One of our newest posters seems to have jumped in at the deep end, and gotten a bit swamped. I'd like to pick one subject and take a smaller step, so we don't lose him (or anyone else.)
Before we discuss "did God change this rule in The Law?" we should discuss whether God changes rules at all, and if The Law is fully applicable to all Christians here and now.
So, do Christians need to follow all of the Mosaic Law? Are all the rules of before the crucifixion, resurrection, ascension and Pentecost still in full effect?
I'm expecting people to communicate clearly, so use as many verses as you need, and communicate as much as you need, but please try to keep from letting multisyllabic, sesquipedalian jargon (like I just used there) from taking over. Some people's eyes glaze over and you lose your audience.
On the other hand, please remember to put in some spaces and refrain from writing in huge text-blocks. Those can be PAINFUL to read and a lot of people won't bother to read them. So, remember to enter some paragraph breaks and have mercy on your readers.
Ok, people, l yield the microphone. Have at it! :)
"Before we discuss "did God change this rule in The Law?" we should discuss whether God changes rules at all,
- and if The Law is fully applicable to all Christians here and now."
My short answer:
part A - If there’s anything to dispensationalism, I would say yes – God does change “the rules”.
part B - depends on how you define "The Law" as to what is fully applicable to all Christians.
"So, do Christians need to follow all of the Mosaic Law?
- Are all the rules of before the crucifixion, resurrection, ascension and Pentecost still in full effect?"
My short answer:
part A - depends on how you define "all of the Mosaic Law"
part B - If there’s anything to “the gospel” (which may be shorthand for the far-reaching ramifications of the birth, life, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ) – then I would say no – not all “rules” before Christ are still in effect.
"Mosaic law"? What about pre-Mosaic laws? Abraham wasn't subject to Mosaic law. Neither was Noah. Presumably there were some laws that we don't yet know about, before they were encoded. The "chosen people" (tribes comprising Israel) had gone from the deserts of Palestine, inhabited Egypt with a different set of laws for some 400 years, then escaped back to the desert of Sinai. To the extent that the Exodus story is true, or a myth encapsulating truth, I'd think, actually, that Mosaic laws were an override or perhaps a codification to pre-existing, ie, pre-Egypt, law, perhaps also taking into account the Code of Hammurabi (=Persian) and other legal codes known to "Moses" and altering or softening some of those sets of laws.
The Mosaic laws were, as much as anything, a political statement to unify the 12 tribes, to make them distinct from Egyptians, Persians, Syrians and other groups/tribes in the middle east, as well as giving a common foundation for all the new nation to build upon. As well as being political, were these laws God-given? Well, why not? God works in leaders of all types to bring about the good of those who love God.
But needs change. And therefore laws change. And therefore, it might be said that God changes, or changes his mind.
I am simply copying the below text from a Christian web site that I did.
Matt 22:36-40
36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?" 37 Jesus said to him, " 'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." NKJV
And just who is our neighbor according to Jesus Christ? Is our neighbor only our fellow country men? Or is he or she only of the same race or religion that we are? Is our neighbor only some one that we go to church or school with? Jesus answers this question clearly in his parable written in Luke 10:25-37. When a person knowledgeable of the law asked Jesus,"what must I do to inherit eternal life?"Jesus answered him with a question relating to the man's own understanding,"What is written in the law?"In verse 27,he answered: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"28 "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."But the man had another question, and asked in verse 29,"And who is my neighbor?"
In replying, Jesus gave his explanation using a parable (figurative story), beginning in verse 30,
Luke 10:30-36
30 In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.36 " Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?" 37 The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him." Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise." ' NIV
So using today's language and scenario we have a lawyer asking Jesus Christ, "who is the neighbor that I should see as an example of godly love?" And Jesus tells him about a man that recently got beaten senseless with all his money stolen and then tossed on a curb inside a city near a church. Then the local church leaders and those with the lofty title reverend all pass him by and don't help him even though they see his condition and that he is literally dying. But then a common person from a neighboring city traveling through, who just happens to be from a family with a mixture of Jewish and Moslem family members as soon as he sees the man and his condition takes pity on him and does everything he can to help him. (If you know biblical history you know that the Samaritans of Jesus' day were a mixture of Assyrian and Jewish descendents.) The traveler immediately runs to the local drug store and buys bandages and cleaning and sterilization ointment. Then runs back to where the man is lying, thoroughly cleans all his wounds and wraps bandages with first aid antibiotic cream around them. Then lifts him into his car and drives him to the nearest hospital. Then stays with him until he gets medical help. Then tells the doctors and staff to do what ever it takes for this man to recover fully and that he will pay all the hospital and doctor bills.
Then Jesus asks the lawyer, "which of the people that I have just described was a good neighbor to the man who got robbed and beaten?" The legally knowledgeable lawyer then answered, "the traveler from out of town who had mercy on him." Then Jesus told the inquisitive lawyer, "that is the example that you should follow and in doing this you should push aside any race, ethnic or religious prejudice that you might have."
"that is the example that you should follow and in doing this you should push aside any race, ethnic or religious prejudice that you might have."
You might ask if God ever changed his mind about this - because originally when the Israelite nation was founded, it was itself supposed to be a beacon of God's love, to show the nations and thus draw all peoples from all nations to Him. And this group of people was only chosen because God's pre-Israelite plan for all to know Him had failed due to people's egocentricity and hardheartedness.
Genesis 11:
1Now the whole world had one language and a common form of speech. 2And as people journeyed eastward,a they found a plain in the land of Shinarb and settled there.
3And they said to one another, “Come, let us make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” So they used brick instead of stone, and tar instead of mortar.
4“Come,” they said, “let us build for ourselves a city with a tower that reaches to the heavens, that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of all the earth.”
5Then the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the sons of men were building. 6And the LORD said, “If they have begun to do this as one people speaking the same language, then nothing they devise will be beyond them. 7Come, let Us go down and confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another’s speech.”
8So the LORD scattered them from there over the face of all the earth, and they stopped building the city. 9That is why it is called Babel,c for there the LORD confused the language of the whole world, and from that place the LORD scattered them over the face of all the earth.
God's plan had been for all to know him, as in the beginning with Adam and Eve. But people's egos got in the way, right from the beginning, and going forward even to today.
You could say, He changed his mind and scattered the tower-builders (and thus, the nations); then (maybe) changed His mind back (Plan C, D, or whatever) - resumed the original plan - when establishing Israel. But Israel was itself only a "temporary measure" because God's plan (1 Tim 2:4) has always been for"allmen to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
You might ask if God ever changed his mind about this - because originally when the Israelite nation was founded, it was itself supposed to be a beacon of God's love, to show the nations and thus draw all peoples from all nations to Him. And this group of people was only chosen because God's pre-Israelite plan for all to know Him had failed due to people's egocentricity and hardheartedness.
Genesis 11:1-9
God's plan had been for all to know him, as in the beginning with Adam and Eve. But people's egos got in the way, right from the beginning, and going forward even to today.
You could say, He changed his mind and scattered the tower-builders (and thus, the nations); then (maybe) changed His mind back (Plan C, D, or whatever) - resumed the original plan - when establishing Israel. But Israel was itself only a "temporary measure" because God's plan (1 Tim 2:4) has always been for"allmen to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
I agree with you Twinky 100% regarding God's plan with major changes needed. And through Jesus Christ, God will get more and more people to change from hateful with big egos to loving while following Jesus Christ and his mindset. Perhaps the largest example of this is Saul who was also called Paul. People that are bad and evil will or would need to make a major change for, "allmen to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." . However, Paul who made a very large change from being hateful while perhaps being the main persecutor of the followers of Jesus Christ to being the main and most informative teacher of the New Testament saw the change that Jesus Christ could make with all of humanity. Even the ones like he was before he became a follower of Jesus Christ.
Quote
Acts 9:1-22
9 Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord's disciples. He went to the high priest 2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. 3 As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"
5 "Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked.
"I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied. 6 "Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."
7 The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. 8 Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. 9 For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything.
10 In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, "Ananias!"
"Yes, Lord," he answered.
11 The Lord told him, "Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. 12 In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight."
13 "Lord," Ananias answered, "I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your saints in Jerusalem. 14 And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name."
15 But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel. 16 I will show him how much he must suffer for my name."
17 Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord-Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here — has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit." 18 Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, 19 and after taking some food, he regained his strength.
Saul spent several days with the disciples in Damascus. 20 At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God. 21 All those who heard him were astonished and asked, "Isn't he the man who raised havoc in Jerusalem among those who call on this name? And hasn't he come here to take them as prisoners to the chief priests?" 22 Yet Saul grew more and more powerful and baffled the Jews living in Damascus by proving that Jesus is the Christ.
NIV
It is certainly more than just only trying to follow the Old Testament law. It is through following Jesus Christ.
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T-Bone
"Before we discuss "did God change this rule in The Law?" we should discuss whether God changes rules at all,
- and if The Law is fully applicable to all Christians here and now."
My short answer:
part A - If there’s anything to dispensationalism, I would say yes – God does change “the rules”.
part B - depends on how you define "The Law" as to what is fully applicable to all Christians.
"So, do Christians need to follow all of the Mosaic Law?
- Are all the rules of before the crucifixion, resurrection, ascension and Pentecost still in full effect?"
My short answer:
part A - depends on how you define "all of the Mosaic Law"
part B - If there’s anything to “the gospel” (which may be shorthand for the far-reaching ramifications of the birth, life, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ) – then I would say no – not all “rules” before Christ are still in effect.
Edited by T-Bonerevisionists abound
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Twinky
"Mosaic law"? What about pre-Mosaic laws? Abraham wasn't subject to Mosaic law. Neither was Noah. Presumably there were some laws that we don't yet know about, before they were encoded. The "chosen people" (tribes comprising Israel) had gone from the deserts of Palestine, inhabited Egypt with a different set of laws for some 400 years, then escaped back to the desert of Sinai. To the extent that the Exodus story is true, or a myth encapsulating truth, I'd think, actually, that Mosaic laws were an override or perhaps a codification to pre-existing, ie, pre-Egypt, law, perhaps also taking into account the Code of Hammurabi (=Persian) and other legal codes known to "Moses" and altering or softening some of those sets of laws.
The Mosaic laws were, as much as anything, a political statement to unify the 12 tribes, to make them distinct from Egyptians, Persians, Syrians and other groups/tribes in the middle east, as well as giving a common foundation for all the new nation to build upon. As well as being political, were these laws God-given? Well, why not? God works in leaders of all types to bring about the good of those who love God.
But needs change. And therefore laws change. And therefore, it might be said that God changes, or changes his mind.
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Mark Sanguinetti
I am simply copying the below text from a Christian web site that I did.
Matt 22:36-40
36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?" 37 Jesus said to him, " 'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." NKJV
And just who is our neighbor according to Jesus Christ? Is our neighbor only our fellow country men? Or is he or she only of the same race or religion that we are? Is our neighbor only some one that we go to church or school with? Jesus answers this question clearly in his parable written in Luke 10:25-37. When a person knowledgeable of the law asked Jesus, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" Jesus answered him with a question relating to the man's own understanding, "What is written in the law?" In verse 27, he answered: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"28 "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live." But the man had another question, and asked in verse 29, "And who is my neighbor?"
In replying, Jesus gave his explanation using a parable (figurative story), beginning in verse 30,
Luke 10:30-36
30 In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.36 " Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?" 37 The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him." Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise." ' NIV
So using today's language and scenario we have a lawyer asking Jesus Christ, "who is the neighbor that I should see as an example of godly love?" And Jesus tells him about a man that recently got beaten senseless with all his money stolen and then tossed on a curb inside a city near a church. Then the local church leaders and those with the lofty title reverend all pass him by and don't help him even though they see his condition and that he is literally dying. But then a common person from a neighboring city traveling through, who just happens to be from a family with a mixture of Jewish and Moslem family members as soon as he sees the man and his condition takes pity on him and does everything he can to help him. (If you know biblical history you know that the Samaritans of Jesus' day were a mixture of Assyrian and Jewish descendents.) The traveler immediately runs to the local drug store and buys bandages and cleaning and sterilization ointment. Then runs back to where the man is lying, thoroughly cleans all his wounds and wraps bandages with first aid antibiotic cream around them. Then lifts him into his car and drives him to the nearest hospital. Then stays with him until he gets medical help. Then tells the doctors and staff to do what ever it takes for this man to recover fully and that he will pay all the hospital and doctor bills.
Then Jesus asks the lawyer, "which of the people that I have just described was a good neighbor to the man who got robbed and beaten?" The legally knowledgeable lawyer then answered, "the traveler from out of town who had mercy on him." Then Jesus told the inquisitive lawyer, "that is the example that you should follow and in doing this you should push aside any race, ethnic or religious prejudice that you might have."
Edited by Mark SanguinettiLink to comment
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Twinky
You might ask if God ever changed his mind about this - because originally when the Israelite nation was founded, it was itself supposed to be a beacon of God's love, to show the nations and thus draw all peoples from all nations to Him. And this group of people was only chosen because God's pre-Israelite plan for all to know Him had failed due to people's egocentricity and hardheartedness.
Genesis 11:
1Now the whole world had one language and a common form of speech. 2And as people journeyed eastward,a they found a plain in the land of Shinarb and settled there.
3And they said to one another, “Come, let us make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” So they used brick instead of stone, and tar instead of mortar.
4“Come,” they said, “let us build for ourselves a city with a tower that reaches to the heavens, that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of all the earth.”
5Then the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the sons of men were building. 6And the LORD said, “If they have begun to do this as one people speaking the same language, then nothing they devise will be beyond them. 7Come, let Us go down and confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another’s speech.”
8So the LORD scattered them from there over the face of all the earth, and they stopped building the city. 9That is why it is called Babel,c for there the LORD confused the language of the whole world, and from that place the LORD scattered them over the face of all the earth.
God's plan had been for all to know him, as in the beginning with Adam and Eve. But people's egos got in the way, right from the beginning, and going forward even to today.
You could say, He changed his mind and scattered the tower-builders (and thus, the nations); then (maybe) changed His mind back (Plan C, D, or whatever) - resumed the original plan - when establishing Israel. But Israel was itself only a "temporary measure" because God's plan (1 Tim 2:4) has always been for "all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
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Mark Sanguinetti
I agree with you Twinky 100% regarding God's plan with major changes needed. And through Jesus Christ, God will get more and more people to change from hateful with big egos to loving while following Jesus Christ and his mindset. Perhaps the largest example of this is Saul who was also called Paul. People that are bad and evil will or would need to make a major change for, "all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." . However, Paul who made a very large change from being hateful while perhaps being the main persecutor of the followers of Jesus Christ to being the main and most informative teacher of the New Testament saw the change that Jesus Christ could make with all of humanity. Even the ones like he was before he became a follower of Jesus Christ.
It is certainly more than just only trying to follow the Old Testament law. It is through following Jesus Christ.
Edited by Mark SanguinettiLink to comment
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