Agreed. I believe he would have had to be in fellowship with the Father at those times he was "doing the word" which includes receiving revelation and taking action on it. His stuff wasn't original, so I believe his main job was compiling, organizing in one package, and he could have done all that just fine and godly without making up a .... snow story.
Coming back to this post.....
Ok, so, agreed the snow story was made-up, a lie, and devoid of authority.
"His stuff wasn't original, so I believe his main job was compiling, organizing in one package."
Where do you get the idea that he had that as any kind of "job"? Oh, right, because he said so. But he's a proven LIAR. Any CLAIMS of his are VOID because he's a proven liar. He's an unreliable source. So, any such CLAIMS would have to be supported some other way other than "that liar insisted that was his job."
There's another assumption here- that he was "receiving revelation and taking action on it." The only reason to think he was doing THAT was to do his ALLEGED "JOB", and the only reason to think that was his "job" was that a proven liar SAID IT WAS.
So, going back to "he would have had to be in fellowship with the Father at those times he was doing the word"......
All of this is BACKWARDS. it is ASSUMED he got a job from God- which was disproven. It is ASSUMED that this (disproven) job meant he had to compile and organize into a package. It is ASSUMED that to do this (disproven) job meant he had to receive revelation and act on it. It is ASSUMED that to do this (disproven) job meant he "was in fellowship with God" part of the time.
All of those assumptions, and all of them based on a disproven point- a disproven claim that he was given a task from God, which he outlined.
When your initial assumption is garbage, EVERYTHING proceeding from it is useless. It is error. It may be error that feels comfortable, but that makes it OLD error, not any less an actual ERROR.
Actually I believe PFAL and the rest of the teachings by Wierwille stand or fall on their own in and of themselves and aren't (and shouldn't be deemed as) automatically false because he lied about the snow storm. I feel the same way about the plagiarism in that, plagiarized material doesn't make the material itself false.
As Raf said so long ago, a truth from the pen of a plagiarist is still true.
HOWEVER, plagiarism matters. Plagiarism goes to the character of the plagiarist. Every time vpw said something without directly supporting it- and that was most of the things he said- it rests on HIS "authority" - which is based on his INTEGRITY and his substance. A plagiarist has LITTLE TO NO INTEGRITY. vpw told people all kinds of things, which they took as coming from God Almighty because vpw said so or because he insinuated it- all of which rested on his nonexistent integrity.
So, all of "his work" should be approached with a LOT more skepticism because it's clear it was all the compilation of a plagiarist serving HIMSELF, not someone special serving God Almighty. Once that scrutiny is actually applied, the wheels start coming off and all the errors, mistakes, and so on become clearer. With one ASSUMING vpw was correct because one was taught he heard from God Almighty, none of that is going to be examined, which means error will remain hidden.
Since it's beyond any REASONABLE doubt that the supposed "1942 promise" was invented by vpw out of whole cloth, and was never actually given vpw by God Almighty, it should be obvious- beyond any REASONABLE doubt- that the entire construction that has been built on it was built on sand. That construction is the delusion there was anything special about vpw's teachings, books, tapes, etc.
vpw's many faults- the rapes, the druggings, the grand larceny (plagiarism over $1000, in the US, is grand larceny), the chronic alcoholism, the chain-smoking, the sudden angry tirades- all of those are supposedly not really an issue because- if the 1942 promise was real- then they would be secondary to God Almighty's Revelation. SINCE the 1942 promise was invented, then all the excuses remain more obviously excuses. With many Bible verses condemning them- verses against drunkenness, wrath, gluttony, theft- one who actually cares what God Almighty says should have little problem seeing how vpw stacked up against warnings in Scripture.
The alleged "reasoning" is all circular. With the 1942 promise SUPPOSED to be true- and a steadfast refusal to look at all the obvious information exposing it as a lie- then all sorts of justifications of vpw are made, all sorts of excuses for vpw are made. Yes, God condemned all that, but since vpw was so special, he gets a special dispensation for that, so he can be excused all sorts of misbehaviors, whether misdemeanors, felonies, or just plain sins. If one BLINDLY CLINGS to the delusion that the 1942 promise was a real thing, and not a poorly-phrased hoax, then all the SENSIBLE discussions will fail to convince. For everyone else, it's all obvious.
So, elaborate rationalizations surround vpw.
First, he becomes a remarkable person through his entire life. The reality is that he was a kid who skipped his chores around the farm, and even by his own admission he was poor at school. He was a bully and a showoff, and he considered business or music as possible careers before settling on the Bible. His own father said it was a bad choice, since he was a lazy kid all his life and the congregation needed better than laziness. He had to get special permission to graduate high school due to poor grades- which really was a "work" issue not choice at that point. A different set of letters convinced NYU that vpw was ready to be a student there immediately. He coasts along, plagiarizing all along the way, until he meets Stiles and Leonard, and rips off Stiles' book and Leonard's class.
Once a devout vpw worshipper, however, is done with him- all due to dogmatic insistence the 1942 promise was a real thing and not a badly-written lie, he becomes superhuman, "overgifted."
vpw often claimed to hear special revelation from God- then recite some NONSENSE he got from some weird fringe group like the John Birch Society. vpw was believed because he had conned people into thinking he heard from God Almighty. All of that was based on integrity which he didn't have, skill which he plagiarized, and lies that he'd heard from God Almighty in 1942. If not for all of those, the foolish cabal drivel would not have been given a second thought, let alone taken seriously. The lies and the plagiarism MATTER. The broken integrity and the lack of character MATTER. The counterfeited authority MATTERED.
All of this is BACKWARDS. it is ASSUMED he got a job from God- which was disproven. It is ASSUMED that this (disproven) job meant he had to compile and organize into a package. It is ASSUMED that to do this (disproven) job meant he had to receive revelation and act on it. It is ASSUMED that to do this (disproven) job meant he "was in fellowship with God" part of the time.
All of those assumptions, and all of them based on a disproven point- a disproven claim that he was given a task from God, which he outlined.
When your initial assumption is garbage, EVERYTHING proceeding from it is useless. It is error. It may be error that feels comfortable, but that makes it OLD error, not any less an actual ERROR.
The way international still does this sort of thing today. They make whatever claim they make and let people assume what they like to support the claims they make. More recent example:
Assumed Reality: Rosalie presented a supposed kinder and gentler way international because she made comments during various corps meetings and such that this is Gawds Minustree and all that. She presented herself as a saviour of the way international of sorts, whille her and donna let LCM take the fall even while rosalie and donna were complicit.
Actual Reality: During a cabinet meeting she openly lamented all of the changes they have had to make since the lawsuits happened.
Assumed reality based on rosalies claims: Kinder and gentler TWI with an open door policy from a president that was actively making changes.
Actual Reality: Rosalie resented the changes she had to make and only did so at the advice of legal council in order for them to keep their money and positions of power intact and lawsuit proof the way international.
Many of these superficial changes are in place to this day. So...with all the dishonesty from top leadership...can anyone make a convincing argument that the assumed reality based on a few claims from rosalie is actual reality?
Actual Reality: The way international has a rich history of false claims starting with wierwille, who left behind a legacy of polluted doctrines and unbiblical practices based on claims that wierwille said of himself that he was given some special job by God almighty that hadnt been completed since the first century...the way international is built on deceit. That which is crooked cannot be made straight.
Agreed. I believe he would have had to be in fellowship with the Father at those times he was "doing the word" which includes receiving revelation and taking action on it. His stuff wasn't original, so I believe his main job was compiling, organizing in one package, and he could have done all that just fine and godly without making up a .... snow story.
1942. Let's see. What else was going on at that time?
The rest of the world was engaged in violent conflict. The USA was slow to this party, not joining until December 1941.
In the USA, young men were being rounded up and sent overseas to fight. The draft was approved September 1940. By December 1941 America's military had grown to nearly 2.2 million soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines. By late 1942 all men aged 18 to 64 were required to register for the draft, though in practice the system concentrated on men under 38. The draft boards considered factors like the importance of a man's occupation to the war effort, his health, and his family situation. Many men volunteered rather than wait to be drafted. That way, they could choose their branch of service.
I cannot recall how old VPW would be at that time. I can foresee that setting up his own church might be seen as a way to escape being drafted. I don't know if clergymen were drafted, or might volunteer because they could provide succour to fighting men; both happened in other countries.
I can also foresee that, with men being drafted and sent overseas, that would provide a fair number of temporarily unaccompanied nubile females. Perhaps New Knoxville, being a farming area, might have a number of exemptions, since food production might be an essential industry (though in other countries, women did the farming, because the men were away fighting - or dead). Nonetheless, there were likely to be more "single" females who might welcome a hug (or more) from a "kindly" (?) minister.
Against this backdrop, finding an excuse not to get drafted might become of prime importance to a lazy, cowardly man. He might be able glibly to claim that he could provide home succour and comfort, keep up morale, etc.
Many theologians, especially in Germany and continental Europe, were being persecuted for their beliefs and for their active resistance to Nazi dictats. Many other Christians set up various support networks to help escapees from persecution, at risk of, and often at cost of, their own lives. And many other lives, Jewish and otherwise, were saved. Some of these rescuers are honoured by Israel as being "righteous among the nations."
Churches, especially in Germany, were corrupted and only allowed to preach an adulterated version of Christianity that supported the Nazi Aryan view. But many ministers stood up against such requirements and were themselves imprisoned and some murdered, for their stance. Some we know about, many others we don't know about.
Here are some events and people you may have heard of. They lived their faith - and taught many others.
Against this background, a nonentity, lazy, cowardly mid-west American man has the idea to have a fake vision and thereafter avoids doing any serious work of his own.
Against this background, maybe one could say that the alleged 1942 promise was very successful. This story kept VPW from having to do anything worthwhile, and it gave him potential access to single females.
It in fact was successful. It's kept a fake ministry going for 80 years, it sucked all of us in, one way or another.
But the content - "I'll teach you the Word like it hasn't been known..." - outright fabrication.
Yeah, sure. But, if you're spiritually mature, you can renew your mind to it being OK, because we're in the Grace Administration.
(Do I need to add this.../s?)
I would say yes you need to add the sarcasm flag. There are far too many reading that support this kind of illogic and lack of accountability.
Yes stealing lying and bearing false witness are all wrong in ANY administration.
Do the excuse makers think that “loving your neighbor as yourself” include committing adultery with his wife, stealing his work that he sells for money, and giving yourself false credentials to prop yourself up better to do the stealing and adultery?
My own earthly Christian father provided a better living example than that.
Even Mike admits that God couldn't have REALLY given victor a promise audible to his natural ears. And in 1942 victor had yet to learn his lo shontas -- SIT are a prerequisite to revelation, right? Yeah, even according to Mike's "logic" it didn't happen.
There MUST be SOMETHING so alluring in there somewhere – but for the life of me, I don’t see it!
It can’t be anything about wierwille – he exemplifies the voracious wolf, the false teacher, the charlatan extraordinaire, the trickster!
It can’t be anything about PFAL – it’s got more holes in it than moldy Swiss cheese.
~ ~ ~ ~
Maybe some folks are fascinated with the idea of a manageable God / religion.
In PFAL wierwille floated the idea:as long as you love God and neighbor you can do as you full well please.
That is convenient! If you tell yourself, you love God and neighbor - you can do WHATEVER YOU WANT!
It sure makes living the Christian lifestyle a lot easier. Pontificating and parroting pious platitudes are a breeze.
~ ~ ~ ~
I think what’s really going on in arguments over wierwille and PFAL stuff, is the right to believe in a manageable God / religion…who wouldn’t want that?
Just imagine how easy being a Christian would be:
You tell yourself: you love God and neighbor – and you can do WHATEVER YOU WANT!
Nowthat’ssomething worth fighting for!
Edited by T-Bone special effects in editing by IDIDNTDOIT
If you’re familiar with the mission of Jesus Christ, you probably realize the bogus 1942 promise of God to wierwille was an egomaniac’s snub of the Holy Spirit!
Remember when Jesus explained his mission to Nicodemus:
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God…John 3: 16 - 21
~ ~ ~ ~
Before his crucifixion Jesus promised he would send his disciples a special gift:
16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you…John 14: 16, 17
He said The Advocate, the Spirit of truth will help you and would be with you FOREVER !
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth. There can be no compromise - to dilute the truth is to lie.
~ ~ ~ ~
7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 about sin, because people do not believe in me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”…John 16: 7 - 15
Jesus was saying the Holy Spirit would CONTINUE the mission of Christ! He’s also reinforcing the teaching role of the Holy Spirit…there’s a lot involved in what Jesus promised. Not only would the Holy Spirit remind them of Jesus’ words and works, as the Advocate He would support and champion their cause. I understand this to mean more than just writing the New Testament documents - since the Holy Spirit is with us He is also the “superintendent” of the Scriptures! That suggests a self-authenticating feature of the Bible as implied inJohn 7:17:
“Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.”
Metaphysical truth is self-authenticating through the teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit.
~ ~ ~ ~
The phony 1942 promise was one of the many ploys wierwille used to hijack as many Christians as he could. During an interview mentioned in the book “The Way: Living in Love” wierwille told Elena Whiteside, The holy spirit field – that’s the field God raised me up for. There’s not a question that cannot be answered biblically. And there’s no one I can’t lead into speaking in tongues if they are Christian and want to do it."
Perhaps wierwille was intoxicated with his own delusions of grandeur - attempting to seize the souls of the young and naive who fell for his pseudo-Christianity scheme – that he was THE Holy Spirit expert.
On page 178 of “The Way Living in Love” wierwille stated “I was praying. And I told Father outright that He could have the whole thing, unless there were real genuine answers that I wouldn't ever have to back up on. And that's when He spoke to me audibly, just like I'm talking to you now. He said He would teach me the Word as it had not been known since the first century if I would teach it to others. Well, I nearly flew off my chair. I couldn't believe that God would talk to me.”
On page 209 of Whiteside’s book wierwille comments on the content of what he teaches: “Lots of the stuff I teach is not original. Putting it all together so that it fit – that was the original work. I learned wherever I could, and then worked that with the Scriptures. What was right on with the Scriptures, I kept; but what wasn’t, I dropped.”
~ ~ ~ ~
So, I askYOUwho have been duped by wierwille / PFAL / The Way International – who are you going to believe?
A false teacher like wierwille who claimed God would teach him “the Word” as it had not been known since the first century and teach it to others by plagiarizing…bastardizing…alchemizing…bestializing…cocainizing…dogmatizing…syncretizing…vandalizing the works of others.
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons…I Timothy 4:1
while evildoers and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived…II Timothy 3:13
Or
you could believe Jesus Christ– He promised the Holy Spirit, The Advocate, the Spirit of truth who will help you and will be with you FOREVER ! The Holy Spirit CONTINUESthe mission of Jesus Christ! He is The Spiritual Activist, He is our support, He champions the cause of Christ. He confirms the Bible for those who choose to do the will of God.
"Despite all the evidence that there was no 1942 promise, I believe there WAS one because I was in twi, and when I was in twi, I got blessed by God, therefore the 1942 promise MUST have been real and legitimate!"
If they had the conviction and courage to post that in this thread, what would you tell them?
"Despite all the evidence that there was no 1942 promise, I believe there WAS one because I was in twi, and when I was in twi, I got blessed by God, therefore the 1942 promise MUST have been real and legitimate!"
If they had the conviction and courage to post that in this thread, what would you tell them?
I'd say they're making a cause and effect error.
It's how superstition get started: a black cat crossed my path and I had bad luck, so the black cat must have caused my bad luck.
There is no connection between the person's feelings in Twi and a supposed promise made decades ago.
"Despite all the evidence that there was no 1942 promise, I believe there WAS one because I was in twi, and when I was in twi, I got blessed by God, therefore the 1942 promise MUST have been real and legitimate!"
If they had the conviction and courage to post that in this thread, what would you tell them?
What would you say to a bag of hammers?
If a tree falls in the forest, but no one is around to see the bear take a $hit, is it 8:40 in the morning?
What could one possibly say to such a non sequitur?
So, for fun, I'll pitch this one to the audience. Suppose someone says "Despite all the evidence that there was no 1942 promise, I believe there WAS one because I was in twi, and when I was in twi, I got blessed by God, therefore the 1942 promise MUST have been real and legitimate!"
If they had the conviction and courage to post that in this thread, what would you tell them?
In the context of real-world events over the last few years – I would probably encourage them to seek the help of mental health professionals.
There have been people in the news who acted out on misinformation, disinformation or delusions. For example:
QAnon follower sentenced to nearly 8 years in prison for standoff near Hoover Dam. Matthew Wright, in an interview with a psychologist hired by his defense attorney, said his June 2018 action was an attempt to gain publicity for a pair of causes, both of which are rooted in conspiratorial thinking.
Wright thought the public was being deceived about what motivated the 2017 mass shooting in Las Vegas. He also thought that President Donald Trump wasn’t acting swiftly enough to reveal purported crimes being committed by longtime political leaders, a belief rooted in the wide-ranging QAnon conspiracy theory. Adherents believe an anonymous person with Q-level security clearance has been posting cryptic clues on relatively obscure websites about the real goings-on behind the scenes in Washington, D.C.
According to this baseless theory, Trump has been investigating high-level corruption among longtime political leaders. Some of those crimes, followers falsely believe, involved child sex trafficking and actual consumption of infant blood.
One-quarter of mass attackers driven by conspiracy theories or hateful ideologies, Following the latest string of mass shootings in the U.S., the Secret Secret Service report says the report details 173 attacks that hurt three or more people in public spaces, including churches and schools, from 2016 to 2020.In an article by Julia Ainsley Jan. 25, 2023 – it goes on to say Among the findings: Although a personal grievance of some sort was the single most common motive, one-quarter of the attackers studied from 2016 to 2020 were motivated by conspiracy theories or hateful ideologies.
At a press conference on Wednesday, Lina Alathari, the chief of the Secret Service’s National Threat Assessment Center, said, "About a quarter, they maintained some kind of conspiracy theory beliefs, so they believed, for example, that 9/11 and the moon landing never happened, that the U.N. was sending an armed force to come take away everyone’s guns."
Spoken words and communicated ideas have consequences. Maybe the person on the soapbox has no ill will – but it’s difficult to predict the effect those words and ideas will have on others or even that one person who grossly misunderstands the message.
Spoken words and communicated ideas have consequences. Maybe the person on the soapbox has no ill will – but it’s difficult to predict the effect those words and ideas will have on others or even that one person who grossly misunderstands the message.
I agree with T-Bone (as I quoted the end of his previous comment).
And I agree with Socrates on the cause and effect error.
A person making such a claim apparently doesn't grasp the fact it is not even close to a valid argument/claim. Unless he does and made the statement to knowingly deceive the listener(s).
It's how superstition get started: a black cat crossed my path and I had bad luck, so the black cat must have caused my bad luck.
There is no connection between the person's feelings in Twi and a supposed promise made decades ago.
Nice summary.
If someone else said that about a church that had no connection to twi, past or present, they'd claim there was an error in their thinking.
If one is in a group, and benefits accrue, there's no guarantee that any one thing about the group is the reason those benefits occur. As for actual benefits in twi, it's relatively easy to track how most of those happened, with a little effort. There was a negative correlation with HQ and Root locales, generally. In fact, people who blame the corps know that- but refuse to take a look at how the benefits occurred LOCALLY and not at HQ. There was talk ABOUT benefits at HQ, but people didn't visit there and come away with stories of visiting and deliverance, healing, etc. One poster here spoke about someone he knew who wanted to get up out of a wheelchair. They went to vpw HIMSELF and asked for prayer. vpw said they would get their deliverance if they took. pfal. Naturally, they took pfal. They left twi not long after that, because the promised deliverance never showed up. Guess they should have lived in some distant place where we don't have eyewitnesses- vpw's tales of healings always score highly there!
"Despite all the evidence that there was no 1942 promise, I believe there WAS one because I was in twi, and when I was in twi, I got blessed by God, therefore the 1942 promise MUST have been real and legitimate!"
If they had the conviction and courage to post that in this thread, what would you tell them?
It is difficult to reason with someone who has their head and heart mixed up like this.
All humans make decisions on a combination of reason and feelings. To make the best decisions there needs to be a good blend of both involved.
This person seems to be making heart decisions and ignoring head input. They are censoring facts not even willing to look at them all for the nostalgic feeling in their soul.
In my life I had to look at feelings and emotions but logic as well. And over time the logic persisted to the point where the emotions don’t sway me inappropriately.
I would hope for this persons sake they eventually have the same conclusions. But that is something everyone has to go thru no exceptions sorting out head, heart, and prayer.
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skyrider
When I got involved in the mid-70s.........the pitch was "This PFAL Class has the keys to understanding the Bible, God's Word. Dr. Wierwille has put this class together from decades of researching th
rubina
Probably not the place for this, but I've started to study church history lately and have found it very interesting. As a result, I've been growing more interested in the Orthodox Churches.
waysider
...but, first, burn all your bridges behind you.
OldSkool
Nossir. His works are polluted with occultism throughout. His entire doctrinal package has to twist scripture to match the law of believing.
Galatians 5:9
A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
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WordWolf
Coming back to this post.....
Ok, so, agreed the snow story was made-up, a lie, and devoid of authority.
"His stuff wasn't original, so I believe his main job was compiling, organizing in one package."
Where do you get the idea that he had that as any kind of "job"? Oh, right, because he said so. But he's a proven LIAR. Any CLAIMS of his are VOID because he's a proven liar. He's an unreliable source. So, any such CLAIMS would have to be supported some other way other than "that liar insisted that was his job."
There's another assumption here- that he was "receiving revelation and taking action on it." The only reason to think he was doing THAT was to do his ALLEGED "JOB", and the only reason to think that was his "job" was that a proven liar SAID IT WAS.
So, going back to "he would have had to be in fellowship with the Father at those times he was doing the word"......
All of this is BACKWARDS. it is ASSUMED he got a job from God- which was disproven. It is ASSUMED that this (disproven) job meant he had to compile and organize into a package. It is ASSUMED that to do this (disproven) job meant he had to receive revelation and act on it. It is ASSUMED that to do this (disproven) job meant he "was in fellowship with God" part of the time.
All of those assumptions, and all of them based on a disproven point- a disproven claim that he was given a task from God, which he outlined.
When your initial assumption is garbage, EVERYTHING proceeding from it is useless. It is error. It may be error that feels comfortable, but that makes it OLD error, not any less an actual ERROR.
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WordWolf
As Raf said so long ago, a truth from the pen of a plagiarist is still true.
HOWEVER, plagiarism matters. Plagiarism goes to the character of the plagiarist. Every time vpw said something without directly supporting it- and that was most of the things he said- it rests on HIS "authority" - which is based on his INTEGRITY and his substance. A plagiarist has LITTLE TO NO INTEGRITY. vpw told people all kinds of things, which they took as coming from God Almighty because vpw said so or because he insinuated it- all of which rested on his nonexistent integrity.
So, all of "his work" should be approached with a LOT more skepticism because it's clear it was all the compilation of a plagiarist serving HIMSELF, not someone special serving God Almighty. Once that scrutiny is actually applied, the wheels start coming off and all the errors, mistakes, and so on become clearer. With one ASSUMING vpw was correct because one was taught he heard from God Almighty, none of that is going to be examined, which means error will remain hidden.
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WordWolf
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WordWolf
vpw often claimed to hear special revelation from God- then recite some NONSENSE he got from some weird fringe group like the John Birch Society. vpw was believed because he had conned people into thinking he heard from God Almighty. All of that was based on integrity which he didn't have, skill which he plagiarized, and lies that he'd heard from God Almighty in 1942. If not for all of those, the foolish cabal drivel would not have been given a second thought, let alone taken seriously. The lies and the plagiarism MATTER. The broken integrity and the lack of character MATTER. The counterfeited authority MATTERED.
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OldSkool
The way international still does this sort of thing today. They make whatever claim they make and let people assume what they like to support the claims they make. More recent example:
Assumed Reality: Rosalie presented a supposed kinder and gentler way international because she made comments during various corps meetings and such that this is Gawds Minustree and all that. She presented herself as a saviour of the way international of sorts, whille her and donna let LCM take the fall even while rosalie and donna were complicit.
Actual Reality: During a cabinet meeting she openly lamented all of the changes they have had to make since the lawsuits happened.
Assumed reality based on rosalies claims: Kinder and gentler TWI with an open door policy from a president that was actively making changes.
Actual Reality: Rosalie resented the changes she had to make and only did so at the advice of legal council in order for them to keep their money and positions of power intact and lawsuit proof the way international.
Many of these superficial changes are in place to this day. So...with all the dishonesty from top leadership...can anyone make a convincing argument that the assumed reality based on a few claims from rosalie is actual reality?
Actual Reality: The way international has a rich history of false claims starting with wierwille, who left behind a legacy of polluted doctrines and unbiblical practices based on claims that wierwille said of himself that he was given some special job by God almighty that hadnt been completed since the first century...the way international is built on deceit. That which is crooked cannot be made straight.
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chockfull
Exodus 20:15 thou shalt not steal.
Does that clear it up for you?
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Twinky
1942. Let's see. What else was going on at that time?
The rest of the world was engaged in violent conflict. The USA was slow to this party, not joining until December 1941.
In the USA, young men were being rounded up and sent overseas to fight. The draft was approved September 1940. By December 1941 America's military had grown to nearly 2.2 million soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines. By late 1942 all men aged 18 to 64 were required to register for the draft, though in practice the system concentrated on men under 38. The draft boards considered factors like the importance of a man's occupation to the war effort, his health, and his family situation. Many men volunteered rather than wait to be drafted. That way, they could choose their branch of service.
I cannot recall how old VPW would be at that time. I can foresee that setting up his own church might be seen as a way to escape being drafted. I don't know if clergymen were drafted, or might volunteer because they could provide succour to fighting men; both happened in other countries.
I can also foresee that, with men being drafted and sent overseas, that would provide a fair number of temporarily unaccompanied nubile females. Perhaps New Knoxville, being a farming area, might have a number of exemptions, since food production might be an essential industry (though in other countries, women did the farming, because the men were away fighting - or dead). Nonetheless, there were likely to be more "single" females who might welcome a hug (or more) from a "kindly" (?) minister.
Against this backdrop, finding an excuse not to get drafted might become of prime importance to a lazy, cowardly man. He might be able glibly to claim that he could provide home succour and comfort, keep up morale, etc.
Edited by TwinkyLink to comment
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Twinky
Back to 1942. Let's see. World War 2.
Many theologians, especially in Germany and continental Europe, were being persecuted for their beliefs and for their active resistance to Nazi dictats. Many other Christians set up various support networks to help escapees from persecution, at risk of, and often at cost of, their own lives. And many other lives, Jewish and otherwise, were saved. Some of these rescuers are honoured by Israel as being "righteous among the nations."
Churches, especially in Germany, were corrupted and only allowed to preach an adulterated version of Christianity that supported the Nazi Aryan view. But many ministers stood up against such requirements and were themselves imprisoned and some murdered, for their stance. Some we know about, many others we don't know about.
Here are some events and people you may have heard of. They lived their faith - and taught many others.
Against this background, a nonentity, lazy, cowardly mid-west American man has the idea to have a fake vision and thereafter avoids doing any serious work of his own.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Righteous_Among_the_Nations_by_country - if you read this carefully, you'll see many churches and church leaders listed (esp in the Netherlands section) - there's no telling without checking every name whether their faith sparked their resistance.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietrich_Bonhoeffer - his works are still widely published and read. Well respected, and his writings are still influential.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrie_ten_Boom - her works are still widely published and read
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betsie_ten_Boom
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Twinky
Against this background, maybe one could say that the alleged 1942 promise was very successful. This story kept VPW from having to do anything worthwhile, and it gave him potential access to single females.
It in fact was successful. It's kept a fake ministry going for 80 years, it sucked all of us in, one way or another.
But the content - "I'll teach you the Word like it hasn't been known..." - outright fabrication.
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waysider
Yeah, sure. But, if you're spiritually mature, you can renew your mind to it being OK, because we're in the Grace Administration.
(Do I need to add this.../s?)
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chockfull
I would say yes you need to add the sarcasm flag. There are far too many reading that support this kind of illogic and lack of accountability.
Yes stealing lying and bearing false witness are all wrong in ANY administration.
Do the excuse makers think that “loving your neighbor as yourself” include committing adultery with his wife, stealing his work that he sells for money, and giving yourself false credentials to prop yourself up better to do the stealing and adultery?
My own earthly Christian father provided a better living example than that.
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Nathan_Jr
Even Mike admits that God couldn't have REALLY given victor a promise audible to his natural ears. And in 1942 victor had yet to learn his lo shontas -- SIT are a prerequisite to revelation, right? Yeah, even according to Mike's "logic" it didn't happen.
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waysider
When you live in a world where down is up and up is down, it really doesn't matter.
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T-Bone
What is the big attraction of wierwille and PFAL?
There MUST be SOMETHING so alluring in there somewhere – but for the life of me, I don’t see it!
It can’t be anything about wierwille – he exemplifies the voracious wolf, the false teacher, the charlatan extraordinaire, the trickster!
It can’t be anything about PFAL – it’s got more holes in it than moldy Swiss cheese.
~ ~ ~ ~
Maybe some folks are fascinated with the idea of a manageable God / religion.
In PFAL wierwille floated the idea: as long as you love God and neighbor you can do as you full well please.
That is convenient! If you tell yourself, you love God and neighbor - you can do WHATEVER YOU WANT!
It sure makes living the Christian lifestyle a lot easier. Pontificating and parroting pious platitudes are a breeze.
~ ~ ~ ~
I think what’s really going on in arguments over wierwille and PFAL stuff, is the right to believe in a manageable God / religion…who wouldn’t want that?
Just imagine how easy being a Christian would be:
You tell yourself: you love God and neighbor – and you can do WHATEVER YOU WANT!
Now that’s something worth fighting for!
Edited by T-Bonespecial effects in editing by IDIDNTDOIT
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waysider
It allows the devotee to do, or at least think, what they want without a sense of shame or guilt.
Edited by waysiderwording
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T-Bone
If you’re familiar with the mission of Jesus Christ, you probably realize the bogus 1942 promise of God to wierwille was an egomaniac’s snub of the Holy Spirit!
Remember when Jesus explained his mission to Nicodemus:
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God…John 3: 16 - 21
~ ~ ~ ~
Before his crucifixion Jesus promised he would send his disciples a special gift:
16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you…John 14: 16, 17
He said The Advocate, the Spirit of truth will help you and would be with you FOREVER !
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth. There can be no compromise - to dilute the truth is to lie.
~ ~ ~ ~
7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 about sin, because people do not believe in me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”…John 16: 7 - 15
Jesus was saying the Holy Spirit would CONTINUE the mission of Christ! He’s also reinforcing the teaching role of the Holy Spirit…there’s a lot involved in what Jesus promised. Not only would the Holy Spirit remind them of Jesus’ words and works, as the Advocate He would support and champion their cause. I understand this to mean more than just writing the New Testament documents - since the Holy Spirit is with us He is also the “superintendent” of the Scriptures! That suggests a self-authenticating feature of the Bible as implied in John 7:17:
“Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.”
Metaphysical truth is self-authenticating through the teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit.
~ ~ ~ ~
The phony 1942 promise was one of the many ploys wierwille used to hijack as many Christians as he could. During an interview mentioned in the book “The Way: Living in Love” wierwille told Elena Whiteside, The holy spirit field – that’s the field God raised me up for. There’s not a question that cannot be answered biblically. And there’s no one I can’t lead into speaking in tongues if they are Christian and want to do it."
Perhaps wierwille was intoxicated with his own delusions of grandeur - attempting to seize the souls of the young and naive who fell for his pseudo-Christianity scheme – that he was THE Holy Spirit expert.
On page 178 of “The Way Living in Love” wierwille stated “I was praying. And I told Father outright that He could have the whole thing, unless there were real genuine answers that I wouldn't ever have to back up on. And that's when He spoke to me audibly, just like I'm talking to you now. He said He would teach me the Word as it had not been known since the first century if I would teach it to others. Well, I nearly flew off my chair. I couldn't believe that God would talk to me.”
On page 209 of Whiteside’s book wierwille comments on the content of what he teaches: “Lots of the stuff I teach is not original. Putting it all together so that it fit – that was the original work. I learned wherever I could, and then worked that with the Scriptures. What was right on with the Scriptures, I kept; but what wasn’t, I dropped.”
~ ~ ~ ~
So, I ask YOU who have been duped by wierwille / PFAL / The Way International – who are you going to believe?
A false teacher like wierwille who claimed God would teach him “the Word” as it had not been known since the first century and teach it to others by plagiarizing…bastardizing…alchemizing…bestializing…cocainizing…dogmatizing…syncretizing…vandalizing the works of others.
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons…I Timothy 4:1
while evildoers and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived…II Timothy 3:13
Or
you could believe Jesus Christ – He promised the Holy Spirit, The Advocate, the Spirit of truth who will help you and will be with you FOREVER ! The Holy Spirit CONTINUES the mission of Jesus Christ! He is The Spiritual Activist, He is our support, He champions the cause of Christ. He confirms the Bible for those who choose to do the will of God.
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WordWolf
So, for fun, I'll pitch this one to the audience.
Suppose someone says
"Despite all the evidence that there was no 1942 promise, I believe there WAS one because I was in twi, and when I was in twi, I got blessed by God, therefore the 1942 promise MUST have been real and legitimate!"
If they had the conviction and courage to post that in this thread, what would you tell them?
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So_crates
I'd say they're making a cause and effect error.
It's how superstition get started: a black cat crossed my path and I had bad luck, so the black cat must have caused my bad luck.
There is no connection between the person's feelings in Twi and a supposed promise made decades ago.
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Nathan_Jr
What would you say to a bag of hammers?
If a tree falls in the forest, but no one is around to see the bear take a $hit, is it 8:40 in the morning?
What could one possibly say to such a non sequitur?
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T-Bone
In the context of real-world events over the last few years – I would probably encourage them to seek the help of mental health professionals.
There have been people in the news who acted out on misinformation, disinformation or delusions. For example:
QAnon follower sentenced to nearly 8 years in prison for standoff near Hoover Dam. Matthew Wright, in an interview with a psychologist hired by his defense attorney, said his June 2018 action was an attempt to gain publicity for a pair of causes, both of which are rooted in conspiratorial thinking.
Wright thought the public was being deceived about what motivated the 2017 mass shooting in Las Vegas. He also thought that President Donald Trump wasn’t acting swiftly enough to reveal purported crimes being committed by longtime political leaders, a belief rooted in the wide-ranging QAnon conspiracy theory. Adherents believe an anonymous person with Q-level security clearance has been posting cryptic clues on relatively obscure websites about the real goings-on behind the scenes in Washington, D.C.
According to this baseless theory, Trump has been investigating high-level corruption among longtime political leaders. Some of those crimes, followers falsely believe, involved child sex trafficking and actual consumption of infant blood.
From: QAnon follower Matthew Wright sentenced in Hoover Dam bridge standoff (azcentral.com)
~ ~ ~ ~
One-quarter of mass attackers driven by conspiracy theories or hateful ideologies, Following the latest string of mass shootings in the U.S., the Secret Secret Service report says the report details 173 attacks that hurt three or more people in public spaces, including churches and schools, from 2016 to 2020. In an article by Julia Ainsley Jan. 25, 2023 – it goes on to say Among the findings: Although a personal grievance of some sort was the single most common motive, one-quarter of the attackers studied from 2016 to 2020 were motivated by conspiracy theories or hateful ideologies.
At a press conference on Wednesday, Lina Alathari, the chief of the Secret Service’s National Threat Assessment Center, said, "About a quarter, they maintained some kind of conspiracy theory beliefs, so they believed, for example, that 9/11 and the moon landing never happened, that the U.N. was sending an armed force to come take away everyone’s guns."
From: One-quarter of mass attackers driven by conspiracy theories or hateful ideologies, Secret Service report says (nbcnews.com)
~ ~ ~ ~
Spoken words and communicated ideas have consequences. Maybe the person on the soapbox has no ill will – but it’s difficult to predict the effect those words and ideas will have on others or even that one person who grossly misunderstands the message.
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Rocky
I agree with T-Bone (as I quoted the end of his previous comment).
And I agree with Socrates on the cause and effect error.
A person making such a claim apparently doesn't grasp the fact it is not even close to a valid argument/claim. Unless he does and made the statement to knowingly deceive the listener(s).
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WordWolf
Nice summary.
If someone else said that about a church that had no connection to twi, past or present, they'd claim there was an error in their thinking.
If one is in a group, and benefits accrue, there's no guarantee that any one thing about the group is the reason those benefits occur. As for actual benefits in twi, it's relatively easy to track how most of those happened, with a little effort. There was a negative correlation with HQ and Root locales, generally. In fact, people who blame the corps know that- but refuse to take a look at how the benefits occurred LOCALLY and not at HQ. There was talk ABOUT benefits at HQ, but people didn't visit there and come away with stories of visiting and deliverance, healing, etc. One poster here spoke about someone he knew who wanted to get up out of a wheelchair. They went to vpw HIMSELF and asked for prayer. vpw said they would get their deliverance if they took. pfal. Naturally, they took pfal. They left twi not long after that, because the promised deliverance never showed up. Guess they should have lived in some distant place where we don't have eyewitnesses- vpw's tales of healings always score highly there!
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chockfull
It is difficult to reason with someone who has their head and heart mixed up like this.
All humans make decisions on a combination of reason and feelings. To make the best decisions there needs to be a good blend of both involved.
This person seems to be making heart decisions and ignoring head input. They are censoring facts not even willing to look at them all for the nostalgic feeling in their soul.
In my life I had to look at feelings and emotions but logic as well. And over time the logic persisted to the point where the emotions don’t sway me inappropriately.
I would hope for this persons sake they eventually have the same conclusions. But that is something everyone has to go thru no exceptions sorting out head, heart, and prayer.
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