That line sounds like the speaker was suggesting that subjective truth trumps objective truth.
Agree. As we know from the scriptures 'the just shall live by Faith' and we know faith is subjective. As one short example, VPW once said of one of his mentors' statement (I forgot who): 'no one can prove the Trinity, we accept it by Faith." Isn't that a true statement? Everything about God we either accept or reject by Faith or unbelief? Especially in today's world 2000 years later, when none of us has seen Jesus with our own eyes.
I seem to remember DWBH posting about R. Rinker but I may be wrong.
Not sure how it's known that VPW and Rinker got it on. I'm speculating a mutant love child was sent to Argentina a long time ago. But I haven't found any evidence.
vpw's phrasing on this was very suggestive in TW-LiL. I speculated that something happened between them. Later, DWBH confirmed it outright.
"try it, if it doesn't work for you, forget it and leave.
Quote
Waysider:
..but, first, burn all your bridges behind you.
That makes me think of the illusion of freedom…another scam was wierwille and LCM saying things like if in their research they find out something is different from what they taught – they'll change what they teach... But they’ve never been known to do that.
TWI promotes all-or-nothing thinking. it's either all God's Word or none of it is. "I have no friends when it comes to the Word." There are no alternatives...no other interpretations or viewpoints of the Bible are acceptable!
~ ~ ~ ~
Freedom of the mind requires not only, or not even specially, the absence of legal constraints but the presence of alternative thoughts. The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity but the one that removes the awareness of other possibilities..... Allan Bloom... The Closing of the American Mind
~ ~ ~ ~
The illusion of freedom goes along with the illusion of knowledge.
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge.” – Steven Hawking
This brings us to the second question: what behaviors are motivated by the feeling of understanding…researchers feeling that their understanding per se was incomplete. What did this feeling motivate researchers to do? Continue to attempt and build their understanding per se. In the cases where researchers lack the feeling that their understanding per se was incomplete, they seem to do one thing: stop.
In TWI I experienced a twofold method of retention…or rather detention…I thought of wierwille / PFAL as the be-all and end-all of human existence. After all, wierwille was chosen by God and assigned the task of teaching us everything we needed to know. Why look any further? All other sources of knowledge pale in comparison to God-teaching-wierwille-teaching-us, right? And wierwille, LCM and all the other top leadership are always trustworthy too. If they find out that something is wrong, they’ll tell us, right? What’s there to worry about?
Agree. As we know from the scriptures 'the just shall live by Faith' and we know faith is subjective. As one short example, VPW once said of one of his mentors' statement (I forgot who): 'no one can prove the Trinity, we accept it by Faith." Isn't that a true statement? Everything about God we either accept or reject by Faith or unbelief? Especially in today's world 2000 years later, when none of us has seen Jesus with our own eyes.
Yeah it’s some kind of blend of faith and logic.
I think the appeal to mathematics is like in geometry you can take “point, line, and plane” on faith as an “axiom” and derive everything else through proofs - “logic”
I think spiritual matters are not necessarily that clean cut as you are involving dynamic complex situations with real people.
In TWI I experienced a twofold method of retention…or rather detention…I thought of wierwille / PFAL as the be-all and end-all of human existence. After all, wierwille was chosen by God and assigned the task of teaching us everything we needed to know. Why look any further? All other sources of knowledge pale in comparison to God-teaching-wierwille-teaching-us, right? And wierwille, LCM and all the other top leadership are always trustworthy too. If they find out that something is wrong, they’ll tell us, right? What’s there to worry about?
Absolutely, I thought that way too in TWI. Then when I delved into the RC church, I saw that they think that way too. "It's our way or the highway." I guess it's a common phenomenon with corporate religions/ religious groups although I must say, if you don't attend or leave the RC church there's nobody there telling you to watch out that the devil doesn't make you a greasepot.
vpw's phrasing on this was very suggestive in TW-LiL. I speculated that something happened between them. Later, DWBH confirmed it outright.
That Rosalind, a supposedly devout person, would get that intimate with VPW, a married man, tells me she wasn't a source for good values. (VPW himself was a douchebag, if that is not clear)
Absolutely, I thought that way too in TWI. Then when I delved into the RC church, I saw that they think that way too. "It's our way or the highway." I guess it's a common phenomenon with corporate religions/ religious groups although I must say, if you don't attend or leave the RC church there's nobody there telling you to watch out that the devil doesn't make you a greasepot.
some religious groups might be more captivating than others
Rosalind visited in August of 1942 and VPW had his "promise" in September.
I hadn't realized VPW's "conversation with God" went on more than a day.
Rosalind, having her own snowstorm eureka moment appears to be where VPW got the idea. Since he couldn't have ideas of his own. Rosalind's idea was about having a "conversation with God". Where Rosalind drew inspiration for this could be from Agnes but that is TBD.
(This is going off the accounts of a big-fat-liar's letters and Whitesides documentation of the same big-fat-liar)
Absolutely, I thought that way too in TWI. Then when I delved into the RC church, I saw that they think that way too. "It's our way or the highway." I guess it's a common phenomenon with corporate religions/ religious groups although I must say, if you don't attend or leave the RC church there's nobody there telling you to watch out that the devil doesn't make you a greasepot.
could be some comparing-apples-to-oranges going on here…sooooo…how about some clarifications…
In terms of authoritarian and dogmatism , to what degree do we consider a major religious group like the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) in the same class or category as a small non-denominational group like The Way international (TWI)?
In matters of handling doctrinal controversy how does RCC compare to TWI?
In matters of abuse of power and financially exploiting followers how does RCC compare to TWI?
In handling matters of sexual abuse of followers how does RCC compare to TWI?
In terms of group culture, how much pressure is there for followers to conform, to toe the line in RCC compared to TWI?
The credibility ofwierwille’s collaterals relies mostly on the supposed 1942 ‘promise of God’ assigning wierwille the task of ‘accurizing’ the works of others. Imagine God giving wierwille the green light to plagiarize the works of others and furthermore God would help him tie it altogether and fit with the Bible perfectly – resulting in him teaching us “The Word” like it hasn’t been known since the 1st century.
Reviewing wierwille’s collaterals in a normal frame of mind some 37 years after forsaking a cultic-mindset, I find wierwille’s collaterals to be a discombobulated hot mess – the manifesto of a very delusional man.
The incongruity of the whole 1942 promise should be alarming to any Christian…any serious student of the Bible!
Why do I say that?
Well…think about it…doesn’t it seem odd…out of character…even creepy and strange that a Holy benevolent God, biblically famous for His justice, faithfulness, righteousness, omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, sovereignty, etc., would choose wierwille for some special earth-shattering assignment that would have a profound impact on the future of Christianity.
Even if wierwille was clean as a whistle in 1942 and had no ill will – God’s choice of him in 1942 would suggest a number of disturbing-faith-shattering ideas – such as the following – and please note these are just a FEWof the many aberrant alternate possibilities in the spacetime continuum if the 1942 promise/God speaking audibly to wierwille really happened:
1.God doesn’t know the future – that wierwille would develop into a misogynistic pathological liar, malignant narcissist, sexual predator, a thieving flagrant plagiarist, megalomaniac, money-grubbing, chain-smoking, drunkard, abusive, calloused and delusional cult-leader.
2.God does know the future – He knew that wierwille would develop into a misogynistic pathological liar, malignant narcissist, sexual predator, a thieving flagrant plagiarist, megalomaniac, money-grubbing, chain-smoking, drunkard, abusive, calloused and delusional cult-leader – and God was okay with that...The 10 commandmentssuggestions are optional.
3.True Christianity was lost after the 1st century until a misogynistic pathological liar, malignant narcissist, sexual predator, a thieving flagrant plagiarist, megalomaniac, money-grubbing, chain-smoking, drunkard, abusive, calloused and delusional cult-leader like wierwille came along to get Christianity back on track.
4.What Jesus Christ did way back when was important – but that was then – and this is now “The Word takes the place of the absent Christ.”...if you can't comprehend that - just stick around - keep reading the collaterals, because what wierwille SAID is moreimportant now.
5. God doesn’t care about the harm and pain wierwille caused...and God doesn't care about the shame wierwille brought to the name of Jesus Christ...and God doesn’t even care about the pain you have – the main thing is that we parrot wierwille’s pious platitudes…it’s the ABCs of Christianity: Always Be reading the Collaterals.
6. There really were 4 crucified with Jesus Christ.
7. The Bible really does interpret itself.
~ ~ ~ ~
When one removes the footing of wierwille’s authority and his logical fallacies/eclectic interpolations and his twisting of Scripture, wierwille’s dubious doctrines are de-feeted.
Well…think about it…doesn’t it seem odd…out of character…even creepy and strange that a Holy benevolent God, biblically famous for His justice, faithfulness, righteousness, omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, sovereignty, etc., would choose wierwille for some special earth-shattering assignment that would have a profound impact on the future of Christianity.
Does the fact that a person commits horrible sins disqualify the person from receiving revelation? I don't think so -- because God chose numerous sinners throughout history who had Faith in Him who also were horrible sinners. Indeed, all the Bible came from sinners because Jesus never wrote a book. We believe (or disbelieve) the writings despite the sins of the individual delivering it.
Does the fact that a person commits horrible sins disqualify the person from receiving revelation? I don't think so -- because God chose numerous sinners throughout history who had Faith in Him who also were horrible sinners. Indeed, all the Bible came from sinners because Jesus never wrote a book. We believe (or disbelieve) the writings despite the sins of the individual delivering it.
Yeah but 18-19 century gap since the first century . . . Why the silence?
The answer is a conditional... yes. According to Way theology, being out of fellowship severely restricts one's ability to receive revelation.
Agreed. I believe he would have had to be in fellowship with the Father at those times he was "doing the word" which includes receiving revelation and taking action on it. His stuff wasn't original, so I believe his main job was compiling, organizing in one package, and he could have done all that just fine and godly without making up a .... snow story.
Agreed. I believe he would have had to be in fellowship with the Father at those times he was "doing the word" which includes receiving revelation and taking action on it. His stuff wasn't original, so I believe his main job was compiling, organizing in one package, and he could have done all that just fine and godly without making up a .... snow story.
He may have copied the snow story too from Rosalind Rinker. When she dumped him he retreated . . . excuse me, advanced, to his ice castle with his Snowman Fallacy.
Edited by Bolshevik plagiarized from the wrong source
Does the fact that a person commits horrible sins disqualify the person from receiving revelation? I don't think so -- because God chose numerous sinners throughout history who had Faith in Him who also were horrible sinners. Indeed, all the Bible came from sinners because Jesus never wrote a book. We believe (or disbelieve) the writings despite the sins of the individual delivering it.
On the 50/50 chance you might be trying to justify wierwille / PFAL , I will say this:
Paul’s conversion is one example that might cover it both ways - he was a sinner receiving revelation while on the road to Damascus. Did that change his behavior? Most certainly. Even after conversion he described himself as the chief of sinners. But his life / behavior exemplified a changed person - so too with the apostles! And on top of that God authenticated their ministry with the signs of an apostle.
And what was central to Paul’s life and message? Jesus Christ! That was who was absent in wierwille’s life and work.
All God has to work with is sinners - you don’t need to point out the obvious. But where in the Bible do you find justification for God choosing to get His message out through unrepentant sinners?
I think a strong biblical case can be made that there will be many deceivers and heresies in the world - Jesus, the gospel writers , Paul, Peter, Jude and others warned us about that….perhaps some cult followers didn’t get the memo.
This isn’t that difficult to understand…unless…well…love is blind…for folks in denial they might want to ask themselves how enamored they are with wierwille and his works.
Agreed. I believe he would have had to be in fellowship with the Father at those times he was "doing the word" which includes receiving revelation and taking action on it. His stuff wasn't original, so I believe his main job was compiling, organizing in one package, and he could have done all that just fine and godly without making up a .... snow story.
Yet.... even you admit that he made up a snow story. That was blatantly dishonest. That was deceit, that was lying. To any sensible person, that speaks POORLY of his CREDIBILITY. Then when he speaks about God, a SENSIBLE person should remember his credibility was shot and remain skeptical. In twi, however, it's "never question vpw." That's not sensible.
Yet.... even you admit that he made up a snow story. That was blatantly dishonest. That was deceit, that was lying. To any sensible person, that speaks POORLY of his CREDIBILITY. Then when he speaks about God, a SENSIBLE person should remember his credibility was shot and remain skeptical. In twi, however, it's "never question vpw." That's not sensible.
I see the VPW idolatry so clearly. In OT times the people needed to make a golden calf image - the symbol of prosperity. This image in their mind prevented receiving the spiritual truths in the 10 commandments brought down from Sinai by Moses.
I mean as virtue codes go the 10 commandments aren’t bad. Check out virtue codes for other religions and verify with me if you dare.
And Christ fulfilled the law with the two commandments. But he wouldn’t buy the bullshonta of re defining “love your neighbor” to involve smashing thru 3 of the 10 commandments with zero conscience either.
So adultery, stealing, and bearing false witness are pretty much par for the course for an average VPW round of golf. And the current group may have curtailed the adultery but they have the other two commandments fractured just as effectively.
Golden images prevent seeing truth. In any “administration”
On the 50/50 chance you might be trying to justify wierwille / PFAL , I will say this:
Actually I believe PFAL and the rest of the teachings by Wierwille stand or fall on their own in and of themselves and aren't (and shouldn't be deemed as) automatically false because he lied about the snow storm. I feel the same way about the plagiarism in that, plagiarized material doesn't make the material itself false.
Actually I believe PFAL and the rest of the teachings by Wierwille stand or fall on their own in and of themselves and aren't (and shouldn't be deemed as) automatically false because he lied about the snow storm. I feel the same way about the plagiarism in that, plagiarized material doesn't make the material itself false.
Companies take innovations from other companies when they can to get ahead. All is fair in love and war.
His plagiarized material is incoherent. AFAIK, everyone was just pretending to understand any of it.
Actually I believe PFAL and the rest of the teachings by Wierwille stand or fall on their own in and of themselves and aren't (and shouldn't be deemed as) automatically false because he lied about the snow storm. I feel the same way about the plagiarism in that, plagiarized material doesn't make the material itself false.
I would agree that VPW teachings are not automatically false.
Instead of automatic thought we have been discussing them and comparing them to scripture at length.
So I would say that “in addition to” the snowstorm fabrication, investigating VPWs work shows flaws.
Some of the flaws are predictable, like when VPW plagiarized someone else’s work because he didn’t spend the time in the area to develop it himself. You can see the sketchy stitching in the Frankenstein even from a distance.
One denominational pastor J Juedes was so motivated by accounts of VPW victims that he put up a whole website of materials to refute VPWs work. They are linked through many threads here.
Actually I believe PFAL and the rest of the teachings by Wierwille stand or fall on their own in and of themselves and aren't (and shouldn't be deemed as) automatically false because he lied about the snow storm. I feel the same way about the plagiarism in that, plagiarized material doesn't make the material itself false.
Obviously your standards are a lot lower than normal Christianity - and is duly noted as another failed attempt to justify wierwille’s works - which are plagiarized material put through the incompetent delusional mixmaster of wierwille’s mind infused with Kool-Aid of fundamentalism / spiritualism / Gnosticism- it helps build a cultic mindset in so many nonsensical ways.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
27
17
16
20
Popular Days
Jan 5
24
Jan 9
16
Jan 10
16
Apr 30
14
Top Posters In This Topic
WordWolf 27 posts
T-Bone 17 posts
Bolshevik 16 posts
chockfull 20 posts
Popular Days
Jan 5 2023
24 posts
Jan 9 2023
16 posts
Jan 10 2023
16 posts
Apr 30 2023
14 posts
Popular Posts
skyrider
When I got involved in the mid-70s.........the pitch was "This PFAL Class has the keys to understanding the Bible, God's Word. Dr. Wierwille has put this class together from decades of researching th
rubina
Probably not the place for this, but I've started to study church history lately and have found it very interesting. As a result, I've been growing more interested in the Orthodox Churches.
waysider
...but, first, burn all your bridges behind you.
oldiesman
Agree. As we know from the scriptures 'the just shall live by Faith' and we know faith is subjective. As one short example, VPW once said of one of his mentors' statement (I forgot who): 'no one can prove the Trinity, we accept it by Faith." Isn't that a true statement? Everything about God we either accept or reject by Faith or unbelief? Especially in today's world 2000 years later, when none of us has seen Jesus with our own eyes.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
vpw's phrasing on this was very suggestive in TW-LiL. I speculated that something happened between them. Later, DWBH confirmed it outright.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
That makes me think of the illusion of freedom…another scam was wierwille and LCM saying things like if in their research they find out something is different from what they taught – they'll change what they teach... But they’ve never been known to do that.
TWI promotes all-or-nothing thinking. it's either all God's Word or none of it is. "I have no friends when it comes to the Word." There are no alternatives...no other interpretations or viewpoints of the Bible are acceptable!
~ ~ ~ ~
Freedom of the mind requires not only, or not even specially, the absence of legal constraints but the presence of alternative thoughts. The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity but the one that removes the awareness of other possibilities..... Allan Bloom... The Closing of the American Mind
~ ~ ~ ~
The illusion of freedom goes along with the illusion of knowledge.
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge.” – Steven Hawking
This brings us to the second question: what behaviors are motivated by the feeling of understanding…researchers feeling that their understanding per se was incomplete. What did this feeling motivate researchers to do? Continue to attempt and build their understanding per se. In the cases where researchers lack the feeling that their understanding per se was incomplete, they seem to do one thing: stop.
From: Understanding Understanding | Psychology Today
~ ~ ~ ~
In TWI I experienced a twofold method of retention…or rather detention…I thought of wierwille / PFAL as the be-all and end-all of human existence. After all, wierwille was chosen by God and assigned the task of teaching us everything we needed to know. Why look any further? All other sources of knowledge pale in comparison to God-teaching-wierwille-teaching-us, right? And wierwille, LCM and all the other top leadership are always trustworthy too. If they find out that something is wrong, they’ll tell us, right? What’s there to worry about?
Edited by T-Bonerevision
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
Yeah it’s some kind of blend of faith and logic.
I think the appeal to mathematics is like in geometry you can take “point, line, and plane” on faith as an “axiom” and derive everything else through proofs - “logic”
I think spiritual matters are not necessarily that clean cut as you are involving dynamic complex situations with real people.
So I’m back to the blend of faith and logic.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Absolutely, I thought that way too in TWI. Then when I delved into the RC church, I saw that they think that way too. "It's our way or the highway." I guess it's a common phenomenon with corporate religions/ religious groups although I must say, if you don't attend or leave the RC church there's nobody there telling you to watch out that the devil doesn't make you a greasepot.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
That Rosalind, a supposedly devout person, would get that intimate with VPW, a married man, tells me she wasn't a source for good values. (VPW himself was a douchebag, if that is not clear)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
some religious groups might be more captivating than others
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
Worldwolf's quote on July 10, 2016 link
Rosalind visited in August of 1942 and VPW had his "promise" in September.
I hadn't realized VPW's "conversation with God" went on more than a day.
Rosalind, having her own snowstorm eureka moment appears to be where VPW got the idea. Since he couldn't have ideas of his own. Rosalind's idea was about having a "conversation with God". Where Rosalind drew inspiration for this could be from Agnes but that is TBD.
(This is going off the accounts of a big-fat-liar's letters and Whitesides documentation of the same big-fat-liar)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
could be some comparing-apples-to-oranges going on here…sooooo…how about some clarifications…
In terms of authoritarian and dogmatism , to what degree do we consider a major religious group like the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) in the same class or category as a small non-denominational group like The Way international (TWI)?
In matters of handling doctrinal controversy how does RCC compare to TWI?
In matters of abuse of power and financially exploiting followers how does RCC compare to TWI?
In handling matters of sexual abuse of followers how does RCC compare to TWI?
In terms of group culture, how much pressure is there for followers to conform, to toe the line in RCC compared to TWI?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
The credibility of wierwille’s collaterals relies mostly on the supposed 1942 ‘promise of God’ assigning wierwille the task of ‘accurizing’ the works of others. Imagine God giving wierwille the green light to plagiarize the works of others and furthermore God would help him tie it altogether and fit with the Bible perfectly – resulting in him teaching us “The Word” like it hasn’t been known since the 1st century.
Reviewing wierwille’s collaterals in a normal frame of mind some 37 years after forsaking a cultic-mindset, I find wierwille’s collaterals to be a discombobulated hot mess – the manifesto of a very delusional man.
The incongruity of the whole 1942 promise should be alarming to any Christian…any serious student of the Bible!
Why do I say that?
Well…think about it…doesn’t it seem odd…out of character…even creepy and strange that a Holy benevolent God, biblically famous for His justice, faithfulness, righteousness, omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, sovereignty, etc., would choose wierwille for some special earth-shattering assignment that would have a profound impact on the future of Christianity.
Even if wierwille was clean as a whistle in 1942 and had no ill will – God’s choice of him in 1942 would suggest a number of disturbing-faith-shattering ideas – such as the following – and please note these are just a FEW of the many aberrant alternate possibilities in the spacetime continuum if the 1942 promise/God speaking audibly to wierwille really happened:
1. God doesn’t know the future – that wierwille would develop into a misogynistic pathological liar, malignant narcissist, sexual predator, a thieving flagrant plagiarist, megalomaniac, money-grubbing, chain-smoking, drunkard, abusive, calloused and delusional cult-leader.
2.God does know the future – He knew that wierwille would develop into a misogynistic pathological liar, malignant narcissist, sexual predator, a thieving flagrant plagiarist, megalomaniac, money-grubbing, chain-smoking, drunkard, abusive, calloused and delusional cult-leader – and God was okay with that...The 10
commandmentssuggestions are optional.3.True Christianity was lost after the 1st century until a misogynistic pathological liar, malignant narcissist, sexual predator, a thieving flagrant plagiarist, megalomaniac, money-grubbing, chain-smoking, drunkard, abusive, calloused and delusional cult-leader like wierwille came along to get Christianity back on track.
4.What Jesus Christ did way back when was important – but that was then – and this is now “The Word takes the place of the absent Christ.”...if you can't comprehend that - just stick around - keep reading the collaterals, because what wierwille SAID is more important now.
5. God doesn’t care about the harm and pain wierwille caused...and God doesn't care about the shame wierwille brought to the name of Jesus Christ...and God doesn’t even care about the pain you have – the main thing is that we parrot wierwille’s pious platitudes…it’s the ABCs of Christianity: Always Be reading the Collaterals.
6. There really were 4 crucified with Jesus Christ.
7. The Bible really does interpret itself.
~ ~ ~ ~
When one removes the footing of wierwille’s authority and his logical fallacies/eclectic interpolations and his twisting of Scripture, wierwille’s dubious doctrines are de-feeted.
~ ~ ~ ~
Well…that’s all for now, folks
Edited by T-Boneenter the Emoji
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Does the fact that a person commits horrible sins disqualify the person from receiving revelation? I don't think so -- because God chose numerous sinners throughout history who had Faith in Him who also were horrible sinners. Indeed, all the Bible came from sinners because Jesus never wrote a book. We believe (or disbelieve) the writings despite the sins of the individual delivering it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
Yeah but 18-19 century gap since the first century . . . Why the silence?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
The answer is a conditional... yes. According to Way theology, being out of fellowship severely restricts one's ability to receive revelation.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Agreed. I believe he would have had to be in fellowship with the Father at those times he was "doing the word" which includes receiving revelation and taking action on it. His stuff wasn't original, so I believe his main job was compiling, organizing in one package, and he could have done all that just fine and godly without making up a .... snow story.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
He may have copied the snow story too from Rosalind Rinker. When she dumped him he retreated . . . excuse me, advanced, to his ice castle with his Snowman Fallacy.
Edited by Bolshevikplagiarized from the wrong source
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Snow storm, burning bush, golden plates......same old, same old.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
On the 50/50 chance you might be trying to justify wierwille / PFAL , I will say this:
Paul’s conversion is one example that might cover it both ways - he was a sinner receiving revelation while on the road to Damascus. Did that change his behavior? Most certainly. Even after conversion he described himself as the chief of sinners. But his life / behavior exemplified a changed person - so too with the apostles! And on top of that God authenticated their ministry with the signs of an apostle.
And what was central to Paul’s life and message? Jesus Christ! That was who was absent in wierwille’s life and work.
All God has to work with is sinners - you don’t need to point out the obvious. But where in the Bible do you find justification for God choosing to get His message out through unrepentant sinners?
I think a strong biblical case can be made that there will be many deceivers and heresies in the world - Jesus, the gospel writers , Paul, Peter, Jude and others warned us about that….perhaps some cult followers didn’t get the memo.
This isn’t that difficult to understand…unless…well…love is blind…for folks in denial they might want to ask themselves how enamored they are with wierwille and his works.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Yet.... even you admit that he made up a snow story. That was blatantly dishonest. That was deceit, that was lying. To any sensible person, that speaks POORLY of his CREDIBILITY. Then when he speaks about God, a SENSIBLE person should remember his credibility was shot and remain skeptical. In twi, however, it's "never question vpw." That's not sensible.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
I see the VPW idolatry so clearly. In OT times the people needed to make a golden calf image - the symbol of prosperity. This image in their mind prevented receiving the spiritual truths in the 10 commandments brought down from Sinai by Moses.
I mean as virtue codes go the 10 commandments aren’t bad. Check out virtue codes for other religions and verify with me if you dare.
And Christ fulfilled the law with the two commandments. But he wouldn’t buy the bullshonta of re defining “love your neighbor” to involve smashing thru 3 of the 10 commandments with zero conscience either.
So adultery, stealing, and bearing false witness are pretty much par for the course for an average VPW round of golf. And the current group may have curtailed the adultery but they have the other two commandments fractured just as effectively.
Golden images prevent seeing truth. In any “administration”
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Actually I believe PFAL and the rest of the teachings by Wierwille stand or fall on their own in and of themselves and aren't (and shouldn't be deemed as) automatically false because he lied about the snow storm. I feel the same way about the plagiarism in that, plagiarized material doesn't make the material itself false.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
Companies take innovations from other companies when they can to get ahead. All is fair in love and war.
His plagiarized material is incoherent. AFAIK, everyone was just pretending to understand any of it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
nor does it nullify the criminality of plagiarism.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
I would agree that VPW teachings are not automatically false.
Instead of automatic thought we have been discussing them and comparing them to scripture at length.
So I would say that “in addition to” the snowstorm fabrication, investigating VPWs work shows flaws.
Some of the flaws are predictable, like when VPW plagiarized someone else’s work because he didn’t spend the time in the area to develop it himself. You can see the sketchy stitching in the Frankenstein even from a distance.
One denominational pastor J Juedes was so motivated by accounts of VPW victims that he put up a whole website of materials to refute VPWs work. They are linked through many threads here.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
Obviously your standards are a lot lower than normal Christianity - and is duly noted as another failed attempt to justify wierwille’s works - which are plagiarized material put through the incompetent delusional mixmaster of wierwille’s mind infused with Kool-Aid of fundamentalism / spiritualism / Gnosticism- it helps build a cultic mindset in so many nonsensical ways.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.