Yeah, sucks when the Quote thing doesn't work properly.
I'll read the article you reference later. Gotta go to work now. Yep, still working, can I have a few more hours in the day please? so much to do nowadays.
Some of you may already know who Frank Schaeffer is. Some of you may already know that I don't look at the Bible in nearly the same way I (we) did when affiliated with twi.
It does sound interesting – and might be right up my “philosophical alley”. I’m probably somewhat of a Christian agnostic, if I had to describe myself “Christian agnosticism. Christian agnostics practice a distinct form of agnosticism that applies only to the properties of God. They hold that it is difficult or impossible to be sure of anything beyond the basic tenets of the Christian faith.” from Wikipedia Christian Agnosticism I had a coming-out-of-fundamentalism-party on another thread ( here ) …
I fall in the category of agnostic after reading this article. To me, there is certainly a Higher Power that has helped me through out my life. I used to attend Overeaters Anonymous meetings, and they have adapted Alcoholics Anonymous 12 steps for their program. Several of the steps require a belief in a Higher Power, who will assist you in overcoming your addiction.
No more can I believe in a God, who created a Son, by impregnating a maiden on Earth. This birth caused all male babies under the age of one, to be executed.
Or the Son rising from the dead, so mankind could be saved from all their wrong doings. It is difficult to understand what a couple did (eat an apple.) in the Garden of Eden centuries ago, was so terrible that it made me a sinner, in need of redemption. I wasn’t around at the time, don’t blame me.
I have participated in Ouija board sessions. That plastic thingamajig, answered every question it was asked correctly, except once, and that answer was within the ballpark of possibilities. The spelling was always accurate. A group of us got together and performed levitations. Amazing what was done.
These are considered in the realm of Satan. But, in all my years as a Christian did I witness anything supernaturally happening. Raising someone from the dead is always talked about, but only done in books or accounts from the bible. Never saw anyone recover from a disease after being prayed for by having hands laid on them.
Anyway, the Ouija board and levitation convinced me there is a Higher Power, who is above my pay grade, that can help me with my daily life. I don’t pray for help, just focus my mind on my Higher Power helping get the job done.
It does sound interesting – and might be right up my “philosophical alley”. I’m probably somewhat of a Christian agnostic, if I had to describe myself “Christian agnosticism. Christian agnostics practice a distinct form of agnosticism that applies only to the properties of God. They hold that it is difficult or impossible to be sure of anything beyond the basic tenets of the Christian faith.” from Wikipedia Christian Agnosticism I had a coming-out-of-fundamentalism-party on another thread ( here ) …
Anyway, the Ouija board and levitation convinced me there is a Higher Power, who is above my pay grade, that can help me with my daily life. I don’t pray for help, just focus my mind on my Higher Power helping get the job done.
Two millennia after Jesus taught, Christ-like change is beginning to infuse the world at many levels more widely than ever before. So
why does it seem as if so many Christians still fail to grasp the essential truth of our faith: inclusion and justice? Maybe our blindness started when the first Christians didn’t believe what Jesus told them about the kingdom of God: “Neither shall they say, Lo here! Or, lo there! For, behold, the kingdom of God is within you” (Luke 17:21, emphasis added). Irrespective of Jesus’ teaching we continue to tie faith to doctrine, geography, nation, male prerogatives, homophobia and race. It is as if we’ve rewritten Jesus’ saying as: “They shall say, Lo here! And, Lo there! For, behold, the kingdom of God is only found in correct doctrine believed by the chosen few of our tribe!”
Schaeffer, Frank. Why I am an Atheist Who Believes in God: How to give love, create beauty and find peace (pp. 55-56). Frank Schaeffer. Kindle Edition.
Could it be that despite the insane subculture devised by Wierwille, the influence of God's "word" IS moving over the world?
Two millennia after Jesus taught, Christ-like change is beginning to infuse the world at many levels more widely than ever before. So
why does it seem as if so many Christians still fail to grasp the essential truth of our faith: inclusion and justice?Maybe our blindness started when the first Christians didn’t believe what Jesus told them about the kingdom of God: “Neither shall they say, Lo here! Or, lo there! For, behold, the kingdom of God is within you” (Luke 17:21, emphasis added). Irrespective of Jesus’ teaching we continue to tie faith to doctrine, geography, nation, male prerogatives, homophobia and race. It is as if we’ve rewritten Jesus’ saying as: “They shall say, Lo here! And, Lo there!For, behold, the kingdom of God is only found in correct doctrine believed by the chosen few of our tribe!”
Schaeffer, Frank. Why I am an Atheist Who Believes in God: How to give love, create beauty and find peace (pp. 55-56). Frank Schaeffer. Kindle Edition.
== == == ==
Rocky:
Could it be that despite the insane subculture devised by Wierwille, the influence of God's "word" IS moving over the world?
I'm digging Schaeffer's book.
Good point, Rocky…makes me think of another passage that addresses a similar issue of small-mindedness:
37 On the next day, when they had come down from the mountain, a great crowd met him. 38 And behold, a man from the crowd cried out, “Teacher, I beg you to look at my son, for he is my only child. 39 And behold, a spirit seizes him, and he suddenly cries out. It convulses him so that he foams at the mouth, and shatters him, and will hardly leave him. 40 And I begged your disciples to cast it out, but they could not.” 41 Jesus answered, “O faithless and twisted generation, how long am I to be with you and bear with you? Bring your son here.” 42 While he was coming, the demon threw him to the ground and convulsed him. But Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit and healed the boy, and gave him back to his father. 43 And all were astonished at the majesty of God.
46 An argument arose among them as to which of them was the greatest. 47 But Jesus, knowing the reasoning of their hearts, took a child and put him by his side 48 and said to them, “Whoever receives this child in my name receives me, and whoever receives me receives him who sent me. For he who is least among you all is the one who is great.”
49 John answered, “Master, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he does not follow with us.” 50 But Jesus said to him, “Do not stop him, for the one who is not against you is for you.” …Luke 9: 37-43, 46-50 ESV
Perhaps the disciples were envious of someone else doing what they couldn’t do - and maybe were not that altruistic either…But whatever the issues were – I like Jesus’ response which seems to defuse the intolerance and depolarize the differences…so I like Schaeffer’s “why does it seem as if so many Christians still fail to grasp the essential truth of our faith: inclusion and justice?”…inclusion indeed, the body of Christ is a whole lot bigger than we think…perhaps it is something we must continually try to comprehend – that Jesus’ teachings transcend “doctrine, geography, nation, male prerogatives, homophobia and race” et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
Edited by T-Bone a revision that transcends other revisions
Perhaps the disciples were envious of someone else doing what they couldn’t do - and maybe were not that altruistic either…But whatever the issues were – I like Jesus’ response which seems to defuse the intolerance and depolarize the differences…so I like Schaeffer’s “why does it seem as if so many Christians still fail to grasp the essential truth of our faith: inclusion and justice?”…inclusion indeed, the body of Christ is a whole lot bigger than we think…perhaps it is something we must continually try to comprehend – that Jesus’ teachings transcend “doctrine, geography, nation, male prerogatives, homophobia and race” et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
Indeed, it seems clear to me that the Jesus depicted in the Gospels was an "outside the box" thinker and doer. His disciples weren't sinister. Rather, they simply had not yet escaped "the box" that their culture had raised them in.
It takes time to change cultures.
To me, reflecting back on my 12 years in twi, the mindset was much more geared to limiting biblical understanding to the box Wierwille both grew up in and built around himself and his culture than, "oh... how interesting, let's ponder how that might be the case..." type thinking. Of course, that mindset had a solid anchor in his desire for glory and power.
Btw, last night, I listened to a ted talk that was quite interesting along these lines.
I got a kick out of the story of someone asking Dr. Einstein why he issued an exam with the same questions as last year – and his response was that the answers have changed…love that…probably why some of my belief system is in a state of flux – still asking some of the same questions I’ve asked before – but it seems like the answers have changed.
I got a kick out of the story of someone asking Dr. Einstein why he issued an exam with the same questions as last year – and his response was that the answers have changed…love that…probably why some of my belief system is in a state of flux – still asking some of the same questions I’ve asked before – but it seems like the answers have changed.
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Twinky
Yeah, sucks when the Quote thing doesn't work properly.
I'll read the article you reference later. Gotta go to work now. Yep, still working, can I have a few more hours in the day please? so much to do nowadays.
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T-Bone
It does sound interesting – and might be right up my “philosophical alley”. I’m probably somewhat of a Christian agnostic, if I had to describe myself “Christian agnosticism. Christian agnostics practice a distinct form of agnosticism that applies only to the properties of God. They hold that it is difficult or impossible to be sure of anything beyond the basic tenets of the Christian faith.” from Wikipedia Christian Agnosticism I had a coming-out-of-fundamentalism-party on another thread ( here ) …
I like Frank Schaeffer's style of writing; I’ve read another one of his books - Sex, Mom, and God: How the Bible's Strange Take on Sex Led to Crazy Politics--and How I Learned to Love Women (and Jesus) Anyway - There is a chapter called Sex with the Ice Sculpture, an hilarious story of him at 10 years old carving an ice woman out of the deep wet snow and then proceeded to yada yada yada (oh no, he yada yada’d over the best part
)…anyway, thanks for sharing, Rocky – I’ve put that book on my wish list…fyi – your link did not work – if you were just trying to show the book on Amazon – here it is "Why I am an Atheist Who Believes in God" book on Amazon
Edited by T-Bonea revisionist would give you the time of day - several times a day as it changed on the clock
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Stayed Too Long
I fall in the category of agnostic after reading this article. To me, there is certainly a Higher Power that has helped me through out my life. I used to attend Overeaters Anonymous meetings, and they have adapted Alcoholics Anonymous 12 steps for their program. Several of the steps require a belief in a Higher Power, who will assist you in overcoming your addiction.
No more can I believe in a God, who created a Son, by impregnating a maiden on Earth. This birth caused all male babies under the age of one, to be executed.
Or the Son rising from the dead, so mankind could be saved from all their wrong doings. It is difficult to understand what a couple did (eat an apple.) in the Garden of Eden centuries ago, was so terrible that it made me a sinner, in need of redemption. I wasn’t around at the time, don’t blame me.
I have participated in Ouija board sessions. That plastic thingamajig, answered every question it was asked correctly, except once, and that answer was within the ballpark of possibilities. The spelling was always accurate. A group of us got together and performed levitations. Amazing what was done.
These are considered in the realm of Satan. But, in all my years as a Christian did I witness anything supernaturally happening. Raising someone from the dead is always talked about, but only done in books or accounts from the bible. Never saw anyone recover from a disease after being prayed for by having hands laid on them.
Anyway, the Ouija board and levitation convinced me there is a Higher Power, who is above my pay grade, that can help me with my daily life. I don’t pray for help, just focus my mind on my Higher Power helping get the job done.
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Rocky
Yes, that's what I was aiming for... should have tested it when I posted. Thanks for covering for me.
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Rocky
Wow...
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Rocky
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T-Bone
Good point, Rocky…makes me think of another passage that addresses a similar issue of small-mindedness:
37 On the next day, when they had come down from the mountain, a great crowd met him. 38 And behold, a man from the crowd cried out, “Teacher, I beg you to look at my son, for he is my only child. 39 And behold, a spirit seizes him, and he suddenly cries out. It convulses him so that he foams at the mouth, and shatters him, and will hardly leave him. 40 And I begged your disciples to cast it out, but they could not.” 41 Jesus answered, “O faithless and twisted generation, how long am I to be with you and bear with you? Bring your son here.” 42 While he was coming, the demon threw him to the ground and convulsed him. But Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit and healed the boy, and gave him back to his father. 43 And all were astonished at the majesty of God.
46 An argument arose among them as to which of them was the greatest. 47 But Jesus, knowing the reasoning of their hearts, took a child and put him by his side 48 and said to them, “Whoever receives this child in my name receives me, and whoever receives me receives him who sent me. For he who is least among you all is the one who is great.”
49 John answered, “Master, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he does not follow with us.” 50 But Jesus said to him, “Do not stop him, for the one who is not against you is for you.” …Luke 9: 37-43, 46-50 ESV
Perhaps the disciples were envious of someone else doing what they couldn’t do - and maybe were not that altruistic either…But whatever the issues were – I like Jesus’ response which seems to defuse the intolerance and depolarize the differences…so I like Schaeffer’s “why does it seem as if so many Christians still fail to grasp the essential truth of our faith: inclusion and justice?”…inclusion indeed, the body of Christ is a whole lot bigger than we think…perhaps it is something we must continually try to comprehend – that Jesus’ teachings transcend “doctrine, geography, nation, male prerogatives, homophobia and race” et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
Edited by T-Bonea revision that transcends other revisions
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Rocky
Indeed, it seems clear to me that the Jesus depicted in the Gospels was an "outside the box" thinker and doer. His disciples weren't sinister. Rather, they simply had not yet escaped "the box" that their culture had raised them in.
It takes time to change cultures.
To me, reflecting back on my 12 years in twi, the mindset was much more geared to limiting biblical understanding to the box Wierwille both grew up in and built around himself and his culture than, "oh... how interesting, let's ponder how that might be the case..." type thinking. Of course, that mindset had a solid anchor in his desire for glory and power.
Btw, last night, I listened to a ted talk that was quite interesting along these lines.
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T-Bone
Good TED talk, thanks Rocky…I enjoyed that.
I got a kick out of the story of someone asking Dr. Einstein why he issued an exam with the same questions as last year – and his response was that the answers have changed…love that…probably why some of my belief system is in a state of flux – still asking some of the same questions I’ve asked before – but it seems like the answers have changed.
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Rocky
I loved that too!
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