is an endless search for answers but sometimes that's what makes the journey so exciting and rewarding. Never stop searching and questioning.
Pretty sure Jesus Christ came to 'uncomplicate life'...if you call that 'simplistic viewing' or an 'easy button' that's your prerogative...
O.k. so none of you 'believe' anymore, that's fine, I do and I'm giving my perspective from a biblical view point...all good, your points (although mooted) are noted :)
A simple statement would have sufficed rather than a full-scale dive into spiritual speculation. That's independent of whether anyone believes anything.
actually after looking at actual footage of the BEHAVIOR of a number of the protesters especially the ones yelling and screaming IN THE FACES of people, including police officers and the 'building up' of boldness and aggressiveness when more and more protesters surround ONE individual that has pi$$ed them off...I believe it is a very pertinent question. As one who believes those same mob spirits that incited the crowd towards Jesus have not been taking an extended vacation in Key Largo or some such place, smoking 50 cent cigars and congratulating each other on a job well done 2000 years ago, I believe they are very much active at present.
O.k. so none of you 'believe' anymore, that's fine, I do and I'm giving my perspective from a biblical view point...all good, your points (although mooted) are noted :)
We didn't say that. In my case, my "faith" is as strong as it ever was, if not stronger. It's not dependent upon slapping a label on incidents rather than trying to understand them. In fact, I consider slapping a label of "supernatural" on all sorts of mundane things both
A) cheapens the title, making the actual "supernatural" sound as mundane as finding a good parking space, and
B) does a disservice to actual "supernatural" things by lumping them into things easily provable as mundane
But it sure makes for EASY answers to slap labels on things. Don't like something? It's "spiritually dark." Disagree with someone? They are "spiritually dark" or "don't 'believe' anymore", etc.
To bring us partially back on-topic...
I don't know if anything supernatural was actually involved with the Third Reich and HItler's rise to power. I DO know that all the steps could easily have been mundane, if a "perfect storm" of hatred, bigotry and ignorance. To me, that's a bit scarier than if it HAD to be supernatural. A little work studying history would go a long way in learning this.
We didn't say that. In my case, my "faith" is as strong as it ever was, if not stronger. It's not dependent upon slapping a label on incidents rather than trying to understand them. In fact, I consider slapping a label of "supernatural" on all sorts of mundane things both
A) cheapens the title, making the actual "supernatural" sound as mundane as finding a good parking space, and
B) does a disservice to actual "supernatural" things by lumping them into things easily provable as mundane
But it sure makes for EASY answers to slap labels on things. Don't like something? It's "spiritually dark." Disagree with someone? They are "spiritually dark" or "don't 'believe' anymore", etc.
To bring us partially back on-topic...
I don't know if anything supernatural was actually involved with the Third Reich and HItler's rise to power. I DO know that all the steps could easily have been mundane, if a "perfect storm" of hatred, bigotry and ignorance. To me, that's a bit scarier than if it HAD to be supernatural. A little work studying history would go a long way in learning this.
WW, please don't engage Allan on the subject. But yes, I appreciate your effort to bring us back to discussion of the book.
Ok folks, the book Rocky posted about does not make reference to current events. Keep the discussion on the book and its events. Delving into, or relating the book to, current events will be based on conjecture and will be biased by one's political viewpoints. Political discussion is not allowed here at GSC, further posts in that vein will be deleted. STOP!
Discuss the book and what is in it. The author does not relate their experience to current events, and you won't do it here either. We will not discuss whether it was the police who have choked or shot the breath out of living souls or whether it is the protestors (BLM, Covid or any others) who have spirits. Nor will we discuss whether those spirits be God, Satan, angels or demons. Everyone has a view and those views grow political. You are of course free to have your own opinion on things, but reflect on those at home.
The other thing I wanted to say about your post is that it seems to find fault with or blame the victim. Maybe that’s not what you meant.
Allen was pointing out there were signs indicating Jews should take heed and flee Germany. WW indicated some did heed the warnings and left Germany.
Of course, the Germans were ultimately responsible for what they did to the jews, and the Jews should not ultimately be blamed for Germany’s actions. But if you can see something bad it is going to happen, it is in your best interest to avoid it.
For example, if you are driving your car, and see an approaching automobile is exceeding the speed limit, and will blow through the existing stop sign hitting you, it is in your best interest to stop so you will not be hit. You could conclude you have the right of way, and do nothing, resulting in your car being hit, and passengers being injured or killed. You are well within your lawful rights to let the car hit you because the law is on your side. You would be dead right.
True, the victim(s) would be in the right to not stop, and allow the offending driver to hit them. But one could argue, had the victims heeded the warning, they would be alive today. Using your logic, it would be improper to even consider the victims could have avoided the accident.
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Twinky
There is a small number of survivors still alive, and some have written books. Others have died in the last decade or two. There's talk of 6 million people of Jewish extraction. There are also
waysider
Blaming devil spirits for everything was like the Easy Button in Way World. Got cancer?...devil spirits. Depression?... devil spirits. Substance abuse?...devil spirits. . And if you don't understand
WordWolf
We know a loaded question from an "innocent" one.
Twinky
There is a small number of survivors still alive, and some have written books. Others have died in the last decade or two.
There's talk of 6 million people of Jewish extraction. There are also millions more of other groups: gypsies, darker skinned people, homosexuals, disabled people - and intellectuals. Some estimate these others at about 4 million; they're often completely overlooked. Even now, the true numbers murdered by the regime are unknown.
For this reason, I'm very alarmed when any bunch of people start demonizing any other group. It starts somewhere. Let's demonize ... hmm, Muslims. Yeah, they look different. Let's focus blame for all our problems on them, they're different. NO!!!!! Some are bad people and/or extremists. Most are not. Deal with the hate, inequality, privilege, issues. (I won't say any more, or this could become too political, and my intent is not that but to get people to examine their own prejudices.)
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Twinky
And go and visit some of the cities in Europe that were emptied of their Jewish populations. See where they were forced to live, work. See the lists of names in the remains of synagogues; and the records in other locations.
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Allan
I only have to look around at the suffering in the world, the inspired acts of depravity, the insatiable thirst for unspeakable acts, the 'inhumanity' of humanity WITHOUT even having to believe in the Bible to recognize there is indeed some type of evil, malignant force....and by default there must be a countering love, wisdom, pureness, innocence. When I read THE Word of God it lays it out for me.
Reading Rocky's post on the new version of the Jewish witness of the Holocaust book, the first few pages began to answer questions I have had for years, such as WHY did the Jews not take heed of the warnings to them (some of which had to have been Divine interference and miracle working) to get out...long story short...they did not heed the warnings...they ridiculed and lampooned the messenger(s)...man does that sound familiar !!
Then, when it was too late and they were on their way to the gas chambers why did 99% of them just walk there like lambs to the slaughter without fighting back ? ? I'm beginning to wonder if their belief and practising of the 'Kabbalah', mysticism and being in a 'spiritual slumber' played a big part...carrying on reading it, GREAT READ, thanks again Rocky (star) :)
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WordWolf
*sigh*
NEVER jump IMMEDIATELY to the conclusion that something is supernatural. Examine the more common, more mundane reasons FIRST. If they don't work, then you can consider that among the possibilities
Why wouldn't the Jews have taken heed and flee Germany, etc?
1) A lot of them DID. There's a few big cities in the world who got a surge of Jewish immigrants at that time.
2) Hindsight is 20/20. Honestly, how likely would you consider the idea that someone would come to power over your country, take it over, declare you and yours ILLEGAL and order everyone to round you up and then confiscate your possessions? I'm sure a number of them thought that was too crazy to happen.
3) Lots of non-Jews were rounded up, most of whom had no idea they were on the rounding-up list. I met one, once. I still don't know why he was ever rounded up, but they grabbed him, imprisoned him, and so on. Yes, he had the number tattoo.
4) Why didn't they fight on the way to the gas chambers? Be thankful you don't know why! These are people whose lives were destroyed, who were placed in a prison having never committed a crime,. starved, watched their friends executed or killed in lab experiments, and led everywhere by threat of violence. They were likely in shock as well as suffering from malnutrition. It's hard to THINK, much less FIGHT, under those conditions. Should they have just shuffled forward and gotten shot rather than walked into the chambers? Possibly. Hard to come to that conclusion under the circumstances.
Then again, it's "human nature" to try to survive. They may not have understood that they were being rounded up specifically to be killed- especially since they hadn't been killed yet.
I know NOTHING about their suffering. I can work it out on paper, but that's nothing compared to actually living it.
I hope those were meant as honest questions and not just an attempt to Monday-morning quarterback, because I answered them with that in mind.
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T-Bone
I tend to be very skeptical of attempts to spiritualize a situation past or present. It seems to me that there is usually an assumption that undergirds these attempts – the assumption being that this outlook dubbed “spiritual” is the real, true or correct perspective – and I think this will always obfuscate the matter…Even though the Bible does mention spiritual entities (God, Satan, angels, demons) when it comes to attributing evil to a responsible party – I think Jesus’ words were plain and clear on this:
18 “But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20 These are what defile a person; but eating with unwashed hands does not defile them.”…Matthew 15: 18-20 NIV
6 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come!”...Matthew 18:6, 7 NIV
The other thing I wanted to say about your post is that it seems to find fault with or blame the victim. Maybe that’s not what you meant.
Since your ideas spanned two forums I brought this quote over from the Atheists FAQ forum, to add one more thing that’s wrong about “spiritualizing” events.
Without getting into a lot of politics here – if you were referencing the recent protestors and the Black Lives Matter movement which actually began several years ago – to suggest there is something spiritual behind it is to trivialize it all (trivialize = make it seem less important, less significant, or less complex than it really is). And as I said above it tends to obfuscate the matter (obfuscate = render obscure, unclear, or unintelligible) which means it prevents any meaningful conversation from taking place.
Edited by T-Bonetypos & formatting
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Allan
One question...when the 'mob' was screaming out "crucify him, crucify him"...was it spiritual or merely "out of their mouths their heart speaks" ??
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T-Bone
you present a false dilemma to further your opinion.
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Allan
actually after looking at actual footage of the BEHAVIOR of a number of the protesters especially the ones yelling and screaming IN THE FACES of people, including police officers and the 'building up' of boldness and aggressiveness when more and more protesters surround ONE individual that has pi$$ed them off...I believe it is a very pertinent question. As one who believes those same mob spirits that incited the crowd towards Jesus have not been taking an extended vacation in Key Largo or some such place, smoking 50 cent cigars and congratulating each other on a job well done 2000 years ago, I believe they are very much active at present.
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Rocky
It also moves us very far into the realm of political discussion, which I clearly intended to avoid.
Edited by RockyLet's PLEASE not go there.
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Rocky
Perhaps it's worth noting that NONE of us is or will be in a position to parse your question or possible answers thereto Allan.
It may very well be a pertinent question for personal reflection, but I just don't see how it could foster any kind of meaningful discussion on this thread.
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waysider
Blaming devil spirits for everything was like the Easy Button in Way World. Got cancer?...devil spirits. Depression?... devil spirits. Substance abuse?...devil spirits. . And if you don't understand something... just S.I.T. more. This need for easy answers was probably a big draw for people who were searching for meaning, myself included. But guess what, life is complex and sometimes the answers are complicated. Other times, there simply aren't any answers. Life is an endless search for answers but sometimes that's what makes the journey so exciting and rewarding. Never stop searching and questioning.
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Raf
Now I get the cross posting reference. Thanks WW.
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Allan
O.k. so none of you 'believe' anymore, that's fine, I do and I'm giving my perspective from a biblical view point...all good, your points (although mooted) are noted :)
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Allan
Pretty sure Jesus Christ came to 'uncomplicate life'...if you call that 'simplistic viewing' or an 'easy button' that's your prerogative...
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Rocky
A simple statement would have sufficed rather than a full-scale dive into spiritual speculation. That's independent of whether anyone believes anything.
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Rocky
This isn't necessary in order to appreciate the book by Elie Weisel as a historical document.
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Rocky
This isn't related to any discussion of the book.
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Raf
You're assuming an interest in history rather than an interest on labeling BLM demonic.
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Rocky
Which is SO
from the discussion of the book which is the subject of this thread.
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WordWolf
We didn't say that. In my case, my "faith" is as strong as it ever was, if not stronger. It's not dependent upon slapping a label on incidents rather than trying to understand them. In fact, I consider slapping a label of "supernatural" on all sorts of mundane things both
A) cheapens the title, making the actual "supernatural" sound as mundane as finding a good parking space, and
B) does a disservice to actual "supernatural" things by lumping them into things easily provable as mundane
But it sure makes for EASY answers to slap labels on things. Don't like something? It's "spiritually dark." Disagree with someone? They are "spiritually dark" or "don't 'believe' anymore", etc.
To bring us partially back on-topic...
I don't know if anything supernatural was actually involved with the Third Reich and HItler's rise to power. I DO know that all the steps could easily have been mundane, if a "perfect storm" of hatred, bigotry and ignorance. To me, that's a bit scarier than if it HAD to be supernatural. A little work studying history would go a long way in learning this.
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Rocky
WW, please don't engage Allan on the
subject. But yes, I appreciate your effort to bring us back to discussion of the book.
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Modgellan
Ok folks, the book Rocky posted about does not make reference to current events. Keep the discussion on the book and its events. Delving into, or relating the book to, current events will be based on conjecture and will be biased by one's political viewpoints. Political discussion is not allowed here at GSC, further posts in that vein will be deleted. STOP!
Discuss the book and what is in it. The author does not relate their experience to current events, and you won't do it here either. We will not discuss whether it was the police who have choked or shot the breath out of living souls or whether it is the protestors (BLM, Covid or any others) who have spirits. Nor will we discuss whether those spirits be God, Satan, angels or demons. Everyone has a view and those views grow political. You are of course free to have your own opinion on things, but reflect on those at home.
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Stayed Too Long
Allen was pointing out there were signs indicating Jews should take heed and flee Germany. WW indicated some did heed the warnings and left Germany.
Of course, the Germans were ultimately responsible for what they did to the jews, and the Jews should not ultimately be blamed for Germany’s actions. But if you can see something bad it is going to happen, it is in your best interest to avoid it.
For example, if you are driving your car, and see an approaching automobile is exceeding the speed limit, and will blow through the existing stop sign hitting you, it is in your best interest to stop so you will not be hit. You could conclude you have the right of way, and do nothing, resulting in your car being hit, and passengers being injured or killed. You are well within your lawful rights to let the car hit you because the law is on your side. You would be dead right.
True, the victim(s) would be in the right to not stop, and allow the offending driver to hit them. But one could argue, had the victims heeded the warning, they would be alive today. Using your logic, it would be improper to even consider the victims could have avoided the accident.
.
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Allan
Well said....and in fact the author does indeed blame their whole town for not taking heed of the warning.
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