Ok, I'd like to continue this discussion from a different angle.
That the 1942 "promise" was a poorly-written lie is evident beyond any REASONABLE doubt.
That vpw was, in reality, a conman looking for the best material to plagiarize, who made up the 1942 "promise" to assist in his con at useful moments is, again, beyond any REASONABLE doubt.
That pfal/twi materials contain a mix of plagiarized material of varying quality- some excellent, some nonsense, and some added by vpw who didn't understand what he was plagiarizing- is, again, beyond any REASONABLE doubt.
So, let us take all of that as GIVEN. We all know it.
Now, then, starting from a position that we know all that, I ask everyone......
What difference does it make?
If someone, by their free will, knowingly discard all warnings and all warning signs, and dogmatically clings to pfal as if it was of some actual consequence to God Almighty and to humanity as a whole, and focus their entire life around that by their own choice,
what of it?
Does this really harm the person at all? Is there some reason they should actually stop?
(I'm interested in hearing what the rest of you have to say on the subject.)
Yes it harms the individual. It stunts the individual's growth. If you can't be honest with yourself your reality has to adapt, and this distorts one's vision. If your reality doesn't fit with an objective reality you will be forced to constantly adapt to your narrative. You will burn energy that could be used somewhere else, solving problems that don't really exist. You will make decisions against your own self interest. The individual will negatively impact the real world people around them. People will distance themselves from that person - because they will recognized as low-value, but the individual will not acknowledge this ostracism. That is a form of suffering and death. Holding this view of the 1942 promise and related ideas is a chronic disease.
Amazingly, without believing the 1942 promise I am finding little motivation to take the PFAL Today class.
Why would I?
The teacher showed poor morals in stealing all the material, buying his own printing press to avoid outside editing or thought, and has a reputed poor moral character in family values and substance abuse ending up in his death from cancer. Each subsequent version of the class has surrounded major mark and avoid decisions by the leadership, most of the time taking action on a previous class teacher.
What is the appeal?
Motivated cult members with a new slogan and growth chart potential?
Nostalgia?
Tradition and peer pressure?
I mean the best students took the class, ended up teaching it, and are now marked and avoided.
Can we look at how the claims of how the class betters your life has worked out for all the teachers of the class?
I’m thinking it is a trajectory towards either head Pharisee or it’s excommunication.
Ok, I'd like to continue this discussion from a different angle.
That the 1942 "promise" was a poorly-written lie is evident beyond any REASONABLE doubt.
That vpw was, in reality, a conman looking for the best material to plagiarize, who made up the 1942 "promise" to assist in his con at useful moments is, again, beyond any REASONABLE doubt.
That pfal/twi materials contain a mix of plagiarized material of varying quality- some excellent, some nonsense, and some added by vpw who didn't understand what he was plagiarizing- is, again, beyond any REASONABLE doubt.
So, let us take all of that as GIVEN. We all know it.
Now, then, starting from a position that we know all that, I ask everyone......
What difference does it make?
If someone, by their free will, knowingly discard all warnings and all warning signs, and dogmatically clings to pfal as if it was of some actual consequence to God Almighty and to humanity as a whole, and focus their entire life around that by their own choice,
what of it?
Does this really harm the person at all? Is there some reason they should actually stop?
(I'm interested in hearing what the rest of you have to say on the subject.)
To answer the last question, I once listened to a video of Thomas Sowell discussing how organized crime actually reduces total (violent?) crime. Since the organized crime does need some order and doesn't benefit from loose cannons. Individuals who might commit crime and disregard the establishment may be less likely to commit the same crime knowing a mob boss runs the area.
Maybe a cult organizes unwanted individuals who otherwise might be more dangerous as individuals without the cult consuming their time energy? If a person can't do something terribly productive put them in a hamster wheel to keep them occupied?
Maybe a cult organizes unwanted individuals who otherwise might be more dangerous as individuals without the cult consuming their time energy? If a person can't do something terribly productive put them in a hamster wheel to keep them occupied?
Yeah like Craig. Keep him on a 60k/ year annuity and have him “check in” with someone regularly. He can use all his free time making audio teaching tapes for the internet that 3 people listen to. Works like a charm. Your ABS at work.
Yes it harms the individual. It stunts the individual's growth. If you can't be honest with yourself your reality has to adapt, and this distorts one's vision. If your reality doesn't fit with an objective reality you will be forced to constantly adapt to your narrative. You will burn energy that could be used somewhere else, solving problems that don't really exist. You will make decisions against your own self interest. The individual will negatively impact the real world people around them. People will distance themselves from that person - because they will recognized as low-value, but the individual will not acknowledge this ostracism. That is a form of suffering and death. Holding this view of the 1942 promise and related ideas is a chronic disease.
Yes Bolsh. I will 100 percent agree with you that hanging on to delusions harms the individual. It keeps them trapped in a non reality. It diverts energy that could be used to benefit self and society to prop up remote Pharisees.
VPW said in one of this teachings that if his "stuff" doesn't work for you, "kick it." If it does work, then "you've found an answer." So although the unproven 1942 promise was a hook, even so, PFAL and everything else in TWI had to be tested by the individual himself for truth and accuracy. If not, if one simply assumes its true and reject all other doctrine, and PFAL really is error, then you're screwed.
So,
are you suggesting that vpw ACTUALLY wanted you to check his work and leave if it didn't measure up, or was this just another ploy to make you think he was confident it would stand the test of time- in other words, a BLUFF?
If it was NOT a bluff, why, then, was this buried in "ONE" teaching and not something he said all the time, increasing the chance people would check up behind him? It's like the ONE time I heard him joke that you can take money OUT of the ABS rather than put some in if you needed it. If he said it a lot, people would take him up on it. He made the comment a few times, separated by years and audiences. It was SHOWMANSHIP, not scholarship.
Also,
don't pretend the 1942 promise MIGHT be true by calling it "unproven." It has been DISproven. It's not "well, we can't know for sure" - we CAN know for sure, and it has been DISproven beyond any REASONABLE doubt. Nice try sneaking that one past, though.
We DO agree that if pfal really is error and it's adhered to, the adherent is screwed.
Furthermore, if one's doctrine that is BASED on a VARIATION of pfal is really error and is adhered to, the adherent is screwed.
Yes it harms the individual. It stunts the individual's growth. If you can't be honest with yourself your reality has to adapt, and this distorts one's vision. If your reality doesn't fit with an objective reality you will be forced to constantly adapt to your narrative. You will burn energy that could be used somewhere else, solving problems that don't really exist. You will make decisions against your own self interest. The individual will negatively impact the real world people around them. People will distance themselves from that person - because they will recognized as low-value, but the individual will not acknowledge this ostracism. That is a form of suffering and death. Holding this view of the 1942 promise and related ideas is a chronic disease.
So, just from the social angle, it can cost one a spouse, friends, and/or family. Quite a risk for something that has already been disproven. But, horse, water.
To answer the last question, I once listened to a video of Thomas Sowell discussing how organized crime actually reduces total (violent?) crime. Since the organized crime does need some order and doesn't benefit from loose cannons. Individuals who might commit crime and disregard the establishment may be less likely to commit the same crime knowing a mob boss runs the area.
Maybe a cult organizes unwanted individuals who otherwise might be more dangerous as individuals without the cult consuming their time energy? If a person can't do something terribly productive put them in a hamster wheel to keep them occupied?
Any sociologist can tell you that the sole benefit of organized crime to local communities is that they get rid of DISorganized crime. People who pay "protection money" to mobsters to stay safe- if they're effective mobsters- will find that street crime in their area will be hunted to extinction. That's bad for THEIR business, so they'll push out muggers, etc.
Amazingly, without believing the 1942 promise I am finding little motivation to take the PFAL Today class.
Why would I?
The teacher showed poor morals in stealing all the material, buying his own printing press to avoid outside editing or thought, and has a reputed poor moral character in family values and substance abuse ending up in his death from cancer. Each subsequent version of the class has surrounded major mark and avoid decisions by the leadership, most of the time taking action on a previous class teacher.
What is the appeal?
Motivated cult members with a new slogan and growth chart potential?
Nostalgia?
Tradition and peer pressure?
I mean the best students took the class, ended up teaching it, and are now marked and avoided.
Can we look at how the claims of how the class betters your life has worked out for all the teachers of the class?
I’m thinking it is a trajectory towards either head Pharisee or it’s excommunication.
"In vain is the net spread in sight of any bird." It's one of the reasons we keep telling our stories- so more people can evade the hook even with good bait.
So, it harms the individual to go into twi, and it harms the individual to just buy into occulted doctrines supposedly based on twi or pfal. Most people don't need our help much to see that last part. For the few that fall for it, it's a ruined life no matter how they want to depict it.
Every now and again, someone still claims that pfal and twi were special. Their reason for this is the claim that vpw was special. Their reason for this is the 1942 promise. vpw claimed he received a promise from God Almighty in 1942, and he used this claim to justify thinking of "his" books and classes to akin to the Bible itself.
The supposition that pfal was of significant long-term benefit hangs primarily on the alleged "1942 promise." That promise, as stated by vpw, was that God spoke audibly to vpw, and promised that God Almighty would teach vpw God's Word ;like it hadn't been known since the first century (AD) if vpw would teach it to others. vpw supposedly asked God to confirm this by a miraculous snowstorm.
All right, how many ways can we show this 1942 promise failed? We've done it lots of times before, this is mostly compilation.
A) The miraculous snowstorm never happened.
There was NO report of actual snow anywhere near where this allegedly happened. When it supposedly happened, he didn't even tell his own wife it happened. Come on, that would have been the first words out of any spouse's mouth that evening. ("Honey, you'll never believe what happened to me today...") He never claimed it until decades later. He couldn't keep the details of the miraculous event straight, even. When he first began making this claim, he said the sky looked BLACK with all the heavy snow. This, BTW, isn't what it looks like for even the heaviest snow. Later-probably because he learned that doesn't happen- he switched to saying the sky was WHITE with snow. I'm sure details can get lost over time, but if a miraculous event that turns the sky all one color, you'd at least remember the color.
Finally, this wasn't the only time vpw claimed a miraculous snowstorm. In fact, he did it whenever it was convenient. When he added special significance to the minister's conference where he met Stiles, vpw claimed that the entire city was snowed in completely. He was unable to get out because planes, trains and buses were all stopped due to heavy snow conditions, a blizzard. This was a rather big lie, and one that was checkable. When someone spoke to him about it, he didn't say "I was there and saw the snow and walked in it, check again", he immediately switched his story to prevent trying to contradict the weather report. He immediately began claiming the snow was an angelic apparition- angels made him see snow that wasn't there, and when he phoned transit places, angels answered the phone and lied to him. (He would rather have us think angels lied than that he lied.) In reality, not even a single FLAKE fell from the sky in that city that day, and the temperature didn't reach freezing. This wasn't the last time vpw made up a convenient snowstorm, even. A poster here once noted that vpw was supposed to visit their area. Instead, he phoned and said that he WANTED to fly there, but he was located at a bad snowstorm and he was told it was unsafe. The poster checked the weather in vpw's area at the time, and there was neither snow nor storms predicted.
So, the entire snow part was a lie. Without that, there's no 1942 promise. However, even if it was possible for there to have been a snowstorm (it's not possible), the other problems with his story would be enough to discredit it.
There WAS no 1942 promise. vpw was NEVER some great one. pfal was NEVER some great class nor great study materials. It was all built up as a con-and not the most secure con, either. It needed lots of outside help to prop it up.
Is there a reason "1942" was chosen? Wasn't there a minor skirmish taking place on planet earth at the time? The timing seems odd. The who world was trying to rip itself apart, and he's crying in his office about what now? He could have chosen "1952", would make more sense to me.
Is there a reason "1942" was chosen? Wasn't there a minor skirmish taking place on planet earth at the time? The timing seems odd. The who world was trying to rip itself apart, and he's crying in his office about what now? He could have chosen "1952", would make more sense to me.
One day in summer, 1942, when Wierwille visited Butler, he met Christian missionary and writer Rosalind Rinker. She challenged him to accept the Bible not as man's work, as his liberal theological schooling had taught him, but as the Word of God.
The contradiction of all he had read and heard seemed to fill him with confusion until he underwent an experience in September 1942 that changed his life. Wierwille himself describes, his experience which he claims took place as he prayed in his office in 'Payne, Ohio:
"And I told Father outright that He could have the whole thing, unless there were real genuine answers that I wouldn't ever have to back up on. And that's when He
8
spoke to me audibly, just like I'm talking to you now. He said He would teach me the Word as it had not been known since the first century if I would teach it to others.
One day in summer, 1942, when Wierwille visited Butler, he met Christian missionary and writer Rosalind Rinker. She challenged him to accept the Bible not as man's work, as his liberal theological schooling had taught him, but as the Word of God.
The contradiction of all he had read and heard seemed to fill him with confusion until he underwent an experience in September 1942 that changed his life. Wierwille himself describes, his experience which he claims took place as he prayed in his office in 'Payne, Ohio:
"And I told Father outright that He could have the whole thing, unless there were real genuine answers that I wouldn't ever have to back up on. And that's when He
8
spoke to me audibly, just like I'm talking to you now. He said He would teach me the Word as it had not been known since the first century if I would teach it to others.
Didn't someone post that he said that women never tell the truth? One visit with Rosalind and he changes his entire worldview.
Online information about her seems a bit cryptic. But I think she was married and was very influential. Probably much more than VPW. So who was using who?
Online information about her seems a bit cryptic. But I think she was married and was very influential. Probably much more than VPW. So who was using who?
Yes, by all accounts, she was somebody and somebody who had actually done some notable works of service and such. So yeah..
Many connections making your are...all shonta aside..real cool finds there old friend!
I seem to remember DWBH posting about R. Rinker but I may be wrong.
Not sure how it's known that VPW and Rinker got it on. I'm speculating a mutant love child was sent to Argentina a long time ago. But I haven't found any evidence.
I seem to remember DWBH posting about R. Rinker but I may be wrong.
Not sure how it's known that VPW and Rinker got it on. I'm speculating a mutant love child was sent to Argentina a long time ago. But I haven't found any evidence.
I commented on the fact that when Rinker visited Wierwille at wierwilles house he took her alone to the chapel to pray. Of course I had a snarky comment and found out here on GSC that he did in fact have an affair...hopefully someone can corroborate...or im going crazy....
I commented on the fact that when Rinker visited Wierwille at wierwilles house he took her alone to the chapel to pray. Of course I had a snarky comment and found out here on GSC that he did in fact have an affair...hopefully someone can corroborate...or im going crazy....
You made a comment September 21, 2022.
It seems odd to me Rosalind was too dumb to know not to be alone with vpw like that.
are you suggesting that vpw ACTUALLY wanted you to check his work and leave if it didn't measure up, or was this just another ploy to make you think he was confident it would stand the test of time- in other words, a BLUFF?
If it was NOT a bluff, why, then, was this buried in "ONE" teaching and not something he said all the time, increasing the chance people would check up behind him? It's like the ONE time I heard him joke that you can take money OUT of the ABS rather than put some in if you needed it. If he said it a lot, people would take him up on it. He made the comment a few times, separated by years and audiences. It was SHOWMANSHIP, not scholarship.
Also,
don't pretend the 1942 promise MIGHT be true by calling it "unproven." It has been DISproven. It's not "well, we can't know for sure" - we CAN know for sure, and it has been DISproven beyond any REASONABLE doubt. Nice try sneaking that one past, though.
We DO agree that if pfal really is error and it's adhered to, the adherent is screwed.
Furthermore, if one's doctrine that is BASED on a VARIATION of pfal is really error and is adhered to, the adherent is screwed.
I don't know what was in VPWs heart or his intention when he made the statement, but I took that to mean: "try it, if it doesn't work for you, forget it and leave. If it does work for you, stay with it."
As far as the event actually taking place, a good case has been made that it never happened but I'm sticking with my thought that it's unproven and highly unlikely. Whether it's true or not is up to the individual; I don't believe it myself.
I don't know what was in VPWs heart or his intention when he made the statement, but I took that to mean: "try it, if it doesn't work for you, forget it and leave. If it does work for you, stay with it."
As far as the event actually taking place, a good case has been made that it never happened but I'm sticking with my thought that it's unproven and highly unlikely. Whether it's true or not is up to the individual; I don't believe it myself.
That line sounds like the speaker was suggesting that subjective truth trumps objective truth.
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skyrider
When I got involved in the mid-70s.........the pitch was "This PFAL Class has the keys to understanding the Bible, God's Word. Dr. Wierwille has put this class together from decades of researching th
rubina
Probably not the place for this, but I've started to study church history lately and have found it very interesting. As a result, I've been growing more interested in the Orthodox Churches.
waysider
...but, first, burn all your bridges behind you.
Bolshevik
Yes it harms the individual. It stunts the individual's growth. If you can't be honest with yourself your reality has to adapt, and this distorts one's vision. If your reality doesn't fit with an objective reality you will be forced to constantly adapt to your narrative. You will burn energy that could be used somewhere else, solving problems that don't really exist. You will make decisions against your own self interest. The individual will negatively impact the real world people around them. People will distance themselves from that person - because they will recognized as low-value, but the individual will not acknowledge this ostracism. That is a form of suffering and death. Holding this view of the 1942 promise and related ideas is a chronic disease.
Edited by BolshevikFalse grammar
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chockfull
Amazingly, without believing the 1942 promise I am finding little motivation to take the PFAL Today class.
Why would I?
The teacher showed poor morals in stealing all the material, buying his own printing press to avoid outside editing or thought, and has a reputed poor moral character in family values and substance abuse ending up in his death from cancer. Each subsequent version of the class has surrounded major mark and avoid decisions by the leadership, most of the time taking action on a previous class teacher.
What is the appeal?
Motivated cult members with a new slogan and growth chart potential?
Nostalgia?
Tradition and peer pressure?
I mean the best students took the class, ended up teaching it, and are now marked and avoided.
Can we look at how the claims of how the class betters your life has worked out for all the teachers of the class?
I’m thinking it is a trajectory towards either head Pharisee or it’s excommunication.
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Bolshevik
To answer the last question, I once listened to a video of Thomas Sowell discussing how organized crime actually reduces total (violent?) crime. Since the organized crime does need some order and doesn't benefit from loose cannons. Individuals who might commit crime and disregard the establishment may be less likely to commit the same crime knowing a mob boss runs the area.
Maybe a cult organizes unwanted individuals who otherwise might be more dangerous as individuals without the cult consuming their time energy? If a person can't do something terribly productive put them in a hamster wheel to keep them occupied?
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chockfull
Yeah like Craig. Keep him on a 60k/ year annuity and have him “check in” with someone regularly. He can use all his free time making audio teaching tapes for the internet that 3 people listen to. Works like a charm. Your ABS at work.
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chockfull
Yes Bolsh. I will 100 percent agree with you that hanging on to delusions harms the individual. It keeps them trapped in a non reality. It diverts energy that could be used to benefit self and society to prop up remote Pharisees.
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WordWolf
So,
are you suggesting that vpw ACTUALLY wanted you to check his work and leave if it didn't measure up, or was this just another ploy to make you think he was confident it would stand the test of time- in other words, a BLUFF?
If it was NOT a bluff, why, then, was this buried in "ONE" teaching and not something he said all the time, increasing the chance people would check up behind him? It's like the ONE time I heard him joke that you can take money OUT of the ABS rather than put some in if you needed it. If he said it a lot, people would take him up on it. He made the comment a few times, separated by years and audiences. It was SHOWMANSHIP, not scholarship.
Also,
don't pretend the 1942 promise MIGHT be true by calling it "unproven." It has been DISproven. It's not "well, we can't know for sure" - we CAN know for sure, and it has been DISproven beyond any REASONABLE doubt. Nice try sneaking that one past, though.
We DO agree that if pfal really is error and it's adhered to, the adherent is screwed.
Furthermore, if one's doctrine that is BASED on a VARIATION of pfal is really error and is adhered to, the adherent is screwed.
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WordWolf
So, just from the social angle, it can cost one a spouse, friends, and/or family. Quite a risk for something that has already been disproven. But, horse, water.
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WordWolf
Any sociologist can tell you that the sole benefit of organized crime to local communities is that they get rid of DISorganized crime. People who pay "protection money" to mobsters to stay safe- if they're effective mobsters- will find that street crime in their area will be hunted to extinction. That's bad for THEIR business, so they'll push out muggers, etc.
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WordWolf
"In vain is the net spread in sight of any bird." It's one of the reasons we keep telling our stories- so more people can evade the hook even with good bait.
So, it harms the individual to go into twi, and it harms the individual to just buy into occulted doctrines supposedly based on twi or pfal. Most people don't need our help much to see that last part. For the few that fall for it, it's a ruined life no matter how they want to depict it.
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Bolshevik
Is there a reason "1942" was chosen? Wasn't there a minor skirmish taking place on planet earth at the time? The timing seems odd. The who world was trying to rip itself apart, and he's crying in his office about what now? He could have chosen "1952", would make more sense to me.
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OldSkool
As far as I can tell he discovered Bullinger...
http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/rsr_vcchap1-2.htm
One day in summer, 1942, when Wierwille visited Butler, he met Christian missionary and writer Rosalind Rinker. She challenged him to accept the Bible not as man's work, as his liberal theological schooling had taught him, but as the Word of God.
The contradiction of all he had read and heard seemed to fill him with confusion until he underwent an experience in September 1942 that changed his life. Wierwille himself describes, his experience which he claims took place as he prayed in his office in 'Payne, Ohio:
"And I told Father outright that He could have the whole thing, unless there were real genuine answers that I wouldn't ever have to back up on. And that's when He
8
spoke to me audibly, just like I'm talking to you now. He said He would teach me the Word as it had not been known since the first century if I would teach it to others.
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Bolshevik
Didn't someone post that he said that women never tell the truth? One visit with Rosalind and he changes his entire worldview.
It's like he's contradicting himself . . .
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OldSkool
Yes, and appearantly he was boinking Rinker too.
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Bolshevik
Online information about her seems a bit cryptic. But I think she was married and was very influential. Probably much more than VPW. So who was using who?
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OldSkool
Yes, by all accounts, she was somebody and somebody who had actually done some notable works of service and such. So yeah..
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Bolshevik
Let it snow let it snow let it snow
https://www.inforum.com/lifestyle/eriksmoen-north-dakota-woman-changed-the-way-many-people-pray
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Bolshevik
Rosalind Rinker was influenced at least in part by Agnes Sanford. Sanford is seen as analogous to Mary Baker Eddy.
https://www.thebereancall.org/content/new-age-inroads-church
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OldSkool
Many connections making your are...all shonta aside..real cool finds there old friend!
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Twinky
Interesting article. Never knew anything about her before.
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Bolshevik
I seem to remember DWBH posting about R. Rinker but I may be wrong.
Not sure how it's known that VPW and Rinker got it on. I'm speculating a mutant love child was sent to Argentina a long time ago. But I haven't found any evidence.
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OldSkool
I commented on the fact that when Rinker visited Wierwille at wierwilles house he took her alone to the chapel to pray. Of course I had a snarky comment and found out here on GSC that he did in fact have an affair...hopefully someone can corroborate...or im going crazy....
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Bolshevik
You made a comment September 21, 2022.
It seems odd to me Rosalind was too dumb to know not to be alone with vpw like that.
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oldiesman
I don't know what was in VPWs heart or his intention when he made the statement, but I took that to mean: "try it, if it doesn't work for you, forget it and leave. If it does work for you, stay with it."
As far as the event actually taking place, a good case has been made that it never happened but I'm sticking with my thought that it's unproven and highly unlikely. Whether it's true or not is up to the individual; I don't believe it myself.
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Bolshevik
That line sounds like the speaker was suggesting that subjective truth trumps objective truth.
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