Supposedly, God Almighty promised He would teach like it hadn't been known since the 1st century AD. If this were true, there would be a complete disconnect with what was being taught and known elsewhere in 1942 EVERYWHERE and what vpw later taught (because we know he taught others.) However, even those who idolize vpw agree that the material he taught was already taught by others. A paper trail can be traced for virtually all the twi material vpw taught. vpw took Leonard's class, and a few months later, taught 100% of the same material. vpw bought Stiles' book, then typed up a book with the contents- later adding the contents of books by Bullinger to flesh it out more. And so on. So, either God Almighty lied when giving this promise, someone else claiming to be God lied and vpw couldn't tell the difference between a lying spirit and God Almighty, or vpw lied and nobody promised him at all.
C) The alleged promise was based on ignorance.
twi's system shares a trait with the Mikean system- they're both Gnostic systems based on secret knowledge. The twi system-which was vpw's system, set up by him and used by him all the time- was that study of the verses was the key to God (plus the "Law of Believing"),. So, the more you study the verses, the more "godly" you can become, especially if you study it the twi way. We've all seen far too many horror stories of twi "masters" who partly memorized vpw/twi materials and were bigger schmucks if anything. Geer spent hours going over vpw's teachings in between drugging women for vpw to rape and preparing to throw himself over vpw as a human shield if anyone tried to shoot him.
But, let's expose the IGNORANCE in the alleged "promise."
How DID the 1st century Christian church know God's Word?
They knew the Torah/Old Testament. They knew the SPOKEN word, They knew The Word BY EXPERIENCE AND POWER. Think about it. They were getting converts left and right while being a disciple was ILLEGAL and punished by imprisonment, murder, or both. They got LOTS of converts with that going on. No amount of charismatic demagoguery can make up for the risk of being killed or imprisoned. You might get a few disaffected outsiders. Saul of Tarsus joined them - a former persecutor and murderer of Christians (he didn't put his hand on the knife, but he ordered it done.) Did the Greeks hear good speeches then run out and conclude that their gods walked among them and prepared to offer blood sacrifices? They SAW something. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. However, provide the extraordinary proof, and the claims stop looking extraordinary-at least in comparison to the proof.
The 1st century Christians preached-but were known because they had power and could deliver where they spoke. Lots of people preached and didn't get significant converts. Theirs was a pragmatic, direct, power-based ministry. twi was never that. They were study-based, and TALKED ABOUT power lots of times, then considered "Kojacking" a significant witness of "power." 1st century Christians were never centrally-controlled nor organized. twi bore no resemblance to 1st century Christianity except where twi CLAIMED they did. But all the claims don't mean reality matches a claim. The 1st century Christians probably didn't have access to the entire New Testament ANYWHERE. All documents had to be hand-copied. With no printing press and no scanners and PDFs, that was a laborious process and few copies circulated for the 1st century AD (certainly relative to now.)
So, twi has NEVER had "The Word as it was known in the 1st Century." because vpw NEVER had "The Word as it was known in the 1st Century."
vpw might have known that when he phrased the promise he was supposedly given, but he skipped over "Church history". So, he was likely to make such a mistake where God Almighty would not.
vpw made up the alleged 1942 promise. and it's easy to show all the errors. There was no such promise. There's no real, sensible reason to laud vpw or "his" books. They don't comrpise "revelation."
VPW wouldn't know church history if it hit him like a steamroller.
What year did he start teaching PFAL - I mean, before the recording of that dreadful video class. When did he steal it from Stiles and start teaching it as his own? Was that 1942 or somewhat later?
2 hours ago, WordWolf said:
The 1st century Christians preached-but were known because they had power and could deliver where they spoke. Lots of people preached and didn't get significant converts. Theirs was a pragmatic, direct, power-based ministry.
You know, what attracted me to PFAL was (1) the WoW who witnessed to me could show me Bible verses to support what he said and (2) when he prayed, things happened. They really did, things that just "shouldn't have." He loved and believed God. Unfortunately that had become tangled in TWI baggage.
I'd been reading in Acts and had wondered to myself, "These people had power, they prayed and things happened; they asked, and amazing things took place. What happened to that power? Why isn't it still here? Why don't I see that nowadays? When did it all stop happening?" And then I met this WoW. And the rest is history.
Every now and again, someone still claims that pfal and twi were special. Their reason for this is the claim that vpw was special. Their reason for this is the 1942 promise. vpw claimed he received a promise from God Almighty in 1942, and he used this claim to justify thinking of "his" books and classes to akin to the Bible itself.
The supposition that pfal was of significant long-term benefit hangs primarily on the alleged "1942 promise." That promise, as stated by vpw, was that God spoke audibly to vpw, and promised that God Almighty would teach vpw God's Word ;like it hadn't been known since the first century (AD) if vpw would teach it to others. vpw supposedly asked God to confirm this by a miraculous snowstorm.
...........
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When I got involved in the mid-70s.........the pitch was "This PFAL Class has the keys to understanding the Bible, God's Word. Dr. Wierwille has put this class together from decades of researching the Scriptures to help anybody and everyone who wants to receive holy spirit into manifestation and see the power of God in their lives."
Like so many things.......the messaging was evolving. But back then, in my state........there was major emphasis on receiving holy spirit into manifestation so that I could have the power of God when I needed it most. Very little emphasis was put on wierwille's "1942 promise"..........but on the fact that wierwille had researched the Word of God and put it together like no one else. Obviously, in my youth and busy college life.......I never took the time to researchwierwille'sbackground and discover the blatant plagiarism nor did I take the time to uncover many, major spiritual truths and works of study by Kenyon, Jones, Bullinger, others, etc.
It seems to me.......1) Adulation for Dr. Wierwille was a subtle portion of the end result of the pfal class.
Then, when I went to the rock of ages............people would swoon when Dr. Wierwille was near.
The mystique of wierwille had engulfed twi. And, for many............it's still there!
By 1981-1984........bodyguards were positioned along the roa main stage when wierwille was present. Bodyguards? With ear pieces and covert communication amongst a team of security? Why? Oh, that's right.......the devil spirits were always trying to get to "the man of God." Evolution of Unbridled Adulation.......wierwille was treated like a pharaoh or something. An entourage of servants were at his beck and call.
Wierwille basked in the wayworld that he created. He smoked at the head dining room table whenever he wanted. He sipped his Drambuie at night owls or other late night corps meetings. One of those evening sessions, at the Emporia Campus.......wierwille abruptly stated that he wanted all the corps to come back in 20 minutes in their pajamas and bathrobes. And, we did!!!!! Of course, it was seen as "Wow, he just wants to have a casual, fireside get-together with his corps. How cool is that?"
To this day......there are people who idolize their memories of wierwille. When GSC discusses serial plagiarism or wierwille's sexual predation......there is vehement pushback from many defenders. Even lots and lots of corps refute these things discussed here at GSC that tarnish their memories of vpw. They never saw or heard this stuff during their corps experience. Martindale? Yes, but not wierwille. Wierwille was a smooth operator. He was the father figure to a displaced youth. Blind trust. He established an inner circle that were fiercely loyal and secret. And, if you couldn't be 1) loyal and 2) secret.......you couldn't be AROUND wierwille.
twi's system shares a trait with the Mikean system- they're both Gnostic systems based on secret knowledge. The twi system-which was vpw's system, set up by him and used by him all the time- was that study of the verses was the key to God (plus the "Law of Believing"),. So, the more you study the verses, the more "godly" you can become, especially if you study it the twi way.
We've all seen far too many horror stories of twi "masters" who partly memorized vpw/twi materials and were bigger schmucks if anything. Geer spent hours going over vpw's teachings in between drugging women for vpw to rape and preparing to throw himself over vpw as a human shield if anyone tried to shoot him.
(snip)
Great posts, WordWolf !
Gnosticism is from the Greek and means " having knowledge" and “is a collection of ancient religious ideas and systems which originated in the first century AD among early Christian and Jewish sects. These various groups emphasized personal spiritual knowledge (gnosis) overorthodox teachings, traditions, and ecclesiastical authority.”
The prominence of a secret knowledge fits wierwille’s "teaching" platform to a T. His excitement and confidence in saying something like “now you can know, that you know, that you know” in PFAL comes to mind…
A well-documented version of his “secret-knowledge-snow-job" is on page 23 & 24 of "The Bible Tells Me So", in the chapter "Are You Limiting God?" wierwille says:
".. .We frequently limit God in ourselves by our wrong believing, by accepting the knowledge that comes to us through our senses. Our reason says, 'That just cannot be,' and so we confess the negative, when all the time His spirit within us is crying out, 'Sufficiency in everything.'
We have been so schooled to revere the knowledge that comes to us through our five senses that we fail to recognize the knowledge that comes from the higher realm, the spiritual where the Word of God, and not reason, has first place. Both realms or worlds are here: the natural world is factual; the spiritual world is true.
As there are four kingdoms in this world, and one supersedes the other: the plant kingdom, animal kingdom, kingdom of man and the Kingdom of God; so, there is a natural world and a supernatural or spiritual world.
The natural world and everything in it comes to the mind through or by way of the natural senses. The truths of the spiritual world are absolutely not dependent upon the senses, but rather on the spirit from God in man."
== == == ==
Perhaps an aberrant spin-off of wierwille’s gnostic tendencies is his partiality for antinomianism ("from the Greek: ἀντί, "against" + νόμος, "law") is any view which rejects laws or legalism and argues against moral, religious or social norms (Latin: mores), or is at least considered to do so. The term has both religious and secular meanings.")...
wierwille’s logic to justify doing anything – even the most unconscionable act was often expressed publicly by saying stuff along the lines of “a person can so renew their mind that something is not sin” or “the love of God thinketh no evil” or “unto the pure all things are pure.”...He is tipping his hand here - alluding to his attitude about sexually molesting women (which translates to - it was no big deal to him so victims should just get over it)...truly, the greatest “secret knowledge” in way-world was how morally depraved he was...These nifty little phrases - along with teachings like The Christian Family & Sex class - helped lay the groundwork to spring his trap on unsuspecting women.
perhaps the delusion of having a superior knowledge afforded wierwille the freedom to do whatever he wanted to do...plagiarizing like it was going out of style...drugging and sexually molesting women... ...sadly the truth of the matter is that - depending on how much followers bought into wierwille’s delusion, it was almost like handing him a blank check where he could decide how much to exploit them.
Edited by T-Bone revision twisting = a literary snow job
1st century Christians were never centrally-controlled nor organized. twi bore no resemblance to 1st century Christianity except where twi CLAIMED they did. But all the claims don't mean reality matches a claim. The 1st century Christians probably didn't have access to the entire New Testament ANYWHERE. All documents had to be hand-copied. With no printing press and no scanners and PDFs, that was a laborious process and few copies circulated for the 1st century AD (certainly relative to now.)
So, twi has NEVER had "The Word as it was known in the 1st Century." because vpw NEVER had "The Word as it was known in the 1st Century."
vpw might have known that when he phrased the promise he was supposedly given, but he skipped over "Church history". So, he was likely to make such a mistake where God Almighty would not.
Probably not the place for this, but I've started to study church history lately and have found it very interesting. As a result, I've been growing more interested in the Orthodox Churches.
Gnosticism is from the Greek and means " having knowledge" and “is a collection of ancient religious ideas and systems which originated in the first century AD among early Christian and Jewish sects. These various groups emphasized personal spiritual knowledge (gnosis) overorthodox teachings, traditions, and ecclesiastical authority.”
Cult mentality from Wierwille dismissed "world wisdom" but there's SO much to know beyond what the cultist wanted us to explore.
I think of Proverbs 2:1-5
His cult mentality was so limiting and insecure, IMO. Limiting GOD, for sure.
As I've shared in other threads on GSC, read classic literature. It can help expand your imagination which can greatly enhance your understanding and wisdom of people, how they (we) can enhance each other's lives AND our understanding of God.
The Apostle Paul wasn't afraid to engage with people in the realm of "world wisdom."
Btw, what's the Body of Christ analogy all about if not for understanding how we interact and enhance each other's lives?
VPW wouldn't know church history if it hit him like a steamroller.
What year did he start teaching PFAL - I mean, before the recording of that dreadful video class. When did he steal it from Stiles and start teaching it as his own? Was that 1942 or somewhat later?
You know, what attracted me to PFAL was (1) the WoW who witnessed to me could show me Bible verses to support what he said and (2) when he prayed, things happened. They really did, things that just "shouldn't have." He loved and believed God. Unfortunately that had become tangled in TWI baggage.
I'd been reading in Acts and had wondered to myself, "These people had power, they prayed and things happened; they asked, and amazing things took place. What happened to that power? Why isn't it still here? Why don't I see that nowadays? When did it all stop happening?" And then I met this WoW. And the rest is history.
IIRC, it was around 1953 that he encountered both Leonard's class and Stiles' book (and Leonard and Stiles.) Yes, a decade after that, with him showing no real success in his ministry- at least as HE measured success. Once he encountered Leonard's class and Stiles' book, that changed. He taught a class identical to Leonard's and printed a book identical to Stiles', with later versions of each actually adding changes. What vpw taught was based almost entirely on a mix of what other people taught first- Leonard, Stiles, Bullinger, Kenyon....
Yes, his stealing from Leonard and Stiles was pretty prompt. He turned around within months of exposure to each and made their clones.
Every now and again, someone still claims that pfal and twi were special. Their reason for this is the claim that vpw was special. Their reason for this is the 1942 promise. vpw claimed he received a promise from God Almighty in 1942, and he used this claim to justify thinking of "his" books and classes to akin to the Bible itself.
The supposition that pfal was of significant long-term benefit hangs primarily on the alleged "1942 promise." That promise, as stated by vpw, was that God spoke audibly to vpw, and promised that God Almighty would teach vpw God's Word ;like it hadn't been known since the first century (AD) if vpw would teach it to others. vpw supposedly asked God to confirm this by a miraculous snowstorm.
(snip)
On 4/29/2020 at 2:55 AM, WordWolf said:
(Snip)
C) The alleged promise was based on ignorance.
twi's system shares a trait with the Mikean system- they're both Gnostic systems based on secret knowledge. The twi system-which was vpw's system, set up by him and used by him all the time- was that study of the verses was the key to God (plus the "Law of Believing"),. So, the more you study the verses, the more "godly" you can become, especially if you study it the twi way. We've all seen far too many horror stories of twi "masters" who partly memorized vpw/twi materials and were bigger schmucks if anything. Geer spent hours going over vpw's teachings in between drugging women for vpw to rape and preparing to throw himself over vpw as a human shield if anyone tried to shoot him.
(snip)
In retrospect – I’ve often peered through the fog of love-bombing, bait-and-switch tactics, being managed by fear and guilt, and all the other methods TWI used - and still uses - to ensnare and retain followers. For me the one lie that stands out above all others is the lie that facilitated more deceptions; it was the lie that God audibly spoke to wierwille and promised to teach him “The Word”.
That was perhaps at the core of my belief system – and like the tough central part of some fruit, it contained the seeds for a variety of strains (other lies) that hide or distort the truth – one of which is self-deception. At first, being young and naïve I fell for wierwille’s lie hook, line, and sinker. I was totally fooled by wierwille.
But as time went on and the reality of life experiences continued to threaten the validity of my belief system – self-deception probably took over at some point. That’s when I got in the habit of fooling myself. wierwille’s charisma and mishmash of plagiarism, fundamentalism, and magical thinking might get you started down the rabbit hole but in the long run all that can almost take on a life of its own in our minds – if we do not have enough courage to acknowledge reality, expose the lies and deal with the consequences…so I’d rationalize that something didn’t work out for me because of my lack of believing…If I found myself questioning something wierwille taught or doubting his persona I’d squelch that thought as me just going by my five senses…
Fooling yourself can only go so far…I tend to think that if something is not based on reality it will eventually run out of steam…For 12 years I invested so much time, money and energy into TWI and yet I had so little to show for all my hard work and efforts…and even more frustrating than that was having no real sense of fulfillment. All that altruistic and heavenly rewards bull$hit I bought into – of helping others by getting them to take the PFAL class (getting them started on the great hamster wheel journey), of giving my all for the ministry – it all started to sound so hollow. Even the issue of the way corps program’s use of sleep deprivation as part of the indoctrination process was side-stepped by Craig or corps coordinators by saying “you can sleep all you want when you’re in heaven.”
WordWolf mentioned Gnosticism. One of the most disturbing aspects of TWI’s brand of Gnosticism was wierwille’s extreme distortions of the teachings of Paul on the conflict between flesh and spirit. From what I’ve read, in the ancient world Gnosticism had somewhat of a dualistic philosophy – that basically the mind and the body were two radically different things. Some adherents of Gnosticism branched off into asceticism while others got into libertinism. (see Wikipedia - GnosticismCarpocrates and libertinism in the Bible -- also refer to my previous post about antinomianism ) Basically all the branches taught that matter (or “the flesh”) was evil and impossible to salvage…so it’s not that far-fetched to see that the next logical step might be to think that if the flesh is totally incorrigible then why even bother trying to correct or reform it.
I think wierwille latched onto the libertine flavor of Gnosticism – which tends to water-down boundaries, reject authority and ignore the ethics of social mores. It began with wierwille’s teaching of all sin is the same before God, that there are no degrees of sin. However Scripture does indicate that all sin is not equal if you look at the consequences to self and others as well as the appropriate punishment meted out – see Matthew 11: 20-24Luke 12: 47, 48John 19:11 . “Sin” became somewhat of an antiquated word in TWI – and in its place “broken fellowship” was used. This tends to blunt the seriousness of sin. “broken fellowship” softens the idea of a serious offense against God Almighty and having such a lackadaisical attitude may never lead one to godly sorrow and repent from some sinful behavior…so to summarize wierwille theology on sin: sins of the flesh – no big deal…besides the flesh is something you can’t save anyway – so party on… ...now putting this altogether about the New Knoxville Gnostic consider the following.
I remember when wierwille showed his favorite doggie-porn video to our family corps – afterwards his words to those who were shocked, stunned, embarrassed and offended were “I’ve so renewed my mind that stuff like this doesn’t bother me.” One of wierwille’s go-to verses that reflected his self-deceptive rationalization of bad behavior was Romans 14:22 “Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.” However, if you look at the context of Romans 14 , you will see it’s in reference to religious ceremonies, holidays and rituals – and that a mature strong Christian should not carelessly flaunt their liberty in those areas since it might cause a weak believer to stumble…it does NOT grant cult leaders license to use the Bible to cloak their hypocrisy and do things like drug and then sexually molest women – there’s lots of threads on Grease Spot about that.
So what’s the greatest secret in way-world today? That wierwille pulled off a big snow job on followers. But that’s no secret on Grease Spot.
I recall hearing from VP that God also told him if the Weirwille family didn’t stand on the word, the ministry would fail after he was gone. Did anyone else remember this?
I recall hearing from VP that God also told him if the Weirwille family didn’t stand on the word, the ministry would fail after he was gone. Did anyone else remember this?
I recall hearing from VP that God also told him if the Weirwille family didn’t stand on the word, the ministry would fail after he was gone. Did anyone else remember this?
In my first year in-residence in the 13th Corps, we saw the video called "A Day with the Wierwilles." He stated this in the film. I later read that Don Wierwille did not agree with that statement.
Such a frikkin ego trip, to say that. Though I don't remember it as "the ministry would fail" but more along the lines that "the word of God would be lost" or some such nonsense. Too long ago to be sure.
When I heard whatever it was, it was a "Whaaaattttt?" moment - a red flag, really, but one of many I ignored. Immediately forgot about.
But then, I had decent, giving, Christian parents as role models. My parents weren't denominational - dad went to the Anglican church, mum to the Methodist (when she could manage to). I couldn't see either of them losing their faith or their love for God. And dad didn't, to the end of his life; and Mum now 91 just gets stronger in her faith.
The "1942 Promise" wasn't something I thought a lot about back when I was involved. In fact, I signed up and paid for PFAL without knowing anything about Wierwille. I had attended a few twigs with my cousin, who had a crush on the Twig Leader and was impressed with how the people in the twig had (or at least seemed to have) answers based on the Bible. I had been told that a guy named Wierwille, who was from Ohio, would be the class teacher. I was also told that the class instructor was a guy named Jerry and it would be held in Flushing. So I thought that Jerry Wierwille from Ohio would be teaching this class in Flushing. (This was when they were calling the class facilitator or coordinator "the instructor - kind of confusing). It was at a class orientation a few days before Session One when I discovered that they were two separate people.
Even after graduating from PFAL there was a mostly local focus. I had no idea that I was involved in a large group until I agreed to go to Ohio for the ROA.
I don't recall ever given the "audible voice" or the snow or the "promise" much thought. I was more impressed with Wierwille's claim to have done all the research that he said he had done. I came from a church background, but one that was more concerned about hierarchy and ritual than anything resembling study of the Bible, so even the faux-research that went on in TWI was more than I had ever encountered
When victor's god spoke audibly to him, was that revelation or something else? Is natural man speech from god different from revelation? Or is natural, audible speech from god a form of revelation?
If it was revelation, and victor had not yet been carnally trained in the man-made mechanics of SIT, then SIT is not a prerequisite for revelation.
If it was NOT revelation, and victor had not yet been carnally trained in the man-made mechanics of SIT, then SIT is not required to hear from god with your natural man five senses.
** An argument for the veracity of the 1942 promise is not what I'm after. The bullsh¡t of that story has already been revealed to me - the second time established it.
Since it's beyond any REASONABLE doubt that the supposed "1942 promise" was invented by vpw out of whole cloth, and was never actually given vpw by God Almighty, it should be obvious- beyond any REASONABLE doubt- that the entire construction that has been built on it was built on sand. That construction is the delusion there was anything special about vpw's teachings, books, tapes, etc.
vpw's many faults- the rapes, the druggings, the grand larceny (plagiarism over $1000, in the US, is grand larceny), the chronic alcoholism, the chain-smoking, the sudden angry tirades- all of those are supposedly not really an issue because- if the 1942 promise was real- then they would be secondary to God Almighty's Revelation. SINCE the 1942 promise was invented- and Mrs W herself said it was first told to the early corps, and that's no earlier than 1970- then all the excuses remain more obviously excuses. With many Bible verses condeming them- verses against drunkenness, wrath, gluttony, theft- one who actually cares what God Almighty says should have little problem seeing how vpw stacked up against warnings in Scripture.
The alleged "reasoning" is all circular. With the 1942 promise SUPPOSED to be true- and a steadfast refusal to look at all the obvious information exposing it as a lie- then all sorts of justifications of vpw are made, all sorts of excuses for vpw are made. Yes, God condemned all that, but since vpw was so special, he gets a special dispensation for that, so he can be excused all sorts of misbehaviors, whether misdemeanors, felonies, or just plain sins. If one BLINDLY CLINGS to the delusion that the 1942 promise was a real thing, and not a poorly-phrased hoax, then all the SENSIBLE discussions will fail to convince. For everyone else, it's all obvious.
So, elaborate rationalizations surround vpw.
First, he becomes a remarkable person through his entire life. The reality is that he was a kid who skipped his chores around the farm, and even by his own admission he was poor at school. He was a bully and a showoff, and he considered business or music as possible careers before settling on the Bible. His own father said it was a bad choice, since he was a lazy kid all his life and the congregation needed better than laziness. He had to get special permission to graduate high school due to poor grades- which really was a "work" issue not choice at that point. A different set of letters convinced NYU that vpw was ready to be a student there immediately. He coasts along, plagiarizing all along the way, until he meets Stiles and Leonard, and rips off Stiles' book and Leonard's class.
Once a devout vpw worshipper, however, is done with him- all due to dogmatic insistence the 1942 promise was a real thing and not a badly-written lie, he becomes superhuman, "overgifted."
One of the moving targets is, obviously, what WAS the supposed 1942 Promise?
I think most of us would agree, if God Almighty, The Creator of The Heavens and The Earth, were to communicate audibly to us with a specific, personal message, that we would find that singularly important in our lives-
and obviously would remember all of it in exacting detail.
With the supposed 1942 Promise, however, vpw can never seem to keep the specifics CONSISTENT. Specifics of the promise change, his response changes, the supposed miracle changes......
Here was vpw, supposedly expounding on it in 1965, SNT 214, "Selling Plurality" (aka "Light Began to Dawn.")
"And so, all of this stuff began to build. And so finally, as I kept praying, I just said to the Father, I said "Father, teach me the Word--teach me the Word." And one night, something happened, which to me is the greatest thing I don't--I see only one experience that perhaps is greater than this in the Bible, and that's the Apostle Paul's experience on the road to Damascus. Outside of that, I see nothing in the Word that equals how God revealed Himself to me and talked to me and told me as plain as day: "That if I would study the Word, He would teach me the Word like He had not been able to teach it to anybody since the first generation." And of course at that time I thought, "Now that's a dandy!" "Boy, if I learned this Word of God, everybody'll listen to me, the whole church will be blessed. My denomination will grow by leaps and bounds because we'll have the Word of God."
And I thought that was terrific! But during the process of that revelation--and I can't tell it all to you because we're already closing off; but during the process of it, I said: "Father, how will I know that this is You and that You'll really teach it to me?" Because I had worked the Word in commentaries and the rest of it and I couldn't understand it--couldn't get it to fit. It happened to be bright sunshine like today--like it's been today and yesterday--what we people refer to, I guess as "Indian Summer"--beautiful day. And the sun was shining brightly; it was in the Fall of the year--gorgeous! And there wasn't a cloud in the sky. And just on the inside of me it seemed to say, "Well, just say to the Father, Well, if--if it'll just snow--right now, you'll just know that this is God talking to you." But, you see I'd never had much experience with God talking to me, and this business of He saying to me, just as audibly as I'm speaking to you, that He'd teach me the Word if I'd teach it, sort of shook me.
I'd been expecting to hear from heaven for a long time, but I hadn't heard that way before, you know. Ah, my ears were perhaps clogged up, since that time I've heard a lot of things--from Him. But, then I said, "Lord, if this is really true, I'd like to see it snow." And I opened my eyes--must not have been over three seconds, and I was sitting in front of the window looking East, the sun was--ah, West. The sun was in the West and there wasn't a cloud in the sky 'cause I could see the whole area. I closed my eyes when God said to me that He would teach me the Word if I'd teach it. And I said, "Lord, to know that this is true, I'd like to see it snow." And I opened my eyes and it was pitch--almost pitch black outside and the snow was falling so thick, I have never seen it fall that thick since that day. "
"And so, all of this stuff began to build. And so finally, as I kept praying, I just said to the Father, I said "Father, teach me the Word--teach me the Word." And one night, something happened, which to me is the greatest thing I don't--I see only one experience that perhaps is greater than this in the Bible, and that's the Apostle Paul's experience on the road to Damascus. Outside of that, I see nothing in the Word that equals how God revealed Himself to me and talked to me and told me as plain as day: "That if I would study the Word, He would teach me the Word like He had not been able to teach it to anybody since the first generation." And of course at that time I thought, "Now that's a dandy!" "Boy, if I learned this Word of God, everybody'll listen to me, the whole church will be blessed. My denomination will grow by leaps and bounds because we'll have the Word of God."
And I thought that was terrific! Butduring the process of that revelation--and I can't tell it all to you because we're already closing off; but during the process of it, I said: "Father, how will I know that this is You and that You'll really teach it to me?" Because I had worked the Word in commentaries and the rest of it and I couldn't understand it--couldn't get it to fit. It happened to be bright sunshine like today--like it's been today and yesterday--what we people refer to, I guess as "Indian Summer"--beautiful day. And the sun was shining brightly; it was in the Fall of the year--gorgeous! And there wasn't a cloud in the sky. And just on the inside of me it seemed to say, "Well, just say to the Father, Well, if--if it'll just snow--right now, you'll just know that this is God talking to you." But, you see I'd never had much experience with God talking to me, and this business of He saying to me, just as audibly as I'm speaking to you, that He'd teach me the Word if I'd teach it, sort of shook me.
I'd been expecting to hear from heaven for a long time, but I hadn't heard that way before, you know. Ah, my ears were perhaps clogged up, since that time I've heard a lot of things--from Him. But, then I said, "Lord, if this is really true, I'd like to see it snow." And I opened my eyes--must not have been over three seconds, and I was sitting in front of the window looking East, the sun was--ah, West. The sun was in the West and there wasn't a cloud in the sky 'cause I could see the whole area. I closed my eyes when God said to me that He would teach me the Word if I'd teach it. And I said, "Lord, to know that this is true, I'd like to see it snow." And I opened my eyes and it was pitch--almost pitch black outside and the snow was falling so thick, I have never seen it fall that thick since that day. "
========================================
-So, here's another phrasing of the 1942 Promise. This one leaves out the "IF I WOULD TEACH IT TO OTHERS" part.
-As has been mentioned before, he said his very first thought was that now "EVERYONE WOULD LISTEN TO ME". Interesting priority there when hearing from God Almighty.
-In this account, right when he heard, he asked for the snowstorm- in another account it wasn't the same day.
-Here the snow is BLACK. In his first 2 accounts, the snow was BLACK. In later accounts it was WHITE- as if he found out what color should actually have appeared and his account changed to match it. He didn't mistake WHITE for BLACK.
-Here he described the moment's weather as "INDIAN SUMMER." This doesn't contradict HIS accounts, but diehard vpw disciples claim that the weather was colder and a freak BLIZZARD would have been likely. vpw disagrees with them, but what else is new? Secret doctrines of twi don't get traction. One frequently has to completely discard what vpw himself says in order to believe that vpw, who set himself forth as some great one.
It fascinates me that Mrs W said he told NOBODY of this until the early Corps. That would have been several years after the supposed date for this tape. I believe her over proven liars.
I think most of us would agree, if God Almighty, The Creator of The Heavens and The Earth, were to communicate audibly to us with a specific, personal message, that we would find that singularly important in our lives-
and obviously would remember all of it in exacting detail.
I'd probably ask he/she/it to wait until I got a pen and paper so I could write it down.
IIRC, it was around 1953 that he encountered both Leonard's class and Stiles' book (and Leonard and Stiles.) Yes, a decade after that, with him showing no real success in his ministry- at least as HE measured success. Once he encountered Leonard's class and Stiles' book, that changed. He taught a class identical to Leonard's and printed a book identical to Stiles', with later versions of each actually adding changes. What vpw taught was based almost entirely on a mix of what other people taught first- Leonard, Stiles, Bullinger, Kenyon....
Yes, his stealing from Leonard and Stiles was pretty prompt. He turned around within months of exposure to each and made their clones.
You see God brought Leonard and Stiles to VP so he could “collect” their material and save hundreds of tens of souls from not having their need and want parallel being outside of a cult. And not knowing they should jump immediately to attention when in the presence of these spiritual giants.
Supposedly, God Almighty promised He would teach like it hadn't been known since the 1st century AD. If this were true, there would be a complete disconnect with what was being taught and known elsewhere in 1942 EVERYWHERE and what vpw later taught (because we know he taught others.) However, even those who idolize vpw agree that the material he taught was already taught by others. A paper trail can be traced for virtually all the twi material vpw taught. vpw took Leonard's class, and a few months later, taught 100% of the same material. vpw bought Stiles' book, then typed up a book with the contents- later adding the contents of books by Bullinger to flesh it out more. And so on. So, either God Almighty lied when giving this promise, someone else claiming to be God lied and vpw couldn't tell the difference between a lying spirit and God Almighty, or vpw lied and nobody promised him at all.
C) The alleged promise was based on ignorance.
twi's system shares a trait with the Mikean system- they're both Gnostic systems based on secret knowledge. The twi system-which was vpw's system, set up by him and used by him all the time- was that study of the verses was the key to God (plus the "Law of Believing"),. So, the more you study the verses, the more "godly" you can become, especially if you study it the twi way. We've all seen far too many horror stories of twi "masters" who partly memorized vpw/twi materials and were bigger schmucks if anything. Geer spent hours going over vpw's teachings in between drugging women for vpw to rape and preparing to throw himself over vpw as a human shield if anyone tried to shoot him.
But, let's expose the IGNORANCE in the alleged "promise."
How DID the 1st century Christian church know God's Word?
They knew the Torah/Old Testament. They knew the SPOKEN word, They knew The Word BY EXPERIENCE AND POWER. Think about it. They were getting converts left and right while being a disciple was ILLEGAL and punished by imprisonment, murder, or both. They got LOTS of converts with that going on. No amount of charismatic demagoguery can make up for the risk of being killed or imprisoned. You might get a few disaffected outsiders. Saul of Tarsus joined them - a former persecutor and murderer of Christians (he didn't put his hand on the knife, but he ordered it done.) Did the Greeks hear good speeches then run out and conclude that their gods walked among them and prepared to offer blood sacrifices? They SAW something. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. However, provide the extraordinary proof, and the claims stop looking extraordinary-at least in comparison to the proof.
The 1st century Christians preached-but were known because they had power and could deliver where they spoke. Lots of people preached and didn't get significant converts. Theirs was a pragmatic, direct, power-based ministry. twi was never that. They were study-based, and TALKED ABOUT power lots of times, then considered "Kojacking" a significant witness of "power." 1st century Christians were never centrally-controlled nor organized. twi bore no resemblance to 1st century Christianity except where twi CLAIMED they did. But all the claims don't mean reality matches a claim. The 1st century Christians probably didn't have access to the entire New Testament ANYWHERE. All documents had to be hand-copied. With no printing press and no scanners and PDFs, that was a laborious process and few copies circulated for the 1st century AD (certainly relative to now.)
So, twi has NEVER had "The Word as it was known in the 1st Century." because vpw NEVER had "The Word as it was known in the 1st Century."
vpw might have known that when he phrased the promise he was supposedly given, but he skipped over "Church history". So, he was likely to make such a mistake where God Almighty would not.
vpw made up the alleged 1942 promise. and it's easy to show all the errors. There was no such promise. There's no real, sensible reason to laud vpw or "his" books. They don't comrpise "revelation."
Wait, if one devil spirit gave him the revelation that he would teach him the Word like it hasn’t been known since the first century back in 1942, then between Drambuie, Kools and a bunch of other devil spirits the Word gets convoluted like it hasn’t been since the first century,
did the 1942 promise really get fulfilled after all?
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skyrider
When I got involved in the mid-70s.........the pitch was "This PFAL Class has the keys to understanding the Bible, God's Word. Dr. Wierwille has put this class together from decades of researching th
rubina
Probably not the place for this, but I've started to study church history lately and have found it very interesting. As a result, I've been growing more interested in the Orthodox Churches.
waysider
...but, first, burn all your bridges behind you.
WordWolf
B) The alleged promise was a lie.
Supposedly, God Almighty promised He would teach like it hadn't been known since the 1st century AD. If this were true, there would be a complete disconnect with what was being taught and known elsewhere in 1942 EVERYWHERE and what vpw later taught (because we know he taught others.) However, even those who idolize vpw agree that the material he taught was already taught by others. A paper trail can be traced for virtually all the twi material vpw taught. vpw took Leonard's class, and a few months later, taught 100% of the same material. vpw bought Stiles' book, then typed up a book with the contents- later adding the contents of books by Bullinger to flesh it out more. And so on. So, either God Almighty lied when giving this promise, someone else claiming to be God lied and vpw couldn't tell the difference between a lying spirit and God Almighty, or vpw lied and nobody promised him at all.
C) The alleged promise was based on ignorance.
twi's system shares a trait with the Mikean system- they're both Gnostic systems based on secret knowledge. The twi system-which was vpw's system, set up by him and used by him all the time- was that study of the verses was the key to God (plus the "Law of Believing"),. So, the more you study the verses, the more "godly" you can become, especially if you study it the twi way. We've all seen far too many horror stories of twi "masters" who partly memorized vpw/twi materials and were bigger schmucks if anything. Geer spent hours going over vpw's teachings in between drugging women for vpw to rape and preparing to throw himself over vpw as a human shield if anyone tried to shoot him.
But, let's expose the IGNORANCE in the alleged "promise."
How DID the 1st century Christian church know God's Word?
They knew the Torah/Old Testament. They knew the SPOKEN word, They knew The Word BY EXPERIENCE AND POWER. Think about it. They were getting converts left and right while being a disciple was ILLEGAL and punished by imprisonment, murder, or both. They got LOTS of converts with that going on. No amount of charismatic demagoguery can make up for the risk of being killed or imprisoned. You might get a few disaffected outsiders. Saul of Tarsus joined them - a former persecutor and murderer of Christians (he didn't put his hand on the knife, but he ordered it done.) Did the Greeks hear good speeches then run out and conclude that their gods walked among them and prepared to offer blood sacrifices? They SAW something. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. However, provide the extraordinary proof, and the claims stop looking extraordinary-at least in comparison to the proof.
The 1st century Christians preached-but were known because they had power and could deliver where they spoke. Lots of people preached and didn't get significant converts. Theirs was a pragmatic, direct, power-based ministry. twi was never that. They were study-based, and TALKED ABOUT power lots of times, then considered "Kojacking" a significant witness of "power." 1st century Christians were never centrally-controlled nor organized. twi bore no resemblance to 1st century Christianity except where twi CLAIMED they did. But all the claims don't mean reality matches a claim. The 1st century Christians probably didn't have access to the entire New Testament ANYWHERE. All documents had to be hand-copied. With no printing press and no scanners and PDFs, that was a laborious process and few copies circulated for the 1st century AD (certainly relative to now.)
So, twi has NEVER had "The Word as it was known in the 1st Century." because vpw NEVER had "The Word as it was known in the 1st Century."
vpw might have known that when he phrased the promise he was supposedly given, but he skipped over "Church history". So, he was likely to make such a mistake where God Almighty would not.
vpw made up the alleged 1942 promise. and it's easy to show all the errors. There was no such promise. There's no real, sensible reason to laud vpw or "his" books. They don't comrpise "revelation."
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Twinky
VPW wouldn't know church history if it hit him like a steamroller.
What year did he start teaching PFAL - I mean, before the recording of that dreadful video class. When did he steal it from Stiles and start teaching it as his own? Was that 1942 or somewhat later?
You know, what attracted me to PFAL was (1) the WoW who witnessed to me could show me Bible verses to support what he said and (2) when he prayed, things happened. They really did, things that just "shouldn't have." He loved and believed God. Unfortunately that had become tangled in TWI baggage.
I'd been reading in Acts and had wondered to myself, "These people had power, they prayed and things happened; they asked, and amazing things took place. What happened to that power? Why isn't it still here? Why don't I see that nowadays? When did it all stop happening?" And then I met this WoW. And the rest is history.
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skyrider
When I got involved in the mid-70s.........the pitch was "This PFAL Class has the keys to understanding the Bible, God's Word. Dr. Wierwille has put this class together from decades of researching the Scriptures to help anybody and everyone who wants to receive holy spirit into manifestation and see the power of God in their lives."
Like so many things.......the messaging was evolving. But back then, in my state........there was major emphasis on receiving holy spirit into manifestation so that I could have the power of God when I needed it most. Very little emphasis was put on wierwille's "1942 promise"..........but on the fact that wierwille had researched the Word of God and put it together like no one else. Obviously, in my youth and busy college life.......I never took the time to research wierwille's background and discover the blatant plagiarism nor did I take the time to uncover many, major spiritual truths and works of study by Kenyon, Jones, Bullinger, others, etc.
It seems to me.......1) Adulation for Dr. Wierwille was a subtle portion of the end result of the pfal class.
Then, when I went to the rock of ages............people would swoon when Dr. Wierwille was near.
The mystique of wierwille had engulfed twi. And, for many............it's still there!
By 1981-1984........bodyguards were positioned along the roa main stage when wierwille was present. Bodyguards? With ear pieces and covert communication amongst a team of security? Why? Oh, that's right.......the devil spirits were always trying to get to "the man of God." Evolution of Unbridled Adulation.......wierwille was treated like a pharaoh or something. An entourage of servants were at his beck and call.
Wierwille basked in the wayworld that he created. He smoked at the head dining room table whenever he wanted. He sipped his Drambuie at night owls or other late night corps meetings. One of those evening sessions, at the Emporia Campus.......wierwille abruptly stated that he wanted all the corps to come back in 20 minutes in their pajamas and bathrobes. And, we did!!!!! Of course, it was seen as "Wow, he just wants to have a casual, fireside get-together with his corps. How cool is that?"
To this day......there are people who idolize their memories of wierwille. When GSC discusses serial plagiarism or wierwille's sexual predation......there is vehement pushback from many defenders. Even lots and lots of corps refute these things discussed here at GSC that tarnish their memories of vpw. They never saw or heard this stuff during their corps experience. Martindale? Yes, but not wierwille. Wierwille was a smooth operator. He was the father figure to a displaced youth. Blind trust. He established an inner circle that were fiercely loyal and secret. And, if you couldn't be 1) loyal and 2) secret.......you couldn't be AROUND wierwille.
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T-Bone
Great posts, WordWolf !
Gnosticism is from the Greek and means " having knowledge" and “is a collection of ancient religious ideas and systems which originated in the first century AD among early Christian and Jewish sects. These various groups emphasized personal spiritual knowledge (gnosis) over orthodox teachings, traditions, and ecclesiastical authority.”
from Wikipedia Gnosticism
The prominence of a secret knowledge fits wierwille’s "teaching" platform to a T. His excitement and confidence in saying something like “now you can know, that you know, that you know” in PFAL comes to mind…
A well-documented version of his “secret-knowledge-snow-job" is on page 23 & 24 of "The Bible Tells Me So", in the chapter "Are You Limiting God?" wierwille says:
".. .We frequently limit God in ourselves by our wrong believing, by accepting the knowledge that comes to us through our senses. Our reason says, 'That just cannot be,' and so we confess the negative, when all the time His spirit within us is crying out, 'Sufficiency in everything.'
We have been so schooled to revere the knowledge that comes to us through our five senses that we fail to recognize the knowledge that comes from the higher realm, the spiritual where the Word of God, and not reason, has first place. Both realms or worlds are here: the natural world is factual; the spiritual world is true.
As there are four kingdoms in this world, and one supersedes the other: the plant kingdom, animal kingdom, kingdom of man and the Kingdom of God; so, there is a natural world and a supernatural or spiritual world.
The natural world and everything in it comes to the mind through or by way of the natural senses. The truths of the spiritual world are absolutely not dependent upon the senses, but rather on the spirit from God in man."
== == == ==
Perhaps an aberrant spin-off of wierwille’s gnostic tendencies is his partiality for antinomianism ("from the Greek: ἀντί, "against" + νόμος, "law") is any view which rejects laws or legalism and argues against moral, religious or social norms (Latin: mores), or is at least considered to do so. The term has both religious and secular meanings.")...
wierwille’s logic to justify doing anything – even the most unconscionable act was often expressed publicly by saying stuff along the lines of “a person can so renew their mind that something is not sin” or “the love of God thinketh no evil” or “unto the pure all things are pure.”...He is tipping his hand here - alluding to his attitude about sexually molesting women (which translates to - it was no big deal to him so victims should just get over it)...truly, the greatest “secret knowledge” in way-world was how morally depraved he was...These nifty little phrases - along with teachings like The Christian Family & Sex class - helped lay the groundwork to spring his trap on unsuspecting women.
perhaps the delusion of having a superior knowledge afforded wierwille the freedom to do whatever he wanted to do...plagiarizing like it was going out of style...drugging and sexually molesting women... ...sadly the truth of the matter is that - depending on how much followers bought into wierwille’s delusion, it was almost like handing him a blank check where he could decide how much to exploit them.
Edited by T-Bonerevision twisting = a literary snow job
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rubina
Probably not the place for this, but I've started to study church history lately and have found it very interesting. As a result, I've been growing more interested in the Orthodox Churches.
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Rocky
And great post T-Bone.
Cult mentality from Wierwille dismissed "world wisdom" but there's SO much to know beyond what the cultist wanted us to explore.
I think of Proverbs 2:1-5
His cult mentality was so limiting and insecure, IMO. Limiting GOD, for sure.
As I've shared in other threads on GSC, read classic literature. It can help expand your imagination which can greatly enhance your understanding and wisdom of people, how they (we) can enhance each other's lives AND our understanding of God.
The Apostle Paul wasn't afraid to engage with people in the realm of "world wisdom."
Btw, what's the Body of Christ analogy all about if not for understanding how we interact and enhance each other's lives?
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WordWolf
IIRC, it was around 1953 that he encountered both Leonard's class and Stiles' book (and Leonard and Stiles.) Yes, a decade after that, with him showing no real success in his ministry- at least as HE measured success. Once he encountered Leonard's class and Stiles' book, that changed. He taught a class identical to Leonard's and printed a book identical to Stiles', with later versions of each actually adding changes. What vpw taught was based almost entirely on a mix of what other people taught first- Leonard, Stiles, Bullinger, Kenyon....
Yes, his stealing from Leonard and Stiles was pretty prompt. He turned around within months of exposure to each and made their clones.
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T-Bone
In retrospect – I’ve often peered through the fog of love-bombing, bait-and-switch tactics, being managed by fear and guilt, and all the other methods TWI used - and still uses - to ensnare and retain followers. For me the one lie that stands out above all others is the lie that facilitated more deceptions; it was the lie that God audibly spoke to wierwille and promised to teach him “The Word”.
That was perhaps at the core of my belief system – and like the tough central part of some fruit, it contained the seeds for a variety of strains (other lies) that hide or distort the truth – one of which is self-deception. At first, being young and naïve I fell for wierwille’s lie hook, line, and sinker. I was totally fooled by wierwille.
But as time went on and the reality of life experiences continued to threaten the validity of my belief system – self-deception probably took over at some point. That’s when I got in the habit of fooling myself. wierwille’s charisma and mishmash of plagiarism, fundamentalism, and magical thinking might get you started down the rabbit hole but in the long run all that can almost take on a life of its own in our minds – if we do not have enough courage to acknowledge reality, expose the lies and deal with the consequences…so I’d rationalize that something didn’t work out for me because of my lack of believing…If I found myself questioning something wierwille taught or doubting his persona I’d squelch that thought as me just going by my five senses…
Fooling yourself can only go so far…I tend to think that if something is not based on reality it will eventually run out of steam…For 12 years I invested so much time, money and energy into TWI and yet I had so little to show for all my hard work and efforts…and even more frustrating than that was having no real sense of fulfillment. All that altruistic and heavenly rewards bull$hit I bought into – of helping others by getting them to take the PFAL class (getting them started on the great hamster wheel journey), of giving my all for the ministry – it all started to sound so hollow. Even the issue of the way corps program’s use of sleep deprivation as part of the indoctrination process was side-stepped by Craig or corps coordinators by saying “you can sleep all you want when you’re in heaven.”
WordWolf mentioned Gnosticism. One of the most disturbing aspects of TWI’s brand of Gnosticism was wierwille’s extreme distortions of the teachings of Paul on the conflict between flesh and spirit. From what I’ve read, in the ancient world Gnosticism had somewhat of a dualistic philosophy – that basically the mind and the body were two radically different things. Some adherents of Gnosticism branched off into asceticism while others got into libertinism. (see Wikipedia - Gnosticism Carpocrates and libertinism in the Bible -- also refer to my previous post about antinomianism ) Basically all the branches taught that matter (or “the flesh”) was evil and impossible to salvage…so it’s not that far-fetched to see that the next logical step might be to think that if the flesh is totally incorrigible then why even bother trying to correct or reform it.
I think wierwille latched onto the libertine flavor of Gnosticism – which tends to water-down boundaries, reject authority and ignore the ethics of social mores. It began with wierwille’s teaching of all sin is the same before God, that there are no degrees of sin. However Scripture does indicate that all sin is not equal if you look at the consequences to self and others as well as the appropriate punishment meted out – see Matthew 11: 20-24 Luke 12: 47, 48 John 19:11 . “Sin” became somewhat of an antiquated word in TWI – and in its place “broken fellowship” was used. This tends to blunt the seriousness of sin. “broken fellowship” softens the idea of a serious offense against God Almighty and having such a lackadaisical attitude may never lead one to godly sorrow and repent from some sinful behavior…so to summarize wierwille theology on sin: sins of the flesh – no big deal…besides the flesh is something you can’t save anyway – so party on… ...now putting this altogether about the New Knoxville Gnostic consider the following.
I remember when wierwille showed his favorite doggie-porn video to our family corps – afterwards his words to those who were shocked, stunned, embarrassed and offended were “I’ve so renewed my mind that stuff like this doesn’t bother me.” One of wierwille’s go-to verses that reflected his self-deceptive rationalization of bad behavior was Romans 14:22 “Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.” However, if you look at the context of Romans 14 , you will see it’s in reference to religious ceremonies, holidays and rituals – and that a mature strong Christian should not carelessly flaunt their liberty in those areas since it might cause a weak believer to stumble…it does NOT grant cult leaders license to use the Bible to cloak their hypocrisy and do things like drug and then sexually molest women – there’s lots of threads on Grease Spot about that.
So what’s the greatest secret in way-world today? That wierwille pulled off a big snow job on followers. But that’s no secret on Grease Spot.
Edited by T-Boneformatting and typos
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Twinky
The "1942 promise" didn't fail. No, not at all.
Because there was no 1942 promise to fail.
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waysider
By golly, I think you're catching on.
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Stayed Too Long
I recall hearing from VP that God also told him if the Weirwille family didn’t stand on the word, the ministry would fail after he was gone. Did anyone else remember this?
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Rocky
Yes
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DogLover
In my first year in-residence in the 13th Corps, we saw the video called "A Day with the Wierwilles." He stated this in the film. I later read that Don Wierwille did not agree with that statement.
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Twinky
Such a frikkin ego trip, to say that. Though I don't remember it as "the ministry would fail" but more along the lines that "the word of God would be lost" or some such nonsense. Too long ago to be sure.
When I heard whatever it was, it was a "Whaaaattttt?" moment - a red flag, really, but one of many I ignored. Immediately forgot about.
But then, I had decent, giving, Christian parents as role models. My parents weren't denominational - dad went to the Anglican church, mum to the Methodist (when she could manage to). I couldn't see either of them losing their faith or their love for God. And dad didn't, to the end of his life; and Mum now 91 just gets stronger in her faith.
r
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Oakspear
The "1942 Promise" wasn't something I thought a lot about back when I was involved. In fact, I signed up and paid for PFAL without knowing anything about Wierwille. I had attended a few twigs with my cousin, who had a crush on the Twig Leader and was impressed with how the people in the twig had (or at least seemed to have) answers based on the Bible. I had been told that a guy named Wierwille, who was from Ohio, would be the class teacher. I was also told that the class instructor was a guy named Jerry and it would be held in Flushing. So I thought that Jerry Wierwille from Ohio would be teaching this class in Flushing. (This was when they were calling the class facilitator or coordinator "the instructor - kind of confusing). It was at a class orientation a few days before Session One when I discovered that they were two separate people.
Even after graduating from PFAL there was a mostly local focus. I had no idea that I was involved in a large group until I agreed to go to Ohio for the ROA.
I don't recall ever given the "audible voice" or the snow or the "promise" much thought. I was more impressed with Wierwille's claim to have done all the research that he said he had done. I came from a church background, but one that was more concerned about hierarchy and ritual than anything resembling study of the Bible, so even the faux-research that went on in TWI was more than I had ever encountered
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Nathan_Jr
When victor's god spoke audibly to him, was that revelation or something else? Is natural man speech from god different from revelation? Or is natural, audible speech from god a form of revelation?
If it was revelation, and victor had not yet been carnally trained in the man-made mechanics of SIT, then SIT is not a prerequisite for revelation.
If it was NOT revelation, and victor had not yet been carnally trained in the man-made mechanics of SIT, then SIT is not required to hear from god with your natural man five senses.
** An argument for the veracity of the 1942 promise is not what I'm after. The bullsh¡t of that story has already been revealed to me - the second time established it.
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WordWolf
Since it's beyond any REASONABLE doubt that the supposed "1942 promise" was invented by vpw out of whole cloth, and was never actually given vpw by God Almighty, it should be obvious- beyond any REASONABLE doubt- that the entire construction that has been built on it was built on sand. That construction is the delusion there was anything special about vpw's teachings, books, tapes, etc.
vpw's many faults- the rapes, the druggings, the grand larceny (plagiarism over $1000, in the US, is grand larceny), the chronic alcoholism, the chain-smoking, the sudden angry tirades- all of those are supposedly not really an issue because- if the 1942 promise was real- then they would be secondary to God Almighty's Revelation. SINCE the 1942 promise was invented- and Mrs W herself said it was first told to the early corps, and that's no earlier than 1970- then all the excuses remain more obviously excuses. With many Bible verses condeming them- verses against drunkenness, wrath, gluttony, theft- one who actually cares what God Almighty says should have little problem seeing how vpw stacked up against warnings in Scripture.
The alleged "reasoning" is all circular. With the 1942 promise SUPPOSED to be true- and a steadfast refusal to look at all the obvious information exposing it as a lie- then all sorts of justifications of vpw are made, all sorts of excuses for vpw are made. Yes, God condemned all that, but since vpw was so special, he gets a special dispensation for that, so he can be excused all sorts of misbehaviors, whether misdemeanors, felonies, or just plain sins. If one BLINDLY CLINGS to the delusion that the 1942 promise was a real thing, and not a poorly-phrased hoax, then all the SENSIBLE discussions will fail to convince. For everyone else, it's all obvious.
So, elaborate rationalizations surround vpw.
First, he becomes a remarkable person through his entire life. The reality is that he was a kid who skipped his chores around the farm, and even by his own admission he was poor at school. He was a bully and a showoff, and he considered business or music as possible careers before settling on the Bible. His own father said it was a bad choice, since he was a lazy kid all his life and the congregation needed better than laziness. He had to get special permission to graduate high school due to poor grades- which really was a "work" issue not choice at that point. A different set of letters convinced NYU that vpw was ready to be a student there immediately. He coasts along, plagiarizing all along the way, until he meets Stiles and Leonard, and rips off Stiles' book and Leonard's class.
Once a devout vpw worshipper, however, is done with him- all due to dogmatic insistence the 1942 promise was a real thing and not a badly-written lie, he becomes superhuman, "overgifted."
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Twinky
The "promise" didn't fail - for the simple reason that it never existed.
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WordWolf
One of the moving targets is, obviously, what WAS the supposed 1942 Promise?
I think most of us would agree, if God Almighty, The Creator of The Heavens and The Earth, were to communicate audibly to us with a specific, personal message, that we would find that singularly important in our lives-
and obviously would remember all of it in exacting detail.
With the supposed 1942 Promise, however, vpw can never seem to keep the specifics CONSISTENT. Specifics of the promise change, his response changes, the supposed miracle changes......
Here was vpw, supposedly expounding on it in 1965, SNT 214, "Selling Plurality" (aka "Light Began to Dawn.")
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"And so, all of this stuff began to build. And so finally, as I kept praying, I just said to the Father, I said "Father, teach me the Word--teach me the Word." And one night, something happened, which to me is the greatest thing I don't--I see only one experience that perhaps is greater than this in the Bible, and that's the Apostle Paul's experience on the road toDamascus
And I thought that was terrific! But during the process of that revelation--and I can't tell it all to you because we're already closing off; but during the process of it, I said: "Father, how will I know that this is You and that You'll really teach it to me?" Because I had worked the Word in commentaries and the rest of it and I couldn't understand it--couldn't get it to fit. It happened to be bright sunshine like today--like it's been today and yesterday--what we people refer to, I guess as "Indian Summer"--beautiful day. And the sun was shining brightly; it was in the Fall of the year--gorgeous! And there wasn't a cloud in the sky. And just on the inside of me it seemed to say, "Well, just say to the Father, Well, if--if it'll just snow--right now, you'll just know that this is God talking to you." But, you see I'd never had much experience with God talking to me, and this business of He saying to me, just as audibly as I'm speaking to you, that He'd teach me the Word if I'd teach it, sort of shook me.
I'd been expecting to hear from heaven for a long time, but I hadn't heard that way before, you know. Ah, my ears were perhaps clogged up, since that time I've heard a lot of things--from Him. But, then I said, "Lord, if this is really true, I'd like to see it snow." And I opened my eyes--must not have been over three seconds, and I was sitting in front of the window looking East, the sun was--ah, West. The sun was in the West and there wasn't a cloud in the sky 'cause I could see the whole area. I closed my eyes when God said to me that He would teach me the Word if I'd teach it. And I said, "Lord, to know that this is true, I'd like to see it snow." And I opened my eyes and it was pitch--almost pitch black outside and the snow was falling so thick, I have never seen it fall that thick since that day. "
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WordWolf
"And so, all of this stuff began to build. And so finally, as I kept praying, I just said to the Father, I said "Father, teach me the Word--teach me the Word." And one night, something happened, which to me is the greatest thing I don't--I see only one experience that perhaps is greater than this in the Bible, and that's the Apostle Paul's experience on the road toDamascus
And I thought that was terrific! Butduring the process of that revelation--and I can't tell it all to you because we're already closing off; but during the process of it, I said: "Father, how will I know that this is You and that You'll really teach it to me?" Because I had worked the Word in commentaries and the rest of it and I couldn't understand it--couldn't get it to fit. It happened to be bright sunshine like today--like it's been today and yesterday--what we people refer to, I guess as "Indian Summer"--beautiful day. And the sun was shining brightly; it was in the Fall of the year--gorgeous! And there wasn't a cloud in the sky. And just on the inside of me it seemed to say, "Well, just say to the Father, Well, if--if it'll just snow--right now, you'll just know that this is God talking to you." But, you see I'd never had much experience with God talking to me, and this business of He saying to me, just as audibly as I'm speaking to you, that He'd teach me the Word if I'd teach it, sort of shook me.
I'd been expecting to hear from heaven for a long time, but I hadn't heard that way before, you know. Ah, my ears were perhaps clogged up, since that time I've heard a lot of things--from Him. But, then I said, "Lord, if this is really true, I'd like to see it snow." And I opened my eyes--must not have been over three seconds, and I was sitting in front of the window looking East, the sun was--ah, West. The sun was in the West and there wasn't a cloud in the sky 'cause I could see the whole area. I closed my eyes when God said to me that He would teach me the Word if I'd teach it. And I said, "Lord, to know that this is true, I'd like to see it snow." And I opened my eyes and it was pitch--almost pitch black outside and the snow was falling so thick, I have never seen it fall that thick since that day. "
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-So, here's another phrasing of the 1942 Promise. This one leaves out the "IF I WOULD TEACH IT TO OTHERS" part.
-As has been mentioned before, he said his very first thought was that now "EVERYONE WOULD LISTEN TO ME". Interesting priority there when hearing from God Almighty.
-In this account, right when he heard, he asked for the snowstorm- in another account it wasn't the same day.
-Here the snow is BLACK. In his first 2 accounts, the snow was BLACK. In later accounts it was WHITE- as if he found out what color should actually have appeared and his account changed to match it. He didn't mistake WHITE for BLACK.
-Here he described the moment's weather as "INDIAN SUMMER." This doesn't contradict HIS accounts, but diehard vpw disciples claim that the weather was colder and a freak BLIZZARD would have been likely. vpw disagrees with them, but what else is new? Secret doctrines of twi don't get traction. One frequently has to completely discard what vpw himself says in order to believe that vpw, who set himself forth as some great one.
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WordWolf
It fascinates me that Mrs W said he told NOBODY of this until the early Corps. That would have been several years after the supposed date for this tape. I believe her over proven liars.
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Rocky
I'd probably ask he/she/it to wait until I got a pen and paper so I could write it down.
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chockfull
You see God brought Leonard and Stiles to VP so he could “collect” their material and save hundreds of tens of souls from not having their need and want parallel being outside of a cult. And not knowing they should jump immediately to attention when in the presence of these spiritual giants.
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chockfull
Wait, if one devil spirit gave him the revelation that he would teach him the Word like it hasn’t been known since the first century back in 1942, then between Drambuie, Kools and a bunch of other devil spirits the Word gets convoluted like it hasn’t been since the first century,
did the 1942 promise really get fulfilled after all?
Inquiring minds want to know…
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