This helps explain Vern's rapid accession through the Way's ranks. His "stand" against R&R brought him into favor with the powers that be. (or should I say "that were" )
Interesting. I just found this, recently posted on a FB page set up by some ex-TWI folk. It's Vern Edwards's letter responding to the letter sent by the R&R folk that they sent complaining about the then BoD. I don't know the date of this letter. (I also posted this letter on the R&R thread, but maybe it deserves its own thread.)
Vern Edwards letter
Dear Household Fellowship Coordinators,
As you are probably aware, the Placement Meetings have been taking place this week (thank you for your prayers!). And you may or may not be aware that there has been another group that is actively working in opposition to the Board of Directors and ministry leadership. This group has been led by Bob & Dottie Moynihan, Phil and Sue Shelton, and Ed and Jacque Horney. As of yesterday at the Placement Meetings, these individuals have been dropped from active Way Corps and are considered “mark and avoid”. This decision was made by the mutual agreement of Directors, the Officers, and the President’s Cabinet for the individuals’ divisive actions. Many efforts have been graciously extended to these individuals over the better part of a year, but to no avail.
Romans 16:17: Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
In Philippians there is a verse that is very appropriate to this subject.
Philippians 2:3: Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory….
Gleaning from both Bullinger’s and Thayer’s Lexicons, we find that strife is defined as “canvassing” or “factiousness”. From an English dictionary, canvassing is “to travel around an area asking people for something such as opinions, or votes”. A faction is defined as “a dissenting minority within a larger group.”
This faction is canvassing, persuading disciples to support their cause through fair words and good speeches (Romans 16:8). The individuals above have initiated a Facebook meeting called “Revival and Restoration Livestream Q&A.” Just to make it clear, this is NOT a ministry backed event. It should be very obvious by the very nature of the FB page. It is a mess of confusion, contention, arguing, and division; anything but decent and in order. When one person stands up for the ministry, they are instantly attacked. Today I see that most comments in support of the ministry have been taken down leaving only the comments of those who are agreeing with the Revival and Restoration group. On the FB page, several encourage others to listen to the Livestream event, after all, what harm is there in that? There is plenty of harm. What harm is there in fiery darts? What harm is there in dissenting words? What harm was there in Eve listening to the serpent? Paul confronted those who spoke words designed to divide and discredit, who sowed seeds of discord.
2 Corinthians 12:20: For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults.
Personally, I will not subject myself to any part of this meeting. My efforts will be put to glorifying God, moving His Word, and promoting unity of the spirit. If you have not read chapter 7, of Just the Way it Was, I would strongly encourage you to do so. This stuff is not new, but has historically been whipped up anytime there has been a transfer of leadership in The Way. Dr. Wierwille wrote the following in The New Dynamic Church, chapter 13, “Why Division?”.
“May God deliver us as the Church from being contentious and difficult, from maligning our brethren, from bickering and quarrelsomeness, from dividing the Body of Christ by our lack of enlightenment. There is too much division outside the Church; our solidarity is imperative to give us strength to move forward in spite of the opposition. May the Father in heaven, for the sake of the only begotten Son, bless us with such an abundance that we may cease to be a part of the problem and become part of the answer. May we as members of Christ’s Body become so filled with love that we may be teachable and have our hearts opened to God’s Holy Word. And may we receive of Him and carry the blessings to all we meet, that they may see us and know we are His.”
The greatest thing we can do is to bring spiritual light to the dark world in which we live. Be the Christian in the room. Invite people to fellowship. Teach them what you know.
Acts 26:18: To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
We have a strong ministry with a bright future. If any of you feel you need to talk, please call. My number is 315-638-2382. I am not into arguing or debating, but am keenly focused on spiritual truth and can perhaps shed light on any genuine concerns or questions you may have.
Standing steadfast, Vern Edwards
Vern Edwards is corporately-groomed to purport company policy..........no matter what.
Vern embodies the religious servitude to twi, not God. He is twi's "Ministry Man."
Just to make it clear, this is NOT a ministry backed event.
When one person stands up for the ministry
..........in support of the ministry
We have a strong ministry
Hey, Vern......don't you get it?The Way International was/isA FACTION that iscanvassing, persuading disciples to support their cause through fair words and good speeches (Romans 16:8). Every teaching, class, and program is cherry-picked to tweak the scriptures towards promoting twi-servitude......not God. Corps and Staff Placement Meetings were and are implemented to further the outreach of the way ministry.......often to the detriment of the individual. Why do you think that hundreds of corps grads have abandoned twi since 2005 and some three thousand corps exited before that!
The premise of your foundation is not biblically sound. Every teaching, class and program should be held up to the light of God's Word......NOT whether it is "a ministry backed event." Without accountability, twi has no checks and balances in place. Thus, one is left to know them by their fruits......and The Way International has had LOADS OF BAD FRUIT these past decades. It is often quoted....."To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.”
Whether it was wierwille's corps teachings or martindale's corps teachings.........we sat for HOURS listening to verbal assaults, strife, division and character assassinations directed at corps individuals. Was this God's will? Was this instructive? Or, was this manipulative? Intimidating? Coercive? Exploitive? People are more easily controlled by fear rather than love. Was the corps program fear-based? Yep! Did it come near the standards of a God-inspired, walk-by-the-spirit, and see the mighty works of the Lord? Nope. After decades of reading and learning from other men's works and ministries......I believe that the corps "training" was an indoctrination program.
The indoctrination herds individuals into a corral of conformity.
Vern is now twi's next president. Meet the new boss......same as the old boss. From this letter, it looks like Vern's mind is grooved into the same mindset as his mentors. There is no way to have "a strong ministry" with this herd, groupthink, mentality. Read the Gospel of John......and count the number of times that Jesus spoke direct revelation one-on-one to individual hearts. Jesus Christ was and is a personal lord and savior. He found those burdened with fear, guilt or shame......and set them FREE.
No more boxes. No more programs. No more herd-mentality.
John 3:16 For God so loved................and we are free, indeed!!
It is hard to image that those who were marked and avoided this time around, did not see it coming. After all, this is always the only outcome to anyone or group questioning the BOD. Plus, I am sure this round of M&A culprits, had marked and avoided others in the past who questioned leadership’s authority. They should have been able to write the story line, from start to finish, for the outcone of their insurrection. Step by step, all should have known what would happen next. Did they truly belive in their hearts, they would be immune from the crushing hand of the BOD?
A possible alternative reason for engaging in such destructive behavior, is each secretly wanted to start their own off shoot, but did not want to just walk away from the Way International. If they did just up and leave, it would be impossible for them to justify such heresy. But, being kicked out for “standing on the word,” they may be able to get a few others, who are also upset with the BOD, to join their ministry.
This round of M&A would also save on the payroll. These are pretty high placed people who would save money for the BOD.
I remember VPW saying to the effect of, if the Wiereille family did not stand on the word, the ministy would fail. This failure of The Way Ministry happened devades ago.
"We have a strong ministry with a bright future. If any of you feel you need to talk, please call. My number is 315-638-2382. I am not into arguing or debating, but am keenly focused on spiritual truth and can perhaps shed light on any genuine concerns or questions you may have."
Translation: Sit down and shut up. I want compliance and obedience to twi's mandates.
What most all of us experienced in wierwille's ministry ("the good old days)..........was silent obedience. We were NOT allowed to ask questions in the pfal class. Even questions that were submitted at the end of the class were side-stepped......or sent to hqtrs for a later reply. See the pattern. Wierwille, early-on, had devised a shrewd system of avoiding direct questions........especially questions that others, nearby, would also hear.
Sure, there was some truths in pfal that wierwille plagiarized from others......but the methods of control were ALREADY IN PLACE.
TWI is a cult......not because of its beliefs, but because of its methods.
Scientology has many of the same systems........1) Deceptive recruiting, 2) Climb steps to spiritual maturity, 3) Strict obedience to leadership, 4) Going Clear - Going Corps, 5) Disconnecting from family and friends, 6) Refusal to listen to those not in group, 7) Immersion and Isolation, 8) No debating another counter-point (No Acts 15), 9) Fear Doctrine if you ever leave the group (cop-out, grease spot by midnight), 10) If you leave group, you lose everything.
Vern flat-out says that he will not debate the issues. He is smug in his self-serving righteousness. Obviously, his mind is a closed mind. He cannot grow, because he cannot question the possibility why some 3,500 corps NO LONGER stand with twi.......or why some 40,000 (???) pfal grads do not associate with their teachings.
How can he NOT consider the dismal state of twi's affairs? Dismal numbers in classes, advanced classes, staff recruiting and corps attendees. Rather than stay ensconced at hqtrs compound and echo chamber......maybe try something different? Take action on what you preach.
“May God deliver us as the Church from being contentious and difficult, from maligning our brethren, from bickering and quarrelsomeness, from dividing the Body of Christ by our lack of enlightenment. There is too much division outside the Church; our solidarity is imperative to give us strength to move forward in spite of the opposition. May the Father in heaven, for the sake of the only begotten Son, bless us with such an abundance that we may cease to be a part of the problem and become part of the answer. May we as members of Christ’s Body become so filled with love that we may be teachable and have our hearts opened to God’s Holy Word. And may we receive of Him and carry the blessings to all we meet, that they may see us and know we are His.”
"Twinky said..."? No, no, no, no, no! Vern said!
And Twinky says: "Yeah, riiiight...!"
"Cease to be part of the problem"??? (They are the problem!") Be teachable"? (Don't make me laugh!) "See us and know we are His" (see us and run a mile, more like).
Since TWI's own MO since its beginning was to be contentious, and thereby to be ... "dividing the body of Christ" I don't seen how things are going to change. What's your position statement, Vern?
And where are your efforts to (re)join as "members of Christ’s Body" and fellowship with actual Christians, and even (ha!) to do as Christ commanded - to love God AND to love fellow human beings? And Vern, do remember that other human beings IS NOT limited to other Wayfers. God pours his blessings on the rich and the poor, the believers and the unbelievers. He loves us all (TWI forgets that) and doesn't wish anyone to perish.
Sorry, so far, I'm not convinced. But if you're serious, you're welcome to come along to my church and see how we do things, and find out what real Christian community is about.
"Cease to be part of the problem"??? (They are the problem!") Be teachable"? (Don't make me laugh!) "See us and know we are His" (see us and run a mile, more like).
Since TWI's own MO since its beginning was to be contentious, and thereby to be ... "dividing the body of Christ" I don't seen how things are going to change. What's your position statement, Vern?
And where are your efforts to (re)join as "members of Christ’s Body" and fellowship with actual Christians, and even (ha!) to do as Christ commanded - to love God AND to love fellow human beings? And Vern, do remember that other human beings IS NOT limited to other Wayfers. God pours his blessings on the rich and the poor, the believers and the unbelievers. He loves us all (TWI forgetswillfully ignores that) and doesn't wish anyone to perish.
Sorry, so far, I'm not convinced. But if you're serious, you're welcome to come along to my church and see how we do things, and find out what real Christian community is about.
Great job articulating the problem, Twinky. It's never been more clear that this has been the problem from the very beginning. Wierwille was always about himself, NOT about God.
Interesting. I just found this, recently posted on a FB page set up by some ex-TWI folk. It's Vern Edwards's letter responding to the letter sent by the R&R folk that they sent complaining about the then BoD. I don't know the date of this letter. (I also posted this letter on the R&R thread, but maybe it deserves its own thread.)
Vern Edwards letter
Dear Household Fellowship Coordinators,
As you are probably aware, the Placement Meetings have been taking place this week (thank you for your prayers!). And you may or may not be aware that there has been another group that is actively working in opposition to the Board of Directors and ministry leadership. This group has been led by Bob & Dottie Moynihan, Phil and Sue Shelton, and Ed and Jacque Horney. As of yesterday at the Placement Meetings, these individuals have been dropped from active Way Corps and are considered “mark and avoid”. This decision was made by the mutual agreement of Directors, the Officers, and the President’s Cabinet for the individuals’ divisive actions. Many efforts have been graciously extended to these individuals over the better part of a year, but to no avail.
(SNIP) Personally, I will not subject myself to any part of this meeting. My efforts will be put to glorifying God, moving His Word, and promoting unity of the spirit. If you have not read chapter 7, of Just the Way it Was, I would strongly encourage you to do so. This stuff is not new, but has historically been whipped up anytime there has been a transfer of leadership in The Way. Dr. Wierwille wrote the following in The New Dynamic Church, chapter 13, “Why Division?”.
“May God deliver us as the Church from being contentious and difficult, from maligning our brethren, from bickering and quarrelsomeness, from dividing the Body of Christ by our lack of enlightenment.
There is too much division outside the Church; our solidarity is imperative to give us strength to move forward in spite of the opposition.
(snip)
9 hours ago, skyrider said:
(snip)
TWI is a cult......not because of its beliefs, but because of its methods.
Scientology has many of the same systems........1) Deceptive recruiting, 2) Climb steps to spiritual maturity, 3) Strict obedience to leadership, 4) Going Clear - Going Corps, 5) Disconnecting from family and friends, 6) Refusal to listen to those not in group, 7) Immersion and Isolation, 8) No debating another counter-point (No Acts 15), 9) Fear Doctrine if you ever leave the group (cop-out, grease spot by midnight), 10) If you leave group, you lose everything.
Vern flat-out says that he will not debate the issues. He is smug in his self-serving righteousness. Obviously, his mind is a closed mind. He cannot grow, because he cannot question the possibility why some 3,500 corps NO LONGER stand with twi.......or why some 40,000 (???) pfal grads do not associate with their teachings.
How can he NOT consider the dismal state of twi's affairs? Dismal numbers in classes, advanced classes, staff recruiting and corps attendees. Rather than stay ensconced at hqtrs compound and echo chamber......maybe try something different? Take action on what you preach.
Being contentious, difficult and especially maligning other Christian groups is exactly what wierwille did to distinguish and separate The Way International from all other Christian groups.
I’ve been in meetings where wierwille would get into his anti-Trinity rant and say stuff along the lines of wrong-seed are promoting the Trinity and to really believe in the Trinity you have to be possessed…As Skyrider said, TWI is a cult - not because of its beliefs, but because of its methods…There was no debating the Trinity – strict obedience to wierwille’s leadership was expected and enforced by sowing the fear of following wrong seed or risking devil-possession.
Thinking about that now, I don’t think it was ever really a concern over “right doctrine” but was just another method of closing the ranks – to keep TWI followers united against other Christian groups…wierwille’s “Why Division?” in The New Dynamic Church book seems like some great rah-rah-let’s-go-team rhetoric – but I tend to think many of us who were caught up in the spiritual elitism of TWI, assumed we were the only “team” that really counted – we were the true Church with more of the rightly-divided-Word than anyone else…teachings on “the household” had a similar agenda – to immerse us more deeply in commitment to the organization but also to further isolate us – set us further apart from other Christians and even other grads of PFAL who didn’t get that involved with TWI…I began to realize how pervasive this “spiritual hierarchy” was shortly after I left TWI when I heard of Chris G’s comment about those who left, saying “now is the fat being trimmed from the body of Christ.”
It is hard to image that those who were marked and avoided this time around, did not see it coming. After all, this is always the only outcome to anyone or group questioning the BOD. Plus, I am sure this round of M&A culprits, had marked and avoided others in the past who questioned leadership’s authority. They should have been able to write the story line, from start to finish, for the outcone of their insurrection. Step by step, all should have known what would happen next. Did they truly belive in their hearts, they would be immune from the crushing hand of the BOD?
A possible alternative reason for engaging in such destructive behavior, is each secretly wanted to start their own off shoot, but did not want to just walk away from the Way International. If they did just up and leave, it would be impossible for them to justify such heresy. But, being kicked out for “standing on the word,” they may be able to get a few others, who are also upset with the BOD, to join their ministry.
This round of M&A would also save on the payroll. These are pretty high placed people who would save money for the BOD.
I remember VPW saying to the effect of, if the Wiereille family did not stand on the word, the ministy would fail. This failure of The Way Ministry happened devades ago.
They not only saw it coming, their plans depended on it. A year before they sent their letter to the BOD, they were heard recruiting, and they'd reserved the domain name for "revival and restoration". This whole "maybe we can all fix this and stay together" thing was mere posturing, a formality that didn't reflect ANYONE'S thinking.
Being contentious, difficult and especially maligning other Christian groups is exactly what wierwille did to distinguish and separate The Way International from all other Christian groups.
I’ve been in meetings where wierwille would get into his anti-Trinity rant and say stuff along the lines of wrong-seed are promoting the Trinity and to really believe in the Trinity you have to be possessed…As Skyrider said, TWI is a cult - not because of its beliefs, but because of its methods…There was no debating the Trinity – strict obedience to wierwille’s leadership was expected and enforced by sowing the fear of following wrong seed or risking devil-possession.
Thinking about that now, I don’t think it was ever really a concern over “right doctrine” but was just another method of closing the ranks – to keep TWI followers united against other Christian groups…wierwille’s “Why Division?” in The New Dynamic Church book seems like some great rah-rah-let’s-go-team rhetoric – but I tend to think many of us who were caught up in the spiritual elitism of TWI, assumed we were the only “team” that really counted – we were the true Church with more of the rightly-divided-Word than anyone else…teachings on “the household” had a similar agenda – to immerse us more deeply in commitment to the organization but also to further isolate us – set us further apart from other Christians and even other grads of PFAL who didn’t get that involved with TWI…I began to realize how pervasive this “spiritual hierarchy” was shortly after I left TWI when I heard of Chris G’s comment about those who left, saying “now is the fat being trimmed from the body of Christ.”
The sad part is their inability to detect their own hypocrisy. Remember being told in twi that the bad guys always accuse the good guys of what they THEMSELVES do?
With twi, we've seen plenty of examples. Anyone kicked out is accused of practices that are standard policy in twi but never acknowledged as the same thing.
"Why Division?" in the NDC. A very long time since I read that book. No desire to re-read.
But isn't the answer to the question, "Because it enables us to control you better"?
Doncha love his "Personally [nose in the air, sniffily], I will not be subjecting myself to any part of this meeting." Very holier-than-thou, Vern. For one, I don't think he was invited to participate, and secondly, i can't see him subjecting himself to anybody (except RFR) - much less to other voices or other advice
And who says R&R are any better ??...their 'leadership' aint exactly the most trust and confidence inspiring group of people in Christendom either !!
That's the general consensus from threads here on the subject. There was one or two people who initially gave them the benefit of the doubt, but for the most part, it was viewed as pretty much ssdd as twi.
As you are probably aware, the Placement Meetings have been taking place this week (thank you for your prayers!). And you may or may not be aware that there has been another group that is actively working in opposition to the Board of Directors and ministry leadership. This group has been led by Bob & Dottie Moynihan, Phil and Sue Shelton, and Ed and Jacque Horney. As of yesterday at the Placement Meetings, these individuals have been dropped from active Way Corps and are considered “mark and avoid”. This decision was made by the mutual agreement of Directors, the Officers, and the President’s Cabinet for the individuals’ divisive actions. Many efforts have been graciously extended to these individuals over the better part of a year, but to no avail.
Romans 16:17: Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
In Philippians there is a verse that is very appropriate to this subject.
Philippians 2:3: Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory….
Gleaning from both Bullinger’s and Thayer’s Lexicons, we find that strife is defined as “canvassing” or “factiousness”. From an English dictionary, canvassing is “to travel around an area asking people for something such as opinions, or votes”. A faction is defined as “a dissenting minority within a larger group.”
This faction is canvassing, persuading disciples to support their cause through fair words and good speeches (Romans 16:8). The individuals above have initiated a Facebook meeting called “Revival and Restoration Livestream Q&A.” Just to make it clear, this is NOT a ministry backed event. It should be very obvious by the very nature of the FB page. It is a mess of confusion, contention, arguing, and division; anything but decent and in order. When one person stands up for the ministry, they are instantly attacked. Today I see that most comments in support of the ministry have been taken down leaving only the comments of those who are agreeing with the Revival and Restoration group. On the FB page, several encourage others to listen to the Livestream event, after all, what harm is there in that? There is plenty of harm. What harm is there in fiery darts? What harm is there in dissenting words? What harm was there in Eve listening to the serpent? Paul confronted those who spoke words designed to divide and discredit, who sowed seeds of discord.
2 Corinthians 12:20: For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults.
Personally, I will not subject myself to any part of this meeting. My efforts will be put to glorifying God, moving His Word, and promoting unity of the spirit. If you have not read chapter 7, of Just the Way it Was, I would strongly encourage you to do so. This stuff is not new, but has historically been whipped up anytime there has been a transfer of leadership in The Way. Dr. Wierwille wrote the following in The New Dynamic Church, chapter 13, “Why Division?”.
“May God deliver us as the Church from being contentious and difficult, from maligning our brethren, from bickering and quarrelsomeness, from dividing the Body of Christ by our lack of enlightenment. There is too much division outside the Church; our solidarity is imperative to give us strength to move forward in spite of the opposition. May the Father in heaven, for the sake of the only begotten Son, bless us with such an abundance that we may cease to be a part of the problem and become part of the answer. May we as members of Christ’s Body become so filled with love that we may be teachable and have our hearts opened to God’s Holy Word. And may we receive of Him and carry the blessings to all we meet, that they may see us and know we are His.”
[Snip]
........
Perhaps, Vern is not aware of The Way International's history of when Victor Paul Wierwille left (fired?) St. Peter's Evangelical and Reformed Church in Van Wert. Mrs. Wierwille's book, Born Again To Serve, gives us plenty of details leading up to them starting a new faction:
Victor Paul Wierwille sought spiritual counsel and guidance from Rev. B.G. Leonard's class (February 1953). p. 90
In June 1953, wierwille takes TWO CARLOADS of Van Wert Church people to B.G. Leonard's class. p.91
In October 1953, wierwille taught Leonard's class in the basement of St. Peter's Church in Van Wert. p.99
Victor Paul Wierwille was starting a new faction!! He was canvassing and recruiting others from his church.
Four Years....1953-1957.....wierwille spent time building his own group while on Van Wert Church payroll.
Wierwille admitted: "Now if I had to do it again, I would do what Paul did -- take all my people with me across the street..." p.216
Wierwille began this new "independent undertaking" on Washington Street in Van Wert December 19, 1957.
In using Leonard's class wholesale for years......it would be fair to say that twi was an OFFSHOOT.
Much to wierwille's chagrin......his name was stricken from St. Peter's Church registry after his departure.
One could say that victor paul wierwille was "considered mark and avoid."
See, Vern.........churches, sects, and cults all have common elements. They section off their interests from others who might claim a stake in those holdings. Then, they tether "their" people to their sanctioned doctrine......even though, that doctrine is fluid and changing thru the years. Church leaders erect more structure that helps them to evade accountability. The Van Wert Church Board was certainly glad to be rid of wierwille. And, unanimously signed in consent to have his name stricken from their church's registry and history! Stricken from record. Erased. Good Riddance. Forgotten.
Vern.....your little Facebook page to "Household Fellowship Coordinators" is a faction unto itself. You are sectioning off your group from others. No matter how many verses you cherry-pick to bolster your position, I could find scores of others to counter them. And, I do find it laughable that you chose to quote "Dr. Wierwille" from his TNDC book and its chapter entitled, "Why Division?" The same man who stole B.G. Leonard's class and then, ran it in a Van Wert church basement.....while he was pastor and on payroll.....and, finally after the church board had had enough, wierwille was unanimously stricken from the clergy registry where he'd served at this church for 13 years.
You quoted wierwille.....to make your point on "Why Division?"
Beguiled, I don't give much time to TWI. I do visit here from time to time, mainly to see if there are any new people or visitors who can be helped. I learned stuff there (including "what it is not"), and I've learned stuff in the very good church that I attend now. You may find that most of the continuing Christians who continue to post here from time to time think much the same.
Can't speak for others, but I find TWI increasingly diminutive in my rear view mirror. Too much to deal with in the here and now.
I know the scars and long-lasting outcomes in terms of my life, both now and into the future, are still there. And will never go.
But I choose to live my life now as richly and fully (and as warily and wisely) as I can. That's where my "mental time and energy go. My God, and the Lord Jesus, are far bigger and better than a miserly cornfield cult.
My God, and the Lord Jesus, are far bigger and better than a miserly cornfield cult.
Yes! They are!! Just spent a night at church in which middle school, high school and college students led a time of worship that was SO much better than any Way prod or Rock of Ages event.
Hardly. All I see on this forum are ex-TWI giving waaay too much of their mental time and energy to TWI.
That's why it's good to hear alternate points of view- sometimes what you don't see is more important than what you DO.
In regards to the GSC:
A) the regulars who post here spend a few minutes a week here. (Any spending more are socializing and that's not twi-related.)
B) The vast majority of people who've posted here have moved on with their lives and don't even check in here any more. Some places consider that bad for the place. However, since the GSC is partly about helping people move on and prosper after surviving twi, we consider them SUCCESS STORIES. They moved on and spend zero minutes a week on twi.
C) We STILL get new posters, so it's good to answer their questions and point to previous discussions on some of their questions. This helps them get to where they can move on.
Interesting. I just found this, recently posted on a FB page set up by some ex-TWI folk. It's Vern Edwards's letter responding to the letter sent by the R&R folk that they sent complaining about the then BoD. I don't know the date of this letter. (I also posted this letter on the R&R thread, but maybe it deserves its own thread.)
Vern Edwards letter
Dear Household Fellowship Coordinators,
As you are probably aware, the Placement Meetings have been taking place this week (thank you for your prayers!). And you may or may not be aware that there has been another group that is actively working in opposition to the Board of Directors and ministry leadership. This group has been led by Bob & Dottie Moynihan, Phil and Sue Shelton, and Ed and Jacque Horney. As of yesterday at the Placement Meetings, these individuals have been dropped from active Way Corps and are considered “mark and avoid”. This decision was made by the mutual agreement of Directors, the Officers, and the President’s Cabinet for the individuals’ divisive actions. Many efforts have been graciously extended to these individuals over the better part of a year, but to no avail.
Romans 16:17: Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
In Philippians there is a verse that is very appropriate to this subject.
Philippians 2:3: Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory….
Gleaning from both Bullinger’s and Thayer’s Lexicons, we find that strife is defined as “canvassing” or “factiousness”. From an English dictionary, canvassing is “to travel around an area asking people for something such as opinions, or votes”. A faction is defined as “a dissenting minority within a larger group.”
This faction is canvassing, persuading disciples to support their cause through fair words and good speeches (Romans 16:8). The individuals above have initiated a Facebook meeting called “Revival and Restoration Livestream Q&A.” Just to make it clear, this is NOT a ministry backed event. It should be very obvious by the very nature of the FB page. It is a mess of confusion, contention, arguing, and division; anything but decent and in order. When one person stands up for the ministry, they are instantly attacked. Today I see that most comments in support of the ministry have been taken down leaving only the comments of those who are agreeing with the Revival and Restoration group. On the FB page, several encourage others to listen to the Livestream event, after all, what harm is there in that? There is plenty of harm. What harm is there in fiery darts? What harm is there in dissenting words? What harm was there in Eve listening to the serpent? Paul confronted those who spoke words designed to divide and discredit, who sowed seeds of discord.
2 Corinthians 12:20: For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults.
Personally, I will not subject myself to any part of this meeting. My efforts will be put to glorifying God, moving His Word, and promoting unity of the spirit. If you have not read chapter 7, of Just the Way it Was, I would strongly encourage you to do so. This stuff is not new, but has historically been whipped up anytime there has been a transfer of leadership in The Way. Dr. Wierwille wrote the following in The New Dynamic Church, chapter 13, “Why Division?”.
“May God deliver us as the Church from being contentious and difficult, from maligning our brethren, from bickering and quarrelsomeness, from dividing the Body of Christ by our lack of enlightenment. There is too much division outside the Church; our solidarity is imperative to give us strength to move forward in spite of the opposition. May the Father in heaven, for the sake of the only begotten Son, bless us with such an abundance that we may cease to be a part of the problem and become part of the answer. May we as members of Christ’s Body become so filled with love that we may be teachable and have our hearts opened to God’s Holy Word. And may we receive of Him and carry the blessings to all we meet, that they may see us and know we are His.”
The greatest thing we can do is to bring spiritual light to the dark world in which we live. Be the Christian in the room. Invite people to fellowship. Teach them what you know.
Acts 26:18: To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
We have a strong ministry with a bright future. If any of you feel you need to talk, please call. My number is 315-638-2382. I am not into arguing or debating, but am keenly focused on spiritual truth and can perhaps shed light on any genuine concerns or questions you may have.
Standing steadfast, Vern Edwards
Twinky, thanks for the information. I personally don't think I will get involved. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. I have been out of TWI for over 30 years; I plan on keeping it that way.
Vern Edwards is corporately-groomed to purport company policy..........no matter what.
Vern embodies the religious servitude to twi, not God. He is twi's "Ministry Man."
Just to make it clear, this is NOT a ministry backed event.
When one person stands up for the ministry
..........in support of the ministry
We have a strong ministry
Hey, Vern......don't you get it?The Way International was/isA FACTION that iscanvassing, persuading disciples to support their cause through fair words and good speeches (Romans 16:8). Every teaching, class, and program is cherry-picked to tweak the scriptures towards promoting twi-servitude......not God. Corps and Staff Placement Meetings were and are implemented to further the outreach of the way ministry.......often to the detriment of the individual. Why do you think that hundreds of corps grads have abandoned twi since 2005 and some three thousand corps exited before that!
The premise of your foundation is not biblically sound. Every teaching, class and program should be held up to the light of God's Word......NOT whether it is "a ministry backed event." Without accountability, twi has no checks and balances in place. Thus, one is left to know them by their fruits......and The Way International has had LOADS OF BAD FRUIT these past decades. It is often quoted....."To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.”
Whether it was wierwille's corps teachings or martindale's corps teachings.........we sat for HOURS listening to verbal assaults, strife, division and character assassinations directed at corps individuals. Was this God's will? Was this instructive? Or, was this manipulative? Intimidating? Coercive? Exploitive? People are more easily controlled by fear rather than love. Was the corps program fear-based? Yep! Did it come near the standards of a God-inspired, walk-by-the-spirit, and see the mighty works of the Lord? Nope. After decades of reading and learning from other men's works and ministries......I believe that the corps "training" was an indoctrination program.
The indoctrination herds individuals into a corral of conformity.
Vern is now twi's next president. Meet the new boss......same as the old boss. From this letter, it looks like Vern's mind is grooved into the same mindset as his mentors. There is no way to have "a strong ministry" with this herd, groupthink, mentality. Read the Gospel of John......and count the number of times that Jesus spoke direct revelation one-on-one to individual hearts. Jesus Christ was and is a personal lord and savior. He found those burdened with fear, guilt or shame......and set them FREE.
No more boxes. No more programs. No more herd-mentality.
John 3:16 For God so loved................and we are free, indeed!!
Being contentious, difficult and especially maligning other Christian groups is exactly what wierwille did to distinguish and separate The Way International from all other Christian groups.
I’ve been in meetings where wierwille would get into his anti-Trinity rant and say stuff along the lines of wrong-seed are promoting the Trinity and to really believe in the Trinity you have to be possessed…As Skyrider said, TWI is a cult - not because of its beliefs, but because of its methods…There was no debating the Trinity – strict obedience to wierwille’s leadership was expected and enforced by sowing the fear of following wrong seed or risking devil-possession.
Thinking about that now, I don’t think it was ever really a concern over “right doctrine” but was just another method of closing the ranks – to keep TWI followers united against other Christian groups…wierwille’s “Why Division?” in The New Dynamic Church book seems like some great rah-rah-let’s-go-team rhetoric – but I tend to think many of us who were caught up in the spiritual elitism of TWI, assumed we were the only “team” that really counted – we were the true Church with more of the rightly-divided-Word than anyone else…teachings on “the household” had a similar agenda – to immerse us more deeply in commitment to the organization but also to further isolate us – set us further apart from other Christians and even other grads of PFAL who didn’t get that involved with TWI…I began to realize how pervasive this “spiritual hierarchy” was shortly after I left TWI when I heard of Chris G’s comment about those who left, saying “now is the fat being trimmed from the body of Christ.”
T-Bone, great post!! However, I think CG should be careful about what he says, or said. I left TWI decades ago, and wish I had left sooner.
Hardly. All I see on this forum are ex-TWI giving waaay too much of their mental time and energy to TWI.
Beguiled, it's my time, and energy. I love reading the various posts on the GSC. Some I agree with, some I don't. But, even with those I disagree with, I still find the posts interesting. I personally had no idea of all the drama, that went on in TWI, until I read all the posts here. Back when I was in TWI, everything was Moonlight, and Roses, or so it seemed. However, since I started reading the posts here at the GSC, I have learned that TWI, f--cked over tons of it's people in various ways. For many of us, we spent our youth, money, and energy in various TWI programs. Youth, money, and energy, we could have used in better ways. I had some great times in TWI, but I also had some problems. I think the GSC is a wonderful, and healthy way to discuss TWI, and what it meant to various people.
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rubina
Nice find Twinky
This helps explain Vern's rapid accession through the Way's ranks. His "stand" against R&R brought him into favor with the powers that be. (or should I say "that were"
)
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skyrider
Vern Edwards is corporately-groomed to purport company policy..........no matter what.
Vern embodies the religious servitude to twi, not God. He is twi's "Ministry Man."
Hey, Vern......don't you get it? The Way International was/is A FACTION that is canvassing, persuading disciples to support their cause through fair words and good speeches (Romans 16:8). Every teaching, class, and program is cherry-picked to tweak the scriptures towards promoting twi-servitude......not God. Corps and Staff Placement Meetings were and are implemented to further the outreach of the way ministry.......often to the detriment of the individual. Why do you think that hundreds of corps grads have abandoned twi since 2005 and some three thousand corps exited before that!
The premise of your foundation is not biblically sound. Every teaching, class and program should be held up to the light of God's Word......NOT whether it is "a ministry backed event." Without accountability, twi has no checks and balances in place. Thus, one is left to know them by their fruits......and The Way International has had LOADS OF BAD FRUIT these past decades. It is often quoted....."To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.”
Whether it was wierwille's corps teachings or martindale's corps teachings.........we sat for HOURS listening to verbal assaults, strife, division and character assassinations directed at corps individuals. Was this God's will? Was this instructive? Or, was this manipulative? Intimidating? Coercive? Exploitive? People are more easily controlled by fear rather than love. Was the corps program fear-based? Yep! Did it come near the standards of a God-inspired, walk-by-the-spirit, and see the mighty works of the Lord? Nope. After decades of reading and learning from other men's works and ministries......I believe that the corps "training" was an indoctrination program.
The indoctrination herds individuals into a corral of conformity.
Vern is now twi's next president. Meet the new boss......same as the old boss. From this letter, it looks like Vern's mind is grooved into the same mindset as his mentors. There is no way to have "a strong ministry" with this herd, groupthink, mentality. Read the Gospel of John......and count the number of times that Jesus spoke direct revelation one-on-one to individual hearts. Jesus Christ was and is a personal lord and savior. He found those burdened with fear, guilt or shame......and set them FREE.
No more boxes. No more programs. No more herd-mentality.
John 3:16 For God so loved................and we are free, indeed!!
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mudflaps
What these dip s——-s don’t understand is we that have left have marked and avoided them!
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Stayed Too Long
It is hard to image that those who were marked and avoided this time around, did not see it coming. After all, this is always the only outcome to anyone or group questioning the BOD. Plus, I am sure this round of M&A culprits, had marked and avoided others in the past who questioned leadership’s authority. They should have been able to write the story line, from start to finish, for the outcone of their insurrection. Step by step, all should have known what would happen next. Did they truly belive in their hearts, they would be immune from the crushing hand of the BOD?
A possible alternative reason for engaging in such destructive behavior, is each secretly wanted to start their own off shoot, but did not want to just walk away from the Way International. If they did just up and leave, it would be impossible for them to justify such heresy. But, being kicked out for “standing on the word,” they may be able to get a few others, who are also upset with the BOD, to join their ministry.
This round of M&A would also save on the payroll. These are pretty high placed people who would save money for the BOD.
I remember VPW saying to the effect of, if the Wiereille family did not stand on the word, the ministy would fail. This failure of The Way Ministry happened devades ago.
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skyrider
"We have a strong ministry with a bright future. If any of you feel you need to talk, please call. My number is 315-638-2382. I am not into arguing or debating, but am keenly focused on spiritual truth and can perhaps shed light on any genuine concerns or questions you may have."
Translation: Sit down and shut up. I want compliance and obedience to twi's mandates.
What most all of us experienced in wierwille's ministry ("the good old days)..........was silent obedience. We were NOT allowed to ask questions in the pfal class. Even questions that were submitted at the end of the class were side-stepped......or sent to hqtrs for a later reply. See the pattern. Wierwille, early-on, had devised a shrewd system of avoiding direct questions........especially questions that others, nearby, would also hear.
Sure, there was some truths in pfal that wierwille plagiarized from others......but the methods of control were ALREADY IN PLACE.
TWI is a cult......not because of its beliefs, but because of its methods.
Scientology has many of the same systems........1) Deceptive recruiting, 2) Climb steps to spiritual maturity, 3) Strict obedience to leadership, 4) Going Clear - Going Corps, 5) Disconnecting from family and friends, 6) Refusal to listen to those not in group, 7) Immersion and Isolation, 8) No debating another counter-point (No Acts 15), 9) Fear Doctrine if you ever leave the group (cop-out, grease spot by midnight), 10) If you leave group, you lose everything.
Vern flat-out says that he will not debate the issues. He is smug in his self-serving righteousness. Obviously, his mind is a closed mind. He cannot grow, because he cannot question the possibility why some 3,500 corps NO LONGER stand with twi.......or why some 40,000 (???) pfal grads do not associate with their teachings.
How can he NOT consider the dismal state of twi's affairs? Dismal numbers in classes, advanced classes, staff recruiting and corps attendees. Rather than stay ensconced at hqtrs compound and echo chamber......maybe try something different? Take action on what you preach.
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Rocky
How? They can obviously still pay the bills by doing things the old way.
What motivation might they have to change when they don't have to?
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Twinky
"Twinky said..."? No, no, no, no, no! Vern said!
And Twinky says: "Yeah, riiiight...!"
"Cease to be part of the problem"??? (They are the problem!") Be teachable"? (Don't make me laugh!) "See us and know we are His" (see us and run a mile, more like).
Since TWI's own MO since its beginning was to be contentious, and thereby to be ... "dividing the body of Christ" I don't seen how things are going to change. What's your position statement, Vern?
And where are your efforts to (re)join as "members of Christ’s Body" and fellowship with actual Christians, and even (ha!) to do as Christ commanded - to love God AND to love fellow human beings? And Vern, do remember that other human beings IS NOT limited to other Wayfers. God pours his blessings on the rich and the poor, the believers and the unbelievers. He loves us all (TWI forgets that) and doesn't wish anyone to perish.
Sorry, so far, I'm not convinced. But if you're serious, you're welcome to come along to my church and see how we do things, and find out what real Christian community is about.
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Rocky
Great job articulating the problem, Twinky. It's never been more clear that this has been the problem from the very beginning. Wierwille was always about himself, NOT about God.
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T-Bone
Being contentious, difficult and especially maligning other Christian groups is exactly what wierwille did to distinguish and separate The Way International from all other Christian groups.
I’ve been in meetings where wierwille would get into his anti-Trinity rant and say stuff along the lines of wrong-seed are promoting the Trinity and to really believe in the Trinity you have to be possessed…As Skyrider said, TWI is a cult - not because of its beliefs, but because of its methods…There was no debating the Trinity – strict obedience to wierwille’s leadership was expected and enforced by sowing the fear of following wrong seed or risking devil-possession.
Thinking about that now, I don’t think it was ever really a concern over “right doctrine” but was just another method of closing the ranks – to keep TWI followers united against other Christian groups…wierwille’s “Why Division?” in The New Dynamic Church book seems like some great rah-rah-let’s-go-team rhetoric – but I tend to think many of us who were caught up in the spiritual elitism of TWI, assumed we were the only “team” that really counted – we were the true Church with more of the rightly-divided-Word than anyone else…teachings on “the household” had a similar agenda – to immerse us more deeply in commitment to the organization but also to further isolate us – set us further apart from other Christians and even other grads of PFAL who didn’t get that involved with TWI…I began to realize how pervasive this “spiritual hierarchy” was shortly after I left TWI when I heard of Chris G’s comment about those who left, saying “now is the fat being trimmed from the body of Christ.”
Edited by T-Bonetypos & formatting
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WordWolf
They not only saw it coming, their plans depended on it. A year before they sent their letter to the BOD, they were heard recruiting, and they'd reserved the domain name for "revival and restoration". This whole "maybe we can all fix this and stay together" thing was mere posturing, a formality that didn't reflect ANYONE'S thinking.
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WordWolf
The sad part is their inability to detect their own hypocrisy. Remember being told in twi that the bad guys always accuse the good guys of what they THEMSELVES do?
With twi, we've seen plenty of examples. Anyone kicked out is accused of practices that are standard policy in twi but never acknowledged as the same thing.
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Twinky
"Why Division?" in the NDC. A very long time since I read that book. No desire to re-read.
But isn't the answer to the question, "Because it enables us to control you better"?
Doncha love his "Personally [nose in the air, sniffily], I will not be subjecting myself to any part of this meeting." Very holier-than-thou, Vern. For one, I don't think he was invited to participate, and secondly, i can't see him subjecting himself to anybody (except RFR) - much less to other voices or other advice
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Allan
And who says R&R are any better ??...their 'leadership' aint exactly the most trust and confidence inspiring group of people in Christendom either !!
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Rocky
That's the general consensus from threads here on the subject. There was one or two people who initially gave them the benefit of the doubt, but for the most part, it was viewed as pretty much ssdd as twi.
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skyrider
Perhaps, Vern is not aware of The Way International's history of when Victor Paul Wierwille left (fired?) St. Peter's Evangelical and Reformed Church in Van Wert. Mrs. Wierwille's book, Born Again To Serve, gives us plenty of details leading up to them starting a new faction:
Much to wierwille's chagrin......his name was stricken from St. Peter's Church registry after his departure.
One could say that victor paul wierwille was "considered mark and avoid."
See, Vern.........churches, sects, and cults all have common elements. They section off their interests from others who might claim a stake in those holdings. Then, they tether "their" people to their sanctioned doctrine......even though, that doctrine is fluid and changing thru the years. Church leaders erect more structure that helps them to evade accountability. The Van Wert Church Board was certainly glad to be rid of wierwille. And, unanimously signed in consent to have his name stricken from their church's registry and history! Stricken from record. Erased. Good Riddance. Forgotten.
Vern.....your little Facebook page to "Household Fellowship Coordinators" is a faction unto itself. You are sectioning off your group from others. No matter how many verses you cherry-pick to bolster your position, I could find scores of others to counter them. And, I do find it laughable that you chose to quote "Dr. Wierwille" from his TNDC book and its chapter entitled, "Why Division?" The same man who stole B.G. Leonard's class and then, ran it in a Van Wert church basement.....while he was pastor and on payroll.....and, finally after the church board had had enough, wierwille was unanimously stricken from the clergy registry where he'd served at this church for 13 years.
You quoted wierwille.....to make your point on "Why Division?"
.
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Beguiled
Hardly. All I see on this forum are ex-TWI giving waaay too much of their mental time and energy to TWI.
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Twinky
Beguiled, I don't give much time to TWI. I do visit here from time to time, mainly to see if there are any new people or visitors who can be helped. I learned stuff there (including "what it is not"), and I've learned stuff in the very good church that I attend now. You may find that most of the continuing Christians who continue to post here from time to time think much the same.
Can't speak for others, but I find TWI increasingly diminutive in my rear view mirror. Too much to deal with in the here and now.
I know the scars and long-lasting outcomes in terms of my life, both now and into the future, are still there. And will never go.
But I choose to live my life now as richly and fully (and as warily and wisely) as I can. That's where my "mental time and energy go. My God, and the Lord Jesus, are far bigger and better than a miserly cornfield cult.
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penguin2
Yes! They are!! Just spent a night at church in which middle school, high school and college students led a time of worship that was SO much better than any Way prod or Rock of Ages event.
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WordWolf
That's why it's good to hear alternate points of view- sometimes what you don't see is more important than what you DO.
In regards to the GSC:
A) the regulars who post here spend a few minutes a week here. (Any spending more are socializing and that's not twi-related.)
B) The vast majority of people who've posted here have moved on with their lives and don't even check in here any more. Some places consider that bad for the place. However, since the GSC is partly about helping people move on and prosper after surviving twi, we consider them SUCCESS STORIES. They moved on and spend zero minutes a week on twi.
C) We STILL get new posters, so it's good to answer their questions and point to previous discussions on some of their questions. This helps them get to where they can move on.
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mudflaps
Yawn
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Grace Valerie Claire
Twinky, thanks for the information. I personally don't think I will get involved. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. I have been out of TWI for over 30 years; I plan on keeping it that way.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Sky, great post!!
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Grace Valerie Claire
T-Bone, great post!! However, I think CG should be careful about what he says, or said. I left TWI decades ago, and wish I had left sooner.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Beguiled, it's my time, and energy. I love reading the various posts on the GSC. Some I agree with, some I don't. But, even with those I disagree with, I still find the posts interesting. I personally had no idea of all the drama, that went on in TWI, until I read all the posts here. Back when I was in TWI, everything was Moonlight, and Roses, or so it seemed. However, since I started reading the posts here at the GSC, I have learned that TWI, f--cked over tons of it's people in various ways. For many of us, we spent our youth, money, and energy in various TWI programs. Youth, money, and energy, we could have used in better ways. I had some great times in TWI, but I also had some problems. I think the GSC is a wonderful, and healthy way to discuss TWI, and what it meant to various people.
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